1v1 DEBATE: Andrew Wilson vs. Marxist Anti-Trump Feminist | Whatever Debates #11
Date: 2025-03-16
Duration: 7h 34m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Miss Kenzie(guest)
Key Moments
00:02:09
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Miss Kenzie on feminism
00:35:40
Key MomentAndrew's slavery hypothetical: if all men decided to enslave women, women could not resist
02:07:00
ControversyAndrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape.
03:17:00
Key MomentAndrew cites USSR: fully legal abortion led to 3 abortions per 1 live birth
04:58:20
Key MomentAndrew presses Kenzie on body count. She repeatedly refuses. 'If it doesn't matter why won't you tell?'
06:31:40
Key MomentKenzie's TikTok: Whatever deliberately books unprepared women against prepared conservatives to humiliate them
Topics Discussed
00:07:00
Feminism vs Marxism
Andrew: first-wave feminism fed women into capitalism, contradicting Marxism. Kenzie distinguishes liberal from Marxist feminism.
00:35:00
Force Doctrine
Andrew: men's biological physical superiority = monopoly on force. Slavery hypothetical.
02:07:00
Sexual Consent
Andrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape under FRIES model. Both agree holding down = rape.
03:05:00
Abortion
Kenzie: no restrictions all 9 months. Andrew cites USSR 3:1 abortion ratio. Semantic bait-and-switch debate.
04:05:00
Purity Culture and Virginity
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Kenzie refuses to disclose body count.
06:26:40
Whatever Podcast Misogyny TikTok
Brian plays Kenzie's TikTok calling Whatever a misogynistic abuse space. Brian refutes: 15% OF guests, women reach out.
07:17:30
Closing Statements
Andrew: proprietary definitions. Kenzie: precise terminology, restorative justice.
Transcript
Page 3 of 9
01:54:59
Miss Kenzieyou can't make the dec because like I think there is motivation obviously between countries who are engaging in war and the reasons behind those yeah but you can't solve those
01:55:10
Miss Kenziereasons like I I'm not um I'm not disagreeing with you that under like the idea of patriarchy that there is going to be some dependence on men because obviously I would think that still under the idea of matriarchy too no I I don't
01:55:22
Miss Kenziethink that male violence would would be pervasive I mean when do you think patriarchy one second when do you think patriarchy originated I I I think it's
01:55:32
Miss Kenziealways been the case yeah I would say patriarchy originated depending again on what um aspect you know what country we're looking at or what region uh would
01:55:42
Miss Kenziebe between like 8,000 BC and 5,000 BC when do you think um what do you think our oldest written record is um um I believe it's uh Egyptian scribes which I think
01:55:58
Miss Kenzieis um yeah isn't that when uh the Sumerian yes and isn't that when they worship female Gods no I knew was a male God no was a female God no Anu was a
01:56:09
Andrew Wilsonmale god promise no she was she was the good mother that's not a shoe a she Anu I'm pretty
01:56:18
Andrew Wilsonconfident Anu was a a male God I N A N na yeah like anunaki that comes from the god the male god Anu like the the exaltation of Anu no it's just Anu I
01:56:30
Miss Kenziethink Anu yeah the exal means god it just means god well the exaltation of an Anu is is thought to be the first poem and that's a female god L what do you mean l l is another God and in fact I
01:56:42
Andrew Wilsonmean if you're talking in fact I actually have a list here of Egyption Gods I'm sorry pre- 3500 year Gods let me give you the list real quick sure just because I brought it with me Wang on real quick Brian before you get into
01:56:54
Brian Atlasthe Super chats oh no while he's looking that up you brought up the term patriarchy just can uh can you just Define the term
01:57:02
Brian Atlasfor yeah male Supremacy domination independency okay male Supremacy domination and what was the last one sorry dependence dep okay Anu
01:57:14
Andrew WilsonMesopotamia Samaria 5000 BC King of the Gods enal Mesopotamia suiran enki Mesopotamia
01:57:22
Andrew Wilsonuh p uh pre-dynastic Egyptian 6000 BC um pre chupati L I said L pre Canan
01:57:32
Andrew Wilsonpre1 3900 BC I mean the list goes on and on and on and on and on of male Gods all right I'm not saying there are male Gods but wasn't that all
01:57:46
Miss Kenziebefore um
01:57:53
Miss Kenzieit's all before your time frame of 3,500 years ago yeah uh no I I said between patriarch was established between uh 8,000 BC and 5,000 BC so that would be
01:58:04
Andrew Wilsonpost patriarchy okay and now look up when the Epic of Gilgamesh happened okay because what I'm trying to determine is where you're getting your evidence that
01:58:14
Miss Kenziepatriarchy happened 8,000 years ago when do you think our oldest written manuscript comes from well um I I don't think like obviously there's going to be a difference between how we establish
01:58:26
Miss Kenzieculture in prehistoric times versus historic times and obviously historic would be defined as written yeah so when we're talking about things which are written what written accounts are there
01:58:37
Andrew Wilsonof nonpatriarchal societies what the Amazon are myth
01:58:43
Miss Kenziethe here one second um I think it's uh Egyptian the God I know how to spell it
01:59:04
Brian Atlasuh you can do your thing now if I can look this up and if you if you need us to look anything up on our end we'd be happy to are you looking for like a list of languages by the first um I'm looking for something really specific and I
01:59:16
SPEAKER_03can't remember how it's spelled cuz we have Egyptian Sumerian Acadian she's looking for Egyptian matriarchies oh okay mhm is that what
01:59:28
Miss Kenzieyou're looking for because we can um there's a specific uh written scripture that talked about um like if you are
01:59:35
Andrew Wilsonmarried to your wife like Adorn her uh to her an Egyptian text or okay yeah but that that could that could
01:59:46
Miss Kenziebe based around Mutual submission as well which still wouldn't be matriarchy um I I mean if you want me to read the whole thing I can are called are you
01:59:57
Brian Atlasreferencing the Nar narur pallet I no apologies if I'm saying that wrong narur
02:00:09
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02:00:20
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02:00:30
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02:00:51
Brian Atlasalso we have uh let's see here we have a goal on the YouTube side I I changed it it's uh so you have we have about
02:01:02
Brian Atlasanother two hours left for the goal if you want to reach it a pineapple pizza party which is Andrew Wilson's favorite uh Pizza flavor and we'll also do a
02:01:12
