Elon Musk WATCHES Whatever?! Andrew Wilson! HEATED DEBATE With Liberal Feminist?! | Dating Talk #140

Date: 2024-03-04

Duration: 6h 43m

Guests

Brian Atlas

MMalia (DT140)>

MMalik (DT140)>

MMichaela (DT140)>

BBella (DT140)>

CCeleste (DT140)>

MMadison (DT182)>

AAndrew Wilson >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00TTS/Donations(audience)

SPEAKER_02Malik(guest)

SPEAKER_03Esme(guest)

SPEAKER_04Celeste(guest)

SPEAKER_05Bella(guest)

SPEAKER_06Malia(guest)

SPEAKER_07Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_08Media/Clips(audience)

SPEAKER_10Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_12Celeste/Madison(guest)

SPEAKER_13Michaela(guest)

SPEAKER_14JoJo(guest)

Key Moments

QuoteBrian Atlas opens show, noting Elon Musk replied to a Whatever clip tweet.

“welcome to the whatever dating Talk podcast... we had a little love this weekend we had Ellen musk reply to a tweet that had our video in it”

QuoteBrian shows the clip that got Elon Musk's reply: JoJo saying 'I don't think you can be sexist towards men and I don't think you can be racist towards white people'.

“I don't think you can be sexist towards men and I don't think you can be racist towards white people... Elon Musk responded... somebody shared that it got 8 million views”

QuoteAndrew Wilson introduces himself as host of The Crucible.

“my name is Andrew Wilson I am the host of The One and Only Crucible one of the fastest growing debate channels on the internet”

Key MomentMalia reveals she's been celibate for 1.5 years without specific reason, gets 20-30 Hinge likes/day but only accepts ~1.

“I've been celibate for a year and a half not for any particular reason... usually on hinge I'll wake up with like 20 or 30 [likes]... I only like match with one”

Key MomentRatings round begins: Brian asks everyone to self-rate looks on 1-10 scale.

“Stiffler is very curious to ask everyone to rate their looks on a scale of 1 to 10 starting with you going around the table”

QuoteAndrew Wilson sarcastically self-rates as a 10 on looks.

“I'm a 10 for sure explain why there you have it”

Key MomentBrian calls out JoJo's body count claim: she said body count doesn't matter but won't reveal it — implying it does matter.

“I think body count matters so I'm not going to reveal it for that reason... that question tends to be asked in response to women saying that they think body count doesn't matter... but then they have a quite a bit of hesitation when it comes to revealing their own body count”

Key MomentCeleste: story of 4-year on/off relationship with heroin addict begins. She met him at 21 when he claimed 2 years clean.

“you dated a heroin addict on and off for four years... there were more than five times on and off... he relapsed on four separate occasions I honestly couldn't tell you if it was four or more there were five I think maybe was five six”

Key MomentCeleste reveals she hid the heroin addict relationship from her family to protect his image in their eyes.

“they didn't for four years this was going on on and off where this guy was taking heroin and he never told your folks... no... I was not telling my parents to protect his image”

Key MomentJoJo argues women are oppressed in the US, citing Blizzard California lawsuit as example.

“a big one is the whole blizzard case with the lawsuit with California... the state of California sued blizzard because of the unequal treatment of women in the workplace... same exact jobs same exact positions and they were getting paid way less than the men”

Key MomentAndrew Wilson counters: Blizzard settled without admission of wrongdoing; filing a complaint doesn't prove guilt.

“you can't just put forward a complaint and say that because a complaint was made that that means that therefore complaint was true... they admitted no wrongdoing according to this settlement”

ControversyBrian reveals Google internal pay audit found they were overpaying women vs male counterparts, countering JoJo's pay gap argument.

“Google did a review an internal review and found that they were actually overpaying women uh compared to their male counterparts”

Key MomentJoJo cannot name a right that men have today that women do not. Brian presses this question.

“what right does a man have in this country that a woman does not today”

Key MomentAndrew Wilson argues selective service / male draft is the clearest example of male-specific oppression that feminists never advocate against.

“men can be pressed into selective service because nobody gives a about them... women can't... and yet they gripe on the opposite side about things that they consider to be oppressive to them when they will never have to make that ultimate sacrifice”

QuoteEsme leaves the show early before body count round concludes, thanks everyone.

“thank you for having me it was really nice to meet you guys... you weren't as scary as I thought you were going to be”

Key MomentAndrew Wilson uses gamble analogy to get Esme to concede that body count correlates with loyalty: 1 woman with 1 partner for 19 years vs 1 woman with 19 partners over 19 years — which would you gamble on for loyalty?

“if you had to gamble if you had to roll all of your dice on one which one would you say would be more likely to be more promiscuous... you're going to roll it on the person with the least body count which tells me that it matters”

QuoteEpisode wrap-up; Brian thanks Andrew Wilson and the panel.

“okay we're going to wrap up there guys long show long show... go subscribe to Andrew Wilson's The Crucible channel”

Topics Discussed

Show intro and Elon Musk tweet reaction

Brian introduces the show from Santa Barbara. Notes Elon Musk replied to a Whatever clip tweet (got 8M views). Also mentions Trace Cyrus (Metro Station) shared the channel. Andrew Wilson joins remotely.

Guest introductions and relationship status

All guests introduce themselves (name, age, location, occupation). Go around table on relationship status and longest relationships. JoJo: single 2yr, 1 relationship 4yr. Esme: divorced. Malia: single 2.5yr, celibate 1.5yr. Malik: single 2.5yr. Michaela: in relationship 2.5yr. Bella: in relationship since Oct. Celeste: in relationship since Oct, longest was on/off 4yr. Madison: in relationship 1.5yr. Andrew Wilson: married 10+ years.

Dating apps and Malia's dating experience

Discussion of dating app experiences. Malia: gets 20-30 Hinge likes/day but only matches ~1; was banned from apps for not responding; had 1 date in 4 months; prefers nerdy/gamer types. JoJo: only relationship was long-distance. Brian probes Malia on why she doesn't pursue dates.

Hypergamy and women dating up

Andrew Wilson and Brian argue that women hypergamously seek men with more resources. JoJo and others debate whether this is a generational trend. Discussion on whether women's financial independence is changing the dynamic. Andrew cites that hypergamy seems to be increasing not decreasing.

