RAGE QUIT! Andrew Wilson! She WILL NOT Date A Man Who Can't Drive Stick?! | Dating Talk #176

Date: 2024-07-08

Duration: 8h 31m

Guests

Brian Atlas

KKylie Hansen >

AAmy (Amy Is Show)>

CChase Carson >

DDaria (DT176)>

MMorgan (DT176)>

HHannah (DT176)>

MMason Gregoire >

AAndrew Wilson >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01TTS / donation reader(audience)

SPEAKER_02Hannah(guest)

SPEAKER_03Chase Carson(guest)

SPEAKER_04Jess(guest)

SPEAKER_06Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_07Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_08TTS donations(audience)

SPEAKER_09Mason Gregoire(guest)

SPEAKER_10Amy (Amy Is Show)(guest)

SPEAKER_11Morgan(guest)

SPEAKER_12Daria(guest)

SPEAKER_13Morgan (off-panel)(audience)

SPEAKER_14Kylie Hansen(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteJess announces she is enlisting in the U.S. Marines at age 30. Explains motivation: lack of education, bartending at 30 feels embarrassing, wants structure and self-improvement.

“my name is Jess I'm 30 I'm from Bay Area California I'm a bartender and I'm actually enlisting in the military... I leave in January”

QuoteJess discloses that her partner of 8.5 years died in 2019. She spent ~5 years grieving and in therapy before recently entering a new talking stage.

“my longest relationship is 8 and a half years... he has passed away since then he died in 2019 and I had a very hard time moving on with my life”

OtherMason Gregoire introduces himself as "primarily a Christ follower" before listing his occupation as mechanical engineer. Panel reacts. He states he is pursuing Air Force Special Warfare and is training for it.

“yeah uh my name is Mason greguar um first and foremost I'm primarily a Christ follower my uh job is mechanical engineer”

ControversyMason explains why men prefer younger women: biological clock concerns, less emotional baggage, more open to deprogramming. States he would not date a woman over 30-32 due to accumulated baggage.

“I don't want to date someone who's over the age of like 30 31 32 because one they all have all of this extra life baggage... I want to have a large family”

ControversyAmy states she would "question the mental health" of men attracted to women 20+ years younger and uses the word "predatory." Brian challenges her, calling the statement pathologizing of all men. Extended confrontation.

“I would be concerned about their mental health why are they dating someone... if a man is 20 years older... you're praying on them”

OtherRAGE QUIT: Amy leaves after Brian calls her "retarded" during the age-gap debate. Amy had called men who pursue much younger women mentally ill / predatory. She dropped a prop, Brian escalated. Amy states she will not tolerate disrespect and leaves despite Andrew and others asking her to stay. Brian offers to apologize if she sits back down; she does not return.

“could I make a comment as soon as like why would you call me retarded yeah I mean here's the tone policing again”

ControversyDaria and Jess respond to Amy's rage quit, noting that Amy had called all men "mentally ill" and "disgusting" before getting offended at being called a single slur. Panel broadly agrees Amy's departure lacked consistency.

“did she not call you guys mentally ill and disgusting... she called all men mentally ill she called but you got called”

QuoteHannah describes kicking a 28-year-old man out of her manual transmission car for not knowing what the three pedals were. States she will not date a man who cannot drive stick shift because she does not want to be more masculine than a man.

“and he was like why do you have three pedals I was like get the fuck out of my car... 28 years old and not know what a stick shift is”

ControversyBrian produces a Wikipedia search showing "toxic femininity" redirects to "internalized misogyny" while toxic masculinity has a full article. Used as evidence of asymmetric treatment of gender topics.

“I did a Google search of toxic femininity and toxic masculinity and there's Wikipedia article for toxic masculinity but if you try to search for toxic femininity it redirects to internalized misogyny”

QuoteAndrew Wilson apologizes for leaving the show early citing an engagement in the morning. Thanks Brian, Mason, and the panel. Leaves before the show wraps.

“Brian Brian sorry to cut you off I got to get going I got an engagement early in the morning”

Topics Discussed

Introductions and Relationship Status

Host Brian Atlas opens show from Santa Barbara. Guests introduce themselves: Kylie Hansen (21, Denver, UCSB nanny/student), Amy (34, LA, podcast host + Army vet), Chase Carson (27, SB, hospital nutrition staff, bisexual), Daria (30, LA/Iran, tattoo artist), Jess (30, Bay Area, bartender/Marine enlistee), Morgan (29, East Bay, lash tech), Hannah (26, Maryland, web designer), Mason Gregoire (28, AZ, mechanical engineer/AF aspirant), Andrew Wilson (remote, debate host). Discussion of talking stages, exclusivity norms, relationship status, and body counts.

Talking Stage Norms and Exclusivity

Brian asks Kylie about her talking stage — does it bother her if the man she is dating sleeps with other women? Kylie initially says it would not bother her; panel pushes back. Jess and Chase argue against multi-partner talking stages. Mason shares his exclusive, marriage-focused talking stage. Hannah and others discuss initiation norms.

Body Count Discussion

Chase discloses body count of ~20-21 (thought she meant roster, not lifetime). Had 4-5 simultaneous casual partners. Jess criticizes the concept of a roster. Chase defends experimentation. Daria and others share perspectives on casual sex norms.

Toby Maguire Age-Gap Debate and Amy Rage Quit

Discussion of Toby Maguire (49) dating Lily (20). Amy calls large age-gap men mentally ill / predatory. Brian challenges her position on logical grounds. Andrew Wilson and Mason engage. Extended meta-debate on eye-rolling, respect, and tone-policing. Brian calls Amy "retarded" after she drops her prop. Amy rage-quits at ~2:22:40 despite offers to apologize.

Wage Gap and Equal Pay

Discussion of equal pay for equal work. Chase and Daria struggle to articulate positions. Mason lays out statistics: men work longer hours, take fewer sick days, take harder jobs, work graveyard shifts. General agreement that same-work same-pay is fair; wage gap attributable to occupational choice and hours. Morgan notes women in male-dominated trades can additionally monetize their rarity via TikTok.

Who Should Pay on the First Date

Brian asks each panelist who should pay on a first date. Kylie: whoever asks (acknowledges men initiate ~90% of the time). Chase: 50/50 (only been on 2 formal first dates despite 20+ sexual partners). Hannah: women should offer; if man accepts the offer he is socially inept. Morgan and Daria give various takes. Panel discussion of the asymmetry between initiating and paying.