Brian Atlasroast session a roast segment uh at the end of the show if we hit that goal so send it in guys send it in Andrew's uh
02:01:22
Brian Atlasdying to have some pineapple pizza guys you know it's his you know you got to have at least one slice not eating pineapple pizza Andrew I'll puke I will I will use Force Doctrine I'll use Force
02:01:33
Brian Atlasdoct I will use I'm going to force it uh just kidding joke joking joking um so yeah we got the Egyptians it's a maxims of Hut HB do you want us to pull it up
02:01:46
Miss Kenzieor you're you just want to reference what it is um I it's thought to be uh in one second sure really quick while you're still
02:01:56
Brian Atlasworking on that we have Ole with uh gifted 50 memberships hey Ogle uh thank you so much man really appreciate your uh your G 50 gifted whatever memberships thank you so much man thank you thank
02:02:08
Miss Kenzieyou sorry go ahead uh it's a book more than 5,000 years old and possibly the oldest book in the world um and and essentially talks about worshiping uh if you are wise stay home love your wife
02:02:19
Miss Kenziedon't argue with her feed her Adorn her massage her okay that it doesn't say submit to her I mean I don't have the full uh section right here
02:02:30
Andrew WilsonM um what is the evidence that this is a matriarchal society uh well obviously the written
02:02:39
Miss Kenzietext um and then like I said before the exaltation of an um that's thought to be one of the oldest poems which is uh reflecting the Samaran goddess do you
02:02:49
Andrew Wilsonagree that Christianity is patriarchal yes okay is it true in patri in uh Christianity that we Elevate and venerate the Virgin
02:02:59
Andrew WilsonMary um I don't know what you mean by venerate we venerate we say prayers we I mean sure yeah we we V we venerate the Virgin Mary right okay yeah so the thing is is that even if it is the case that
02:03:11
Andrew Wilsonthere's female goddesses just like there were in other Pagan Traditions that doesn't mean that that's a matriarchal society well how would you define a matriarchal society then women are in
02:03:21
Miss Kenziechar I of the father is is patriarchy well um so I I would say prior to um 8000 BC we lived in more
02:03:33
Miss Kenzieegalitarian society um leaning more towards matriarchy because of paternity uncertainty um as well as essentially just the relationship within tribes in
02:03:45
Miss Kenzieorder to uh guarant how does paternity un certainty assist with your point that these are matriarchal societies um well I said a galarian who essentially were men and women built Society together I would say they would
02:03:57
Miss Kenzielead towards matriarchy because obviously at that time survival of uh tribes is most important and obviously having children that survive and the care caregiving and nurturing of
02:04:09
Miss Kenziechildren uh would have been fulfilled by the role of women yeah what what makes you think that women had a choice in that I'm not saying that they did yeah so then it's not matriarchal then um it
02:04:21
Miss Kenzieit absolutely what what I I said a galarian essentially and women working together if women don't have a choice do you think that that's them working with
02:04:33
Andrew Wilsonmen what do you mean having a choice like why if man goes Bonk on head and you get graped how is that a choice how's that equality and egalitarianism well
02:04:45
Miss Kenzieum I I don't know why you're just assuming I I would say that like the the idea of rape or I'm sorry of grape became uh into existence like with agriculture what what do you so you
02:04:57
Miss Kenziethink that men weren't graping before then no I don't oh what's your evidence for that I don't think they understood men's role when it came to how children how women became pregnant and how
02:05:09
Miss Kenziechildren were created what do that have to do with them just being horny that well I I don't think men grape because they're horny why not what do you mean so wait a second let me get this right is an act
02:05:21
Andrew Wilsonof humiliation so primitive primitive man right um you agree with me that homo sapiens have been around for about 100,000 years I think it's 300,000 at
02:05:31
Andrew Wilsonleast 100,000 yeah okay but we didn't come in so we actually operated the same way we are right now we have the same brains same physicality basically same everything differences in height
02:05:42
Andrew Wilsondifferences in smaller things like that but we have the same capacity so do you saying within that 100,000 years this let's just say for this for sake of argument but you know what we'll do the
02:05:53
Andrew Wilson300,000 within this 300,000 years only 10,000 years ago men figured out the technology of grape uh yeah I I don't think like if
02:06:04
Miss Kenzieyou don't know that sex creates children mhm then you your whole theory is that men are graping so that children can come into existence that's not my theory
02:06:14
Brian Atlasthat's your theory on I think that's not my hide it in the sources go to the streamyard click the eyeball no no no no no no no no no no no no stay in OBS look at the sources
02:06:26
Brian Atlastab just hide streamyard just hide it I apologize we had a technical diff difficulty you guys continue though yeah I think that men grape because they're horny too I disag
02:06:38
Andrew Wilsonone guys oh oh you disagree hold on can you hide it here too
02:06:48
Andrew Wilsonsorry yeah so let's find Let's test that and see if you actually do disagree um does every single time you have sex with a woman require consent well I would say sex implicitly
02:06:59
Andrew Wilsonum by definition would be consensual if it's not then it's grape so then every instance of sex would require consent correct okay so if a husband wakes up in the morning and he has a boner and he
02:07:10
Andrew Wilsonleans over and starts banging his wife while she's asleep is he graping her yes he is why is he doing that cuz he's horny I
02:07:20
Andrew Wilsonthink cuz he assumes he has consent yeah so he's horny so therefore if it is the case that he's still graping her even if he assumes he has consent and does not that he's graping her because he's horny
02:07:32
Andrew Wilsonright no I I don't think that he thinks he's graping her doesn't but that that has nothing to do with the fact of the matter you said that men do not the motivation behind grape is not that
02:07:43
Andrew Wilsonthey're horny that's definitely his motivation behind that grape no cuz he doesn't think he's graping her why would it matter whether he thinks he's doing because that determines the motivation right you're saying that men have to
02:07:56
Miss Kenziethink that they're doing the act in order for them to be motivated by to do the ACT no not at all I'm not saying that um men don't commit grape un like
