Andrew Wilson DEBATES Amouranth! CRASH OUT Kylie Update?! Woke College Feminists! | Dating Talk #268
Date: 2025-11-10
Duration: 7h 48m
Guests
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_02Willow(guest)
SPEAKER_03Lola(guest)
SPEAKER_05Courtney(guest)
SPEAKER_06Shona(guest)
SPEAKER_07Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_08Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_10Melissa (Bodybuilder)(guest)
SPEAKER_11Jake(guest)
SPEAKER_12Nick Lee(guest)
SPEAKER_13Amouranth(guest)
SPEAKER_14Savannah(guest)
Key Moments
00:02:44
IntroAll panelists introduce themselves including Amouranth, Nick Lee, and Andrew Wilson
00:17:00
Key MomentAmouranth/Nick tell full home invasion story. Nick shot invader with 9mm while wife was held hostage.
00:28:00
QuoteAmouranth reveals gross OnlyFans earnings of ~$74-75 million
00:30:12
ControversyDiscussion of Amouranth's vagina yeast beer made by Polish company and bath water sales
01:39:00
Key MomentAndrew and Willow debate whether OnlyFans is prostitution. Andrew: only difference is a screen.
02:22:00
Key MomentAndrew presents force doctrine to Shona: men monopolize force, women can never collectively take rights from men.
03:00:00
Key MomentDeep moral objectivism debate. Andrew: without God, if men decide women are cattle, there's no justification against it.
03:26:00
ControversyCourtney argues women should call partners 'master.' Most panelists reject this.
06:10:00
ControversyCourtney reveals ex-husband's suicide-by-cop. She texted 'you are the cancer' day he died. Family barred her from funeral.
07:15:00
QuoteAmouranth: 'I hate sex work too. I just like the money from it a lot.'
07:18:00
AgreementShona explicitly agrees men are primary victims of war by metric of death
07:22:00
QuoteMelissa's coconut oil story: refused extra fats even during sex because of macros
“He went to put coconut oil on his dick and I was like that's way too many fats.”
Topics Discussed
00:02:44
Guest Introductions and Relationship Status
All panelists introduce themselves. Includes Amouranth/Nick, Andrew Wilson, Shona (18, UCSB), Lola, Willow, Melissa (IFBB pro), Savannah, Courtney.
00:17:00
Amouranth Home Invasion
3 armed men broke in seeking crypto. Nick shot one with 9mm. All 3 caught, face 5-999 years in Texas.
00:26:30
OnlyFans Earnings
Amouranth grossed ~$74-75M on OnlyFans. Peak $30M/year. Quarter-million-dollar single day. Vagina yeast beer by Polish company.
01:39:00
Prostitution Definition Debate
Andrew argues all sex work is prostitution. Willow distinguishes between prostitutes (with pimps) and sex workers (with choice).
02:21:00
Force Doctrine and Feminism
Andrew presents force doctrine: men monopolize force, so women always appeal to men for rights. Shona pushes back. Andrew counters with Middle East/Afghanistan examples.
03:00:00
Objective vs Subjective Morality
Deep philosophical debate. Andrew: without God, all moral claims reduce to preference. Lola argues for biological instincts.
03:26:00
Women Should Call Men Master
Courtney advocates women calling partners 'master.' Panel debates who gets tiebreaker in marriage disagreements.
04:12:00
Crash Out Kylie Update
Update on guest who claimed she was 'digitally assaulted' and threatened to sue Brian.
04:29:00
Self-Rating Looks
Most women rate 8-10. Andrew and Brian find it delusional. Discussion of objective vs subjective beauty.
06:00:00
Income Requirements
Shona: six figures. Amouranth pre-fame: $60K. Lola: doesn't matter. Melissa: $250K. Savannah: $50K.
06:10:00
Courtney's Ex-Husband Suicide
Ex died by suicide-by-cop. She texted 'you are the cancer' day he died. Told him 'you could be anyone' during oral sex. Family barred her from funeral.
06:35:00
Women Are Primary Victims of War
Andrew: death is worse than trauma, men die overwhelmingly more. Shona eventually concedes men are primary victims by death toll.
07:11:00
Body Count Reveal
Melissa ~30. Savannah ~13. Willow ~30. Lola 4. Shona 0. Andrew's husband says 'wild 20-25.'
Transcript
Page 2 of 8
00:59:55
Andrew WilsonI'm saying is that social hazing itself, I think I think that if you take the bullying aspect and you say, "Well, we have to eliminate social hazing because it can lead to bullying." I think that that's when you're going way too far.
01:00:07
LolaYou're going outside of basic human interactions because we do kind of need to socially haze each other a bit. It's kind of necessary. >> I would like to add I do kind of think that we are acting as if like we're talking about social hazing as if it's
01:00:20
Lolalike the only way to push someone in the right direction. I've had very kind, very supportive friends tell me that something I was doing wasn't good for me and [snorts] like really encourage me and it has like those have been things that have changed my life who did that, right?
01:00:35
Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. >> Yeah. The social hazing comes before the friend comes. That's the that's part of the social hazing process. That's where >> where you're kind of developing the group dynamic, right? The social hazing happens before there's a friendship.
01:00:47
Lola>> Yeah. But if I meet someone that I don't like in some way or I, you know, their values don't align with mine, my goal isn't to change them. My goal is to find someone who I do want to be friends with. >> Yeah. I understand your goal may not be
01:00:58
Andrew Wilsonto change a person, right? But you probably have people that you find unpleasant to be around. Absolutely. >> Or you don't particularly care for their company or you don't like them very much. You don't like when they're around maybe friend groups that you have.
01:01:11
Andrew Wilson>> And that's where social hazing comes in. It's the idea of like creating a rejection of space between you and other people because you don't want them either a part of your life or a part of the people around you's life. Uh because they're just unpleasant for you to be whether they're unpleasant or not has
01:01:25
Lolanothing to do with it. They're unpleasant for you. And that's what that's kind of what social hazing is. >> I just think that we're completely capable of doing it in a way that isn't like mean. That's it. I don't I think
01:01:38
Andrew Wilsonthat >> yeah I know that there's a big emphasis uh when you talk about this issue between men and women where for women there's a value structure that they have
01:01:48
Andrew Wilsonaround I call it the cult of be nice right it's like be nice means everything um men aren't really that way they don't really give a [ __ ] about nice really it's not all that important to us um and
01:02:00
Andrew Wilsonso we talk about the issue in a totally different way right that's that's how we we discuss the issue but I don't think that women even though they ascribe to be nice that box of be nice. I don't think they actually are. I think that they use
01:02:12
Andrew Wilson>> I do not like the word nice. I think I think kind [laughter] and good but good is not equivalent to nice. >> That's not equivalent to nice. Yeah. >> Kind. >> It can be very kind. Yes.
01:02:25
Courtney>> Can be. >> It's not. It's well it's developing your >> It's not It's called the gateway to bullying cuz you start there. [laughter] >> That's Well, the Okay. Okay. Well, then I mean speaking is a gateway to bullying then.
01:02:38
Andrew Wilson>> Well, I would also like to add social is a lot more approximate because it's about judging others for something. >> Yeah. We we unfortunately though we make value judgments on things all day long and on people all day long and that's good that we >> keep saying value judgments but these
01:02:50
Andrew Wilsonare superficial >> no I'm saying you make value judgments on people all the time. Rightfully so. So like for instance uh if it's really late at night and there's a homeless guy
01:03:00
Andrew Wilsonwho has a needle and it's going into his arm, right? My guess is you don't stick around that area very long. Right. >> Well, you're judging his values, aren't you? >> Okay. But then >> hang on, hang on. Aren't you? >> Yes, I am.
01:03:14
Shona>> Yes, you are. So, you're making a value judgement. >> And so, what I do is I put distance between me and that person. But the kind of social the kind of social you're talking about seems to be more like >> unwarranted comments and like actually going out of your way to say something to that person like, "Oh, you should
01:03:28
Andrew Wilsonlose weight kind of thing." >> You know, I'm not sure you were giving earlier. I'm not sure that it's unwarranted. I would consider what you just did there where you're like I'm not going to be anywhere around that to be a form of social hazing. >> I'm completely I'll say I'm completely fine with that form of social hazing.
