Pregnancy WORSE Than War?! 300+ Body Count?! $1,000,000 To Date Her?! Andrew W! | Dating Talk #243

Date: 2025-05-19

Duration: 8h 55m

Guests

Brian Atlas

SShannon Davey >

NNatalie Stavola >

AAndrew Wilson >

GGabby (Michigan)>

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_02Gabby (Michigan)(guest)

SPEAKER_03Felicity(guest)

SPEAKER_04Natalie Stavola(guest)

SPEAKER_09Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_10Shannon Davey(guest)

SPEAKER_11Guidance(guest)

SPEAKER_13Joey(guest)

SPEAKER_14Wu (Cassie)(guest)

Key Moments

IntroAll guests introduced including Wu (8 languages, PhD linguistics)

Key MomentGuidance: engaged after 6-week courtship. 3 prior marriages. Shunned from JW.

Key MomentNatalie: 8-year sobriety anniversary today (cocaine/alcohol). 300+ body count.

Key MomentAndrew's infinite regress argument on trans identity: if partner has penis and you perform oral, by your definition that's gay

OtherAndrew Wilson departs to sleep before next day debate

Topics Discussed

Guest Introductions

Shannon, Guidance, Natalie, Joey, Gabby, Wu, Felicity, Andrew Wilson.

Octopus Water Incident

Water smells fishy. Brian blames Costco octopus contaminating fridge.

Body Count Discussion

Andrew's grimy dude multiplier. 10 ONS vs 10 failed LTRs trolley problem.

Bow Video and Submission

Brian shows ex bowing. Panel asked if they would bow. Wu: 3x/week max.

Minimum Income Round

Shannon $100-150K. Guidance $300K. Natalie $300K+. Joey $75K. Wu $36K/yr.

Transgender Identity Debate

Guidance: wrong to refuse trans people solely for being trans. Andrew's infinite regress on defining 'woman.'

Body Count Reveals

Felicity 2. Guidance 27. Shannon declined. Natalie 300+. Gabby 2.

Transcript

Page 9 of 10

Shannon Daveyhas that list, so that's good. So, Shannon, men are more privileged in society. or in society than women. Why is that? It's just how it's been for

Shannon Daveymost of our society and it hasn't really changed that much. I mean, it's it's slowly changing over time, but it just it hasn't really flipped that script in

Shannon Daveyour society. What what's like give me just one example of men's men having privilege. I mean men don't face as much

Shannon Daveylike essay as women do and they have just more opportunities to in in the business world usually advance in their careers

Brian Atlasdo they typically yes I mean also it's not clear to me if like when it comes to uh like when I when I think of privilege

Brian AtlasI tend to think of something How can I best put this? When I think of privilege, like it's something that's granted, right? Like

Brian Atlasuh I'm trying to think if there was there would be a like so for example, men are more likely to be victims of violent crime. Is it a privilege to is it a privilege

Brian Atlasthat women have that they're less likely to be victims of violent crime as compared to men? Would you say that's a female privilege? I mean I think that women do face a lot of violent crime in

Shannon Daveyour society as well. So I think it's just violent crime is the issue. Not as much it's a privilege for women because women still have to deal with it, right?

Shannon DaveyBut men also are essay. So but it's different because it's like for women part of the assaulting is because of their because they're women. They're women. So just to be clear, when bad

Brian Atlasthings happen to women, it's because they're women. And when bad things happen to men, I would say more specifically when it comes to essay, it's a way for men to basically like

Shannon Daveycontrol and have dominance over women, usually without their consent. So it is something that because you're a woman, you're more subjugated to than if you're

Brian Atlasa man, you have the privilege of usually not being Yeah. I mean, I don't want to really go down I don't want to go down a deep rabbit hole of like the essay topic. I was always confused though. And look, perhaps it's the case. Maybe

Brian Atlasthere's studies on it. I'd be curious to see them. This idea like I'm this idea that it's about power. Like maybe it is.

Brian AtlasBut to me, the thing that would would make the most sense is it's like just a piece of [ __ ] who's horny and wants to have sex. But like what gets them going?

Shannon DaveyLike what makes them horny? I think it's like the thrill of the power that they have over that other person, right? It's psychological a bit than just the like

Shannon Daveyphysical. Yeah. There could be like maybe they get off to like well what what if it's not about power? They get off to harming somebody. That is a power dynamic though because you're causing

Brian Atlasharm to someone. They're they're weaker than you in that instance. Yes. But in any case, uh you mentioned when I said that men are more likely to be victims of violent crime, you said, "Well, but

Brian Atlasso are women also are victims of violent crime, but they're not as likely to be victims of violent crime as men are." Wait, is essay not violent crime? Sorry. It's a component. Why? Yeah, I would say

Natalie Stavolait's Yeah, it falls under the umbrella. It sounds like it's not counted counted in that for some reason. Like essay isn't considered the violent crime, but the different violent crime. No, they counted in the statistics. And overall,

Brian Atlasmy understanding is overall, including all violent crimes, men are more likely to be victims of violent crime. Interesting. I' Yeah, the numbers that I

Brian Atlassaw were the other way, but I' I'd love to see that. Yeah, it's it it's pretty well established. You can look at crime statistics. Yeah, but that's why I wasn't sure if essay was in there.