02:08:11
Andrew Wilsonunknowingly Okay so this guy is graping his wife which by the way means that I've graped my wife I don't know how many times that's a weird thing to admit um no I'm I'm fine with it like if fine saying that you've graped your wife yeah
02:08:23
Andrew Wilsonif you think that me rolling over in the morning and she's asleep and waking her up with sex is grape I'm fine with she's unconscious she's asleep for sure that's unconscious right
02:08:34
Andrew Wilsonsure yeah if if she had too much to drink and passed out yeah we' done that too when we're both drunk yeah well I mean where she passed out yeah she's also great Me by this metric too she's woken me up with sex I didn't content I
02:08:47
Miss KenzieI just want to make sure I understand what you're saying here are are you saying that you've you've graped your wife while she's been passed out I'm saying while my wife has been sleeping I've woken her up with sex many times
02:08:58
SPEAKER_02and vice versa so did we grape each other uh by definition yeah yeah so so we're both she grapes me sometimes I grape her sometimes little Force
02:09:09
SPEAKER_02penetration is still grap a little grape here little grape there she grapes a little I grape a little weird we all do a little bit of graping why totally not weird by the way I I'm just going to tell you
02:09:24
Miss Kenziewhat's that would you continue if she didn't wake up uh I don't know half the time I'm drunk right so you you don't know if you would continue no I don't think I would
02:09:37
Miss Kenziecontinue if she didn't wake up why that it's less fun it's right so so obviously you want your partner to be conscious enthusiastic yeah but she
02:09:48
Miss Kenziewasn't conscious when we started I I understand that little grape there so then why not just wake her
02:09:57
Andrew Wilsonup why do I need I am waking her up with my penis waking her up my penis crazy why is that crazy do you know how common it is that men and women wake each other
02:10:10
SPEAKER_02up like a man will be woke up by his girlfriend how common it is yeah so what does that have to do with anything what makes it crazy because they're unconscious so
02:10:21
Andrew Wilsondo you know what implied consent is um I do know what implied consent is there's an implied consent when you get married it's it's implied that you're consenting to sex I don't think it's
02:10:34
Andrew Wilsonnecessarily then you have to bite the bullet that my wife has raped me any number of times I've told you I I already agree with you and you think that that's rational that it's rational to say what do you think that I'm emotionally scarred cuz my wife rapes me
02:10:45
Andrew Wilsonor grapes me no no but she's is she emotionally scarred by me graping her um I mean I don't know probably not so then rap's grape can just be a neutral act where it doesn't harm anybody I mean I
02:10:56
SPEAKER_02definitely do think it it can harm in certain capacities if you're not consciously aware of it yeah but it's not harming anybody right so grape hang on Grape can be morally neutral I just want to make sure we're clear what would make it morally bad demonstrate the harm
02:11:10
Miss Kenziewho's being harmed um well I think in some Capac it would be the same harm that would come uh of someone engaging with someone who
02:11:22
Miss Kenzieuh is like dead I think the psychological I I think psychological aspect of wanting to demonstrate it demonstrate that there's har second one second I think the psychological aspect
02:11:33
Andrew Wilsonof wanting to engage an intercourse with someone who is unconscious is is highly harmful demonstrate it demonstrate what how how so if my wife you just got done saying if my wife
02:11:46
Andrew Wilsonwakes me up it's classified as what is like paraphilic help me out with this I'm totally asleep okay completely asleep and I wake up and my wife is giving me a [ __ ] I wake up
02:11:56
Andrew Wilsonto that okay what's the harm how have I been harmed show tell me how tell me how this possibly is harmful to me I'm not saying it could be harmful to you so
02:12:08
Miss Kenziethen grape is morally neutral sometimes um no I don't think it's morally neutral like I I don't think like NE I don't think harm necessarily has to
02:12:18
Miss Kenziecome to the victim in order for it to be then what would make this morally bad what makes it morally bad I told you the psychology of wanting to engage in intercourse with someone who is
02:12:31
Miss Kenzieunconscious okay why is it you haven't explained how that's harmful or how that's bad one second would you engage with your wife if she were dead no of
02:12:41
Andrew Wilsoncourse not why because her soul has left her body she's not a person anymore her soul has left her body pleas She's Not a Human Being anymore she's be like [ __ ] dirt can you give me like the secular
02:12:54
Andrew Wilsonposition why do I need to give you any other position how is it I I think it's you need to give me from your position instead of office skating what actually makes ital try to give it an analogy
02:13:05
Andrew Wilsonyeah well can you just tell me this what makes it immoral for my wife to wake me up with a [ __ ] what makes that immoral by the way have you ever woken
02:13:14
SPEAKER_02your ex-husband do you ever wake him up like that no never never happened once not not that no no all right but you you realize this is very
02:13:27
Miss Kenziecommon right um sure yes and so just people are just commonly graping each other um yeah I mean I think there are a lot of instances where where grape happens where people don't think they are
02:13:39
Andrew Wilsongraping someone so that's that's a part of like miscommunication Theory okay great I just want to make sure I get the correct or the the answer to this question
02:13:49
Andrew Wilsoncorrect what is the actual harm and demonstrate it for me logically please or the immorality why is it
02:13:58
Miss Kenzieimmoral for my wife to do that to me um well I mean obviously if if we're talking about consent I think uh the
02:14:08
Miss Kenziebasis for that is the fries model which is uh freely given reversible informed um enthusiastic and specific and so obviously it doesn't meet certain
02:14:20
Andrew Wilsonaspects of those criteria why is that immoral though I like it I like it when she does that what is immoral about her doing that I want her to do that I'm not
02:14:31
Andrew Wilsonconscious at the time that's true but I'm very [ __ ] enthusiastic that I want to wake up that way very enthusiastic about
02:14:43
Miss Kenzieit I again I I think pleasuring someone who is unconscious is is psychologically concerning uh I'm sorry about your mind state of
02:14:54
Miss Kenzieconcern that's very carinish of you but can you tell me why it's imish it's very car your concerns very carinish but why is it immoral um I I would place it under like