01:03:40
Andrew WilsonBeyond that I don't really agree with. >> Are you sure? Like I think I can think of a lot of times where maybe there would be people around who you don't particularly care for. Right. Uh but maybe you're getting to know them and as you're getting to know them, you know,
01:03:53
Andrew Wilsonmaybe you guys uh you're talking past each other a little bit. Starts with a misunderstanding and then maybe later on you become friends, right? The way that this is going though in the beginning, right, the reason you have misunderstandings and things like this
01:04:05
Andrew Wilsonis you're both kind of pressing each other. Now, you may be doing this on the undertone, right? >> Respectfully and maturely. Yeah, >> maybe or maybe not, right? It depends on the person and respectfully and maturely is going to be mean different things to different people. Like for men, respect
01:04:19
Courtneymeans something totally different than it does to women. And so does meanness. Meanness means something totally different to men than it does women. >> Can we add context to this? It's like let's say there's a person in the street, they've got a needle from their arm. You know, it's like I think we are
01:04:32
Courtneyall within our rights. If we don't know this person, we're going to like, sorry, like it's not my not my yard, [laughter] not my problem. I'm going the other way. That's not that's not bullying, though.
01:04:43
CourtneyOr even hazing. I think hazing is like, okay, now my close friend just, you know, fell off the wagon and what do I do as a person? Do will I be nice and
01:04:54
Melissa (Bodybuilder)just pretend I didn't see anything or will I be kind and say that's this is becoming a problem? >> I don't believe that's social hazing. >> Yeah, that's not >> it's just looking out for your friends.
01:05:05
Melissa (Bodybuilder)>> Is like a totally different like >> like like if you think of like sorities and fraternities hazing is like you kind of >> humiliate yourself. >> Yeah. Like [ __ ] with your friends like just >> Yeah. mess with your friends or if you have
01:05:18
Courtney>> I mean that I think you're just making a decision on how you want to position yourself. >> Okay. So do I make fun of the here my friend that's it in order to get the them to weird >> paths sometimes like sometimes for instance yeah it can be very healthy to
01:05:31
Courtneydo >> in a way that seems like a defined balance versus like let me just be straightforward with you >> look sometimes it is the case and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news here
01:05:43
Andrew Wilsonbut sometimes saying look what you're doing is kind of silly doesn't work as well as you're a [ __ ] idiot and that's the truth sometimes saying, "Look, um, you know, maybe you should
01:05:53
Andrew Wilsoncalm down." Doesn't work as well as you need to shut the [ __ ] up. Sometimes that form of interaction actually works better to adjust behavior than the cult of be nice. And I think that I think, by the way, that women are just
01:06:07
Andrew Wilsonsuperficially nice most of the time anyway. Not not actually. It's just very su it's just a very superficial way that they engage. Um, and I think that men are kind of more open and honest about
01:06:18
Andrew Wilsonabout how it is that they that the basic human interactions work. Like uh we're your perception of me if I was around my friend group would be that we were really mean bastards. Um, but we're
01:06:29
Andrew Wilsonreally not like uh I mean pick each other up. If someone's having problems, we make like they have financial issues, we're going to take care of it. If they got, you know, social issues going on, we have their back. This and that. But we're going to call them all kinds of names and we're going to ri them. We're
01:06:43
Shonagoing to make fun of them. we're going to clown on them and like that. Yeah, that's all part of the social interaction of people. >> Yeah, I think that's totally cool between close friends and a friend group. I just I wouldn't say you should be like using that kind of language on
01:06:56
Andrew Wilsonmaybe someone you don't know well. >> I don't know. Usually we do it within 20 minutes of someone you just met. You're like, "Hey, [ __ ] idiot. Look what you just did." And they're like, you know, they give a That's part of what social hazing is. Like it's very common. It's very very common for men to do this.
01:07:10
Courtney>> Mr. Um, have you heard I I know you're a very welleducated man, well read, well spoken. One of the things >> definitely not well educated, but >> don't you have a like a degree in religious studies and no?
01:07:24
Courtney>> No. >> Okay. Must have been wrong. Okay. >> Do your R&D. >> I my R&D was wrong. Chad G. >> If only I had an only fans, you would have known all of this. >> Spend too much time R&D me. So [laughter] me and my boyfriend. Anyways,
01:07:35
Courtneybut um okay. So I must I must [laughter] melt down here. Okay. Go ahead. What? May I may I get a word? Um my point being is there's a a famous 19th century
01:07:48
Courtneyuh author by the name of Charles Bodilair who uh created this um beautiful essay on laughter saying that
01:07:56
Courtneyit is actually satanic [snorts] um due to people like for example finding comedy of someone else's pain someone who slips and falls a lot of people who
01:08:09
Courtneyaren't involved will go and laugh at them and say oh that's, you know, like because it's just a it's a guttural reaction. Um, it's and I think it's
01:08:19
Courtneypertinent be because it's when when people laugh, it's either due to the
01:08:28
Courtneymadness of their own uh superiority or to the inferior inferiority of others. And [clears throat] I think that hazing is >> I was just about to say, do you think children laughing is satanic? So that's
01:08:42
Courtney[laughter] >> this is not this right now. There's a specific >> you quoted. What the [ __ ] are you quoting? >> So with with a with a with a kid with a kid, it's a bit of a different story.
01:08:52
CourtneyThey mimic. They learn. And so when they're expressing joy, it's joy. Tickle is is a bit different. >> You know, I used to think I used to think a lot of the things you like with
01:09:04
Andrew Wilsonkids, for instance, that kids just mimic till I had them. They don't just mimic. They have their own little thoughts and they have their own little like they're little human beings. That's true in development. I agree with that. But
01:09:17
Andrew Wilsonthey're not just mimickers. They're not we're not born blank slates. People have personalities ingrained in them and you can almost see it the day that they're born. You know, you can almost see you can almost see it right away. And uh yeah, so I don't I don't believe in
01:09:29
Andrew Wilsonblank slate theory. I don't think that that kids just mimic what they see and that's what they become. I think they have a personality associated with it and the environment correlates with that. And then from there they become the human being they're going to become.
01:09:41
Andrew WilsonAnd I just I just point this out too that like I was listening to a comedian this morning. It was cracking me up. He was talking about our jokes, right? He was talking about our jokes and of course those are taboo. You can never make those. They're terrible, right?
01:09:54
Andrew WilsonThey're horrible. But he made this great point and he said, you know, the reason that people made our jokes and laugh so hard about them, right? Everyone was laughing wasn't because they hated women. Because when you think about all
01:10:06
Andrew Wilsonof the things that are funny, it's really [ __ ] that's [ __ ] morbid and horrible. And the reason that we're laughing about it is because we're taking we're making sense of the morbid world that we live in and we're giving
01:10:18
Andrew Wilsonit context in a way that we can kind of deal with it. And that's what the whole point of like the best jokes really are. And if you really think about it now, I mean, maybe not you, maybe maybe not
01:10:30
Andrew Wilsonyou. Maybe every unclean joke is terrible and you have no sense of humor. But the thing is, like most people, for most people >> kind of like the more morbid the joke is, right, the funnier it can really be.
01:10:43
Andrew WilsonAnd that's why he was saying like, you know, you got to you got to start drawing some lines here on what it is we can talk about, can't talk about it comes to our jokes, uh or in in this case when it comes to social hazing,
01:10:54
Andrew Wilsonyou're not allowed to do that because well, after all, uh that could lead to bullying or it's a gateway. And it's like that just I think ignores human interactions altogether. >> So anyway, I'm done with my diet.
