1v1 DEBATE: Andrew Wilson vs. Marxist Anti-Trump Feminist | Whatever Debates #11
Date: 2025-03-16
Duration: 7h 34m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_04Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Miss Kenzie(guest)
Key Moments
00:02:09
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Miss Kenzie on feminism
00:35:40
Key MomentAndrew's slavery hypothetical: if all men decided to enslave women, women could not resist
02:07:00
ControversyAndrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape.
03:17:00
Key MomentAndrew cites USSR: fully legal abortion led to 3 abortions per 1 live birth
04:58:20
Key MomentAndrew presses Kenzie on body count. She repeatedly refuses. 'If it doesn't matter why won't you tell?'
06:31:40
Key MomentKenzie's TikTok: Whatever deliberately books unprepared women against prepared conservatives to humiliate them
Topics Discussed
00:07:00
Feminism vs Marxism
Andrew: first-wave feminism fed women into capitalism, contradicting Marxism. Kenzie distinguishes liberal from Marxist feminism.
00:35:00
Force Doctrine
Andrew: men's biological physical superiority = monopoly on force. Slavery hypothetical.
02:07:00
Sexual Consent
Andrew admits waking wife with sex. Kenzie classifies as rape under FRIES model. Both agree holding down = rape.
03:05:00
Abortion
Kenzie: no restrictions all 9 months. Andrew cites USSR 3:1 abortion ratio. Semantic bait-and-switch debate.
04:05:00
Purity Culture and Virginity
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Kenzie refuses to disclose body count.
06:26:40
Whatever Podcast Misogyny TikTok
Brian plays Kenzie's TikTok calling Whatever a misogynistic abuse space. Brian refutes: 15% OF guests, women reach out.
07:17:30
Closing Statements
Andrew: proprietary definitions. Kenzie: precise terminology, restorative justice.
Transcript
Page 1 of 9
00:00:04
Brian Atlaswelcome to the special debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from Santa Barbara California I am your host and moderator Brian Atlas a few quick announcements before the show
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Brian AtlasMark Metro mat thank you for the gifted 20 memberships very much appreciate it all right guys so uh without further Ado I'm going to introduce our two Debaters
00:02:09
Brian AtlasI'm joined today by Andrew Wilson he's the host of The Crucible he's a political commentator also joining us today is Miss Kenzie as she goes online
00:02:19
Brian Atlasshe is a Marxist feminist debater we have a few topics and prompts for today but first you will each have a 5 minute opening statement and then the rest of
00:02:30
Brian Atlasthe show will just be open conversation uh with there going to be some prompt changes and breaks for messages from the audience now we're going to do a coin flip to determine who
00:02:42
Brian Atlasgets to pick whether they go first or second for the opener if you can pull that up uh so Kenzie you get to call it heads or tails uh
00:02:52
Brian Atlasheads okay tail so Andrew uh do you want to go first or second for the opener I'll go second second okay Kenzie uh why don't uh you go ahead and go first with your opening
00:03:04
Brian Atlasstatement um so are we still doing like the statement in terms of like what our world viiew is uh generalized opening statement and then I think we can incorporate the world view into the
00:03:15
Miss Kenzieopening statement okay yeah um my name is Miss Kenzie I'm a Tik Tok feminist Marxist debater uh my opening statement is essentially a feminist and Marxist critique on certain oppressive systems
00:03:28
Miss Kenziethat we see not only global but specifically in the United States uh how they negatively affect uh women relationships uh society as a whole uh
00:03:39
Miss Kenzieand the philosophy into which uh how we should organize as a society into what um our ultimate goal is okay Andrew what about you uh yeah so
00:03:52
Andrew Wilsonthat was a really quick opening statement do you do you want more time or uh no or anything else okay go ahead I'm ready to discuss stuff all all right well my name is Andrew Wilson and uh you could call me a Christian populist you
00:04:04
Andrew Wilsonmight refer to that as like Christian nationalist maybe though I do prefer the term populist um My overall Viewpoint is based around objective morality things like this things that aren't we not
00:04:17
Andrew Wilsonreally on topic I guess for the purpose of this debate um I'm against Marxism definitely against feminism against all waves of feminism so I'm not one of these people who thought second wave third wave fourth wave or perhaps we're
00:04:30
Andrew Wilsonin fifth wave now it's not decided I don't think any of them are good and uh the reason that I don't I'll incorporate in my arguments and mixture of force Doctrine the understanding of the Dynamics between men and women the
00:04:41
Andrew Wilsonhistorical perspective my I have a criticism against yours uh because you're basing your worldview on standpoint Theory essentially and uh I'm
00:04:51
Andrew Wilsongoing to critique that as well so overall um that's kind of what my worldview is if you wanted to dive in a little deeper uh into that I would say
00:05:02
Andrew Wilsonuh right-wing conservative from your perspective likely bordering on authoritarianism um so I am definitely here to oppress your views definitely here to oppress your
00:05:16
Andrew Wilsonviews Cru and unfair treatment huh that's right definitely here to oppress your views so uh that's kind of my worldview so with that I'm actually happy to just kind of dive right into the debate I think one thing we we were
00:05:28
Brian Atlasgoing to do first before we get into the open portion of the conversation was just defining a few terms and clearing those up so because we are discussing
00:05:38
Brian Atlasfeminism I think just let's jumping off point here uh I guess Define what that is Kenzie do you have a definition for what feminism is uh yeah the movement to
00:05:47
Miss Kenzieend sexist oppression and sexism okay all right and how would you define sexism uh biases towards uh one specific gender or sex okay gotcha and then you
00:06:00
Brian Atlasalso mentioned the term oppression how do you Define oppression uh cruel or cruel and unfair treatment okay got it Andrew do you agree with these definitions or would you like to give your own yeah so to me when I say
00:06:12
Andrew Wilsonfeminism I mean a movement towards egalitarianism which is trying to dism dismantle patriarchal systems okay so that's what I'm referencing when I say
00:06:21
Andrew Wilsonthat does that sound reasonable to you sure okay so we can kind of agree then to that
00:06:31
Miss Kenziedefinition of feminism and then uh oppression would you just consider that basic power dynamics um yeah I mean obviously like cruel or unfair treatment can be through
00:06:43
Andrew Wilsonlaws can be through certain uh means of production what view are you viewing for uh the accounting of things like cruelty like utilitarian or something like that
00:06:54
Miss KenzieI mean I I don't like to subscribe necessarily to one position uh it depends but uh utilitarian and and deontological positions you have a mixture of them yeah okay so like maybe
00:07:05
Andrew Wilsonthreshold sure okay like threshold deontology something like that okay I mean it would it would depend on the the topic gotcha okay so cruel and unusual
00:07:20
Andrew Wilsonpunishment all right I think we got I think we got a lot of the semantic if you don't mind if we have to stop from time to time to clear up semantics one thing really hate is equivocation the idea that we speak past each other