Brian AtlasVictims of violent crime and or if they put that under DV. Other thing though is the the definition of grape for example in certain

Brian Atlasjurisdictions like men can't be victims of grape. That's awful. Like uh that's terrible. Yeah. If a woman grapes a man, you might not believe that that's

Brian Atlasactually possible. Definitely possible. But the actual definition of it, they don't consider a woman forcing herself onto a man. They wouldn't consider that grape. Do you know why they That's

Brian Atlasterrible. Well, I think it's just the specific definition. It's like there there's like a penetrative component to the crime. So, I suppose like a a man could grape

Brian Atlasunder the under that specific jurisdiction. A man could grape another man is my but even some of the definitions include the term like vagina for example. Yeah. So, maybe based on

Brian Atlasjurisdiction, but it it skews the data a little bit. But I I do want to I'm don't want to linger too long on that topic just cuz it's kind of uh never it's kind of a buzzkill but men are more privileged in society than Well, I'm

Guidancemoving on to Moon. Why is that Moon? Oh, uh definitely like in careers. Um careers. Okay. Even like with health. I mean we talked about the fact that women have periods. I mean, I know guys get prostate cancer and other things, too,

Guidancebut even just having the genitalia of a woman, we get ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, like just all kinds of benefits sometimes, you know, to being a man that

Gabby (Michigan)we women just don't have, you know. Okay. What about you? Um, I'm not too sure about like wage gaps and things like that. Doesn't exist, but see, I don't know anything

Gabby (Michigan)about it. But, um, I think it's more like for me. socially, I guess, like just social aspects benefit men more than women. Um, as well as just like

Gabby (Michigan)general hate towards them. And also the fact that there's like the overturning of Roie Wade, which is like kind of crappy. And then there's just other

Brian Atlasthings that are just very oppressive. Okay, there's a lot there. Um, I won't be able to make counter arguments for all Well, I could make counter arguments for all of them, but for the sake of

Brian Atlastime, I can't. Uh, it's not clear to me, at least with the the abortion argument that that you made, that that has anything to do with uh men being more privileged because males have no reproductive rights whatsoever. If the

Brian Atlaswoman wants to get the abortion, the man can't say anything about it. If the woman decides to keep the child, the man can't do anything about it. So, I mean, men have zero reproductive rights. Yeah. And I think that I mean it's unfair and

Gabby (Michigan)I think that's why it needs to be like when it comes to abortion it needs to be a like lengthy discussion between you and your partner where you guys really weigh the pros and cons and things like

Brian Atlasthat. Uh well, yeah, but you would you would agree that even if there was a lengthy conversation and the woman was leaning towards get the abortion and the man was leaning towards keep the child, there's nothing that the man could

Brian Atlasactually do to force her to keep the child. If she wanted the abortion, she can go get the abortion, assuming she's in a state where abortion is legal. Yeah, that

Wu (Cassie)part, right? Um what about you? Uh why are men more privileged in society than women? Why are you talking about why? Like how

Wu (Cassie)how rather in China employers would will still ask about your marriage status like at interviews. And like when I

Wu (Cassie)graduated from my bachelor, some of the boys from my class, they didn't have good grades at all, but they got really good jobs just because like for English

Wu (Cassie)major, if you're a boy, like they'll just take you because all others are were girls, but they want boys. H I can't I'm not really particularly

Brian Atlaswell-versed when it comes to like feminism in China or the the gender uh the gender specifics in China. Um I I I

Brian Atlasam aware that there there are certain uh sexist practices in China. uh you know, for example, I believe with the one child policy, uh there seemed to have

Brian Atlasbeen some preference towards uh male Yeah. uh boy boy babies. Uh but I'm just not well verssed enough in uh the the

Brian AtlasChinese um uh gender politics or whatever to really be able to address that adequately. But uh I'll just say this

Brian Atlasthough. What do you got? I'll just say this. I'm I'll just throw out my my favorite argument on this. All of women's collective

Brian Atlasgrievances just fall completely flat in the face of a singular sole male grievance and that's

Brian Atlaswar. And you can look at that as military conscription. I would even consider it within the purview of the volunteer men who volunteer. But forced military conscription, I

Brian Atlaswould argue and there's uh the the suffering that men have exclusively faced in wartime and in war

Brian Atlasuh cannot be understated. I would argue that if we're looking at amount of suffering Yeah. or amount of grievance.

Brian AtlasI don't think you can look at anything and tell me there's a singular female or even in totality of you put together all

Natalie Stavolaof women's grievances. Mhm. And they fall flat in the face of war and forced conscription. Wouldn't that be though? You guys are fighting other guys or fighting because I don't know some

Guidancedictator is doing some crazy stuff overseas. So I mean you're fighting other men, right? And women didn't tell you to do like that system is was set up by men. We didn't set up.

Brian AtlasSo, a couple other just to be clear, stop killing each other. Throughout history, there have been queens. Yeah. Currently, there are uh heads of state that are female that are involved in to

Brian Atlassome degree military conflicts. Um or I let me revise that a little bit. There are uh there are countries with uh

Brian Atlasfemale heads of state that are involved by proxy with certain wars and evens and anyways. But queens for example, they actually did a study. They looked at

Natalie Stavolakings versus queens and they actually found that queens were more likely to go to war than kings. Was that cuz people were going after them because they were female or was that studied at all? I'm

Brian Atlasjust curious. I don't know the specific I don't know the specifics of it, but my understanding of the study was is that the these monarchs, these queens, they

Brian Atlaswere more likely to go to uh I don't know if it was start a war. H I'll have to further look into that, but I believe it's they were more likely to start a war than kings. Yeah, I'm curious on it

Natalie Stavolacuz I'm wondering if it is that they're like, "Oh, there's a female head. H let's go after her. We can grab her land." And then she's having to defend. But no, there was but there was um what's the name of that one queen in um

Brian AtlasBloody Mary? Yeah, she had a lot. But I you made a point of like but it's men who are sending the men to war. Yeah. So like what would that why would that

Guidancematter? Like men are not this hive mind collective like and neither are women though. Yeah. I'm not saying that though. Well, you're saying like our our our collective grievances don't amount

Brian Atlasto the war thing. And I mean I maybe so but I guess how does that well so when I'm talking about collective grievances the difference here is so you've you're talking about something else. You're

Brian Atlassaying well who you're asking whose fault is that? Whose fault is that? That doesn't really relate to my statement as it relates to grievance

Brian Atlascomparison. So So you're saying y'all should be able to cry more than us because you have to go to war. Is that what it is? Uh I'm not saying men have to cry more.

