WALK OFF?! Andrew Wilson vs. RAGING Feminist?! BOW Video 2.0?! She TESTED Him?! | Dating Talk #202

Date: 2024-10-07

Duration: 7h 54m

Guests

Brian Atlas

AAndrew Wilson >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_00TTS/Chat(audience)

SPEAKER_02Rachel(guest)

SPEAKER_03Elby(guest)

SPEAKER_04Emma(guest)

SPEAKER_05Arina/Bianca (mixed)(guest)

SPEAKER_06Andrew Wilson(guest)

SPEAKER_11Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_12TTS/Chat(audience)

SPEAKER_13Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)(guest)

SPEAKER_14Irene(guest)

Key Moments

IntroFull guest introduction round: Arina, Rachel, Bianca, Elby, Emma, Morgan, Ana, Brian Atlas, Andrew Wilson.

“hi my name is Arina ... my name is Andrew Wilson I'm the host of The Crucible”

OtherArina reveals she loyalty-tested a new boyfriend one week after he asked her to be his girlfriend. DMd 20 women from his following list; he agreed to fly them out. He broke up with her when he found out, citing health issues and family problems.

“I got to I got to ask ... I DM'd 20 girls from his following list”

Key MomentSelf-ratings round. Guests rate looks 1-10 (no 7). Arina=8, next guests=6.5. Andrew Wilson jokes he is a 10. Discussion of whether women peak in attractiveness with age.

“ask everyone to rate their looks on a scale of one to 10 you can't pick seven ... probably eight ... 6 and a half”

ControversyBOW video 2.0 shown. Brian asks if women would bow for their partner. Panel largely refuses. Andrew points out contradiction: women perform sexual acts for near-strangers but won't bow for a committed partner.

“boom huge bow huge bow ... the same woman that says I would never bow for a man will suck a guy's dick within 30 minutes of meeting him”

ControversyAndrew Wilson debates Irene on whether tarot cards are compatible with Christianity, citing Leviticus 19:26 and 20:27. Irene defends her practice as a personal spiritual gift and says she is still rediscovering her faith.

“Leviticus 1926 do not practice divination or seek Omens ... you're doing both divination and seeking omens”

ControversyAndrew Wilson argues women's suffrage destroyed the United States by shifting voting patterns toward security/risk-aversion over freedom. Claims men-only voting would have produced better outcomes.

“women's suffrage absolutely destroyed the United States of America”

OtherBrian mentions at end of show that a girl walked off during the stream; plans to post behind-the-scenes footage in Discord. Walkoff not captured clearly in main transcript — referenced only in closing segment.

“BTS maybe we'll post the BTS of that girl who walked off”

OtherBrian announces fundraiser for Mason, a former guest in a severe motorcycle accident with 10% survival odds. $3,400 raised via GiveSendGo; Brian personally donated $1,500.

“he was in a severe motorcycle accident ... 10% chance of survival ... we were able to raise $3,400”

Topics Discussed

Guest introductions and relationship status round

Guests introduce themselves: Arina (20, CSUF), Rachel (39, Vancouver server), Bianca (22, care provider), Elby (22, UCI pre-optometry), Emma (22, communications), Morgan (18, SBCC soccer), Ana (19, UCSB). Andrew Wilson introduced as co-host. Each guest shares relationship history.

Loyalty testing / Arina's boyfriend loyalty test story

Arina describes loyalty-testing a new boyfriend by DMing 20 women from his following list after one date. He failed by agreeing to fly girls out. Panel debates whether loyalty testing is justified. Andrew Wilson frames it as a crystal-ball thought experiment about foreknowledge.

Paternity tests and trust in relationships

Brian asks whether panelists would agree to a paternity test if requested by a husband. Majority say they would but would be hurt by the lack of trust.

Female submission and masculinity in relationships

Andrew Wilson argues optimal relationships have women deferring to men. Discussion of empathy, narcissism, masculinity. Andrew argues men are biologically designed for low empathy. Irene defends balance and Christian ethics of submission.

Self-ratings round (looks 1-10)

Guests rate their own looks 1-10 (no 7). Ratings extracted: Arina=8, Rachel/Bianca unclear, Elby ~6.5, Emma ~6.5, Morgan unknown. Brian passes. Andrew jokes he is a 10. Discussion follows about whether women get better-looking with age.

Aging / do women peak discussion

Brian asks if guests will be more attractive in 10/20/30/40 years. Arina claims she will keep improving until death. Andrew and Brian rebut with the concept of aging market value. Discord members use an aging AI filter on two of the guests.

Romance declining / chivalry

Panel discusses whether romance and chivalry are declining. Consensus is yes; causes attributed to hookup culture, social media, feminism, and Trudeau (Rachel).

BOW Video 2.0 — would women bow for their man

Brian shows a viral 'BOW video' of a woman bowing when her boyfriend arrives. Panelists asked if they would bow. Most refuse. Irene (SPEAKER_14) refuses citing it is not her culture (uses bow for elders). Brian and Andrew point out the contradiction: women will perform sexual acts for near-strangers but refuse a bow for a committed partner.

Christian faith and tarot cards — Irene debate with Andrew

Andrew challenges Irene's claim of being Christian while practicing tarot cards, citing Leviticus 19:26 and 20:27 (divination/necromancy). Irene argues she is still rediscovering her faith and believes she has a gift from God. Andrew argues she suffers from confirmation bias.

Women working vs. staying home / gender roles

Andrew argues most women would choose not to work given the option, and smart women should raise children rather than waste intelligence in corporate jobs. SPEAKER_13 (career-focused guest) pushes back, saying she wants to be a lawyer and always work.

Andrew Wilson debate: women's suffrage and voting patterns

Andrew argues women's suffrage destroyed the US by causing risk-averse voting patterns that impede freedoms. Claims men voting alone would have resulted in better outcomes.