00:07:33
Andrew Wilsonbecause we're talking about two different things sure so no I think it's important to communicate the concept you're trying to convey yeah yeah so kind of to start with I guess um I can kind of open up to get this thing moving
00:07:44
Andrew Wilsonso I want to start with the idea of how feminism and Marxism aren't contrary to each other so I've read a lot of of marxist feminist literature especially
00:07:56
Andrew Wilsonfrom duvah um and they do actually seem uh to be a contradiction so through the first wave feminism to modernity uh you have single-handedly feminism has single-handedly put more
00:08:08
Andrew Wilsonwomen in the hands of Rich industrialists than any other single movement which has ever existed Rich capitalist industrialists are now basically in charge of women uh women are part of the market Workforce Now
00:08:20
Andrew Wilsonthey never work as part of the market Workforce they have now accured almost as much debt in 100 years as men which is incredible I mean it's incredible there's only a few um one of the I mean
00:08:33
Andrew Wilsonone of the big ones is student loans but I mean they're almost on point with everything else there's very very few um market indicators where they hold significantly less debt than men do uh from my understanding the only place
00:08:45
Andrew Wilsonwhere women do hold more debt is student loans men men hold more in credit cards and it's true well credit cards it could be that we don't know because we get it from the credit card reporting agency
00:08:56
Andrew Wilsonbut it's like it's like a 2% margin so so maybe maybe they hold less maybe they hold I I'm not sure but it's not significant like none of these thresholds I look at look very
00:09:07
Andrew Wilsonsignificant to me so what I'm trying to figure out is Marxism and maybe we can clear up the semantic here too but Marxism is looking for a stateless
00:09:17
Andrew Wilsonsociety where yeah where capitalism is gone right so if capitalism is gone how is feeding Millions upon millions of women
00:09:27
Miss Kenzieto the capitalist machine via feminism a good idea for Marxism that's just it makes no sense to me well I mean if we're talking about first W feminism I don't like to necessarily Define
00:09:38
Miss Kenziefeminism um based on its wave because I think it ignores certain sexs within feminism that are outside of that as well as kind of puts it in a western purview uh but I I will say Obviously
00:09:50
Miss Kenziethere are different uh modes of feminism that we've seen in place throughout history and I would just say this was liberal feminism which obviously is towards the movement of uh upward mobility within
00:10:02
Andrew Wilsoncapitalism yeah but why would you support that I I wouldn't I I would be against the then how are you then how are you a feminist well what kind of feminist are you I'm Marxist intersectional feminist okay yeah
00:10:13
Miss KenzieMarxist intersectional but right you did rely on first wave second wave third wave fourth wave feminism yeah so there is progression obviously over time um I'm sure you have uh I I know I've heard
00:10:26
Miss Kenzieyou say that with your Christian populism your plan is three 300 years so obviously there's going to be different steps that you take over time I think when it comes to uh if we're going to talk about liberal feminism and women
00:10:37
Miss Kenzieentering the market when it comes to economic work is that one of the ways we see that women have faced oppression or marginalization um or subjugation whatever term you want to use uh is
00:10:50
Andrew Wilsonobviously patriarchy's construction of dependency on men so but they were more liberated so men held the debt not women so I would argue immediately yeah no
00:11:02
Andrew Wilsonproblem I would argue immediately that because women now hold so much debt they're less liberated than they ever have been at least in this nation so um I would point you to things
00:11:14
Andrew Wilsonlike before they had the right to vote the 19th Amendment they were able to pass the 18th amendment that was literally due to the women's temperance movement and they did not have the right to vote at that time but they had so
00:11:25
Andrew Wilsonmuch moral political power uh that they were able to to past that so they they definitely had political power and they had no debt I don't see how this is I don't think a lot of people had debt during that time yeah men had a lot of
00:11:38
Miss Kenziedebt me I mean they had all indivual debt they had all the debt um all of it like 1 to 2% maybe for women sure so I I mean if we're talking about like do I think debt is a good thing no that would
00:11:49
Miss Kenziebe a critique against capitalism the critique that with feminism in that specific uh instance that you've given is
00:12:00
Miss Kenziethat the only way to get access to uh the material Goods of life is is obviously through money and so when women are able to participate in the
00:12:10
Miss Kenziemarket then they are dependent on men um in order to get to get housing to get food to get shelter so on and so forth or um you know they're paid very low
00:12:22
Miss Kenziewages and so I think expanding that market then creates more individual opportunities to where you don't have to get married uh to where you can have more autonomy in your choice yeah but this is really a
00:12:33
Andrew Wilsonweird this is a very odd position that I don't think Stacks up very well so if the if the idea is women need to be able to gain more materialism that is in conflict with
00:12:45
Andrew WilsonMarxism which is say I agree I'm saying that's under capitalism that yeah but we live in capitalism sure and we did then I I understand that so so the thing is is like it seems very contradictory to
00:12:56
Andrew Wilsonme to say well okay access to material hold sorry sorry what's what's going on I was trying to turn off the that's my okay I apologize
00:13:07
Andrew Wilsonproblem we have a new yeah no problem okay sorry go ahead go ahead just it so it's it's just really bizarre to me when you say women need to be able to access
00:13:16
Andrew Wilsonmaterialism in order to be less oppressed when now women are they have by the way I mean they their student loan debt alone is insane um they're they're now under the Yoke of capital
00:13:29
Andrew WilsonCapal ISM more significantly than they ever have been because of this acement of debt so it seems like just feeding them into the system while calling it Liberation when Rich industrialists owned them then and own them now so I
00:13:41
Miss Kenziemean it's a more intersectional look at that like I do agree with you that capitalism in itself and like the concept of debt is oppressive so yes you are correct when when you say that assessment but if we're looking at the intersection what's the alternative
00:13:54
Andrew Wilsonunder capitalism for women to be dependent on access to the basic materials seems far in way to me to be a way better system if you wanted to actually Institute Marxism so I'll
00:14:05
Andrew Wilsonexplain why if you were to use the accelerationist argument which it sounds like you're trying to do move into accelerationism um that what we would just have fascism like that's that's
00:14:17
Andrew Wilsonwhat we usually end up with is sorry right-wing authoritarianism well I I know what you mean by fascism can you repeat your point though yeah so if the idea is women need to be moved into the the rich industrialist market for some
00:14:29
