Andrew Wilson vs. Charlie (Feminist, Leftist) | Rachel Wilson CRASHES Show?! | Whatever Debates #22

Date: 2025-11-09

Duration: 6h 17m

Guests

Brian Atlas

CCharlie (Feminist)>

AAndrew Wilson >

RRachel Wilson >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00Andrew Wilson(host)

SPEAKER_03Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_04Rachel Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_05Charlie (Feminist)(guest)

Key Moments

IntroBrian introduces Andrew Wilson vs Charlie debate on feminism

Key MomentAndrew: women voting on war while men die is 'fundamental injustice'

Key MomentBureau of Justice Statistics on interracial crime read aloud

Key MomentCharlie admits she doesn't know what 'per capita' means

Key MomentRachel Wilson crashes debate by phone after Charlie attacked her family

ControversyCharlie: Rachel's life 'would have been better spent' if she aborted her children

Key MomentCharlie reveals she was on testosterone for 10 years (FTMF detransitioner)

AgreementAndrew and Charlie bond over Tolkien and Lord of the Rings

Topics Discussed

COVID Lockdowns vs Feminist Choice

Andrew challenges Charlie: supported lockdowns but supports pro-choice. Inconsistency.

Women Voting / Draft

Andrew: unjust that women vote on war when men bear combat risk.

Abortion and Birth Control

Charlie argues abortion essential for economic equality.

Interracial Crime Statistics

Andrew presents DOJ stats. Charlie contests conviction reliability.

Colonialism and Anti-White Rhetoric

Extended debate on 'colonizer' definition.

Rachel Wilson Crashes Debate

Rachel calls in after Charlie's comments about her children.

LOTR and Tolkien

Post-debate friendly exchange on Tolkien, Christian allegory.

Transcript

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Andrew Wilsonwomen voting with white men is because they were married to them. And that's still a demographic with a high marriage rate. >> But as the marriage rate decreases, whites don't vote together.

Andrew Wilson>> And races don't vote together. Women will vote how their husbands are. And as long as the marriage rates are still higher for whites than they are other demographic groups besides Asians, as soon as they those marriage rates

Charlie (Feminist)continue to plummet, no. In fact, women do vote against men's interest for sure. >> I would say I believe in black American populations, the marriage rate is fairly low.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Extremely low. >> But regardless, uh, black women and black men tend to vote the same, >> except this last election. >> Really? >> Yeah. When you look at the black female

Andrew Wilsonvote versus the black male vote. But yeah, like I agree under Obama, right? 90%. But black people have voted as a monolith for a long time. Yeah, >> that's not the case with other races.

Andrew WilsonAnd we can we can look down ethnic lines and we can see that yes, it's true that white women tend to vote the way their husbands do, but when they're not married, they tend to vote left. >> And that's that.

Charlie (Feminist)>> What about women who are more likely to be uh unmarried and of age to vote? You're looking at a lot of the time college students,

Charlie (Feminist)women, uh educated women. So again, I think that education plays a huge role in how someone votes. It's I believe that most white people, male and female,

Charlie (Feminist)um, educated, tend to vote left, whereas uneducated tend to vote right. >> By Yeah. Well, when you say uneducated, you just mean not college degree. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. High school diploma or equivalent.

Andrew Wilson>> I do believe that it is the case. Yes. That when it comes to the the voting record of people with college degrees, they tend to move more progressive. Yes.

Charlie (Feminist)>> That's the case. Yeah. Yeah. So my my point is again that uh educated people almost like 99% of the time end up marrying other educated people. People tend to marry people of the same social

Charlie (Feminist)status. >> Uh so >> or higher >> or higher. Yeah. Um so then would it would they not just be voting the same as their their husbands in that case as well?

Andrew Wilson>> Yeah, they are. So yeah, the white women are voting the same way as their husbands are. Yeah, >> but the case is voting. Most white Yeah. Most white men are not college educated, don't have college degrees, they have

Andrew Wilsontrade degrees. Most of them are smarter than the educated. And uh they vote right and their wives vote right along with them. But when they're not married, they tend not to they tend not to vote. Uh they they vote left, very much left.

Andrew WilsonAnd I can so we should have the social expectation that as marriage rates decrease for whites and they are decreasing rapidly that women will continue to vote left and men will continue to vote right. So it is a massive gender divide. It's a big

Andrew Wilsonproblem or sex divide right? >> I mean it just is objectively >> right. Um I mean sure I forgot what >> so if that's the case then women can well the point is is that women can vote

Andrew Wilsonagainst the interests of men. Now, maybe you could say that that's okay when it comes to democracy, but it's really not okay when it comes to things like warfare when they can vote to send men off to war. Like, that's that's just

Charlie (Feminist)like criminally unjust from my view. It's so unjust. >> This is going to be a tricky conversation. Um, but I would you could

Charlie (Feminist)make the same argument about abortion and I know that you know you believe that it is murder. Um, however, I hold

Charlie (Feminist)the view and I I want you to trust in me in the sense that uh you don't think that I would be very cool with like murdering babies.

Charlie (Feminist)>> So when I say I view it's not a baby. >> It's not a baby. It's not it's not yet. >> Um >> you don't consider that to be human life. Well, you consider scientifically

Andrew Wilsonyou consider it scientifically to be human life, but you don't consider life to begin until there's some sort of of cognitive sentience or something like this, right? >> Yeah. Something something to that degree. I think it was was it St.

Charlie (Feminist)Augustine that said when it starts to kick, that's when it's a person. Something like that. Um I think that abortion and birth control

Charlie (Feminist)because women are you know very much encumbered by our physical forms our our biological capacity to uh have children.

Charlie (Feminist)I think that the only way we can have equality is to have access to birth control and abortion um so that we can participate in the economy uh the same

Charlie (Feminist)way men can. So when men vote against women's interests and can force us to carry children and destroy our uh you

Charlie (Feminist)know our our avenue to freedom um financial freedom, financial independence, it strikes me the same way

Andrew Wilsonas as the draft does to you is I I feel like that's Yes. >> Uh here's something interesting though. M >> um let's just start with this cuz I think we should get our terms correct here.

Andrew Wilson>> Okay. >> When you say force, right, >> nobody actually forces you to have a child even if you can't abort it. Isn't that actually the case? Nobody's

Andrew Wilsonactually forcing you to do that. The the case is is that you're using what's called an ambiguous equivocation, which is a facious form of argumentation. The equivocation is that you would have us

Andrew Wilsonbelieve through the nebulousness of the language of the term force that somebody is using some type of physical compellence >> to make you do a thing when in fact the

Andrew Wilsontruth is is that they're not doing that at all. They're you're just simply not allowed to do a thing. That's different than forcing you to do a thing.