Dating market hypergamy and internet's effect on dating

Andrew walks through hypergamy argument: internet opened global dating pool, women now compete for top 5-10% of men, men receive few DMs while women receive thousands. Both agree internet destroyed localized dating. DM count comparison around panel.

Body count discussion

Brian asks if men are insecure for caring about body count. Rachel says yes; others say no. Brief panel discussion on whether body count matters in relationships.

Closing segment: pickup lines, Discord aging photos reveal, final bow

Panel shares best pickup lines. Discord reveals AI-aged photos of two guests. Brian asks for final bow volunteers; one guest agrees. Brian mentions a fundraiser for 'Mason' (previous guest in a severe motorcycle accident, 10% survival chance, currently in hospital, $3,400 raised).

Transcript

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Irenethoughts I would do it but I do feel if there is no reason to not be trusted I guess if I gave him a reason for him not to trust

Ireneme then I do feel that's valid but even asking for it I do feel it's going to ruin a lot for a relationship would it end the relationship if you asked for one um

Ireneemotionally not sure about you got you got to speak into the microphone I'm not sure about like physically and the relationship but definitely emotionally for me wait it would emotionally end the like the connection between us wa it wouldn't physically end the relation so

Ireneyou guys would still but you wouldn't be in love is that what you're saying I mean if we were having a child together I wouldn't necessarily I would try to find an alternative before I

Ireneguess getting a divorce but in terms of the emotional connection with my husband it would break that trust agreement between us what about you um I would

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)take it I don't think I would be that offended to be honest I mean I do think like a lot of other people mentioned that it would be kind of a problem that we need to talk about and I would definitely want to know where is this coming from you know because I don't

Emmathink those things ever come from nothing but I would take it I take it I think it's way bigger than just a relationship

Emmayou wouldn't be upset or maybe a little bit but I don't think I'd be upset after like a while Ana I would take it but it would definitely be like hurtful and it

Arina/Bianca (mixed)would also like indicate like you said like a deeper issue yeah uh Andrew any thoughts on the yeah I'd like to ask a slightly different question what if he went ahead and took a paternity test

Andrew Wilsonwithout your knowledge and then you found out about it would that upset you yes it's the same I mean it's worse even yeah but if you knew

Andrew Wilsonthat you may perhaps you'd had discussions about this or something like this MH if you knew that you were against this or you thought that somehow this was him bringing your integrity

Andrew Wilsoninto question and so in order to spare that right this is um perhaps he's anxious on his own part or whatever for whatever reason uh he decided that he would just go ahead and do this on his

Andrew Wilsonown to establish paternity uh in order to not upset you isn't he kind of in a catch 22 there right isn't he in a catch 22 either he tells you about it you get super upset so he has to do that yeah

Rachelright I mean what's what like what are what are his options at that point yeah I mean if he doesn't tell you I mean what doesn't what you don't

Racheldoesn't hurt you but right like doing anything behind your you know communication and trust is is that cuz even you said like it's bigger than the relationship I mean trust is a

Andrew Wilsonrelationship in my opinion if I don't trust someone or my friends what am I why would I be in the relationship with them so yeah I understand that but I'm just I'm not looking at this from your perspective I'm trying to look at

Andrew Wilsonit from the other from the other person's perspective so women are always assured of paternity that's not a thing that they ever have to worry about right they know it's their baby because it's coming out of them right men are the

Andrew Wilsononly ones who are ever going to have doubts about paternity they're the only ones since that is the case if they wanted the Peace of Mind of a paternity test which since almost all forms of

Andrew Wilsonfamily Co from father to son including the last name living on I understand why men want a paternity established especially now that we can do it and for most of human history we couldn't uh I'm

Andrew Wilsonnot even sure that well it's not even I'm not even sure I don't think that it even has anything to do with whether or not they trust their partner uh but rather it's just peace of mind so if you set up the option of if you asked me for

Andrew Wilsona paternity test I would get super offended and I would be upset about it what choice are you giving them except to go ahead and go behind your

Andrew Wilsonback well the thing the thing is like I just my expectation is that he trusts me yeah but I I don't I'm not sure that it's an indicator he

Racheldoesn't well you think I I you think he would just somebody would just get a paternity test even if he truly trusted you he feel like fully trusts you like there that wouldn't make so haven't you

Andrew Wilsonever had intuitive doubts about things which were absurd or didn't make any sense or were kind of silly like for instance maybe you had a dream that your spouse had cheated on you so you wake up

Andrew Wilsonand you start smacking them right and you call them names and you're like how and he didn't even do anything right it was just like some stupid intuition that you had and then you're like okay now hug me and tell me everything's okay and

Andrew Wilsonhe's like I didn't even do anything I was just sleeping right uh so it's it's you can have I I just find it kind of ironic that you can kind of have these silly intuitions and you want those fears to Swang but when somebody else

Andrew Wilsonmight have what you consider to be silly intuitions and you can just put their mind at ease somehow they're the bad guy that's a trust issue why shouldn't the guy look at you if you wake them up for instance uh and say oh I had a dream that you were cheating now make me feel

Andrew Wilsonbetter why shouldn't he say how could you not trust me oh that's awful you don't trust me now we have a big issue why are you having dreams like that wouldn't that be horrible to

Irenesay in my opinion I feel that intuition is very different from intrusive thoughts so if there's no I guess inner knowing or maybe even a sense of

Irenerationality when it comes to trusting your partner then you are just kind of feeding into your own ego or those intrusive thoughts that they're cheating on you but they have

Andrew Wilsongiven no reason for you to believe that yeah but an intrusive thought is irrational right it's it's an irrational fear there's people who have irrational fears of spiders they have a rational fear of all sorts of different things