01:11:06
Shona>> I was going to say first of all, I I'm not against every unclean joke. I'm all for edgy, dark humor here and there, but when it comes to our jokes, there's a lot of people who aren't laughing at our jokes or making them because they're trying to make sense of the morbid world we live in. They're making these jokes
01:11:19
Andrew Wilsonbecause they don't care about what women are going to do and because they don't take it seriously. >> That's every joke, >> but that's kind of a bad thing in this case. >> So then no So then no morbid jokes because somebody could be taking it seriously or >> no jokes made in that insensitive
01:11:33
Andrew Wilsonmanner, >> right? No, nobody's allowed. Nobody's allowed anymore to >> Is that what I said? >> to to laugh at the at at insensitive jokes because you think they're insensitive. Even though like this is how we engage with the world. This is how
01:11:45
Andrew Wilson>> I'm saying no one should laugh at or make like our jokes. >> I know. I know that you think that, but my argument to you is like then why can they laugh at any insensitive joke? Why are they what who gets to decide like
01:11:57
Shonawhich insensitive joke a person gets to laugh at and which one they don't? So, I mean, with an R joke, you're making reference to like women going through like a traumatic experience and their consent being violated. And, you know, there's a lots of like
01:12:09
Andrew Wilson>> when black people are talking about slavery and making jokes about that, right? This horrible thing that's terrible, right? What are they doing? They're contextualizing and they're laughing when Blazing Saddles When Blazing Saddles had a scene where it's
01:12:22
Andrew Wilsonlike the sheriff is the n-word, right? With a ding and they were clowning on slavery and clowning on Jewish people and this type of thing. The the whole point was trying to make sense of this like horrifically morbid world that we
01:12:34
Shonalive in. And how else do we engage with it except to laugh about >> you can make sense of your own experiences or regarding like your own demographic. But to to laugh at someone else's suffering when it's like >> so then no insensitive jokes allowed.
01:12:46
Shona>> Well, I would say there like the line that I would draw is like okay well it's obviously not going to be a clear line. >> Yeah, it's not a clear line >> when it comes [laughter] to like it's just kind of common sense though. Like it's it's >> it's not kind of common sense. >> Okay. They won't.
01:12:58
Shona>> You know, like I find things funny that you don't find funny. And what makes it common sense that you're allowed to find them funny and I'm not? >> Okay, let's say I have a friend who like did something really stupid and like I make fun of them for that and that's like an edgy joke or whatever
01:13:10
Shona>> or whatever. Like your friends making fun of each other. That's like one type of edgy joke. And then when it comes to an R joke, that's something that >> there's a lot more. >> There's a lot more like that's a lot more serious. >> We understand. Do me a favor. Scoot
01:13:22
Brian Atlasthree inches that way. Move your mic along with you. Um, Halloween was happened pretty recently. Um, what do you think about people who dressed up as Charlie Kirk?
01:13:34
Brian Atlas>> I'm sure you've probably going to actually going to the very liberal college and university that you go to and being a confessed pretty leftist
01:13:45
Brian Atlasperson. Uh, you seem to, at least the last conversation we had also with you, you guys seemed a bit not so displeased with the fact that Charlie Kirk was assassinated. >> I was very displeased. I made that very
01:13:59
Brian Atlasclear. [snorts] >> Given this, Given this, >> I'm sure there were people, college students, many leftists who dressed up as Charlie Kirk with a fake wound to
01:14:11
Brian Atlastheir neck as a Halloween costume. Do you think >> so? >> When you like, >> would you find that humorous? Just I want to make sure I don't find that funny. I want to make sure you're consistent in your objection to humor. >> I don't find that funny because that's something that's like very serious and
01:14:24
Shonahe just died and I think that's disrespectful. And also like you kind of pointed to me like oh people like you did that. >> I mean I think there's a separate a distinction that should be made between >> I just want people like that. Well, I just want to ensure that when you're
01:14:36
Brian Atlasgoing to be policing dark humor that you don't just, you know, you you have a fair application of that which you're policing. >> Okay. You know what I think when it comes to crimes, traumatizing events, like that's where I say it's kind of a
01:14:50
Shonaweird zone. >> Okay. So, consistent. >> So, a family guy makes like a 9/11 joke. >> No good. Too dark. >> I mean, I personally wouldn't make it. Again, I I don't even when I say like I'm not a huge fan of this kind of joke.
01:15:02
Andrew WilsonI I don't go around like policing people and saying, "Hey, don't say that. Don't say that." I just surround myself with people who have a better sense of humor. >> I get that, but you can be funny with >> I understand that like for you personally, that's probably the case.
01:15:13
Andrew WilsonBut you would admit, I think, right, that there's tons of leftwing organizations that do and they do deplatform people for making those jokes and they do actually try to, you know, make it so that people become depersoned
01:15:26
Shonafor life for making those jokes. Well, I mean, I think that's like a free speech thing and I wouldn't I don't believe in depersoning or deplatforming people. >> Yeah. Right. But you can cancel people. That's not free speech. >> But I think it's the very idea that that
01:15:37
Andrew Wilsonpeople advocate the idea that, you know, anything is so insensitive that's just, you know, you're just not allowed to to go after it. I agree. Like look, some of that [ __ ] makes me mad. Like when the Charlie Kirk stuff happens, makes me mad. >> Makes me mad, too.
01:15:50
Andrew Wilson>> You know, and I'm like, look, what what are you [ __ ] doing, you piece of [ __ ] Sure, that's terrible. That's awful. You know what I mean? But on the other hand, >> why why does that make you mad and not hard? >> But me, but it making me mad doesn't
01:16:00
Andrew Wilsonmean that I'm I'm don't understand that people like this who may be saying insensitive things or have insensitive jokes that offend my delicate sensibilities, right, aren't actually
01:16:12
Andrew Wilsondoing that because they're trying to make sense of the the morbid the like the morbid stances of the world. Now, there's a difference between what's going on. There's a difference between that and like the guy deserved it. He that should have happened to him, you know? That's a different whole that's a
01:16:25
Shonadifferent thing altogether I think. >> But even people who are doing it like that, they're not like trying to that's not the process. That's not the thought process that's going on in people's heads. A lot of people who are making >> how do you know what's going on in their heads? >> Because of the sheer amount of people who make jokes about Charlie Kirk out of
01:16:38
Andrew Wilsonlike dis just like blatant disrespect and like oh I hate him. F him. >> Yeah. Those people but those people >> those are majority of people are making the intent known. So like for instance somebody's making an R joke and they're
01:16:50
Andrew Wilsonlike yeah and those [ __ ] deserved it. >> That's most of our joke makers. No, it's not. The thing is is like look, if that's the case, it's like maybe you have a leg to stand on there, right? But just like you would with the Charlie
01:17:01
Andrew WilsonKirk thing, >> but it's like just to to make a joke uh you know, in regard and it has the rword somewhere in it, you know what I mean? And people laugh and now it's just too insensitive or uh you know, a racial
01:17:14
Andrew Wilsonjoke or something like that. It's like at some point you got to stop the the over sensit like being overly sensitive to these things because like it takes away well it takes away a useful tool people have for dealing with the world. >> There's better you can make sense of the
01:17:26
Andrew Wilsonworld and events in much better ways. Just educate yourself or something. >> How do you know like what makes you think that you get to >> because I understand these events and I understand these things without having to make these decision. >> How do you how do you how do you know that you can govern how people interact with the world with humor? Like humor is
01:17:40
Andrew Wilsonreally >> I'm not governing others. Humor is really interubjective and it's really personalized. And the thing is is like you can say an offensive thing to someone you didn't even mean it to be offensive, right? >> But it's also not just about you and how you're using tools to make sense of
01:17:53
Shonathings in the world. >> It's about everybody but you. It's about the nebulous hole. >> No, I'm saying it's about also having just respect for, for example, like women who have gone through that or people who like 9/11 or Charlie Kirk. Like I think it's good to just have
01:18:06
Andrew Wilsonrespect and like a certain level of sensitivity towards things like that. the same way the Charlie Kirk thing pissed you off. Which I think it's really interesting that that bothers you, but then like our jokes don't bother. >> Do you see the distinction of somebody saying if somebody didn't I already
01:18:18
Andrew Wilsonqualify this? Like if somebody said >> Charlie Kirk had that coming? Good. He deserved it. >> That's what people are saying. That's what people say. Oh, she she had it coming. She deserved it. No, they're not saying that. >> So, do you think they're like, "Oh, that
01:18:30
Andrew Wilsonevent was so shocking. Let me dress up as him for Halloween so I can process this shocking event." I think there's some people who didn't think that he had that coming and just were trying to be edgy. I think that's the case. I've
01:18:41
Andrew Wilsontalked to him. I could talk to him on TikTok. I didn't think that. Now, there was also some of them who I [ __ ] knew, okay, wanted and they would tell me. They'd be like, "Yeah, I wish that guy would [ __ ] die." Good.
01:18:53
Shona>> Do you notice how you can be a normal individual who just like sees what happens and processes it normally without dressing up as him and how that's maybe like a better thing? >> Yeah, I get it. But we have to but you have to have contextualization for
01:19:05
Shonathings. Contextualize things normally and don't be a weird rude joke. >> Well, what's normal? Is trans normal? >> What >> is transnormal? >> Are trans people normal? >> Yeah, it's just is being transnormal.