Should women date up: Andrew Wilson scenario

Andrew Wilson presents scenario: 25-year-old man choosing between hot 21-year-old and established 27-year-old. Discussion on what men vs women prioritize in partner selection. Brian cites statistics on men preferring beauty and motherly qualities; women preferring security and resources.

Dating patterns and relationship timelines

JoJo discusses her long-distance relationship. Esme discusses her marriage at 18, divorce at 28, and post-separation hookup culture experience. Discussion of modern dating apps and communication.

Partner preferences: looks, dating apps, nerdy guys

Brian asks each guest what they're looking for. Malia: nerdy/gamer guys, engineers, anime nerds. Brian notes Malia gets many matches but rarely accepts. Discussion of dating app rejection asymmetry between men and women (Hinge: 20-30 likes/day vs 1 match accepted).

Ratings round: self-rate looks 1-10

Brian asks guests to rate their looks. Malia: 6. Malik: 7. Andrew Wilson: sarcastically 10. JoJo: implied ~7 range. Celeste: ~7. Bella: 6.

Celeste: dating a heroin addict for 4 years

Brian addresses notes on Celeste's on/off 4-year relationship with a heroin addict. He relapsed 5-6 times; each relapse ended the 'on' phase. She never ended it — always his ghosting. Met when she was 21, he was 24 and claimed 2 years clean. She stayed because she saw more than the addiction. Hid relationship from family to protect his image. Others discuss rescuer/fixer mentality.

Feminism definition debate

Brian and Andrew argue feminism is female supremacy, not equality. Malik argues feminism is about equality; Brian says that's egalitarianism. Andrew distinguishes classic liberalism from feminism. Quick round: JoJo identifies as feminist (equity-based); others mostly do not. Malik says he is egalitarian.

Are women oppressed in the US: JoJo vs Andrew Wilson

JoJo argues women are oppressed, cites Blizzard California lawsuit (equal pay). Andrew and Brian challenge this: complaint not proof of guilt; settlement without admission of wrongdoing. Brian cites Google internal review found they were overpaying women. Debate on whether inequity = oppression. JoJo cannot name a right men have that women don't (in contemporary US).

Traditional vs feminist panel self-identification

Quick round: do you identify as feminist? JoJo: yes (equity definition). Others: no. Malik: egalitarian. Andrew declares if guests don't identify as feminist, they can be assessed by whether they're traditional.

Women in corporate settings and workplace oppression

JoJo brings Blizzard case again. Brian introduces Google's internal audit finding women were overpaid. Andrew and Brian challenge whether corporate incidents prove systemic oppression. 1970s sex work policing example from JoJo about prostitutes vs pimps.

WWII civilian death casualty statistics video

Brian or Andrew plays WWII casualty documentary video. Andrew argues men were primary victims even counting civilians, due to massacres targeting men. JoJo pushes back. Debate on whether military casualties vs civilian casualties shift the picture.

Selective Service and men's draft: is it oppression

Extended debate: Brian and Andrew argue men being subject to selective service while women are exempt is a form of male oppression. JoJo disputes this framing. Andrew: men can be pressed into service because society does not value them. Malik raises conscription as a counterpoint.

Esme departure and final discussion

Esme thanks the panel and leaves early (~6:10) before body count discussion concludes (3-hour drive home). Andrew compliments her articulation. Remaining panel continues discussion on body count, promiscuity, and relationship fitness.

Promiscuity, body count, and pair bonding

Going around the table on whether body count matters. Results: Celeste/Madison: 8 and 7. Bella/others: 5-6 range. JoJo: declined specific number, range above 30. Esme: doesn't care personally about body count. Andrew uses gamble analogy to get Esme to concede body count correlates with loyalty. Esme concedes gamble point but maintains she would not choose partner by body count alone.

Wrap-up and outro

Brian closes the show. Thanks Andrew Wilson and the panel. Plugs The Crucible channel. Madison reads TTS. Brian raids a WoW streamer on Twitch.

Transcript

Page 5 of 8

Celeste/Madisonto do the other one to 10 one or just the first one I mik oh no when you when you say that you always want to work

MalikMalik are you are are you on some kind of like legal type of Aderall no everyone thinks I'm either an

Malikadol whatever it's called no no no I I don't I I have water and I have a lot of vegetables and fruit um I have caffeine like one once a month just like on days like this where I Want More Energy I

Andrew Wilsonnever do drugs I drink alcohol like on occasions like birthdays and stuff but like that's it well I mean the only reason I ask is because I remember distinctly the last time you were on the

Andrew Wilsonshow you began to eat a banana with a peel on it oh so something I would you like me would you like me to eat my banana again oh God I I do carry a

Malikbanana with me because I do like eating bananas and I banana purse too yes I do got this because it carries my bananas better show us your banana thing and this is not something oh that one

Malikdoesn't look right that but I just prefer bananas you should wash this I always wash it first but it's in your purse I want to switch seats God how much

Maliabacteria is in your purse do I want a bite she's eating it like like what that's so gross I'm kind of tempted to try it but going to

Celeste/MadisonI will buy you a drink tonight if you take a b also that's a like soft ass banana prob really sweet kind bananas you use to make banana bread yeah yeah

Maliathat's banana bread yeah are you are you okay wait do it in the mic for ASMR sound effect this is like the most disturbing thing I've seen

Malikon the podcast yes I'm okay yes I also do have brain damage Superior genetics I've had 12 concussions you had 12 concussions self concussions oh how due

Malikto what did you play sports or something no I didn't play sports I was just a dum I was just a dumb kid the first concussion I got um was from a 2x4 and a sled chamber um W me and my brother uh I

Malikwas about 8 years old and he was like I think five we want to catapult like rocks into the air so do you mind if I set this down here no you have to eat I'll I'll hold it I was just going to my

Malikhands to describe so um we wanted to catapult rocks into the air so we went and found a bunch of rocks like the size of our heads and we took a stump like a log like like maybe this big and we couldn't have can you

Malikshow Andrew go ahead like like you know like like a log like a stump oh I I see what and we cut in half so it was like a semicircle and we took a 2x4 and we nailed it to it and then we stole our

Malikdad's sledgehammer and we were catapulting rocks into the air and we're like taking turns like hitting the sledgehammer and like loing I was a little kid I was 8 years old and it was my turn to like load the sledgehammer or load the rock onto the

