Pregnancy WORSE Than War?! 300+ Body Count?! $1,000,000 To Date Her?! Andrew W! | Dating Talk #243

Date: 2025-05-19

Duration: 8h 55m

Guests

Brian Atlas

SShannon Davey >

NNatalie Stavola >

AAndrew Wilson >

GGabby (Michigan)>

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_02Gabby (Michigan)(guest)

SPEAKER_03Felicity(guest)

SPEAKER_04Natalie Stavola(guest)

SPEAKER_09Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_10Shannon Davey(guest)

SPEAKER_11Guidance(guest)

SPEAKER_13Joey(guest)

SPEAKER_14Wu (Cassie)(guest)

Key Moments

IntroAll guests introduced including Wu (8 languages, PhD linguistics)

Key MomentGuidance: engaged after 6-week courtship. 3 prior marriages. Shunned from JW.

Key MomentNatalie: 8-year sobriety anniversary today (cocaine/alcohol). 300+ body count.

Key MomentAndrew's infinite regress argument on trans identity: if partner has penis and you perform oral, by your definition that's gay

OtherAndrew Wilson departs to sleep before next day debate

Topics Discussed

Guest Introductions

Shannon, Guidance, Natalie, Joey, Gabby, Wu, Felicity, Andrew Wilson.

Octopus Water Incident

Water smells fishy. Brian blames Costco octopus contaminating fridge.

Body Count Discussion

Andrew's grimy dude multiplier. 10 ONS vs 10 failed LTRs trolley problem.

Bow Video and Submission

Brian shows ex bowing. Panel asked if they would bow. Wu: 3x/week max.

Minimum Income Round

Shannon $100-150K. Guidance $300K. Natalie $300K+. Joey $75K. Wu $36K/yr.

Transgender Identity Debate

Guidance: wrong to refuse trans people solely for being trans. Andrew's infinite regress on defining 'woman.'

Body Count Reveals

Felicity 2. Guidance 27. Shannon declined. Natalie 300+. Gabby 2.

Transcript

Page 7 of 10

Guidancethemselves, I think, you know, it it kind of sucks for guys, but the bottom line of it is no vagina carrying person at this table has to do much but carry a vagina and we're going

Brian Atlasto get play. Correct. Women don't have to. We are already the only sex. I mean, that's just what it is. Well put. That's right. That's right. You know, we're going to actually save the AI thing for a little later. Mary, pull up the one,

SPEAKER_01though. Here's that Fisher guy as a woman now. Look. Wow. She's super She's a bit big boned. Every [ __ ] 50% of the guys you saw her is going to bing

SPEAKER_01her right. She She downloads Tinder. She's getting laid that night. Yeah. That hour. You mean that hour? That hour. Sure. Yeah. Total differential. Just thought it was If she put like come

Brian Atlasover right now and [ __ ] me, she's getting [ __ ] right? I mean, they don't. Girls don't got to even be direct. But if they did, yeah, sure. She would get a guy. It would come off pretty sleazy, but yeah, she could do it. All right, so here's what we're

Brian Atlasgoing to do. We're going to get into the questionnaire. So, we're going to uh let's see. I don't think there's really anything on the height thing that's I found particularly

Brian Atlasshocking. Uh Joey, uh no, actually, yeah, nothing too crazy on the height. We'll just do bear then. Uh, would you rather cross paths with a random man or random bear on the hike? I think I put

Gabby (Michigan)man. I think that's what I put. What about you? Pick the bear any day. You random bear. Random bear. Okay. I said man. You wrote neither, but you have to pick

Natalie Stavolaone. I'll pick one. Um, probably man. Probably ma'am. Man. Okay. Uh, why do you pick bear? Why did you pick bear? There was a time I was actually hiking and I was out in Zion and this guy

Guidancestarted following me. Uh, okay. Yeah. And in that moment, I I was like, "Fuck, if there was a bear, the bear probably would have run away." Because the bear is probably thinking about eating me or chasing me. The man may be thinking

Guidanceabout killing me, murdering me. What kind of augmentations do I have? Um, all of those other things that some of the men think about your augmentations. I mean, all of the things that we kind of brought up today or that some of the men

Brian Atlasbrought up today is why I would choose a bear over a male any day. Here's what I'm going to do on this one. So me and Andrew would just totally just totally destroy you guys on this debate. So

Brian Atlashere's what I'm going to do. I'm just going to state I'm not going to debate categorically that we've won the debate without even arguing the points. Sure. Um the thing to do. Why you robbing me?

SPEAKER_01Andrew said why you robbing me? Cuz there's better stuff if you can stay longer. I'm staying for a second. If you can stay No, I can't stay for longer, but I'm going to if if the heart's out. Yeah, I'd rather get it to other stuff

SPEAKER_01then. Uh, okay. So, let's see here. But I I do like the preemptive declaration of victory. I'm a big fan of that. Sure. Yeah, it was uh Okay, so it was men versus women and we were outnumbered and we still won exactly how it should be.

SPEAKER_01Would you, Andrew, what would interest you more, the tea stuff or the like uh women oppressed feminism stuff? Let's start with tea and moved on to feminism. Okay, so we'll be quick on the tea. I'll make a little bit of extra time if

Brian Atlasnecessary through it. All right. So, we have uh let's see. Uh Moon, you say it's wrong to re refuse to date a transgender

Brian Atlasperson because they are trans. And in addition to that, uh Gabby, you said a man dating a or you agree a man dating a transgender woman is straight. And you

Brian Atlasalso say you agree a man dating a transgender woman is straight. So, that's Gabby, that's you. And then uh Moon, you said you didn't say that it's

Brian Atlasstraight, but you did say it's wrong to refuse to date a transgender person because they're trans. We'll start there. Uh why? Just curious. So if I refuse to date a transgender woman, that would be wrong. Why is that? Depends on

Guidanceyour reasoning for not dating her. Is it just because she's trans? Um yes, sure. Um I believe personally

Guidancethat a transgender woman is in fact a woman. So if you if you're speaking biologically, if she's had biological surgery, that presents as a female, I

Andrew Wilsonbelieve that is presenting as a female. It's like if you drive a truck, I mean, you you Let me give you let let's try to I'll be as good faith on this as

Guidancepossible if you are. So let's let's back up. Yeah. What is a woman for for you? What does that mean? For me, as a woman

Guidancewho dates women, I would say someone feminine, someone probably with breast, probably with a vagina. Um,

Guidancelike a real one, you know, real as in Yeah. a physical vagina. Yeah. Uh-huh. Like born with it? No. Not necessarily. No. So, let me ask you this. If I were

Andrew Wilsonto ask you, if I let's let's pretend for a second I'm like your 10-year-old son. All right. and I come to you and I say, "Mom, I'm not gay, but I'm going to go suck my girlfriend's dick." "I'm not

Andrew Wilsongay, but I'm going to go suck my girlfriend's dick." All right, I hear you. How do you reconcile that with him? Or no, not 10. Let's say like 14. How do

Andrew Wilsonyou reconcile that with him and be like, "Uh, no, you're right. That's not a gay act to go suck your girlfriend's dick." Can you just like walk me through the logic there?