01:19:17
Andrew Wilson>> I mean, it's not like like most people aren't trans, so I guess it's not. >> It's not normal, so we can't. So, then you I should process trans people the normal way by by being like, well, it's not normal. Is that how should I do I
01:19:29
Andrew Wilsonshould do that? >> Okay. I'm I'm struggling to understand how you're like well I'm just trying to draw you make these appeals to normaly and if you make an appeal to normaly you're like appealing to well that's not normal what you're doing is not normal
01:19:41
Andrew Wilsonit's irregular it's not normal it's like well then you have to apply that to everything that's not normal then >> okay so are you saying like how how does someone process the existence of trans people given that it's not a common thing >> I think they use humor >> you say okay you want to identify that way I'm going to mind my own business
01:19:54
Andrew Wilson>> I think they use humor that's what I think I think most people use humor to process it for the more >> I mean most people don't make our jokes and dress up as Charlie Kirk and joke about that kind of thing. >> I agree most people don't do that. But I think and I'm glad most people do that. >> But I do think that people make very
01:20:06
Andrew Wilsonmorbid jokes about Charlie Kirk that don't mean him harm just like I think that >> I don't think that's a good thing. I don't think it's good to make >> I know you don't. But my point is again I know you don't think so. But I'm making the case that I think a lot of people don't think so. >> Yeah. But that's nice. But I'm just saying like
01:20:19
Shona>> and that's a better society than if everyone were >> How do you know that that's a better It doesn't seem like curtailing what people can say is a better society. >> It's one based on less judgment and out of more respect for other people. >> Is that it? Is that what our highest value should be? Just less judgment on
01:20:32
Andrew Wilsonpeople because society's gotten pretty [ __ ] up since we stopped judging people. It's gotten pretty [ __ ] up. In case you didn't not What age? What age do you think you're going to be able to buy a house? >> In my hopefully in my late 20s.
01:20:46
Andrew Wilson>> Hope hopefully in your late 20s. Maybe early. >> I don't know how my whole life planned out. I'm 18. >> Yeah, I know. But maybe your early 30s, you know. >> Depends on the trajectory of my career. >> It gets worse and worse and worse every single year. Right. >> Okay. Are we talking about the economy now or judging?
01:20:58
Andrew Wilson>> It's not just the economy. It's the the entire judgment of society, the way that the way in which we engage with society at large has now been put into this box of be nice. And it's like, you know,
01:21:09
Andrew Wilsonmaybe maybe if we were a little meaner, it'd be like, uh, you know, no, [ __ ] that. You shouldn't have to wait till you're 30 to buy a house right now. [ __ ] that. And [ __ ] you. Or maybe you could look over and you could be like, "Ah,
01:21:21
Andrew Wilsonyou know, maybe a lot of these essay cases actually would go down if it were the case that people interacted better uh with the environments that they were in, with the clothing that they wore and the people that they were around." Like, that makes [ __ ] sense to people. It's
01:21:34
Andrew Wilsonlike, well, that's too much. You can't say that. And it's like, I think you can and should. >> You can say something without making a stupid joke about it. >> Yeah. But I mean, how how that's processed by people is often through humor. That's my point.
01:21:47
ShonaWhat what do you find acceptable to joke about? >> Like can black people joke about white people >> like make racial? >> Can you can you give me like a specific example and then I'll like say yes or like if I find that acceptable?
01:21:58
Brian Atlas>> Can I make a a racist joke towards white people as an example? I >> can you as a white person? >> I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm Why don't you ask answer my question first? Is it okay? Like
01:22:09
Brian Atlasthere's this concept of punching up. Can >> Can you call me a mayonnaise eater? Can a black person make like a racially insensitive joke towards whites? A joke? >> Yeah, they can. >> Can a white person
01:22:22
Brian Atlas>> Oh, no. No. Are you saying if I think it's right or wrong? >> Uh, or if they What do you mean? Like, are you are you asking me do I think >> should black comedians never
01:22:33
Brian Atlasdirect any sort of joke, racially racial jokes in the context like white towards white people? I mean, I don't think that's nearly as
01:22:44
Brian Atlassevere as like a our joke, >> but I'm not again I'm not here I'm not here to say you should do this. >> Grant it's not as severe. Uh are you against black people making jokes about uh white people? Like racial jokes about white people?
01:22:58
Brian Atlas>> What is a racial joke you can make about a white person? Just >> Okay. Can you make a sexist joke >> like towards women? >> Towards anybody, but sure. Towards women. >> Well, yeah, you can make a sexist joke. >> Are there such things as sexist jokes? >> Are there such things as racist jokes?
01:23:11
Shona>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious like what a racist joke is towards white person cuz like usually there's not as many judgments towards like being white like oh you're white. >> I for the sake of conversation I'll go
01:23:20
Brian Atlasahead and grant it. But you can still make a racist joke about white people. >> Am I Are you asking me if I think that's right or wrong? >> Well, I'm just first I'm asking if it's possible. >> Well, purely because I I struggle to
01:23:33
Brian Atlasthink of an example of that kind of joke. I'm like a little >> Well, whether you can think of an example or not would be irrelevant. I don't need you to. >> I just don't know what that looks like, you know? >> Well, could you think of a racist joke
01:23:44
Brian Atlastowards a black person? >> Yes, because there's a lot more of like there's a lot more connotations. >> Uh, how about just like uh a joke that involves uh the C-word or something?
01:23:58
Brian Atlas>> Are you asking me if I think that's right or wrong? >> I mean, I personally like I think it's like not the best word to use. Okay. But should we preclude or would you be in favor of precluding black comedians from making racist
01:24:11
Shona>> like policing them and saying like, "Hey, you you should do that. You can't say that." >> Well, okay. In the same way that you say we shouldn't make uh rape jokes, right? You're totally >> that that has to do with like a whole
01:24:21
Brian Atlascrime like and a like again I'm different. I understand it's different. >> We would agree that racism and rape are both bad things, right? >> Yes. Yes. And you might categorize
01:24:32
Shona>> racism towards white people today is not as bad as sexual like full on rape. >> How do we put like a label on how do you how do you get to make these judgments? Who the [ __ ] makes these judgments?
01:24:45
Andrew Wilson>> Let me ask you a question, Andrew. If someone if someone uses the C word on you, is that less harmful or more harmful than a woman getting? >> From now on, everything you say on this topic, listen, everything you say on this topic is going to offend me. So,
01:24:57
Willowit's inappropriate for you to say. >> Again, I'm not policing other people. Okay, just ask the questions. >> Depends on some level of insecurity. I'm Cuban and Irish and everybody always says that I'm white. But do I get like personally offended by that? No, I
01:25:10
Willowdon't. I don't care. And I've been sexually assaulted. And >> I'll make this super simple. I'll make this super simple. >> Don't understand the level of getting to decide on what's like so offensive for you or anything. And like how racism is any worse than sexual assault because
01:25:24
Willowit's actually about the same. They're both crimes against somebody. their dignity, who they are as a person, their cultures, and like at the end of the day, really just like surround yourself with people then that have the same interests as you do. Like I'm super blunt, super witty. When I first meet a
01:25:37
Brian Atlasguy, I'm pretty right rough off the bat. I want to know how to joke and have fun and stuff. >> You would have to provide like a specific ex like if we're talking about
01:25:46
Brian Atlasracism. This can be anywhere from like very mild forms of racism to like fullon like let's uh you know like fullon uh slavery like if slavery were to come
01:25:58
Brian Atlasback or something we could probably make you could probably make the argument that if slavery were to come back in totality and like >> chatel slavery. Yeah. >> Okay. And like >> you know
01:26:09
Brian Atlas>> how do you chat? That's totally my like what what's the comparison here? Like I would probably argue I would probably argue like cuz I I don't know why you're trying to bring this here. It's kind of irrelevant to
01:26:20
Brian Atlasthe line of questioning, but like if we enslaved like a million people in this country, that would be worse than like one individual essay. So in any case,
01:26:31
Brian Atlaslike sort of when I I guess when I'm talking about racism like you know uh a racist joke, I don't even know why this is even Yes, of course. like an actual com uh an act of committed rape. Yes,
01:26:44
Brian Atlasthat's ob obviously worse than a racist joke. There's no dispute there. In any case, though, should black comedians I'd like an answer to the question. Finally, should black comedians be Hold on, let
01:26:55
Brian Atlasme finish. Be procluded from making racist jokes in the direction of white people. >> When you say procluded, do you mean like policed deplatformed? Because I don't believe in that kind of thing.