Andrew Wilsonand they're generally not shamed for it right so let me give you a a couple of examples an irrational fear of heights very common an irrational fear like raise your hand right now if you're claustrophobic I'm sure at least one of

Andrew Wilsonyou at the table is yep every single time at least at least one person will be what about fear of heights raise your hand if you have that yep okay so we already have established

Andrew Wilsonjust right here at the table there's two people who have irrational fears right but the thing is is what wait tell Andrew I don't think fear of heights is

Andrew Wilsonirrational that is rational say that Brian said that fear of heights is not an irrational fear yeah what if you're three off the ground dude what if you're three feet off the ground then is it irrational what about two

Andrew Wilsonfeet still capacity for what if you're enclosed what if you're enclosed in a room and you just have a window and you look over and it's 50 ft down and you you know you start getting queasy these

Andrew Wilsonare rational fears and so the thing is is like um if that's the case if you have an irrational fear that a partner could easily take care of for you like for

Andrew Wilsoninstance you have a bad dream a woman has a bad dream that the guy cheated this is so common in fact there's entire studies on this phenomenon entire studies on women having bad dreams and

Andrew Wilsonthat they don't mean anything and that it's just a silly intuition but the number one thing that they ask their partner to do when they have that bad dream is to comfort them that's the number one thing they ask is listen I

Andrew Wilsonknow that this isn't rational but I'd like you to comfort me anyway yeah and so now now can you imagine if he could if you could say okay if we can swab your cheek right now right these dreams

Andrew Wilsonwill go away for me forever wouldn't wouldn't you want him to do that

Andrew WilsonI yeah I guess I don't know yeah right I mean wouldn't you want him to like if you had dreams recurring dreams which you thought he was cheating there was no evidence of cheating right it's it's all just inside your head it's all just

Rachelintuition and all he had to do was swab his cheek and he'd never have that dream again wouldn't you want him to I mean I would I would self-regulate you know that's I feel like that's something I I would deal with

Rachelmyself if you know if there are no sign that's really just like random and you know and I'm just like oh like and I don't see how that would come up if you don't see

Andrew Wilsonsigns if again I think it would come from you yeah but you can misinterpret all of the signs and that could lead to the dream right so you could misinterpret everything and have no evidence be totally wrong this happens

Andrew Wilsonall the time why is it okay for you to do that just not men I didn't say that well that's what I mean though is like men could easily misinterpret all sorts of things or have all sorts of

Andrew Wilsonirrational fears yeah and if you can just kind of oh I can just swab my and put all those fears to bed it seems silly to me that when the shoe's on one foot oh this irrational fear is kind of

Andrew Wilsonfine but when it's on the other foot it's not even though women don't ever have to worry about that fear because they're the birthers of the children they always have paternity established it's not

Andrew Wilsonmen well I mean M maternity for them and then paternity for men right well some some women sometimes don't know either well they may not know who the father is but they're going to always

Andrew Wilsonknow who the mother is oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah fathers fathers though they're not they're not they don't have that guarantee women always have the guarantee that this is my child so you

Andrew Wilsonknow if if you can have those irrational fears and ask that those things be like comforted away because it makes you feel better I don't understand how that's not

Racheljust the same thing in Reverse well I mean it is the same thing but that's in what I said is goes for in Reverse as well if a woman has an irrational fear or something I think she

Andrew Wilsonhas I deal with my when I know it's kind of irrational you know I don't need somebody else oh come on oh come on so you've never ever ever in your life had

Andrew Wilsonan irrational fear like that and ask somebody to comfort that fear away like you've never had that dream and you never been like okay I had this dream and I'd like to talk to you about it

Andrew Wilsonjust cuz it'll make me feel better right never no not really no no okay well how many women but I mean yeah I guess it's something but no I've never how many women here have had dreams that their

Andrew Wilsonsignificant other might be cheating yeah or maybe seeing other people how many times have you thought perhaps they were even though they weren't right you misread the signs can

Andrew Wilsonwe get a show of hands on that yeah I mean it happens right and so the thing is is I think that if you were talking to your girlfriends the next day you said listen I had a bad dream that

Andrew Wilsonmy significant other was cheating on me and when I woke up he said to me you know what I can't believe you don't trust me you're a rotten you're a rotten person I can't believe it that's awful and uh and then went and slept in

Andrew Wilsonanother room I think that they would all be like what a jerk they'd all be like what a jerk that he did that to you what what an ABS all he had to do was give you a hug all he had to do was tell you it would be okay but then somehow though

Andrew Wilsonif they asked for like the most important thing on planet Earth which is just establishing the paternity of their child that's some kind of big ask and that to me is just absurd well I mean

Andrew Wilsonasking for support it's not like asking for proof it's different yeah it is it is asking for proof you're asking them for the same thing you're asking them to

Andrew Wilsonmake you feel better about an irrational fear about something which you know they know it's not true right so your partner your husband your boyfriend whatever they know they're not cheating on you

Andrew Wilsonyeah so it's accusatory it's accusatory to be like even I even to tell him oh I had a bad dream comfort me that in its own way is accusatory and it's like so but but the expectation is like well

Andrew Wilsonthey're men you know they they should hug us and make us feel better about this stuff but it's like when it's on the shoes on the other foot it suddenly it's offensive and how dare they and I I just don't understand it's offensive in

Rachelboth ways but equivalent would be the guy not asking for a test but asking for Comfort that's the equivalent of the situation be like hey are you is this me me confering and saying like yes he's

Andrew Wilsonyours it's the same thing as like let's say you said like the dream thing you said oh yeah sure sure but let's say you could give if the guy if the girl was having recurring dreams you said you you would expect them to swab their cheek

Andrew Wilsonright they get rid of the the dreams forever you know hey will you just swab the cheek and then my dreams go away forever all these bad dreams that I have about this IR rational fear go away and you're like no that's not appropriate that's just silly to me of course every