Brian AtlasI'm saying if for example we're looking at if we're if we're looking at things through the l through the lens of uh

Brian Atlasoppression or hurt or damage or suffering uh or privilege or lack thereof then this specific thing I think

Brian Atlasis worse and has caused more suffering in the specific gender men in this case than all of women's collective grievances. So you add all the up. Oh,

Brian Atlaswe couldn't vote for a period of time and uh we couldn't uh what we we couldn't women couldn't vote. You uh the

Brian Atlasclaims about essay, the claims about um gender gap, the claims of whatever it is, add them all together, not as bad as all the men who have died or been forced

Shannon Daveyto go to war. I think it's Can I add to that though that okay obviously dying is the worst situation especially in war. However, think about the women who

Shannon Daveycollectively lost their husbands to war. They're grieving. Obviously dying is the worst situation but grieving that death having to raise the children and then having all of that collective stuff that

Shannon Daveyyou kind of just downplayed a bit. Uh it's it's there's a lot of there layers to a woman grieving. No, I'm saying that dying is a war thing. But okay, but then

Shannon Daveybut who's left to take care of when the men die? It's like the women who they've left behind and obviously like dying like I've said is the worst situation in

Shannon Daveywar. However, life does continue to go on after death. And who's there to have to Oh, I see what you're saying. Go ahead. Deal with the ramifications. It's the women who you already admitted have

Shannon Daveybeen through these the traumatic situations. And I'm not downplaying men's part in war is obviously completely traumatic. We see that. Um

Shannon Daveyit's just different types of trauma like women have to carry with them the trauma of having a husband who's died in war as well. Yeah. So is your position that uh I mean you didn't indicate it here. Do you think uh women are the primary

Shannon Daveyvictims of war? No. Because dying is obviously Okay. So you're saying men are the primary victims of war. But and I don't disagree with you. So I also wanted to just kind of recap in in saying that that I don't

Shannon Daveythink that it should really be taken as a issue of the sexes or genders. I think it should be taken that we collectively as men and women are actually basically

Shannon Daveyfighting against like the 1% the people who are in power who are causing wars to actually happen. Like we were saying kings and queens. We're turning it into a gender argument. But like we just

Shannon Daveysaid, both sexes, genders, whatever we want to call it, suffer immensely from war. So to be like, sure. Okay. But they're still disputing that. I mean,

Shannon Daveydeath is the ultimate suffering. So I'm not going to say that that's not true. However, women have to carry on life

Shannon Daveyafter death and that is a a terrible process of grieving and then having to take care of children that are still alive who actively don't have a parent

Brian Atlasin the home anymore. So, it's it's terrible all around. Yeah, it's all So, yes. So, I'll I'll engage there. So I think the f the where I would be where I

Brian Atlaswould begin with this is that you would you would also have to acknowledge that men have male relatives too. So that would be further not just female suffering when men die but also

Shannon Daveymale suffering when men die whether it's fathers, brothers, friends or sons. And I agree that those men usually have to step in and kind of take care of the children of the Yeah. in in the

Brian Atlascommunity. My next point would be though is that while I'll agree with you that uh men aren't the exclusive sufferers when it comes to war. Yeah, women also

Brian Atlassuffer, children suffer, boys and girls suffer when it comes to war. War, everybody suffers, right? But I think it's uh it's going to be a hard cell to tell me that when we're looking at

Brian Atlassomething that's gender specific, in this case, every single country in the world, I think except for maybe there might be some small one. I I'm not aware of or Israel where uh forced military

Brian Atlasconscription is exclusively male in all the other countries absent uh maybe one or two in any case it's uh it doesn't matter because of all the major

Gabby (Michigan)countries only men are subject to force military conscription do you have something or yeah actually um recently there's a villain post certain states you do have to sign up for uh women do

Brian Atlashave to sign up for drafts There's erroneous. It's that's erroneous. I'm not It's not true. It's It is It's opt in or it's Women can volunteer to join the military, but

Brian Atlasthere's no First off, it wouldn't be at the it wouldn't be at the state level that this would be be done. The selective service system is a federal system. So, it would be it would be done at the federal level. So, there's this

Brian Atlasidea that on the individual state level, some of the women can be drafted. It's just not true. And there's no bill. I I can't Maybe there's some dumb bill that's been introduced in a state

Shannon Daveylegislature. I can't imagine it's enforceable. Uh I don't I don't even believe that that's true, but it would be at the federal level. Oh, no. See, I think it's more of a class war situation than it is the actual like gender war

Shannon Daveythat we want to make it into. Because like we just said, men are suffering immensely from going to war. Women are suffering immensely from not having their husbands around in the home to care for the children. Everyone's

Shannon Daveysuffering and I think it's collectively because like usually the people suffering the most are the lower class cuz those are the ones who are getting drafted or deciding to go into the army. Okay.

Brian AtlasSo I want to finish making my point here. Okay. So I'm trying to remember recall exactly what Oh, okay. You were saying well the the wives and the the

Brian Atlasmothers and the the daughters they all suffer right when men die in war. Um, what would you think if I made the following argument

Brian Atlasthat in rebuttal to the pain that women experience when they're essay, I said, well, their brothers and their fathers

Brian Atlasand their boyfriends and their husbands suffer when women and I'm I'm using that to mis to redirect and misdirect from your claim about the suffering it causes

Brian Atlaswomen when they're essayed. And I say, "Yeah, but let's think about the men in their lives." You would find that objectionable, I'm sure. Well, they're the ones doing the essaying. Usually,

Shannon Daveythe brothers and the boyfriends, no, but men in general. So, it does hurt the the people in the women's lives, the men in the women's lives who are getting essayed. It does hurt them because it

Shannon Daveyhurts their reputation and also like they could say something to other men to try to help prevent these things. this I don't feel like you're actually contending with my argument. So I'll

Shannon Daveygive you a different example. Uh when women go through pregnancy, it's really hard for the husbands. And we I mean husbands have a a part in making a child. So it should be hard for

Shannon Daveythe husbands as well. Well, I don't think it should be, but uh yeah, I mean if your wife or the person who you are having a baby with is suffering, then like we were talking about way at the beginning of this conversation, you

Shannon Daveyshould have empathy for your partner. So if your partner is having a hard time, you then also would be having a hard time as well. Not as hard. If I said because of the frustrations or whatever

Brian Atlasthat men experience during women's pregnancy and I used it to try to dismiss your point about the suffering that women experience or the pain that women experience or the discomfort that women experience when it comes to pregnancy and childirth, you would find