Charlie (Feminist)I mean, uh, so like, you know, a law that says I cannot drive in the left lane or I cannot drive, you know, >> yeah, >> I don't know, I can't go 100 miles per hour on the on the highway. Yes, I can technically do it, but there will be

Andrew Wilsonconsequences. Mostly, you know, most likely me probably dying in a horrible accident. >> Yeah. So, is a red light do you do you think that a red light is force?

Charlie (Feminist)>> Uh, no, but there's consequences. >> But it's not force. And that's same thing here. You have a law, but it's not there's no force that's being used. >> Technically, no one's forcing you to go to war. You could choose prison. You

Charlie (Feminist)could you uh what is it? What is the term for abandoning? >> Desertion. >> Desertion. Yeah, you could desert. [clears throat] Like you don't technically you aren't technically being

Charlie (Feminist)forced to do so. You could take the penalty for not signing up for the draft. You could >> the pen the penalty for draft dodging can be you get shot. That's a little bit different than >> is that is that the case? >> That's the case. Yeah.

Andrew Wilson>> Because there were a lot of people that dodged the draft >> and they were given um uh immunity basically from the government. They pardoned them. But it's not just imprisonment. If you do desertion, for

Brian Atlasinstance, you you can be shot and they shot people for desertion all the time. >> People were shot for deserting their post. >> Being forced to do it. >> My search here just on this topic. In

Brian Atlasthe USA, desertion is a serious offense and the penalty for desertion during a time during a time of war can be death, though other punishments like imprisonment are possible.

Andrew Wilson>> Okay. What about draft dodging? And what happens if you refuse to sign up for the draft? You can't vote. Is that essential? >> You can't vote. You can't buy a gun. There's there's uh there's other

Charlie (Feminist)penalties associated with it, too. >> Uh which have to do with tax filing. >> You're not being forced to do it. There will be severe consequences, >> but you technically don't have to sign up for the draft. It's no one's forcing you to. No one's holding a gun to your

Brian Atlashead and saying you must sign it. >> Do you want the penalties for draft dodging? >> Yes. >> It in it can include federal felonies like fines up to $250,000 and or up to 5 years in prison for

Brian Atlasfailing to register. Other consequences like state level restrictions on things like college eligibility or driver's licenses can occur. And uh I believe

Brian Atlasthere's some proclusion from receiving uh federal student loans and proclusion also from uh certain federal jobs. >> Yeah. So I understand the argument

Andrew Wilsonyou're making. The argument for equivalency here is wait a second. >> Um nobody's forcing you to do this to uh go off to war or something like this, right? Mhm.

Andrew Wilson>> I guess my argument there would be pretty easy, which is that um this is outside of your control. Drafting is outside of your control. >> Yeah.

Andrew Wilson>> Having a child is not outside of your control for almost any woman who's ever been pregnant. They're almost always pregnant and that's within their control. >> Yes. And so I don't think that men given

Andrew Wilsonthe punitive punishment of years in prison for felonies or potentially being shot for desertion even if they do go or um having the penalty raised for draft

Andrew Wilsonavoidance if we needed men which would probably be again you'd probably get shot. >> Um I don't think that these are equivalent statements because one you are being voted and force is to be used

Andrew Wilsonin order to compel you to do these things. Nobody's compelling you to get pregnant. Nobody ever forces you to get pregnant. >> Well, unless it's unless it's SA, right? But the thing is is like it does, but

Andrew Wilsonit's not it doesn't account for the majority of cases, >> the overwhelming majority of cases. >> And if it were the case that you argued to me, but in the case that I am forced, right? What about then?

Andrew Wilson>> I think that you would be able to negotiate that out with the other side. I think they would be willing to say in cases of essay, >> of incest, of things where force and compellance was used, they they have said many times that they would be

Andrew Wilsonwilling to negotiate that out if it stopped all of their abortions. But the left that so that's not really your argument because you want women to have that regardless. >> Well, the issue with that is that um

Charlie (Feminist)getting someone charged with essay, I'm sure you would agree, is a tedious and can be a very long process. So, how

Charlie (Feminist)would that work? If, let's say, uh, I was essay and I became pregnant and I showed up to, uh, Planned Parenthood in a state where, well, I guess they're closing the Planned Parenthoods. Um, and

Charlie (Feminist)I said, "I need an abortion. I was essay." And they go, "Okay, we need the paperwork to to prove that you were essay." I could potentially be looking at months, maybe even years of trying to

Charlie (Feminist)prove that I would I was, you know, essay. And in the meantime, I would be pregnant and then I would reach a point where uh an abortion would not make any sense. Um

Andrew Wilson>> well, let's even assume that you were able to negotiate this out in such a way where if you just made the claim that you were essayed and named whoever the victimizer was and you were in the

Andrew Wilsonprocess of that, then you could still get the smushmorion. But if it was determined that you were lying or made it up, then there was some sort of criminal penalty towards you. >> But what happens? Do you think that uh

Andrew Wilsonevery time a charge is dismissed that means that the accused is innocent? >> No. >> Because I think a lot of the time people do things >> by that same argument then I have reason to doubt the essay standards because do

Andrew Wilsonyou think that if a person is convicted that that means that they're guilty? >> No. Well, then if that's the case, then we have So, all we can do then is go off of go off of data unless it's

Andrew Wilsonquestionable data, right? What else can we do? Because the idea here of you just saying, well, you know, they may be innocent. It's like, okay, well, then that person who was convicted of essay may be not guilty, right? He may be

Andrew Wilsoninnocent and the person uh who's who's innocent may actually be guilty. It's hard to say, >> but in this case, if you went and you filed this, right, let's just say somehow we got it to where you actually could you could actually

Andrew Wilson>> move through the system very quickly in order to get this abortion if it was proven that it was it was due specifically to >> uh to rape, right? >> Mhm. >> Great. Got that.

Andrew WilsonBut that's not really what you want, right? You want unfettered access to abortion by every woman, don't you? >> Yeah. So it has so so any of these arguments the micronuanced arguments which are around rape and incest don't

Charlie (Feminist)really matter that much because ultimately that you don't >> I do have a lot of concerns about that being uh you know the the process of having to prove this to get that

Andrew Wilsonexemption. I do genuinely not out of self-interest but out of you know fear for other women and >> girls but assuming assuming that that was a possibility that we could expedite such a process quickly.

Andrew Wilson>> Yeah, I would still want abortion to >> becept. So then who cares where you're arguing over something that's uh almost inconsequential in comparison to the overwhelming amount of abortions which are done and they're done as a form of

Andrew Wilsonbirth control. Uh, I mean they're not frequently done. >> Yeah, they're frequently done. >> They're not rare. >> No, they're not rare. >> And they were always We were promised they were going to be rare, but they're

Charlie (Feminist)not rare. >> Lifetime occurrence. Actually, Brent, could you Google like >> uh what percentage of women have an abortion in their lifetimes? Because again, it is a form of birth. >> I think it's over 40% of women have one.

