1v1 DEBATE: Andrew Wilson vs. Marxist Anti-Trump Feminist | Whatever Debates #11
Date: 2025-03-16
Duration: 7h 34m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Miss Kenzie(guest)
Key Moments
00:02:09
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Miss Kenzie on feminism
00:35:40
Key MomentAndrew's slavery hypothetical: if all men decided to enslave women, women could not resist
02:07:00
ControversyAndrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape.
03:17:00
Key MomentAndrew cites USSR: fully legal abortion led to 3 abortions per 1 live birth
04:58:20
Key MomentAndrew presses Kenzie on body count. She repeatedly refuses. 'If it doesn't matter why won't you tell?'
06:31:40
Key MomentKenzie's TikTok: Whatever deliberately books unprepared women against prepared conservatives to humiliate them
Topics Discussed
00:07:00
Feminism vs Marxism
Andrew: first-wave feminism fed women into capitalism, contradicting Marxism. Kenzie distinguishes liberal from Marxist feminism.
00:35:00
Force Doctrine
Andrew: men's biological physical superiority = monopoly on force. Slavery hypothetical.
02:07:00
Sexual Consent
Andrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape under FRIES model. Both agree holding down = rape.
03:05:00
Abortion
Kenzie: no restrictions all 9 months. Andrew cites USSR 3:1 abortion ratio. Semantic bait-and-switch debate.
04:05:00
Purity Culture and Virginity
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Kenzie refuses to disclose body count.
06:26:40
Whatever Podcast Misogyny TikTok
Brian plays Kenzie's TikTok calling Whatever a misogynistic abuse space. Brian refutes: 15% OF guests, women reach out.
07:17:30
Closing Statements
Andrew: proprietary definitions. Kenzie: precise terminology, restorative justice.
Transcript
Page 5 of 9
03:47:53
Andrew Wilsonstrong enough case that if no other blood was present uh to give from donors that a parent had a duty and obligation to give their blood to a child hang on to a child and that would comport with
03:48:04
Andrew Wilsonreason just fine whereas it could it may not comport to reason to say that this could have dire effects on your health giving them a kidney that might that's a whole different
03:48:16
Miss Kenziesituation I mean I I don't think it is because you you would even say like um pregnancy can come with severe Health complications that can reduce your life
03:48:26
Miss Kenzieexpectancy yeah sure sir so then I don't have to do that now no you still have to do that yeah then then that's is inconsistent what's the inconsistency you just said I don't have to give the kidney because that comes with health complications that red my it's not
03:48:39
Andrew Wilsonbecause it comes with health complications uh it's because this particular complication demonstrated to always shorten Life Pregnancy is not in fact pregnancy has been demonstrated to elongate life if there's one instance
03:48:50
Miss Kenziewhere someone gives a kidney and it doesn't demonstrate a shorter life expectancy then it's okay how could you demonstrate that I don't know how are you demonstrating that it always does yeah the only way that we're demonstrating that aren't these just
03:49:03
Andrew Wilsontypical outcomes well we can just compare people who give kidneys to people who don't give kidneys and then you can just correlate the lifespan simple but that doesn't mean always yeah it's almost always the case but it
03:49:15
Andrew Wilsondoesn't mean always there could be some exception just like in pregnancy so the same thing singing here's the thing though if there's a single exception to something that doesn't mean we wouldn't legislate based on the general rule but then your your stand because have an
03:49:27
Miss Kenzieexception biologically to anything because your standard is inconsistent the standard's still consistent I think if you and I are going to establish what a parental obligation is or responsibility it's just going to be
03:49:39
Andrew Wilsonarbitrary yeah but okay to to what severe degree does a parent need to exper you make the case of arbitr then you can say everything is arbitrary the age of consent is arbitrary right there are a
03:49:52
Andrew Wilsonlot of things that are is the age of consent arbitrary what do you mean is the age of consent I don't want to Pivot I I can you answer my question I'm checking you for your consistency and arbitr you for being your consistency
03:50:03
Andrew Wilsonand I'm happy to answer but if when you say when you say a thing is AR because we're talking about what's arbitrary so if you say thing is arbitrary almost everything is arbitrary we already agreed that essentially establishing
03:50:15
Miss Kenziewhen Consciousness occurred is arbitrary yeah but I'm talking now I'm saying is a is the age of consent arbitrary in terms of what in terms of there's no if the age of consent is 16 no that's not arbitrary it's obviously how did you
03:50:28
Andrew Wilsoncome up with it being 16 um I mean that that would depend on the reasoning so it's arbitrary in in some cases sure but if
03:50:39
Andrew Wilsonit is the case and I grant to you that hey no it's not arbitrary because you're 16 then no it's not arbitrary that you don't have to give kidney but you do have to give blood that's not arbitrary
03:50:48
Miss Kenzienow it is how are you like selecting at what degree the parent has to experience in order for that how are you selecting the age of consent um I think we can obviously have
03:50:59
Andrew Wilsonmarkers when it comes to the age of con so we can have delineations between harm factors where we can comport them to reason when it comes to giving blood or kidneys simple do you think parents have
03:51:11
Andrew Wilsonan obligation to like experience torture in order to keep their children alive uh I think that you can make the case that a father or mother should have some Duty
03:51:21
Andrew Wilsontowards trying to experience or not trying to experience it but that they may need to suffer in order to keep their kid alive yeah I don't disagree but I'm asking is that like a legal
03:51:34
Miss Kenzieexpectation that we will torture you to keep your child alive that's a moral expectation then so obviously but you do want to um
03:51:45
Miss Kenziehave laws that would require parents to be tortured to keep their children alive what's the torture I mean Force pregnancy is torture how is that
03:51:55
Miss Kenzietorture um well I mean it's classified as as torture by the UN I would say it would just meet a specific threshold of um suffering okay well then I would say
03:52:08
Andrew Wilsonthat it's torturing the baby so like because you're going to kill it I would say that that's a form of torture or I could even say it's mental torture on the mother to terminate the pregnancy could have
03:52:19
Miss Kenzielong-term side effects on her mental health that only depends on how wanted the pregnancy is um and again if you don't like have the capacity to experience I don't know how you can experience torture yeah but not only that you know what's really weird about
03:52:31
Andrew Wilsonthis argument specifically is like do you have an obligation to be tortured on behalf of your children right it's like well let's look at this let's examine it on the on the one side I I do want to
03:52:43
Andrew Wilsonsay yes I think you do and I think you even agree that to some degree we do but for some reason you're like unless it's inside my stomach which is really weird what do you mean well you said you just got done saying that you think to some