Bear vs. Man in the Woods

Brian asks whether panelists would rather encounter a random man or a random bear in the woods. Most women choose bear. Andrew Wilson challenges the predictability argument. Hannah and Daria defend bear preference based on past negative experiences with men. Mason argues most men are harmless; bear has only two options (ignore or kill). Hannah challenged by Andrew on how to make fire without tools — she decedes she cannot.

Men's Masculinity and Peter Pan Syndrome

Hannah shares pre-show notes about men avoiding provider/protector roles causing women to become more masculine, creating a cycle. Brian and Andrew engage with the argument. Discussion of fake vs. real masculinity, controlling behavior, and absent fathers.

She Will Not Date a Man Who Cannot Drive Stick

Hannah reveals she kicked a man out of her 1995 manual transmission car when he did not know what the three pedals were. States she will not date a man who cannot drive a stick shift — "I don't want to be more masculine than a man." Andrew confirms his daily car is also a manual transmission.

Therapy Debate

Brian asks whether men's hesitance to go to therapy is toxic masculinity. Kylie says it is culturally imposed. Brian says he is skeptical of talk therapy except for specific issues. Andrew asks whether therapy actually cures anything. Kylie describes managing anxiety via therapy tools. Mason suggests alternative outlets (building things, physical activity). General discussion of therapy as green flag on dating apps.

Toxic Masculinity and Toxic Femininity

Brian asks whether toxic masculinity exists. Most say yes. Brian then asks about toxic femininity — same answer. Wikipedia search shows toxic femininity redirects to internalized misogyny. Kylie explains patriarchy theory and standpoint feminism from her UCSB feminist theory coursework. Panel generally agrees toxic femininity is underreported.

Feminist Theory and the Draft Debate

Extended debate between Kylie, Brian, Mason, and Andrew on whether feminism is about equality or equity. Brian argues feminism fights equality when it would benefit men (cites NOW opposing Florida's 50/50 custody presumption). Draft question: Kylie agrees women should probably be drafted for equality but hedges on equity framing. Hannah clearly states women should be drafted. Mason argues men and women are intrinsically different so equality of outcome is impossible. Andrew leaves at ~7:53:47.

Transcript

Page 9 of 10

Kylie Hansenexample I personally and I'll make it quick cuz I know it's late everyone's tired um one of my friends recently saw the doctor probably around 10 times like you said when visiting the doctor more

Kylie Hansenon average I think that's true I don't disagree with that she saw the doctor around 10 times she is a very she found out that she has a condition that doesn't allow her to digest food

Kylie Hansenproperly she went through so many tests so many different scans everything she saw multiple different Specialists she had to do a bunch of different processes in order to get this diagnosed a lot of

Kylie Hansendifferent testing in order for her to do this though she felt like sh symptoms were being dismissed by doctors they weren't being taken as seriously she felt that way what do you have any

Kylie Hansenactual evidence that they were yes I actually do because in one instance and this is just one example I'm not trying to speak on like I'm just providing one example I don't want this to be taken as like overgeneralization

Kylie HansenI'm just speaking from personal experience right now or my friends there was one instance where a doctor sent her a copy of her X-ray and she actually had to point out something on the X-ray that

Kylie Hansenwas irregular and the doctor overlooked it and she said said hey CU we're neurotic but because she's a he overlooked it because she's a woman she

Kylie Hansenthe doctor's a woman okay the doc did I specify the gender of the you said he I was yeah you said he as in the doctor the doctor was a

Brian Atlaswoman okay so did the the female doctor Overlook it because she's a woman I can't say for sure but I just don't I'm just saying I'm not saying causation correlation I can speak on the X-ray

Mason Gregoirething okay uh x-rays are notoriously difficult to read I mean Studies have been done um like if you give the same 50 doctors the

Mason Gregoireexact same x-ray all 50 of them come out with a different diagnosis so it's not that I I I have a really difficult time

Mason Gregoirebelieving that the medical industry is inherently biased against women um one one example I could think of for

Mason Gregoirewhy it's perceived that way is a lot of this data has to be just personal accounts personal feeling from the patients themselves generally

Mason Gregoirespeaking if I were to take a wild guess I would say men probably are going to complain about their care a little less than women will and pursue medical

Mason Gregoireattention in general yeah exactly so the the statistics would be skewed towards women suggesting they get less adequate

Mason Gregoirecare than men because men probably just won't care as much as women will so that that that could easily explain why um it

Kylie Hansenseems like the Health Care system is more biased towards men than it is women okay yeah just yeah and I think that you're I agree with parts of your argument I do I think that you've made a lot of valid points tonight yeah yeah

Brian Atlasall right yeah I'm just still trying to hear something where women are discriminated against I mean okay what about of the just in

Dariathe long hundreds of years ago when like Psychology was like first like starting and how like easily women would get

Dariacommitted for things that were called hysteria I guess I would want to see the rates at which women were they

Dariawer were usually treated for be sad and then get tossed in a crazy Looney usually usually was treated with

Andrew Wilsonmasturbation yeah and and Al yeah electroshock things like that committ was due to other factors generally not due to hysteria so the

Dariathing is is with with what you what you consider hysteria that's a specific thing right yeah I get that but that was like my example of saying that that's

Dariathat was things like just sadness or depression that could be cured by not having be sent to a Looney B and getting more crazier men were

Mason Gregoirealso whole idea of what you guys wereing on earlier just like Andrew just said that's it's selective you're choosing which anecdotes to pay attention to and

Mason Gregoirechoosing which ones to not pay attention to men also suffered from being thrown in Looney bins for less than ideal reasons so it's not an Evidence it's not an Evidence of the patriarchy hurting

Mason Gregoireoppressing women in particular particular it's just saying that a long time ago when technology wasn't as good and people weren't as knowledgeable about these things people got shafted

Dariaand none of those things and it doesn't matter whether it's a woman or a man it just happens because people weren't as smart yeah well none of those ideas at all got like passed down generationally little bit by bit turned into what a

Mason Gregoirereversion it is none of this is as deep as it was none of that is based on sexism though none of it's based on patriarchy it's just based on we weren't

Mason Gregoiremedically as Adept therefore men and women got the Raw Deal I mean it was mostly husbands of of women like that