Andrew Wilsonreason because it's more liberating for them to have more materialism which it seems to be completely the opposite because more opportunity for what though to ingratiate more
00:14:39
Miss Kenziematerialism uh no I would even just say like the standard means of living materialism I I I don't know like we need housing right is that materialism
00:14:50
Andrew WilsonYeah well yeah it is like depending on the size of the house and I mean so when you say housing what does that Encompass like a a commi block
00:14:59
Miss Kenzielike a a stone commi block where like we can agree like on what basic necessities humans need in order to function within society and I would say housing would be
00:15:09
Andrew Wilsondefinitely sure but how big um I I I think it would depend obviously based on need yeah right so so if it's if it's moving off of need right
00:15:20
Andrew WilsonI could I would say that people need very little space okay right sure so if that if this is the case though introducing women into the capitalist Market
00:15:29
Andrew Wilsonright where Now Rich industrialists own their labor which they do in order to give them the right to vote about stuff that's kind of meaningless ultimately towards towards
00:15:41
Miss Kenziethemselves what was the point of that for Marxism that's it's totally counter I'm not saying it's a it's a movement towards Marxism I'm saying that that's obviously like a liberal feminist
00:15:52
Miss Kenziemovement which is upward mobility within capitalism so that you can have access to so you don't support feminism I don't support liberal feminism but that's the only type of feminism we've we've had
00:16:04
Miss Kenziehere um in terms of certain movements sure I guess it would depend on how you classify certain uh movements but when we're talking about like capitalist critique those who think that women
00:16:15
Miss Kenziewould find uh Liberation um having the same access to capitalist opportunities as men is is a liberal feminist idea but
00:16:25
Andrew Wilsonwhich well I don't understand then so do you support Western feminism or not um I I don't if if you want to label it as that Western feminism like well
00:16:37
Andrew Wilsonokay so the only feminism that I can point to is either the feminism here or we can talk about communist feminism but that was liberalized as well I disagree I think we can see like uh when the
00:16:49
Miss KenzieBlack Panthers um in the 60s and 70s that's where womanism was born out of which is also Marxist theory yeah sure but it was also part of a femin
00:16:59
Andrew Wilsonmovement the sexual Liberation was a big part of what was going on in the' 60s with black panther and female Liberation too so I'm just curious though first
00:17:08
Miss Kenziewave feminism you agree essentially fed all women into this massive capitalist machine whereas they did not have to participate in it before again like I I
00:17:19
Miss Kenziethink that's a really exclusionary idea of first wave feminism because there were also like uh feminists who were abolitionists there were also feminists who were poor who wanted uh more rights
00:17:31
Miss Kenziefor the working class and those were kind of ignored so I think if you want to label uh first W feminism as essentially the suffer jet movement um
00:17:41
Miss Kenzieand the means to enter capitalist uh I I don't think that's all-encompassing of feminism first W feminism is definitely responsible for Millions upon Millions
00:17:54
Andrew Wilsonupon millions of women entering into the workforce under Rich capitalist industrialists single-handedly responsible for that okay what else would there what else would it be that would be responsible for that I think
00:18:06
Miss Kenziethat's obviously what's at the the Forefront but there are other sects of feminism that we're dealing with abolition we're dealing with with they were never they never had any political
00:18:16
Andrew Wilsonpower okay I mean we had the uh 192 Lawrence textile strike which was about working conditions yeah but feminists have always moved towards working but this is the problem again working
00:18:27
Andrew Wilsonconditions for what to capitalism the work at capitalist plants I I guess I'm not sure like what what your overarching question my overarching point is why would you support first if you don't
00:18:38
Andrew Wilsonsupport first wave feminism because it fed Millions upon millions of women into the pocket in the pocket of Rich industrialists which it did and you agree it did and the second wave did and
00:18:50
Andrew Wilsonthe third wave and now even the fourth wave none of these feminist waves are anti- capitalists no I agree so you don't support any of that though right if we're going to have a critique of
00:19:01
Miss Kenziecapitalism I think we can have ways that we can see how women can be more liberated not critiquing capitalism I'm critiquing the view of feminism right but obviously if we're going to talk about capitalism that those are
00:19:14
Miss Kenzieintertwined so if we're not going to abolish the system how can women participate within capitalism that would give them opportunity or more Liberation I agree with you liation is not possible
00:19:25
Andrew Wilsonunder capitalism well I would argue then that if this is the case you're looking for more Liberation I would say that they're more liberated when they can't ACR debt and they couldn't acre debt
00:19:36
Andrew Wilsononly the man could ACR debt and only the man who was married philosophy then are men oppressed yes okay yes men are very okay then then I guess we don't disagree so I
00:19:47
Andrew Wilsongot to ask I got to ask um I wouldn't say for the same reasons you would but the question becomes is it the case that you think that women are more or less oppressed by cap ISM now than they were
00:19:59
Miss Kenziewhen they were dependent on their husbands um well obviously capitalism has taken different form uh so it it would depend on essentially what metric we're evaluating they have more access
00:20:12
Miss Kenzieto education which I would see would be less oppressive obviously the stressors of more oppressive education's oppressive way more oppressive to women well educated what what's the what's the only type of debt women have that
00:20:24
Andrew Wilsonoutnumbers men I again that's just because of just answer the question student so so the idea of the education right which is mostly the it's not like it's most of these are stem degrees
00:20:37
Miss Kenziethey're not I mean if education were free would you say that they're being oppressed education is free up until College age I know I'm I'm just asking are we talking about the idea of Education itself or the fact that it's
00:20:48
Miss Kenzieso expensive no we're talking about Liberation from oppression and so what I'm arguing to you so when you say education is oppressive is that because under capitalis is M of the cost that
00:21:00
Andrew Wilsonobviously debt is burdensome or just a woman being educated is oppressive now I would say that the acement of student debt mostly being in the hands of women
00:21:12
Andrew Wilsonhas done more to oppress them than if they had not gone to college in the first place then if that if that had been barred that's not my question what okay but what's your question then my question is you're not saying education
00:21:25
Miss Kenzieis oppressive you're saying either going into debt or the uh Society making a profit off education obviously puts burdens on the person who's taking loans out yes we don't disagree with that I I
00:21:37
Andrew Wilsondon't disagree but why are we selecting for that then what do you mean well I mean you say that women need to be educated institutions are going to require capital in order to educate so