02:15:04
Andrew Wilsona paraphilic um sexual behavior so all of the uh men out there whose wives have woken them up with sex all of those
02:15:13
Miss Kenziewomen are ped are I'm sorry paraphilic paraphilic um I think the act itself they want to have sex with dead they want to have sex with dead people I mean paraphilic is just defi just defined as
02:15:25
Miss Kenzielike atypical sexual preferences and yeah to like yeah but you were saying with someone who you were saying it was necrophilic well necrophilia falls under paraph so does like necro necrophilia so
02:15:38
Miss Kenzieyou think that there's tons and tons of women out there are NE obviously like like pedophiles and uh like necrophilia are two different things just means atypical sexual desires like I I would I would classify Kink under that do you
02:15:51
Andrew Wilsonagree with me that tons and tons and tons of women likely wake their man up with some sort of I did yeah yeah so like asked and answered so then is that they're they're kind of necrophiles that's not what I'm saying well I don't understand what
02:16:04
Miss Kenzieyou're saying it can't be by the way that doesn't make any sense it can't be uncommon if it's common um well it it's if we're talking
02:16:13
Miss Kenzieabout like the um experience of like atypical sexual behaviors then yes engaging with someone who is is unconscious Comm is an atypical it's not
02:16:24
Miss Kenzieatypical if you're saying it's common that would be typical I mean in terms of like a common occurrent sure but in terms of like a common outcome of
02:16:35
Miss Kenzieintercourse it's not yes it is you you I'm sorry I think it's very typical you you commonly start intercourse unconscious that's not what I said I said it's very typical to do it
02:16:48
Andrew Wilsonthough so like I don't typically uh eat Gourmet caviar but you would agree with me that it is typical that people do eat Gourmet it's like a
02:16:59
Miss Kenzietypical Behavior you wouldn't say it's atypical te or caviar would you again just because something is common doesn't mean it's typical what is typical mean so I I think like we could talk about
02:17:11
Miss Kenziefrequency let's just make sure we get this right what does typical mean try to I just want to make sure I know what typical means sure one second I think we can talk about things happening in common frequency
02:17:21
Miss Kenzieum but in terms of how often things happen outside of that frequency is going to make it like so 1% of 4 million is going to be a large number so we
02:17:32
Miss Kenziecould say it's common but in terms of looking at it in a percentage it's only 1% so it's atypical okay so I don't understand how
02:17:42
Andrew Wilsonwhen we're talking about behavior um ipal what do it okay then what threshold does it need to meet to become atypical or for Behavior like
02:17:53
Miss Kenziepercentage wise I I don't know so then how do you know what's atypical I would just say the classification uh do do you think most people when they have sex are
02:18:04
Andrew Wilsonare doing so unconscious so like with an unconscious what I said no so so that that's my my threshold okay well then do you think
02:18:14
Andrew Wilsonthat most people have sex missionary style or doggy style most of the time what V had to gas cuz would that make doggy style
02:18:26
Andrew Wilsonatypical um well no cuz again we're talking about percentages right so then I would need to know what is the percentage before it becomes atypical um I don't know I don't know
02:18:37
Miss Kenzieyeah yeah so then you can't really make the claim it's atypical well then how can we make the claim that anything is atypical good good question I didn't make the claim it's atypical you don't think like par paraphilic
02:18:49
Andrew Wilsonsex desires exist yeah I think that we can definitely make claims to that yeah yeah sure okay sure but when I I guess the delineation here we're talking about is just typical versus not typical I
02:19:00
Andrew Wilsonthink that it's if if you're talking about what is common yeah I think it's super common that this happens all the time in terms of volume or in terms of
02:19:09
Andrew Wilsonpercentage um both yeah I think it's very common so you think this is like 50% of sexual interactions but I think that 50% of
02:19:21
Miss Kenziepeople have had this sexual interaction but I'm asking in terms of we if we were to classify all sexual interactions would would this be a
02:19:31
Andrew Wilsoncommon where people start off intercourse with one partner unconscious no no no it's not it's not going to be something it's not going to be but that
02:19:41
Andrew Wilsondoesn't make it not common you know what I mean like I feel like we're quibbling now like we're saying the same thing I hope we are but maybe we can semantically maybe we can semantically
02:19:52
Miss Kenzieget here I mean why why would okay yeah we already we you already answered cuz I'm horny that's why I do it well um and I enjoy it I enjoy graping I enjoy it
02:20:05
Andrew Wilsonhaving sex with someone unconscious my wife yeah yeah I like waking her up that way but you said if she didn't wake up you would stop you know she does sometimes she's like I don't she's like
02:20:17
Andrew Wilsonah and I'm like yeah that's right and she's like okay I know yeah she's like like she can't believe this is happening I've really shocked her and then she just kind of
02:20:29
Miss Kenzieshe's okay with it is that wild um am I graping her I I I think without having some form of like Express consent then yeah yeah damn I do this
02:20:43
Miss Kenzieall the time like constantly yeah it happens all the time constantly it's crazy yeah like anytime I wake up with a
02:20:52
Miss Kenzieboner if she's not awake she's definitely getting woke up that way why I I'm curious why don't you just wake her up I am waking her up with my penis I'm asking before I'm asking what what
02:21:04
Miss Kenzieis the purpose of waking her up with your penis rather than just like jolting her because I think it's hilarious and it feels great you get the same outcome whether you wake her up if you wake her up it's like a big surprise for her you
02:21:16
Andrew Wilsonknow surprise a surprise of is wanted I just assume it's wanted so you just assume consent from
02:21:27
Andrew Wilsonmy wife yes absolutely and by the way I'm just going to tell you right I completely stand behind this this is not
02:21:35
Andrew Wilsontrolling 100% I I've never 100% stand behind this and I think it's not a big deal at all okay like not even a little bit and I actually haven't heard you
02:21:47
Andrew Wilsondemonstrate cuz you said it's not harmful to her and it's not harmful to you I actually haven't heard you demonstrate why this is even bad they just kind of just think so I mean sure I