MalikCatapult so my brother could launch it into the air and when I bent over to pick up a rock he like got trigger happppy and he hit the little like oh my

Brian AtlasGod who the hell is you asked and he culted me you had 12 con this is 12 concussions it's taking

Brian Atlasyou 45 seconds to we don't need the you asked me yeah I know but like I don't need the the I've just got a lot of concussions from being a dumb

Celeste/Madisonkid all from being a kid do you eat the stem mm it's wood eat it eat it yeah you who do you think is more qualified to make decisions an 18-year-old or

Maliksomeone who has had 12 concussions not the girl eating the banana like that that's for sure okay she's had a bunch of ask someone who is once 18 I'm more qualified now really

Andrew Wilsonokay I actually I actually got concussion do you have the Instagrams ready uh let's start with uh stop eating that banana it's got the peel on it stop stop

Michaeladoing that now oh should I just eat the peel start with the CEST are good for you but you have to wash it I wash it I don't believe so this is we're asking

Celestethe chat here too traditional okay or not it's not right traditional I'm going to take a guess and say that it's or not I know from the chat Celeste right

Brian Atlashere I'm going to go put down this banana please I just thought this distracting I will finish it I'll finish it after all right um okay can you put this on the other

Brian Atlasside is the third video her drinking alol no just do left left uh yeah yeah no no no left small celest knows how to party all right oh play the the the video in the top right corner Play that

Brian Atlasvideo this is her 2023 recap yeah I mean just play it you can turn it on if you want I

Brian Atlasguess actually get rid of it good okay drinking partying at the bar The Club at the Fe Festival Rave

Brian Atlasmaking out with the dog Halloween party bars drinking more drinking making out the dog drinking

Brian Atlaspartying making out with neck tattoo guy making out with a dog partying Rave Festival tattoos uh

Brian Atlasbar and then is that a okay and then go back to the IG let's look at the rest of the IG you know okay

Brian Atlasso you at parties Festival music festivals that maybe looks like a rave

Brian Atlasalcohol titties out dog love dog the dog is good like the dog lot of making out with dog a lot of

Brian Atlasdog making out I'm a little concerned a lot of partying bars festivals bikini bikini photo

Brian Atlastattoo whoa titties out another tattoo more

Brian Atlastitties fake fake titties the titties the are they uh the fake no no thank you though whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hold on wait wait wait wait wait I I have reason

Michaelato believe that they're fake they look real reason thank you I'm I'm looking at the photos They look fake they look wait

Malikscroll up Scroll up exist have I have I failed with my fake hold on those work scroll up also you scroll down to like to the point

Brian Atlaswhere people were using Bo wait hold on scroll down a bit scoll

Belladown down click click the one uh let's analy the right middle right a second

Brian Atlasyeah they're real world so real that doesn't scroll back up scroll back up it's like a tear it's real I feel like te drops always look

Michaelareal wait show the bikini one they look real look good what really you're a they're really real Nick show us the chat I know I I'm

JoJogoing have to do like a deep dive on this later oh my God I think they might be fake son Deep dive over boobs is that would have to understand I'm going to go scan them tomorrow if they were fake

Brian Atlasthere would be more up but they they' have a little bit more also I don't know this is this is like a bad angle to even Analyze That is it cat all say yeah they're saying they're fake scroll up

Malikthey don't know they don't have Foods scroll up actually scroll down don't listen to her wait wait wait uh scroll down scroll

Esmedown scoll see that one with that blue top the blue top let's see the blue top that's a real those are real those are hella real put this on the other side put this on the other side on top put

Malikthis on the other side got to see the other tit well that's in one of the pictures you can see one is like way more defined than the other just based on how she was looking no my little friend I think

Esmestanding up she doesn't got that little table they real she doesn't have that like yeah are they real or they fake I love

Bellawhere and I feel like you can tell by the cleav yeah getting back regardless of the fake titties or real titties sorry we're all talking about your

Brian Atlastraditional or not traditional is she she said she in our in her messages to us she claimed traditional I'm going to put a big no on

Brian Atlasthat big no I no way I think hot take hot take not traditional

Brian Atlastraditional it's all I'm thinking not traditional do you want to walk back the whole being traditional thing walk back well you said well okay that you considered yourself traditional I'm

Celestewould have yes I would lean more traditional um but I guess if you're talking in that sense what sense of being traditional

Celestehow of how I present myself then I probably not I guess if you're speaking in that

Brian Atlassense I'm a traditional man but I take photos with half naked women and but I'm a traditional man and and uh as

Celestefar as my Rel here's my bong and I'm partying and I'm going to clubs and I I didn't post any you know I don't do I don't post stuff like that you bong is that what you were like trying

Brian Atlasoh no I mean I don't know if you were posting anything like that but there's a lot of alcohol us lot of alcohol we you're wearing kind of revealing outfits you're going to you're absolutely correct I'm not I'm not objecting to

Celestewhat you're trying to you're point that you're trying to make but as far as I think my relationship views I would say they might be a little bit more traditional your relationship views yes does that does that mean when it comes

Celesteto like you know a man paying for everything is that what you mean by that yeah I like I said I lean more traditional in that sense not necessarily paying for everything where someone needs to like take care of me CU

CelesteI would most likely work if I didn't have to as well but what does that mean tradition inside of a

Celesterelationship man I guess if you where the man is the head of the household and the provider so like I said I lean more

Celestetowards that where I but I'm saying that I would work if uh if I didn't have to okay so I just want to make sure I get this right so when you're saying

Celestetraditional inside of a relationship you just mean you stay at home he pays for everything oh yeah if you're defining that yes that's why I said I lean a little bit more towards that but if I didn't have

Celesteto I would still okay but I wouldn't want to be completely taken care of I would just rather have my significant other be someone who is a little bit more of a

Maliaprovider who who else is traditional you yes you H we could do Malex let's see her Instagram I don't think PL is

Maliabad let's find out let's see here we'll be the judge of that all right who that selfie is really

Esmeexposed real fake yeah real fake yeah are they real are they fake

Brian AtlasSC showing the G uh okay all right yep looks fine looks okay so

Unknownfar all right okay that's not that I think that's uh that's bad based off your Instagram I think uh you might pass you

Michaelamight is is is what percentage clean it up a little bit is yeah what's up with the top right photo Malik the top right photo I I