Andrew WilsonYeah, I know it's probably going to be different than yours, but first of all, I wouldn't care because that's my child. I'm not saying you care. I'm not saying that from your view. There's anything that's wrong with that. All right, we're

Andrew Wilsonasking a specific question about homosexuality, heterosexuality, gay or straight. He's asking this question. Is it gay if I do that? Am I a gay person

Andrew Wilsonif I go suck my girlfriend's dick? You say to him, what? have fun. Yeah, I know. But but that's not What's his question, though? My son wouldn't have a question. He

GuidanceYeah, I know. But if he did, but if he did, what what what is this question that I asked you? You're gay is a term that people in society chose to to

Guidancedescribe your sexuality. Whatever my child, whatever descriptor he wants to use to describe his sexuality, that's up to him. It doesn't matter who he's Yeah, I know. Well, what's Okay, I I what I'm

Andrew Wilsonasking you for, repeat back to me the question that your 14-year-old son's asking you. I'm having sex with a transgender woman. Am I No. No. No.

Andrew WilsonWhat's the question your son's asking you? Maybe I'm not gay. If I suck my girlfriend's dick, mom, am I gay? I want you to repeat that so I know that you

Andrew Wilsonknow what he's asking. If I suck my girlfriend's dick, am I gay? Yeah. Okay. What is How do you walk him through that? Tell me. Easy. Okay. Do you like

Guidancethis person? Sure. He likes this person. Does this person like you? Absolutely. Are y'all going to be engaging in this sexual activity in a safe place? He says, "Sure." All right. Are their

Guidanceparents okay with it since they're probably both minors? Sure. They say sure. Have fun. Okay. Great. But but what what's the question though? There is none. And for for there to be one, I

Guidancewould not even say that I was a loving parent towards my child if there was any other question that didn't involve their happiness and their safety. So, you just basically never answer the question. No,

SPEAKER_01cuz there isn't one, right? Okay. And then who who was the next one? Yeah. So, uh Gabby, you said that it's straight for a man to date a transgender. So, Gab

Andrew WilsonGabby, your son comes to you. I'm going to ask you the same question. And he says, "Hey, mom." Right. I'm 15. I can make my own decisions now. I'm in a sexual

Andrew Wilsonrelationship. I'm going to suck my girlfriend's dick. Is that gay? No. Can you walk me? Hang on. Can you walk me through what you would say? Wait, why

Andrew Wilsondid they got to be 15, 16, whatever? 18. Because Because that's She's the mom. And so I'm like 15, 16, 17, whatever.

Andrew WilsonOkay. Yeah. Whatever. It doesn't matter. Um, it's irrelevant for the point. Do they present as a girl, as a woman? Sure. Oh, no. It's not gay. That's a lady. Lady with a dick. A lady with a

Guidancedick. Yep. I'm a lady with a dick when I want to. I mean, so does that make my partner hetero when I wear a strap? I mean, well, hang on. I feel like you just lied to me. How? Do Do you have a physical penis? Nope. Well, then why did

Guidanceyou just say you're a lady with a dick? You just lied. Cuz a dick is something that goes inside a vagina. It doesn't have to have blood. So a cucumber is a dick if you use it as such. I mean Oh

Andrew Wilsonyeah. So a cucumber if you attach it to I feel like I feel like uh when I say the word dick I mean a penis that is attached to a male. And when you say

Guidancedick, you don't actually mean the word dick. I sure don't because Exactly. So what you do is you just avoid the question. No. Because does the girl get off on the cucumber or does the person with the Sure. Let's just assume they

Brian Atlasdo. This would be like me saying [ __ ] is like peanut butter. If I got peanut butter, bro. If I got a a a piece of

Brian Atlasmeat from the grocery store Mhm. and made love to it, that that's a [ __ ] Not at all. That's not the same at all. Not the same. You literally said like a banana or like a cucumber would be a

Guidancedick. Oh, obviously a piece of meat isn't the same shape or anatomy as a [ __ ] mango. I don't know. Whatever the [ __ ] looks like. No. Well, maybe if you said like if you carved a piece of meat into a dildo and put meat in it. Is

Guidancethere such a thing as a dildo? Of course there is. Is there such a thing as a male penis? Is a male penis? Like a Yeah. What's the difference between the two? One has blood pumping through it,

Andrew Wilsonone does not. Okay, great. So then it is the case that if I were to say to you that you're going over to suck your girlfriend's penis, we're talking about one category, not the other, right? Right? We're talking about a flesh, what

Andrew WilsonI call a fleshy penis. Okay? So, if we are talking about that, then how can you possibly say a cucumber is a penis to you because the same way if I put on a strap tonight and I go home and my You

Guidancehave made the category differential that that's a dildo and not a penis. No, it's not about the So, it's not about the equipment. It's about the wearer. If you put on a fake vagina today, right now,

Guidanceand you said to us, I am now a woman. I have on a quote fake vagina. Wait, it's fake though. I mean, that's why I'm saying it is fake to us. It may be, but

Guidanceif you are presenting and telling us to respect you as a female person, but is it true? Do you do you believe it's true? I know. Okay. Of course not. It's

Guidanceit's like objectively not true, right? I think exactly. So that's why it's not about you feel like it's about I know it's objectively not true because you made the differential yourself. There's

Andrew Wilsona difference between a dildo and a penis. Of course there is. So if there's an attachment distinction, if you have that same attachment, homosexual meaning

Andrew Wilsonsame sex, you suck on the penis of the same sex, how is that not gay? I don't think there's a Because gay just means

Guidanceyou're having sex with someone of the same sex. Got it. However, wait, no, no, no. What does gay mean? that you're having sex with someone of the same sex.