02:21:59
Miss KenzieI definitely think it's really icky that someone wants to have sex with someone who's unconscious like um I think having would you have sex with her if she were in a coma no so so
02:22:11
Andrew Wilsonwhat what is the delineation here well I just would get the I I'm just no like no really like from your what if she has asthma she does have asthma oh okay yeah just checking does what does that have
02:22:23
Miss Kenzieto do that could like stun her into like a you know like she can't breathe yeah I don't know Rachel has uh asthma right now yeah mhm yeah I never mind I'm sorry what is am I missing something with his
02:22:36
Andrew Wilsonasthma have to do but here's the thing I will say this okay I'm actually okay with my wife like having sex with me if I was in a coma
02:22:45
Andrew WilsonI'd be fine with that that's crazy I I why what crazy about it why should she deprive herself because I'm in a
02:22:55
Miss Kenziecoma um I think when we're talking about like sexual experience um consent is definitely the foundation in terms of you're not only considering your experience but you're also considering
02:23:06
Miss Kenzieyour partners no I'm just considering mine like I just want to have a good time so I wake her up with my penis yeah
02:23:16
Miss KenzieI think it's um very harmful to not consider your partner's experience when engaging uh in in Intercourse cuz it is it is a mutual experience why does you
02:23:28
Andrew Wilsonthink she does that to me then do you think she just doesn't respect me very much that she would wake me up like that like I just wake up and she's literally writing me don't you think that's horrible what if she like you
02:23:39
Miss Kenziewoke up with her like using your her teeth what do you mean huh oh SC um I I really really don't want to talk about the sex life you have with
02:23:52
Andrew Wilsonyour wife can we can we make it maybe less about this is just no this is super easy for us to get down to this I crazy ass idea you have of what that want
02:24:03
Miss Kenzieconsent so like here I'll give you an example um I'm drunk and a woman's drunk are we graping each other yes you think that that's not [ __ ]
02:24:13
Miss Kenziecrazy no I mean do you think uh like children engaging would be great each other no oh yeah see I I think I just have a higher standard for consent when
02:24:24
Andrew Wilsonit comes to no no no wait you said children yeah yeah yeah that would be well that wouldn't be grape that would be something different because it is true that they can't consent right but
02:24:35
Andrew Wilsonthey both kind of can't consent together so they don't I don't think they understand the ramifications of what they're doing I think if you're drunk you do I don't think that drunk being drunk I just put your logic into a
02:24:46
Andrew Wilsondifferent scenario so it's not the same logic how how is it because in one you don't understand the other one you do like one you don't have the capacity for again it depends how drunk you are you might not have the capacity Okay then if
02:24:57
Miss KenzieI get drunk and murder somebody not my fault um I mean uh people have gotten got off for murdering people in their sleep yeah so
02:25:09
Miss KenzieI didn't consent to murder right so therefore I like no no big deal I mean you didn't consent I I don't know what that has to do with anything in terms of like the vi the rights violation you
02:25:20
Andrew Wilsongrape when you're drunk are you responsible for that yes so I don't understand then I'm very now I'm actually really confused so you can be held responsible for the actions that
02:25:32
Miss Kenzieyou take when you're drunk of course okay yeah like even if you're blacked out and you get in your car and you drive and you kill someone yeah okay so then why can't two people consent when they're
02:25:43
Miss Kenziedrunk consent meaning to agree cuz obviously it doesn't meet the criteria of being informed Okay so I don't then why wouldn't it be attempted murder instead of murder if you killed someone kill them right I mean I guess if you
02:25:56
Andrew Wilsontried and you failed it would be attempted murder okay so let me ask you this okay uh even though that makes no sense I'll just let it go just to try how does that make no sense I'll explain okay so let's say two people uh grape
02:26:09
Andrew Wilsoneach other why aren't both of them put brought up on charges for grape well most people who grape aren't brought up on charges yeah I know but that's not my question my question is if two people get drunk and have sex they're graping
02:26:21
Miss Kenzieeach other shouldn't both of them be charged with a crime I mean in theory yes so do you think that we should mobilize law enforcement to enforce that um I mean I think again it's what
02:26:34
Andrew Wilsondo you mean to mobilize law enforcement well it's not okay for me to Grape somebody or them to Grape me right why would it make it okay for us to Grape each other at the same time I'm not saying it's okay okay great then it should fall under the crime of grape do
02:26:47
Miss Kenzieyou think if like I go out with my best friend and then I wake up in bed with them naked and you know we assume that we had sex that that that isn't harmful to sure if it's something that you you
02:26:59
Andrew Wilsondidn't want to do sure I think it's harmful to you okay yeah so then people
02:27:04
Miss Kenziewho get drunk and have sex should go to jail um I mean I think if uh yeah you I in terms of going to jail uh I think
02:27:16
Miss Kenzieit's going to be really hard to establish establish what want Grapist to go to jail right yes or no um well I I don't think that like prison is
02:27:27
Miss Kenzienecessarily an effective way to to solve rights violations where do you want Grapist to go uh well I I I'm for a reformative justice so I'm against police and
02:27:39
Miss Kenzieprisons are we talking about like what my ideal would be or within this current Society within this current Society where should they go um within that aspect of of two
02:27:50
Andrew Wilsonpeople got drunk and had sex with each other so are is there no that's not what I asked should where should Grapist go
02:28:00
Miss Kenziewhen they grape should they go to prison or not um I think they should go to some kind of uh mental health facility
02:28:11
Miss Kenzieor um should have some kind of Duty to uh a essentially address the harm that
02:28:23
Andrew Wilsonthey've committed within Society I'm more on focusing well are you going to isolate them in this mental health fa Behind Bars it depends it depends sure if they graped are you going to put them behind bars while they're getting help
02:28:36