00:21:46
Miss Kenzieright so if again we're going to um e education has definitely benefited women in terms of having the
00:21:56
Miss Kenzieequal access to capitalism to to certain aspects of society uh that would give them more opportunity and uh more identity it has
00:22:08
Andrew Wilsonliterally LED them to being Pawns in capitalism y just like men yeah so the thing is is I mean if you think how is that but how is that less or more less oppressive it's way more oppressive so I
00:22:20
Andrew Wilsonthis is what I I say choice and individuality so if we're talking about certain social ideas yeah let's walk through it logically right so we start start with women can't acrw no debt only their husbands can acrw debt that's it
00:22:33
Andrew Wilsononly the husbands were able to acrew debt but then they're educated correct I no they could still be educated how they would go to school where well they had public school which available by the way women have
00:22:45
Andrew Wilsonalways done better in public school and then College was also available to them most of your feminist first W feminist leaders went to school they went to college right but but College was also free then no it wasn't free yeah it was
00:22:55
Miss Kenziewhere in the United States where like what specific College I think uh Berkeley was free up until the 60s until uh okay so when you're talking about college
00:23:07
Andrew Wilsonfees it's important to understand that if it is the case that you want everybody to do a thing you're going to have to have a lot of that thing for them to be able to do it so when you're talking about education specifically it used to be about rewarding the best and
00:23:19
Andrew Wilsonbrightest it is not about rewarding the best and brightest now there's lots and lots and lots of people who go and get a college degree and it's the equivalent of like a 10th grade education nth grade educ so if that's the case right all we're
00:23:31
Andrew Wilsondoing really is just lowering the standard anyway right lowering the standard and then telling women that they need to go and use their birthing years in college which makes no sense to me it's very silly you take the reproductive years you say go spend the
00:23:44
Miss Kenziereproductive years in school so that you can be part of this capitalist machine that's very strange to me that that's your advocation a Marxist feminist um I mean obviously if we're
00:23:55
Miss Kenzietalking about the ideal situation thenen women would have access to education without having to go into debt that's not well okay how what do
00:24:06
Miss Kenzieyou mean how yeah how so we should pay for for everybody's College well obviously if we're going to live under a capitalist Society like this at the
00:24:16
Miss Kenziecenter of that is going to be profit so I I I just think that's an ineffective way to organize Society because then it's obviously putting
00:24:27
Andrew Wilsonprofit over people so we this is circular now so we start with capitalism is bad M liberate women so they can participate in capitalism capitalism's bad liberate women so that they can become part of the capitalist machine no so if we're
00:24:40
Miss Kenziegoing to talk about how women can have more opportunity and indivi individuality over cap in capitalism that's one argument and then talking about how women can be fully liberated from the
00:24:51
Andrew Wilsonconstraints of capitalism is a different argument well okay let's talk if you want to dice them up I'm willing to like dice arguments up as small as you want to make them or as large as you want to make them so we can go as granular as
00:25:03
Miss Kenziewant I'm just saying it's two different Lanes you be to can be combining it as one okay but what's the goal of Marxism stateless society right yeah how is I
00:25:14
Andrew Wilsonstill don't understand how throwing women into the big capitalist machine as a form of Liberation helps get us to that it doesn't then why would you I
00:25:25
Miss Kenziestill then I still confused why you support those things um um I mean I don't support necessarily like what you're specifically saying if if I had my like how do we transition from
00:25:36
Miss Kenziecapitalism to Communism is is a different uh argument than how can women uh suffer less oppression under capitalism yeah but if you don't agree with those things and first wave
00:25:48
Miss Kenziefeminism was about Liberation to participate in capitalism then you don't support first wave feminism I again I don't like classifying feminism in terms of those waves because it just reduces it down to the singular idea where there
00:26:00
Andrew Wilsonare multiple sects of ideas so yes if you want me to say I don't agree I don't what are the prominent ideas then sure the prominent ideas were definitely I don't agree yeah so then you want me to say so then I don't know that you're a
00:26:12
Miss Kenziefeminist at all just a Marxist well I mean have you heard of turfs yeah uh would you say that's a form of feminism it's very traditional form of feminism yeah I'm not a Turf so does that mean
00:26:22
Andrew WilsonI'm not a feminist I I feel this is like no true Scotsman fallacy no I well I have to say there are prominent sex of feminism right yeah you have radical
00:26:34
Miss Kenziefeminism liberal feminism intersectional Marx Marxist yeah so I'm saying all of them are basing it around the liberation of women just the different ideas around the basis of liberation of women there's
00:26:46
Andrew Wilsoncapitalism which I'm sure we could Define and say there's different capitalism yeah so first wave feminism definitely wanted to liberate women so that they could have their own assets
00:26:56
Miss Kenzieand go to work correct there's no if answer butts about that I I I mean go to work like women have always worked especially poor and uh women of color so
00:27:08
Miss KenzieI think like going to work is kind of uh maybe like a white- centered notion uh I I will acknowledge that I think in the early 1900s we had about 20% of women in
00:27:17
Miss Kenziethe workforce and then by like 1950 I think it was close to 50 mhm um especially you had the postor War II people who were staying in the workforce sure exactly but depend you're counting
00:27:28
Andrew Wilsonas well definitely first W feminism was responsible for this so the thing is is I I guess when you're talking about Marxist feminism specifically you would have to kind of hate first- W feminism
00:27:41
Miss Kenziebecause it in a lot of Notions I do because I do think it ignored the material conditions of uh poor women women of color so yeah I don't disagree okay just I'm sure you you support
00:27:51
Miss Kenziecapitalism right mhm do you like social democracy uh well I'm not sure that that's contingent on capitalism that is a capitalist uh mode just like a a la Fair uh free market would be
00:28:04
Miss Kenziethere's different ways that capitalism can be structured and you can agree with one yeah but capitalism is an economic system it's not as much of a as I'm just showing how an idea can have different theory behind it yeah I'm not but I'm
00:28:17
Miss Kenzienot disputing that I'm talking about the prominence of the ideas themselves sure I guess if I must not have understood no I I don't agree with some of the um modes that uh liberal feminism or first
00:28:29
Andrew WilsonW feminism if you as you've called it have used so then wouldn't you agree with me then that it actually would have been more liberating for women to not have participated in first- wave feminism but instead relied on their