Andrew WilsonAnd if you're having sex with someone in this case who you call your on who you call your girlfriend and has a penis, they are the same.

GuidanceNo. Because if that girlfriend with the penis decided to that she wanted to be a he or a they, it's not about the sex, it's about the

Guidanceorientation of the person. I have a full vagina biologically. But if I presented as male and I said I'm a male and my

Guidancepartner respects me as a male and uses he him pronouns, that makes me a male. You said gay is somebody who engages in

Andrew Wilsonsex with somebody of the same sex. That's right. If you engage with sex with some um with a person who's a male who has a penis, even if they present

Andrew WilsonHang on, hang on. Even if they present as a female, by your own logical criteria, they would have to be gay. I want to put it this way. I think that

Guidanceyour questions are reserved for a specific subset of people who simply don't get it and never will. And that's just fine with me because those who do But you do realize that like logic has

Guidanceto be consistent or so logical. I feel like the human logic has to be experience is not quantifiable calcul. Go ahead. No, I have a a

Andrew Wilsonquestion about like the the words that you use. So you're saying is it gay? Is it gay? Is it gay? What no no wait. Don't lie. I asked her what gay means,

Shannon Daveydidn't I? Well, yes. And what did she say? I don't think anybody can hang on. What did she say? She said that it's having sex with someone of the same sex. So, it's not me. Hang on. So, then before you get into whatever you're

Andrew Wilsonabout to get into. Okay. I actually asked what her criteria for gay was and used that, didn't I? Hang on. Didn't I use actually what her criteria for gay

Shannon Daveywas? So, can I Hang on. Hang on. Didn't I Yes. Okay. Now, go ahead. What if we instead of using the word gay used the word queer? Okay. When queer

Shannon Daveymeans what? Quee means like having sex with people of either the same gender or a different gender than you, but it's still not like what makes you queer

Shannon Daveythough. In that instance, the gender part of it would make it not specifically gay or straight. So if I were having sex with a

Andrew Wilsonbiological female as a biological male, but she identified as being a male and I identified as being a female, we changed nothing. We changed no phenotypical.

Andrew WilsonHang on. We hang on. Stop. We So then all that makes it queer is that we self ID that we're queer. That's right. Cuz who cares about what you think or what you think or what you think? So then how does that word have meaning? It doesn't.

Brian AtlasIt does. It doesn't. Exactly. That's right. Perfect. What do you think about this argument, Andrew? If if when uh women who were lesbians told us we were lesbians, we actually said, "Yeah, what

Guidancemakes Brian not a lesbian?" Actually, he doesn't have a vagina or identify with a vagina. That's crazy. Are you a woman? Do you consider

Andrew Wilsonyourself about his identity that yet? I just got to ask, if Brian flopped out his penis and said it's a vagina and a woman sucked it, is he a lesbian? Then

Andrew Wilsonif he identifies as a Are you guys able to scoot over? If he identifies this way just a tad. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. So Brian identifies as a lesbian. He whips

Shannon Daveyout his penis. A woman sucks it, right? Mhm. He's a lesbian. Is he I mean, if he wants to say he is, it's up to him and the woman is doing it. He might be ridiculous, but then what are we

Andrew Wilsonpointing to here with these words? They're empty labels. Like me, I'm Andrew. I You guys all know that I'm Andrew. What makes me Andrew, though? What makes me an Andrew? If there was another guy sitting here, like, let's

Andrew Wilsonsay Brian's name was Andrew. There's two different Andrews, right? The label is empty then. It doesn't point at anything. It's just a label that says I'm Andrew. But if I wanted to give a

Andrew Wilsondescriptor for something like heterosexual, homosexual, I'd have to be pointing towards some behavior, activity, something, right? Something

Andrew WilsonI'd have to be pointing to. So what am I pointing to? If the question is labels, I I can't speak for any other No, it's not just labels. It's it's

Shannon Daveydefinitionally. If Brian says he's a lesbian, what makes him a liar? It's that he doesn't have the follow through of actually showing that that that's what he's interested in. What

Andrew Wilsondoes that mean? That doesn't mean anything. He's not dressed like a woman. He's not presenting. So only So you can only be that gender on that identity. So you can only be that gender if you

Guidancepresent that way. Nope. If you contradiction, we can move on. Are there transgender people in China? Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. Is it accepted though? Yes.

Wu (Cassie)Not widely. Not widely. Okay. It's providential, right? Like secretly. Yeah. Um I guess so. But there is a

Wu (Cassie)famous uh dancer as well as a comedian and talk show comedian who is like trans like she Okay. But is also hated, right?

Wu (Cassie)Okay. So, that makes sense. Yeah. You wouldn't want your family to You said a man dating a transgender woman is straight. Why do you think that is? It is all a matter of definition. Like if you say

Wu (Cassie)it's transgender woman, you already define it like define her as a woman. Then automatically like that person would be straight, right? She's right. It's just trivially true. So if you

Andrew Wilsondefine it as such, it would just be trivially true, but it doesn't point at what we're trying to point at. So she's right. Like it it would just be trivially true. If you said a woman is anybody who identifies as a woman, I

Shannon Daveyidentify as a woman. Then it's trivially true that I'm a woman, right? But it doesn't point at anything, right? We're not pointing. What's pointing? I because I understand what you're saying people

Guidancewho have that mindset because anytime we make a definition of anything, we want to point to the thing we're pointing to, right? Why does any human feel like they need to define or point towards any

Andrew Wilsonother human sexuality or communication if we didn't have definitions for what we're trying to communicate. Well, that needs to change. No, it doesn't. If I'm smoking a cigarette and everybody knows what cigarette means and you're trying to convey the information that I'm

Andrew Wilsonsmoking a cigarette, but I'm actually chewing gum. Does it make sense that you say cigarette for gum if nobody understands what you're saying? Unless you're chewing nicotine gum. Yeah. But they see what I mean like you just made

Shannon Daveymy point clear. It's that the reason that in this circumstance of the example you were giving before with the son and the transgender girlfriend, it's that you wouldn't specifically say is it gay

Shannon Daveybecause the person No, but he does say that. He does ask that what so I would say queer. So what is a woman? A woman I mean oh my gosh I have to get into it.