Shannon Daveythis laughable. I mean to a certain degree because it's like physically happening to the woman where it's like more of a mental strain for a man or like financial strain. But you can't genuinely tell me that you

Brian Atlaswould say that the discomfort and pain that women experience during pregnancy and childirth is anywhere near comparable to the uh supposed uh

Brian Atlasfrustration or pain, mental pain that the man might feel. Uh cuz it could be, you know, seeing your wife giving birth and she's in physical pain. That could be distressing to a man, but you would

Brian Atlasnever say that that's anywhere near approaching the woman who's actually going through the child birth. You'd never say that it's anywhere approaching the level of pain or suffering she's

Brian Atlasgoing through. That's true. Okay. So, I think we're going to have to agree that the suffering that men experiences more is dwarfs the the look, just to be

Brian Atlasclear, if you lo lose uh if you're a woman and you lose uh a son or you lose a husband or you whatever it is, you lose a male figure in your life in war,

Brian Atlasthat's terrible. That's going to be an awful experience. That's that you're going to you're going to be grieving. That's going to be awful. But the thing is is that people can come back from grief. People come back from grief all

Brian Atlasthe time. People parents die, grandparents die, and people get back to their life. When you're dead, you're dead. It's final. It's over. Your life's

Shannon Daveyover. Yeah. I'm saying in regards to comparing women and men suffering, I would say

Shannon Daveyobviously dying is the worst situation. However, it is final. However, the person who is grieving that like I was saying, you have to raise potentially

Shannon Daveychildren alone now in a situation. So, it's an ongoing suffering on top of the suffering we already previously talked about where you were saying like women

Shannon Daveycouldn't vote, women didn't have as many rights. Like, it's adding trauma. I know that's a buzz word. What? Adding trauma? What do you mean? like women if

Brian Atlasthe husband dies and more. Yeah, that's traumatic. Yeah, I'm not disputing that it's going to be really bad if your significant other dies or your brother dies or whatever it is. But if you're

Shannon Daveytrying to compare the suffering between men and women, women's after that point like you die, you're done. Women is ongoing suffering. You're forgetting one important thing though is that the

Brian Atlassuffering men experiences that men experience in war is not strictly related to death. That's true. There is the PTSD of it. There's PTSD. these

Brian Atlasthere's the actual like in the [ __ ] you know, like if you look at historical wars for example, and if we're allowed to say that women's historical grievances are uh you know,

Brian Atlasif you bring up women often or feminists often bring up uh women not being able to vote, okay, so I'm going to bring up World War I, World War II. These were absolutely brutal wars. Trench warfare,

Brian Atlastotally catastrophic. Uh what they witnessed, what they experienced, absolutely terrible. They came back with just to either de debilitating physical

Brian Atlasinjuries if they didn't die. Um or just mentally completely thrashed and destroyed. Uh you know, shell shock, uh war fatigue, or there's a different term

Shannon Daveyfor it with fatigue, PTSD as it's now called. I completely understand. And I think that if instead of having conversations about which gender is

Shannon Daveysuffering more, we can collectively agree we're all suffering under this system. And so why don't we band together and say, "Hey, we're all collectively suffering here as a

Shannon Daveylowerass people." And it's really the people above us in like the top 1% who are causing these wars to happen, who are profiting off of us and and this collective trauma. Yeah, I I I have a

Brian Atlasresponse to this. Um, okay. Do you think there should be a revolution? Um, I I'm not exactly sure what should happen. Are you are you uh in terms of your political leanings, would you

Shannon Daveyconsider yourself like a communist or socialist? Um, I would say I lean more towards socialism. However, I don't really have like this utopian concept

Brian Atlaspersonally. I'm not exactly sure what the right answer is moving forward. So, but you think the you're saying the people who don't

Shannon Daveyhave the means of production should band together and overthrow the bourgeoisi. I'm not exactly sure if an overthrowing is exactly what needs to happen. I don't

Brian Atlasknow if it could even happen. But clarify, you said the what the the lower and middle class should band together. Yeah. And do what? So do what? I think that instead of having conversations

Shannon Daveywhere we're saying women suffer more, no, men suffer more, we should collectively say we as lowerass people are all suffering together and we should definitely try to implement some change.

Shannon DaveyI don't know if it's an entire revolution. I don't think that is potentially even possible with just how life is nowadays. However, I do think that having conversations together

Shannon Daveyinstead of trying to play trauma dump Olympics is going to be the answer. Like, we're all collectively suffering

Shannon Daveywhen it comes to things like war. And war is typically something that the upper class uses towards the lower class to keep them in place and to cause suffering like we just said. But I mean, you're you're talking about

Brian AtlasOkay. So, I mean, to what end do you want the lower and middle class to band together? I'm assuming it would be like revolutionary. If we look historically at revolutions, you look at the

Brian Atlascommunist revolution in in uh well, the USSR, Russia, well, what became the USSR? Uh, did that I mean, did they not have a military? Did they not send men to war?

Brian AtlasIn fact, my understanding, if you look at the the Communist Revolution, uh, World War II, they lost a [ __ ] ton of men. A [ __ ] ton of men died in World

Shannon DaveyWar II who were part of the Red Army, the Soviet army. I don't I don't have an ultimate answer of a utopia here. I just think my theory is that instead of making it where we're

Shannon Daveycompeting against who's suffering more, we should have a collective mindset that we're all suffering under the system. But hold on. Isn't that

Brian Atlasfeminism? Women suffer more. Women are disadvantaged as compared to men. So, you're you're you're trying to disregard my arguments as to uh male suffering and

Brian Atlassay, "Well, we shouldn't play these games of oppression Olympics, but this is a game that feminism started, right?" So, you're going to have to completely

Brian Atlasdismiss feminism and you're gonna have to say feminism is [ __ ] Feminism sucks. Women's rights advocacy, like all that. You have to dismiss all that and

Brian Atlassay it's [ __ ] because that's exactly what feminism is. Comparing men to women, saying here's how women have it

Shannon Daveyworse compared to men. They have had it in regards to their rights and abilities worse than men until very recently. I disagree. I think men have had it worse.