03:52:55
Andrew Wilsondegree parents need to be able to experience suffering for their children that they will experience suffering do I think they should be forced to no
03:53:05
Andrew Wilsonnever no I'm I can't think of an an instance like oh I don't know um your kid for instance uh has autism or something like this right you still need to take care of that kid give him
03:53:18
Miss Kenziespecial treatment things like that that definitely causes suffering um not to the same degree that I would say violations towards your bodily autonomy would be that is violations toward your body autonomy
03:53:30
Miss Kenzieforce one second and I would I I disagree with that I wouldn't Force um if if a parent uh can't meet the needs of the child then um I think that would
03:53:42
Miss Kenziebe a societal responsibility so then it just you just shift the burden yeah I don't want to force parents to be parents I want that to be done willingly because that's the best outcome for the child so if nobody gave blood let's say
03:53:54
Miss Kenziehypothetically just nobody gave blood right do you think that the parent has the obligation to give their kid blood if they're in I think they should but I don't think that uh it should be legally enforced so then the kid just dies if
03:54:05
Miss Kenziethe parent doesn't want to yeah yeah I don't know that sounds like a way shittier Society to me I I don't know do you think like um if the child is starving that like the parent has an obligation to cut off parts of their
03:54:17
Andrew Wilsonskin to feed their child I think that if you were crash landed somewhere like on a desert island or something like that there's a moral obligation to do so yeah we're talking legal yeah I could I can't
03:54:29
Andrew Wilsonmake a legal prescription there for something that very very clearly would be like outside of society so you think that parents should be they should they
03:54:40
Andrew Wilsonshould what cut off parts of their skin to feed their child if they absolutely had no other way to feed that child I think they have a moral obligation to do
03:54:48
Miss Kenzieso okay moral you agree right um I again I think it has to would you cut off pieces of your skin to feed your child in a plane wreck yes yeah okay then that's the end of that I mean
03:55:01
Miss Kenziethat's what I would do yeah because you thinkal but that's my will because you think it's moral it's like the most moral thing you could do right um sure but again I I don't think
03:55:11
Miss Kenziethat my like moral desires um would necessarily uh be imposed on other people like U I've had I've had an abortion as well
03:55:24
Andrew Wilsonyou would say that a woman who wouldn't do that for their kid was a bad person I would say someone who does that is a good person so somebody who didn't do that was probably not a good person I I don't think if you're not a good
03:55:36
Miss Kenzieperson it doesn't mean you're a bad person yeah that's not what I asked though are they a bad person no no no okay do you think like if you are walking down a path and you see someone
03:55:48
Andrew Wilsondrowning you have an obligation to save them yeah do you think that you should be legally criminalized I think in some cases you are legally criminalized if if so what if you can't swim well there's
03:56:01
Andrew WilsonStates for instance where there's a law where if there's a felony in progress or a misdemeanor in progress and you don't report you go to jail sure I can you know the same I think that's
03:56:10
Miss Kenzievery it's it's not though cuz obviously it comes down to like what um is reasonable expectation is it a reasonable expectation that you make a phone call sure reasonable expectation
03:56:23
Andrew Wilsonfre water when you can't when you can't s now you're loading it though now you're loading it fine warm bath water let me ask you this let's reverse it okay now the kid is drowning in a
03:56:34
Andrew Wilsonpuddle should should you face some sort of criminal charges if you don't go over and just roll them out of the puddle yeah again I think that then what are you even talking about what do you mean
03:56:45
Andrew Wilsonso yes I think that there you can have moral obligations with thresholds sure I don't disagree yeah but that was my point with kidneys and blood you can have moral obligations with thresholds yes I think you should be able to force
03:56:56
Andrew Wilsonpeople to give blood so what the Del then what's the delineation I don't you're engaging in a fallacy right now so what's the fallacy yeah so the I I don't remember what this one's called but the specific fallacy that you're
03:57:08
Andrew Wilsonengaging in is because you say this thing you can't you don't have a delineating point between thing a and thing B that means there is not one there is you don't need to be able to point out what it is you can clearly see that a kidney is different than blood we
03:57:21
Andrew Wilsonboth know this the procedure for kidney is different than blood I think it's totally acceptable even if you can't identify whatever the exact threshold is maybe doctors can't I don't know um that I can't say that there's not then
03:57:33
Miss Kenziewouldn't we just be then we wouldn't the threshold just be arbitrary well wouldn't that be the case with the puddle in the ocean I I agree yeah but then why would you sa the one in the puddle but not the ocean because of G of of threshold well
03:57:45
Miss Kenziethen what's the problem here we're both saying the same thing yeah so do you think that um giving kidney is less invasive than pregnancy yes G oh wait giving the
03:57:57
Miss Kenziekidney is less invasive no I think it's more invasive really yeah than pregnancy yeah you stuck stuck with that your whole life pregnancy you have for a few months nine months well I mean obviously depending on the health outcomes of your pregnancy you can have health issues for
03:58:09
Andrew Wilsonthe rest of your life yes true and I would say the risk is greater no it's not greater for most women than giving the kidney would be no it's not I I disagree based on what based on health
03:58:20
Andrew Wilsonoutcomes okay well how many okay based you think that people who give a kidney right are more or less likely to die than the average woman who has a pregnancy really I mean we're not even talking about death we can talk about
03:58:32
Andrew Wilsonhealth outcomes yeah Health outcomes are way worse people have one kidney can't drink ever again you have to be super careful you have to take enzymes you have to take uh various things that make sure that the kidney is compatible with your body and you have to take that
03:58:44
Andrew Wilsonstuff for years like no the health outcomes for people who give a kidney way worse than the average woman who's pregnant for sure like I wouldn't even put them in the same universe I I think the complexities of pregnancy it's not a
03:58:57
Miss Kenziefair assessment to say cuz obviously every pregnancy is going to be going to be different and then obviously like the health of the mother is going to be different as well which can add core
03:59:07
Miss Kenziemorbidities yeah that's same thing with kidneys same thing but except that kidneys again yeah you're going to have to take I I just think the line would be drawn in terms of Parental obligation is
03:59:20
Andrew Wilsonyou you don't have to use your body as life support yeah I get it uh I'm willing I'm actually willing to move to the next topic for the sake of time only because of this okay um I was willing to engage