Shannon DaveyLike a woman basically is usually a person who is born with a vagina and the genitalia of what we typically would know as a woman. Usually

Andrew Wilsonis doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Usually you see it's doing a lot of because I know that there's people who Yeah. So So what is a so what is a woman like when we point to a definition we

Andrew Wilsondon't say usually right because otherwise the definition doesn't mean anything right? Like if I said if I said a camera is

Andrew Wilsonusually a a component base that a camera had but also an electrical board had. I'm not pointing at anything. So what is a woman? A woman is someone who has a

Brian Atlasvagina. Born with a vagina. Yeah. I can I ask a clarifying question on that? So uh you're familiar with the term neo vagina? Actually I'm not. Okay. So, you know,

Brian Atlasbut she said born with Oh, is that something like you did she say born? I thought I thought she was wi a woman with a vag uh with a Can you repeat it one more time? I would say yeah, a woman

Guidancewith born with a vagina. Oh, okay. Fair enough. What's a woman? Anyone who presents or identifies as a woman. Your definition has a vagina.

Brian AtlasSame. Has a vagina. Wait, just to be clear, uh, transgender women can get a surgery that gives them what they would call a

Joeyvagina. So, just want to clarify biological, but they would be a woman, a transgender woman. And I

Brian Atlasjust because I want to because I don't consider uh the transgender surgery, what they do, the bottom surgery, that's not a vagina. So, I just want to be

Brian Atlasreally precise in our uh our language here. Are you saying a woman born like born female at with a vagina or a woman who's born with a vagina and then a

Natalie Stavolatransgender who goes through the surgery is transgender woman? I what other people want to call themselves and do I Yeah, that's up to you to label. Okay. So, are you agreeing with her? I'm agreeing with the same. Okay. So, transgender woman is a woman. I don't

Gabby (Michigan)see a distinction between the two, but they're both women. Okay. Um, what is a woman? A woman is someone who either presents themsself as a woman or goes through the process to be able to present themselves as a woman because

Wu (Cassie)there's a different difference between sex and gender. Okay. And what what is a woman? Like a woman is a person with a vagina but like I know people are

Wu (Cassie)sometimes born with not with no complete vagina like interex interex interex like they have both like they can be herm they they would call those chamir or hemaphrodites

Wu (Cassie)I'm not sure about those case but there are cases that like their genes are like uh xxy no but I xxx but however they're

Andrew Wilsonsure they're still males No, they are females. As x ask x xx is male, xy is I'm sorry, xy is male, xx is female. But you can't have xxy. Yeah.

Wu (Cassie)Right. And things like this where you're still the opposite sex. Yes. But I'm not talking about that. What is a woman? Just define it.

Wu (Cassie)Um a w a woman is a person with a a complete vagina or like they have um

Wu (Cassie)problems with with their vagina but they like they were raised up like as a social female.

Wu (Cassie)Okay. So you're talking like a birth defect. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Um what about transgender women? Are they women? Um, like do they still have a penis? But

Brian AtlasI'm a bit confused because you said born you said born with a vagina. No, I say said with a vagina, I think. Yes. Mhm. Oh, you said they a woman is someone with a vagina, not born with a vagina.

Brian AtlasRight. Okay. So, that would include trans. At least in your view, that would include transgender women. Do they still have dicks? Yeah, they got they cover. Sure. Let's say they they get rid of the penis. Yeah. Then it's okay. Okay. Okay,

Brian Atlasthen it's one. Okay, cut one uh one followup on that. Um, can a male become a female? Well, okay. They can do whatever they please

Brian Atlasand identify with, but personally I just And hold on, hold on. So, I'm asking you a question. Yes. So, there's gender become a woman. No, no, no. There's

Brian Atlasgender and sex. So, I'm talking gender. Can a man can become a woman? I think some of you are going to say yes. If we're talking about sex, can a male

Shannon Daveybecome a female. If it's not about gender, no. Okay. Can a male become a female? I don't think I get the question. Can you scoot your mic that way? I think I do. So, the separation between sex and

Shannon Daveygender. Gender is your expression of how you identify. Sex is your actual like physical body. Yes. Can a male actually become a female?

Brian AtlasQuick answers if you can guys. Yes. If there are hermaphrodite and you have both inside of you. I'm speaking in generalities here. I'm not talking I'm not looking for like the I'm even willing to accept. I'm actually willing

Andrew Wilsonto accept the specifics. So if you think a mafrodite can become the other sex, I think that that's fine. Yeah. Okay. But can a but I don't think we got really definitive there. Can a male become a

Brian Atlasfemale? So yeah. So if he was like presenting but he has ovaries. Okay. Right. Yeah. But that's okay. But like, how about there aren't birth

Natalie Stavoladefects? Like an otherwise normal healthy male, can they become a female? He can't have he can become a woman, but female

Brian Atlaswith ovaries if you're looking at biological. What about you? No, no, not completely the same as Okay. I just

Brian Atlaswant to point out uh you are all of you who said uh a woman is this that you're all biology excuse me you're all science deniers.

Brian AtlasAll of you are science deniers. Biology is a hard science. It's not a soft science like psychology and sociology and economics. Hard sciences like

Brian Atlasbiology for example with established facts. It's not up for negotiation. It's not up for debate. Sure. Just to be

Guidanceclear, who's I think that depends. So for me, I would ask this. Why do you specifically you as a heterero married

Andrew Wilsonhappily as you mentioned man? Why do you care? Well, I'll dive into it and I'll show you why. Actually, this is a I'm sorry. I'm I know I was having a conversation. You couldn't help but in.