Mason Gregoirewould send them I I would want to rates of you got to be pulling this [ __ ] out no way I don't know like essentially it just sounds there is there is some there

Andrew Wilsonis some truth to the fact that there is a there was a larger committal of women generally than men into a lot of these psychiatric hospitals

Andrew Wilsonhowever try to remember that uh psychology itself is a soft science and at the point in time that you're talking about it was literally pseudoscientific they were giving people lobotomies they

Andrew Wilsonwere poking holes in their head they were doing all sorts of immoral experimentation but generally it was not husbands who were doing um you know kind of these overtly committ This was um

Andrew Wilsonwomen women who were considered the leftovers so these were women who um outcasted used no no no they used to have houses for women they were they were basically halfway houses for women who got pregnant out of marriage things

Andrew Wilsonlike this they were kind of the drgs of society and they would be mostly pulled from them because a lot of them actually were mentally ill and yeah a lot of them did get experimented on that's true but this is uh this is again I'm no fan of

Andrew Wilsonpsychology I'm no fan of Psychiatry I think that it's a pseudoscientific Pursuit okay so back back to you so uh I still really haven't heard a compell

Brian Atlaslike anything compelling when it comes to women discriminated

Kylie Hansenagainst I would say that I've provided you with the examples that first come to mind for me those are the biggest ones in my opinion I know that you've pulled up data that disproves that I understand that right well so there yeah there's

Brian Atlasthe wage Gap there's the healthcare thing um I mean couldn't I just you know because feminism is a game of comparison men are privileged women aren't men are

Brian Atlasoppressors women are oppressed men have more rights that is feminism it is comparing men to women hold on so I could just return back to you I'll just

Brian Atlasengage you on the healthcare thing let's talk about Healthcare upon birth men have their genitals mutilated Healthcare

Brian Atlasright secondly uh if you look at who the cohort of people where uh experiment Al medications experimental procedures are

Brian Atlastest on this is overwhelmingly men and feminists will actually turn this around and say for example well all these experimental procedures they're tested on men so they men Faire better but it's

Brian Atlasnot clear to me if it's some sort of male privilege or Advantage for you as a man to be a lot of these men are paid for this wouldn't that actually be

Brian Atlasevidence of uh men fairing worse that they are resorting to have having experimental drugs and having experimental procedures done on them for

Brian Atlasmoney because they're so desperate for money you can experiment medically on me so given the case that for example just those two examples I gave you that

Brian Atlasthere's male genital genital mutilation on most men in this country upon birth excuse me most boys and that there's uh

Brian Atlasthe in terms of the how did that happen in terms of the distribution there's much more men who are experimented on medically than women so couldn't I just turn that around on you and saying when it comes to healthcare that men actually

Kylie Hansenhave these these specific negative Health outcomes yeah I think that that's a valid point that you raised when we're looking at genital mutilation that occurs within the US mainly right I don't it's not it happens in some other

Kylie Hansencountries but it does but the majority of it is occurring in the US I would say that that could be explained by that it's a cultural thing within the US and it's a preference within the US if you look at Europe for example they don't have genital mutilation at the same

Brian Atlasrates as the US what's the what's the male population of the United States I don't know over it's roughly 5050 I'm not sure I don't know the male population okay so

Brian Atlasit's over I what is it 160 million okay let's let's just assume that most of those

Brian Atlasmen maybe 80 90% of those men had a circumcision okay so that's a lot of men but that's women's fault I'm not saying

Dariait's women's fault actually like a biased because of I mean you know what I mean it's like why why are you coming in with the framework that it's either men or women's fault maybe you guys are coming up no no no no no we're not

Brian Atlasmaking that I'm actually yeah I'm not attributing fault I'm just saying if we're talking about these negative outcomes impact this group of people that's what I'm talking about yeah so I

Brian Atlasmean do you would you agree with me that circumcision is actually a gendered issue I would argue that circumcision

Kylie Hansenspecifically would be in the case of the US in other instances female genital M mutilation does occure in other like third developed countries it happens in different third developed countries not

Kylie Hansenat similar rates not at similar rates I didn't say that I just said it also occurs to women at different rates I don't think I was making that argument Co yeah it bad for women too can you say

Kylie Hansenthat it's bad for men I am not incredibly familiar on the practice of genital mutilation for men it's okay what do you mean you're not familiar with the practice like I know

Brian Atlaswhat it is but I'm not super super in-depth researched on it is what I'm trying to say okay I mean obviously nobody so do you think that I mean obviously that obviously baby boys can't consent to this

Kylie Hansenprocedure that's not okay for any gender to have to go through if we're talking about the United States United States I agree it's not okay for any gender to go through but I I want to make sure we agree on the

Kylie Hansendefinition of gendered issue before I make my statement right you would argue that a gendered issue is something that occurs to one gender at a much much higher frequency than the other correct like

Kylie Hansencircumcision yes like circumcision happens to men at a much higher rate so therefore it is a gendered issue right well no no it doesn't happen to men at a much higher rate it can only happen to

Kylie Hansenmen yeah I mean what how is yes circumcision specifically genital mutilation can happen to both genders right but we're talking about circumstan specific yes then I would say that that

Dariaspecifically is a gendered issue I agree with you on that I do but that has to do with the like medical issues men

Andrew Wilsonexperience more or no it's mostly it's mostly a religious Pastime for circumcision which which was indeed adopted culturally but if you're not

Dariafamiliar with the practice they cut the for skin of a baby's penis off essentially that's what happens and in a lot of cases it's it the downside of

Dariathat is like less sensation or things like that like have that I've read up on and have MH but what what is that like

Andrew Wilsonthe Rel Ran's argument here is that men overwhelmingly experience this they can't consent to it it happens to them when they're children and it seems that um as far as issues go for if if truly

Andrew Wilsonfeminism was about equally attacking these types of issues which exist um which are left on us by the patriarchy certainly gender mutilation of men would

Andrew Wilsonbe one thing but you never really hear feminists talk about it at all there's no policy prescriptions whatsoever which is ever advocated by them towards men they seem to just not give a [ __ ] cuz

Andrew Wilsonaren't the fathers also like in involved in that decision mothers well the thing is is this is interesting as single motherhood has been on the climb guess

Andrew Wilsonwhat circumcision still stays at about the same rate and so no mothers are every bit as responsible for this as fathers yeah I would that's and also