Andrew Wilsonman I could imagine would be like like yeah sure I don't care every I doubt it I don't think they would care I don't think they would care I think that you know every man I've ever talked to has woken up with a woman

Andrew Wilsonnext to him who has said this to him who has said I think you're cheating blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and I know it's not rational it's a bad dream that I had it's not even true but I had the bad dream make me feel better that's

Andrew Wilsonfind annoying uhhuh you don't think they find that annoying you don't think they feel I think they find it an but I think that because uh they you know kind of adore

Andrew Wilsonthe other person that if she was like oh if you just swab your cheek with this Q-tip for 30 seconds I'll never wake you up with this again I think they would do it and they I don't even think they

Andrew Wilsonwould complain I literally don't even think they would complain I think they'd be like yeah whatever I don't care I think they do it while they're brushing their teeth I don't think they'd care right can I

Elbyinterject um honestly I see your point Point um I feel like doesn't matter if you're a man or woman um everyone needs reassurance at least if everyone has some sort of like fears or worries or

Elbyanxieties which is completely fine that's why when um like if the guy needs a swab then to like to ease his mind

Elbythen I'm like okay sure and but it does really again serves like a u means to just talk about like what's really going on cuz here the thing too like I am I'm

Elbysomeone that's like oh like are you like do you love me you know I sometimes I ask like do you still love me like of course like why you keep asking um it's just a matter of reassurance but there

Elbyis a threshold I feel like where um the more you are showing that anxiety the more it indicates to your partner that you don't have enough confidence in the relationship and I feel like having

Andrew Wilsonconfidence having trust again is something that is yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure that I buy any of that that's like a bizarre psychoanalysis so here's the thing people are vastly complex

Andrew Wilsonthey're individuals especially are vastly complex and their experiences are so different from one another that it's essentially impossible to even determine um you know even the basic

Andrew Wilsonthings of like what would make one guy a jerk might make another guy endearing what makes one woman you know a brat might make another woman you know cute to to other people there's a everything

Andrew Wilsonfrom presentation to voice structure to every people are just overwhelmingly complex and so a person can be an extraordinarily nice person they could

Andrew Wilsonbe a great person trust you 100% And still have an irrational fear and it's like to to be offended by the fact that you can uh you know take that burden off their mind seems insane because if I

Andrew Wilsongive you tons of examples of it happening the opposite way it's just so common we take it for granted at the same time too I feel like again before you get into a relationship

Elbyyou are your own person everyone has at least some sort of line or boundary that they set of course like once or twice it's okay like um like I'll let aside

Elbybut then again you got to work on it again a relationship is something that is between two people and communicating to work on like obstacles such as like anxiety or going through certain like

Elbyirrational fears um I feel like that's a beautiful thing to to like as a relationship just to work on each other but again if it's not leading to like where it's going to have any positive

Elbyprogress like that's where the relationship I feel goes downhill um I I feel like um again if we're going back to like the paternity testing it's not I

Elbydon't think it's that deep but I there is some like sort of like um bitter feeling but that can could be definitely worked out a lot of things could definitely be worked out if there's communication but I know not a lot of

Elbypeople here or like a lot of people in general um are like perfect secured relationships um some people deal with like anxiety well they could be though

Andrew Wilsonyou could I think you could be in a perfectly secure relationship and one person still has a fear which is just totally irrational for no good reason and if you're with that person for a very long time you know how they are and so that's what I mean is like I don't

Andrew Wilsonthink that I don't think these things are done from a position of I don't trust you right I don't think these things are done from a position of I dislike you or I think that you're a

Andrew Wilsonlady of about town or a harlot of the night I think that they're done because establishing paternity is something that men wish historically they've always I mean King Kings would have given

Andrew Wilsonkingdoms for this technology to be able to establish 100% Who their heirs were going to be they would have given kingdoms for it and and now it's right there at your fingertip for 1999 in a

Andrew WilsonWalmart and it's like give the guy a piece mind you know they do it for you all the time for every little crazy thing that pops into a woman's mind right whatever it may be whatever

Andrew Wilsonrational fear is oh I heard a noise go check it out okay I'll go check it even though he knows there's nothing down there or oh you know the car's making a noise no it's fine honey there's nothing wrong with the car no it's making a

Andrew Wilsonnoise okay it's fine don't worry about it there's so many times where men are kind of um you know operating off of taking care of the

Andrew Wilsonfear and irrational fears of women and yet somehow uh they're supposed to kind of uh women are supposed to get a pass on when it's their turn to kind of operate the same way towards men and I I

Brian Atlasjust I've always thought that that was absurd just you know my take on it all right um we have two new guests who arrived

Brian Atlaswe'll have them introduce themselves please tell us your name age occupation and location starting with you go ahead hi I'm Irene I'm 22 years

Ireneold um I am currently working as a Tarot reader I graduated with a Psychology

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)major recently um and I'm from Dallas Texas a Tarot reader okay all right what about you hello my name is karinaa I I

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)am 22 years old as well was just my birthday this week and then I work at Student Financial Center at San Diego State University I also studying there majoring in marketing and sales and

Brian Atlasminoring in social psychology and I'm originally from Europe I moved to California about 3 years ago all right and uh so current relationship status longest relationship

Ireneum single and longest relationship a year and a half how long have you been single

Brian Atlaslike around 7 months is that the one the 1.5 year relationship uh who broke up with you in your most recent

Brian Atlasrelationship my partner broke up with me and then 1.5 year relationship who who broke up with who my partner okay and then for you uh relationship status I'm

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)single as well um my longest relationship is also a year and a half I actually broke up a couple of weeks ago really recent 3