03:59:32
Andrew Wilsonin this right but your position basically was just a bait position it's not a bait position it is a bait position okay fine well you believe it's murder to kill a person 7 months uh yes
03:59:43
Andrew Wilsonyou just don't care about enfor ing that well I just don't see the the necessity in it of enforcing it no the necessity of a lethal termination yeah I know but if a doctor did lethally terminate a
03:59:55
Miss Kenziefetus at 7 months and there is no law governing it he didn't do anything wrong right I think he did something wrong but there's I I still would be opposed law cause more harm so you're just opposed
04:00:06
Miss Kenzieto murdering babies like that's the you're opposed to legislating against murdering babies um
04:00:14
Miss KenzieI mean not within I I'm opposed to legislation that would cause uh a lot more death of of pregnant people yeah
04:00:25
Miss Kenzieright so but you're you're opposed legislation of murdering babies my my position would be um that it's essentially a harm reduction got it so I just want to make sure though you don't
04:00:37
Andrew Wilsonwant any legislation in regards to doctors who kill babies correct okay correct
04:00:44
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Brian Atlasvideo if you want and like I said uh once the pizza comes we'll we'll drop the we'll do a TTS portion and then if there's anything else to get to for the debate we'll do that um Andrew what did
04:03:08
Brian Atlasyou want to get into for what are the other topics well there was the gender wage Gap but it sounded like there's specifically other things that yeah what are the other ones sure there's uh
04:03:19
Brian Atlasgender wage Gap and anti- Purity culture yeah we'll probably actually agree on the anti- Purity culture really yeah your anti- Purity culture well
04:03:31
Miss Kenziedepends on how it's defined how would you define it um prescribing virginity and uh less
04:03:40
Miss Kenziesexual essentially sexual encounters before marriage as uh pure and virtuous oh well then no we would disagree how do you define it uh so for me Purity
04:03:51
Andrew Wilsonculture would be like absurd things like um you have to wear a burka right um like yeah I mean definitely prescriptions towards Purity I mean but that's really circular yeah well it's a
04:04:02
Andrew Wilsoncircular position unless unless you have specificity right so we'll start with this idea of why do you think prescribing virginity is bad well I don't think virginity is is
04:04:16
Miss Kenziereal what do you mean um I I just don't think it's it's something that you can quantify yeah no dicks in your vagina
04:04:26
Andrew Wilsonit's Quantified as virgin if I um if I just have sex with women I'm a virgin uh no why well so there's no
04:04:36
Andrew Wilsondicks yeah yeah so um you would still be a virgin to a man right at least from that perspective from my perspective I would you define virginity as no dicks
04:04:47
Andrew Wilsonyeah yeah I was being factious obviously said no dick in your vagg not a virgin yeah if you have sex with somebody you're not a virgin what is sex it would be the art of intercourse I don't think women can
04:05:00
Andrew Wilsonreally have sex with each other it's just mutual masturbation that's it so are we just defining sex as penetration yeah yeah so I or [ __ ] I think [ __ ] Doo
04:05:12
Miss Kenziereally [ __ ] count mhm as a form of like sodomite sex so if I give a [ __ ] am I virgin well your mouth's not a virgin
04:05:23
Andrew WilsonI'm just I mean this seems really inconsistent I'm just yeah so when we're talking about virginity I don't think um that there's anything that's really confusing so women can masturbate each
04:05:34
Andrew Wilsonother men can masturbate with women right but we're talking about virginity itself and by the way all of those things are bad right all of them are bad so if you gave with that yeah okay well
04:05:45
Andrew Wilsonso I'm just talking about purity culture would say all those things are bad uh right so when you but when you're talking about virginity it's like yeah it's pretty simple like no dick no D in
04:05:54
Miss Kenziethe v and you maintain The Virginity um is this like a a medical or like a a body standard or so this is just an experience thing yeah how far
04:06:07
Miss Kenziedoes it have to go in I mean if the if it goes in at all so just the tip yeah you're not a virgin anymore so the reason that I think this
04:06:16
Miss Kenzieis it gets touched it gets touched it's over so my vulva touches no I'm talking it's penetrative sex yes it's penetrative sex so the reason that I
04:06:26
Miss Kenziethink that this concept is just um not like a functional definition is because sexual experience is very complex and I think it's absolutely silly to say that
04:06:38
Miss Kenzieme having just sex with women and being a lesbian somehow puts me in a condition that's any less that's any less than if I were to have sex with a man why is that
04:06:49
Miss Kenziesilly because like what what is the delineation here ifting if she if they like is there a penis is there a penis involved I mean if there's a dildo does
04:06:59
Miss Kenziethat count like if then like I use a dildo on myself does I count she holding it that would be called what masturbation right so I'm wondering like what what are we measuring here we're
04:07:11
Andrew Wilsonmeasuring your Purity when it comes to how many dicks you've had in your vagina like human dicks yes why because
04:07:19
Miss Kenziethat's the metric for virginity yeah so I I just think it's um obviously again I I don't think it's a good working definition because it reduces sexual
04:07:30
Miss Kenzieexperience down to not only a heteronormative narrative um but also that sexual
04:07:38
Miss Kenzieexperience can be done in a multitude of ways to to where I would say that what meaningful difference is it that you're Crossing this threshold that there's a
04:07:50
Miss Kenziemale penis inside your vagina what does that do it removes your virginity what that's circular like you're not virginity is just having a penis inside you removing your virginity like what
04:08:02
Andrew Wilsonokay I'm sorry what are why let me make sure I get this right can you have sex without a person uh no well you can you can M you
04:08:12
Andrew Wilsoncan wait a second wait a second you can't have sex without another person there counting masturbation what counts as sex with another person then kissing
04:08:23
Miss Kenzieum I would say I mean again when we talk about intercourse I think it's really hard to have like these kissing sex no what's not sex about it I would say oral um oral vaginal what's not sex about
04:08:35
Miss Kenziethat stuff this seems like you have the inconsistent you have the inconsistent position why isn't kissing sex um why isn't kissing intercourse because I would say intercourse well what's the difference
04:08:49
Andrew Wilsonbetween sex and intercourse well intercourse I think something enters right okay yeah so like if if you're you can have lesbian sex nothing enters right well you can have something enter too is lesbian sex sex yeah okay so then
04:09:02
Miss Kenziethere's a difference between sex and intercourse sure okay so then I I use those interchange I'm fine with that delineation so then why isn't kissing sex um I I would say the use of uh
04:09:14