Andrew Wilsonso that they're not part of society it depends yeah it depends on what on obviously the context of the crime it's grape that's the context you have grape
02:28:47
Andrew Wilsonsomebody sure but are you saying that some some grapes are more morally bad than other grapes I'm saying that they have different uh
02:28:55
Andrew Wilsontreatments okay so if a man grapes a girl right M she can't consent she doesn't consent I mean you say girl you're talking child no a woman sorry
02:29:08
Andrew Wilsonokay yeah so he grapes a woman he should go to jail right um well I no I I I believe in restorative justice yeah okay where this
02:29:20
Andrew Wilsonguy goes you want to keep him there while he gets this done cuz he's not going to consent to go to it right again it would depend on on
02:29:30
Andrew Wilsoncontext okay um so he's had a party with a girl she's drunk and he's not he has sex with her did he grape
02:29:40
Miss Kenzieher uh she's drunk he's not okay yes he graped her what should happen to that guy like what what would would my sentence be
02:29:52
Miss Kenzieyeah um that uh essentially if we're talking about restorative justice that he is educated on the harm that he um committed um and that he receives mental
02:30:04
Andrew Wilsonprofessional help in terms of understanding his actions so does he go someplace for this to happen that he's not allowed to leave
02:30:14
Miss Kenzieuntil it's all done I mean in that context um yeah be for a short duration of time sure and is that place going to have like bars and guards and things like that in order to
02:30:26
Miss Kenziekeep him there um maybe not bars but maybe um you know like doors that lock sure and then he gets out and he goes and he does it again what happens then where should he go then um he would go back to the
02:30:39
Miss Kenziefacility and then he does it again a long-term care facility yeah oh longterm now yeah okay and would that place have bars and guards so he couldn't leave um I'm again not not bars and guards but
02:30:50
Miss Kenzieyeah doors that lock attendance so what happens if he escapes like he doesn't want to do it and he leaves and he leaves mhm then he
02:31:00
Andrew Wilsonwould be brought back and so it's likely that most people would want to leave they don't want to be there right sure yeah so
02:31:12
Andrew Wilsonthen wouldn't you do something to keep them in like bars and guards I mean I I'm answering the same you're asking the same question and I'm answering well because okay so it's like this they go to a mental health facility the reason
02:31:25
Andrew WilsonI'm asking and but now it feels like I have to pry it out so I'll just spell it out right they escape they go they do the same crime you're going to take them back to the same facility they escape they do the same crime they going to take them back to the same facility the
02:31:36
Miss Kenziethe difficulty with your example is that you're making a lot of presuppositions is that if um you know
02:31:44
Miss Kenziesomeone commits this act that um they have a high likelihood
02:31:53
Andrew Wilsonrecidivism uh they do have a high rate of recidivism I I don't think so yeah because I don't they don't even think that they see it as a problem like I don't think that two people get drunk and have sex even see it as an issue
02:32:04
Andrew Wilsonwell then why are they filing a police report they're not but here's the thing do they need to file a police report for me to file a police report somebody's been graved no I can file that report right how how would you file that report
02:32:17
Andrew Wilsonlike if some chick got graped behind a dumpster and didn't want to come forward I can still call the police and file a report saying I witnessed a grave sure yeah so that I mean you can do the same thing with two drunk
02:32:28
Miss Kenziepeople right hey officer but was drunk and he was drunk you're kind of see and this is kind of the the issue that I have when we talk about um grape and
02:32:37
Miss Kenzielike sexual violence is that uh there seems to be like this notion that the judicial system or legislation can solve for these things and solve for these
02:32:47
Andrew Wilsonoutcomes and I just don't think that they can well I think it has to be more of a proactive measure I don't even rather than a reactive measure I don't even think they agree with you on this
02:32:59
Andrew Wilsonthat this is grape I don't think that so for instance I don't think that two people who get drunk and have sex are graping each other I think that that defies what we mean by gra I mean I think there's a level of degree like you
02:33:12
Andrew Wilsonwould say if someone is is blacked out drunk and someone else is sober yeah I think that when we're talking about grape we're talking about about forcing yourself on somebody who doesn't want it it's a violation there're ton like I
02:33:25
Andrew Wilsoncould even give you examples Bill Burr famously had the bit where he was like no doesn't always mean no and the feminist says yes it does and he's like no it doesn't because you can have
02:33:34
Andrew Wilsonthings like no no stop no no and it's and they're completely teasing and you laugh because it's true right it doesn't actually always because I think it's
02:33:44
Miss Kenziefunny yeah but it doesn't always mean no no doesn't actually always mean no do do you think that that gives like young men the impression that when they hear no that it's like a negotiate a negotiation
02:33:56
Miss Kenzieopportunity I think sometimes it is it's pretty obvious why like it's super obvious to me that like you want to talk someone into having sex with you yeah no no no but I think I'm sorry I just want to let you
02:34:07
Andrew Wilsonknow like um I need a bathroom break soon yeah yeah I'll have a smoke too while you do that so sure uh but just to finish this point no I just wanted to so
02:34:16
Andrew Wilsonvery very simple mhm I think that when um like uh I might be playing with my wife or messing around with my wife for
02:34:25
SPEAKER_02instance and say something like this like um maybe she goes stop don't stop stop and then go and then she doesn't really want me to stop though right it's
02:34:37
Miss Kenziea big like there's body language in chemistry that comes with The Human Experience sure obviously you're in like a committed and established relationship
02:34:48
Miss Kenziesure so no does always mean no um I I think that sure context dependent I think it can obviously like if we're like obviously consent uh
02:35:03
Andrew WilsonCNC yeah I think that's different well that's that's another context though right yeah it is but I I think that no doesn't always mean no and that it is
02:35:13
Andrew Wilsoncontext dependent and I think that the idea that two drunk people having sex are graping each other and it's just okay cuz one one gra cancels out the grape it seems like if both of them are