Brian Atlasaren't uh I don't know the specific statistics on this but I think it's OBGYNs who perform the circumcision and OBG YNS are predominantly

Brian AtlasI think predominantly women I would agree I think they are yeah and they're probably advocating if their if their patient comes to them well should I have

Brian Atlasmy um male child circumcised they will probably make a recommendation for circumcision yeah and I think that too but I'm not actually trying to point the finger I'm not actually even trying to

Brian Atlaspoint the finger at men at women I'm just saying this is a negative outcome that impacts men I misunderstood that part any but I don't want to linger the circumcision for too long but I I'm still again when it comes to

Brian Atlasdiscrimination I've not really heard a compelling argument and I'll just actually I'll just show my cards I actually think men have been more pressed than women okay historically and currently can I say one more thing about

Brian Atlasthat and no I'd actually like her to respond to my statement here I want to know like why you think that like I'm curious about your perspective yeah so I could list a whole bunch of things I could talk about the self- deltion rate

Brian Atlashomelessness men are much more excuse me much less likely to go to college uh I'm trying to think what are some of the uh I mean there's the circum circumcision thing that's very big but I'm actually

Brian Atlasgoing to hyperfocus and zero in on just one sole male grievance and that comes down to and I actually think that this one any sort of feminist argument is

Brian Atlasdead on Ral when it comes to uh at least from a comparison perspective so forc mil military conscription throughout history and current day I think is a

Brian Atlasbigger grievance that's for most of human history nearly exclusively has been placed on men is a far bigger grievance gender grievance

Brian Atlasthen really I would argue all of women's Collective grievances combined okay yeah so I mean I I'd be

Brian Atlasopen to uh hearing you actually articulate one female grievance that's greater than forced military conscription in fact you can have three you can

Brian Atlascombine three and we'll just add them up just add them up sure

Kylie Hansenokay and are we talking like present day but we're talking historical right now too yeah mhm

Kylie Hansenokay okay I would argue the exclusion of women voting forc marriage marriages and exclusion from like education historically okay

Brian Atlasso I should have just stuck to one but if okay if you had to pick I I can actually I'll tackle all three but if you had to pick one would it be voting it would be I think it's really

Kylie Hansenhard to compare these because but that's the that's the game of feminism women have it worse than men that is feminism I think that we have two different definitions of feminism

Kylie Hansenpersonally what's your definition my definition of feminism is reaching a point where like men and women can see each other's perspectives and work towards solutions that benefit both of

Brian Atlasus that's my personal definition of feminism I know it's not everyone's but but your your I mean you said you're taking feminist classes this whole

Brian Atlaspatriarchy Theory thing I mean doesn't that immediately paint men in the negative light not in all instances no I would honestly say that

Kylie Hansentruthfully here a lot of instances in my feminist classes we have learned how toxic masculinity also like hurts men and it does I agree with your points that toxic

Kylie Hansenmasculinity or I don't know if that's what you are arguing well I I don't actually even believe in that okay but you're AR I don't believe that you can

Brian Atlasjust be toxic as an individual but I don't believe that masculinity is toxic or that femininity is toxic okay I would argue personally from my

Kylie Hansenperspective I know we don't see eye to eye on this but I'm just trying to shed light on mine I would say that personally like I feel like my personal view of feminism does not discount the

Brian Atlasissues that men have faced when I well of course it does no it it it doesn't I can you can you state to me any instance where

Brian Atlasfeminism or feminist organization has ever advocated for men in some

Kylie Hansencapacity yes okay there's this one example of a project it's called what prisoners taught me about feminism right it's

Kylie Hansentaught by this one man Richie Etta he is an inmate out of prison right he was taught B Hook's feminist Theory really early on from a young age he taught

Kylie Hansenfeminist Theory to his prison inmates and he was able to teach them how through feminist Theory had toxic

Kylie Hansenmasculinity they had been I'm trying to put this into words it basically taught he taught them feminist Theory and they learned that a lot of their actions were being

Kylie Hanseninfluenced by toxic masculinity and a lot of their actions had led them to the decisions that they had met today like ended up in prison essentially through learning about feminism he taught them how

Kylie Hansento c just have a more well-rounded perspective and include the perspectives of both men and women and it reframed a lot of their thinking and I think that is one example of a feminist project

Brian Atlasthat so that doesn't that doesn't seem to be advocacy or like helping men really like you you can point to a prison how many men were in this program I'm not exactly sure a couple dozen men

Brian Atlasprobably more than so I'm looking I'm thinking more I was hoping for something more wide scale like mass movement I agree that there needs to be more I'm not discounting that that's why I have such a hard time don't care about men's

Kylie Hansenissues I wouldn't necessarily use that type of a blanket statement because I from the feminist that I have personally met I I just don't agree with that and that's me sping on speaking on personal

Brian Atlasexperience and it's okay if we don't align on that in fact I would actually go even further to say that where some form of actual equality between men and women could be achieved

Brian Atlasor some benefit to men could be actually achieved women will actually I shouldn't say women feminists will fight against it so for example in Florida this is pretty recent there was a feminist

Brian Atlasorganization I believe it was called I believe it's called now the National Organization for Women there was something to equalize custody between men and women if there's a uh it should be assumed

Brian Atlasthat there should be a 50/50 split in custody in Florida and feminist organizations actually fought against it even that even though that that would provide equality between men and women

Andrew Wilsonfurthermore um Brian Brian sorry to cut you off I got to get going I got an engagement early in the morning of course thanks for having me on guys I really appreciate it thank you appreciate it Andrew hope you have a good night y thank you was nice to meet

Brian Atlasall of you I appreciate the spirited back and forth Mason nice to see you again man good to see you good have a good night Andrew guys check out The Crucible uh go subscribe to uh his channel thank you guys appreciate it thank you for tuning in Andrew uh okay

Brian Atlasyou can hide that Nick uh also Brian to add on that I also we're GNA W we're goingon to wrap soon trust trust me um okay so I guess going back to what I was saying

Brian Atlasso feminists will fight against a form of equality if that equality in some conceivable way could come at the detriment of

Kylie Hansenwomen I think that in that example yes I can see your point in that my personal experiences though have not proven that okay

Mason Gregoirewell I guess so if you since feminism has progressed since let's just say the 50s 60s uh I think that's about when those topics were addressed or um the