Miss Kenzieessentially the inclusion of genitals would be would be sex what why um because like you can like kiss your mom and I wouldn't say that that's
04:09:26
Miss Kenzielike so if you lick a guy's balls did you have sex with them just once I think that's definitely a sexual experience did you have sex with them though um yes I did oh okay so licking balls is
04:09:38
Miss Kenzielicking balls is is doing the de sex yep okay gotcha what about licking his feet oh no gross how come that's not sex um I think that can be a sexual act for sure
04:09:49
Miss Kenziejust like licking the balls yeah so so it sounds like you have an arbitrary metric and mine's way more specific I think uh when you and I are talking about sexual experience I think you're proving my point it that sexual
04:10:00
Andrew Wilsonexperience can be very Vari uh variety and Nuance so the idea though of intercourse thing enters right we're talking about virginity right so I think
04:10:12
Andrew WilsonI think that there's men too inside of the kind of religious vocal who would say that if you gave a [ __ ] you're not a virgin I'm fine with that too yeah and I think that um and and that's kind of one of the issues that I have with it
04:10:24
Miss Kenzieis to you know I think one of the most common questions that uh teenagers ask like I've done X am I still a virgin and it's because you have this notion that when you do a specific sex act somehow
04:10:36
Miss Kenzieyou're a different person than the person you were prior to the sex act yeah something definitely changed what you had sex well what I'm I'm talking
04:10:46
Miss Kenzieabout like character or who you are as a person because um and this is where I think L that's not why but but that's not why people select based on virginity I I think this is a
04:10:58
Miss Kenzieprescription of Purity culture is that somehow you are tainted you are less than you are impure um that your character that your value as a person has lessened because you've had this
04:11:10
Miss Kenzieexperience I think it's just based around preference so I just think that idea is very simple I'm saying that's what Purity culture implies that if you've had sex you're less pure yeah I think that based this is
04:11:22
Andrew Wilsonbased around the preference that men have of women having less sexual partners I think it's not an innate preference it's a societal one no it's a Nate and I'll demonstrate why it's an
04:11:33
Andrew WilsonNate do you want me I can demonstrate it so do you agree with me that uh paternity tests were not always a thing in fact they're very recent yes so so how to miniature paternity before there
04:11:45
Miss Kenziewas paternity tests well someone not being polyamorous so only having sex with them well you can not be a virgin and still be monogamous sure but one way that you
04:11:57
Miss Kenziecan assure that your Offspring is going to be yours is to only be the only person that woman's ever slept with how do you determine that well they used to have himman Checkers things like this that's not a effective determinant of
04:12:08
Andrew Wilsonvirginity you can lose you can lose your hman writing your back that's true but it is a pretty effective metric I considering techn yes considering
04:12:19
Miss Kenzietechnology it is it's not tests are very ineffective when there's no other test what other test is there that's my point there is no test yeah right so then yeah
04:12:30
Andrew Wilsonso and not a good L calm down if it is the case if it is the case though that that's what's there right and the only way that you can determine whether or not a child is yours if the woman is
04:12:41
Andrew Wilsonsleeping with you of course it would follow that you would be revolted by women who slept with a lot of men but you can't determine that if the highman is there or not why would that listen first of all yes that's a good
04:12:54
Miss Kenzieindication they're not a virgent the heyman's not there um no like I said you can you can uh lose your you know your Hyman can break like horseback riding sure but it's not common falling on a fence it is
04:13:07
Andrew Wilsoncommon no it's much more common that the highman breaks how how do most hman get broke I have no idea with a dick how do you measure that are you we can look at do you want me to look it up right now sure yeah I would love
04:13:25
Andrew Wilsonsomething just put most common way Heyman
04:13:38
Andrew Wilsonbraks what'd you get uh the most common ways sexual intercourse followed by
04:13:46
Miss Kenzietampons okay which makes sense to me how tell me the methodology um people research has been done shows there's no scientific way to tell from the inspection of your Heyman whether you
04:13:57
Andrew Wilsondid or did not have intercourse that was not what was said what was said is that the most common way Ayman gets broken is with a pen again it says that based on a lot of
04:14:09
Miss Kenzieresearch shows there's no scientific way to tell from the inspection of your hman whether you did or did not have intercourse and that is your position right no okay what's the most common way
04:14:20
Andrew Wilsonfor himman to break again are you saying that the Hyman is a scientific way to tell if you've had sex or not only if there's no other scientific way available it would be the only
04:14:31
Andrew Wilsonscientific way it's not a scientific ma like um method and and there is no other way that's that's yes it is a scientific method whether you think it's good or
04:14:42
Andrew Wilsonnot it's not a scientific method yes it would be a scientific method okay so tell me this how would you make a determination right if the only thing available to you was to check a Heyman
04:14:54
Andrew Wilsonthat was the only thing that was available to you again it's not a good criteria a man right that's the only way to check for Chastity or virginity and women were told and trained not to break
04:15:05
Miss Kenzietheir Heyman to say how you trained Not To Break by doing activities that would break them that is just absolutely ridiculous but happened I I I don't care if it happened it's not it's not an
04:15:18
Andrew Wilsoneffective way to ter to determine if someone is I think that if there's no other way around it's the most effective way it doesn't mean it's effective though it's just the most effective which is mean it's effective though just
04:15:30
Andrew Wilsonthe most effective though we're say we agree yeah so great so then it's the most effective way so if it's not if it's the most effective way but when there's no other way and um the reason
04:15:42
Miss Kenziethat it's not effective is because there is no medical condition of virginity nobody's saying it's a medical condition or physical condition even well I would
04:15:54
Andrew Wilsonargue that there's no physical assessment that you can do to determine if someone is I think I think virginity is conceptual sure yeah but I think that you can still have signs for a concept
04:16:06
Miss Kenzielike I think again it it's not effective like obviously the highman can be absent and someone be a virgin and can be and I'm not disputing that okay great yeah but that was never in dispute what
04:16:18
Andrew Wilsonwhat's in dispute is how you could tell about hang on hang on about why it is that a man would want to select for women who have low body counts and the reason they'd want to select for them is because well now we're going into body count which is different than virginity
04:16:30