02:35:24
Andrew Wilsongraping each other it's a contradiction inter ter it's like a paradox the Paradox is um grape is from your view can't consent and yet if they're both
02:35:36
Andrew Wilsonaspect if they're both enthusiastically graping each other they seem to be enthusiastically consenting so like how do you how do two people mutually they not under the
02:35:48
Miss Kenzieinfluence so what that obviously affects aspects of judgment you know just like um your capacity for for brain development yeah
02:35:58
Andrew Wilsonbut you're both under the same effect right I I I never said you were like willingly like I don't know about you but you do agree that it's very common
02:36:09
Miss Kenziefor people married unmarried everywhere between drunk all the time yeah and and they have sex when they're drunk in fact but I mean I'm sure you yourself would would have a line right yeah there would be there would be a line sure and where
02:36:22
Miss Kenziewhere is that line um you mean of when I wouldn't like if a chick was passed out or something crazy so if she were like falling down
02:36:31
Andrew Wilsonslurring her words couldn't hold like her phone m still fair game no I think that's a little much for me but but that might be a little more that might be a
02:36:42
Andrew Wilsonlittle much for me right I don't think that I could say that some guy graped her because she was really drunk and she said yes like I I don't know how does have the motor skills to to hold a phone
02:36:54
Andrew Wilsonbut well now you're you're you're changing it to like semi I didn't that's exactly what I described that's semiconscious at that point right that's exactly what I described you know she's dropping her phone she's slurring so
02:37:05
Andrew Wilsonthat's semiconscious at that point so semiconscious is not okay yeah she's basically half out of the bag yeah like she's gone and obious you're that faded if you're that faded sure right but if
02:37:18
Andrew Wilsonthe guy is that drunk and and she's that drunk I mean again like what are we classifying as drunk I guess whatever you just said motor skills gone whatever you're both that that smashed and then you go home and you bang each other from
02:37:30
Miss Kenzieyour view you're graping each other that that seems way more absurd to me I I don't know why I don't know why you like can't think that you can because
02:37:40
Andrew Wilsonwhat it does it because it infers that there's grape that's morally neutral and I think that grape would always necessarily have to be bad for me to last fight is
02:37:51
Miss KenzieGRA I I don't think that just because two people like are uh are not of the capacity to give informed and enthusiastic consent that that makes it
02:38:02
Andrew Wilsonmorally neutral well you have to tell me what makes it morally bad then because you still have not done that you just kind of keep on reverting to descriptors
02:38:12
Andrew Wilsonwithout giving me the actual this is actually bad this kind of grape because of H because of because of what because
02:38:23
Andrew Wilsonof what what actually makes it like if if both parties wake up in the morning mhm and they look over and go who are you and I don't know the other one's like I don't know either but we
02:38:33
SPEAKER_02definitely had sex last night and neither of them care right like what's the problem here who's been who's actually been VI like well how could that be a morally bad thing that you
02:38:45
Miss Kenziewake up next to a stranger and you can't remember you had sex but yet you don't care care no no no that definitely had to be grape on both parties right had to be I I think the
02:38:57
Miss Kenzieharm is again the fact that you would engage in intercourse with someone of of that capacity and both of you are in that capacity I know but again that that
02:39:07
Miss Kenziethis is um like an experience that is desired is is the male more culpable in this situation no if they're both equally
02:39:17
Andrew Wilsondrunk is the male more culpable um I don't know why he would be yeah I don't either that wouldn't even logically follow but this but this doesn't still you just gave me a descriptor you still didn't tell me
02:39:29
Miss Kenzieactually why it's bad like why is it actually bad I I did I think um essentially like your your psychological understanding of how you engage in sex
02:39:40
Miss Kenzieum can be bad and harmful like sure maybe in this one instance you didn't hurt someone but in another instance that could very well be the case that could be for anything literally anything
02:39:52
Andrew Wilsonlike what like just you pick up a chick and you have sex and your dick is too big this case didn't hurt anybody the next case it can hurt anybody that doesn't have to do with consent though yeah but the point is is like you can
02:40:04
Andrew Wilsonput that standard to almost anything you can put the standard of like uh well in this case it didn't do anything but next time it could possibly do something it also could possibly not ever do
02:40:15
Andrew Wilsonanything um so like that just seems so silly to me to me and not only that that really still doesn't answer to my question so let me let's try it an easier way okay and then can we take
02:40:26
Andrew Wilsonyeah yeah drunk so drunk guy right he's drunk but he's not like lost all fine motor skills but he's drunk okay she's drunk same thing hasn't lost all fine motor skills but she's definitely drunk
02:40:37
Andrew Wilsonokay they go home and they have sex mhm now they both graped each other still by your standard okay both of them did we agree on that okay okay do we agree on that they did grape each other mhm okay
02:40:49
Andrew WilsonI mean I guess it yeah sure so they wake up in the morning they remember all of it mhm okay which drunk people often remember what they did the night before that's not uncommon at all they remember all of it and the guy leans over and says see you later honey I'm heading off
02:41:02
Andrew Wilsonto work and gives her a kiss she goes okay baby that was a lot of fun last night and way to go what is actually the harm that happened there what is actually immoral
02:41:12
Miss Kenzieabout that um I'm sorry is this a couple yeah
02:41:21
Miss KenzieI I think the harm is that again um it it's kind of like about the experience that you had with your partner when it
02:41:30
Miss Kenziecomes to engaging in sex like you don't you don't really know in terms of your partner's capacity to consent and yeah but they both loved it they both claimed
02:41:41
Miss Kenzieto you this was great we had a great time it was fantastic well then I would say they weren't drunk they were drunk for sure like leg like Way Beyond the legal way going beyond the legal limit and they just remembered what happened
