Andrew Wilson DEBATES Amouranth! CRASH OUT Kylie Update?! Woke College Feminists! | Dating Talk #268
Date: 2025-11-10
Duration: 7h 48m
Guests
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_02Willow(guest)
SPEAKER_03Lola(guest)
SPEAKER_05Courtney(guest)
SPEAKER_06Shona(guest)
SPEAKER_07Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_08Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_10Melissa (Bodybuilder)(guest)
SPEAKER_11Jake(guest)
SPEAKER_12Nick Lee(guest)
SPEAKER_13Amouranth(guest)
SPEAKER_14Savannah(guest)
Key Moments
00:02:44
IntroAll panelists introduce themselves including Amouranth, Nick Lee, and Andrew Wilson
00:17:00
Key MomentAmouranth/Nick tell full home invasion story. Nick shot invader with 9mm while wife was held hostage.
00:28:00
QuoteAmouranth reveals gross OnlyFans earnings of ~$74-75 million
00:30:12
ControversyDiscussion of Amouranth's vagina yeast beer made by Polish company and bath water sales
01:39:00
Key MomentAndrew and Willow debate whether OnlyFans is prostitution. Andrew: only difference is a screen.
02:22:00
Key MomentAndrew presents force doctrine to Shona: men monopolize force, women can never collectively take rights from men.
03:00:00
Key MomentDeep moral objectivism debate. Andrew: without God, if men decide women are cattle, there's no justification against it.
03:26:00
ControversyCourtney argues women should call partners 'master.' Most panelists reject this.
06:10:00
ControversyCourtney reveals ex-husband's suicide-by-cop. She texted 'you are the cancer' day he died. Family barred her from funeral.
07:15:00
QuoteAmouranth: 'I hate sex work too. I just like the money from it a lot.'
07:18:00
AgreementShona explicitly agrees men are primary victims of war by metric of death
07:22:00
QuoteMelissa's coconut oil story: refused extra fats even during sex because of macros
“He went to put coconut oil on his dick and I was like that's way too many fats.”
Topics Discussed
00:02:44
Guest Introductions and Relationship Status
All panelists introduce themselves. Includes Amouranth/Nick, Andrew Wilson, Shona (18, UCSB), Lola, Willow, Melissa (IFBB pro), Savannah, Courtney.
00:17:00
Amouranth Home Invasion
3 armed men broke in seeking crypto. Nick shot one with 9mm. All 3 caught, face 5-999 years in Texas.
00:26:30
OnlyFans Earnings
Amouranth grossed ~$74-75M on OnlyFans. Peak $30M/year. Quarter-million-dollar single day. Vagina yeast beer by Polish company.
01:39:00
Prostitution Definition Debate
Andrew argues all sex work is prostitution. Willow distinguishes between prostitutes (with pimps) and sex workers (with choice).
02:21:00
Force Doctrine and Feminism
Andrew presents force doctrine: men monopolize force, so women always appeal to men for rights. Shona pushes back. Andrew counters with Middle East/Afghanistan examples.
03:00:00
Objective vs Subjective Morality
Deep philosophical debate. Andrew: without God, all moral claims reduce to preference. Lola argues for biological instincts.
03:26:00
Women Should Call Men Master
Courtney advocates women calling partners 'master.' Panel debates who gets tiebreaker in marriage disagreements.
04:12:00
Crash Out Kylie Update
Update on guest who claimed she was 'digitally assaulted' and threatened to sue Brian.
04:29:00
Self-Rating Looks
Most women rate 8-10. Andrew and Brian find it delusional. Discussion of objective vs subjective beauty.
06:00:00
Income Requirements
Shona: six figures. Amouranth pre-fame: $60K. Lola: doesn't matter. Melissa: $250K. Savannah: $50K.
06:10:00
Courtney's Ex-Husband Suicide
Ex died by suicide-by-cop. She texted 'you are the cancer' day he died. Told him 'you could be anyone' during oral sex. Family barred her from funeral.
06:35:00
Women Are Primary Victims of War
Andrew: death is worse than trauma, men die overwhelmingly more. Shona eventually concedes men are primary victims by death toll.
07:11:00
Body Count Reveal
Melissa ~30. Savannah ~13. Willow ~30. Lola 4. Shona 0. Andrew's husband says 'wild 20-25.'
Transcript
Page 3 of 8
02:00:10
Brian Atlasto perhaps even both escorts and prostitutes. But if we're talking about a prostitute who doesn't have a pimp, like do you acknowledge a prostitute cannot have a pimp? >> Yeah. >> Into the mic, please. >> Yeah. Sorry. I'm just getting really
02:00:22
Willowstressed. I'm just I'm starting to have anxiety. I'm not trying to be like that. I'm just starting to feel stressed. >> Okay. Can a prostitute not have a pimp? >> Yes. >> Can a prostitute do uh do prostitution consensually?
02:00:35
Willow>> No. And I meant no for the first one. Sorry, I'm getting stressed out. I don't need to >> dis all prostitutes have pimps. >> Yes, all prostitutes do have pimps.
02:00:47
Brian Atlas>> So, wait. only. So if you So if there is no pimp, then you immediately fall into the category of escort. >> Escorts are more higher class
02:00:59
Willowprostitutes. They go out with higher class men. They get they wear different clothes. They get higher more they some escorts get to go to like events and they get paid to pretend to be somebody and all sorts of escorts aren't just
02:01:12
Andrew Wilsonlike sex workers in hotels and stuff. >> But that's what I I guess I don't understand. Maybe you can help me out. Um, if like let's say you're walking down the street, like some guy's just walking down the street and this a chick who has
02:01:22
Andrew Wilsonno pimp at all is like, "Hey baby, I'll give you a [ __ ] for 50 bucks and he gives her the 50 bucks and gets the blowjob." Right. And then uh she just keeps the money. There's no pimp. Under
02:01:36
Willowyour definition, she wouldn't be a prostitute. >> You'd be a sex worker or a hooker? >> A hook. >> A hooker. >> Because she's hooking. >> Yeah. Hooking. You get you get to keep Yeah, that's different. You're on the
02:01:48
Willowbottom of the barrel, but you don't have a prostitute. You make that by toy. Or a pimp, you make that by choice. >> But that's not prostitution to you. >> It's sex work. And I think that we're getting the disconnect is I like your umbrella for it all is prostitution. My
02:01:59
Andrew Wilsonumbrella for the definition is sex work. That's our only disagreement. >> Yeah. But I think I think that the semantic disagreement is just based around stigma, don't you? Like the idea is again you just want a reduction in
02:02:11
Andrew Wilsonstigma and so you haven't I would consider it to be an ahistoric standard but that's what I think is going on. I think that the distinction definition is you want a reduction in stigma and I think it's actually good to stigmatize
02:02:23
Andrew Wilsonthis stuff. And so I'm not going to call it and I see this language kind of like this language thing happen often times when I'm dealing with people who are um either more progressive left. I'm not
02:02:33
Andrew Wilsonsaying you are, but I do see it a lot where they'll kind of try to redefine uh things and the understandings of things to make them less impactful than what they actually are in order to
02:02:44
Andrew Wilsondestigmatize behaviors that really don't align with people's values very well. And then those become like cuss words. Like saying prostitute becomes a swear, you know? It's like it's not though. It's it's a descriptive it's it's a
02:02:58
Andrew Wilsondescriptor for an activity that's actually happening. Now, you can have whatever definition you want. that's fine, right? Like um you can have a definition that doesn't agree with a dictionary definition and that's fine. And I even think your definition is
02:03:10
Andrew Wilsonconsistent with what it is that you're talking about, right? So definitionally it's fine. I just think that the idea that we that lowering stigma by just calling prostitution sex work when it's
02:03:22
Willowprostitution is just that. And then that's where I think the disconnect actually is. >> I can agree. I think the reason I focus on that so heavily is again I'm starting a nonprofit for this stuff and the point
02:03:32
Willowis creating a safe space of like destigmatizing the suffering of what some people are going through. It's like um if you put an only fans model and somebody who's like literally like being slaved away in a motel for their life
02:03:44
Andrew Wilsonand like was kidnapped. Like those are two different things and when you're focused on trying to create safe spaces >> I just think that's a bad example because again I think even definitionally you would agree with me
02:03:55
Andrew Wilsonthat's slavery. Double them up. They're so good. It's so good. Doubled. I'm telling you. >> How much? How much? >> That's what I It's six. >> I'm gonna go one. >> All right. >> What is that?