Miss Kenzieno it's not yes it absolutely is no you can't have bodies and be a virgin well body count is different than virginity like count is just a running count where like virginity but there's a
04:16:43
Miss Kenzieway to determine zero count would be a virgin that's what we mean by virginity zero body again like this is where I just think it's ineffective because sexual experience is an important thing when analyzing I don't um when it when
04:16:56
Miss Kenzieit comes to men wanting to let me just figure this out quick when it one second when when it comes to men having this preference um of guaranteed paternity I
04:17:07
Miss Kenziedon't think that this is an innate preference why uh because of essentially how um different mating
04:17:16
Miss Kenziestrategies worked in different tribes okay how did they work uh there were poly obviously polyamorous I mean even in Rome in more modern day patriarchy
04:17:27
Miss Kenziepatriarchy like they had like wedding orgies mhm yeah yeah so I think it was just in terms of uh making sure that you
04:17:38
Andrew Wilsonknow children were born so that the um you know community could survive well let's let's test this out I just want to ask you a quick
04:17:46
Andrew Wilsonquestion okay if your son came to you mhm and said Mom I have this woman who's only been with one man and I have another woman who's been with 250 men
04:17:58
Andrew Wilsonokay I'm trying to figure out which one I want to be with for the long term right which one would you tell him you would think would be the most
04:18:09
Andrew Wilsonmonogamous um I don't think you can determine monogamy based on body count well that's not what I asked you I I wouldn't have an answer so if if one had only now what if one had never slept
04:18:20
Miss Kenziewith anybody and the other one would s with 200 which one which one wouldn't have an answer you wouldn't have an answer yeah I mean um even even if I look at my own relationship um whatever you consider to be a body count mine was
04:18:32
Miss Kenziehigher than my ex's and he's the one that cheated so I don't think that that determines your faithfulness your monogamy I think that there are women who've had sex with hundreds of men who
04:18:45
Andrew Wilsoncould be monogamous to one man whereas a virgin could cheat on him sure I totally I totally ConEd that there's outliers to everything we're just talking about likelihoods I don't think that I I I
04:18:56
Miss Kenziemean I could even argue that because you have less sexual experience you would be more inclined to stray if you become bored the relationship becomes stale I don't think that that is the ultimate
04:19:07
Andrew Wilsonreason why people cheat do you trust Pew research um I think Pew research is a good source yeah so according to P research women who get married as virgins are far less likely to cheat than women who don't yeah I think
04:19:19
Andrew Wilsonthere's a correlation versus to well actually it gets higher by everyone the metric gets higher one is this the same study when it comes to um I I'm sorry is
04:19:30
Andrew Wilsonthis cheating it's not a study these aren't studies so were these surveys yeah and so I'm sorry explain yeah yeah so it's
04:19:41
Miss Kenziejust that the the corlet there seems to be that virgins cheat way less right I I think obviously we can and I don't um like obviously correlation is not causation and so when we talk about
04:19:53
Miss Kenziecausation all causation are correlates sure but again you would need to establish uh causation I could say that women who have like what you would deem lower body counts um would more
04:20:05
Andrew Wilsonthan likely be religious I won't even dispute this so if we if you and I agree that correlation is not causation but all causation is correlation then we're just looking for strong correlat and
04:20:15
Miss Kenziethat's what we're going to make determine cause well but cause is I think aren't all causes correlates uh one second I I think it's really silly
04:20:26
Miss Kenzieto say that relationships fail or people cheat because of necessarily their past experience I'm not even saying that okay so what what is your I'm explaining I'm explaining it to you so if it is the
04:20:39
Andrew Wilsoncase that we're just looking for strong corelates this seems to be a really strong correlate okay that if you're Virgin uh you're going to cheat way less now you can make the claim well have we determined that that's the cause well I
04:20:51
Andrew Wilsonthink I think even if you haven't let's just say that there's some other correlations there like I don't know maybe virgins like um they don't cheat for some other reason than they haven't been with a bunch of guys like uh
04:21:03
Andrew Wilsonthey're just virgins are more likely to be brunettes let's just say they're more like in to what be like Bernett I don't know I can't think of yeah I think I think Bernett ch yeah I can't think what
04:21:14
Andrew Wilsonthe correlate would be that would be more strong than less sexual experience leads to less cheating if virgins are cheating way less I can think of a single but you are technically correct
04:21:25
Andrew Wilsonthat correlation is not causation we need to establish causation but from a reasoning standpoint if you're a man right can you tell me the uh reasoning standpoint I'll link it to you actually
04:21:35
Andrew Wilsonbut from a um Mr re send me over that study or the PE research data so anyway you just tell me the title yeah I can't remember the top of my head but I'll give it to you right I've brought it up in debates and sourced it multiple times
04:21:47
Andrew WilsonI'll get it to you no no I'm but anyway so on the idea yeah on the idea of virgins let's just assume for a second right that we don't have a causation it's just a really strong coret me as a
04:21:59
Andrew Wilsonrational man why wouldn't I take that into consideration when doing mate selection um like I don't want to get divorced right I mean if you do want to enter
04:22:10
Andrew Wilsoninto marriage I think that's the obvious goal sure so then it seems like anything that would reduce me getting a divorce like having a woman who's much more religious that's going to reduce the chance of divorce it's also going to
04:22:22
Andrew Wilsondemonstrate to me that I think there can be other goals though like also going to demonstrate to me if she's not having sex that would you rather be unhappily married or Happily
04:22:33
Andrew WilsonDivorced um well from from my religious standpoint well from my preference or my religious standpoint either yeah from my preference I'd rather be happily divorced
04:22:43
Andrew Wilsonbut I still think you have obligation to married even if you're unhappy because unhappiness in marriage can be short term even if it's only a couple of years so I still think there's an obligation especially for kids to stay together so anyway I mean I don't necessarily
04:22:56
Andrew Wilsondisagree yeah so that aside we'll leave that for a second if I look for correlates of things right that strongly correlate that are going to reduce the chances of divorce for me in this case a
04:23:08
Andrew Wilsonwoman cheating is going to greatly increase the chances we get divorced that's just true why because if you cheat on me I'm going to divorce you so but you just said you
04:23:18
Andrew Wilsonhave a duty yes but there's threshold breakers for the duty okay why is that a threshold breaker because uh this would violate the very thing which kept me in the marriage to begin with which is the