Brian Atlas>> Yeah. But are they having abortions every year or are they having one? I have it. According uh to the well that doesn't matter. An estimated 24.7% of women in the United States will have an abortion by the time they are 45.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Okay. >> And that translates to approximately one in four women. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, not quite as high as I thought, but one in four is still [ __ ] high. >> But it's it's I don't think that most

Charlie (Feminist)people get repeat abortions. It's usually the cases of that I think are fairly rare. Brian, I don't know if >> but why why does like frequency here matter? >> It's still being used as a form of birth control. That's the truth.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Think about a birth control. Birth control and we're thinking about uh you know like birth control is typically something you have to use every time you

Charlie (Feminist)engage in intercourse or it is a uh some sort of hormonal thing that you are you know using all the time. What I'm saying

Charlie (Feminist)is that abortion um it's this idea of it as like comparable to the pill or to a condom is >> well it's comparable only in the way that it's being used as a form of birth control. >> Yeah.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Yeah. >> I mean yeah I guess it's it's preventing a birth. Sure. >> Yeah. It's being so it's comparable to birth control because that's what birth control is doing. Preventing a birth. >> Yes. But it's a painful traumatic

Charlie (Feminist)process that most people do not want to undergo. It's like a last resort, you know, >> but >> it happens. >> Yeah. And as a form of birth control. [laughter]

Andrew Wilson>> So like that's and the most common forms of abortion are forms of birth control. So the thing is is like almost all women have an abortion not because they're essay or because of incest or their life is at risk,

Andrew Wilson>> but because they use it as a form of birth control. >> Well, it's because the birth control that they were using failed typically. >> So now they use this other form of birth control. Yes, >> I think we're saying the exact same thing here. I don't feel like we're even

Andrew Wilsonspeaking past each other. So, >> the thing is is like >> that to me is that's [ __ ] insane. First of all, like why would you why would you even want to advocate for a society in which female hormone birth

Andrew Wilsonhormonal birth control was even a thing anyway? It [ __ ] women up. Like it [ __ ] them all up. >> Um I mean >> it makes them all mental and [ __ ]

Charlie (Feminist)crazy and [ __ ] [ __ ] and all kinds of [ __ ] I mean it really depends on uh the the woman. I do think that hormonal

Charlie (Feminist)birth control by and large ass horrible but there are women who you know when I was uh 14 I when I sorry to TMI but I got my period and I got it for two

Charlie (Feminist)months straight. Um and so to fix that I was put on birth control for a while to balance that out so that I was not bleeding every single day of my life. Um, and then I was taken off of it.

Andrew WilsonThere's women with like PCOS. >> Maybe we can find common ground here. Hang on. Maybe we can do it this way. >> You want women to not have to have unwanted births? >> Yes. >> That's what you're after, right?

Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. >> Okay. I I think every child >> I I propose that if you take away birth control, hormonal birth control, and you take away condoms, that women will

Andrew Wilsonactually have less unwanted children because they'll have less sex because that that equals pregnancy. And my proof for this is that we can go back to a time not that long ago

Andrew Wilson>> before we had hormonal birth control and condoms >> and there was way less unwanted babies being born than there are right now when we have all those things. >> That was also

Charlie (Feminist)I think society expected you to have a child. However, I will concede. So, um the I did a debate like I think last

Charlie (Feminist)month about like uh do abortion laws meaningfully decrease uh abortions and what I saw from the data is that after you know abortion restrictions are in place there is a small spike in in

Charlie (Feminist)births but then it starts to decline at the same rate and then yeah uh in the surrounding states abortions go up. So, yes, it does work. I Yeah, like I guess it it does work, but

Charlie (Feminist)>> I mean, that sucks. >> Because you want to [ __ ] >> Well, I mean, okay, you're a married man. >> Yeah, but I mean, here's the thing. >> Presumably, you don't want, you know, 10 10 baby Wilsons running around. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Oh, sorry.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Mhm. Um like presumably you married couples don't want to be at risk for having children all the time especially as a woman grows older and the risk to her

Charlie (Feminist)body becomes more extreme where she could misaryry or uh you know die in the attempt um right like wouldn't wouldn't we want birth control to be accessible

Andrew Wilson>> I mean there's other alternatives right >> guess the pull out method could work >> no there's other alternatives to that too. Like women if they've had four kids, they often have their tube tied, right? >> Oh, yeah. That's

Andrew Wilson>> that's pretty that's pretty common because their health is at risk at that point. Yeah. >> Uh or there could be a possibility. Yeah. I've had seven children, you know, they have a vasectomy though. It's frowned on in religious practices,

Andrew Wilsonright? The tally. Yeah, of course. But the tubes being tied though, that's not right. That's for the health and the welfare of the mother. So, it's like there's other alternatives if you want to stop having children after you've had them. But the most common way in which

Charlie (Feminist)we could probably reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies is to stop [ __ ] each other. >> Well, and then the amount of children uh well, I mean, sure, why not? But I also

Charlie (Feminist)think that there will be more STI spreading. >> How could there be less or more STI if there's less sex? because the people who are having uh sex are having unprotected sex and it would most likely be >> Yeah, but there's going to be less

Andrew Wilsonpeople having unprotected sex because they don't want kids. >> That's the whole point. >> So, gay men cannot get pregnant. >> And that's my concern is

Andrew Wilson>> gay men rarely use any of that stuff anyway or if they do because of the nature of what it is that they do, their STI rates are like five times. No, I think they're higher than that. Can you

Andrew Wilsonlook up in comparison to the normal population how high it is? Uh, gay STI, they're they're like it's an astronomical difference.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Well, I mean, if you combine the male libido with no risk of pregnancy in both parties, uh, men typically have much higher libidos. >> But if you combine >> that's what happens. >> But this is the problem here with each

Andrew Wilsonother >> with promiscuity and sex and this type of thing, it's the same exact thing. You combine man woman. now with no risk of pregnancy and you end up with a promiscu promiscuous society. Our STI are higher than they've ever been in history.

Andrew WilsonThat's >> Do you think promiscuity is bad? >> Yeah, of course. It's terrible. Terrible idea. It's like it's just a terrible idea for the promotion of society. I mean, just not even just STI, which are just at an all-time [ __ ] high again. They're like,

Brian Atlas>> are they really? >> I I think they're higher than they've ever been. Again, we can look that up, but they're extremely high. I >> I do have ahead. Oh, do you want to I do have the statistic really quick. A 2018

Brian Atlasstudy found a 35% STI positivity rate among gay and bisex bisexual cisgender men compared to 15% for heterosexual

Charlie (Feminist)cisgender men. >> Yeah, [ __ ] higher way. And of course, like I said, it's because no risk of baby, two men with very very very high ris

Charlie (Feminist)the if the STI rates on the general population have been steadily increasing by age though because I do know that there's like STI booms in in elderly homes like like senior citiz.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Uh it's mostly because they're having sex with each other. >> No, >> I I have uh two >> because of elder I'm telling you >> I mean elder abuse Super duper real. Super duper real. But

Brian Atlas>> uh two data points here for you really quick on the first one from before. The syphilis rate for gay and by men was 309

Brian Atlascases per 100,000 while for heterosexual men it was just 2.9 per 100,000 much higher rate. And then the general

Brian AtlasSTI rate over time it says overall in the US the STI rates have seen a sub substantial increase over the past decade. If you want I can find you going back further.