02:04:06
Brian Atlas>> It's a >> So, really quick. Really quick. Four. Four terms if you can define them. Prostitute, [ __ ] escort, hooker. >> You say prostitute, [ __ ] escort, hooker. >> Four terms. How do you define those four
02:04:20
Willowterms? >> And a prostitute would be somebody with a pimp who gives up their money. A hooker would be somebody with no pimp who can make has a little bit more choice, but they're more bottom of the barrel. Maybe they're on the streets. Um, a [ __ ] I don't I'm not the biggest fan of that term, but that's just
02:04:33
Willowsomebody who like sleeps around by choice, I guess. You know what I mean? It's like what's it's like money. [laughter] >> I thought that was a sl Yeah, I guess. Things I've never really considered. >> So, should that be even lower? Is that like But
02:04:46
Willow>> that's like the bottom. >> Yeah, I guess I've never considered the horror term of sex. It's just been [ __ ] or [ __ ] in like my generation. It's like the same thing. >> Can I ask you a question? Can a woman be convicted of the crime of prostitution
02:04:59
Willowwithout having a pimp? >> Oh, yeah. I totally >> So then a woman can be a prostitute. >> Well, that's illegal legally. They they don't have as many umbrella terms for it. So yes, when you're getting charged with a crime, that is what it's
02:05:11
Amouranth>> I won't linger on this definition. So, if OF girls don't get arrested for prostitution, doing only stuff like in their room, not meeting up with people, then does the law define it legally as prostitution still?
02:05:24
Andrew Wilson>> That's a good question. I'm actually not sure that it does or doesn't because it's legal, right? >> It's it's legal. >> Yeah, this is legal. So, uh, but I think if it was illegal, then the law would, right? It would define it under
02:05:37
Andrew Wilsonprostitution, >> right? But then the law is defining as not prostitution then. >> Well, no, it's just defining it as legal. It's not making the definition of prostitution or not prostitution one way or the other. It's just saying it's illegal activity. >> Illegal, right?
02:05:49
Nick Lee>> Well, >> it depends on the state. Yeah. But generally speaking, it is. Yes. >> But so in the states, I guess, where it uh is illegal, but only fans is legal, which is all the states.
02:06:01
Andrew Wilson>> It's a different It's a the government is presupposing a different definition, right? >> Yeah. But they do that with porn, too. Or Yeah. Literally pornography, too. So like, oh, now you're getting paid. You're so like
02:06:14
Andrew Wilsonlet's say that you had a a guy who was like cruising to pick a chick up and and sleep with her. Okay. >> And he and for money, he's looking for a prostitute. You would agree that that's a prostitute. If he like pulls up and
02:06:26
Andrew Wilsonhe's like, "Hey baby, hop in. I'll give you 100 bucks and we'll have sex together." >> That's prostitution at the very least, right? Yeah. Okay. But why wouldn't it be prostitution if he pulls up? He's like, "Hey baby, I'm going to give you 100 bucks and we're
02:06:38
Andrew Wilsongoing to have sex and I'm going to film it and like now it's not like you see how absurd that is." Yeah. >> So the thing is is like uh that would still be prostitution even though under the law it might be legal. Do you see what I mean?
02:06:51
Nick Lee>> I would say your intent part would play in and >> I don't think it would be because the intent part, right? the intent was not, you know, in theory because if they're just saying that to get >> part is to have sex for money.
02:07:04
Andrew Wilson>> Well, to make uh uh content, >> right, >> well, to make profit off of it, but ultimately the woman is selling sex in exchange for money. She's prostituting. >> You lose more um by trying to put them
02:07:15
Nick Leeall in a category versus like, you know, uh just saying what they are. Like even adding an e in front of it, like, you know, if you wanted to say e prostitution, like that's way more like uh descriptive and and granular. Like I know exactly what you're trying to say,
02:07:28
Andrew Wilsonright? Where you say prostitution, I have to think like, wait, okay, >> I actually so I agree in a sense and the last thing I'll say on it, Brian, I would just say that I would put I would put this definition under the idea of it's all prostitution and then within
02:07:40
Andrew Wilsonthe confines of that, there's oststitution, there's escorting, there's stripping, there's this. And I do think that that captures the idea fairly well. Like if I'm like, that chick's a prostitute, right? and you say, "Well,
02:07:53
Andrew Wilsonwhat does uh does somebody pick her up and pay her to have sex with her?" And you go, "No, she takes her clothes off online and masturbates." I don't think that they're going to argue. I think you're going to be like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, she's a prostitute." That's what I think
02:08:05
Brian Atlas>> since uh it came up briefly. We won't linger on it long, but the topic did come up earlier, really quick on Charlie Kirk. We had you on the show. We had you on the show, Lola, uh shortly after uh that. Did you guys have any further
02:08:17
Shonathoughts on on that topic? No further thoughts since then. I mean, overall, I I don't agree with a lot of his rhetoric, but I respect like I mean, I respect anyone having the ability to share their political thoughts, and I
02:08:30
Lolacondemn the fact that he was assassinated. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that her and I seem to be very on the same page. Um, there seemed to be a bit of a misconception that I was like celebrating his death by any means. So,
02:08:43
Lolawanted to clarify that. Last show as well. I did say that I won't be making like any claims on my personal beliefs there. >> You did, I think, try to compare him to Adolf.
02:08:56
Lola>> That was um >> mustache man. >> No. Um in the moment as well, I think I was very clear that it wasn't a comparison, but rather a clarifying question for the argument you were making. Um >> what was the clarifying question? Well,
02:09:09
LolaI was trying to understand that because the conversation ended up I found the better wording which was I was trying to understand if you think that there is a threshold for evil someone can hit in order to deserve some treatment like that >> assassination.
02:09:21
Lola>> Sure. And my argument was never whether or not Charlie Kirk had hit that threshold or not. I just wanted to understand if you thought that that existed. >> But in the Sorry, go ahead. >> So the example that I used was the most
02:09:32
Brian Atlasextreme personification of evil I could find. Not someone that I thought was similar to him. >> Right. But in the context of having a a conversation about Charlie Kirk, it seems like you were attempting to bolster your position by saying, "Well,
02:09:44
Brian Atlasbut hold on, Brian, you perhaps would be in favor of assassination under ex circumstance." In this case, you you cited to Adolf Mustache Man.
02:09:54
Brian Atlas>> Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But so it seemed like you were doing a sort of well perhaps in our day and age Kirk was you know espousing at least from your perspective
02:10:05
Brian Atlascertain rhetoric that you might deem to be radical or deeply offensive or even harmful and thus uh you can perhaps understand why someone might feel justified in the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
02:10:19
Brian Atlas>> Yes. >> Okay. >> I'm not saying do do you feel like it was justified? Do I personally believe it was justified? >> Yeah. I'm not Maybe you would into it, but you feel like you can you see why somebody would
02:10:32
Lola>> um see that's a complic complicated question. I personally am very like antiviolence in every regard. I don't think anyone should kill anyone. >> Um >> but like
02:10:43
Lola>> it's like the same kind of question if you were to ask me like u someone with psychosis accidentally kill someone else in psychotic episode. Like do I understand why they did it? Yeah. Do I think that they were justified? No.