Malikdon't think I don't see anything wrong with that that that dress goes almost to my knees I don't think it's that low cut it's a straight across top yeah I went

Malikto isn't it isn't it a thirst trap mik you posted thirst traps I'm thirst Andrew the entire the entire reason of posting to Instagram or any social media

Andrew Wilsonis to get attention so by definition every post is a thirst trap yes I think I looked good do you Me by definition no I don't think so what do you I think that a thirst trap is a woman posing

Andrew Wilsonsexually provocatively in order to get attention I for a picture of you drinking orange juice is a thirst trap Mallet I think that there's a distinction right I do not think any of

Malikmy photos were sexual I don't think I was sexualizing myself in any photos I just they were pictures of myself yeah but you would agree with me then no that Malik let me finish what I said or what

Andrew WilsonI'm trying to say so you would agree with me though that a third trap is a woman who is posting in a sexually provocative way in order to get male attention right yes that's the

Malikdefinition of a thirst trop it's yeah you want just saying top right one looked a little bit like that what you were trying to do M that's all say no I don't I I have I don't have any pictures

Malikin bikinis I have no pictures of my ass at all um if no look you passed the muster I just I pointed out one pick that's all and I don't see anything wrong with that picture but thank you for pointing it

Celeste/Madisonout beautiful you're welcome Maddie could you read this bro that story gave me CTE I want to smell the Renaissance Fair chick's chair once

Malikshe leaves waa what which that's for me telling how I got CT oh I see that was just one of the 12 but I'll

Brian Atlassave y the additional CT thank you for the 69 uh uh message man appreciate it thank you thank you all right uh let's move on unless was there somebody else

Brian Atlaswere you traditional are you Trad yeah lowy I mean I'm let's just do her IG and then we'll move on um Malia is also Chad oh okay we'll do her and then her and then we'll just move we'll just we don't have enough

Maliktime I mean there's parts of mine where I'm like but I'm tra at home would you say your out today is traditional TR there's a difference

Brian Atlasbetween claiming traditional thank you AB for the gifted 20 memberships I Val tradition [Music] for what's up yeah let's do

BellaBella who that's not me that's not me that's not me that's not you no that's not me W no I'm in I was not no that's not me that's not your Instagram that is

TTS/Donationsmy Instagram but that video is not me okay oh that middle Energy donated $100 first of all she ain't traditional

TTS/Donationstypical modern day 304s second fakey gold Bitties if it's real take off the shirt and prove it

TTS/Donationsnumber 34's love Chad crackhead # get the Rocks number 8 18 # Grand thrust get the Rocks Abdul yeah get the rocks how

Celesteabout this panel is celibate what do you mean ran through I appreciate the compliment um I've gotten that in the past but I can you know 100% claim that

Celestethey are not and I'm also scared of like surgeries in general so I don't think even if I wanted to I wouldn't surgeries can kill you we've had girls come on the show

Brian Atlassorry before claiming they don't have fake titties well I'm not one F actually Andrew was on that show Andrew do you remember that twitch girl

Brian Atlaswho uh she was like Russian or some I think it was like yeah yeah I remember weird yeah who's kind of just um I

Brian Atlasforgot her name Mera yeah oh yeah I she had fake titties and she's like no I don't

Malikyeah totally totally lying through her her ass off that whole Yo FN life thanks for the gifted 10 uh membership so I appreciate it but and I will say I understand a reason for her to lie she

Malikhas no reason to lie about it like she doesn't do o content she doesn't what I said thank you no like I think what do you mean she doesn't have a reason to lie you're accusing her of having fake

Maliktits but she would have no reason versus a twitch streamer who presents herself and her says her thumbnail almost every day like I can understand her wanting to protect her own online image and saying

Brian Atlashey they're real but she has no reason to lie well I I could probably think of reasons why she could have reasons to lie such as I could be wrong though I

Brian Atlasmean I don't know I I haven't done a thorough enough investigation a lot of people can we not focus too much on the titties though I feel look I'm not 100%

Malikset I have I have questions I feel like you're focused on the titty I'm not focused on the titty you guys keep talking about the

Brian Atlastitties 30 seconds I was responding to the donation I have doubts but I could be wrong I could be wrong I like to think I have a good fake titty radar but maybe I in this one time in my whole

Brian Atlaslife I've I've been wrong once when it came to the fake titties I don't know once and if that's true then it's probably a compliment to her I guess I anyways let's read this Madison shut the

Celeste/Madisonf up being 5 foot tall is my fault I'll just grow taller if I want to be with the woman this last $50 is for the Chilean General to invade Canada to save me of the Communist

Andrew Wilsontrudo tyranny $200 can Canadian yeah is confirm that the the non-speaking

Andrew Wilsonsoldier in the background I have talked with him and he is a hater of the trau I can confirm that that's true do you want can you I know it's uh

Brian Atlasdo you want to respond in Spanish Pito espanol por

Brian Atlassee that's what he's a man of few words you know he's he's a stoic he's a soldier uh okay all right uh thank you there the official Prince where were we

Brian Atlasoh we did uh we'll do your Instagram really quick then we'll move on senior Nick poor favore pull up the L

Brian AtlasInstagram the L inst oh we were still on this okay okay okay uh scroll

Brian Atlasdown okay uh oh yep okay there's that uhhuh okay

Brian Atlasokay you know there a little uh a little she said those AR traditional so for the chat traditional or not traditional cuz the

Brian Atlasbikini one isn't me okay so fine yeah that bikini one is not me the third one though is uh check out my ass

TTS/Donationsthe the BR stated $100 the I will legit marry the Renaissance Fair chick I'll smell her chair's consolation if I am turned

Michaeladown wow so I have to accept or he smells my chair it sounds like chair got me in a trap right there you might be dating sooner than you think

Brian Atlasyou're screwed bud if you do a champagne pop Maddie will smell it on your behalf that wild yeah I'll smell it whoa please yeah

Brian Atlasshe's her friend let okay uh her Instagram please who's that L Mo yeah sorry L Mo L Mo Mia Mia

Brian Atlasit's really not worth looking at while we're waiting on that you said you think a lot of people end up going through an unhealthy attachment and one detrimental relationship oh no this is back to you um in order to get to a

Brian Atlaspoint to understand how to be okay as a single

Celesteindividual no I think I'm so okay my wording on that I don't I feel like I wish I would have rewarded that because I don't feel I don't feel