Andrew WilsonGo ahead. I feel like I kind of understand why. But anyway, so back to this conversation over here. I can't believe that you just bought it in while we were having the discussion, but you couldn't help yourself. But here's the

Andrew Wilsonthing. I think that that's a fair question, and I'll explain my position, but let's start with this. I want to show you something that's super important. Okay, in philosophy, we call

Andrew Wilsonthis an infinite regress. An infinite regress would be if I ask you in this case for like a definition and you give

Andrew Wilsonme the thing at that I'm asking about as the definition it infinitely regresses and I'm going to show you how this works in real time. So I asked you what is a woman and you said a woman's anybody who

Guidanceidentifies as a woman. That seems fair, right? Okay. Is she a woman to me looking at her sitting here? Yes. Am I a woman? No,

Andrew Wilsonbecause you definitely don't present and have stated that you are not. That seems that seems fair that there's distinctions between the two of us. So

Andrew Wilsonif I ask the criteria again, what differentiates me from her? If you say a woman's anyone

Andrew Wilsonwho identifies as a woman, okay, I'm a woman. All right. What differentiates us now? Well, despite the fact you became a woman 5 seconds ago, but I am now

Guidancephysically. What? What differentiates us? The physical characteristics of being female at this point in your transition, ma'am. That's a big

Andrew Wilsondifference. And so, and and and what are those what are those differences? Um, I don't see boobs. I don't think there's a vagina present. Then it sounds to me like when you say woman, you actually

Andrew Wilsondon't mean anybody who says woman cuz that doesn't give you enough information. It sounds like you mean there has to be other criteria there. Otherwise, how could you Yeah. Otherwise, how could you make the

Andrew Wilsondistinction? Because you you would tell me like you just did. You'd say, "Guidance, I'm a woman." And from there on out, I would receive. Yeah. But but why is it that you would instantly see her as a woman and not instantly see me

Andrew Wilsonas one? But the the same reason why you would look at me and say African-American and not Latino. That makes sense. So if I were to say like black definitionally, I might point to like skin. I might point to hair. I

Guidancemight point to all sorts of physical differentials, right? I would not say anybody who identifies as black, would I? Nope. Why? Because you can't really and truly choose that race is different

Andrew Wilsonthan sex. Yeah. Yeah. But hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I'm not saying they're the same. I'm just asking you this. I'm just asking you this one question. What would make me not black? You're not.

Andrew WilsonYou don't. You're not. So if you gave a definition of black versus white, you would be pointing to criteria which made a differential between black and white. But how is it that you can look at me and say how is it that you can look at

Andrew Wilsonme and say man, look at her and say say woman because you are. But the second I say but I identify as a woman. Suddenly those distinctions go away. That's an infinite regress. What that means is what is a woman? A woman's anyone who

Andrew Wilsonsays they're a woman. Yeah, but what is that though? Well, anyone who says they're that thing. But what is that? Anyone who says they're that. But what is it though? It's anyone who says they're it, right? I don't think the

Guidancepeople there's no one asking that question. Yeah, but that's what they are asking. I that is what they're asking. And so the thing is that's what y'all are asking. is what it is what we all

Guidanceare asking on that spectrum but it's super but no I know you don't care but it's super important to us men who are not happy with the state of males super important to us because to who's us yeah

Andrew Wilsonso the to the people who don't believe in the ideology there you go I think that of wait a second anybody can just identify as anything become that thing you say no they can't but when I say what's a woman you say anybody who

Andrew Wilsonidentifies as a woman I say well what distinguishes me from her this this, this, this, this, and then I say, "Okay, so what is a woman?" Well, anybody who identifies as a woman, you're not

Andrew Wilsonpointing at anything. You have an empty label. It points to nothing. I think because that's an Listen, I I want I want I want to explain this so that you know it. It's a logical It's It's

Andrew Wilsonactually logically facious. It's called an infinite regress fallacy. What you're doing is you're infinitely regressing. So you're just always saying the same thing but never pointing to anything. So

Guidanceif I were to tell you if I were to ask you what's a guitar and you said anything I point to and say it's a guitar. Have you told me what a guitar is? No. But I think most people when you say

Guidanceguitar they form an image of a guitar in their mind. So if you just say I mean you know hey if you want to play a drum as a guitar you can do that. But I think

Andrew Wilsonwe're I totally agree with this. You're removing the human experience from all that. It's only the human experience which can identify what is a guitar. Who can make a guitar besides a human? Oh, I

Andrew Wilsondon't know. Nobody. Nothing can make a guitar but a human as far as we know. So if that's the case when I say what is a guitar and you say anything I point to and say it's a guitar, you say that

Andrew Wilsontells me nothing. I agree you would if I asked you this question and just describe it for me. What is a guitar? an instrument with strings. What does it

Andrew Wilsonlook like? That's There's so many shapes of guitars. Yeah. But what do they generally at least look like? Long stick, strings, and a bottom part. I don't even know what you call. So, based

Andrew Wilsonon that, I can at least say that I can rule out everything without strings as an instrument as not being a guitar. Right. Sure. Now, we're getting Now we're getting to what a definition is.

Andrew WilsonRight. Sure. And that's the distinction between an empty label and a definition. When you say that's a guitar, at least I can point to what that is. When you say anything I point to is a guitar, that

Guidancetells me [ __ ] nothing about what a guitar is. So, are we so simpleminded in 2025? If we don't have a distinct description for a person, their

Guidancesexuality, their preferences, if we can't define it, it's not right. If we can't def Oh, no. No. I listened to you for a long time. Go ahead. If we can't define it, it's wrong. If we can't define it, it's confusing. If we can't

Guidancedefine it, it's not scientific. There are a lot of things in science and biology and history and art that are undefinable. You cannot define a person. And honestly, just blatantly speaking,

Guidancepeople like you do not have a seat at the table because it's not for you. We're the only ones who have the seat at the table. That that table is just for y'all. But I would think that I know

Guidancethat the people who are on the rainbow spectrum, we don't care. Yeah. But but y'all do. And it's interesting because I feel all I hear behind it to me is we

Guidancedon't understand y'all. So we feel threatened by that. Why? What are you threatened by by Does my fake penis really de do something that big to the male ego? Does that Does my strap really

Andrew Wilsondo that? You do understand. I guess it does. do understand us. It sounds to me like you're saying you do understand us and we feel threatened by that. So, well, it has it has to be the case. It has to be the case. Define us. Why do

Andrew Wilsonyou have to define us? Well, here's the thing. It has to be the case. All Yeah, logic. You can't beat logic. You can't put logic to love in human experience. You can't put logic unquantifiable,

Guidanceright? Logic is the one thing you can't ever refuse. Is love logical? Have you experienced love? Actually, love is logical. Yes. Or is it emot? It it can be and it's not. It is logical. No, we

Guidancewe just we just ran the experiment. It is logical. No, no, no. We just ran the experiment in front of everyone here based on swipes. There's no logic in a swipe. You get a five, six second, oh, I

Andrew Wilsonlike that. I don't like that. I like what I see. I don't like what I see. And then you get into the deeper. Hang on. Let me respond. Let me respond. Let me respond. Actually, there is. Not only is there a logic to it, but the whole

Andrew Wilsonreason we're having the discussion is about the logic of it. Just because if if you say um well, what happens Andrew is that there's an influx of emotion

Andrew Wilsonwhich uh based on these emotions, humans have interactive experiences where they swipe left, swipe right, blah blah blah. Well, that's within the compliance of logic. There's abs absolutely nothing illogical about that. saying I have

Andrew Wilsonemotions therefore I act on emotions logically follows. There is nothing illogical about that. There is however something highly illogical about giving

Andrew Wilsonan empty label to a definition of a thing you're trying to describe. That's completely illogical. I don't think the label can't I mean I don't history of

Guidanceit. We're not talking about labels. We're talking about defining a thing so that it can be even understood. At the end of the day, I don't care what the person I who the person I'm interact

Guidancewith, whatever their label or definition for themsself is, that's great for them. So, would it be fair to say you don't care about logic? I don't care about descriptors and which would be logic.