02:10:56
LolaLike that's the that's why I don't think that that question really can be asked in the circumstance. Like I guess to some extent I can get in his head. Like if this guy told me explicitly what he was thinking in the moment. Yeah. I mean
02:11:07
LolaI I that was if it's communicated sure I understand where his head was at. It doesn't matter if I think that he was like in the right or not. >> I just don't think people should be
02:11:17
Brian Atlaskilling people. >> Okay. But you do you do you see the motivation for it? Because it's I you mentioned like somebody has a psychotic episode and they're just batshit crazy,
02:11:29
Brian Atlasright? But when we're talking about political violence, I think we're talking about something different where the motivation is to either create like uh well suppress the individual in question. So you know if Charlie Kirk
02:11:42
Brian Atlashad massive levels of influence, so let's suppress that uh in a quite physically violent sort of way. But then also like these sort of cascading effects from there in terms of
02:11:54
Brian Atlasthe chilling effect and the suppression of oh okay if I'm a conserv if I have like milktoast sort of mostly mainstream conservative uh
02:12:05
Lolaopinion in the United States this opens me up to killing violence assassination by liberals leftist democrats so forth. >> Yeah. Well I mean again I don't think anyone should be killing anyone. I don't
02:12:18
Lolathink anyone should have killed Charlie Kirk. Um, and I also don't necessarily I think that, you know, the motivations could be things that we don't necessarily understand. Like it it doesn't it doesn't have to be that they're trying to suppress them. It could >> Oh, so sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Uh, I was going to give different examples, but I think we're on the same
02:12:33
Brian Atlaspage. >> Okay. And just then, what about I I get that you think, hey, killing bad, violence, bad. What about the rejoicing, though? Of course, some people might say, okay, the violence is terrible, but
02:12:43
Brian Atlassome people do uh were rejoicing. They might not have ever themselves wanted to commit this crime, but they rejoiced in it. They were happy about it. >> Reled. They reveled. >> They reveled. Uh, do you think that
02:12:56
Lolathat's justified? >> Um, I I think that justified is a complicated word there. Do I think it's moral? No. But can I understand the fact that people I mean genuinely over all of
02:13:08
Lolahis years on the internet he from my perspective really really was not like I think that he did promote harm for a number of people. Um I think that a number of people felt threatened by his
02:13:20
Lolabeliefs. I think that a lot of his debates could fall under the category of harassment at a certain point. Um >> what >> harassment? >> Yeah. I have seen um you know a lot of his debates in which he is telling
02:13:33
Lolapeople that they are making up their experiences because they don't align with his beliefs or that >> how's that harassment though? >> Well, I've seen him say that people are making up hate crimes and that that kind of thing doesn't actually happen to them. I just think that
02:13:44
Lola>> how's that harassment though? >> Um I think that it can it is I suppose it wasn't the right word. Um my point is it's hateful. I do believe that it's hateful. >> What specifically is hateful? um trying
02:13:56
Lolato put down people, belittle them, accuse them of lying um all in order to prove a point on your end. I don't think it's good faith. I don't think that it's a good faith debater. I don't think his intention really was to hear perspectives. I think a lot of his
02:14:09
Andrew Wilsondebates, uh he was making a conscious effort to back people into a >> some part, well, hang on. I got to get a little push back here because some parts of a debate, the important parts in fact
02:14:20
Andrew Wilsonare to reduce a person's positions down often to find out if they're lying. Like because people lie during debates all the time. Yeah. >> And reducing their position will often
02:14:29
Andrew Wilsonexpose that. Right. So, I'm not sure that having an assumption a person may be lying to you based on the details they're giving you that sound suspect and you begin to probe those details and then you find inconsistencies and find
02:14:42
Lolaout they're full of [ __ ] I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with that or I don't see how that's hateful. >> Well, I think there's a difference between probing for the sake of curiosity and then deeming something untrue without proper evidence. I have seen
02:14:55
Andrew Wilson>> like what was an example of where Charlie Kirk did that cuz he was a very good faith debater. Kirk was >> I think we can have different definitions of good faith, but I mean like one specific thing that comes to
02:15:06
Andrew Wilsonmind was >> No, I Well, what is Let's start with this. What does good what does good faith mean to you? I'll give you my definition real quick. >> Sure. >> Okay. So, to me, good faith is that you're advocating the positions you
02:15:18
Andrew Wilsonactually believe in and you're arguing those positions. >> That's good faith. >> Sure. um >> that and then and you're willing to also change your mind based on new evidence
02:15:30
Lolafor your positions. I also think that or concede points. I think that that's also maybe a part of good faith. So >> I I would agree with you on this definition. And I um would probably add that uh if I I would consider [snorts]
02:15:43
Andrew Wilsonit bad faith if there is any intention to uh make someone look stupid at the expense of >> I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. Making >> I do think that's something that >> making somebody look stupid, right? If
02:15:56
Andrew Wilsonthey're engaging in a debate with you is part of rhetoric that goes all the way back to Socrates, Plato. Um, Socrates was a blood sport debater and so, you know, like so was his his he had minions
02:16:08
Andrew Wilsonand they would go out in the streets and debate with people including the aristocracy and they made him look really [ __ ] stupid. >> I think she means like personal attacks more. >> Yeah. My my point I said >> a personal attack can actually be appropriate in a debate
02:16:21
Andrew Wilson>> like an ad homonym kind of thing. >> Well, that's not an ad hom actually a personal attack. An ad hom is when you make a personal attack instead of addressing the argument. So like let me give you an example. Let's say you're arguing with a woman. You're an
02:16:33
Andrew Wilsonaggressive debater. Okay. And you say >> you would know. Sorry. >> Yeah. And you say you say, "Um, no, that's not true because of X, Y, and Z,
02:16:43
Shonayou stupid bitch." Right. >> That's not an ad hom. >> It's not. That's an insult. >> I'd say it's a personal attack. And it's >> sure it's a personal attack. Not good faith. >> There there's nothing Well, there's
02:16:56
Andrew Wilsonnothing bad faith if you think they're a stupid [ __ ] you if you call someone a stupid [ __ ] like >> you might think it's look and this is the problem with people who who don't really study debate but I'll I'll explain it to you right it is in fact
02:17:07
Andrew Wilsonthe case that an ad hom is only when you're not addressing the argument and are deferring instead to a personal attack so if I were to say shut up you stupid [ __ ] I don't care that's a
02:17:19
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] Adam [laughter] right but if I said no uh you're wrong because actually what's going on is A B C and D and this refute your argument you stupid [ __ ]
02:17:29
Andrew WilsonThat's not an adom. That's actually uh just part of rhetoric. That's the distinction between a classic facious move, which is an ad homonym, and a non-fellacious move, which is personal
02:17:42
Andrew Wilsoninsults are part of rhetoric. >> So, >> I mean, I still believe political discourse should be conducted with some level of maturity. >> Totally understand. >> Look, that's reasonable. It's reasonable for you to say, I want parameters around
02:17:54
Andrew Wilsondebate and things like that. I'm just letting you know that in the future you could use that to your advantage. You could tell someone, "Hey, XYZ, blah, blah, blah. Refute your argument, you dick." You haven't actually done anything.
02:18:05
Shona>> You just don't You just don't like the concept of like respect that much, >> which is fine. >> Wait, wait, hold on. >> What did I do that was disrespectful to you? >> I didn't say you did anything disrespectful to me. You're like, "Oh,
02:18:16
Andrew Wilsonlike disrespectful jokes are totally cool." Like, oh, disrespect during a political debate. >> Well, respect is earned. It's not something that that's given. It's earned. And the thing is is uh I think
02:18:28
Andrew Wilsonthat I have to earn it from people as much as they have to earn it from me. And I'm just trying to be completely open and honest with you in this conversation about what it is that I think and why it is that I think those things. So what about that is
02:18:41
Shonadisrespectful or even advocating for >> if you had called me like a stupid [ __ ] at some point in this conversation so far, then I would find that disrespectful. But he was making a distinction about this. >> No, I wasn't calling I wasn't calling
02:18:53
Brian Atlasyou anything. Andrew wasn't making an advocation to call people a stupid example. >> He was saying if he did that it wouldn't be the example he gave where he said, "Well, here's my argument XYZ, you
02:19:06
Brian Atlasstupid, you know, bi." >> Yeah. Often times people will >> I just wouldn't I wouldn't call that super good faith. That's all. >> No, but he he's not making an advocation that he would do that. He would say stupid [ __ ] He's saying if he did, it wouldn't be an add-on.
02:19:19
Andrew Wilson>> Okay. Okay. as long as you as long >> Yeah. It just distinguishes between the idea of rhetoric, which rhetoric is anything which is convincing. It's not logical argumentation. >> I just I just think someone who operates
02:19:31
Andrew Wilsonin good faith doesn't use that sort of language. >> Well, good faith, bad faith is not part of debate discourse at all. Actually, that's a term that we like to use and throw around for people who are usually
02:19:43
Andrew Wilsonjust saying [ __ ] we disagree with. Honestly, it doesn't mean much. Um, that's why I just say in my terms like I think a person I'm arguing with who's good [clears throat] faith is just actually advocating what they believe. For the most part that's enough for me. >> That's an important part
02:19:56
Andrew Wilson>> because most of the time people will switch like [ __ ] chameleons what they think based on who they're arguing and and what it is that they're arguing about. And I think that that really is what's encapsulating bad faith more than anything. Like I would rather have a
02:20:09
Andrew Wilsonperson going, "You're a [ __ ] piece of [ __ ] and a this and that." as long as I knew what they actually thought, you know, because because then I can argue with you, but I can't argue with you if you're a [ __ ] rally in a snake and you just constantly switch positions in the middle of a debate and then I'm
02:20:23
SPEAKER_01like, >> "Yeah, >> you I can't pin down anything that you believe." So, I I really think good faith is really that >> I agree that >> donated $299. >> Thank you.
02:20:32
SPEAKER_01>> You have a table full of just assume paid for their time. How much does Cuban Bruce Lee makes me? the girl he pretends to care about. >> Okay, you got to admit, Cuban Bruce Lee
02:20:45
Andrew Wilsonis [ __ ] funny. It never [laughter] crosses a line from me. Yeah. >> Isn't there only like one person who does Only Fans here? I know. [laughter] >> [ __ ] Cuban Bruce Lee is the funniest [ __ ] ever. That That was good.