01:27:05
Brian Atlas>> Okay. You said uh people should not should not make rape jokes, right? Is that your your position? >> I don't think it's a good thing. I don't
01:27:15
Brian Atlasagain I don't go. Do you think it's not a good thing when black comedians make racist jokes about white people? >> It's not a great thing, but it's not as bad as the our jokes because again, it's a different degree,
01:27:28
Brian Atlas>> right? I I understand. I want to just say I really do mind my own business when it comes to other people's really quickly. Don't police other people. >> Should people uh should any comedian, I guess, not make rape jokes?
01:27:39
Shona>> Oh, I mean, do I think it's a good or a bad thing? Cuz again, I don't believe in policing other people. >> Well, it's a bad thing. I think it's a bad thing they shouldn't do it. Yeah.
01:27:49
Brian Atlas>> Okay. Should black comedians then not make racist jokes about white people? >> I It's not as bad. >> Sure. I grant it. >> It's It's a little more of a gray area cuz it's a little more of a gray area.
01:28:02
Brian Atlas>> Okay. Should white comedians not make racist jokes about black people? >> I don't think it's a good thing because >> is it worse >> than racist jokes towards white people? >> Mhm. >> I think it's worse. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> I mean, if there's like a whole like
01:28:15
Shonahistory of like oppression and marginalization there. It's like there's a lot more depth and layers to it. >> I have one chat coming through here. >> Claim donated $299.
01:28:27
SPEAKER_01>> Thank you, man. >> 300 Brian WTF. You trying to buy a plane? Andrew, you effing rule. How do you circumcise a redneck? >> You kick a sister in the jaw.
01:28:41
Brian Atlas[laughter] >> What? >> Okay. Uh we have uh [laughter]
01:28:48
Brian Atlasas a as a reminder, guys, we have uh Reed is 200, TTS is 300, Venmo Cash App, whatever. Pod, twitch.tv/w whatever. shopwhat whatever.com discord.gg/w
01:29:01
Brian Atlaswhatever guys if you're enjoying the stream like the video like the video and uh eyes thank you for the membership man. Okay, a couple quick things. We have two other chats coming through then we can continue on with the convo. Uh
01:29:13
Brian Atlasall right Adzil Brian your favorite Brit is back. Andrew welcome back salute boys need the Avengers to assemble before Christmas. Andrew Cup and Jake on the big panel free facil felicity Michael is
01:29:25
Brian AtlasMichael Jackson is king. He's our adil. How's Q doing? Have you had him on recently? >> Uh, it's been a while. It's been a while, but uh, yeah, it'd be good to have him back on here soon. >> Nice kid. >> Good guy. Uh, my man, you're
01:29:36
Brian Atlasgood-looking, got drip, good shot with a gun, and rocking the fedora like MJ. Smooth criminal. Can we get a he? [laughter] Yeah. Uh, but you decide to settle for a OF muppet. Why are you talking [ __ ]
01:29:50
Amouranthabout my my homie K? >> I didn't do OF when we met. We decided to go into that together. And where do you think the drip came from? Hello. >> You [laughter] think you had this before? >> But isn't that objectively worse in a
01:30:01
Andrew Wilsonway? >> No, he's not settling for like an OF muppet or if it was more of like a was more of going into a business opportunity together. >> Yeah, but that that's what that that's
01:30:13
Andrew Wilsonwhat I'm saying. Like wouldn't that in a way be like you if you had a wife and she wasn't engaged in prostitution and then you engaged with her in prostitution? I consider OF to be >> Where's the prostitution? I consider it prostitution.
01:30:27
Andrew Wilson>> Oh, >> he's selling sex. >> Well, I can consider anything to be a label. >> Yeah. I mean, >> yeah, but I think that there Well, look, I'm just I'm just telling you how I consider it. I consider it prostitution.
01:30:37
Andrew WilsonUm I think that sex works broadly falls under the category of prostitution. >> Um but if that's the case, it's like if your wife wasn't engaged in prostitution, then was right, how that
01:30:50
Andrew Wilsonseems to me even more objectively worse than if she was a prostitute. and then, you know, maybe later she wasn't or whatever. That almost seems objectively worse, like almost you allowed the corruption to happen type of thing. I
01:31:03
Nick Leethink that that's the intent of the chat. Anyway, >> well, I think uh the the part I think that I focus on is like the settle. And so, it's like, yeah, I think anytime you feel like you're settling, that's like
01:31:15
Nick Leeprobably something you should, you know, consider again. But like, uh, you know, that's the presupposition being made, right? cuz uh if it's not settling and I'm okay with it, then what's the uh
01:31:26
Nick Leeissue? I guess >> it's our marriage not uh if he doesn't want that. That's >> yeah, that's true. But I think I think from the at least if you look at the social
01:31:36
Andrew Wilsoncategories of morality, if you're talking about um you know, in this case, prostitution, that's usually going to be in one of the lower categories of morality. And we're going to consider that low on the moral scale for work or
01:31:48
Andrew Wilsonwhatever it is that you're doing. So if that's the case, if you're like, "Well, this person was not engaging in that immoral behavior before and with you. Now they are, >> they would almost they'd almost think like you assisted in the immoral
01:32:01
Nick Leebehavior. Does that make more sense?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Or or at least I just didn't weigh in strongly against enough, I guess, would be the thing. >> Um I mean, it started off as like uh kind of a compliment and then it went to
01:32:13
Nick Leelike why'd you settle for this person? So it feels like he's just wanting to attack her because I don't think any of that characterization is particularly true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I mean it's it's common
01:32:24
Andrew Wilsonplace for especially the Christian right to be pretty heavily against only fans work and prostitution because they consider it categorized the same exact way. >> And so if that's the case like that's
01:32:36
Amouranthpart of their push back in society is they don't want the normalization of it. That's the whole goal, right? >> No, I agree. I think it's terrible for like a normal circumstance. Most girls who do OF they will not succeed and they just ruin any kind of social dynamic
01:32:49
Amouranththey would have had with a potential partner or like a workplace or anything. I think most of the time it's not good. I think the difference with us was we already had each other. We already were in a good financial spot before even starting social media in general as most
01:33:01
Andrew Wilsonprobably should be. But the criticism that you would hear most often there because I've heard this a lot right like there there are uh oaf or sex workers or prostitutes who will come on the show and discuss their you know kind of like
01:33:13
Andrew Wilsonthe inner workings and dynamics >> and what I've noted is there are some who will say like look I'm a success story and that is true like almost nobody's going to succeed at o that's true almost nobody's going to succeed as
01:33:26
Andrew Wilsona podcaster and almost nobody's going to succeed as a great welder either okay like it's really hard to succeed is one of the kind of like cream of the crop. You probably know this from IFBB. There's lots of people around who are really strong and really buff, but they
01:33:39
Andrew Wilsonnever they just never get anywhere. It's like most of them, right? And the cream rises to the top, as they say. But I would just point this out that one of the big criticisms that comes when sex workers say that is that they're just
01:33:49
Andrew Wilsontrying to pull the ladder up. So the idea is like hey um it actually behooves me to say not to engage when you're 20 years you know or not in your case 20 years but like 10 years younger in sex
01:34:02
Amouranthwork because now you become a competition right so you're pulling the ladder up by saying well you couldn't be successful at it either that would be the other criticism back >> sure I've heard that and I can definitely see that perspective but it actually is just very unlikely just
01:34:15
Andrew Wilsonbecause of how saturated the market already is. I'm just giving you the I'm just giving you the criticism, but I actually do agree with you that it's like >> extremely unlikely that that most women will succeed at it. And it's just baffling to me why so many still go into
01:34:29
Courtneyit. >> But I think another point to Mr. Wilson's point is that with you, remind me your name again. >> Nick. >> Nick. Okay. Nick, you've obviously protected Kate physically from physical harm and fended off successfully.
01:34:41
CourtneyHowever, I think one of his points he was trying to make is that since you two started to date, >> it progressed and you uh you both made the decision to start Only Fans.