Andrew WilsonSo, can you even have logical interactions without descriptors? Heck yeah. How? And if you can't, then that is there a single thing that you can logically express without a descriptor?

Andrew WilsonAll words are descriptors. Yeah. Aren't all words descriptors? Yeah. But how do you describe feelings? With words. Yeah. Exactly. So all words are descriptors. When you say feelings,

Guidanceyou're describing I don't think we I think our disconnect is I'm not disagreeing with you as far as there are labels. There are definitions. There are words to describe

Guidancepeople. There are scientific terms and things to describe genitalia. None of that's false. 1,000% with you. I think my personal standpoint

Guidanceon that is none of that matters to those that it doesn't matter to. But to those that it does, that's great. It's there. If you want to quantify that information and use it in

Guidanceyour dating experience, like by all means. But for me as a person, the first thing I'm asking or looking for when I swipe left or right or talk to a person

Guidanceis not is your vagina certain biological. This doesn't But this doesn't answer the question. Like, how come I'm not black? I don't I don't know. You'd have to ask your mom that. You don't You don't know why I'm not

Andrew Wilsonblack? You don't know? I just want you to look me in the eyes and say, "I don't know why you're not black." Like surgery to I just want to make sure as black

Andrew Wilsoneither. I know. Yes, you can. American. Yes, you can do that. And did Michael Jackson get surgery? Yeah. Became white, I think. Yeah. But did he get surgery

Andrew Wilsonalso? Yes. And so the thing is is like if I could get surgery that would make my skin look like your skin. Am I black? That depends. Do I care? No. I mean I

Guidancethat is my is my question about whether you care or if I am black. It kind of is cuz if you ask the person who really debated that kind of thing with people and that kind of stuff mattered. Of course they'd have an opinion and they'd

Andrew Wilsonhave an answer. So, you have no opinion on if if I bleached or in some way changed my skin to be black. Would I be black? Your experience of blackness Mhm.

Guidanceauthentic or not, biological or not, is yours. My authentic experience of blackness is mine. Your experience as a newly would I be black or not? That's

Andrew Wilsonnot up to me. No, that it just doesn't answer any. You just don't answer question. This is the biggest problem with this whole ideology, right? Is like you can't answer a single question. You

Andrew Wilsongo, I'm not even you just go like this. You just go like this. You just go maybe. And it's like it tells us nothing about anything. It just literally because we don't care. I think it's only

Andrew Wilsonour age group and up that's really there's no nothing to get in the market. There's nothing to get. What I'm saying is objectively true and what she's saying is objectively nothing. So

Shannon Daveywhen you're saying if you suddenly got a surgery and became black tomorrow, would you be considered black by everybody? And the thing No, that's not what I'm asking. Would you be seen as black?

Andrew WilsonNope. That's not what I'm asking either. Would he be? So like if we're relating it back to gender and what am I asking? Start start with this before you straw man the entire position and [ __ ] it all

Andrew Wilsonup. What am I What am I asking? Started with gender, didn't we? Stopend. stop sping and just answer my question. What am I actually asking? And then I'll tell you if it's wrong what I'm actually

Shannon Daveyasking. Would you be considered or seen as black? He's asking is black. I'm not asking about perception. I'm not asking

Andrew Wilsonabout any of that. I'm asking would I be So, let me ask you this again. That's why I don't allow people to straw man my position with [ __ ] If I were to

Andrew Wilsonsomehow go through and get all of my skin reconstructed to look exactly like hers, would I actually be black or not? In my opinion, no. Okay. Thank you.

Andrew WilsonThat's why I don't That's right. Back to gender. That's it. No. No. That's it. Okay. The whole debate right now, what you just did was you demonstrated how illogical the entire position is of

Andrew Wilsonsaying, "But if I presented as a woman, you would be." That's [ __ ] absurd. by your own logic. Now, if you're dating, how would we know that you're not biologically blend?

Shannon DaveyI want to go off of your point with with that statement in regards to gender and kind of mapping it on to each other. If you decided tomorrow to become a woman and you didn't have the experiences of a

Shannon Daveylifetime of being a woman, I like no man does. Yeah. I as a cisgender woman. So then no man could become a woman. I'm going with your point here that I would be upset. So then no man can become a

Shannon Daveywoman, can they? It's for me now. Yeah. No. Exactly. All right. I'm good. I'm going to go off a smoke. And I feel like the whole

Shannon Daveyargument kind of takes away from cisgender women kind of rallying together almost for a certain type of feminism. Hold on. Well, you asked why

Brian Atlasthis matters. Yeah. Why this matters? I'd like to give you three reasons. And you might not agree with uh the gravitas of why they this would be important but can I ask also who why does it matter

Brian Atlasand who does it matter to it may be part of your answer but I think that's important yeah so I think uh the first one I'll give you will matter to everybody okay and that's the truth that that is the reason the truth is the

Brian Atlasso the that would matter to everyone and that's the first reason I would give you as to why it matters truth

Brian AtlasSo, are are we speaking in terms of like you're I'm speaking about the truth. I'm speaking of the truth, not your truth, not my truth. The truth. The truth of the matter in terms of dating though, right? Or we just talking about

Brian Atlasgenerally speaking. I'm speaking about that males can't become female. Males like that's biologically. Well, I'm not

Brian Atlaseven Look, I don't think you can I'm willing to grant that within the

Brian Atlasideology. I guess it's accept you can change your gender, but I I link gender and it's it's irreovable from sex in my

Brian Atlasworldview. Sure. So in my worldview, a man can't become a woman. And a transgender woman is a transgender woman. Mhm. But she's not a woman. Sure.