Shannon DaveyNot just they men have it worse today and historically. I mean, depends on the man and the situation. I don't think that's generalizing that. I'm not sure. If

Brian Atlasanyone else wants to see that feminism, yeah, there were look, there were there were men who were homeless in the 1910s and there were women who were like living incredible like uh they were part

Brian Atlasof the upper class and they were living great lives. There also women who are also on the streets. Well, actually, I mean, when it comes to homelessness, men are much more likely to be homeless. But uh both in modern day and historically.

Brian AtlasBut she was trying to make the point well you have to it depends on the person and it's like well we can look back historically or modern day we can find evidence of women who have it worse than a particular man and we can look at

Guidancea particular man who has it worse than a particular woman. Yeah. I think women are saying that we have had it worse than men saying feminism just means

Natalie Stavolaequal rights. You're talking about ultra feminism. worse. Feminism just means equal rights for men and women. And then ultra feminism is what you're describing. Feminism has always been a grievance movement related to women have

Natalie Stavolait worse. That's in your I don't know anyone who's saying that we have worse or that it's not good. It's not who's worse. We want to vote. That was it. It was like feminism. Hey, we want to vote. How about that? And then we're like,

Natalie Stavolahey, you also suffer. Why don't we do something about it? What's the solution? Okay, but so hold on. So you said feminism is an equality movement, right? Men and women deserve equal rights is

Brian Atlasthe definition. Does that include gender roles? What do you mean by gender roles? Well, I mean there's been a big push by feminists to dismantle and destroy gender roles, especially traditional gender roles as it relates to women. But

Natalie StavolaI I want to ultra feminism. There's there so there's different levels. We even learned that in psychology a long time ago. There's actually like different levels of feminism. And then you have people that are like extremely egregious

Brian Atlaswomen. Yeah. Look, it's it's mainstream feminism. Mainstream feminism is about destroying traditional gender roles for women. Mainstream feminism is about

Brian Atlasgrievances. Mainstream feminism uh mainstream feminism puts forward this I think dubious patriarchy theory and it paints men as the oppressors and women

Brian Atlasas the oppressed. This is this isn't like fringe radical feminism. Mainstream mainline feminism is patriarchy theory. Uh women's grievances and men

Natalie Stavolaoppressors, women oppressed. That's that's basic patriarchy theory. You're going to learn at like any college in a feminist studies group. I wish that we didn't label it though because back in the day we we decided to start labeling

Natalie Stavolait that and then going okay mainstream feminism and then what happened was it was like ah crap you know there goes the labels on that just like overdoing it with narcissism and trauma and now when you actually have what the real word

Natalie Stavolaactually means you don't get to use it anymore cuz the moment I say feminism everyone's gonna have a trigger I mean it's always been bad it's always been bad and I'll explain well here's no no I I think I think that I think that women

Guidancecoming to the table and going Hey, we want to come to the table for you, too. I I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think that I think y'all should go to war. I have two sons. I would go to war before I send any of my boys to fight.

GuidanceBut that's not a we suffer more versus that's like No. Yeah. Men suffer so much, y'all. We We wanted to be We would just rather It's systematic sexism towards men. You're absolutely right.

Brian AtlasWho's doing it though? Not us. It doesn't matter. It wouldn't matter. So, look. So, I think that's none of us are But it's men. But it's men who do it. I'll tell you, look, men men as a group

Brian Atlasdidn't create uh male only selective service. Men don't maintain it. Uh like I as a man have no more say in how

Shannon Daveyselective service is uh is run than does a woman. We as women are trying to say that we feel for you and we don't want that to happen to you as men. So and we want a seat at the table to vote against

Brian Atlasit. Yeah. We want to be able to vote. Uh, but here's where I'm going to get you guys. So, here's where I'm going to get you guys. And there's a couple there there are a couple things I want to say.

Brian AtlasUm, but really quick before I before I address the the draft thing, uh, you were saying how feminism like feminism has never been about equality and I can prove it. So, women got the right to

Brian Atlasvote in 1920. Yes. Right before that, just a few years before that, was the most catastrophic, brutal worldwide war that has ever occurred. World War I, right? I I forget the exact numbers. I

Brian Atlasthink it's uh 10 million, 20 million deaths or casualties. Casualties would include injuries and so forth. Uh completely brutal. Just look, if you

Brian Atlasguys want to have a glimpse of the understanding of how brutal World War I is, go watch or well, you could also read the book All Quiet on the Western Front. I think it's on Netflix. All

Brian AtlasQuiet on the Western Front. Totally brutal. I think most people don't. No offense to you guys. Do you guys like have you seen like even a historical

Brian Atlasfictional war movie? Yes. Like a lot. War is brutal in ways you can and those movies don't even capture 1% of the brutality and suffering men have

Brian Atlasexperienced. Yeah. But World War I happened a a few years before uh women's suffrage in 1920. Why is it the case that women were able

Brian Atlasto secure the right to vote without any corresponding responsibility? Men have duties. Women don't. What kind of duties are you talking about? Were we trying to

Brian Atlasdo we want those duties? So, a lot of women didn't want to get the right to vote because they were worried if they did get the the right to vote, they would be treat they would because they were fighting for equality, they would be treated as equals to men, meaning

Natalie Stavolathey would be subject to forced military conscription. Right. This is something that's coming up as you're talking though is interesting because it feels like when it was feminism, and don't get me wrong, it really was from the beginning there was a delineation

Natalie Stavolabetween feminism and ultra feminism. I do remember that from 20 years ago. Um it does feel like there's this kind of counter point here going on that it's like a lot of us are coming to the table and go yeah you guys shouldn't be suffering and you shouldn't be suffering

Natalie Stavolaat the hands of other men you shouldn't be suffering at the hands of women we are coming to the table it's like yes two things coexist we're trying to make it a causality and a and a thing instead of it two being doing two separate things yes women right to vote doing

Natalie Stavolacertain things and at the same time men suffering is terrible and I have friends that have been going in hard on trying to get more money to the DA and more work for men and more you know all kinds of things because it does affect our

Natalie Stavolaentire community. It affects everyone obviously we've said that in different ways it sure on the war thing whatever but not whatever but you know what I mean um it affects you guys come home

Natalie Stavolathere's a lot of PTSD the women takes it too there's PTSD in the home the child gets PTSD all kinds of things it sure what's the solution well I'll I'll address that in just a moment I just want to make it clear though feminism

Brian Atlashas never been about equality and I'll prove it so 1914 1918 World War I 1920 women get the right to vote, but they also don't have any, like I said, corresponding

Brian Atlasresponsibility as it relates to forced military conscription. They're they're exempt from having to register with selective service and they're exempt from the draft, right? And then women do

Brian Atlasthat. Mind you, it's been a century, right? We've had a century of feminism. I don't hear women or excuse me, I don't hear feminists advocating for let's equalize the draft. I don't hear that.