02:41:53
Andrew Wilsonthe night before as drunk people most often do um what would be the harm I
02:42:03
Miss Kenziemean again I I think the specific instance of the experience is the harm like so so let me maybe I can give you another analogy cuz maybe I'm not understanding what you want in terms of
02:42:14
Miss Kenzielike things that are like Kinks like BDSM I think there are people who really do like um engaging in that kind of of act when the act in itself is like
02:42:26
Miss Kenzieharming or hurting your partner and maybe your partner can like that and you can like that but I think there's an issue when hurting someone makes you feel good who got
02:42:39
Miss Kenziehurt um well again in terms of like even if your partner likes it you are physically hurting them in that capacity correct you haven't demonstrated that they're being hurt by in any capacity
02:42:51
Andrew WilsonI'm I'm saying with the example of BDSM well I'm saying in the this example inflicting physical pain examp of BDSM sure they like it I'll concede to any of the examples in BDSM that you're harming
02:43:02
Andrew Wilsonthem hurting them whatever even if they say they like it sure tie that into this though how is it that this would actually be demonstrably harmful or in some way not okay because the experience
02:43:15
Miss Kenziethat you're having with part your partner is incapacitated but you both wanted to be incapacitated that that's irrelevant it still you're by the way you're not
02:43:27
Andrew Wilsonincapacitated you are like can you sign contracts drunk um well legally no why well because there could be a threshold there where you're so far beyond it that it's
02:43:38
Andrew Wilsonyou're incapable of signing something why well yeah agree with you on that I agree with you on that contractable because your mental cognitive ability is completely impar
02:43:50
Miss Kenzieright so so you're having sex sex with someone who has um to where not only you have a mental cognitive impairment and they have a mental cognitive impairment sure and the psych the psychology of
02:44:03
Miss Kenzieenjoying that so [ __ ] shouldn't be able to have sex oh my God no I mean honestly [ __ ] shouldn't be allowed to have sex um of course but again I don't think comparing people who have um but
02:44:15
Miss Kenziethey have limited cognitive ability not to the same to to compare people with uh like limited mental ability to drunk people is is that's what your argument
02:44:26
Andrew Wilsonis limited cognitive ability yes yes limited cognitive ability limited cognitive ability it those are differentiated like how
02:44:39
Andrew Wilsonsomeone who has uh disabilities is not equal to someone who is drunk I didn't say disability I said they're [ __ ] that that would be a disability yeah yeah I'm not talking about like in a wheelchair I'm saying they have a
02:44:50
Miss Kenziemental cognitive disability kind of like they're drunk but they're not drunk but they still don't have great motor skills things like that and they have a lower that if we're talking about a spectrum
02:45:01
Miss Kenziethen like drunk is on this side and like limited mental uh cognition um again would be a spec Spectrum in terms of someone do they have the capacity to to
02:45:12
Miss Kenzieconsent someone who has a mental disability to where like they have the the age of someone who's like n or 10 then yes that would absolutely be an issue they're not
02:45:25
Miss Kenzieallowed to have sex with other people have the same mental capacity uh no I I would say that would be an issue as adults yeah even if they want to um yeah I mean if if they have the mental cognition of a nine-year-old
02:45:38
Brian Atlaswould you would you want nine-year-olds okay so how about they just have a mental capacity sorry can we yeah we'll uh we'll take a brief uh we'll do an intermission if you guys want to want to take smoke you want to use the bathroom
02:45:50
SPEAKER_03yes I'm sorry I no problem no problem at all yes got plent of debate left so I'm sorry we got we still got plenty of debate left yeah go for it well we got more we got more to do so okay take a
02:46:01
Brian Atlaslittle bathroom break I'll I'll talk to the all right I'll talk you guys okay have a smoke all right guys really quick if you guys are enjoying the stream if
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02:47:06
Brian Atlasjust tuning in Andrew went for a quick smoke break we're doing the bathroom break but we're going to get into some other topics we're going to hit we're going to finish up on feminism we might hit a bit of trump stuff maybe some uh
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02:48:59
Brian Atlasyou guys a bit about our schedule for the rest of the week so tomorrow we have our dating talk Andrew will be here for the dating talk and then we have a debate scheduled for Monday a debate scheduled for Tuesday and a debate scheduled for Wednesday all of those
02:49:12
Brian Atlaswith uh Andrew Wilson one of those is going to be a 2v2 so it's going to be me and Andrew and then it's going to be well 2v2 and then I'm trying to think what else we have on the schedule it should be around the same time between
02:49:24
Brian Atlastypically our start time is anticipated to be probably around 4 p.m. Pacific time for those debates that are scheduled Monday Tuesday and Wednesday so be sure to tune into those we have
02:49:35
Brian AtlasI'm going to read a couple chats here Josh Brooks uh okay Josh that's an interesting one uh thank you for that uh let's see we have Josh Brooks here for
02:49:46
Brian AtlasAndrews pineapples thank you Josh Brooks for the Super Chat appreciate it we have Fifi thank you for the Super Chat I do appreciate it thank
02:49:56
Brian Atlasyou very much and then we have uh Spyro thank you for that appreciate the uh Super Chat there I'm going to leave this one up because uh I don't know if you
02:50:07
Brian Atlasguys notice it's over here I don't if you guys notice the green screen is butchering do you want a a uh a what's
02:50:17
Brian Atlasit called energy drink are you talking me yeah do you want an energy drink no thank you this okay sure uh J we have like a green
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Brian Atlasscreen issue going on here so after the show uh Blake leave this one so I can try to fix it uh not sure what's going on bit rage Andrew never falters on point prepared AF thank you uh bit point
02:50:39
Brian Atlasfor that do appreciate your Super Chat Andrew is about to walk up here in just a moment
02:50:47
Brian Atlashe he just he just had a mororo red cigarette uh welcome
02:50:56
Brian Atlasback Kenzie so Kenzie you do uh I'll just uh you do like twitch or not twitch Tik Tok debates