02:20:58
Brian Atlas>> Yeah, >> I do enjoy a good Cuban cigar. [laughter] >> You see how mean men are to each other all the time? >> It's perfectly fine. Like I wouldn't even be upset with that guy if he sucks in my face. >> It's just funny. But uh Clay, I I
02:21:11
Brian Atlas[laughter] I mean I don't know if there's consensus on the exact definition of [ __ ] but I'm actually not sure if any of the women here meet the [ __ ] definition. So
02:21:22
Brian Atlas>> uh not legally, right? >> Something like [laughter] something like that. Uh well, moving off of uh moving off of that, uh going to show us some of your show notes that you provided.
02:21:33
Brian Atlas>> You uh you wanted to hear >> you wanted to hear about Andrew's philosophy against feminism. Maybe that goes into like force doctrine stuff. >> Oh, yeah. I wanted to hear about that in particular.
02:21:45
Andrew Wilson>> Oh, no. I'm infected with the woke virus. So, I need to be infected with the woke virus. >> You're not going to like it. >> I need to be enlightened. Andrew, please help me out. >> Yeah. So, well, let's just start with >> Can I tell you what I think feminism is?
02:21:58
Andrew Wilson>> Can you tell me about force doctrine first or do you would you >> I think I need to first I think I need to caveat it with what I think feminism is. I think feminism is an egalitarian movement which is designed to dismantle patriarchy.
02:22:11
Andrew Wilson>> That's what I think feminism is. >> Equal rights kind of thing. >> No, the egalitarian would would match the equal rights, but you're missing the dismantling patriarchy aspect. I think that feminism has a stated goal of
02:22:24
Andrew Wilsondismantling patriarchal systems because it uses a lens of an oppressor oppressed class. And if you're an oppressed class, who are you oppressed by? Well, in the case of all women being oppressed, they
02:22:35
Shonawho who else could they be oppressed by except men? And men are the patriarchy. >> I mean, when I talk about when I like think about like feminism and look at today's world, I don't think men are oppressing women. And that the system we
02:22:47
Shonalive in, especially like legally, is patriarchal. I think there's people with patriarchal ideism for >> well I mean when I think of feminism I just think of like encouraging women to pursue what they want to pursue whether that's like in a professional space
02:23:00
Shona>> why would we need fe so why do we need feminism then >> because there's a lot of women who maybe feel like they can't like they should do a certain thing >> and who's the oppressor here who's oppressing them into belie >> I'm not saying anyone's the oppressor [snorts]
02:23:12
Shona>> so then fe feminism to you is just an advocation that women should just do what they want >> yeah kind of >> that's it Yeah. I mean, I think there's like feminists who say like, "Oh, we live in such a patriarchy and we're so oppressed." And then there's feminists
02:23:25
Andrew Wilsonwho say like who just support women just like pursuing their goals, reaching their fullest potential and being >> But you don't believe women should strive for all goals, right? >> Like you can have bad goals that women shouldn't pursue. You would agree with
02:23:38
Andrew Wilsonthat. >> I mean I mean when it comes to like me evaluating other people's goals, pursue whatever goal you want to pursue so long as you're not causing active harm to anyone. >> Okay. So, so you have an active harm
02:23:49
Andrew Wilsonprinciple. So, the active harm principle is like um do as thou wilt as long as it harms nobody else. >> Yeah. >> That's impossible though because >> directly. >> Yeah. But [laughter] this is the problem with the harm
02:24:02
Andrew Wilsonprinciple in general is that >> well most people don't have goals that are harming people. Like most women aren't trying to pursue harm. >> People don't generally set out to harm people, but I think that people can have goals that harm people whether they set
02:24:14
Melissa (Bodybuilder)out to. goals I'm talking about are personal and professional goals mostly. >> Yeah. >> Like this is my life goal. This is what I want to do. This is my purpose. >> Would you then consider someone who is putting out content that might be racy
02:24:26
Shonathat if a 16-year-old boy came across it, it would be harmful to him. >> That could harm him. Yeah. >> Yeah. Can harm him. >> But I mean, also that like pivots into my whole like beliefs on the sex work debate. I I want to stay focused on this.
02:24:38
Andrew Wilson>> Well, okay. So, well, I'll just I guess I'll try to make it easy for you. So I think um I think patriarchy itself is the stated goal of deconstruction from feminism. I do think that they want to
02:24:50
Andrew Wilsondeconstruct the patriarchy and they're trying to move women into egalitarian positions with men and that's why the patriarchy has to be deconstructed. >> I mean when I think of feminism I think of like a broad range of movements. You have like the first wave of feminism,
02:25:01
Shonamodern feminism. It encompasses a lot of >> like different degrees of beliefs which is why I like I wanted to hear more about like the whole force doctrine thing. Well, force doctrine is just advocating that men have a monopoly on
02:25:13
Andrew Wilsonforce. >> And so, since men have a monopoly on force, women are always going to have to appeal to a patriarchal system to enforce their rights. And so, no matter what happens, you end up with
02:25:25
Andrew Wilsoncircularity. Men are have the monopoly on force. Women will always have to appeal to men for force. Therefore, it's true feminism and dismantling of patriarchy is never possible because they're always appealing to the patriarchy in order to
02:25:37
Shonaenforce their rights. Okay. So, I mean, when I hear you say that, what I immediately think is like you're drawing a sort of legitimacy from the fact that men have greater strength, greater capacity for force and violence. They have the monopoly on force, right?
02:25:50
Andrew Wilson>> They do have the legitimacy from your worldview, not mine, but it's your worldview that gives them the legitimacy. >> I mean, I'm not the one advocating for force doctrine. >> Do you believe in God? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Are you Christian? >> You're not a Christian. So, what kind of God do you believe in?
02:26:03
Andrew Wilson>> I'm Hindu. >> You're Hindu. [laughter] Like practicing Hindu? >> Yes. Why is that so funny? >> Well, okay, that's fine. >> I'm just curious like why you >> So, well, because Hinduism and harm reductionism isn't exactly synonymous,
02:26:16
Shonawhich means that you have a diff a distinction principle here. >> I don't like draw my political views based on my religion completely. I really >> don't you draw your political views from your morals? >> I mean, yeah.
02:26:28
Shona>> Then where do you get your morals except from your religion? >> I mean, I don't I don't get all my morals from religion. >> Where do you get them from? I think there's like some sort of like notion of like objective like universally understood morals that go
02:26:41
Andrew Wilsonbeyond religion. I also believe in like separation of like >> No, that's just subjective morality. You're just talking about preference. So you you get your morals from things you prefer like things I prefer more moral than things they >> like how I think people should be
02:26:54
Andrew Wilsontreated. Anyways, >> well that's important. And the reason that that's important that we're figuring out where you draw your morality from, >> I would also say I'm not like super [clears throat] devout to where religion is like heavily heavy. >> I understand. So then we got preference.
02:27:07
Andrew WilsonBut if it's just if it just comes down to preference, then every man's preference is equal to your preference, everybody's preferences. So why is it not legitimate for men to collectivize and utilize force for the purposes of
02:27:19
Shonaupping their station in society? And that's what I was going to touch on cuz what I when when you say like okay men have a monopoly on force, women need to appeal to men to gain their rights. It's circular. You're like drawing legitimacy
02:27:30
Shonafor men from their monopoly on force. And when I see you like kind of >> equate strength and legitimacy, it it's like it's kind of a dangerous slippery slope because then I think about like I think about it this way. What other legitimacy is there?