Brian AtlasYou do. No, but let me let me just You have it in Israel. Stop. Stop. Stop. I'd like to finish my point. I'd like to finish my point. And so it's never been about equality. Just

Brian Atlasto be clear, feminism is a woman at the most charitable I'll be is a women's advocacy movement. I think there's a lot of uh there's a lot of misandry in the

Brian Atlasmovement. Uh I think I think I can see that. Yeah. So it's it's man-hating. I think it's man-hating. patriarchy theory, total conspiracy theory. It

Brian Atlaspaints men as uh predators. It paints women as uh perpetual victims. Men are the oppressors. Women are the oppressed. It's feminism's never been about equality. But if I'm going to be as

Brian Atlascharitable as I can be, feminism is a woman's advocacy movement. And there's nothing wrong with women's advocacy. But to try to parade that as some sort of

Brian Atlasequality movement, if you're advocating for women, great. What does that have to do with equality? Absolutely nothing. And I'll continue to prove it once more. So, as related to the draft, again, it's

Brian Atlas2025. Women have had over a century to equalize this. Not equalized. Feminism. Uh women have plenty of political capital. Uh most uh elections are

Brian Atlasdictated by women, except for this most recent one. Uh women make up the majority of the voter base. If you guys wanted to, you could with your political capital as women could get this passed.

Brian AtlasBut it's just not one, it's just not politically tenable because women enjoy their privilege of not being subject to military conscription. I think it's uh I don't I certainly don't think it's a

Brian Atlasprivilege that men are the exclusive uh I'll just say victims of forced military conscription. You're talking about a couple things though in there, too. You're also adding in power. Sorry. Continue. Well, just a few more things

Brian Atlashere on this. Uh there's other examples too where look, outside of giving the examples, I'll just say this. If conceivably

Brian Atlasequality, a form of equality would not stand to benefit a woman, but it would be equality. Like we would agree that a

Brian Atlasthere could be a form of equality that could be to the detriment of women. Feminism will not fight or advocate for said equality if it conceivably comes,

Brian Atlaslike I said, to the detriment of women. And this is exactly this is exactly how the feminism movement is not an equality movement. I think that there's 50/50 in that. And I agree with that. I think that that's why I said I was like

Natalie Stavolathere's a part in there that we're also starting to talk on now, which is privilege and power. Because now all of a sudden now all of a sudden when you've been at the bottom so to speak or you look at yourself as the bottom when you view yourself as the oppressed sometimes

Natalie Stavolawhat happens is if you don't heal from that mindset you start to get power or you start to get that privilege and suddenly you don't really want to have that taken away or you don't want the

Natalie Stavolafull part of it. So women with each other we have our own communication we have our own like you know you said it we've talked about it earlier women shame other women. women are still like

Natalie Stavolawe're still working on for instance when I tell women that I'm a coach for men they're like oh good they need it and immediately I'm like no we do too and that's it's just ridiculous because if a

Natalie Stavolaif you don't heal regardless of who hurt you you're just going to wind up giving that pain to someone else or continuing to take it on. So there's a lot to be said that it's like yeah we hear you. We know there's a lot of women who would love that right to be able to go and

Natalie Stavolainto war and do that and some countries have that and that's that's what they wanted. So we're looking at like you know the Kairens of the world too. We still have to battle and other women have to battle that [ __ ] You had

Shannon Daveysomething sh Yeah. That's why I think now this is more of a class issue than it is a gender issue because women can fight in war and actively choose to

Shannon Daveyparticipate because of the benefits that going into the service gets them because they're usually lowerass people. Yeah, they can I agree with you that women can

Shannon Daveyvolunteer to uh it didn't fully like equal out obviously cuz women haven't been able to for so long until more recently. But

Shannon Daveywomen still actively do go into the service. Yeah. Vol voluntarily. But even if you look at the But is it voluntarily though? If you're somewhat forced into

Brian Atlasit because of your class. No. Hold on. Nobody's forced to join the military. You're not forced. But there is a pressure when you are of lower class. No. Look, I Yeah, because there's

Shannon Daveythere's an incentive. Sure. There's an incentive, but there's also an incentive to get a job at McDonald's. There is. Yeah, there's more incentive though when it comes to the military because they

Guidanceprey on the lower class. I mean, I'm talking to recruiters now and they are telling me the same thing. Like for me being like a single mom and student, it would it made sense for me to enlist cuz I mean that's housing, that's school,

Guidancethat's health, that's dental, my kids are covered. Those are all selling points. those selling like and so if you're already at a lower class status and you're already struggling, you're already despared, you're already those

Guidancethings, somebody offering you pretty much a set future for the rest of your life to sign up for it. It's going to look pretty good. I mean, like it does. That's why you have people enlisting every day, women and me. I I do. We have

Brian Atlaswomen in our family that have enlisted a lot, too. Yeah. I'm gonna address really quick just the draft thing, right? And I think this will maybe change your mind. So you guys all said, "Well, maybe we should just get War is so bad. There

Brian Atlasshould never be war." Oh, we wish, but that's [ __ ] utopia that doesn't exist. You know, it's, you know, and there should never be crime and nobody should ever have any cancer or injury. Are we talking about Norway? I'm sure we

Brian Atlascan all agree. Are we describing Norway and Switzerland? We can all agree that yeah, how the world should be. But if we're looking at h how the world is,

Brian Atlasright, war is going to be a reality. Yeah. like there's no escaping it. And even if uh as a country you're like, well, I don't want to have an army, you

Brian Atlasdo so at your own peril because if you do get invaded, you've just lost your your sovereign nation. And so the point I would make is this,

Brian Atlasand I think I'll perhaps change your mind on the draft. Uh, look, I don't think the draft is good, but I think it's one of those uh there's a specific term for this uh a ne not a necessity,

Brian Atlasbut a necessary evil. Nec sort of a necessary evil. Uh so, uh which I which I will acknowledge uh men are the

Brian Atlasvictims victims of and it's it's awful and it shouldn't happen, but it does. But I'll explain it like this. Here's this scenario.