Mason Gregoireterm feminism was coined uh since those uh I guess thoughts since their Inception the

Mason Gregoirenatural progression of feminism has led to the point where they do not care about men's rights or they will act actively oppose men's rights because

Mason Gregoirethat's a natural progression of feminism now I understand that your position uh that your idea of feminism is not

Mason Gregoireexactly that but feminism now and ideas in the past that have been uh posed naturally lead to the

Mason Gregoirepoint where it's either men or women it's men against women um so I just don't see I don't see how feminism actually provides solutions that uh

Mason Gregoirebring people together it's always seems to tear societies apart can I provide like a little bit of my take on the situation okay okay so in

Kylie Hansenthe past like forget exactly when the term was coined but it was coined relatively recently I want to say around 10 to 20 years ago but the term of the there's a subsection of feminism called

Kylie Hansenintersectional feminism right and it takes into account the multiple identity factors of women and how this influences their experience as women right before this a lot of times women of color and

Kylie Hansenwhite women were kind of pitted against each other it was not productive for the movement as a whole right M I would argue that a lot of women who consider

Kylie Hansenthemselves feminists are in a deep place of hurt from their experiences with men I have been in a deep place of hurt from experiences with men I have been the type of person to be like oh I don't

Kylie Hansenwant to work with them I don't trust them whatever D D and it's taken me a long place to get to the point where I I don't think gender equality can be achieved solely based with women I think that it does require men and women working together of

Kylie Hansencourse I think that sorry sorry my bad no you're good go for it I think that because a lot of women are in a place of hurt it's it's hard for them to

Kylie Hanseneven open up to the possibility of working with men or considering the experiences of as well and I can't say I'm for sure on this but I really hope that at one point more people can realize that the only way for social

Kylie Hansenchange is through Collective action in the majority and because like majority of the population can't just be like if you want social like all social

Kylie Hansenmovements in the past like civil rights like anything regarding that has been when the majority of the population adopts it finally and that's when it's been able to actually see progress I

Kylie Hansenthink that feminism will truly see progress when men and women can work together right but I think that a lot of women are just at a place it's not what it's supposed to be

Mason Gregoirelike what it well so even the way you framed it right there you've had terrible experiences with men therefore we need to address societal issues that

Mason Gregoireinvolve men no well okay not necessarily the same the same thing can be said about men and men in their experiences with women

Mason Gregoirewom I know I know guys well I know I have buddies in particular who have been absolutely their lives have been destroyed by women and I don't think

Mason Gregoiretheir experiences should be discounted at all the agreed so instead of I don't I just don't see any progress that can be

Mason Gregoiremade I don't see any progress that can be made if the I guess aggressiveness of the no no no no I'm I'm I'm saying I don't see how any progress can be made

Mason Gregoireif the uh if the movement um is based upon this other us against it's yeah it's

Mason Gregoireyeah US versus them so when it comes down to feminism it is very much we are being oppressed by uh male like a male dominated culture therefore we need to

Mason Gregoirecombat that male domed culture to achieve some kind of equality I don't think that brings about any kind of Unison or Unity sorry that's not that's

DariaI agree fully and I don't know if like what I'm saying is coming across I don't know why that's [ __ ] funny but that's literally what we've been trying to say is when it's equal I agree with your point that the US versus them mentality is isn't productive CU it's never is

Brian Atlaslike I truly think that's never but that is the anti or not that that is the Genesis that is the Genesis of feminism yeah but that doesn't mean it's men have it better we're oppressed women are

Mason Gregoireoppressed men are the oppressors patriarchy Theory doesn't mean it's right I guess what's the end goal of

Mason Gregoirefeminism okay well well true true feminism not this hateful I can I can I can engage with this so if it really is equality then we're trying to achieve

Mason Gregoiresomething that's impossible because men and women are not equal yeah but there's they're being Tre let's think about this let's think about and mentally equ okay can I I just want to complete my thought

Mason Gregoireif we're going to think about this logically there is no way that men and women can be perfectly equal take strength men are always going to be

Mason Gregoirestronger than women yeah take child birth men will never be able to birth children then we're doomed forever why are we try stop what I'm trying to explain to you why men and women can

Mason Gregoirenever be equal so instead of trying to force equality down people's throat when it be ached we realize there's going be certain strug that going to be certain struggles that women but we have

Mason Gregoireto figure out we have to be able to provide rights and freedoms that are equally available to all okay you're saying what I'm saying a no no I'm not saying what

Mason Gregoireyou're saying what rights and freedoms are given to men but not women that's that's all I'm saying if if we have that if we have that okay if we

Mason Gregoirehave that then why are we focusing on this issue that's not there if women have the freedoms that men do they have the same rights and freedoms that men do why are we pointing at something that

Mason Gregoiredoesn't exist when okay so if we really wanted to bring people together if we want really wanted to bring men and women together instead of demonizing one

Mason Gregoiresex over the other maybe we should just re realize that it's not that the issue is not there there is not an issue when it comes to me men versus women in rights and

Dariafreedoms I don't know how many I don't know how many more ways I can say it that like I'm agreeing with you but it's an out like the the view of feminism currently is still as if it was the same

Brian Atlasview as it was when it first started yes regardless outdated I've given my point I've given my point of view uh I I'll bring it back cuz we kind of derailed a little bit here so I made the argument

Brian Atlasthat I think men have been more oppressed than women okay I'm not really I'm more so talking to you I mean do you

Kylie Hansendisagree I disagree with your argument but I can understand how you came to reach your argument like I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it NE so I would assume then that

Kylie Hansenyour position is women have been more oppressed than men I've discussed this at length and I'd like us to move to a different question I feel like like our debate is kind of getting into the area of like beating a dead horse and I feel like

Brian Atlaswe've been well not I mean I haven't really made my case but then you can make your case okay so I I still would like an answer from you on this though I so if if you're saying that my position is wrong

Brian Atlasessentially you're saying you understand how I feel um then your position surely must be that women have been and are more

Kylie Hansenoppressed than men I have tried explaining my position and I just right so I'm just asking for an answer I have tried I've given you an answer in the past and you have done these things

Kylie Hansenyou've shown me how men are men face different forms of discrimination right and I'd like us to move to a different subject if that's possible well I haven't been able to really lay out my own position on this so okay then lay it