Andrew Wilson>> Well they've been they've been increasing because people people have a lot more promiscuous sex with multiple partners. >> My generation is having like I don't know if you've seen that stat. My

Andrew Wilsongeneration uh is having less sex than older generations. Correct. Gen Z is like less >> not the women. Look it up. >> It's basically just the men who are having less sex. Women are having tons

Andrew Wilsonof sex with >> the same I know are like [laughter] nuns. >> Huh. >> Most of the women I know are like nuns. >> Well, that's nice, I guess. But the case of the matter is or the fact of the

Andrew Wilsonmatter is is that yeah, they're they're promiscuous. There's a lot of promiscuity. It's led to an huge increase in STI. It's not just that, but that's where all the unwanted pregnancies come from anyway and why you

Andrew Wilsonhave all these abortions. And the same reason that you see them decrease exponentially and unwanted pregnancies decrease exponentially after abortions outlawed is for the same reason if we got rid of birth control. You would see unwanted pregnancies decrease rapidly

Andrew Wilsonbecause people wouldn't be [ __ ] if they thought it was going to lead to a kid. You might see herpes increase though. Mouth herpes probably mouth herpes increases a bit, but uh >> and stuff in the butt.

Andrew Wilson>> Still better still better than the alternative. >> Um >> and so the thing is is like I don't see how that's liberating society or helping society at all. Well, you know what

Andrew Wilsonyou're advocating for. It seems to me like we're back to the limit debate. Is it the case that we can limit behaviors in society for the good of society just like you did with CO? I think we can and I think it's fine.

Andrew Wilson>> I don't think that uh limiting abortion benefits society. >> I mean, how does it not? It seems to significantly benefit society. It's we

Andrew Wilsonhave less abortions. That's great, right? The the whole point the whole point of abortion is you want to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. we're giving you a way to get have unwanted pregnancies go away, right? And they do

Andrew Wilsongo away. The unwanted pregnancies drastically decrease. So, it's like what? >> Well, I mean, people are still going to get pregnant, though, because people are still going to have have >> Yeah. But, I mean, we can't Here's the

Andrew Wilsonthing, though, right? It's like we're not going to be able It's like murder. Like, people are still going to murder, you know? There's nothing. There's still going to be people who do the thing, but for the overwhelming majority of people, they don't.

Charlie (Feminist)>> You see, abortion as something that is innately bad while I see it as something innately good because again it >> wait it's good in of itself >> uh I mean what it means >> should a woman get pregnant just to go have an abortion

Charlie (Feminist)>> no that's crazy >> all right again but is it bad >> to get pregnant just >> just to go have an abortion >> I think it's weird >> is it bad >> I would question that person >> but is it bad

Charlie (Feminist)>> is it bad I mean probably it's a drain on resources um >> that's that could go to other people. >> They pay for it. >> Well, yeah, but it's a waste of

Andrew Wilsoneveryone's time. >> How? Everyone's getting paid. >> Everyone's getting Yeah, but then, you know, women who are >> like, what? How could that possibly be a worse race of resources than, oh, I had a gang bang last night and got knocked

Andrew Wilsonup with this? How's that not just as much of a waste of resources as chick who's like, well, I'm just going to go and have sex in order to get pregnant to go have an abortion for fun. Like, how

Andrew Wilsonis one more of a train on resources than the other?

Charlie (Feminist)>> Because one of them is crazy. I don't know. This is a >> They're both [ __ ] crazy. They're both [ __ ] crazy. >> Have you heard of women intentionally getting pregnant to have an abortion? >> Cuz I don't know if you know this, but that's not the That's not the point of the question.

Andrew Wilson>> Abortions are >> Yeah, but the point of the question isn't to determine if there's >> It's like breaking your leg to go to the doctor. That's weird. That's an insane. That's great. But that the point of the question is like you said that they're just inherently good.

Andrew Wilson>> And it's like if that's the case, then if a woman just got pregnant to go have one, she's doing something good. >> No, that's not what I mean. Then they're not inherently good. What they what they provide for women? >> No, you just >> in the sense that it provides our uh

Andrew Wilson>> You just mean the outcomes are good. >> Yes, the outcomes are positive. Sure. The outcome is >> But which ones? which which posit because if I can give you more positive

Andrew Wilsonoutcomes for what you want which is less kids who you uh who are being born that that parents don't want it seems like I provide that society better than you do

Charlie (Feminist)with abortion so like what outcomes here what what outcomes are better from your view that you're providing that I'm not >> well again when I talked about the abortion statistics uh you know abortions did go up in surrounding states so

Charlie (Feminist)>> that's because they were legal there come on >> well yes but what I mean is that the people who were having abortions in those states >> left to to you know rather than get them in the state where it's illegal they got more

Andrew Wilson>> abort only some did and they still ended up going down right >> no abortion rates went up I believe >> where only temporarily and then dropped >> no um birth rates went up temporarily

Andrew Wilsonand then dropped >> yes birth rates yes so unwanted births >> but in the surrounding states >> yeah they go up >> abortions did go up >> yeah but they don't go up by the same amount as the predictive abortions in

Andrew Wilsonthe state would have been. So like let's say the state had 50 abortions a day. You don't see the state next to it now increase by that same 50. You might see it increase by like 20 or 15 a day. You

Andrew Wilsonknow what I mean? That's more realistic to what it is. So it does reduce abortion and it reduces unwanted pregnancy. And the whole idea of abortion from your view is getting rid of the unwanted pregnancy. I thought

Andrew Wilsonthat's the point. So if we have a way in which we can have it sounds like you just basically are like I just want people to be able to [ __ ] That's what it sounds like you >> I mean I think it comes from a place of understanding that people will [ __ ]

Andrew Wilson>> they but they don't though they don't seem to it seems like if abortion is not available to them and unwanted pregnancy right is still not there the the the birth rates are not increasing then how do you how do you account for

Andrew Wilsonthat? >> Do we want a sexless nation? >> It's not a sexless nation. There's still plenty of people who are married and [ __ ] and having children at the right times. But I I kind of do think

Andrew Wilsonyes. Actually, yes. Do I want a nation in which uh promiscuous sex is gone? Yeah, kind of. Like what can you tell me what what what's great about it? Tons of

Andrew WilsonSTI everywhere. The STI rate increases, right? Uh the fact of the matter is is that you have women who have been, you know, screwed by 20 or 30 men and men