01:34:53
CourtneyHowever, did you do that with full consciousness that of the ramification like mental, spiritual ramifications that can um affect a
01:35:05
Courtneywoman? Um that's you know just she got you got in at a brilliant time with Twitch and that truly did send you off on a rocket ship but um that
01:35:16
Amouranthillustriousness comes at a cost. There's like things there it comes at a cost. Yeah, I think that I would have felt more strongly uh about that if I was
01:35:27
Amouranththinking of ever actually making real content like penetration or even like just doing scenes with other men, right? Because it was mostly solo and it's toys and it's not even real. It feels more
01:35:40
Amouranthlike smoke and mirrors for profit. Feels more like acting to me than it does actual sex work even though it clearly falls under the illusion of sex. >> Yeah. You're selling your body in the
01:35:50
Courtneyend. That's the difference between actresses that star in big films and >> um porn stars. It's it's that one's selling their body, the other ones are
01:36:00
Courtneyselling a story or a film or a product or a lingerie suite even. But it still begs the question um there
01:36:11
Courtneyby engaging in explicit content creation, you almost were you were taken hostage. Okay? Like it would wait, is I was I wrong? Did I miss the story? I thought you were taken hostage in your
01:36:23
Nick Leeown home, >> Miss K. >> Not from the sex work. >> Yeah, that was like uh I'm assuming they assumed I mean I don't know where they attributed the crypto coming from, but it wasn't actually that. We had done you know like obviously she had the kick
01:36:35
Nick Leedeal and this you know stake is sometimes a component and so all of that is just very crypto oriented. >> Um >> yeah, it was from live streaming like live streaming articles. It wasn't an
01:36:47
Amourantharticle about OF or anything. Oh, okay. So, I I I was attributing the fame there towards that. >> No, I would say that mostly came from Twitch. Not even like OF really. >> It came from How can you say that? Like
01:36:58
Nick Lee>> because I streamed on Twitch for like over 12 hours for several years like every day. >> Yeah. like at one point during her peak um like we have some uh I guess closeness with some people who work with
01:37:10
Nick Leelike XQC and I was like stunned because at one point in like 21 and 22 she had more unique people coming into her stream a day. The difference is that they stayed like a minute you know whereas XQC had them stay an average of
01:37:23
Nick Lee50 minutes right and he was streaming to like hundreds of thousands of people and then she had like 10,000. It's like her stream became a place where people checked in and like it was like just a huge exposure generator like you know
01:37:35
Nick Leeover 100 to 300 million impressions monthly just from that site alone. And so it's definitely the fame but like not to sterilize it too much but like for us if you want to tell the actual story it
01:37:47
Nick Leegoes like Patreon didn't start off as a a you know sexy site and neither did Only Fans >> or Twitch or Twitch. >> Yeah. both musician sites, right? And so for Patreon, it was like, oh, okay, so you can sell some photos just like how
01:37:59
Nick Leecosplay people sell prints. Cool, right? And then when Only Fans rolled around, it was literally, wait, that's a bigger platform with more users, and so we're going to do what we do now on Patreon on
01:38:10
CourtneyOnly Fans. And then like maybe within the next year, it became the porn star site. >> I hear you. But let's let's talk about the the genesis of Emaranth where it
01:38:21
Courtneystarted off as a Twitch. um stream and it what happened progressively? Did it become more scantily clad? Did it get more promiscuous? Did you start cosplaying more sex in more sexy
01:38:33
Amouranthcostumes? And then it became less of an art and more of like, hey, look at my look at my appearance. >> I actually think that a lot of my bikini streams were my most artistic moments
01:38:45
Amouranthcuz I would I would dress up as a pigeon and I would um you know flap as I licked microphones and laugh to the bank. So, I would say that's pretty that's pretty powerful art. >> I'm pretty happy with it.
01:38:57
Brian Atlas>> So, moving off that though, I I want since Andrew is back at the table, uh there was a moment there where there's some disagreement about the categorization or the term used prostitution. Uh Willow, in your notes
01:39:09
Brian Atlashere, you write uh you had a disagreement with uh Andrew calling uh sex workers prostitutes because and you write sex workers have far more rights and access to their money. Prostitutes are more human traffic. Do you want to
01:39:23
Brian Atlaselaborate a bit? >> Yeah. I've actually been waiting for this moment. Um cuz I watch you guys a lot and >> this is this is mo more so Andrew's argument. >> It's your moment. >> I know. I'm ready, Andrew. I'm ready. >> Get me a beer for her moment. I got
01:39:35
Willow[laughter] it. >> This this comes mainly cuz I am also focused on starting a cons nonprofit and a big focus on that is the exploitation of children and human trafficking. My best friend was a prostitute. She passed away when I was 18 years old from heroin
01:39:48
Willowaddiction and prostitution. So, I have firsthand experience um with the the the diverse difference on how being prostituted, pimped out, especially on the streets directly. There's no choice. You don't have access to money. You're
01:40:01
Willowlucky if you eat, get to shower, get to sleep, all of that. You're put on drugs, you know, and then sex workers, it's a choice. You do what an I9 or whatever, and you you pay taxes on your Only Fans
01:40:12
Willowmoney, and like you get to choose like buying yachts and traveling the world and like eating food and having nice stuff. So I think there's a huge difference on like being a sex worker and only fans model and having a choice
01:40:23
Willowand then there's also that middleman of the escort where that person is still most of the time pimped or working for a business but they have far more access to their money. And I just think that's the difference of like your rights as
01:40:34
Willowlike a prostitute being on the streets working out of hotels and motel and then also the being online or being a stripper too. You know it's like most of those people have access to their money and prostitutes don't. That's basically
01:40:47
Andrew Wilsonit. So >> I think Okay, so I listened to what you had to say, but here's my here's my counter. >> Please give it to me. >> You're just redefining what prostitute is because you want to make a
01:40:57
Andrew Wilsondelineation because sex worker sounds Thank you. at least socially less bad, less impactful. >> Yes. >> Yeah. But that's really what you're
01:41:08
Willowdoing. You're just creating you're just redefining terms even though No, you're wrong. So >> defined legally, too. They're defined legally. like they changed those laws in most cities. They're defined legally to protect prostitutes.
01:41:20
Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. But prostitution is a universal term. It's not just a localized one. So whether or not we locally define it a different way than, you know, Venezuela
01:41:29
Andrew Wilsonor whatever, universalization of the term is not really in question. If you have sex with a man in exchange for money, uh you're a prostitute. Or if you
01:41:41
Willowdo it in exchange for goods or in exchange for services, you're you're a prostitute. >> But most Only Fence models do solo work. Like you do mostly solo work. You can only do work with your husband. So how could she be a like you know what I
01:41:54
Andrew Wilsonmean? Like >> let me help you out. If a woman, right, goes up into a hotel room, okay, and she gets naked and a guy jerks off to her naked while she's playing with herself
01:42:05
Andrew Wilsonand he finishes. Did she engage in prostitution or not? If he pays her, >> I would say yes, she did. >> Then your argument's moot here because >> most women these days don't go to hotels. >> Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang
01:42:18
Andrew Wilsonon. >> Your argument would be moot. If you consider that woman to be a prostitute, the only distinction here is a video screen. And so it's like, I don't know how you make that argument in good faith because you just contradicted yourself.
01:42:31
Andrew WilsonIf it's the case that a woman goes up to a hotel room, gets paid money, and plays with herself until a man ejaculates, uh, and all you put between that is a barrier of a screen, how do you not still consider it prostitution? That makes no sense to me.