Celestelike it's necessary to be okay as an single individual but I feel like the majority of the people that you speak to probably and most likely have

Celestegone through one attachment unhealthy attachment and some kind of relationship and it kind of goes back to not that I believe in like the three loves of your life but that

Celestesecond one that everybody goes through that's you know toxic and unhealthy and you learn who you are and what you want that's what I kind of mean I feel like there's

Celestea healthy amount of people out there that go through some kind of unhealthy attachment audio is muted word yeah I wasn't trying to chime

Maliain I'm sorry no no it's okay um Instagram Nick all right this is I haven't posted in like two years this is our friend

MaliaMalia I'm not much of a poster it's not bad no all right wait show them the last picture though I think they'll like it no the first like most recent one scroll through it it's her with a

Brian Atlasgun it's me with a gun she wants to show off the gun Okay cool so traditional or not traditional traditional or not

Brian Atlastraditional so moving on we have draxx draxx on fire Drax on fire you said you don't know how to date after divorce dating scene is weird now on

Brian Atlasdating sucks everything seems to be transactional and disposable meeting people who know what they their dating style is I feel like everyone is always looking for the greener grass swiping

Esmeleft and right yep yeah you want to expand a little bit I mean um like I had said earlier it's

Esmeit's kind of tough to um date after marriage um although my situation with that partner was tough in

Esmegeneral now dating like people don't really meet in person anymore um and so this online dating

Esmeconcept is it's difficult because like we had mentioned earlier the conversations die down so freaking

Esmefast it's one most people only want to uh be on those dating apps to sleep with people and if you're one of those individuals that don't part take in

Esmehookup culture um you start with that conversation and then within like the first couple sentences they realize that you're not really about it and it just

Esmelike either dies down or they try to play it off like oh yeah it's no big deal I'm not trying to sleep with you but in reality they are and I mean I know what what I'm looking for but then

Esmeyou find a lot of people that are like oh well um I'm still trying to figure out my dating goals and you're in your like mid-30s trying to figure out what it is that you want in a partner so um I

Esmedon't know it's just like it's weird overall um most of the people that I me your mic this way most of the people that I meet only want to hook up or they want to hook up and then see where that

Esmeleads and I'm just like not about it it's it's tough it's difficult part of it is my fault I don't really put a lot of effort into meeting people in person um so maybe that's part of it but I also

Celestedon't want to like go out and meet people at the bar or the club I have a question you go to a lot of music festivals right I do have you ever had any luck meeting anybody in person there

Esmeso yes but they're like what do people call them Rave Bays right you go you meet and they're like wow they're having such a good time and

Esmeyou're partying or whatever but afterwards a lot of them live like out of the state out of the country or you kind of just like I don't know with

Esmewithin the whole having fun you don't get their number maybe um I don't know the the following day they just don't message you back and it's just like a while you're there type

Brian Atlassituation this is totally unrelated but when you were during your introduction you said that with some of these hookups they'd be like try to kick you out after

Esmehaving sex you felt it was in person yeah so um during the time that I separated I wasn't sleeping or like seeing anybody um I ended up kind of

Esmesort of dating one of uh people that were like in our friend group or whatever and never really LED anywhere but it it always felt to me like um you sleep with that person I'm so glad him

TTS/Donationsnot dating donated $100 Brian what makes you traditional besides just words Andrew I understand but what makes you any different than

TTS/Donationsthem sex before marriage wow gamer podcaster the structure to the pedestal please well the difference is is I don't overtly claim that I'm traditional I

Brian Atlasdon't think I've ever claimed that so it's like you know these of girls who come on the show or these porn stars oh I'm traditional well no it's actually

Brian Atlasyou're not whereas if they just claimed oh yeah I'm a modern woman I wouldn't really like there's nothing to push back on there so I don't really make claims

Brian Atlasthat I'm like this this Paragon of tradition there are some components of me that I think are traditional um but yeah I'm not I don't believe in waiting until marriage

Brian Atlasum I don't play video games actually I used to play video games but I haven't played video games since uh 2020 but I mean I have a I have a knowledge of it

Brian Atlascuz I used to play so I'll make video game references is um playing video games make you not traditional yeah yeah well I mean uh I don't know

Brian Atlaswhere video games really come into that but um I don't yeah I don't really make it a habit to be like oh again

Brian AtlasI'm I don't Proclaim myself to be no like some Paragon of tra tradition would you consider yourself traditional then yes or no

Brian Atlasuh in some ways yes but again I'm not out here being like yeah I'm a like trying to trying to claim being traditional perhaps in some ways I am in other ways

MalikI'm not like I'm not waiting till marriage I'm not sex and um don't but um yeah I'm not really trying to defend but it's because you ask all of the girls on

Malikthe panel do you consider yourself traditional yes or no they're not going out and like on their socials and stuff claiming like Oh I'm a traditional woman subscribe to my only fans it's just you

Brian Atlasask a yes or no question and then like you're not traditional well in the pre in the pre-show casting questions we ask do you consider yourself feminist or traditional so usually I'll only give

Brian Atlaspush back if a girl who likes she does she's outwardly does not appear to be tradition traditional or she's involved in sex work and claims to be traditional that's usually where my push back stems from and and I understand that but

Malikfeminist and traditional are not opposites they're two separate things yeah no they're opposites they're opposites so you said you wouldn't fully consider yourself traditional so that

Andrew Wilsonmeans you're femin no you said they're opposite the well so so just because two things are opposite of each other doesn't mean if you're not one of those things that it

Brian Atlaswould immediately make you the other that would be logical mik isn't that the definition I'm not well Fe feminism is

Brian Atlasin its most generous sense is as advocating for women yes so um well no feminist is that men and women are yes

Brian Atlasin my questionnaire I'm like do you consider yourself traditional or more feminist I I I see what you're coming from but as far as me no I'm not

Brian Atlasfeminist at all I might actually lean more egalitarian which I prefer over feminism but egalitarian is feminist no it's not a matriarchy I think is what

Malikyou're thinking but a matriarchy is not feminist because in a matriarchy The Woman versus like a patriarchy well we have a gynocentric

Maliksociety yes but in a feminist Society or an egalitarian society men and women are equal I believe it and but that's not what feminism is feminism is that men

Brian Atlasand women are equal no it's not yes it is no it's not yes it is no it's about securing uh rights it's not that women are better it's securing privileges for