02:27:43
Shona>> Listen listen. I think about it this way. When you draw legitimacy from strength, >> it's like, okay, pedophiles could collectively overpower little children. >> That's right. >> And then it seems to like almost force doctrine to me would seem to justify
02:27:55
Shonathat. Then you're suddenly justifying every tyrannical invading force throughout history, including Russia invading Ukraine, World War II, Nazism. It's a very >> well, or you're justifying the opposite. you're justifying the overthrowing of
02:28:08
Andrew Wilsonthe Nazism and justifying the overthrowing of pedophilic cults or justifying the overthrowing of of said evil deed. Forced doctrine would do both, but that doesn't really negate the
02:28:18
Shonafact that what you're doing is you're just always appealing to men again for your rights. >> So when you when you talk about how men have a monopoly on force, you're talking about like, okay, men are like physically biologically stronger. >> Well, it
02:28:30
Andrew Wilson>> cuz that's like what you mean, right? >> Look, I'll defer to the IFBB pro. Okay. I'm guessing that physically she's one of the like most females are not stronger than the average male, but you
02:28:42
Andrew Wilsonmay be, but in comparison to IFBB pro males, she's not >> Yeah. Yeah. You're making >> most of them are stronger on average, right? I mean, >> you're pointing >> there's a But what I'm saying is that
02:28:54
Andrew Wilsonjust on average, and it's not minuscule, like no offense, right? But I'm guessing that there's hormone replacement and all sorts of thing that goes on that assist with >> you being able to really get jacked the
02:29:07
Andrew Wilsonway that you are, right? Okay. For sure. So, the thing is is like >> men are also doing that the IFBB and they get much stronger. >> And it's not a slight distinction in strength. You're talking about, hang on, you're talking about 50 to 75% strength
02:29:20
Andrew Wilsondifferential. >> That is [ __ ] huge. That's like fighting with a gorilla. That's like fighting with a gorilla >> from a man's perspective. I agree. Men are collectively a lot like biologically, physically stronger, >> much physically stronger than the average woman.
02:29:33
Shona>> What I was going to say is like when you talk about force and you think about today, um, okay, let's say you have a 5'2 woman who has access to militaryra weaponry and a missile program and then
02:29:44
Shonayou have >> a 180 lb 6 foot whatever man, super strong, who just has like a handgun. >> Force today, it can be like remote and can be mechanical and is not purely
02:29:56
Andrew Wilsonbiological. She could physically using force overpower him. >> And who's in charge? Who's in charge of all of this industry and builds all of these weapons and uses all these Well, hang on. And uses all these weapons and
02:30:09
Shonadesigns all these weapons. >> I mean, women are equally capable of being weapons engineers. I think it's more of an intellectual accomplishment. >> How come they're not been? >> Because I mean, throughout history, women have not been had not been
02:30:22
Shonaencouraged to enter those kinds of spaces. But like if you put a woman into that field today and a man into that field, I think they could both be perfectly successful at it. >> Let me just ask you a question. >> Have you ever fired a gun? >> No. >> No. Never. Right.
02:30:35
Andrew Wilson>> I've never fired a gun. No. >> No. Do you Are you aware that they actually require a decent amount of physical strength to handle properly? >> Sure. >> I've heard about that. But I mean Okay. >> And the bigger the gun, the more
02:30:48
Andrew Wilsonphysical strength is required. And the other problem is is that you have to carry lots of ammo and that requires a lot of physical strength and you have to carry a bunch of gear to feed yourself and then you have to carry bulletproof vests that you're wearing so that when
02:30:59
Andrew Wilsonyou get shot right you you don't die. I think if you gave me etc etc etc and the problem is we know this from hundreds of years of military collected data not
02:31:10
Andrew Wilsonjust here but in every nation on planet earth that women consistently have to have the standards lowered for them on average so that they can in any way shape or form keep up with men in those
02:31:22
Andrew Wilsonroles. What that tells us collectively is this. They're not as good in them. Men have a a huge advantage in all aspect, even including weapons, including drone pilot, even drone piloting. They have advantages in just
02:31:35
Andrew Wilsonbeing able to build things quicker. Almost everything about them is designed as the super predator of the earth. Not predatory in the way that they victimize, but predatory in the way that they can quickly kill almost anything
02:31:47
Andrew Wilsonthey want to with very little resistance from anything that exists. because of that. I'm sorry, but you're never going to be able to equalize force between
02:31:57
Andrew Wilsonsome a sex that's 50% on average weaker than them, no matter what technological advances you think you're going to make. >> But it is the case that in that scenario, a woman could physically using that kind of force overpower the man. It
02:32:10
Andrew Wilsonit is hypothetically >> you're talking about the highest grade of >> it could be hypothetically like I'm willing to grant that you could have a logical possibility what where women have like a [ __ ] I don't know dystopian technological future where
02:32:22
Andrew Wilsonthey invent all of the technology and enforce all of their right through machinery. Okay, I'm willing to grant that. But the thing is is like that's not going to happen. And uh it's not the
02:32:34
Andrew Wilsoncase now and it's not going to be the case in our lifetime or the lifetime of your mom or your mom's mom or even your mom's mom. So right now at least the case is that you have to appeal to men for force. And so feminism as a
02:32:47
Andrew Wilsondismantling of patriarchy is not possible because you're appealing to the very thing you're trying to dismantle always to dismantle it. But it's also interesting because when I think about political movements throughout history in this country that have been super
02:32:59
Shonaeffective, they've done so through social organization, protest, political pressure, cultural influence, things that have nothing to do with force because like those are appealing to the government, the people in power. [laughter] And what does the government use?
02:33:12
Andrew Wilson>> The government has access to force, but these movements have still been successful >> because men have allowed them to be. But in places where men don't allow them to be, they're not. Can I give you the entirety of the Middle East and Asia?
02:33:25
Andrew WilsonWhat happens to your little political movements there? >> Well, I'm talking about what's >> What happens to your little political movements in Afghanistan? Do your little political movements with the the holding of the little sign saying, "I don't want
02:33:37
Andrew Wilsonto wear this really hot [ __ ] burka in the 100° sun and they come out and cut their [ __ ] head off. How do they do over there? They don't do so good." How come? It's because men allow you to keep
02:33:50
Andrew Wilsonthose signs up. Men allow you to protest. Men are the ones who give the allowance for you to do [ __ ] anything on planet Earth. And my my proof is half of planet Earth where men said, >> "No, [ __ ] that." And you know what women
02:34:01
Shonacan do about it? >> Nothing. They can't do anything about it. >> But in the democra the democratic country we live in, those are values. >> All relying on men allowing you to have a democracy. >> Change, right? I think you're you're
02:34:15
Amouranth[laughter] thinking that women were able to get rights to vote just because of their protest, but no, it's actually because they needed votes since so many men were at war or dying in war. Like women weren't allowed to vote until >> I'm also just curious. >> Wait, wait, hold on. Let her finish. Go
02:34:30
Amouranthahead. >> Sorry. Yeah, women just weren't allowed to like be educated or vote until like we decided the men decided we need women to enter the economy. We need women to enter the voting pool so we can win more
02:34:40
Andrew Wilsonbecause men are dying in these wars. See, there's a lot of truth to that with what industrialist with what industrialization did and industrialists did with wanting to get women to have
02:34:51
Andrew Wilsoncheaper labor enter into the workforce. But ultimately, the the interesting part here is that all of this just proves force doctrine. The truth is is that if
02:35:02
Andrew Wilsonmen collectivize for rights, they can get them because we can kill other men. We have a monopoly on force. We can kill men. We can take our rights. Let me give you the Revolutionary War as an example
02:35:13
Andrew Wilsonof this. We don't like our conditions, we'll [ __ ] kill you and make new conditions. That's what men are capable of doing. In the historic record, when I looked, I never found, not one time, a
02:35:25
Andrew Wilsonsingle instance of women being able to collectivize and use force to take anything from men ever. It's I've never once found it. And I looked hard. I wanted to see if there was even one
02:35:38
Andrew Wilsonexample. There's not one. Can you think of a single time ever in history, the history that you know about where women have collectivized and used force to take anything from men? >> Not force.
02:35:51
Andrew Wilson>> And so if that's the case and men have a monopoly on force, you're always going to have to appeal to them to not use it on you. Because here's the dirty truth, and it's brutal. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to lie to you. Because I have
02:36:02
Andrew Wilsonthe standard of half the world to look at. I know that if men collectivize in the west and decide to put women in little cages, there's not a [ __ ] they can do about it. So, they really have to appeal to the benevolence of men and all
02:36:15
Shonathey do is demonize them. And that's [ __ ] crazy to me. >> So, I mean again like when I when I mentioned earlier how that kind of justifies like any tyrannical invading force. Do you think that there's not a justification the less powerful party in that situation should just appease to the
02:36:28
Andrew Wilsonoppressor or the invading force? >> The thing is is that you're going to Well, here's the thing. Um, let me ask you this. If you have somebody who's larger than you are, right, and can beat you up, do
02:36:40
Andrew Wilsonyou talk [ __ ] to them? >> No, not as >> Why not? >> So they don't beat me up. >> They don't beat you up, right? >> But there should still be some kind of >> Hang on, hang on. Is that a form of appeasement? >> Well, I just dist myself from this
02:36:54
Andrew Wilsonperson. >> So, it's not a form of appeasement. Hang on, hang on. Answer the question I asked first. Is it a form of appeasement when someone's much larger than you? So you don't talk [ __ ] to them because they don't and because you don't want to get beat up. Is that appeasing? >> I mean, you're not really doing anything
02:37:09
Shonain >> Right. It's not appeasement then. >> Sure. >> So So when we're talking about this, it's not appeasement either. you bring in a third party in that situation, I think they have a responsibility to call out the person who's >> Well, I think that the case is is that
02:37:20
Andrew Wilsonif you aggravate if you aggravate the sex who is responsible for your [ __ ] rights and then they take him away. Well, that's just like going up to the
02:37:30
Andrew Wilson6'4 guy as me, right, who's 280 lb and going, "Fuck you. I'm going to do what I want." And then when he smashes my face, does it matter if I give him my moral objection? If I'm like, "That's really
02:37:41
Andrew Wilsonimmoral that you just did that." He's going to be that's nice. They don't give a [ __ ] about my moral objection. They're going to beat my [ __ ] head in. And the thing is is like, >> okay, since that's an objective reality,
02:37:53
Andrew Wilsonthe objective reality here for women is exactly the same. If you decide to continue the agitation of men, if women collectively do that, men are capable of taking everything from women. And the reverse isn't true. >> Okay. When I think about what you're
02:38:07
Shonasaying in the context of the world we live in today, a society that's advanced a lot more than that intellectually is not just this caveman primitive I beat you up, you listen to me, you appease to me kind of way cuz that it's very like it's very stone age actually. It's very interesting.