Kylie Hansenout and instead of asking me to answer a question I'll listen well that that that's the nature of this conversation I'm asking you questions I have answered a lot of questions and I'm really getting tired if I'm being

Brian Atlashonest I am not at the so I can actually make my argument though but you have to at least engage if you actually just answer the question I'd be able to move it on a little faster can we please move

Kylie Hansenon to a different question well I have we haven't finish the conversation at hand does the conversation need to have a natural end I'm I want to move on to a different question well I mean this is really the last thing I want to talk

Brian Atlasabout so I mean it's the final thing okay so there's not really anything I want to move Mo it on to like I want to have this conversation got to wrap the

Mason Gregoireshow it's already late M yeah yeah well okay so I guess adding on well well so okay go ahead you want to go ahead all

Mason Gregoireright yeah yeah I so if we we can go back and forth and play this oppression Olympics until

Mason Gregoirewe're all dead and buried it doesn't matter because nature is dictated that again I'm going to say it men and women are different therefore men's struggles are going to be

Mason Gregoiredifferent than women's struggles I don't even think we're I don't even think Brian and I are saying that it's like uh it's it's inappropriate that men have

Mason Gregoirebeen oppressed more than women in history I think because men uh have the I guess the overwhelming uh responsibility to take leadership

Mason Gregoirebecause of physical characteristics because of how men act what they're naturally cities are because we have more responsibility to do these things

Mason Gregoirethe punishment for shering those responsibilities or the consequences of uh failing in those U tasks are going to be uh I guess

Mason Gregoiredisproportionately uh efficacious towards men instead of women so I'm I'm I don't think we I don't know what Brian's point of would say about this

Mason Gregoirebut I'm not saying that like it's it's wrong that men are more oppressed by uh By Nature or have been more oppressed I just think it's a matter of reality and

Brian Atlasit's not going to change no matter how much we want to argue against it well I have a question to bring it back to my point do you think women should be subject to military conscription the draft I

Kylie Hansendon't I don't know I think that's a more complex question than I want to answer right now I don't know

Brian Atlasum if I told you that men are subject to forced military conscription they are actually I think now are automatically registered I don't know if it's passed

Brian Atlasno we're Once you turn 18 you're automatically now is it fully passed and cuz I think it had to go through it was got through the house but has to go to

Brian Atlasthe in any case men are the uh men are solely uh subjects of you know they have to register for the draft and in the event of a draft they would be

Brian Atlasthe uh solely uh subject to forced military conscription um given that do you think that women it should be equalized between men and

Kylie Hansenwomen if I'm being honest I don't think that men should even be drafted into the military in this sense okay well that's my personal opinion so but the current status quo is that they are MH and

Brian Atlasassuming that we'll never be able to do away with a draft would your is your position or is your position that women should

Brian Atlasalso be drafted yeah probably I do agree with that yeah okay so you're fine with women being drafted okay but you don't really hear you know it would be in furtherance of equality but you typically don't hear

Kylie Hansenfeminists arguing that women should be subject to the draft when I'm arguing for feminism I know we talk a lot about equality I think it's more of a question of equity cuz like you're describing I agree with you that the Discrimination

Kylie Hansenthat men and women experience is different like I agree with you on that and I think in order to remedy that equality is not the solution it's equity and it's more specific Nuance Solutions

Kylie Hansenwhat do you mean by Equity Equity it's essentially just accounting for the fact that people based on various identity factors exper have different experiences right like you have you face different

Kylie Hansenlike you face discrimination in a way that I don't right we could agree on that right so that way in order for us to for the playing field to be like more leveled and I hate using that term the solutions are going to be

Mason Gregoiredifferent like I think you agree with that don't you that the wait so then are you making an equity argument against the draft well okay so necessarily I guess my understanding of equity is so

Mason Gregoireequal it sounds what like what you're saying is my understanding of equality where everyone has the same starting point and what you do depend so uh how

Mason Gregoirefar you get is dependent upon what you do and my understanding of equity is that uh people's starting position will be different yes so that everybody will

Mason Gregoireend up at the same place so everyone's so people essentially it's equality of uh outcome versus equality of

Brian Atlasopportunity equality of outcome being equity and equality of opportunity so what what I mean when it comes to military conscription what would be Equity the current status quo I think it

Kylie Hansenwould also have to address the fact that men have been subjected to being drafted and like like you're saying faces for facing forms of discrimination that are different that is a form that's just an

Kylie Hansenexperience that men have had that wom stronger finish your statement solution would need to take that into account is what I'm saying so you're saying it should be women would then be

Kylie Hansenover represented no not necessarily I don't to if I'm being honest I'm a 21-year-old college student I do not have the answer to this question I do not I don't truly think there is a right or wrong answer I think it depends on

Kylie Hansenyour perspective there's not a right or wrong answer I in my view I do not have a singular answer to this question right now I do not but I mean if you're a

Brian Atlasfeminist and you believe in equality wouldn't it occur to you that the equal thing would be both men and women should be subject to forced military

Mason Gregoireconscription in the event of a draft I'm not sure I would to think about this if I'm being honest but what is there to I don't understand what there if if you hold if you hold like an equality of

Mason Gregoireoutcome as like you're we this is something we should strive for so in the event of a draft the outcome would be people regardless of sex being forced to

Mason Gregoirebe put into the military now if we in include sex into that argument then to achieve equality of outcome an equal amount of men and an equal amount of

Mason Gregoirewomen would have to be forced to join the military so you would be for that because you hold the value that equality of outcome should be pursued I think you guys rais

Kylie Hanseninteresting points I would need more information more time to process and like just research on my own in order to F to form a singular answer myself and I'm sorry if that's not satisfying to

Brian Atlasyou guys no I guess I'm just confused I mean it's it would occur to me that if feminism is about equality and here is here's a way in

Brian Atlaswhich men and women are not equal and it could be legislated fairly simply to just say women get the same treatment as men and would be subject to forced

Brian Atlasmilitary conscription in the event of a draft they would have to register for the draft the same way men do they would face the same consequences that men do when they don't register for the uh for the Selective

Brian AtlasService I it's just I I can't I don't understand how as a feminist and someone who's in favor of equality your knee-jerk reaction isn't to just say yes that would be that would be equality I'm

Kylie Hansenin favor of equality I think that women and I said earlier that I think that yes this is an issue that needs to be remedied it probably is including that