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)weeks um like two weeks ago okay mhm uh who broke up with who I broke up with him longest relationship who broke up with who that is the longest one that was the longest one oh that was the most

Brian Atlasrecent one I see okay MH all right um and I have some other question here so you guys were a little bit late here

Brian AtlasNow That's What I Call okay that's what I call a test you see the omission of even a token apology

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)um so why were you guys late we had a situation with a car so we rented the car because she came to visit me from Dallas and we rented it I believe from

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)Tuesday and I live in downtown San Diego and I don't usually have a car and the parking is an issue for anyone who ever been to downtown San Diego they know that and yeah there was a problem with

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)that and got a take it yeah we got to take it and we had to pick it up MH so there was this whole issue happening

Brian Atlasum the car was rented on Tuesday yes yes Tuesday night but today you rented the car in advance yeah

Irenewell so we wanted to kind of hang out before the podcast and she was going to show me around because she doesn't own a car and so we did rent it for a few days

Brian Atlasin advance okay um I suppose that makes it a little more plausible it's just typically

Brian Atlaswhen I'll just take your word for it on that front the car was towed mhm so we wanted to

Brian Atlasoh but so you hold on you rented the car on Tuesday like 5 days ago yeah did you park the car last night in the same spot

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)you've been parking it in since Tuesday no it's sitting it's it's street parking so it changes every time we drive it it's streight parking in Downtown San Diego so we have to find a different

Ireneparking spot every time and the car was towed for so we got to take it because I guess you can't have a car are parked for more than 72 hours and which is

Ireneincorrect by the way we which yes um we'll talk about that later but um so we for the past couple of days we weren't using our car at all because we were

Irenegoing out and we got several tickets as well as the car towed yeah because of that 72-hour

Irenelimit but why rent the car if you let it sit there for we weren't planning on not using the car it just happen to be that

Brian Atlasway okay do you have proof of the the toe we can bring it it's in the car with

Brian Atlasus okay all right um okay um well there you have it folks uh I'll just take your word for it

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)I guess um I got my driver's license pretty recently cuz when I moved from Europe I didn't get it cuz they don't really drive around there until they're 18 mhm

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)so that might have been our bat a little bit not the best Parker but that's kind of the reason for that as well yeah um okay I'm going to go back to the pre-show notes so uh you said don't

Andrew Wilsonworry neither are most American women don't feel bad it's like it's not unique to European women okay well I'm getting

Brian Atlasbetter all right so uh you said your friends and and I have crazy stories was there another crazy story you wish to

Elbyshare do you have one mhm a crazy story mhm not really I think I feel like my experiences in dating are kind of I

Elbyguess common so it it's not it's not dude it's not crazy as yours that's all I want to say it's not that crazy

Elbyum but I did uh had a talking stage for like 7 months which is not good and I definitely learned from that

Brian Atlasexperience that was beautiful that was okay all right um I'll get into the other notes then uh so let's

Brian Atlassee uh we got vianca vianca you said the time I was love bombed by a narcissist

Arina/Bianca (mixed)what's the story there oh um yeah so uh I met this guy online right

Arina/Bianca (mixed)and um we uh we uh we met up we had a date

Arina/Bianca (mixed)and whatnot and it went good so um we just every weekend he would come over it was like a 2hour drive so he would come over pick me up and like we

Arina/Bianca (mixed)would uh go on dates I guess like C dates or what whatnot mhm and um yeah um I think I was very delusional

Arina/Bianca (mixed)after the second date and um I started to get like really attached by like what he would say and

Arina/Bianca (mixed)do and so um yeah um just weeks kept passing by two months and

Arina/Bianca (mixed)um I start to notice like little things that he would do but like I like I said I was like just kind of love bomb and

Arina/Bianca (mixed)kind of didn't say anything like little red flags that he would do um and so

Andrew Wilsonum it just didn't end up good oh my God that was the vaguest story ever okay I will what was he um was he a

Andrew Wilsondiagnosed narcissist or did you diagnose him as a narcissist uh I guess I did just because like I don't know he would

Brian Atlaslike he would um Gaslight you no no no it's already difficult enough getting an answer out of her just don't interrupt let her

Arina/Bianca (mixed)answer please go ahead yeah um so he would like do um I'm sorry uh okay

Andrew Wilsonum yeah so we're just looking for what what is the narcissistic type of behavior that you would see that led you to diagnose him as a narcissist like let's say I was going to the gym and like he would like I would

Arina/Bianca (mixed)wear something he'd be like oh like that's you know let's like a crop top like y don't wear that or um like saying like oh post this or else

Arina/Bianca (mixed)like you don't love me you know like type I don't yeah he's he did like I for btim said that like like oh like not love me but like like say like oh like why aren't you like posting this

Brian Atlaslike you know like I took a picture this is I mean I H Andrew I'll let you continue in just a sec here but did everybody at the table and did the chat notice what she just did so you said he

Brian Atlassaid something yes and then when I pressed you you said he actually didn't say that wait he said something completely different wait you're I'm getting confused you said if you don't post this you don't love me like not

Brian Atlaslove me but like like oh like no affection towards me like like you're not showing any affection like you know in that way but there's a big difference between at least I think between a man saying if you don't do this it's proof

Brian Atlasthat you don't love me and a man saying if you don't do this this is perhaps an example of you not caring I think that's a big difference I think we need to be very precise in our language here cuz I don't think it's

Brian Atlasfair to to if you're explaining a situation about about how somebody has allegedly wronged you to lie about what they said but go on

Arina/Bianca (mixed)continue

Arina/Bianca (mixed)um

Brian Atlasyeah okay so Andrew is asking what he did that was narcissistic

Arina/Bianca (mixed)do this any more I'm sorry I I'm pretty bad at

Production crewthis a

Brian Atlaswait was that I think that's just going to be I mean I don't know why I should I think that's a quit that's going to be a quit I mean she went into the bathroom but that's going to be a quit so