02:38:20
Andrew Wilson>> It's funny to me that >> it's like this weird appeal to natural. >> It's the problem that you have is you have what's called a normaly bias. See you ra you were raised in this world and in this world the one that you currently live in it is the case that we're all
02:38:33
Andrew Wilsonvery civil to each other. We're all very nice and we all have we're governed by laws and we're governed by this and we're governed by that. And if there's a zombie apocalypse tomorrow, the misogynist who's down the road, who's the [ __ ] gun holder with the bunker, you going to be bashing on his [ __ ]
02:38:46
Andrew Wilsondoor say, "Please let me in. This is [ __ ] crazy. What do I do?" And I don't blame you for that cuz I'm going to do the same [ __ ] I'm going to run over and be like, "What the [ __ ] do I do, man? There's zombies everywhere. This is [ __ ] crazy." When the curtain
02:38:58
Andrew Wilsongoes down. society right now. The benefits that women have are incredible. And you have no idea how beneficial it is to you. That how good men really are to keep a society like this going.
02:39:10
Andrew WilsonThey're extraordinarily benevolent in what they do. It's insane. And to to think that like we can look at half the world where they're they are technologically advanced in China. Okay.
02:39:21
Andrew WilsonYes, they are. I mean, they're almost surpassing us as a superpower. They're super advanced in Japan. They're super advanced in the Middle East and many of
02:39:31
Shonathe nations and they go like that and women have no rights. And so it's like >> wait at that point why do you even gender force doctrine? Like shouldn't you suddenly exclude every like disabled, elderly or frail man and include every super strong buff woman?
02:39:45
Andrew Wilson>> Well, we're talking >> just make it based on strength at that point. >> Yeah. Do you understand though what collective force would mean between the sexes? So, collective force between sexes actually means something. Like, a
02:39:57
Andrew Wilson50-year-old man is still very [ __ ] dangerous to a 20-year-old woman who's strong. To a to a 20-year-old woman who's strong, a 60-year-old man is still a significant threat to them.
02:40:09
Andrew Wilson>> I mean, it could be the case that if woman was really strong and he was really frail on a wheelchair, >> women get overpowered by their 11year-old sons. That's how bad it is. It's not It's not a like >> a woman could overpower a really old frail man.
02:40:21
Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. dumb. But the thing is is like based around you're talking about based around collective action. >> And when you're talking about collective action, it doesn't matter how many outliers you point to. Oh, there's a guy over there who's in a wheelchair. Oh,
02:40:34
Andrew Wilsonthere's a dude over there who can't do who can't lift anything. Oh, there's a dude over there who can't use a gun. I agree those examples are there. But collective action is usually done uniformly between a collective. >> But then in that case, don't you think there's a sort of like injustice within
02:40:47
Shonathis force doctrine idea? >> What's the injustice? It's a descriptor. It's not a prescription. It's >> suddenly every strong woman doesn't get to be included. >> Well, it's woman, not women, not strong women. >> Oh my god. >> Wait, really quick, just on what Andrew
02:41:00
Brian Atlassaid, I I'm just want to make sure that you understand that. And >> it's a descriptor, not a descriptor. Andrew is not saying yes, we should He's not saying yes, we should do this. We should subjugate women. That's not his
02:41:11
Brian Atlasargument. He's just saying this this is not what not what should be, not what ought to be. >> Yeah. This is Okay. How come those Middle Eastern men in wheelchairs have rights and the strong women in the Middle East don't?
02:41:24
Andrew Wilson>> Monopoly on force. But what I would say, >> so hang on. Collective, the collective still is what matters. So the thing is, >> and that's an injustice. >> Well, [laughter] just how how do you ground justice? If you don't ground it in God, isn't it
02:41:37
Andrew Wilsonjust preference >> like morality? Yeah. What is justice? Tell me what Now, listen. This is I'm not trying to make this a trick question, and I'm going to just caveat this with this. >> Explaining what justice is, it's like
02:41:49
Andrew Wilsonthe hardest concept in the world. >> So, I'm not going to hold you to this, right? Instead, I'm just going to I'm just going to say, okay, you can try to to ground justice. >> I'm talking about justice and like I mean, like when I'm talking about justice in the context of like rights, I
02:42:01
Andrew Wilsonthink I mean, in that case, >> you don't have rights. There are no rights. They're made up. >> Do you not believe in the concept of rights? >> No, they're made up. Where do they come from? Point to one. >> The government. They're like, "Okay, I
02:42:13
Shonawould define rights." >> The government gives you rights >> in this country. Yeah. >> Well, no, no, just period. >> Can I define rights? >> Yeah. >> Protections given to individuals in society.
02:42:25
Andrew Wilson>> Oh, given. >> They're given to you. >> They're legally enforced. >> And what makes it a right? If it's given to you, can it be taken away? >> Yeah, it can. >> It doesn't sound like you have a right then. Sounds like you have force. Sounds
02:42:36
Andrew Wilsonlike somebody uses force in order to collectivize to make sure that you can do or not do something. That's not really a right. That's not like the justice in rights when you're talking say when you say I have the right to speak. You have the right to speak.
02:42:50
Andrew Wilson>> Freedom of speech. Yeah. That's a right. >> Yeah. It's a right. As long as somebody says you have it. >> How do you feel about the Constitution? >> Hang on. As long as someone says you have it, that's it. That's the only way you have rights. You don't have rights. Rights don't exist. They're they're
02:43:02
Andrew Wilsonconcepts. They're made up. Just because something's awarded or given to someone, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. >> Where does it exist? [sighs] Where does a right exist? Can you point to one? Can you touch it? Can you taste it? Can you smell it? >> So, if you can't physically or tangibly interact with something, it doesn't
02:43:15
Andrew Wilsonexist. >> Where does it exist? >> Where does Okay. Well, like love is a real thing. You can't touch or taste. >> Aren't isn't love just a combination of chemicals in your body that give you a reaction?
02:43:27
Shona>> I mean, that exists, right? Do you only believe in tangible concepts? That's interesting. >> Well, no. I I'm I'm looking at your worldview. The >> Okay, I'll I'll think I'll ground in something more like real realist.
02:43:38
Andrew Wilson>> Okay. What What is it grounded in? >> If someone like if someone tried to like like kill you, then they would be arrested because you have the right. >> It's just grounded in the law. So
02:43:51
Andrew Wilsoneverything in the Middle East is fine because it's lawful. >> I didn't say it was fine. >> Okay. Well, then what is it grounded in? >> I'm just talking about like the practical application right violates your rights. >> Yeah. But what is it grounded in? What do you ground rights in other than you like them?
02:44:03
Andrew Wilson>> The law. >> So then then if you take rights away via the law, that would be justified, right? >> No, you shouldn't take rights away. >> How do you ground rights in the law? But then if I say I'm going to use the law
02:44:14
Amouranthto take your rights away, the very grounding you're using, that's bad, but the other way it's good. What >> we're getting confused here because No, not I'm not, but I mean like I think the confusion is going like you're saying
02:44:27
Amouranththat I have rights because the Constitution says so. It feels like a moral thing to have. Well, who decided that was a moral thing to have? Men in charge. And why did they do that? Because it was beneficial to them and their families and their comrades. What
02:44:38
Amouranthis a country? It's just a big tribe. I say rights are awarded by virtue of being humanistic, >> right? By who? >> What do you mean? >> Well, there's all sorts of people collective society. >> And so, if collective society decides to
02:44:51
Amouranthtake those away, why are they actually being immoral? Well, collective society would never decide to take them away. >> Except in half the [ __ ] planet, which I can point to right now. It's >> because in those countries, the men have decided this doesn't benefit us anymore.