Brian AtlasUh, I this Well, should I use China? Okay, we'll use All right, I'm gonna So, okay, here we live in the United States,

Wu (Cassie)right? We live in the United States and China, we know China's going to invade our country. It's hypothetical. Definitely not. We're not invading any

Brian Atlascountry. No, I know. I'm just uh I'm fine. I'll change it to uh No, I'm gonna pick a I'm gonna pick uh let's do Kazakhstan. Yes, Kazakhstan

Brian Atlasbecomes a superpower somehow. I don't know. And or we just become like really shitty. I don't know. And uh this country though uh they're going to

Brian Atlasinvade us. And this country is evil. And we know what's going to and they invaded another country near them. And we know what happened to that country. This is

Brian Atlaswhat happened to that country. They killed all the men and then they took all the women as war brides. That's happened. Yeah. And I mean historically,

Brian Atlasyes, this has happened. And they essay all the women. Yep. And we know that this country when they do invade us in say a year, they're planning the invasion. We find out in a

Brian Atlasyear they're going to invade us. If we don't draft men to fight for the country, they're going to kill all the all the men. anyways and then they're going to essay all the women.

Brian AtlasMhm. Under these circumstances are you as women here's the entailment. If you don't let's say and you all get to vote

Brian Atlason if there should be a draft that happens. If you don't vote to draft the men to go to war, there's not going to

Brian Atlasbe enough of a military force to repel the enemy. There's just not. You have to force the men to fight because the volunteer force isn't strong enough to repel the enemy. Question. If you don't, you're going to

Natalie Stavolaget essay and all the men are going to die. Yeah. Do you vote to draft the men? Question. Sure. Um are in this scenario or what do you believe? And I'm just curious. Do do you think that answer the question before I give my position? No,

Natalie Stavolabut I meant um so for this would it be that women can also be drafted? Can we are we voting in that women get drafted as well too? No, just the men. Really? But then why? But do you think that women should have also be a part of that

Brian Atlasdraft? I mean, they have it in other countries. Well, in my specific example, it's just the men. And I mean, that's how most uh military conscription works around the world. It's just the men who are subject

Brian Atlasto it. It sounds like we're losing either way, draft or no draft in this scenario. So, no, in the scenario, uh I'll just go ahead and say in the scenario, if you do draft the men, you do win. Okay, that

Brian Atlaswas that was my could make it I could change the scenario where it's like well uh you know for sure if you don't draft the men you're going to lose but if you

Guidancedo draft the men it's even 50/50. I we can change it to that. So would the women in here reenact the draft if war was imminent with some country? Would you vote to draft the men? I would say

Brian Atlasyes. I would say yes. Yeah. Everybody they're suffering. So I'd say yeah. You have to pick the even if that takes away men's uh free will

Brian Atlasbecause you being drafted. Well, you would be sending men who don't want to go and fight to go and fight. So, you're taking away their their free will and agency. But all their wives and mothers

Shannon Daveyand all those people would get said if we decided not to. And they'd probably all because we have they would die anyway. So, I guess we would have to

Guidancedeath. I don't either way is death. I would say no just because I wouldn't send my Yeah, death seems imminent. I wouldn't send my sons over there just to prevent me from or some other woman from

Natalie Stavolagetting s aid. Um I would say no. Like we're all fighting or we're all dying. That's all. Yeah. Honestly, I would push and I would keep advocating for if that's the case, then I think women need to be in the draft on that one, too. We

Natalie Stavolaall need to be World War II, we had it where women went to the workplace and started doing that's not the same. But there means that we can do something if that's the 40s and we can sit there and push for like hey this is eminent which means that if it's eminent then we're

Natalie Stavolagoing to have a serious conversation on well if that's the case then women need to be in the table on on the draft and that would be the push. The opposing nation isn't going to have a conversation. They're ready to go. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying then it's like you can do that quickly. You can do

Natalie Stavolaan executive order where you go, "Hey, women are now um in in this draft order." Cuz you said it's a year away. They found out that it's a year. So, oh, I guess I push I'm pushing for here's what we're going to uh here's what we're

Brian Atlasgoing to do just to get this wrapped up. We'll do a brief roast session. I you know, whatever. $30 TTS, then we're going to wrap. Um so, if you want, you guys have like 5 10 minutes to get a roast in. Then we got to get this wrapped up cuz it's super late already.

Brian AtlasUh okay. We have uh these are from Oh my god. Christopher Christopher California and Christopher I'm really sorry for the delay on these. I apologize. Christopher Murphy donated

SPEAKER_08$69 body count over $30 and you're giving advice to people. Close your legs and your mouth. You first. All right, Christopher, sorry for the

SPEAKER_08delay on that one. Nice. California donated $69. Dear Brian, we are reaching out in regards to a report of you operating a dump truck without a proper license.

Brian AtlasTake necessary actions or ICE will deport you. Taylor learn how to drive. Also, it's been a minute since I heard Taylor drift. Okay, thank you, man. Appreciate

SPEAKER_08it. Christopher Murphy donated $70. I'll let these ladies in on a little secret. Most men live a life of pain and tolerance. You enjoy your peace while we

Brian Atlastake the blows to maintain that life for you. Call your father. Oh, there's this great quote. Is it from Winston Churchill? People sleep peaceibly in

Brian Atlastheir beds at night because rough men rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. Have you ever met an Italian woman? Okay.