01:42:44
Andrew Wilson>> The money or giving it to somebody after is like my important distinction on. >> So then of giving a percentage of money to a digital pimp, I mean, what's the distinction? >> I think it's mainly when it comes to >> Well, hang on, hang on, hang on. But you
01:42:55
Andrew Wilsoncan't just agree and then still want to redefine cuz it's like what's the difference between the guy comes in your black pimp comes in and runs security and he has a toothpick in his you know he looks like he's wearing a suit similar to this and he comes in and he
01:43:08
Andrew Wilsonhas a toothpick in his mouth and he's like he's like hey man you know I'm a pimp named Slickback and you got to give me $30 of the hundred you just made because I was outside making sure nobody came in here and bothered you and the prostitute gives her 30 gives him 30
01:43:21
Andrew Wilsonbucks and out he goes. What's the difference between that and her just having 30% automatically deducted from what she made to the digital pimp? What the [ __ ] is the difference? >> Wait, how would you define prostitution? Cuz we haven't no one's defined the
01:43:34
Andrew Wilsonterm. And so like >> I did define it. I would consider prostitution to be sexual favors, right? Or uh selling sexual services in
01:43:43
Andrew Wilsonexchange for profit or goods or money or um services. I mean, so like, hey, if you know, I'll have sex with you if you
01:43:54
Nick Leegive me this part in a play, I consider that prostitution. >> I can understand the argument because you're looking from currently and you're saying like with the technology available, this should be considered as
01:44:04
Nick Leethat. I feel like a lot of the stigma um and antiquity around the term, it's because of what it physically actually was, >> what >> I mean like people actually, you know,
01:44:16
Nick Leelike the woman would become undesirable. She would be kind of uh downcast in society and then she would get like meager amounts of money and then be kind of physically, you know, like used by men. >> Can you explain how that was a worse
01:44:29
Andrew Wilsonsociety? >> Like how is that how's that a worse society that there's a stigma? >> But it's like it seems like that's a better society. >> You put a distinction between uh playing Call of Duty and shooting someone,
01:44:41
Nick Leeright? And you could argue that like there's an amount of that where it's like well, you know, I'm fully triggered someone else avatar. >> Wait a second. I got to take issue with this. So, >> I understand what you're saying. You can
01:44:52
Andrew Wilsonyou can have like um you can have the digital deed of like I play Red Dead Redemption and you know I'll I'll like lasso a chick and run around the railroad tracks just to watch a train hit her cuz I think it's hilarious,
01:45:04
Andrew Wilsonright? >> Um there's a big distinction between that and and real time application. So, I agree with you that nobody's actually getting hurt in Call of Duty. This is all fiction. This is all pixels on a
01:45:15
Andrew Wilsonscreen, right? This type of thing. That's not the case here. Nobody's This is not a digital display. This is a human display with the intent of creating a sexual environment so that
01:45:27
Nick Leemen can basically be sexually gratified in exchange for resources. I don't know how you get around that exactly. >> For me, the the point was actually just that like uh definitely real war violence. Would you call like video game
01:45:39
Andrew Wilsonwar violence? I would say not, right? It's a representation, but like >> but it doesn't meet the criteria because there would have to be something in material reality which was happening for there to be violence. So like if I say cartoon violence, why do I have to
01:45:51
Andrew Wilsoncaveat it with cartoon? Because we're talking about Yeah, cuz we're we're making the caveat because this is something not happening in objective reality. >> Sure. But then I feel like I feel like you lose uh some um granularity with the
01:46:04
Nick Leeterm when you just throw that in the same. I mean, I can understand doing that. I don't see it that way because I think you actually just lose context, right? Like when you go, oh, >> I think it adds context. Like, doesn't
01:46:16
Andrew Wilsonit add the most amount of context? Like be because >> you're being reductive, though. >> I think that it's reductive the other way. I think that I think you're parsing instead and that's where the reduction
01:46:27
Andrew Wilsonis going. I think that it's actually I think that my term much more broadly captures what it is that people are talking about when they're discussing prostitution. And I just I don't
01:46:37
Andrew Wilsonunderstand why why like a a porn star for instance, >> the only distinction is a is, you know, is that you're viewing it through a uh the lens of a monitor
01:46:49
Andrew Wilson>> versus in person. >> You're doing the exact same thing, though. How's that not prostitution? I don't I really don't understand that. I I think it just depends if you define
01:47:01
Amouranthit as like is a male getting off to this or is she [ __ ] somebody is in the same room whether it's like masturbation like said someone has a cuck fantasy whatever they just like to watch okay >> is she with the guy in a physical space
01:47:15
Andrew WilsonI think that's how most people would define prostitution >> so then by that definition would you would have to consider of models who slept with men to be prostitutes
01:47:26
Andrew Wilson>> I could see that yeahs So have to say that all corn stars were prostitutes, right? But do you see though how now we're only parsing out you with your
01:47:38
Andrew Wilsonparticular type of content that's not prostitution. Only all of this other type of content is. Doesn't that sound really convenient to parse it out that way? Like because it excludes me. I feel like I feel like it's still important
01:47:51
Amouranththough for like the individual um like in the case she mentioned where it's like some prostitutes they don't have a choice who they sleep with >> right >> well I consider that slavery not not so
01:48:02
Andrew Wilson>> I don't even consider that to be prostitution so if it's the case that you're being forced to sleep with men against your will that's not prostitution there's no intent there
01:48:12
Andrew Wilsonright that's sex slavery that's a whole different ballgame right people human labels. Yeah. >> Yeah. They're human traffked. You don't need to call those people prostitutes cuz they're not. And I don't think we
01:48:24
Andrew Wilsonwould. I don't think most people would be like, "You were sold into sex slavery when you were 10. You were a prostitute." That doesn't even sound right. Rolling off the tongue, right? So, I think that we would put that in a different category of a sex slave. Like
01:48:36
Andrew Wilsona legitimate one. I'm not talking about the laring sex slave [ __ ] but like that would be slavery. That's I don't I don't think that fits the criteria. Prostitutes have agency. It is true that they do conventionally go to pimps and
01:48:47
Willowhave less access to their money. They're paying them for protection, but there's many of them who do have access to their money. >> Who's paying their pimps for protection? Because most people are either pimped out by their abusive boyfriends, they are taken off the street. I mean, even
01:49:00
Willowhere in California alone, like having a gorilla, but there's like three [clears throat] different distin pimps, you know, and gorilla pimps especially are the most >> I'll give you examples. I've had >> they abduct people you and most prostitutes don't get
01:49:13
Willow>> I'll give you some examples. away $30 out of a hundred. Like you give the whole hundred and you're lucky to get a McDonald's cheeseburger and a change of >> then how could you make the how could then how could you make the distinction
01:49:23
Andrew Wilsonthat this relationship isn't a pimp a pimp prostitute relationship if he hang on hang on if if he's getting a massive portion of that money because they're married. In fact, because they're
01:49:35
Andrew Wilsonmarried and share assets, he's entitled to 100% of the money. >> So is that does that mean that he's her pimp? Well, hang on. Hang on. Let me ask you. Does that mean he's her pimp?
01:49:46
Andrew WilsonBecause in this case, there's sex work going on with his wife and he's entitled to 100% of the In other words, he could legally right now drain all of her
01:49:56
Andrew Wilsonaccounts right this second or her him, right? And just leave tomorrow and spend all of it and it's not illegal. So, it's like how how would that not make that the same relationship you're talking
01:50:08
Willowabout? again think it's just like subjective and by choice on like who suggested it first like how mutual that decision is you know because you can be in relationships where you're manipulated you're gaslighted into it you're convinced like hey this is good >> I feel like I'm being gas lit right now
01:50:22
Andrew Wilsonhonestly >> you're a hot woman and like you're capable of it >> how's this not gaslighting I mean isn't isn't what's going on right now you're trying to get me to accept a definition of prostitution that would be one a
01:50:34
Andrew Wilsonhistorical and b wouldn't actually encapsulate what it is that we're trying to talk about what we're really discussing, which is women who are engaging in selling sex or sexual
01:50:45
Andrew Wilsongratification to men and women uh in exchange for goods, services, money. Like, that's what we're talking about when we're talking about a prostitute. And that matches with a much more
01:50:56
Andrew Wilsonhistorically accurate term. And by the way, there have always been elite prostitutes who did have access to their money. Absolutely. Uh >> those are escorts. Well, I'm talking in the historic term, right? There's always been
01:51:09
Willow>> historic term. >> Yeah, there is historic term. That's the Isn't it called the oldest profession? >> No, I agree with you. What I'm saying about escorts and prostitutes, there's levels to this. There's like distinctive levels to like a prostitute. Sex
01:51:21
Willowslaveries underneath prostitute. Then there's escorts more access. They dress higher. >> I don't mean to be nitpicky here, but I have I have to be a little bit nitpicky. I don't think that you're saying when you when I hear you say this, it doesn't
01:51:33
Andrew Wilsonsound like there's levels of prostitution. There's granular difference between the types of prostitution you're engaged in. That's the difference. It's all prostitution. This is sex. >> Hang on. Hang on. This is the box of
01:51:46
Willowprostitution. Better description. I think it's under sex work. >> No, sex work falls under the box of prostitution. >> Drum and bass and there's rhythm and there's dubstep. It's like sex work and there's the subg genres. Please go ahead. I'd love it.