00:28:41
Andrew Wilsonhusbands wouldn't that have actually been more liberating than sacrificing them to the sacrificial lamb of capitalism which is worse I don't know
00:28:53
Andrew Wilsonum I I there there's just so many metrics that you can evaluate um when it well this is the metric we're evaluating so the metric we're evaluating is my argument is if
00:29:04
Andrew Wilsonwomen are dependent on their husbands and acre no debt only the husband can acre debt but women can still own assets which they could and they can still own property which they could even if they were married right but you're forcing a woman to link arms with a man so if
00:29:17
Miss Kenzieshe's single does she have access to these things toing her to work does she have these things yeah they still yes of course how would you have these things how would they not have them they were able to own property even
00:29:30
Miss Kenzieunmarried um that's always been the history of the United States right but obviously then you would need to be in the workforce correct because you need to purchase it no you wouldn't need to purchase it often times your your father
00:29:40
Andrew Wilsonwould give it to you oh so just through again like generational wealth which which by the way first W feminism destroyed a lot of that too a lot of cross-generational wealth but women
00:29:51
Andrew Wilsoncould own property sure um I mean I I would say like why why would I have have to pick one uh because your choice is either you
00:30:03
Andrew Wilsongo to work right you're either want equality or you don't want equality so if the idea is I want equality and that's I I think it would be more beneficial for women not to be dependent
00:30:13
Miss Kenzieon men and to have more to work within the capitalist system uh yes why because they would have more control uh autonomy and
00:30:24
Andrew Wilsonidentity they don't seem to have more control over either of or any of those things example uh the identity of woman now in modernity is in question period
00:30:35
Miss Kenziewhat do you mean what is a woman oh we're going there now well you just said women would have more identity because identity in terms of if you're going to
00:30:45
Miss Kenziebe dependent on um a husband then your your labor uh is predetermined for you your identity in terms of being a wife and mother is predetermined for you yeah
00:30:56
Andrew Wilsonbut the beneficiaries of that is that your crew of debt is also non-existent and so you can never be it's nonexist because your husband has it as well so I mean there is still capitalistic thre you were not ever responsible for your
00:31:08
Miss Kenziehusband's debt I but you still suffer the outcomes if it doesn't work out right yeah but you suffer the outcomes of that now under Capal you would have more control and autonomy right like
00:31:20
Miss Kenzieyou're your own seing ship or you're you're just kind of a passenger on the Titanic like you use these words these kind of buzzword right uh you say they have more autonomy how do women have
00:31:30
Miss Kenziemore autonomy self-determination through Choice what choices which ones uh essentially how they want to experience their life do they want to get married do they want to have children they had the option to do that before they didn't
00:31:43
Andrew Wilsonhave to get married most of the time women who didn't get married stayed at home with their parents by the way right now most women who don't get married they often stay at home with their parents not a lot has changed in that department I mean I I I haven't read any
00:31:55
Miss Kenziestatistics that women who don't get married just stay home with their parents yes it's often the case that women who do not get married stay at home with their parents uh yeah it's often it was often true with men I think
00:32:08
Andrew Wilsonsingle women home purchases are starting to outpace men it's true yeah yeah but it is they're getting their own they're getting their own house sometimes sometimes but you got to
00:32:19
Miss Kenzieremember now children are staying at home with their parents longer than so obviously like the conditions that comes to capitalism now is different than it was you know in the 1900s yeah so I mean the thing is is that I don't see how women
00:32:32
Andrew Wilsonactually have any more of these things I don't see how they have any more autonomy I don't see how they have any more actual Choice it just seems like an illusion of choice um I would agree with you there
00:32:44
Andrew Wilsonis some oppression within that choice but I do think the choice is more okay and it's worth it to have this limited amount of autonomy in order to grind yourself in the capitalist system like if you were to ask the average
00:32:55
Andrew Wilsonwoman if you were to go back in time m hypothetically and you were to sit down with first wave feminist okay uh who couldn't seem to get first wve feminism passed any other way than an amendment
00:33:07
Andrew Wilsonbecause women were voting it down all over the place the question becomes if you ask them if we fast forwarded this to 100 years I just want to let you know that your children will be living at
00:33:18
Andrew Wilsonhome with you until they're 25 uh you will be you will have access to college but you'll have crushing debt and chances are your marriage is going to fail chance are really good that your marriage is going to fail over 50%
00:33:31
Andrew Wilsonperhaps that your marriage is going to fail um but you'll have a little tiny bit more autonomy but I won't even be able to exactly tell you how you have more of it do you think that they would
00:33:42
Andrew Wilsongo for that deal or if you said hang on or if you said to them if you don't do this your husbands will acrew all debt you'll never have to worry about it again and you can still make moral claims and they'll be super effective
00:33:54
Miss Kenziejust like the temperance movement was because now you're not political Pawns um I mean I think you're kind of constructing the options in a way
00:34:06
Miss Kenziethat would be beneficial to to a specific narrative um I think I have cleared how you have autonomy like would you want men to be dependent on women in and have women be the predominant mode
00:34:18
Andrew Wilsonof production under capitalism I don't think it's possible but would you want that well I I couldn't want a thing I don't think is possible why because it's not possible well I mean why is it not possible it's not possible because women are not
00:34:31
Andrew Wilsoncapable of doing the same types of things that men are capable of doing such as inside of society enforcement enforcement M so like police and not
00:34:40
Andrew Wilsonmilitary military military police speci I don't think men really are capable of that I mean that men have gone and fought Global Wars time and time again
00:34:52
Miss Kenzieand one yeah and what outcomes do they have they win the war uh they they suffer severe PST they have a hard time integrating into society I mean that
00:35:03
Andrew Wilsondoesn't seem like a natural condition for for men to to be subjected to there can be symptoms of violence but remember not everybody gets P PTSD even combat veterans a lot of them don't have PTSD
00:35:14
Andrew Wilsonsome get PTSD right but not only that that's a coping mechanism it's going to be individualistic men are definitely capable of exem an outcome of EXT of being exposed to extreme violence I I
00:35:25
Andrew Wilsoncould say that about about women you can but the problem when it comes down to enforcement is that women can't do enforcement what do you mean so I'll give you the um the easy hypothetical