Brian Atlaswomen that so that that they're equal to men no actually because for example in a scenario where feminists are are seeking

Brian Atlasequality um they will only seek that equality if it somehow stands to benefit women if seeking some form of equality would actually come to the detriment of women feminists will not seek it so it's

Brian Atlasnot equality between men and women because feminists would be in the streets fighting for Equalization of uh Selective Service and the draft but you're using it's Supremacy it's Female

Andrew WilsonSupremacy is the ultimate goal of feminism is it though now it is it is it is though yeah it's about that's why not a single one of you at the

Andrew Wilsontable I can prove it to you right now equality it can't is anybody at this table going to identify as a fourth wve feminist yeah that's what I thought and

Andrew Wilsonthat's because it's they're all female supremacist but how many of you would identify as a first wave or second wave feminist it's like original feminist yeah

Andrew Wilsonyeah like basically all of you right so that's the that's the distinction right so you move on the pathway well maybe not you Malik but almost every other woman here does and the reason for this

Andrew Wilsonis because yes feminism becomes about Female Supremacy uh that is that's actually what was in the doctrine originally for feminism was a move towards Female Supremacy it wasn't

Andrew Wilsonenough that they were equal with men because men are a bunch of violent Predators Malik who are always after young women and things like this so they

Andrew Wilsonabsolutely had to get these evil men who were just ultraviolent lunatics under control this is on all of the feminist Doctrine and you know this by the

Malikway I will fact check you after the show because I doubt Brian is going to want to pull up the definitions now but what do you mean I disagree what definitions of feminism that feminism is for female supr let's look at what's actually in

Malikpractice okay but I'm not talking about Twitter Warriors I'm not talking about people who live on Twitter and type oh women should control this and all that or like the online representation like feminism I am not a feminist I'm against

Brian Atlasfeminism for the record but think feminism is equality not Female Supremacy well hold on do you think that the feminism that they teach in universities for example and mind you in

Brian Atlasevery single institution of higher education there's some sort of uh women women studies or feminist studies course or even Majors right every single institution in this country there's no

Brian Atlascorresponding men studies or you know whatever there's not really a men's rights courses whatever it might be um what do you think they are teaching women in these courses I don't know let

Brian Atlasme ask you a question do you think they're teaching patriarchy theory in these courses course not because patriarchy not because patriarchy is not equivalent you can feminism would be

Brian Atlaspatriarchy Society where it's equal patriarchy theory is a core tenant of patriarchy theory is a core tenant of

Malikfeminist ideology and it's taught in universities it's wrong and it should be egalitarian not that it should be a matriarchy where what it's a fe a

Andrew Wilsonmatriarchy would be if females no you're talking Malik you're confusing classic liberalism with feminism when you're talking about egalitarianism you're

Andrew Wilsontalking about like John Lock style egalitarian Doctrine like traditional uh liberalism is what you're pointing at not feminism Fe feminism does teach patriarchy Theory uh and it teaches it

Andrew Wilsonfrom standpoint Theory it's saying that men are evil ultraviolent lunatics and have to be brought under control that is what it teaches and that's what its original Founders uh push you can I mean

MalikI can give you a massive list or you can just buy a cult feminism and read it for yourself now read it for yourself for sake of argument then I said I I would flear but can we just pull up the definition of feminism it it doesn't

Brian Atlasmatter really that's what I'm referring to I don't I don't care what they teach and I all institutions of higher education which by the way I think it's

Brian Atlas60% of uh of college students are women now so more women are getting fed these lies uh in these institutions if they're teaching

Brian Atlaspatriarchy Theory which basically states that men as a class as a gender are oppressors and women are oppressed that's a really hateful thing to teach

Andrew Wilsonswads of women go ahead here you go fourth wve feminism fourth wave feminism is a feminist movement that began in the 2010s and it's characterized by a focus

Andrew Wilsonon the empowerment of women and the use of intersectionality and internet tools seeking greater gender equality equality now intersectionality as you might note

Andrew WilsonMalik is what what is intersectionality yeah Malik so I believe that intersex is both sex what I don't know to to on that level not

Malikinterex intersectionality intersectionality okay I I am not a feminist I know I have no knowledge on feminism other than the bare minimum why are you trying to tell us what the

Malikit is Malik because he's saying you guys are telling me that you're either feminist or traditional and Brian just said he's neither no no didn't say either or didn't say you're feminist or traditional but that if you identify as

Andrew Wilsonbeing traditional and you're not identifying as being a feminist very easy for us to make a determination if you're traditional or not that's it it's not if you're not one you're that wouldn't even follow that makes no sense

MalikI do not see either of you correct in this manner but you guys are going to keep framing this play louder play

Brian Atlaslouder you are wrong you're right wait going around the table really quick do you consider yourself a feminist well if you describe it as Supremacy no I think is well your sense

JoJoof the word feminist I Equity is fairness so yes Equity or equality Equity Equity yes I don't think we are completely the same and completely equal I think you can acknowledge the

Brian Atlasdifferences in isn't Equity worse than equality fairness Equity is the idea of fairness is it yeah yeah to a certain extent uh okay are you do you consider yourself a

Brian Atlasfeminist um not what feminist stand for now okay what about you definitely not a Fourth Way feminist I'm not sure what about just in general are you a feminist in general I don't feel oppressed no oh

Brian Atlasokay no no not then not now okay so feminist not feminist but feminist so let's bring it to you really quick um going around

Brian Atlasthe table actually are are women oppressed I think yes okay Malia don't laugh at your friend here sorry we had this already a

Bellawhole okay are women oppressed not in the US yeah not in the US no not in the US not in the US not in the US what am I are women oppressed oh no

JoJono so you think women are oppressed in the US I think they can be yeah how well I'm glad you brought this up yeah a big one

JoJois I'm super GL brought it a big one is the whole blizzard case with the lawsuit with California you're a big blizzard fan uh World of Warcraft okay the state

JoJoof California sued blizzard right because of the unequal treatment of women in the workplace same exact jobs same exact positions and they were

JoJogetting paid way less than the men has that uh has that been settled yet that case I I have not been keeping up with it but the original filing of it I read so I mean you can't

Andrew Wilsonjust you can't just put forward a complaint and say that because a complaint was made that that means that therefore complaint was true that would be absurd right you would never do that