01:51:58
Brian Atlas>> Yeah. So, I I just Googled the definition. This is from Oxford Dictionary and just also off of Google. Prostitute. A person in particular a woman who engages in sexual activity for payment.
01:52:12
Willow>> Mhm. >> Do you disagree with the definition? >> Well, like if I record a video of myself right now masturbating online and then sold it to somebody, that wouldn't me be me. >> Yes, it would. You'd be a prostitute >> under this definition. >> Engagement is where people get l What do you mean by engagement? Like physically
01:52:26
Andrew Wilsonor like >> Yeah. How is me guess what I mean? like a >> well engage engagement would mean uh that you're either uh physically interacting with it, right? Or you're in some way socially interacting with it.
01:52:38
Andrew WilsonUh but I would say it's much more physical than anything, but that doesn't mean touching. >> So like physical activity, um like for instance, again, if if it fits the criteria that if a guy is
01:52:50
Andrew Wilsonjerking off in a room while you're masturbating, you're not technically being there's no touching going on. But I would definitely consider that and so did you to be prostitution. >> There's a risk though that he could touch her. You know like there's a chance because he is there performing
01:53:04
Andrew Wilsonthat. >> I'm not sure that that's again I'm not sure how that would interact with the definition to make it not >> because the definition was made before the internet was so like they didn't
01:53:15
Andrew Wilsonthey never perceived this concept of a man can jack off to a woman. They had play they had playboys they had look they had playboys before the internet and they had pictures of of nudy women before the internet
01:53:27
Andrew Wilson>> requesting a custom you know >> I think that if you were engaged in playboy all right if you were completely nude in a playboy or a hustler was even worse right let's say hustler then you can't even use the model aspect and you
01:53:40
Andrew Wilsonhave things shoved into yourself in a hustler magazine which they often did yeah I think that's prostitution I think that that definitely like you're getting money in exchange for you uh participating in the sexual
01:53:54
Andrew Wilsongratification of other people with intent. So like I think the difference between there could just be a really sexually attractive woman. I agree that that crazy dudes online are just going to fap to, right? Or not even crazy
01:54:05
Andrew Wilsonguys, maybe just really attracted. They're fapping to her, whatever, right? But she's not she has no intent for that. That's not her intent. Her intent is not to make them do that. And that's
01:54:16
Andrew Wilsonthe distinction. And it's like it's very clear that the intent for the sex worker, I would say prostitute is to do that. And so I think that's a distinction. I don't I don't think it's that granular really. >> So it depends on the intent of the
01:54:30
Shonawoman. >> Yeah. It would depend on the intent of both >> both. But so the man uh purchasing and the woman um >> Yeah. The woman's intent is to do that. Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> Wait, I have a question. If there's like
01:54:41
Shonaan influencer who like posts herself like clothes, let's say, and she gets money for being an influencer and there's a guy on the other end of the or like who watches her or like consumes her content who like gets off to her
01:54:53
Andrew Wilsonreceives money even though she gets he gets sexually gratified is she >> is the intent from her specifically to sexually gratify him in exchange for the money in her body. >> Intent. Okay. >> Yeah. It's it's always going to be like everything. That's what that's what the difference between killing and murder
01:55:06
Andrew Wilsonis. >> He could have killed a man, >> rightfully so, by the way. Um, but that that's not murder. Even if he had killed him, that wouldn't be murder because of the intent difference. He wasn't intending on hurting somebody and
01:55:19
Andrew Wilsonkilling them because in some way that that meant something to him. He was intending rather to defend other people couldn't defend themselves. And so now it falls under self-defense, right? Or it falls under justifiable killing.
01:55:32
Shona>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't fully disagree with your like use of the term prostitution, but I think the reason why like I would be more partial to using the term sex work is purely because throughout history and society, we've used the term prostitute to
01:55:43
Shonadescribe a woman who like or someone who like performs a sexual activity physically with or like gives sex, physical sex. And I think that's not as bad or that is worse than Only Fans model does.
01:55:55
Andrew Wilson>> We we didn't just use it for penetrative sex. We used it for uh dancers. We used it for all sorts of people who engaged in sexual. We would call them prostitute dancing. Prostitutes >> were Yeah. strippers. Strippers are definitely prostitutes.
01:56:07
Andrew Wilson>> People would use the word stripper more for a stripper and prostitute. >> Well, hang on. In modernity, but you were asking about a historical standard. >> Okay. Well, including modernity. >> Yeah. So, I mean a historical standard, prostitute was actually much tighter
01:56:18
Andrew Wilsonthan those like anything that fell under a sexual focus more modernity and how it's the terms used in >> I even in modernity. I think my term is more useful. And here's why. So, I guess here's the distinction. I think that she
01:56:30
Willowwants the term distinguished uh because she wants to eliminate stigma >> but I also think yeah it's to help break barriers because in order to help you have to have distinguishing factors and
01:56:41
Willowlike especially in society and law like they have changed over the years on talking more on the human trafficking sides or sex slavery to help create space. I think it's about stigma and I think that what it is is it's an attempt
01:56:52
Andrew Wilsonto reduce stigma around activities which I think and most people I think even agree with me should be stigmatized >> and so we don't want to change the definition to make it less impactful
01:57:05
Willowbecause it makes you feel better. No, I do think Only Fans like and like I'm not against Only Fans, but I do believe stigma should stay because again, but big focus of what I do is about protecting and not exploiting children. And I think especially with social media
01:57:19
Willowtoday, like >> especially young girls, like they're being horrifically like brainwashed into being convinced that this is the only way that they're going to survive or that using their bodies online and
01:57:29
Willowbecoming Tik Tok famous is like the only answer for women. And then porn is like so easily accessible for men now that it's destroyed their capacity to be emotionally available to want connections. >> Look, I totally that I totally
01:57:42
Willowunderstand over like say for example for you like if you went out of your way and you knew that every single man you were like selling content to was like a married man and like you actively knew those things. I would personally have problems with that because most married men have porn addictions. It's destroying their families. They have
01:57:56
Willowchildren. >> Most don't mostly if an if a married man sorry I said that right. If a married man is like subscribed to a bunch of Only Fans model, he >> it's going to hurt his marriage. Yeah. >> And I think doing things with intent
01:58:08
Willowlike who you're selling stuff to, if you have the knowledge like to know that like you're even flying out, you know, to do stuff or make content with someone who's in a relationship and keeping secrets. I think having like a a mutual
01:58:20
Willowbalance and agreement and like understanding how like even though you don't intend to like harm a 16-year-old boy with your your content, it could pop up on his Instagram. it could be very harmful to young children and to relationships. And so when you're
01:58:33
Willowoperating in these worlds, having doing those things with as much intent as possible and like providing a safe service is like the most important thing, you know, like even escorts like a lot of the times like they are treated
01:58:44
Brian Atlasfar better than the low and bottom bottom barrel versions of prostitutes. Like they are >> they're still prostitutes. >> They are sex workers. >> But don't you think sex workers? >> But hold on. Let me let Okay, let let me
01:58:57
Brian Atlasread the definition. and disagree about it, but that's my just my personal opinion. >> Finish up quickly here. A person who engages in sexual activity for payment. That's the dictionary definition of prostitute. Do you disagree with that definition?
01:59:10
Willow>> No, I don't. >> So, an escort engages in sexual activity for payment. Yes or no? >> Yes. But I think >> So, they're prostitutes. >> I like that definition. >> Sex worker. I I just think I use the
01:59:22
Brian Atlasterms differently. I see what you're saying, but for me, it's just it's very important to use the terms. What is the actual? So I I understand that there's le you know some women can be have pimps
01:59:33
Brian Atlasand some there's varying degrees of >> escorts do have pins but they're like businesses >> interrupting. Godamn. >> Jeez. I'll just be quiet. >> No, you can discuss, but allow me to at
01:59:46
Brian Atlasleast finish my thought before you want to blurt out more of your whatever. So I already lost my train of thought. Um >> you were saying prostitutes. Uh there's different distinction between prostitute
01:59:57
Brian Atlasand >> escort. Um this is why we don't want people interrupting. Um >> there can be pimps, there can be this and then >> so yeah, there's there's varying levels of uh I guess willfulness when it comes