Brian AtlasOh, apparently it's attributed to somebody else, I guess. Oh, I heard that quote, though. That's Yeah, it's a good call. All right. Uh guys, if you want, get them in. $30 TTS. $30 TTS. Uh we'll

Brian Atlaswe'll let it go for about 5 10 minutes. Um one last I guess one or two last things from the questionnaire here. Uh women are oppressed in the USA. Shannon,

Brian Atlasyou agree. Moon, you agree. Uh let's see. Anyone else? Gabby, you agree. Uh just really quick, how are women oppressed in the USA? I know we talked

Shannon Daveyabout privilege, but how are they oppressed? Um, I would just say in it's baked into our society. Like women still don't seem

Shannon Daveyto have the same um level of seriousness when it comes to the workplace. Like women aren't taken as seriously and um

Brian Atlasyeah, just in general socially like women aren't taken as seriously as men. Okay. Um All right. What about you, Moon? you uh how are women oppressed? Um

Guidanceyou know, no offense, but I mean I would even say like just the fact like like this podcast in general, we are having to defend basically who we are, what we

Guidancebelieve in, and some of the stuff that we didn't even have any control over such as like the draft and stuff. You know, I I get war. I think it's horrible. You know, I think all of that's just disgraceful. But like to me,

Guidancenothing compares to child birth. And the day that a man can pull another human out of his body, then we'll talk. I mean, war is war, but none of that has

Guidanceany balance towards child birth, if you ask me. Voluntary child birth. Not all child birth is voluntary. What percentage of child birth is? I have no idea. But not all child birth is

Guidancevoluntary. And child birth lasts 9 months. Some women die. It's pain. It's it's a horrible thing. And no man can do it. And then when y'all sit here and you say, "But aren't we stronger than you?" Then go to war. Why are you crying about

Guidanceit like that? Why is it this big thing? You just said y'all are stronger. You want women with low body counts. You want us to be at home. You want us to be that model woman that's beautiful and

Guidancesoft and submissive, but you don't want to go like you can't have it both ways. You can't have us and then No. I mean, if it's just I believe we should not send men to war at all. We should just

Gabby (Michigan)send the war. I think we all That'd be sick. I want to send Gabby to war. She'd do it. She'd be lethal. Wait, what did you say? I want to send you to war. I

Brian Atlasactually was thinking with the proper because um yeah, college sucked. I think I got to hold on. I got to address

Guidancethat first point you made though. Child birth is worse than like the brutality of war. I would say because the amount

Guidancethat most women most women are going to have to go through child birth. I mean sure some volunteer volunteer to give birth. Most women want children. Men

Guidancewant children. But we are the only sex that has to go through nine months of usually uncomfortable living and then painful birth or surgery. Yeah, I agree. Look,

Brian Atlasum I'm not going to dispute that pregnancy and child birth is uh painful or discomforting or like war is painful or suffering or whatever, but but I don't think you're going to make a

Brian Atlascompelling argument that child birth can be nearly as uh bad as war. No, I'm saying for me personally, it's

Guidancelike like she said too, I think there are things and suffering on both side. And most women today, I think especially the ones sitting here, we don't want any of us to suffer. We don't want y'all to

Guidancego to war. We don't like I get your argument, but I think my question behind the whole men going to war thing was like, what what's your point? Like, we get it. We see it. We don't like it.

GuidanceWhat is your point behind it? like, "Oh, we we also deserve a blankie because we suffer, too." We knew that we knew that women did. I'll explain. No. Yeah. I'll I'll explain. We want to do something

Brian Atlasabout No, I'll explain. So So feminism has always been about a comparison. Women have it worse to men, but I just reject this categorically both modern

Brian Atlasday and historically. So this idea that like the the point I'm trying to make by bringing up warfare is that it's clearly

Brian Atlasignored as a genderbased grievance, but it clearly is a gender-based grievance. If you look at the distribution of men who are soldiers and not just on not

Brian Atlasjust that but even if you do do a comparison between male soldiers and female soldiers, men are almost almost exclusively the frontline soldiers. Exclusively the ones that are injured

Brian Atlasexclusively the ones that are frontline combat that are getting killed. Yep. Or PTSD or all of these things. Women often even when they are in the military,

Brian Atlasthey're not on the front lines. They're not going to raid Osama bin Laden's thing. They're not Seal Team Six or whatever, you know, all that stuff. Women are typically in administration

Brian Atlasroles. They're in support roles. Men are overwhelming. Like even in that scenario where women are in the military. So this comparison, feminism's always been about a comparison. And I'm saying actually

Brian Atlasnow that you're playing the comparison game between men and women, I'm gonna play it too. And I'm gonna say that if we're looking at the totality of circumstances, and there's a bunch of,

Brian Atlasby the way, besides war, men are more likely to be homeless. Men are less likely to go go to college. Men are more likely to unal alive themselves. Men are more likely to be incarcerated. Men are more likely to be victim of violent

Brian Atlascrime. There's plenty of things that I can tell you besides just the war argument where men are disproportionately impacted with negative life outcomes. It's interesting

Brian Atlasto me. You you I think part of feminism is the apex fallacy. You look at the top 1% or 10% of men and you attribute that

Brian Atlasex lived experience. Oh, that's how all men must experience life. But the reality is, here's my argument, is that while it might be the case that there's more male CEOs and there's more men who

Brian Atlasare rich and there's more men who occupy boardrooms and there's more men who occupy positions of power. I'm not going to argue any of that. I'm not going to dispute any of that. I'm going to go

Brian Atlasahead and agree and grant it. However, I think a greater proportion of women enjoy what I would call the middle, the comfortable middle. And then though, if

Brian Atlaswe're looking at this like a pyramid, sure, let's just go ahead and put men on top. And then in the middle where it's like you're living like your life's good, your life's okay. It's you're not

Brian Atlasa superstar CEO or you're not uh you don't have power or whatever. Although we can have conversations of the soft power that women do have, but at the very bottom of this pyramid, you see

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