02:45:04
Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. So tell me, so tell me if half if if here we democratic, if I democratically voted or convinced enough people to democratically vote to get rid of democracy, what did I do wrong? >> Democratically voted to get rid of democracy?
02:45:16
Andrew Wilson>> What did I do wrong? >> Well, you can vote for whatever you want, >> right? But if I democratically vote to remove democracy and rights from everybody, tell me why that's actually wrong. Other than hang on, other than your preference,
02:45:30
Shona>> there could never be a situation in which you can vote in a democracy to remove democracy, could there? >> Yes, you could do it right now. >> Oh, by voting for Trump? >> Yeah. Did didn't you Don't you think he's a tyrant trying to take away your rights?
02:45:44
Andrew Wilson>> Well, I mean, yeah. So, yeah, you could use democracy. Wait, don't don't you like not even believe in like full-on democracy? >> Some of that's that's bad faith. So the thing is
02:45:56
Andrew WilsonI just got distracted. >> Hang on, let's move back to good faith. >> What do you ground rights in other than your preference? >> Just things you prefer. What would it actually be grounded in? You can't ground it in the law. >> When you say grounded in, what do you mean by that?
02:46:09
Andrew Wilson>> Well, so if you say I'm I'm going to ground my belief in the law, that means that's what the justification is, is the law. But if you make the justification that the law is what's correct, then if I change the law, then it's still correct. >> Are you asking me how should we decide
02:46:22
Andrew Wilsonlike what right? >> No, I'm asking how you ground it. The thing in which you create the justification for it existing in the first place. What is the justification for a right other than you prefer that thing
02:46:34
Andrew Wilson>> that people in society should be treated a certain way? And that's not a personal preference. That's a collective preference in in this country for >> So it's preference. >> Sure. >> Okay. So then it's preference. So, your personal preference right now aligns
02:46:45
Andrew Wilsonwith most people's preference. Hang on. >> But there's univers I'll let you do an internal critique back. I promise. >> If it's the case that your preferences
02:46:57
Andrew Wilsonalign with other people's preferences and that creates your justification, then if my preferences align with other people's preferences, we're equally justified. Right. >> And that's just having different interests within a democracy. Sure.
02:47:10
Andrew WilsonWell, then if that's the case, then if men collectivize and their preferences outweigh women's and they take all your [ __ ] rights away, tell me what they're actually doing wrong. >> Well, that's under democratic.
02:47:22
Andrew Wilson>> Why is that wrong other than your preference though? It's not right. >> I mean, it's not constitutional. >> And the constitution is a collective of preference. >> Yeah. That we like Yeah.
02:47:33
Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. So then if that's the case, if everything just boils down to what you prefer, then the second men decide to prefer Hang on. The second men decide to and prefer to stuff your asses in cages,
02:47:45
Andrew Wilsonthen they're equally justified. Hang on, hang on. How would they not be equally justified >> if they're just using the same standard you are, preference? Because when I when you keep you keep attaching personal preference to what I'm saying and
02:47:58
Shonathinking, but don't you believe there's some kind of like I mean based on like reason like rationality like I don't want to use the word objective but universally we have like I mean you could look across religions across
02:48:09
Shonacultures across cultures there's like universal understandings of maybe people should be treated this way this thing is the right thing this thing is the wrong thing even like in in a secular context. >> Can I tell you about a little island
02:48:22
Andrew Wilson[laughter] off the coast? I'm talking about patterns of >> called Papa New Guinea. Uh let me let me explain about this little island. >> Are we working in exceptions >> in Papa New? Well, okay. I'm just saying like listen before I'm not going to bring that up even though it's hilarious
02:48:36
Andrew Wilsonto do. >> I'm just going to point this out. Your argument is circular. You're saying me and the collective prefer this thing and that's what makes it justified. And I say okay, that's fair. >> It's not even that's that's not even
02:48:47
Shonaabout preference. like universal understandings that benefit >> can universal are universal sta standards unchanging >> mostly I'd say >> they're unchanging >> they can't they can change but like a
02:48:59
Andrew Wilsonlot >> okay then they're not understandings are >> unchanging means can't change >> I'd say there are plenty that don't change >> okay can't and I'm not asking about do or don't I'm asking about can or can't
02:49:11
Andrew Wilsonuniversal preferences unchanging that means cannot change >> I would say the Most universal preferences can't change. >> They can't. >> They often don't. >> What? >> Okay. Like for let me give you an
02:49:24
Shonaexample. If you have a law that says don't kill people like throughout history that laws been enforced >> except in Somalia. >> Is there a law in Somalia that says you can't? >> Yeah. There's anarchy there. There's no government.
02:49:35
Andrew Wilson>> Do most countries let people? >> What? Wait, you said can't. Can't. Can't is a definitive. It means cannot. >> Okay. I'm talking about a pattern here. A trend here. >> Yeah. I'm talking about a trend here too. >> So Somalia is the trend in the trend. It's one country.
02:49:49
Andrew Wilson>> No, the trend is just preference. >> If you can point to majority of countries and majority of >> the majority of countries, women have no [ __ ] rights, >> do they? In most countries? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Was there anything else you want to add to that? So the universal preference must be that you don't get any [ __ ]
02:50:02
Shonarights. >> In those countries, are they democratic? >> No. What do they need? >> Do you think if they suddenly were democratic, then that could change that in those countries suddenly women could gain access to rights? >> Iraq is democratic now. And I don't know about the whole woman's rights thing
02:50:16
Shonathere >> in Afghanistan. If you gave women if you gave like if you implemented democracy >> gave them that who >> well I mean >> who >> if men suddenly gave women the right >> oh if men suddenly gave women rights
02:50:30
Andrew Wilsonthat's crazy >> when they're only really incentivized when they need their votes. >> That's crazy. If men gave women rights women could do stuff. I'm [ __ ] razzledazzled by this argument. No one
02:50:42
Andrew Wilsonever said, no one ever said men were physically weaker or had less of an monopoly. >> Well, I'm just saying, you're just saying to me that if men happen to give women the right >> agreed with you this whole time that men are stronger and men can physically own.
02:50:54
Andrew Wilson>> That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about if men gave women the right to vote right now. >> So, that's a pivot from what I'm saying, which >> it's not. You said if men in Afghanistan suddenly gave women the right to vote, then things would sure change. Yeah. No
02:51:07
SPEAKER_01[ __ ] >> No [ __ ] I'm talking universal understandings. [laughter] And you're drawing this back to force doctrine. What I was saying >> you I thought we were talking about force doctrine. >> Oh >> bario wisdom donated $1,000. >> Sorry for the delay.
02:51:20
SPEAKER_01>> Moment of silence for our fallen. Corporal Mayer USMC 2024. The carbull 13 gate and all who fell from Fallujah to
02:51:29
Brian AtlasCarbull. We remember, we honor, we will not forget. Happy Veterans Day. See Fidelis. Uh, bario wisdom. Thanks for the uh,
02:51:42
Andrew Wilsonchampagne pot. Appreciate it. Sorry if you guys want to continue. I just I love a good argument. >> One for the devil. One for the devil dogs, I guess. Uh, sorry that your friend passed, man. Anyway, yeah, back to this. Um, it sounds like everything you say just reinforces force
02:51:55
Shona>> when I was talking about universal understanding because you were saying like, oh, in a lot of countries there's like they're like women don't have rights. >> Continue. Continue. I was saying that if you suddenly gave everyone the right to
02:52:08
Shonavote in a lot of these countries where women don't have rights, then maybe women would not be as oppressed. >> Wait, say that again. Countries. >> I want to make sure I got that right. >> We were talking about universal understandings and like morals, right? >> And then you mentioned like, oh well, in
02:52:22
Shonaa lot of countries, like majority of countries, women don't have rights. And I said, well, that has a lot to do with the fact that those countries are undemocratic and controlled by men. If they suddenly were democratic, that would change >> based on the fact that most people
02:52:35
Shona>> and who would have >> would look out more for women, which is universal understanding. >> Who would have to make them democratic? >> What what I'm trying to prove right now at this point is that there are there's a concept of universal understandings and morals.