Andrew Wilsonwho have screwed 20 or 30 women. Uh yeah, that doesn't seem like it's very good for the moral fabric of your society or for your society at all. And so it's like if we can if we can get rid of the thing you want, which is the

Andrew Wilsonunwanted pregnancy, and it seems like the unwanted pregnancies decrease when you get rid of abortion anyway, it sounds like it's like a big winner here. So, we have like an entire incel

Andrew Wilsonmovement that I think has been uh labeled a domestic terrorist threat in the sense that there are >> by [ __ ] liberals. It has I wish I wish that we could label feminist as a

Charlie (Feminist)domestic terrorist organization. >> Can you can you would you deny that there have not been uh you know mass shooters motivated by uh

Andrew Wilson>> do you deny that trans ideology has motivated mass shooters? Do we label them as being domestic terrorists? >> No, I think uh No, we don't. >> No, we don't. >> Um, but that's different. That's like an

Andrew Wilsonidentity rather than a problem to be solved. I think that >> Wait, wait, what? No, it's a problem to be solved. Or they'll say they wouldn't become trans to begin with. They have a problem and they're trying to solve it. It's not just a matter of identity. It's

Andrew Wilsona matter of problem solution. >> Medication and surgery and whatnot. Whereas like involuntary celibates, I just feel like >> involuntary celibates also if it's a problem to be solved. They get buff and

Andrew Wilson[ __ ] a chick. And that's the same [ __ ] right? You have a problem, you're solving it. Just like the trans, they're having a problem, they're solving it. That's from your view, isn't that the same thing? >> Then why are all the men on the internet complaining that they are loveless and

Andrew Wilsoncan't find women in >> So are women. They just do it at a different age. See, women in their 20s, they don't complain too much because, you know, if you go right now and you show your a picture of your ass on the internet, you're going to have 20,000

Andrew Wilsonguys who go, "Oh my god, my lady. Oh, it's the greatest thing ever." And that stops when you get older. Stops when you're 40, 45, 50. That validation starts going away. So, women in those

Andrew Wilsonage brackets have huge loneliness epidemics as well. It's just that's the case, right? It just happens to them at different times in life. And then men who get older, >> Uhhuh. >> less lonely the older they get. Why? Because they have resources and they

Charlie (Feminist)start [ __ ] young women. [laughter] That's how it works. >> Uh well, I think that also, you know, that would uh depend upon what the woman has done with her life. My mother

Charlie (Feminist)had no shortage of suitors um who were wealthier than her and typically younger than her um up until her 50s. Uh and all

Andrew Wilsonof her friends seemed to do pretty well, pretty well. um in their in their old >> I mean but your anecdotal your anecdotal side anecdotal there is a male it is

Andrew Wilsontrue there's a male loneliness epidemic crisis and we are >> and we do hyperfocus on that but the truth is is that's the case for women too if the men are lonely

Andrew Wilson>> then and there's as many women as there are for men right then shouldn't by the power of inference here we determine that if the men are lonely

Charlie (Feminist)>> Mhm. the women also would be lonely. >> But you just said that young women uh have far more opportunities. So we're talking about different age ranges. >> Yeah, it was because younger women are

Charlie (Feminist)basically all [ __ ] the same guy, same few handfuls of men through hypergamy. >> So what we have is an issue here where young women uh you know have many many many choices. Young men have very few.

Andrew Wilson>> Well, they have choices of who to sleep with, not necessarily who to be with. >> Yeah. And young what you're talking about with young men is like the young men who just can't get laid at all which I don't think is a huge amount by the way.

Andrew Wilson>> And by the way you see a lot of young men moving towards traditional churches and that's another reason why you see the celibate rate going up. I have uh I

Charlie (Feminist)personally doubt the sincerity of the movement towards those churches. Um just based on

Charlie (Feminist)>> I feel that so I was raised very very very religious. Um but I was raised by a father who was raised atheist, converted

Charlie (Feminist)after my parents divorced. Um, and he later told me, "Yeah, I thought it was all BS." Like, I was never actually into it. It was just kind of something I

Charlie (Feminist)needed at the time. And I I do feel that people who are raised without a strong religious influence growing up. I it causes me to doubt the sincerity of

Charlie (Feminist)their conversion because I often feel like they don't believe it. What they want is a community or they want some sort of moral high ground. so to speak. Um because that's been my experience with converts. I've had friends who

Andrew Wilsonconverted to Christian, but I don't disagree. Yeah, there's some >> some >> Yeah, >> I'm not I'm not >> And if they're not abiding, >> I don't think that that's the I don't think the majority of people are uh

Andrew Wilsonconverting over to Christianity, especially rigorous traditional churches just for the community. >> I think that some may be doing that, but it doesn't seem likely that it would be

Charlie (Feminist)the vast majority of them. It's just it's a it's an attitude that I've seen uh encountered in a lot of um younger men where they'll kind of

Charlie (Feminist)lionize uh Christianity and traditional churches, but the way that they live is not Christlike at all. >> Um >> maybe it's good time for super chats, Brian. I'll have a smoke and then uh and then we can get back to actual feminism

Andrew Wilsonhere. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, no problem. Yep. Yep. No problem. >> Yeah. So, I don't know. I feel like we're getting off into the weeds about a little bit >> about about [ __ ] that doesn't matter

Andrew Wilsonreally. Has nothing to do with anything. >> So, kind of back to feminism. >> Mhm. >> Is the whole reason you're a feminist so that you can have abortion or is there other reasons? >> Um, well, you know, I actually have a

Charlie (Feminist)list of uh >> Yeah, let's go through those >> ways that feminism I mean, if we're talking about me personally, uh, well, the 19th amendment, women women can vote. Um, >> yeah. What's so great about voting

Charlie (Feminist)anyway? >> I like to have at least a little bit of a voice um in a country that I am paying taxes to and intend to spend the rest of my life in. >> So, it is it is about power, personal power.

Andrew Wilson>> Yes, I would I would like to have as much say if I'm putting as much into society as someone else, I think. >> Well, then I guess it does matter to contradict your earlier point that voting didn't really matter when it came to war. It appears that you think it does because

Andrew Wilson>> I said a small amount of power. Well, a small amount of power collectively power >> small amount of power collectively over a gender can mean a large amount of power. >> Vote to send people to war. We're not given the vote. The president decides

Charlie (Feminist)>> you get to vote for the president. >> Well, yes, but I mean we can't necessarily trust that everybody says we're not going to send someone to war. >> It's not the president, it's Congress

Andrew Wilsonwho gets to authorize war. But the president himself, yes, he has a lot of power to mobilize troops for police actions and things like that. But that aside, what's the next issue? >> Um, birth control and Roie Wade.