Brian Atlasum Andrew I know you have strong opinions on the whole narcissism thing yeah well out you too

Andrew Wilsonhomie it's just been something that I've experienced um quite often that when a woman calls a man a narcissist and I ask if the

Andrew Wilsonman has actually been diagnosed as a narcissist the answer universally is no that they have not which means that

Andrew Wilsonthere's a lot of women who are either dating the uh the the same like 12 guys who are narcissists or whatever or uh

Andrew Wilsonthey really overdiagnose how many men are narcissist um and I'm I'm just I've never been able to quite figure out why is that um that so many women in the

Andrew Wilsonfirst place think that they could make such a diagnosis to begin with so yeah what what's going on what's going

Brian Atlason huh what's going on huh done doneo she's done oh okay she's done all right that's that's

Brian Atlasa okay all right that's fine uh Morgan welcome to the panel uh Andrew sorry sorry for the interruption we were still figuring out I saying um yeah that that a lot of

Andrew Wilsonwomen seem to diagnose minute with narcissism even though they're they have zero credentials to do so they have absolutely no real ability to do so they don't have the required uh training to do so and yet they're very quick to do

Andrew Wilsonthat and it's very damaging to a person's reputation to say that they're narcissistic you're uh you're essentially hitting them with an order which is on par with borderline personality disorder and others like

Andrew Wilsonthis and I just wonder why women think it's um like for instance I guess I should have asked this first but have has anybody at the table ever dated a

Rachelnarcissist yeah now suddenly not right I I think I have I think I have you think you have I think I have yeah but like you said like you can never officially

Racheltell right and I mean I think women do are people do over diagnose but also narcissistic people kind of never get diagnosed because they don't know that they are or don't think that they are

Racheland they would never go to therapy to be diagnosed so I think those are two kind of reasons but I don't yeah you're right I think you can never be sure I mean possibly the the big problem that I have though is that

Andrew Wilsonmany of the traits which are considered narcissistic by women in modernity are often conflated with things which are just confidence assertiveness uh not putting up with things that they don't

Andrew Wilsonlike or having standards that they want adhere to those things uh are also desirable traits and yet uh often times even though those are the traits which attract women to that man in the first

Andrew Wilsonplace later after the relationship has been resolved they say that oh I should have known those were narcissistic traits which is that's that's I guess the bizarre part to me like the guy you

Andrew Wilsonsaid for instance Rachel you said I dated a narcissist when you think about those narcissistic traits that you now look back on and say these were signs of narcissism weren't those similar traits

Rachelto What attracted you to the guy in the first place no cuz he it doesn't show at first it just starts showing up kind of in a sneaky way and then it's like there's more and

Rachelmore gaslighting and there's more and more like criticism and then it just becomes more and more as you go along the relationship and at some point you kind of like you start dotting yourself so much about kind of everything and you

Rachelerase yourself but at the beginning you don't it's it's the it's doesn't show us confidence or anything like that it's well what does it show as at the beginning it it doesn't show at all yeah

Rachelbut what did this what what was this guy's narcissistic trait uh just like constant criticism you feel like you have to walk on exells like everything you're going to do is going to be wrong everything you're going to say is going to be wrong he's going to kind of freak

Rachelout about every little thing that you say um those those don't those could apply to a narcissist but they could also apply controlling like he needs to control the situation needs to be like

Rachelhe wants and like let's say you there's a double standard as well like he makes a joke and if you make that joke then it doesn't you know all of those things which I agree probably aren't desirable

Andrew Wilsoncharacteristics can still be held by people who are not narcissist yeah I agree I agree that's why I said you can you can never really know well I think you can know I think that you know by having a diagnosis by

Andrew Wilsonmedical professionals who work with these people for many years before they make such a diagnosis but but even then I guess maybe an olive branch here maybe you can't ever know because even diagnosis between psychological

Andrew Wilsonprofessionals tend to differ when it comes to individuals because of how complex it is so one psychologist may say yes that's a narcissist and another one says no it's not a narcissist it's a because we're talking about human

Rachelbehavior the scientific method often goes out the window right yeah and narcissism apparently is the hardest thing to diagnose and narcissist people are very very smart and very manipulative so apparently apparently

Andrew Wilsonthat's that's they can up with the actual psychologist or a psych I'm not even sure it exists I'm not convinced that the actual condition of narcissism exists uh any more than psychopathy

Andrew Wilsonexists I mean psychopathy is completely made up it's not in any uh psychological handbooks not in any of the dsms it's just never we made it up right we I mean we made the entire people call each

Andrew Wilsonother Psychopaths all the time it's not even a diagnosable condition it's like we just made it up I gu people like how many of you didn't know that how many of you didn't know that we made up psychopathy we made up psychopath that's

Andrew Wilsontotally madeup diagnosis how many of you knew that I didn't yeah it's to it's to it's completely fabricated I mean it's I

Andrew Wilsonthink it's fun to call people that right I guess oh that guy's a real psycho um but that's not what they call they call it um you know uh uh it's a personality

Andrew Wilsondisorder they they have different names you might refer to that as some form of psychopathy but uh but there's no actual diagnosis for

Andrew Wilsonpsychopathy so yeah it's it's hard for me to believe uh some of these um you know some of these kind of widely used diagnoses like

Brian Atlasnarcissism um I'm not even I'm not even sure if they really exist wait so none of y'all have dated a narcissist really none of you come on I just said I think

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)I did I think my dad is one your dad's one I think so okay nope I don't think so no narcissist mm- yes that has narcissistic Tendencies

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)yes M okay but there's a difference if you have Tendencies or you're like you guys said are actually diagnosed with it yeah yeah I mean and that's the