Kylie Hansenin some sense but I don't have an answer in the fact that like the equity versus equality distinction I would need more time in order to form that

Kylie Hansenopinion see it's it so I mean I I feel like I keep repeating myself and I feel like this isn't going anywhere if I'm being honest I have a quick question if I'm allowed to talk about that well I'm

Brian Atlastrying to I guess I'm trying to walk walk you to yeah you believe in equality you're a feminist how would it not be equality

Brian Atlasfor both men and women to be both equally subject to forced military conscription in the event of a draft are you saying that would not be

Mason Gregoireequality I'm saying that it's an could you just could you just agree that it would be an equal

Mason Gregoireoutcome if a draft were to happen and if we're were talking about equality among the Sexes would it not be just take out

Mason Gregoireall of the social political uh charge that comes with it would it just not be equal in the outcome if men and women both got uh military

Kylie Hansenconscription it would be equal in the outcome but you can't remove the social charge it's not how the world work I'm sorry the social what you can't you're asking me to remove the the layers of the what layers I don't want to get into

Brian Atlasthis right now well I mean when it comes to do you think that women should be barred from volunteering for the military no I never said that I'm not saying you did you I'm I'm not so I'm

Brian Atlasnot I'm not saying that you did but if you're fine with women being in the volunteer military then why would you

Brian Atlasnot also be fine with women being forced into like if there's a draft for forced military conscription like you don't think they

Brian Atlasshould be barred from volunteering from Mil the from the military correct

Kylie Hansenmy earlier point was that I don't think that anyone should be forced to do that and okay but but that's not the current system not but I don't okay so assuming in the world anyone to do that right but

Brian Atlasin a in a world where War happens and there's military conflicts assuming in a world where you could never get rid of

Brian Atlasthe draft what is your prescription there

HannahI have always pick it up another day believe in equality men and women should both be drafted women can always you be in supportive roles they can do loggy positions bfm positions whatever whatever if you're a man you can be

Hannahthere on the front lines it doesn't have to be the same job you can still have equality within being drafted men and women so yes it is possible the issue is

Mason Gregoirepeople people love talking about let's find equality of outcome but then when it comes to issues like this where it's obvious that men should be the ones fighting because they are different than women so you guys are stronger so you

Mason Gregoireguys should be the ones getting drafted so when it comes to okay so when it comes to male roles in this place when it benefits women you're all for it but when other effects occur you're all against it it doesn't make sense we're

Hannahall for it how does no when you sit there and you say feminis first off feminism is not for equality at all feminism is putting women ahead of men that's what it is that's what it came up as but that's not what it should be mean

Mason Gregoireit what it should that's how it always started if you want real equality both should be it what it is if it was really if it was truly about equality then this

Mason Gregoireshould be answered in an instant yes women should be drafted because then it would be then it would be okay that's fair okay yes but most most feminists don't like to say that because all of a

Mason Gregoiresudden it brings up all of these issues like okay well I just feels wrong because obviously it feels wrong it felt wrong for men to think that we could

Mason Gregoirepossibly be in a like the same role in a war like we're not sense that if we want to get drafted but yeah well that goes to my worldview that men and women are intrinsically different

Mason Gregoiretherefore they will have intrinsically different experiences they will have intrinsically different downsides to their life as a man woman yeah so it

Mason Gregoiredoesn't matter no matter how hard we try to work against that we will always have biology being a man or a woman that will dictate whe what our experience will be

Dariaso it it it doesn't matter we we can try to make that outcome equal it's impossible but she also did make a good point about their still being rolled with I I don't I don't believe in the

Hannahthe whole feminist [ __ ] but I do believe if men are going to be drafted women should be drafted again separate roles men can be on the front lines women should be supporting The Men We shouldn't just let them all like oh you

Brian Atlasguys go figure it out yeah ah well see here's where I even differ there for the actual pure sake of pure unadulterated

Dariaequality women should also be put them on the front lines on the front L if they're physically able to do it but apparently we physically that would be equality that would be equality that's

Mason Gregoireequality of outcome cuz an equal amount of women are getting slaughtered as an equal amount of men so the outcome is equal well that's what we're talking about we want equality if equality is

Mason Gregoireour ultimate goal then we should pursue equality in all things therefore we need to pursue equality in how many people die in War I guess Brian I'll be it doesn't make any sense snip therefore

Dariafeminism doesn't make sense why are we pursuing sense but the but this is the criticism their goal and what turned into doesn't make sense

Brian Atlasthis is the criticism of feminism is that is that it's not it's not about okay feminism is not about equality it's

Brian Atlasabout securing benefits for women if a form of equality in some conceivable way comes to the comes at the detriment of women okay and for example it would be

Brian Atlasequality for both men and women to be drafted but it would conceivably come as a new detriment to women feminist

Brian Atlasfeminists will not fight for said equality even though it is equality so of course feminism is not an equality movement it's if I can be the most charitable it's a women's advocacy

Brian Atlasmovement nothing wrong with with women's advocacy but let's not sit here and lie and equality it's not about equality

Brian Atlasthey would be advocating for of things that would conceivably at the detriment and to the detriment of women but they don't I think we're both equally skewed and this is never going to like really

Brian Atlasanyways I mean I'm I'm just surprised that the feminist here who's taken feminist classes just I mean it's she's also freshh and and learning these things she's 21 yeah all right she's an

Kylie Hansenadult I also we've been going at this for hours I'm tired I think that we have had very different experiences that have shaped different viewpoints I've explained my position you guys have explained yours I don't think a resolution is going to be

Brian Atlasreached I think what would our experiences I haven't been drafted for War I I'm not sure your perspective but how would how would our lived

Brian Atlasexperiences have anything to do with what what is a hypothetical scenario where there's a a draft granted there are actually tangible things like had to

Brian Atlasregister for the Selective Service and able to get the right to vote you don't if I didn't register for the Selective Service I would face all sorts of penalties I would be barred from certain

Brian Atlasfederal jobs there's fines I could be prosecuted uh what else there's also uh you can't get certain student loans

Brian Atlasfederal uh student loans for example you can't get certain government jobs so what the I'm confused why our lived

Brian Atlasexperience have anything to do with you being able to acknowledge that women like I'm just confused as a feminist you seem to be in favor of