Charlie (Feminist)Obviously, we talked about that. >> Mhm. >> I want the freedom to uh, you know, I suppose like someone who has um,

Charlie (Feminist)glasses. I want the freedom to have my uh, the things about my body that potentially inhibit my ability to participate in society. Um, I want to be

Charlie (Feminist)able to mitigate those things with with medicine and technology. Um, and then, uh, equal pay act. I want to be paid the same as someone who's doing the same work. I think that's a positive. Do you

Andrew Wilsonthink that um well well first of all how much do you think the the the difference is the difference is between even if we were really charitable to the idea of a wage gap

Charlie (Feminist)>> what do you think the difference really is between wages? >> Well I mean there's a law against that there a law that was passed so that's what I'm referring to. Um, however, the wage gap isn't based on like it's not like you work at a company and I don't

Charlie (Feminist)know, you're employee one, I'm employee two, we both started working at the same time. They're not like, oh, cuz you're a lady, you make 71 cents on his dollar. I do believe that the wage gap refers to um backing the difference in in like the average salary.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Yeah. So, we're not talking about a wage gap. We're talking about you want legislation which equalizes wages. >> Yeah. Equalizes wages if you're doing the same job with the same amount of experience. You know, it's uh equality. Um,

Andrew Wilson>> so doesn't that limit the freedom and authority of the owner of the business >> to screw people over? >> Yeah. >> Again, I I think that >> wait, how could you be screwing someone over if if you make an agreement with me

Charlie (Feminist)for the amount that I'm willing to pay you for a job? How how are you being screwed over? I mean, I think if you're, you know, uh, making that decision on the basis of someone's,

Charlie (Feminist)um, immutable qualities such as sex, uh, or race, I think that that's pretty is is that not unjust? >> No. Why is that unjust? Why can't

Andrew Wilson>> doing the same work? >> Yeah. So, what why can't uh business owners have preferences about what they want? So, like for instance, let's say you had a business owner who's like, "Yeah, I don't want to hire you just cuz you're a woman."

Charlie (Feminist)Like, why isn't that their business? >> Because I don't think that people should have the freedom to screw over other people. Um, >> but you're not screwing them over. They're asking you for your resources. You're not asking them for theirs.

Charlie (Feminist)>> You're you're trying to screw them over. >> The guy who Do you think that you know people who a company is just its head? I mean, workplaces aren't run only by a manager. it staff is what keeps the place going.

Andrew Wilson>> Well, it depends on how big the business is for one. And the second thing is is that uh even if it is a large business, >> it should be up up to the propriety of the owner. He has access to all the capital and all of those managers and

Andrew Wilsonemployees are asking him for his capital. He's not asking >> the ones that are making that capital for him with his guidance. They're producing that capital. >> No, they didn't risk any capital. They risked no capital and so they don't get

Andrew Wilsonwhat he gets. That's the big problem. socialists always have. >> You don't if you don't risk capital, you don't get to gain. >> Like, you don't get to be like, I happen to be working here when that guy risked all of his [ __ ] money uh and he made

Andrew Wilsona bunch of it and so now I get a portion of it. That's not how the world works. >> I mean, you're talking about small businesses. >> Small businesses, the same thing. And big business is the same exact thing. You're still risking money that ain't yours. So, you don't get to benefit from

Andrew Wilsonthat. That's how that works. You have to risk your own money for that. And so the thing is is like, yeah, it seems like you have people who are asking for for economic opportunities from somebody else and they're getting mad when they won't give it to them. And it's like,

Charlie (Feminist)how's that not their business, though? It seems like it's totally the business of the owner. >> I guess you can have, you know, you could you could do that. You could look down on your employees and consider them to be people that are uh you're doing a

Andrew Wilsonfavor for rather than, you know, skilled workers that you're hiring. >> I'm not even sure it's a favor. And I'm I think that that's the wrong wording. Like it's not a favor. It's >> someone can open a business, but if they don't have anyone to work in it, like

Andrew Wilsonwhat is what is the business then? Yes. They risk the money. >> Well, people have small businesses all the time and just they r it. It's only them. >> Yeah. It's Yeah. >> And then most often when they hire an employee, the that employee doesn't have anywhere near the responsibility or risk

Andrew Wilsonthat the owner has. >> No. Of I'm not saying they make the same amount, but you know, a fair wage for the same amount of work, >> but that should be determined by the employer. what that fair wage is. Not by the state. The state, by the way, the state can't even do it anyway. They

Andrew Wilsondon't have any understanding of markets at all. So, the the thing is is like just saying like >> Mhm. >> I'm trying to figure this out. A woman

Andrew Wilsoncomes in or even even better, right? Um a a Christian comes in and a Muslim and I say, "Okay, well, I'll hire you cuz you're a Christian and not you cuz you're a Muslim." >> What's actually the immoral proposition

Andrew Wilsonhere? Why is that actually wrong to do? I've never understood that argument. It's always seemed to me like it's fine. They're both asking me, the person, for something. Why can't I tell them to go [ __ ] themselves and I only want you because I prefer you and don't prefer

Andrew Wilsonyou. And it is based on an immutable characteristic. And who cares? [ __ ] [ __ ] your immutable character. I don't like it. So, get it out of here. >> Well, I would like to work towards a

Charlie (Feminist)world in which our immutable characteristics uh don't determine how much we value someone. Well, I mean, but that's just pie in the sky [ __ ] isn't it? Like, if you have a hump, >> I think we've done a good job at

Charlie (Feminist)working. Oh my god. If you look at where America was when when we were founded. I mean, there was uh black Americans were were enslaved and

Andrew Wilsonnow we are, you know, legally equal. That is certainly a lot better. That is certainly a lot of progress made. >> Yeah. But we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about

Andrew Wilsonthe proposition of slavery. The proposition of being able to hire who you want and allocate your resources to people with whom you want to. Like for instance, uh you're not going to hire a

Andrew Wilsonhumpback, a hunchback or a person who has like um super bad arthritis to like you know solder things. Probably not going to hire them. You're you're probably going to stay away from from those people. And you're like

Andrew Wilson>> there's physical requirements for jobs sometimes. But the thing is is like >> that's still when you when you break it down, you start getting into these micro preferences, right? >> Like

Andrew Wilson>> if it's the case that you just don't like a person because they just offend your se your delicate sensibilities in some way. >> Well, technically you don't have to hire them. You just can't be like, "Hey, I didn't hire Andrew because he's a white

Andrew Wilsonguy." Like you just have to just lie about it. So just lie about it. >> That's what [laughter] they That's what they do. >> Yeah. So that's what they do. So then doesn't it just sound like it's just an uninforcable virtue signal? Just uninforceable nonsense? >> Um

Charlie (Feminist)>> so like I could be like look I only have a male staff because those are the most qualified people. >> I think that if you can prove that you are being discriminated against uh on an immutable quality. Um this is for

Andrew Wilsonworkers to be able to you know bring this to court which I think that if you can prove that you should be able to bring it to >> Yeah. But what's but why like what's what's the actual like what's the actual

Andrew Wilsonproposition here? You own a business. You have all of those resources. They all belong to you. All of them belong to you. >> Um and somebody comes in and wants them. And you don't just don't like their

Andrew Wilson[ __ ] fa. And it doesn't matter why you don't like them cuz they're black, they're white, they're Muslim, they're women, they're men, whatever the [ __ ] reason is, right? Why isn't that completely and totally up to the business owner? Why shouldn't that be

Charlie (Feminist)completely left up to them who they want to hire and who they don't want to hire? >> Well, I think that many businesses uh take out loans from the from the state. Correct. Like PPE loans. Um and >> no, most of it's private equity.