02:52:46
Shona>> There's not otherwise why don't we all have the same ones. >> Do you notice how like across religions there's often like certain values that are preached >> that there's like similarities there? Sure. across cultures there's
02:52:58
Shona>> similarities in what people will believe and like in different countries there's like commonalities of certain laws that will be passed that's what I'm calling universal understandings and morality >> okay that's great but these aren't agree with me
02:53:10
Shona>> these aren't shared concepts though >> but they're sh I just gave an example of like how they can be shared across so many people and you like yeah cool I agree with you but I actually disagree with you >> yeah no I'm just disagreeing with you so I >> but you just said
02:53:22
Andrew Wilson>> yeah I I agree with you that it is true that you could make the argument that there's some shared concepts of morality across people groups. >> That's what I'm saying. Okay. But really, but it doesn't matter because all people groups don't share morals. So,
02:53:35
Andrew Wilson>> and I'm saying based on those commonalities, that's what rights. >> Commonalities can change based on the preferences of people groups. What is universally accepted uh good behavior now was not 300 years ago. Example, if
02:53:47
Andrew Wilsonthat guy pissed me off 300 years ago, I could challenge him to a duel. >> Relatively unchanging. >> If I that guy pissed me off 300 years ago, I could challenge him to a duel. Go outside. He would take his top hat off. We both pull out guns, try to blow each
02:53:58
Andrew Wilsonother's [ __ ] brains out. Now, is that a universal moral right now? No, it's [ __ ] not. So, the thing is is like, look, universal preferences change constantly. Or I could challenge him to a duel. Yeah. Constantly.
02:54:12
Andrew Wilson>> What did you say? 300 years. >> Constantly. Women voting is brand new. That never happened before. That's not even a thing that ever really happened. >> Well, what I'm saying what >> No, no, no. What you're saying is absurd. >> Not really. universal constants for
02:54:25
Andrew Wilsonmorals change constantly. They're not unchanging. Not only are they not unchanging, we can 100% expect that the intuitions of people in the next hundred years are going to drastically change. >> And I don't think that invalidates.
02:54:38
Brian Atlas>> Hold that thought for just a moment. Hold the thought. >> Uh I we need to do a cheers for wisdom. Uh cheers to Corporal Maya. Sorry about your friends. >> And cheers to the good conversations
02:54:49
Brian Atlastonight. >> And cheers to the sal
02:54:56
ShonaSo I guess can we maybe we can finish. >> Yeah. No, I was just saying at a given point in time, forget like 300 years ago because I think just because universal >> I'll just go ahead and grant everything that you're saying. >> Does any of that in any way refute force
02:55:09
Shonadoctrine? [snorts] >> I think it draws it draws like >> this is a little more prescriptive. I and I'm aware of that. But it draws like where I would like how I would give rights into into something that's also
02:55:20
Shona>> And who would you have give those rights >> and enforce them? >> Humans in general. >> Oh, you would have humans in general do it. And what if >> what do you mean? >> What if like what if men didn't like the rights that you were prescribing? >> I'm talking about Okay. In like a
02:55:33
Shonademocratic country. >> In a democratic country, what happens if men don't like the rights? You think if well I mean it's I think we have we live in a system in this country set up today that would that's able to control
02:55:45
Andrew Wilson>> and can the system fail and can men collectively use action in order to take the system back with that pesky thing called the second amendment. >> That's a pretty drawn out hypothetical I think. >> Is it because this whole nation was founded in doing just that? >> So you think today that it's possible
02:55:58
Andrew Wilsonthat men could just collectivize and just over >> 100% they could and can and always have been able to. The government's designed in such a way that allow for that. >> So the United States going to last forever?
02:56:12
Andrew Wilson>> I think it's going to last a pretty long time. I don't think >> forever. >> That's an interesting question. You think the world ends? >> No, of course not. Men can can't listen force doctrine saying this.
02:56:23
Andrew Wilson>> Men can collectivize whenever they want to take the rights away from women. And I'm sorry that there's a lot of women who are just rationally don't understand that that's the case. I hang on hang on. Let me just finish what it is and then you can then you can attack it. But let
02:56:36
Andrew Wilsonme at least get it out. >> Okay. Women can't appeal to that same thing. They cannot collectively take rights away from men. They can't. And they've never done it once anywhere in human history have I ever found women
02:56:49
Andrew Wilsoncollectivizing and using force to take rights from men. Since that's the case, they're always appealing to men for those rights. I don't know a way around that. And every example you give seemingly to me just confirms that
02:57:01
Andrew Wilsonthat's the case. Wait, what about democracy? We have a democracy. You have a democracy because men enforce the democracy. And the second men don't enforce the democracy, into the [ __ ] cages you go. [laughter]
02:57:11
Shona>> So my whole qualm with that idea is purely that it dis like okay, it draws legitimacy from strength and it it doesn't really take into account >> it's not it's not making it legitimate >> regard for a person's humanity.
02:57:24
Shona>> Here's the word con. It's a word concept fallacy, right? So So hang on. >> Can I just say one thing? >> Yes. If your like whole argument or idea with force doctrine is purely men can physically overpower women at any point, yeah, they can. >> Nope, that's not the argument. The
02:57:37
Andrew Wilsonargument is that they can collectively enforce their will and women can't with force. That's what it means. And so >> that's kind of synonymical with with what I said. >> It's not because men you you missed this part.
02:57:48
Andrew Wilson>> Women will always have to appeal to men and men will never have to appeal to women for their rights. Men can change the conditionals of their own rights with force. And women have to appeal to men, change rights for them. So
02:57:59
Andrew Wilsontherefore, women will always have to appeal to men for their rights. And if men collectively say you ain't got none, you don't. And if women collectively say men don't, we do. >> But you want to know why that kind of thing doesn't happen today? It's because people don't.
02:58:13
Andrew Wilson>> It happens all over the world. [laughter] What are you talking? Like most of the world, this is what happens. >> Okay. For example, in this country, the reason that doesn't happen today is because in a lot of like more like countries such as this one,
02:58:24
Andrew Wilson>> there's some sort of regard for humanity and morality and a more advanced >> also you appealing to men being benevolent and moral. Did you know that? >> You see where you're making the same argument that I make. Men must really be benevolent because what you're appealing
02:58:37
Andrew Wilsonto right now is that there's such a sense of morality in society that men will never grab all the [ __ ] women off the street and put them in cattle carts and send them to breeding camps even though they could. That sure seems awful [ __ ] nice of men. You know why
02:58:50
Lolathey don't? >> That sure seems really [ __ ] benevolent of men. >> I don't think that that's benevolent. I think that's like the lowest bar of human decency that they're not keeping slaves. >> Here's you know what's really funny
02:59:01
Andrew Wilsonabout that argument? I a woman said this to me once and I thought about it for a second and I realized something really important, right? That when you have power over the uh most vulnerable in society, in this case children, you
02:59:14
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] abort them. And so the thing is like I do think that we're pretty benevolent. I think that like a million and a half aborted babies a year is pretty [ __ ] malevolent. And I think
02:59:25
Andrew Wilsonthat I think that when you have the power over life and death, you [ __ ] kill. And when we have the power, and we do collectively over life and death, we liberate. And I do think that that's
02:59:37
Andrew Wilsonbenevolent. And I think that that's part of men's nature. And I do think that you have to appeal to us for all of your rights. And that that what you guys always think is just like [ __ ] fantasy. And I I I don't understand it. >> Do you think humans should have the
02:59:50
Andrew Wilsonobligation to like I don't know have like human decency though? >> Do I from a Christian worldview? Yes. Yes. I appeal to Christ Jesus and I do
02:59:59
Andrew Wilsonthink that there are that God gives commands in which that we're supposed to engage with the world and I think men follow those commands and that's one of the reasons men are so benevolent. >> Do you notice do you would you agree
03:00:12
Andrew Wilsonthat there's a lot of different people with a lot of different worldviews who would also believe in the idea of human decency? >> Yeah. Well, I I guess all you need to really show me is all this human decency
03:00:23
Andrew Wilsonin the rest of the world because outside of Christian nations, I don't really see Hang on. Outside of Christian nations, >> I don't see any of this supposed benevolence and this supposed universalization. I see the opposite.
03:00:35
Andrew WilsonOutside of Christian nations, what I see is subjugation and torture and madness and insanity and [ __ ] That's what I see. I don't know what you see outside of, but that's what I see.
03:00:47
Andrew WilsonSo, I think we could both agree that human decency should be taken into account. >> Well, I think that what makes humans decent is Christianity. And I think that >> I mean, I'm not Christian and I believe >> I know. And that's why the the justification that you give for all of
03:01:00
Andrew Wilsonyour rights is preference, which gives me the equal right be based on my preference to take your rights away. That's what's insane. >> Go ahead. >> I'm sorry. Can I ask if you if 51% of the world right now said we should keep