04:23:29
Miss Kenziereligious obligation towards it I see um would the degree of what what are we counting as cheating is that intercourse no okay if you just like even the I have
04:23:40
Miss Kenziean emotional connection with X for me would be cheating oh really so if your wife said I have emotional feelings for this guy um even if she didn't want them but she just still felt it well that's
04:23:53
Andrew Wilsondifferent if well it depends on the severity like um I'm in love with Chad I don't want to be in love with Chad but I am that's it you're done that's
04:24:04
Miss Kenzieover so go be in love with Chad when we're not married I I'm sorry so if your wife developed emotional feelings for someone but didn't act on them yeah that's still done yeah okay yeah so I would consider you think you have
04:24:18
Miss Kenziecontrol over that I think I think I have control um sorry do you think someone has control over that of developing emotional feelings for someone else sure you have tons of control for instance you can put yourself in positions where you don't
04:24:31
Andrew Wilsonengage with men who aren't your husband and then you can't develop those feelings very simple wow Am I Wrong um I mean you could never talk to anyone ever
04:24:42
Andrew Wilsonyou can talk to people well I mean people you don't just meet a person and go oh my God I'm in love that doesn't I think things happen over over an elongated period of time yeah so I think
04:24:54
Andrew Wilsonyeah you have tons of control over that so but that aside back to the the idea of virginity if if it is true that virgins cheat less and that seems to be what the Pew research poll says and if
04:25:06
Andrew Wilsonyou have less than nine right it continuously decreases and then I don't remember what the number was before it basically flat I feel like you're talking about the Institute of family studies which actually said that women
04:25:18
Miss Kenziewith two to nine uh I believe two to n Partners had less divorce rates than women with zero to well no that was two to that was 2 to four I think believe it was 2 to n no CU decided that several times think it was 2 to four but we can
04:25:30
Miss Kenziecheck yeah I'll have Brian pull it up when he gets back still it is the higher uh 2 to9 and virgins and yeah but if I want toow like low body but let's just grant it let's just even Grant the the
04:25:43
Andrew Wilsonresearch for family studies and we'll just say like the 2 to9 right have a less divorce rate than even the Virgin right um fine like so if I obviously not
04:25:53
Andrew Wilsona Cause right yeah if I wasn't revolted well there could be other contributing correlates or confounding factors but the thing is is that if I'm not revolted so you agree with me that relationships
04:26:04
Andrew Wilsonrevolve around attraction um I guess it depends on what you mean by attraction can you have sex with men you're not attracted to can't know yeah right so neither can most people they don't want to have sex with people they're not attracted to so if
04:26:17
Miss Kenzieyou're a person are we just talking about physical attraction yeah okay yeah so if you're not physically attracted to a woman because she's not a virin I mean I think that's change like um there have been men that I haven't been like physically attracted to and then I get
04:26:30
Miss Kenzieto know them and they become attractive so then you become attracted to them right but I just want to say it's like not necessarily based on a physical basis but because of who they are as a person but you are attracted to them physically or you wouldn't sleep with them right yeah okay great or
04:26:43
Andrew Wilsonemotionally if you will okay whatever it is but so for men physical attraction and they don't want to sleep with women that they don't find physically attractive if they find this to be revolting to them right that there have
04:26:54
Andrew Wilsonbeen with other men they find they they can't maintain some type of attracted level to the other person um then what's
04:27:02
Miss Kenziewrong with them selecting for a virgin um I would wonder why this is a criteria cuz the only because you're not attracted to you if you're not a virgin
04:27:12
Miss Kenziewell but like why is that equality I think when we talk about like attractiveness um sure I think there can be um metrics that don't necessarily
04:27:25
Miss Kenziehave reason like for some reason I like brunettes more than blonds I don't know why um but when it comes to specific behaviors um I I think that's more of like a philosophical stance than just
04:27:38
Miss Kenzielike this innate you know I'm attracted to you because of X degree I mean you think you can help you think you can help what you find attractive
04:27:48
Miss Kenziewhat if I don't disclose though and then you do yeah so I'm not attracted anymore well let's just say hypothetically that um you know a beautiful man's attracted
04:27:59
Miss Kenzieto me and like everything is there the the personality the compatibility you know is is he really not attracted to me yeah what if he disclosed to you that he molested children would you still be attracted to him um I think there would still obious
04:28:12
Andrew Wilsonviously be some feelings for that person like I would you still be attracted to I wouldn't stay with him would you still be attracted to him or do you think you could decrease that would decrease the attraction level I mean I would definitely be repulsed yeah that's my whole point but I don't think that so
04:28:24
Andrew Wilsonthen all that matters is is that even if it's revealed to you later and now you you so basically I guess there would be like efficacy or um some form of validity CU I think like
04:28:36
Miss Kenziewomen engaging in consensual relationships is very different than someone who is engaging um like graping children but that's not in dispute it's just if this piece of information
04:28:48
Andrew Wilsonpertinent information was revealed to you that was not before could that deviate your attraction but what's reasonable I guess is what I'm asking I think it's totally reasonable if somebody releases to you that they have slept with 50 men that you could be
04:29:00
Andrew Wilsonrepulsed by that why is that not reasonable why why why would it be reasonable because you don't want to Envision men having sex with your woman so so it is a property thing then well it's not just a property owners
04:29:12
Andrew Wilsonrevulsion thing I don't know that just seems kind of insecure oh well then it's kind of insecure that you want data guy based on his past relationship molesting children I don't think that's insecurity
04:29:20
Miss Kenzieat all like that why inse him like him molesting children um is obviously a heinous act but he's reformed now he's not doing it anymore is obviously a
04:29:31
Miss Kenzieheinous act where like someone else engaging in a consensual relationship is not why would I have an issue that they've had a past partner because all that really matters is what devh your
04:29:42
Andrew Wilsonattractiveness so for you it deviates the attractiveness for this person because they did X activity is the same thing here no I I don't think that that is a
04:29:53
Andrew Wilsonum Fair equivalence well the it's 100% a fair equivalence we're just talking about your attractiveness to ex person and without attractiveness there can be no sex there's no relationship I think
04:30:06