00:35:37
Andrew Wilsonokay if all men tomorrow decide that women in the United States are slaves are women in the United States [Music]
00:35:44
Miss Kenzieslaves um no no no why wouldn't they be I think it would be a I mean how could how could women how could women stop it
00:35:55
Miss KenzieI mean it would just depend essentially on um like access to resources yeah men have the access to all the resources because they made you slaves well
00:36:06
Andrew Wilsonyou're like that's how women could like stop it it would just be a fight over resources how come women can't stop it in Islamic Nations and when they just go okay you're all obviously in Islamic
00:36:17
Andrew WilsonNations they don't have access to specific resources nobody has access to resources if men don't don't allow access to those resources nobody because men have a monopoly on Force that's
00:36:29
Andrew Wilsonfeminist Theory feminists understand even Marxist feminists know this that men have a monopoly on Force so in other words if men collectively under patriarchy I agree no under any AR Archy they're going to need to have men as
00:36:42
Andrew Wilsontheir Monopoly on Force I'll give you an example if tomorrow uh men decided to enslave all women all women would be enslaved however if tomorrow all women decided to enslave all men they do not
00:36:54
Miss Kenziehave the force Doctrine and requisite necessary to do so they could not do it they just couldn't do it within any context no so if women had access to all the drones if women
00:37:06
Miss Kenziehad access to all the Water Supplies if women had access sorry women had access to I mean women can have the capacity to repair I don't understand like they okay so here's what I would
00:37:19
Andrew Wilsonsay let's let's do this experiment this way if women had access to all of the firearms on Earth that exist okay and every weapon which exists and they have access to all of that they still don't
00:37:32
Miss Kenziehave the requisite brute force that would be necessary to keep men under control they just wouldn't it wouldn't be possible to do long term what do you mean shortterm what do you mean like by brute force that they just be able to pull the
00:37:45
Miss Kenzietrigger men no that men are much much much stronger and that guns guns are only an equalizer until men take your guns right and obviously they would have to get close enough but I mean I don't care how strong you are if you don't
00:37:56
Andrew Wilsonhave water and food what you simple then do you think that if you if you were the head of a prison would you rather have all male or all female guards if you were dealing with dangerous prisoners even if both had access to
00:38:08
Miss Kenzieguns um I mean I guess it would depend what the what the goal is I think to keep the prisoners who are dangerous under control I mean I think women can make really great police officers because
00:38:20
Miss Kenziethey are less likely to use excessive force they're more likely to uh deescalate or men are more likely to escalate more likely to get disarmed more likely to get beaten up more likely to accidentally shoot a suspect they're
00:38:32
Andrew Wilsonmore likely to do all sorts of things to the contrary as well but there's also way fewer females who are in the police force because they can't meet the minimum requirements which are necessary to be a cop they can't meet the
00:38:45
Andrew Wilsonnecessary minimum physical requirements same thing in the military they can't meet the necessary minimum physical requirements to be in the Infantry most women can't do it right so men have a monopoly on force and because of force
00:38:55
Andrew WilsonDoctrine this ends up coming down to this idea if it is the case you say that women can do anything that men can do I counter this by saying they cannot they
00:39:05
Andrew Wilsoncannot do enforcement this is uniquely a male thing there are some women who can be introduced who can meet these standards but on average they can't well I think the you know if um we're like to
00:39:17
Miss Kenziekind of bring it to an analogy um you know if the the fence is 6 ft tall and most women are 5'8 then yeah of course they're not going to be able to meet that standard so is the
00:39:29
Miss Kenziestandard just specific to certain male criteria that well it would be the criteria of you need to handle a male so if you're a female police officer you need to be able to handle a
00:39:40
Miss Kenziemale right um yeah but obviously like you have tools to Aid in that that's what I'm saying like just because women aren't meeting these criteria you get close to a male when you're a police
00:39:51
Andrew Wilsonofficer as a female in order to put like handcuffs on them stuff like that yeah but you have like pepper St and stun guns yeah and routinely women get disarmed and they're routinely
00:40:00
Andrew Wilsonoverpowered by suspects routinely happens often and sure and Men often use excessive force and then they're sued yeah maybe people when you say men use excessive force you're just
00:40:13
Andrew Wilsondemonstrating my point that men have a monopoly on Force yes maybe it's excessive but they're capable of using it use Force sure no no no they're just better at using Force CU they're much stronger they're much stronger they have
00:40:25
Miss Kenziemuch denser bones so they're much more disagree with that the average male is is stronger sure well well significantly stronger it's not it's not an insignificant amount between the average
00:40:37
Andrew Wilsonmale and average female now I want this point to drive home because it's often stated like oh yeah there's this small marginal difference no it's a significant difference 60 70% in many
00:40:47
Andrew Wilsoncases okay much much much stronger this being the case men have the complete Monopoly on Force Doctrine because they're much much much stronger just raw
00:40:57
Andrew WilsonBrute Force which if you reduce if you reduce rights you reduce Society reduce everything to it's Rod's principle it's going to be Brute Force I want to make
00:41:08
Miss Kenzieyou do thing I always have this Ian I I don't like agree because with violence there can definitely come consequences that are not desirable um in terms of the outcome like I If men wanted women
00:41:21
Miss Kenzieto be slaves you know who determines if the species goes on men women no men if you were slaves how the same way they did in Rome they
00:41:32
Miss Kenzieimpregnated their slaves well I mean but women could just commit suicide yeah why didn't they in Rome well that wouldn't that just be um Black Swan fallacy just because there's that one example where they didn't think
00:41:45
Andrew Wilsonto specific degree here we'll give you every example they didn't do it under gen ishan they didn't do it in again a Blacky so but I mean that's not a Black Swan fallacy by the way but that how how' it not be you we just haven't seen
00:41:57
Andrew Wilsonit so therefore it can't it can't happen Okay so first of all what I'm saying is I'm pointing to a historic standard and saying the historic standard and I asked you a question I didn't make a propositional statement so that's why I
00:42:09
Miss Kenziecan't be F lacious but I would say that ultimately it does come down to women if she doesn't want to sustain pregnancy and is a slave she does obviously have the opportunity to kill herself you
00:42:20
Andrew Wilsoncan't you can't have Society continue I will say that that I so I'll Grant this it is logically possible that all women who are slaved can off themselves not disputing that right however it's also logically possible they do not right