Brian AtlasBecause to me, in my my worldview, woman is linked to sex and it's it's ir removable. I don't think any of us disagree with that. Now, the second thing is is that I'll since it's a dating podcast, I'll relate it to

Brian Atlasdating. Uh I think that uh one transgender women have a duty to disclose to potential romantic partners. Agreed. Yeah. Because one I think it would be good for their

Brian Atlasown safety. Yes. So if you're a transgender woman and you're trying to date a I don't I don't like this term, a cis man, uh for your own safety, you should disclose beforehand so that they

Brian Atlascan choose whether perhaps for them they don't want to date a transgender woman. for their own safety, I think they should disclose. But if we start getting into too deep into uh well, transgender women are women and this is

Brian Atlasnon-negotiable, then it's like, okay, well, what is the do regular women have to disclose to men? By the way, I'm not a transgender woman. So, we get into

Brian Atlasthis kind of murky territory where uh there's less of a duty for transgender women to disclose. They might even feel like no, it's actually perfectly

Brian Atlasacceptable for me to essentially trick men into sleeping with me, right? Uh so I think they have a duty to disclose. And then also related to dating, what of

Brian Atlasif I as a man don't want to date a transgender woman, am I if if the narratives allow to fully manifest it manifest themselves as it relates to

Brian Atlasthis ideology, what kind of social repercussions are there when I have a preference towards not dating transgender women, but if on a long

Brian Atlasenough timeline it becomes determined like if if the greater Right now there's a massive culture war related to this issue. But let's say I'm

Brian Atlasin the minority one day, you know, and maybe the the leftists, the LGBTQ activists, they win on the culture war. And 90% of people are like, "That's a transgender woman." And you can't ask

Brian Atlasthem if they're transgender. And if you don't sleep with them, you're a bigot. And what do bigots deserve? Bigots deserve violence. Bigots deserve to lose

Brian Atlastheir jobs. Bigots deserve not in bigots deserve all kinds of repercussions both social and sometimes when it comes to violence. Isn't that what transgender

Guidancepeople have been getting for tens? I'll go ahead and grant so turned and now we're upset. Well, hold on. I don't think I don't want violence either. Right. Violence either way. I don't think that's fair. But I don't think

Brian Atlaspeople should be subject to violence for their dating preferences. But I could see some sort of scenario in the future where if somebody does have a stated preference of not wanting to date

Brian Atlassomebody who's transgender if that is bigotry, if we're using that metric as big bigotry, people are happy to enact violence to aren't on a slippery slope

Andrew Wilsonagainst bigotry. And then and then so that's the second thing. Hang on before you get into this. I want to bid the whatever podcast a do wait

Andrew WilsonAndrew. brought in. Hang on. I Hang on. I brought in tons of money. Hang on. Tons of cash tonight. I got to be fresh tomorrow for a debate. Brian got to be fresh. What if Mary goes and gets It has

SPEAKER_01nothing to do with that. I got to be fresh. Be fresh for a debate tomorrow. I appreciate Andrew. Can I hear here my pitch? Here my pitch. There's no pitch. This right here. This right here. This Are you going to delay the debate for

Andrew Wilsontomorrow? Okay. See you later, Brian. Guys, all of you. Wait, Andrew. I might be able to delay it a little. Actually, not [ __ ] got to delay. That's fine. All right, I gotta get some sleep. Everybody out there, whatever. We got a

Andrew Wilsonlong day tomorrow. Everybody out there at the Whatever chat, thank you so much for having me this fine evening. I appreciate it. Talk to all of you fine women. I take nothing personally. I've

Andrew Wilsonnever taken anything personally. We're here to debate worldviews and talk about dating and I really truly appreciate it. All of you have She's going to clip. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. She's going to be like, I made him rage quit. Go ahead.

Andrew WilsonSorry. It's all low, bro. It's all Didn't mean to interrupt your goodbye. Sorry. Go ahead. You're really trying really hard here, buddy. Have a wonderful night, my friend. Have a wonderful night, ladies.

SPEAKER_01Take good care of your tomorrow. I will see you tomorrow, Andrew. See, Brian, [ __ ] see, Brian.

Brian AtlasBrian. Just scoot it down one chair. All right. Um, so I was I was saying uh the third point the third point on this is laws. And I'll just ask a simple question on this then we'll move on to a

Brian Atlasdifferent topic. So the first is truth. The second is like dating since dating podcast. Uh do you think that we should criminalize uh say if if you were a dictator like do

Brian Atlasyou think misgendering for example uh intentional intentional so somebody refuses to acknowledge so somebody's pronouns it's a transgender woman and she my pronouns

Brian Atlasare I want to be referred to her as a she or a her but somebody ide excuse me ideologically differs from her

Brian Atlasyou and thinks that's not a woman, that's a man and refuses to use the pronouns and says you're a he, you're a him. Do you think that this should face

Gabby (Michigan)uh if used in certain circumstances should face criminal punishment or some sort of punishment? Not necessarily. I guess I mean it's hate. I mean I don't know that it's

Gabby (Michigan)hate. How's it hate? Okay. You're you're like you're saying they're purposely not using the correct pronouns or they did on accident intentionally not using the correct pronouns but not

Brian Atlasin a not in a rude way. You might say it's rude on the surface already, but not like like not in a mocking or condescending way, but like in the same

Guidanceway that they would say it's a she says he you're this person's like are you uh over this person in a place of hierarch like you're their boss and this person

Brian Atlasis it could be any scenario but they're not they're not like like intent when I say intentional they're not intentionally being condescending or rude about it. They're just like, "This

Brian Atlasis what I believe." I'm not saying it in like a snarky way. It's just like, "Felicity, uh, that's a she." But if she thinks she's a he, I'm just I'm not

Guidancelike, "Oh, she's she's great." If that makes sense. If you're her boss, I think then you have an obligation to your employee to use the pronouns that they are choosing. if

Guidanceyou're her friend or something. I mean, she can't really do anything or have any bad if you're the dictator. If you were the dictator, right? So, that's that's already in itself a problem. But, okay.

GuidanceWould you would you pass a law criminalizing intentional misgendering? Depends on who we the law is for. Bosses and CEOs and people of power. Sure. I mean, they haven't. Okay. But like me

Guidanceand you, if I called you a he, I mean, I hope you wouldn't care in the No criminalizing on this one. For me, no criminalizing. The mean streets of Santa Barbara. Oh, yeah.