Miss Kenziewe we have to talk about like essentially what um when we look at like societal qualifiers I think like there are obviously uh reasonable expectations
04:30:17
Miss Kenziewhen it comes to a partner I I just don't know why someone would be repulsed by consensual sex acts previously I don't understand why I feel like you're just kind of saying like men are
04:30:29
Andrew Wilsonconditioned into patriarchy to Value virginity because they view women AR like you're not making an argument right now can men not be attracted to women based on the fact that they have a
04:30:39
Andrew Wilsonhigher body count and if the answer is yes and attraction hang on and attraction requires is required for there to be sex in a relationship to begin with then I need an argument for
04:30:51
Andrew Wilsonwhy it is men can't be attracted to only virgins I need to know that what is the argument against that what you are you attracted to an experience you're attracted to the fact that they've had less men they've slept with that's an
04:31:03
Miss Kenzieattractive quality to you how is that attractive because it is it's attracted to you I don't think it is because it is you think you can help attraction um I I think that attraction can come
04:31:14
Miss Kenziefrom aspects of social conditioning sure so you could personally help right now who you're attracted to um I mean in some capacity I think
04:31:24
Miss Kenziethere are uh levels of conditioning when it comes to society that tell us like what are okay criteria and what are not okay so can gay men do that what do you mean can they determine that they're not
04:31:35
Miss Kenzieattracted to men uh I mean that's different now we're talking about it's different yeah now we're talking about like sexual identity versus like no that's we're talking
04:31:46
Andrew Wilsonabout what we're talking about that we find attractive do you think gay men can suddenly just will themselves to not be attracted to other gay men of course not but oh okay then how come sex sexual
04:31:59
Miss Kenzieidentity is very different than what we would consider preferences do you think if I like find brunettes attractive that like I don't find blondes attractive well wait a second I I'm I'm super
04:32:11
Andrew Wilsonconfused I also don't think that you could only find blondes attractive and not find brunettes attractive so you can definitely only find blond attrative so
04:32:21
Miss KenzieI think that when we talk about social prescriptions to say that men have this social prescription to want virgins to me is just no that's I didn't say
04:32:33
Miss Kenzieanything about social prescription for for men to have this philosophy or preference of wanting virgins to be um again is just essentially like misogynistic conditioning yeah that's an
04:32:46
Andrew Wilsonassertion right you're not actually making an argument so I need an argument for why it is that men couldn't be attracted to women who have not slept with any other men and that's the
04:32:57
Miss Kenziepreference for attractiveness I mean it it's information that only the person can give you that's right so if I
04:33:06
Andrew Wilsonsay I am a virgin and that's a not fact true then yeah but now we're back to the same issue with the guy who reveals that he
04:33:16
Andrew Wilsondidd kids if he tells you he didn't didd kids you find him amazing the second he reveals to you that he did you find that way less attractive guess I guess we like I feel like the false comparison here is like you're comparing an immoral
04:33:28
Andrew Wilsonact to a non- immoral man well that's a matter of perspective I could say that from my perspective or the Christian Perspective it's an immoral act to have sex outside of marriage so the less you do that immoral act the more attractive
04:33:38
Andrew WilsonI find you um yeah I so this is just a perspective when you're talking about the the moral aspect and by by the way
04:33:48
Miss Kenziebecause I mean I I think consent being a main basis um would would be a really good foundation when determining like um evaluating attractiveness based on
04:33:59
Miss Kenziesexual history wait say that I'm sorry when
04:34:10
Miss Kenziewe when we're talking about sexual history um I just don't know why consensual Mutual acts um can be like that that's not
04:34:21
Miss Kenzieimmoral engaging with someone consensually is not an immoral action from your view but from the view of the Christian it is so if you were a Christian and your
04:34:33
Andrew Wilsonpreference was to have a Christian woman right but why does Christianity prescribe that what whoes we're just talking about your I do think well I mean obviously that's
04:34:44
Miss Kenziea that matter when it comes to your preference for attractiveness because obviously it's a patriarchal prescription in order to maintain like male Supremacy so so is it with the
04:34:56
Andrew WilsonChristian purview is it equal well I think that that religion is the only thing which can account for things like Purity good bad they the only thing is
04:35:06
Andrew Wilsongive accounts for those things anyway so I I disagree with them okay well then uh let's take something that's super simple if you disagree with that Justice account for Justice from a
04:35:18
Andrew Wilsonsecular worldview like it's just as well so it's just as just for me if somebody uh were to murder my daughter for me to murder theirs that's just as just why isn't it you did wrong to me I
04:35:30
Andrew Wilsondid wrong back to you right you got exactly what you deserve back that seems very just and yet we don't do that again I think just isn't necessarily like what what is
04:35:42
Andrew Wilsonright in terms of punishment because like obviously you um killing the person's daughter doesn't bring your daughter back so what does that have to do with Justice if the idea is I think that would be the justice is where your
04:35:54
Miss Kenziedaughter was never killed yeah but so you're accounting for it just through preference so that's fine you can account no I'm just saying that um Justice and kind of like
04:36:05
Miss Kenzieretribution um or punishment is just not the the word justice if I remember correctly is to
04:36:14
Andrew Wilsonset to right that is the idea of Justice to set to right okay or to bring order something like this now don't quote me on that I could be wrong about it but I think that that's the emology is like just setting it right you could you can
04:36:27
Andrew Wilsonliterally make that anything you want to be just right anything again if someone's punished I don't think that's like to set to
04:36:35
Miss Kenzieright punishing somebody correct so jails bad um I mean I don't think that that's um necessarily like justice in
04:36:46
Andrew Wilsonitself especially within our system we we don't give like victims any access Yeah in our system into health so Justice is just perspective it can't be accounted for outside of your preference so the thing is is like since well I
04:36:58
Miss Kenziewould say justice would either be preventing the action from occurring in the future stopping me uh this is me saying again okay no you you're saying
04:37:09
Andrew Wilsonyes I'm defining the concept correct yeah from your from whose perspective though um from mine so it's accounted for by your preference my preference for what whatever justices okay
04:37:21
Miss Kenzieright you're accounting for it through your preference right um sure like I guess understanding of concept but um I think we can obviously see that like within harm
04:37:32