Irenebothersome thing right it's like narcissistic Tendencies means what so I do feel I mean I did some research on narcissism there's two types of

Andrew Wilsonnarcissism there's covert and overt no covert narcissism and uh there's actually six different kinds okay but covert narcissism is under the umbrella

Andrew Wilsonand it's widely disputed by psychologists if covert narcissism even exists or grandio or grandiose narcissism if that even exists right uh

Andrew Wilsonso that would the these are umbrella terms but again it's very difficult to get specificity when you start to dive into it um you start to find out well it's a lot more vague than you

Irenethink I think it's important to do research on these I guess diagnosis and before you choose to self- diagnose or

Irenediagnose someone else with without a medical professional um but it can help you be aware of what's going on with that person and why they're they have

Irenethese Tendencies like for example like I I feel that narcissists lack empathy so it's the difference between the overt and covert that I was mentioning is

Ireneovert is the grandiose narcissism it's very outward projection whereas covert is it's harder to really spot because

Irenethey're not as they don't really need the praise from society it's more I guess sneaky is just like an easier way to put it uh and I do feel

Irenethat overt narcissism is like the embodying of grandos behaviors and thinking that they are better than others because they have that lack of empathy but they also can be very

Andrew WilsonCharming because they put on some sort of facade yeah let me um let me try to give you like a maybe a different take here

Andrew Wilsonwell I was in a uh shop one time and I was uh I was welding something up and I looked up and a guy had put a Dr Dr bit through his hand and he was screaming

Andrew Wilsonand it was bleeding everywhere and all of us stopped what we were doing and started laughing of course we went over and we were helping him while he was screaming but we were laughing hysterically while while this was

Andrew Wilsonhappening uh does that show a distinct lack of empathy right I think it does but I think that mascul when you're talking about masculinity and you're talking about how men behave we're not

Andrew Wilsonsupposed to be overly empathetic we're not supposed to be that way that's not what we're designed to do we're literally designed to go out and kill large animals right and feel nothing

Andrew Wilsonwe're not supposed to care about fluffy we're not supposed to care how fluffy looks we're supposed to care how fluffy tastes and so what happens I think is it's kind of great conflation where because women are very empathetic to

Andrew Wilsoneach other they think that men in turn are also supposed to be very empathetic men are not empathetic we're not empaths we're not supposed to be empaths that would be very bad if we were empathetic in fact that would be the opposite of

Irenegood we wouldn't have been able to hunt very well for instance right I don't believe that narcissism is directly associated with gender or masculinity or

Irenefemininity um true I don't think that laughing at the matter at hand is it's like the direct example of a lack of empathy as

Irenewhat I was relating to with narcissism it's almost it's it feels very fake when they do the display of empathy because they have that lack of depth when it does come to their empathy and they will

Andrew Wilsonmake obvious but many men have trouble conveying for instance um and women too right so this argument would be used right back against you many people just have trouble conveying empathy it doesn't even mean that they're not

Andrew Wilsonempathetic they just have trouble with it or they or they're not particularly wired to be empathetic men especially are not wired to be empathetic we're not supposed to be empathetic we're supposed

Andrew Wilsonto have barriers and guards from empathy for a reason men who were designed from the biological perspective to protect the tribe they're going to have to kill

Andrew Wilsonother men right that's what they're wired to kill other men if they're wired to do that how much empathy should they be bogged down with probably not much

Ireneright probably not much there's a difference between outwardly showing that you lack empathy and kind of embracing that

Irenequality about yourself for is lacking that empathy and making it as if that you have this empathy and that's why I said that narcissists tend to be more Charming people because they fake that

Andrew Wilsonkind of empathy yeah but think about what you're saying imagine that you're in school you're a young man right and schools are mostly overwhelmingly run by women and most of policies are

Andrew Wilsonimplemented by women and that's T you tend to see young women do really well in school and young men not do well in school men are penalized for things things which uh which we consider to be

Andrew Wilsonjust fine for instance if a man gets up in the middle of class and drags another guy outside and beats them up uh we don't really care about that we don't consider that to be a big deal um and we

Andrew Wilsonnever did even in the United States the idea of like you punched somebody in school and you went to jail or you got suspended or expelled that that's a new thing right that's a new thing so when you're talking about like rough and

Andrew Wilsontumble play things like this imagine being in an environment where you're told that you need to be empathetic all the time you're following a different set of rules which are designed not for your sex or how you're designed uh it

Andrew Wilsonwould be very easy for you to fall into the pattern of Faking things like empathy uh in order to keep the people around you happy even though there's absolutely nothing wrong with you having

Andrew Wilsonfar less of it or not expressing it does that make sense yeah like when you were in school when you're you you guys aren't that removed from high school who who was

Andrew Wilsonmore likely to get into fist fights the boys or the girls boys boys the boys right and how often were they able to become friends hey we got it after they

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)after they got in the fist fight how often were they able to become friends afterwards guys do make out make out like easier make up easier that is true usually when girls are offended by each

Andrew Wilsonother there's usually like a lot of toxic emotional Behavior thereafter so I do agree with that yeah so what happens is is that men kick the out of each other all the time and we just don't see a big deal with it and we're not very

Andrew Wilsonempathetic about it and we usually laugh hysterically at the guy who's on the ground and then pick his ass up and brush him off like that's how we do things women they don't do things that way they're looking for empathy things

Andrew Wilsonlike this but I don't I don't really see why men need to necessarily live in a woman's world where we have to kind of pretend that empathy is this kind of primary edict because for us it's just really not

Brian Atlaswait Andrews originally do you think that women are more empathetic than men uh well I think that they display empathy much more than men I think that

Andrew Wilsonthe way that this is expressed is far different right I think that men can suppress their emotions far better than women can and uh and they're very good at doing it and they have the chemicals