Brian AtlasOh, god. Brutal. Brutal. It's crazy out here. It's wild out here. Incriminization can be like a fine or you talk about like jail time. Well, what? Let's start with just a fine. It's

Guidancea $500 fine to misgender. No, I misgender people by Well, I guess mistakes. Yeah, there's mistakes and stuff. I say no. Clearly intentional.

Brian AtlasSo, here would be the example. The person says, "Here are my pronouns." And the person refuses to use them and says, "He uh you know, he instead of she." Yeah. No criminalizing in intentionally.

GuidanceShould that be uh criminalized? Should there be a fine? No. No. Me and you standing on the balcony, I tell you, I'm a he. You continue to call me a she. No fine. me and you sitting

Guidanceright here on this podcast live and I have said to this group, I identify as a he him and you continue to call me she, her, you're getting sued. That's all it is to it. Oh yeah. But that's different

Natalie Stavolaand that's different than like criminalizing. Then it's like you're in liel, slander. Yeah. You're civil. Well, that wouldn't be liel or slay. No, it would be what would it be? Uh but yeah, but essentially that's a civil case,

Shannon Daveyright? So, are you in favor of civil penalties for that's on the individual in that situation like cuz it's a whole thing with IDs and passports now like do

Shannon Daveythey have to have it legally put on their stuff that they are that gender or are they cuz that's if it's legal and there's legal ramifications then you

Guidancecould just change it back like tomorrow. Is sex on our like why at this point is sex even on our IDs and stuff? We don't. But should it be should there be like a fine for misgendering?

Shannon DaveyI don't think you could bring it into law because like I was saying there's stuff with IDs and it like people don't automatically just change those legal documents. Okay. Yeah. It's murky, but I think that

Brian Atlasthere should be you can't get a fine for name calling. Huh? What do you think? So, no, I don't think there should be. What do you think? No fine. Well, what about this? Uh, high school students. Uh, so they're classmates,

Brian Atlasright? That would be a new context. Uh, should there be like um maybe a detention for a misgendering, intentional misgendering, or should there be maybe a if they they repeat it three times, should there be a

Shannon Daveysuspension? No, I think it depends on that person knows that they're causing harm. So, it's not even about the misgendering, it's about that you're intentionally trying to cause someone harm. So, there should be a repercussion if you're especially if you're in

Brian Atlasschool. Yeah. Could you would just make the reverse argument that by them using like if if it's just totally separate, maybe they're religious, you would be causing the individual harm because

Brian Atlasthey're causing themsel harm by lying. If they think it's lying if they don't think it's the truth, then you're inflicting harm on them. It does no harm for you to say he, she,

Natalie Stavolathey or them to a person. It just I think then we're playing the victim. There's that um playing the victim against lying and people are against lying. You can justify a lot of crazy [ __ ] if you go into other people's

Natalie Stavolabusiness and go you said this thing and I'm offended by it which is what we don't like. I'm offended by everything. You said this. You're making me do this.

GuidanceSo yeah, no fines. [ __ ] it. Uh okay. But um intentional harm is intentional harm. Like she said, if you know that a person

Guidancehas stated to you legally otherwise, I identify as such, what harm, whether you believe it or not, it doesn't matter. If they want to sit there and be a potato, let them be a potato. You're not eating

Guidancethe potato. You acknowledging that that person feels that way about themselves does nothing to you at the end of the day. It just does. Usually, if you don't like something, you just get away from them. If someone's an a-hole, you should

Natalie Stavolajust get away from them. If someone's misgendering on purpose, just get away from them. on their pizza. You're not going to So, there's probably scenarios where just for like the like simplicity sake, some

Brian Atlaspeople are really hardline with this. Like if I'm just not interested like in like a particular case offending somebody or I'm just not like it doesn't there's situations where I just don't

Brian Atlascare. Doesn't matter. I'd probably like go along with it just because like to avoid the situation. There's probably situations where like if you're a student uh in college and your professor is transgender, like that's probably

Brian Atlaslike you're probably going to have to bite the bullet just for the sake of getting a good grade in the class, even if it's against your thought process. But like I'm speaking, you know, outside

Brian Atlasof these uh outside of these specific instances, there are situations where or not rather not situations, but if we're having a conversation about the issue

Brian Atlasitself, and we're actually it well, is it a woman? I that's what we're talking about here. We're we're talking about the truth. Whose truth? Yours or that person?

Shannon DaveyI get what you're saying. saying there to a certain degree like we all have to live in the same society and we all do to a certain point have to agree on what is the truth. Yeah. I don't think it's any different than what like she had mentioned earlier. If it's something

Joeyyou're just not in agreement with or it's a situation that makes you uncomfortable, get out of it. Now, if it's like a work school situation, you guys you got to learn to to figure it out. Do I think it should be

Shannon Daveycriminalized? Probably not. What Brian's argument is is that in the war going on between our society of people who are in agreement and disagreement, let's say

Shannon Daveyhe's saying someone's in school, let's say you have a super liberal principle and so they're like taking the side of the student who's trans or using like different pronouns than they

Shannon Daveynormally would. So, of course, like you're at a super liberal school, maybe they're siding with that student. Whereas, if you go to a more conservative school, they might be telling the other student like, "Hey,

Shannon Daveyyou're going through some sort of like it depends on the the place you are in society." And like that's that is an issue I see long term in society is that

Guidancewe have these two opposing views and it is clashing. And how do we come together? I'm betting that we're all human and our genitals do not matter. At the end of the day, why why do we even

Guidancehave I'm not saying why do we have genders, but why is it who cares? Like if you put in your resume, I shouldn't be worried about whether you're male, female, or what you present. You're a human being. And I think when we come

Guidancedown to making those gender distinctions, that's why we're at war. At the end of the day, we're all just humans. It doesn't really we this is just us classifying each other like, "Oh, I'm not going to respect you

Guidancebecause the genitals you have don't match with your pronouns." At the end of the day, they're they're a person. Their experience matters and that that's it. It doesn't really matter what they have down there. I mean, it just doesn't

JoeyYeah. what they call it. I would agree with that. But I I feel like especially like in a maybe a school or work situation, you're probably going to talk to somebody more directly. Hey, can you do this for me? not he I think that there's there's really only particular

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