00:42:33
Andrew Wilsonsure okay which one do you think is more likely thenan it it would depend on so many different conditions and cont that's fair so give me a single condition in which the female slaves of all of history have ever collectively
00:42:46
Miss Kenzieoffed themselves in order to prevent their own slavery well it wouldn't be to prevent their own slavery it would be essentially to to stop the um you know the Next Generation and even if you that
00:42:58
Andrew Wilsonwould be preventing slavery sure and even if you do have women who um are enslaved um can you give me an example of a because there there isn't there isn't any there's no example but I'm
00:43:09
Andrew Wilsonsure you wouldn't say that that's moral that's what men ought to do well I believe in objective morality I can I'll make a claims based on an unchanging standard but you're a moral relativist
00:43:22
Miss Kenzieyou you can't be like you can't do that it's relative it's totally relative so is one set of morals of more value than another set of morals um I think morale like there are
00:43:34
Andrew Wilsonmoral facts if that's what you're asking me no that's not what I'm asking you I'm asking you if one set of moral particulars has more value than another set of moral
00:43:45
Andrew Wilsonparticulars um I'm not sure how to answer well I would just need to know if so okay for instance we have one Society over here that murders women and a
00:43:56
Andrew Wilsonsociety over here that does not murder women okay okay can you point to something objective that makes the society murdering women there's there's some like moral claim that you can make
00:44:06
Andrew Wilsonwhich is objective for why that's wrong well I mean Murder By definition is wrong no why why would it the
00:44:17
Miss Kenzieunjustified yeah mean yeah unjustified doesn't mean immoral well it means wrong if it's not just then it's unjust which would be wrong okay we'll rephrase that they set the conditionals for something
00:44:30
Andrew Wilsonyou would consider to be murder and say it isn't it's the Justified killing of this group of people here you consider it murder what makes their moral facts
00:44:41
Miss Kenziewrong um I mean obviously it would depend on on reason and context so you can with reason and context determine which moral facts are
00:44:53
Miss Kenziecorrect um I think you can have certain observations when it comes to the outcomes um I mean that would be consequentialism I think there can be Moral Moral facts in terms of there are things that are always wrong regardless
00:45:07
Miss Kenzieof context like uh like rape why would that always be wrong uh well rape would always be wrong gra let say oh I'm sorry yes that was right
00:45:20
Miss Kenzieuh grape would always be wrong because it would uh because of the harm that it causes yeah why is harm wrong um because harm is I mean again I would say harm by
00:45:30
Miss Kenziedefinition is wrong uh because it is an undesirable outcome within our subjective experience okay so are all undesirable outcomes
00:45:41
Andrew Wilsonimmoral no okay well then that then you just contradicted your position um sure so then you can't point to a set of
00:45:52
Miss Kenzieparticulars which are I think then again that would be kind of um you know based on obviously the scale of harm I think if there's a certain degree it wouldn't
00:46:03
Andrew Wilsonmatter that a if if it is the case that nothing which is against your subjective experience that you consider harmful uh is bad except by your own experience
00:46:15
Andrew Wilsonthen you just just back to relativism like yeah you're never going to get past relativism so I don't really know how you can make the claim that this is worse than that but if you do right I'm just willing to grant that you have a principle and will'll adhere to the
00:46:28
Andrew Wilsonprinciple for the purpose of the debate so we don't bog it down with relativism versus non- relativism we'll kind of just give you the out there because there's no reason to to stay on it but
00:46:37
Andrew Wilsonback to this idea of of um let's see right before that when we were we were diving into yeah force and force Doctrine MH yeah so I
00:46:50
Andrew Wilsonwould say that might makes not saying right I'm not going to make the claim that it makes right but it does make and so I think that Force Doctrine is the necessary requisite for rights it's the necessary requisite to have a nation
00:47:02
Miss Kenzieit's the necessary requisite to have anything it's Force um I I disagree because we could um obviously agree on rights and have a uh
00:47:12
Miss KenzieCooperative we could agree on rights and then if somebody violates the rights what do we use um I I mean I would be more towards
00:47:23
Miss Kenzierestorative justice uh as well as obviously centering the that the victim causes both of those require Force
00:47:32
Miss Kenzieum I I I can agree to some extent but I don't think necessarily if rights if rights violations happen that what the punishment or what the outcomes is is
00:47:42
Miss Kenziewhat one would deem Justice I would say the conditions to which society is to prevent harm would be the ultimate goal
00:47:52
Andrew Wilsonthat would require Force how because if somebody violates any of your principles or any of your rights how how do you get them to not do
00:48:03
Miss Kenziethat well OB I think rights violations happen for specific reasons within Society like if if you were to say if I you were to say that you violated my rights by coming in my house and
00:48:14
Miss Kenziestealing all my stuff then um if we're in a society of capitalism to where people are subjected to to poverty and need access to material Goods okay let's say we have communism communism can't
00:48:25
Miss Kenzieexist without Force it's impossible well that but that's again like an example of how we would prevent rights violations because I would say like if the right is violated did you
00:48:39
Andrew Wilsonreally have it to begin with yeah but you're baking into your hypothetical here oh you violated my right and now we have done and you did it based on some
00:48:49
Andrew Wilsonconditional of um some externality that drove you to this sure right mhm forget that right they just [ __ ] want to they just want to I I think that's just
00:49:02
Andrew Wilsona a lazy presupposition that people just want to do things yeah to just want to cause harm Psychopaths don't exist sociopaths narcissists these people don't exist or they do I mean they they do exist but
00:49:14
Miss Kenzieagain we're talking about what conditions they exist under and those are very rare okay I'll even grant that it's rare yeah I'll even gr it's where can you but I don't think people are born Psychopaths or sociopaths again I
00:49:25
Miss Kenziewould say those are environmental conditions okay like what nourishment uh well no your brain is a is a social organ and so it responds to
00:49:36
Miss Kenzieyour environment I think they did a study where they analyzed I forget how many uh serial killers brains but um or serial and alivers uh but they all had
00:49:48
Andrew Wilsonuh severe damage to the orbital region um well I'd like to take a look at the the data there but was was there meta analysis done on it um I can't remember if it was a meta analysis I
00:50:00
Andrew Wilsonwant to say it was but well in any case it doesn't really matter ultimately all doesn't matter what Society you live in it's going to there's going to be a prerequisite requirement for Force no matter what
00:50:13