Charlie (Feminist)>> All right. Well, I think if you're going to uh take out loans, as in a lot of the time use other people's money. I think a lot of people would be uh upset if the money that they loaned you was not, you know, >> they don't give a [ __ ] Lenders just

Charlie (Feminist)want their money back in the interest. They don't care about your pract but like I think you need to adhere to the law if you're borrowing money. Otherwise then it's like what if your business I'm saying that I want to repeal the law. I think it's an immoral proposition to

Andrew Wilsontell people what they can do with their money. I think that that's immoral. So I'm giving you the proposition >> right my worldview it's completely immoral to tell business owners that they have to serve people that they

Andrew Wilsondon't want to serve and that they're not allowed to have the hiring practices that they want. Like it's totally their business. >> This isn't even about hiring practices. This is about wages. This is paying >> that would be that would all be hiring practices. Right.

Andrew Wilson>> Right. Because like >> because don't you get a salary on being hired? >> I mean it depends. You could have minimum wage or a salary. Like I don't >> that would still be your salary would then be minimum wage. But at at being

Andrew Wilsonhired your hiring practice would be the salary negotiation, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the thing is is like I have never again I I I claim I make the

Charlie (Feminist)counter claim comes from the fact that like, you know, employers would pay women less to do the same amount of work. >> But I'm fine with that, >> okay? >> And I'm fine with it being the opposite.

Andrew WilsonI actually see that as the mo more moral proposition. If it's the case that it's yours, you get to do what the [ __ ] you want with it cuz it's yours. And it doesn't matter if that makes a person feel badzy and they're like, "Well,

Andrew Wilsonwait, that's that's unfair." Fairness isn't uh isn't an idea of of a doctrine when you're when you want something from somebody else. It's not how that works, right? >> I'm trying to This is hard because I

Charlie (Feminist)don't know if uh I could ever make a comparison, but you are a Christian. >> Yeah. >> Does it not make you feel

Charlie (Feminist)some type of way whenever people discount you or disregard you or uh exclude you on the basis of your religion? Oh, sure. Yeah. >> Right. Like it doesn't It feels bad. >> Or they call me a bad Christian or they

Charlie (Feminist)call me this. Yeah. It feels bad. Sure. >> It feels bad. And you're like, that's just my beliefs in my religion. It's not harming anyone. I'm just a Christian. >> Like, how could that how could Like, it's the same feeling for

Andrew Wilson>> race and gender. It's like, I'm a competent worker. Why am I not being paid the same amount? The difference is this is that it doesn't matter if it hurts my feelings that a Muslim says he

Andrew Wilsonwon't hire me because I'm a Christian. Right. Uh because it's me who wants the thing from him. >> Mhm. >> Right. Now, you could say there's mutual he wants something from me, too. But if he really wanted something from me, then he would hire me. Right. >> Mhm.

Andrew Wilson>> And he's not. >> Well, he's hiring you for less. >> Well, they just or he's just or he's just not hiring me at all. >> Yeah. >> Right. But whatever it is, he wants less from me than I obviously want from him >> or else we would never be able to come

Andrew Wilsonto an agreement on wage. So the thing is is like it it seems it seems like a more much more moral proposition to me that you get to determine that if a person has their own private equity and

Andrew Wilsonresources and don't want to pay you less just because you're a woman, that's that seems like it's their business. >> I mean,

Charlie (Feminist)I don't think so. I think that you know creates a society where uh you know >> where you maximize freedom >> devaluing others on the basis of their immutable qualities. >> Yeah. But you're allowed to devalue

Andrew Wilsonothers based on their immutable qualities. You're allowed to do that. Isn't that freedom? >> You're allowed but you get in trouble for it. >> Yeah. But isn't that Well, then how is this really this idea of feminism is about expanding personal freedom? It's

Andrew Wilsonlike every time I talk to you about a topic, it's just limiting a freedom. Every time I talk to you about any proposition that you consider liberating, it's actually just punishing. It's like, this isn't really

Andrew Wilsonabout being fair to men and women, it's about punishing people and telling them what they have to do with their own money. >> No, let me let me explain to you what I mean about freedom of choice. >> Yeah, do that. But let me have a smoke first while you take some super

Brian Atlas>> chat. Uh, really quick, Andrew, uh, as you're getting up here, uh, behind you, just as because of your black ex-wife, um, and as a seat warmer, can you grab the baby doll and just put it as a

Brian Atlasplaceholder there to >> it? >> Long story. >> It's a long story, but um, so Andrew will be right back. He's just going to have a quick >> smoke, Junior.

Brian Atlas>> There you go. >> Uh, so uh, welcome. What What's your baby's name, by the way, Andrew? Tyrone Wilson. >> Tyrone Wilson. Uh, welcome, Tyrone. Um,

Brian Atlasso, a couple quick things here, guys, while Andrew takes a, uh, little smoke break. If you guys want to get in a Q&A

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Brian Atlassub. If you're enjoying the stream, uh, pull up the Twitch.

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Brian Atlassingle month. Let me adjust here. I just realized my computer's not centered. My OCD is on fire. Um, we also have merch shop whatever.com.

Brian AtlasGo ahead, pull that up, please. All right, we got t-shirts. Uh, scroll down a little bit. We're selling uh Oh,

Brian Atlasrefresh this. Hit hit uh F5. Hit F5 on that. I need to show you what our merch offering here. >> What was that shirt? Which one? >> Big Labia Matters.

Brian Atlas>> Oh, that's uh that's my um I have a nonprofit organization. HashtagBLM. I'll know. Are are you a supporter? Are you hashtag BLM? >> I'm pro I'm pro BLM.

Brian Atlas>> Good. Pull it back up, please. Uh that's my organization nonprofit. 10,000 laboplasties a year in the United States. Absolute tragedy. >> I agree. Yeah. >> You know, the government shut down. Uh what what else is that? There's wars and

Brian Atlasstuff, but the BLM thing is the most pressing issue of of our time. Pull it back up, though. Uh, we're selling Madison's Picklehoba. We have like two or three of them that we're selling. Uh, so there's that. Then there's some other

Brian Atlasmerch there, too. Also, guys, if you're enjoying the stream, if you're enjoying the stream, you want to see more debates, maybe we'll get Charlie back on, you want to see more stuff with uh Andrew Wilson, like the video, guys. Like the video. Andrew is going to be

Brian Atlasback here in just one minute. He is uh finishing up his cigarette. Uh so stay tuned. Don't go anywhere. Also, I figure why not? Uh we got a course, Debb

Brian AtlasUniversity, if you want to learn how to become a master debater like uh Andrew Wilson and also Charlie here. Both of them are master debaters. Uh really the best.