Brian Atlasequality why can't you just say women should be subject to uh the draft the same way men are I think that you want to get an answer out of me that's the answer that you want to hear and I don't

Mason Gregoirethink we're going to reach a resolution I think we just want we just want logic to be applied to this specific scenario okay and

Mason Gregoirewell it's cuz we're engaging with a logical conclusion that if feminism is really truly about equality then in the most extreme cases it should still be

Mason Gregoireabout equality we've proven that it's not because anytime we've had this conversation multiple times with many women anytime we bring up this instance it's like pulling teeth you cannot get

Mason Gregoirepeople to be logical about this you can't get feminists to be logical about this because it's it's the most extreme example of equality and they will not agree that it should be equal because

Mason Gregoirethey will try to jump through all these hula hoops andity yeah it's it's all this crazy uh not many OB acrobatics and it's

Mason Gregoireoh my gosh it's so exhausting cuz all we want to do just follow the logical Trail and it's impossible to do so well I mean you agreed you agreed you agreed to the

Brian Atlaslogic that if we really wanted to be free then it equal then are you willing to are you willing to if I ask you the question are you willing to concede that feminism is not about equality I think that feminism is about

Kylie Hansenequity and I think I mentioned that earlier I'm a little confused what the difference between equity Equity takes into account the fact that due to different identity factors people have

Brian Atlasdifferent experiences MH so what what would prude what would women actually I think make excellent snipers what would preclude a woman from being drafted to be a sniper I would love that I have not

Kylie HansenI am not familiar enough with the military to engage in this discussion and we're not going to reach a resolution I'm sorry okay well I mean it's a little shifting goalpost though so I mean couldn't we just return this

Brian Atlasthis Equity thing I mean you mentioned the wage Gap um I mean wouldn't there be perhaps Equitable reasons for why that exists even though it's been debunked on the show I have explained my point of view

Brian Atlasyou've explained your can I ask you okay so if a coration said can I ask you a question so if a corporation said for Equity reasons we've determined that men should be paid more than women for Equity reasons would you think that

Kylie Hansenthat's that's fair no personally not but we're not going to reach a resolution I don't think we but it is fair to say it is and that's okay I'm fine with that can you please be fine with that too that we're

Brian Atlasjust not going to see I I think but why why is it Equity only to the benefit of women Equity should be to the benefit it's it considers everyone but I I have

Mason Gregoiretold you guys that I am tired I don't think we're we understand but like it's like you're using your your physical exhaustion

Mason Gregoireto to not engage with a logical argument we're just asking like simple can you follow this logical Trail and agree that it's

Mason Gregoirelogical and you just will not do that and it's like and it's not just you it's pretty much every feminist I've ever talked to is unable to do that I don't

Mason Gregoireunderstand why it's so difficult cuz I I can engage with a logical argument I can if if someone provides me with logical arguments for why my point of view is wrong I am able to walk down that

Mason Gregoirelogical trail with them and agree with them okay that's logical that's logical if equality is really what I'm looking for or Equity is really what I'm looking for I can walk down this logical trail

Mason Gregoireand I can agree with you or I can find a place where your logic def deviates from my logic and we can discuss that this has not been that it you have not been

Mason Gregoireable to provide us where our logic is flawed it's always come down to either I'm tired or it's complicated I can't

Mason Gregoireexplain it if you can't explain it I just I don't know why you have such a strong opinion on the on the matter when obviously our opinion has been a

Mason Gregoirelot more logical we've been able to draw more logical conclusions I just don't that's what's mind-numbing over here that's why we're trying to push this subject so heavily because well there's

Brian Atlasthere's also a bit of uh Shifting the goalpost so when it suits when it suits you as a feminist you want equality but when it doesn't suit you you want Equity

Brian Atlasyou want to pick and choose when to apply equality and when to apply equity which I find interesting in any case I don't think we're going to get really any Eng on this it was an interesting

Brian Atlasconversation um so I think we're going to wrap up the show this has been a very long uh it has been super [ __ ] God damn I wanted it in out okay all right well uh

Brian Atlaswith that said though it was very interesting tangling with you on this interesting hearing your guys' perspectives that's I want you to know even though we disagree uh I I thought you were actually it made for an

Brian Atlasinteresting show if people just agree with everything things can be kind of dull or if they provide no push back so I actually want to commend you for being able to uh for providing push back on my

Brian Atlasworldview I think on Mason's world viw if everyone just agreed with us it would be rather it be boring it would be a dull Affair so um you can't expect everyone to agree on everything it's just just part of the human condition and I I appreciate you guys being civil

Brian Atlasand I appreciate you guys sharing your perspectives I found them very interesting yeah so uh I do yes certainly want to uh thank you for uh and obviously ly I hold even though we

Kylie Hansendisagreed hold no uh ill will towards you I don't hold any cool cool Co awesome of course yeah anyways we're going to try to get everybody out here where's Moda she just back there I'm

Brian Atlasgoing to wrap the show come say bye or did she is she just she's doing a to to in the to I know I don't know she came back from the bathroom and she was

Brian Atlas[ __ ] zooed okay all right uh Morgan two chats we'll have you read them and then uh seeing conversations like this take take place I have become more

Brian Atlasconvinced that the oh sorry go ahead go 19th Amendment needs to be repealed bro that's good thing you're not the queen of the USA desert Joe you are a sexist and a

Brian Atlasmisogynist I disavow this statement I do think women should be able to vote hey that's something we agree upon yeah but I also think they should be forced into the military and also be forced to die and [ __ ] but

Brian Atlasthat's you know does that make me more of a feminist or more of a misogynist it makes you a feminist oh okay all right uh and then Morgan once

Morgan (off-panel)more on this one uh you can't hyphenate a word and change the RO meaning of the word toxic Behavior has nothing to do with masculinity being masculine isn't toxic you're being gaset

Brian Atlasladies okay thank you Ben George appreciate a pro thank you buddy uh she's nice BR if not not Equitable or logical okay thank you Ben

Brian Atlasoh whoops I meant to pull this one up so draft the F out of women Dei let's be Equitable think of it as re reparations for men being that's you know what that

Brian Atlaswould be Equitable is actually for the next thousand years only women only women get to go to war and do the fighting you know I think that's that

Hannahwould be Equity actually it shouldn't be equal draft it should be do you know how America would just disappear you you talk to women you talk to women on a

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