Brian Atlasthat would be absurd to you can I it's the state of California you don't you don't think they would have like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoaa wait hold on hold on so um if the state of California

Brian Atlasfiles a criminal complaint against you and they've alleged that you've murdered somebody but you know you didn't but because it's the state of California surely why would they proceed with a

JoJoprosecution unless they knew you were guilty so do do are do you not believe in innocent until proven guilty okay on a corporation level though this is not

JoJolike a one person like he said she said this is a huge corporation where where you would think again I guess I'm assuming but you would think they have a little more evidence than like one

Brian Atlaswhistleblower well so what spec because I'm I've heard some stuff about blizzard is it is it related to pay is it related I think there was some there was a few

Brian Atlassome some sexual harassments allegations um Andrew uh asked you though is it has it been settled because this sounds like a civil case that's been brought against blizzard it's not

Andrew Wilsonclear to me so just so you know the background in it is it was settled I think it was yeah but the determination here really though is not whether or not it was but why in the world you would

JoJouse that as evidence for discrimination if you didn't even know that it was well I was about to say I I remember I think reading a headline that they settled with a huge like but so how is this now

Andrew Wilsonwait now suddenly you remember that that they settled after I told that they settled isn't that convenient but is that a good argument for the like it's not a good argument to say I remember that a complaint was brought up and so

Bellatherefore I think that women are oppressed that seems absurd can I actually ask a question too because it was the topic of are women oppressed is it more so that it's just inequity or

Bellawould you would you genuinely consider something like that as oppression because there is a big difference between oppression and just inequity well I think in the general sense I

JoJothink inequity it can be oppression depending on um I guess so I guess to make it more specific is unequal pay

TTS/DonationsTetro donated $100 Miss JoJo whom I find so attractive the fact that a legal complaint is filed doesn't mean that the opponent is guilty

Andrew Wilsonwe have the right of Innocence until proven guilty so let the file conclude not only that but the file did conclude you like through the hang on I'm going

Andrew Wilsonthrough the complaint here as well and this was actually a direct settlement so they they settled with him because they didn't want to go through the court causes according to the Activision of

Andrew Wilsontrying to take on the state in this massive court case but they admitted no wrongdoing according to this settlement so the question again becomes even if you settle because of court cost that

Andrew Wilsonstill is not necessarily an indication of wrongdoing so what Brian is asking you specifically here is what are the things that you would point to that would show that women are not equal to

Brian Atlasmen inside of American society oh my God and you're you don't like the World of Warcraft blizzard it's not clear if that's evidenced of of widespread

Andrew Wilsonoppression because like not even clear that it's oppression in this case it's not even clear in this case it's oppression so uh any examples that you could give that uh that we can dive into

Brian AtlasI'm literally happy to entertain any of them besides besides the that one well you can do are let me ask you one question before you give an example are you oppressed I I'm not saying me

JoJopersonally well you said women are you there are cases of women being oppressed that's what I said well the the question was sort of a general one are women oppressed I'm not

JoJosaying every woman's oppressed okay so which ones who at this table's oppressed which that's how you feel okay so which ones and how which ones and how

Brian Atlaslike in the cases of corporate a big one let me ask you a question so actually speaking of tech companies well I guess Blizzard's a video game company but kind

Brian Atlasof s bring uh Google actually did a tried to do a review of their um you know their their uh payroll and they actually found and you can Google this

Brian Atlasand maybe uh Andrew you could you could just make sure I'm getting this right uh Google did a review an internal review and found that they were actually overpaying

Brian Atlaswomen uh compared to their male counterparts is that evidence of men being impressed that Google was overpaying the women for the same work the same job because of I probably

JoJoovercompensation of what they think they thought is that evidence of Oppression though that the women were getting paid more than the men well I don't think just payment is like the one example of Oppression I mean that's what you cited to with the blizzard case well there was

Andrew Wilsonother things with the blizzard case it wasn't just the payment inity treatment in the office there was also I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off but Brian is correct this was a

Andrew WilsonSilicon Valley internal audit that Google did and they found that they were overpaying their female staff in order to compensate for some social justice right that's essentially what

JoJohappened in that case well that's why sometimes it's hard I I'm not going to say I'm a full liberal full socialist because I do think there are a lot of mistakes like

JoJothat I don't the overcompensation of for women that's why it's more about equity and not necessarily equality cuz I think the argument that we're completely equal

Brian Atlasis is BS we're complet we're completely different wait so but when it happens to women it's oppression but when it happens to men it's

JoJojust so not oppression no I I was using the example of Blizzard because there was a lot of things in that working environment in the are you oppressed I said no okay how are women

JoJooppressed like in the example of the like besides the blizzard a corporate office a lot of times there are are you know women who aren't listened to as much there's there's studies showed by like Harvard did a bunch of studies on

JoJois that oppression though I don't know if that would constitute oppression uh it could be unfair treatment but I don't well depends on oppression like not

JoJolistening to women's voices or like ideas in the workplace isn't that kind of along the lines what evidence do you have that that that actually occurs well there are studies that show like for

JoJoexample a Harvard case study is um you guys probably know of this one where they they give two like descriptions of someone is this the resume one like the resum yeah and they thought the woman

JoJowas this one go ahead Andrew has something for this oh gosh but okay go ahead yeah so they showed a room full of students they thought the woman was bossy blah blah and then they thought the the man was a great leader took good

JoJoinitiative Etc wait which which thing are you referencing here which stud uh it was a Harvard case study based off of they were giving the qualifications of a candidate and the woman uh they the classroom deemed that she seemed bossy

JoJoshe seemed um arrogant and then they gave it with a man's name and they were like oh he seems like a good leader I would follow him confident now this is off the top of

Andrew Wilsonyour head so I don't I don't actually expect you to know this uh but do you have any idea what the study might have been called or what the methodology was that was used in it no there's a there a

Andrew Wilsonlot of uh my classes go go over that study though I I wouldn't be able to tell you the name well it sounds like you're paying a lot for classes where you don't even remember what it is that you

JoJoread Harvard case study do you remember every Harvard case studies you read if I site them I do I didn't I didn't know what topics of conversation we're going to come up on this podcast do you know

Andrew Wilsonwhat I find out I mean if if it let's just assume for a second was a topic of conversation I didn't think would come up on the podcast then I probably wouldn't cite something if I didn't know anything about the thing I was citing