Andrew Wilsonreduction harm reduction itself counting for through your preference again you you want harm reduced like my preference could be that I want harm maximized you can't account for why mine is bad and yours is good other than because you
04:37:45
Miss Kenziewant harm reduced it's all accounted for through your preference well I think harm red like when we look at harm and suffering like that is a physiological experience that um our bodies do have
04:37:56
Miss Kenzienegative outcomes for and if we're both going to agree that our subjective experience is essentially what what our life is then um the thing of life that
04:38:07
Miss Kenziewe have value would need to be of of the best quality to where we have experiences um that are desired yeah but you can have
04:38:19
Andrew Wilsonexperiences that are desired that you would still be against even if they cause no harm because you don't have a consistent principle like here I'll give you great example two brothers want to have sex with each other and they're
04:38:31
Miss Kenzieconsenting adults this is wrong due to what um if there's no power Dynamic I mean I I don't have a claim against incest
04:38:42
Miss Kenziereally yeah oh other than it's just icky but no it's just a yucky what about necrophilia so necrophilia I do think um
04:38:52
Miss Kenzieis obviously what we talked about like a paraphilic which I would say in terms of someone's sexual uh psychology um is is harmful to them in
04:39:05
Miss Kenzieitself because it has the criteria that you're um engaging with someone who's unconscious you know engaging with someone at all well right but a an entity that is unconscious if you want
04:39:17
Andrew Wilsonyou're not engaging with an entity at all you're not engaging with anything right from your view there's no soul right right so then what are you
04:39:26
Miss Kenzieengaging with with a dead body I mean obviously you're you're having like there there is still um remnants of a person there even though personhood isn't present there's no
04:39:37
Miss Kenzieperson there personhood isn't present correct but there's nothing there it's just nothing right just just flesh I know but just again it's similar to
04:39:49
Andrew Wilsonsomeone if they were unconscious right no unconscious you agree that's still a person dead you agree it's not a person correct so then no it's not the same but I mean in terms of the the experience
04:40:01
Andrew Wilsonthat you have as the as salent not the experience but if you're experience is that you [ __ ] love this and it's great I think that's even if there is pleasure me from it it still is
04:40:12
Miss Kenzieharmful for you prove it what's the harm prove it how do you how do you demonstrate that's harmful the person tells you it's not harming me um again when when like the psychology it's kind of similar like people always say like
04:40:25
Miss Kenzieserial killers are really happy like uning and murdering people um but I do think there is harm because kind of the concept of like harm is done to you harm is done to
04:40:36
Miss Kenzieme [ __ ] I'm dude that's it's it's over for you Brian I think there are are psychological profiles of someone's sexual identity that even if they like it is still harmful to them it is
04:40:48
Andrew Wilsondetrimental yeah but you can't prove that you just like it's just made up right so a person says if a person's telling you I'm not harmed by this and I absolutely adore it right you can't
04:40:58
Miss Kenziedemonstrate that they're harmed by it I mean there are specific ways I think you can through like I mean you can't like test for it sure as it's happening because of certain brain chemical reac
04:41:11
Miss Kenzieis not being monitored but I think uh thank you I think you would agree like to someone um who is like cutting themselves even though they're happy about it and they love it they're still harming
04:41:23
Andrew Wilsonthemselves by your definition um actually I'll just grant it and by your definition sure we can literally see that there's cuts on the arm so I'm saying that what is going on
04:41:34
Andrew Wilsonhow brain you can't see so then how do you know it's true that it's actually harming them um you don't right like you don't
04:41:44
Miss Kenzieactually know that I I do cuz I think we can measure again like when we see aspects of suffering how that changes your brain and uh how trauma changes your brain these are physiological
04:41:56
Andrew Wilsonoccurrences that change your brain which which are harmful and negative you can't demonstrate that a person who tells you they're happy as can be banging a dead
04:42:05
Miss Kenziebody I mean I can't like see bra you're right we can see that people who suffer or have severe trauma have different um brain structures and they're not
04:42:16
Miss Kenziesuffering and have no trauma they love doing this it's their favorite maybe if they're not conscious of it sure no they're conscious of it they just really like it um again I I think you can see
04:42:27
Miss Kenziedifferences in brain structures when it comes to certain psychological outcomes even if the conscious is saying this is enjoyable so are you saying that there's not a single human being on planet Earth
04:42:36
Andrew Wilsonwho's a man who's had sex with a dead body and Contin ously does this who doesn't just do it because they enjoy
04:42:46
Miss Kenzieit um who does it like that that's not my claim though then what's the harm to him from hisp tell there are brain like it changes certain brain structures that
04:42:58
Andrew Wilsonare harmful to him even if he's not aware of it which ones I I don't know on that one yeah CU they it depend it depend can't you can't look at the brain that way and be like oh you've [ __ ] 20
04:43:09
Miss Kenziedead bodies and this this thing is Ted that'ss sure sure like obviously I can't say like you know this brain this region of your brain is where
04:43:19
Andrew Wilsonyou did necro the is where you did um like incest but so you're just doing the same thing right you're saying I think that it's harmful because I think it's harmful I can't really demonstrate it I
04:43:31
Miss Kenziejust think it is anyway I I think like psychology and sure I I acknowledge like I'm not um you
04:43:39
Miss Kenzieknow like a neurologist like a brain um yes I do think there is uh certain things that we can see in the outcomes of like how the brain Mals and transforms and responds to its
04:43:51
Andrew Wilsonenvironment that would we could measure and that would happen with every single man who engaged in that activity yes okay so then would you say that this is the case with women who have many many sexual partners that
04:44:03
Miss Kenzietheir amount of trauma would increase um again I think it would depend um on the experience itself like obviously I think someone um who has
04:44:15
Miss Kenziebeen graped several times is going to have a different sexual experience um you know maybe having however many bodies you want to ass uh let's just say for the sake of the
04:44:25
Miss Kenzieargument 10 bodies but every single one of them graped her there's going to be a different psychological profile than someone who has engaged in 10 consensual relationships I see do you think that a person who has engaged in multiple
04:44:38
Miss Kenzierelationships going to have more baggage than a person who hasn't I think it depends just generally on average I I see it's hard to to give that generalization because I think it depends on the quality of the