Brian Atlas>> I'm flattered because I surely you don't mean that. >> I don't even want to know what the sound is. What sound it is? Um, well, [laughter] you guys are good. I don't.

Brian Atlas>> So, be sure to check it out. debateuniversity.com. And also, guys, discord.gg/w whatever. Pull that up. We post a bunch of behindthescenes stuff. Uh, Andrew will be here for our dating talk tomorrow,

Brian AtlasSunday, 5:00 p.m. Pacific. I post a bunch of behindthe-scenes stuff. We had some a lot of flakes. Keep it there, Mary. No, keep it there. We had a lot of flakes. So, I you know, if there flake

Brian Atlasis ridiculous, I'm going to post it. In this case, uh, she flaked. This could be our biggest show of the year, by the way. Biggest dating talk of the year. She's on her period, so she can't make it. Um,

Brian Atlasmaybe, you know, you guys were talking about the wage gap. Maybe that's a reason why that might exist. So, yeah. Um, discord.gg whatever. Be sure

Brian Atlasto join. Be sure to join. We post our stream schedule, by the way. Andrew, you need you need some You need alcohol? Have you >> uh what what do you want? You want a seltzer or >> No. >> No. >> Anything else?

Brian Atlas>> Uh reach up there. There's some like I think there's uh what is it? Whiskey or something? >> Yeah, I'll take it. >> Yeah, just let him chug from it. Um we

Brian Atlashave Andrew returning to the table. So, final reminder, guys. Q&A. >> I came back this time, Junior. >> I came back this time. [laughter]

Brian Atlasthe one below it. Yeah, there you go. Rock and roll. All right. Uh, we have Andrew returning. So, let me see if there were any chats

Brian Atlasthat came through while we did that. Or we might just actually hold them for a break a little bit later. Uh, all right. If you guys want to just jump right back into it. Charlie, do you need any

Brian Atlasrefreshments or anything? Would you like uh We have energy drinks. How's How's your energy? >> Is it good? Energy is good, but I could always use a reup. >> You You want like a energy drink? >> Sure. What do you >> Mary? Uh we have Zo Zoa.

Brian Atlas>> They're natural >> and or And we have just energy shots, too. >> Zo is final. I don't >> uh pour it into a one of our cups, by the way.

Brian AtlasAll right, we're going to get that set for you guys here. Uh well, we're gonna >> Sorry, we're getting We're finally getting into the meat of the debate here, guys. >> Yeah. And uh so no chats at the moment.

Charlie (Feminist)No Q&A questions. So if you guys want to just jump right back in. >> Yeah. >> Go for it. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So you were saying about >> Oh. Uh freedom to go to school. I'm I'm

Charlie (Feminist)super personally very personally. Thank you very much. Very into uh education. I very much enjoyed my education. I know it's a useless degree largely. I mean

Charlie (Feminist)fantasy literature. Um, however, my younger sister uh is premed at Duke and I think that that is something very worthy. Uh, I think it's very important

Charlie (Feminist)that she is able to to pursue that. So, again, freedom freedom to do so. Uh, freedom to >> Yeah, go ahead. >> go into uh, you know, as long as you

Charlie (Feminist)have the skills to be able to go into any career field. Um, and that goes for men and women. I think that, you know, we should have more men working in

Charlie (Feminist)education and uh, you know, like child care, elderly care. I think that we should have more women in trade. Um, I I think it's a lot of people assume women

Charlie (Feminist)can't do trade, but my ex-girlfriend who was 90 pounds 51 became a welder. So, I think I think I think ladies can manage most of the trades. Um, >> they can't.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Well, they can weld. >> Yeah. Well, uh, weld. Well, what kind of welding did she do? End of the mic, by the way. >> Oh, I don't remember. We broke up ages ago, but she was starting her apprenticeship. >> She was starting her apprenticeship.

Andrew Wilson>> According to my mom who kept up with her, she finished it, but I never >> Does she work as a welder? >> I don't know. I haven't talked to her in years. >> Yeah, I think uh I think that that's a bit of pie in the sky. I guess my

Andrew Wilsoncounterargument to all of these is that basically every proposition you give me for what you think is expansion of freedom, which according to your definition is what feminism is for. Uh can we read the definition again that we

Charlie (Feminist)agreed on real quick? >> I think it was uh feminism equal egalitarian equity and the removal of patriarchy. That's just what I wrote down. Mhm. And uh you think that the

Andrew Wilsonpoint of feminism though from your view also is to expand freedom for people. That was what >> uh Yes. >> Not to have the freedom to >> do the [clears throat] things you don't like. >> No. To take other people's freedom.

Charlie (Feminist)>> Well, you're not taking anybody's freedom by not hiring them. I think that you are creating an environment uh in in which people's immutable qualities um impact how much

Andrew Wilsonmoney they can actually make. >> Yeah. But that's freedom, >> you know. Freedom for who? >> It's freedom for both parties. >> Freedom for employers, but not for workers. >> They're free, too. Well, how are they not free? What are they not free to do?

Andrew WilsonTo tell you what you have to do with your money? To tell you what you have to do with your resources? They're just as free. Like what is the impact here on freedom? Exactly. Like in a if you wanted real freedom, if you wanted a

Andrew Wilsonsociety that was truly free, you would not go in and legislate how employers could um could go about the rigorism of who they wanted to hire, who they didn't want to hire, and why. >> Libertarian.

Andrew Wilson>> No, I'm not a libertarian at all. Christian >> sounds a bit libertarian. >> No, no, no. It's it's following Christian ethics. The the idea here is like we don't we you don't get to make a determination

Andrew Wilsonan unjustified determination at that. You just have this kind of like bizarre thing that you said you start with. People shouldn't be discriminated against based on immutable

Andrew Wilsoncharacteristics. And it's like >> why the [ __ ] not? If if it's the case that they want resources from you that are yours and you don't want to give them to them, why the [ __ ] not? Why can't you discriminate? What's the what what about that is justified from your

Charlie (Feminist)view? >> Did Jesus discriminate against anyone on the basis of their immutable characteristics? >> Well, based on immutable characteristics. >> Mhm. >> I don't I'm not sure like um I'm I'm not

Charlie (Feminist)sure that he did. No. >> All right. Well, isn't uh to be a long time >> I don't think that spirit I don't think that spiritually we should do that >> we I mean shouldn't we aspire [clears throat] to be Christlike?

Andrew Wilson>> Yeah. spiritually. >> So giving loving uh you know um >> Yeah, sure. So let's go to the money changers and whip them and let's go tell prostitutes to stop being hookers. Can we do that? >> Yeah, but we do so with love and

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