JoJothat seems again to me to be absurd I read it it's the same it's it's the same thing in the earlier arguments like what are the statistics you're citing based off in like which statistics like what

JoJotime period and things like that you Rand randomly would give like information that it's based off what and you would say oh things I've read okay which reference are you referencing like uh you were talking about divorce

Andrew Wilsonbecause of unhappiness this is all stats you can find from divorce.com not kidding and you can also find the other stats that I cited to you from Pew

Malikresearch okay I I've noticed a common Trend I'm not trying to attack you Kirby but almost every liberal woman I've met who especially those who are studying

TTS/DonationsCollege whether they're getting their bachelor's Masters whatever it is they're very liberal in and I'm so glad I'm not dating donated

TTS/Donations$100 anytime wife is feeling oppressed or I'm feeling ungrateful we take a dump in the toilet flush it and watch it get

Andrew Wilsoncarried out of our home into the septic tank instant great fullness try it interesting so you just flushed the right out of your

Malikhousehold a lot of a lot of liberal leaning women especially who are feminist leaning often state that I think it should be this way or this person's oppressed and I'm going to college for it and I've been in college

JoJofor eight years and I've learned all this and I've taken all these classes but then you don't State anything it's just all opinions well I'm stating actual studies but I mean of course I guess it's a terrible example if I don't remember the

Malikactual case study but but but but there's no reasoning why it's just oh this person this one day got oppressed by this person but a man had a similar scenario happened but that wasn't

Andrew Wilsonoppression that was just a mere coincidence that day to back up Malik's Point here what she what and let me mansplain a little bit it's good for M to hear this so even if the study is

Andrew Wilsontrue whatever it is that you're referencing and that there was a similar set of qualifications between a male and a female and picture shown to a class and the class thought that the woman was a boss and the man was

Andrew Wilsonsophisticated or you know some variation thereof that still wouldn't actually indicate that women were oppressed that would just be a moderate sociological

Andrew Wilsonstudy of which you still could not draw any apt conclusions of Oppression from such a study well I think there's a

JoJogeneral I guess a general opinion based off of that that it's like it's harder for women to like get promoted for

Andrew Wilsonexample because they're what Mal just said is right then an opinion an opinion based off like the psychical anything which is really tangible nor

Andrew Wilsonscientifically demonstrated but an opinion so what Mal is saying because she deals with twitch lunatics all the time she knows this as well as as any of us do which is that often times people

Andrew Wilsonwill characterize sociological studies as being backups for their opinion they've never even read the studies they don't know anything about the studies and then they site them as some form of

Andrew Wilsonevidence for their opinion and so the distinction here that I'm looking for is I want to determine if this is just your opinion or if you think that there's any actual scientific validity to the fact

Andrew Wilsonthat in a sociological study that there was a variance of opinions given and that that means we can draw some kind of conclusion from that how do you

Malikscientifically prove can I sure wait wait wait just finish your oppression yeah oppression okay great so I'm I'm part Persian I'm Middle Eastern okay in

MalikIran women will get arrested killed attacked Beat Just for showing their hair to me that is oppression that's not scientific evidence of Oppression the scientific

Malikevidence like that's that's factual evidence it's factual you don't need to have any scientific study if a woman shows her hair in public in Iran there's a high probability that a violent hate crime is going to be committed against

Malikher just for showing her hair because in Iran and the Middle East specifically there's a lot of Oppression against Wom women and women are not treated well now but hang on mik nobody went there with a

Andrew Wilsonclipboard and a pin and determine scientifically whether or not beating the out of a woman was oppression or not Malik so you calm down a statistic out of control again it's not

Malika statistic it's a fact it's a fact it's a statistic you don't need signs you don't a fact it happens it's a fact well it's yeah it's a fact it's facts that add into statistics you don't need to do

Malikany scientific study to know that if you go to the Middle East you may not even live a day just dressed how you are right now in America you can walk to a bar alone at night get drunk and get

Malikhome safe yes that's not the safest thing to do but even the fact that you have the capability of doing that shows that women are free and not oppressed and you can get J you want to be a

Malikfull-time worker your entire life work a 9 to-5 you you're going to college you're studying there's some countries that still women don't even have those rights for where they can get an education and work yeah they're just

JoJoforced to live a life that they just have to or they're dead yeah I I agree with you I've never said women are not oppressed everywhere else in the world I just think there's examples and cases of to me that's what oppression is in

MalikAmerica women do not face any of that I I don't it's a little extreme to say any of that there are cases of there are outliers but generally the laws in the United States of America do not allow

Andrew Wilsonwomen to be aess also on top of that you're going to point to outl than each outlier you can point to I can point to a similar outlier for why men are oppressed inside of this great

Andrew Wilsoncountry as well so anytime you decide to indicate one of these outliers I'm happy to match you one for one for why it is that men can go in do you think men are oped wonderous

Andrew Wilsonwonderful qualifications that they have and due to uh some type of I don't know California statute that says you have to have X amount of women who are CEOs in

Andrew Wilsonyour companies that suddenly these men get outplaced by these women that sounds like a lot of oppression to me I got to tell you do you think men are oppressed I think they

Malikcan I think anyone can really be oppressed then you're destroying the def the meaning of the word if anyone can be oppressed then no one's oppressed I think there it goes case bye if anyone can be oppressed then there is

Malikno oppression cook Malik this whole whole thing contradicting almost every statement you make because you're making statements of facts based on your

Celeste/Madisonpersonal opinions on your personal life and your life choices and how you were raised okay here's a question here's a question ride home tonight be a long

Brian Atlasdrive going be a long drive they drove they drove together so that's going to be an awkward ride home uh are there any are there any

Brian Atlasrights that men have that women don't off the top of my head um no you can think about it for a

JoJowhile take your time oh man um in the US though of course in the US

JoJoyeah um I mean you're going to I already know the argument for this one if I say it but it's like the topic of the topic of

JoJoabortion I already know like the counter points to that okay uh well that's true men don't have the right to get abortion exactly it's like that's going to be like yeah it's kind of unfair for men

JoJoyeah there we go inequality they don't have a say and if you can abort it that's an argument I've heard okay anything besides that so men would be

JoJooppressed in your example yeah are you saying men are oppressed I said there you guys said I can't say that so you can say it you can say there's a you're just wrong

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