Miss Kenziedoesn't matter how like could you even give me in a society in which that would not be the case um I mean it's hard to conceptualize in terms of I think if we
00:50:24
Miss Kenziehad a society based on technology um what do you mean by force are we just talking about like if you have a society in which people have any sort of if you
00:50:34
Andrew Wilsonhave any sort of laws or you have any sort of rights at all then well I agree with that laws like laws do yeah the only thing which would create a
00:50:45
Andrew Wilsonprevention of the violation of said Thing by a person would be the requirement of force so if I want I mean I don't know how Force prevents rights violations
00:50:56
Miss Kenzienecessarily in it's the only thing that prevents rights violations well if you were saying men have the Monopoly on force and that's instilled within patriarchy then why do rights violations occur well no that doesn't even follow
00:51:09
Andrew Wilsonit would just follow that men are the only ones who could stop rights violations I mean at least in Mass um okay yeah that's that's the only thing that would follow from that it's
00:51:21
Andrew Wilsonlike men are the ones in Mass who would stop rights violations which is which is what exactly what happens right now know they are the ones in Mass who stop rights violations um I I think when we
00:51:32
Miss Kenziewhen we talk about that too like obviously um The Entity that is in control of forces also can commit rights
00:51:40
Miss Kenzieviolations sure so um don't disagree at all okay totally agree so I I don't think that the way to society and essentially to establish rights is necessarily through Force the only way
00:51:54
Andrew Wilsonit can be well what happens if you violate somebody's rights then um I mean what do you mean what happens well how do you stop them from doing that well they already did it what
00:52:06
Andrew Wilsondo you mean how do you stop them well okay so I want to take over your country right are you are you just going to let me walk in and do that or well I mean why and and again like do you really have like the modes of Productions and
00:52:19
Miss Kenziethe materal I just don't think people wake up and just say I feel like doing this there's do you feel like Grapist rap up and wake up and feel like
00:52:27
Andrew Wilsongraping wake up and feel like graping uh today is the day no no no no
00:52:36
Miss Kenzieso again I'm trying to I'm trying I'm actually really confused now I think instances sure where grape can be premeditated if we didn't enforce our laws do are you saying people would
00:52:47
Miss Kenziebreak them more or less if we didn't enforce our laws would people break them more or less I think it would depend on the law any law I mean do you Mur do you not murder or I'm sorry do you not murder because it's illegal there's
00:53:00
Andrew Wilsonprobably a lot of people that I'd like to it was legal I'm just asking Mur is fine by the way you so like um I you and I would have do you murder do you not murder because it's illegal you and I would have a
00:53:13
Andrew Wilsondistinction um in what we would consider murder to be right you and I would have a distinction in that so like well I thought we agreed it's unjust killing yeah but what we consider Justified to
00:53:25
Andrew Wilsonbe would be different okay so that would be where we would have a semantic distinction there right so uh for instance if somebody was hang on I'll explain someone is stealing property M
00:53:36
Miss Kenziedo are you entitled to kill them um I mean per the law sure but no but do you think morally oh morally yeah um like somebody's taking off with your
00:53:47
Andrew WilsonTV oh no yeah see I think dead right so you see we have a distinction in justification sure so you think that that's that's murder I think ah no it's not so to answer your question yeah if
00:53:59
Andrew Wilsonthe law wasn't there to say you can't shoot if you're stealing your TV so you would shoot someone who is stealing your TV yeah in the face in the face multiple times multiple times yes that's a with
00:54:11
Andrew Wilsonthe newsy that's a crazy way place to plant your flag an Uzi yeah or you know whatever was convenient yeah what what's wrong with
00:54:22
Andrew Wilsonthat um I I would say that the loss of their life certainly outweighs your your TV uh well I mean if the TV didn't like
00:54:34
Andrew Wilsonoutweigh their ability to run I probably would have missed right but the thing is is you know what else would have prevented this them not stealing my TV that that's true is the is the context here this is a home invasion yeah like
00:54:47
Andrew Wilsonit's in your house yeah well no I think I think you can I think you have the ability to defend your property yeah and that your property your property anything that within the domain of on
00:54:58
Andrew Wilsonyour physical property right meaning property you own I consider that all to be the French word curtilage and anything within the Viewpoint of curtilage is a violation of your actual
00:55:10
Andrew Wilsonproperty and therefore rights violation you have every right to put that person down so that you don't encourage additional people to do it so in many ways I think you're defending you're
00:55:22
Miss Kenziedefending uh not just yourself but everybody around you if more people took that stance um I think we would I think like the better solution would be to
00:55:32
Andrew Wilsonrecognize why someone's stealing your TV okay yeah so but how does that prevent them from doing it so like okay we're investigating it now by the way we've been investigating why people
00:55:44
Andrew Wilsonsteal [ __ ] for about a hundred years and you know what we haven't really prevented people from stealing [ __ ] but I'll just grant you that we could scarcity though I'll just grante you
00:55:54
Andrew Wilsonthat we could we no no people steal even when there's no scarcity Bernie made off took off with how many people's pensions there was no scarcity for well I think capitalism creates scarcity even when there's abundance that you know it's never enough you're going to sounds like
00:56:07
Miss Kenziea c so like Bernie made off who had everything just needed more uh yeah like how how many rich people have clearly enough money to uh live the rest of their life not have to
00:56:18
Andrew Wilsonwork but still work yeah and how many women right who are living middle class Lifestyles steal for fun they literally will steal things for fun cuz it gives them a thrill sure you know and it's
00:56:29
Andrew Wilsonlike so there there could just be the example of greed and the example of I want to do this thing cuz I really like doing it and it's like I I think there's a specific reason behind certain psychological uh habits or um impulses
00:56:43
Andrew Wilsonif you will sure but you can't cure The Human Condition You Can't how do you know that's the Human Condition though because we've been dealing with greed and we've been dealing with these problems at least in the 20th 21st
00:56:53
Andrew Wilsoncentury with the marching of science um we have not been able to just increase people's material uh positions in life and then crime suddenly goes
00:57:04
Andrew Wilsonaway that element will always be there now I think you can reduce it yeah not saying you can't reduce it like people in abject poverty do commit crime more not saying that that's not the case sure what I am saying though is that in the
00:57:16
Andrew Wilsoninterum time while you're trying to solve it it doesn't change the fact this guy has my TV I I never said it did yeah and so I see that as complet justified in blowing