Andrew Wilsonin their body that make them good at doing it and um and women oftentimes even if their chemical makeup is perfect for controlling emotions one time a month even the chemical differential

Andrew Wilsonwill kind of kick in and you can see all sorts of hysterical Behavior this type of thing just based on that alone so yeah I I do think that men are empathetic but I think that they display

Brian Atlasit far differently and what what I would consider empathy and what a woman would consider empathy are two very different things well excluding the outward displays of empathy assuming there is no

Brian Atlasthere is no display of empathy either from a man or woman uh do you think women have a greater capacity to think that it's just not countered it's not

Andrew Wilsoncountered so I would say that the the the amount of empathy from any normal man or normal woman would be the same but I would say that the counter that men have when they're applying things to

Andrew Wilsonit different chemicals in their body to it and then and uh stoicism and perhaps reason things like this which they're rewarded for in society and always have been uh they apply those traits to

Andrew Wilsonempathy and I don't think that those types of barriers exist that way for women and instead different types of barriers for different emotions exist for them so I don't I'm not saying that

Andrew Wilsonmen and women aren't just as empathetic I'm saying that uh you're going to think of it like a barrier that you have to walk through one barrier then the next barrier then the next barrier if all a

Andrew Wilsonperson was ever was empathetic that would be terrible right uh and so these kind of displays are are differentiated by what it is that men value versus women and I think that we value reason

Andrew Wilsonand we we are rewarded for reason and we're rewarded for keeping emotions you know under control and women not so much they don't really see rewards that same way and so I think that there's kind of

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)counters in how um empathy is displayed but don't you think there should be a healthy balance between logic and empathy and emotional reasoning and logical reasoning what if it's logical for me not to be empathetic which one

Andrew Wilsonshould win I mean as someone I am I am not yeah yeah but hang on let me ask you the question again what if it the most logical thing I can do in a situation is not be empathetic then but if I were but

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)if I were empathetic it would make the person feel better which thing should I do I think from my personal perspective logical think is always better but I know that some people value emotions more but yeah I know but what you just

Andrew Wilsondid was you just gave me a value judgment and your value judgment is we should value logic over empathy so if that is the case if a man does exactly that I don't see why he'd be punished

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)for it or how that would be a bad balance because we're valuing that now higher than empathy right yes but I feel like the men that you're mention mentioning a lot of the times are the

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)men who doesn't have any empathy or lack complete like any emotional capacity to understand man people lack completely

Andrew Wilsonlack those traits are extraordinarily rare I mean extraordinarily rare yes I'm sure that we've all encountered them I think most of us who have encountered them um probably didn't even know that

Andrew Wilsonwe encountered them but they're very rare and I think that the reason so many people misdiagnose this who aren't even in the field of psychology is because they see things as being a lack of

Andrew Wilsonempathy or see things as being a lack of emotion because they would behave differently or they're used to beave people behaving differently uh but that doesn't mean that the person actually

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)lacks empathy right no of course not I just think that um both genders or people because it doesn't always apply to gender I'm more of a logical person whereas my friend sometimes is more

Andrew Wilsonempathetic I think we both I need to work on each other and learn from each other how to improve both sides that's all I'm say yeah but I I'm going to kind of reject the balance thing right I don't think that you need to be B I

Andrew Wilsonthink that there's kind of a hierarchical order of how things should be done and do I think that you should defer to kind of Reason in logic before emotion I do and I don't think that that

Andrew Wilsonneeds to be balanced why does that need to be balanced exactly that's that that to me seems foolish that doesn't mean like it has to be 50 50% Balan that just

Andrew Wilsonmeans try to understand the other person too if you know yeah but that's logical right you're you're literally you're asking for logic here if you say would you try to understand the other person's perspective um I mean that's that's

Andrew Wilsonexactly what we're doing the second we're arguing or the second we're crafting arguments or the second we're doing any of that we're literally trying to understand the other person's perspective the entire course of dispor is to do this

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)right something happened oh sorry yeah I mean I do see what you mean um and like I said I'm someone who values logic more however if

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)you're trying to be logical about a situation sometimes you're becoming too robotic and I think it's healthy to include emotions in whatever decision well who gets to determine these standards like who gets to just

Andrew Wilsondetermine the standard of what's too robotic and what's empathetic enough other than how I feel so I mean again you just it's always just a deference to but I feel this way and it's like well

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)if the other person doesn't feel that way they're not doing anything wrong exactly and then we're just really kind of putting it down to preferences right correct yeah it varies from a person to person but I I do think that there's

Andrew Wilsonsome people from both sides who are too close-minded to see the other way that's all I'm saying yeah but I think close-mindedness is good too like for instance I would be very close-minded to

Andrew Wilsonan open relationship right I would be very close-minded to I mean just any number of different things I would be extremely close minded to and I don't really see a problem with that either I

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)I mean I don't see why that's problematic I mean there are specific things that we're all close-minded about but yeah sure but what I mean being being open-minded about that okay this person functions differently this person

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)thinks with their emotions first and then thinks through the actions whereas like me for example I think yeah sure but but here's the difference right here's the difference you and I value that differently and and that's where

Andrew Wilsonthis kind of empathy thing comes up right is because I don't value everybody else's decisions equally I think a lot of people make stupid decis decisions that I don't value I think that they have Lifestyles that I don't

Andrew Wilsonvalue and so I just say okay this is valueless to me I don't care about I don't even want to understand it right it's completely valueless and I don't see a problem with that you see what I'm saying yeah no 100% I mean that's why

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)you wouldn't work with every single person whether that would be in as a friend or a relationship it all varies from a person to person and definitely I mean I'm sure we all have opinions about oh yeah this person is doing something

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)weird and I don't want to interact with that but I'm saying if you're already if we're talking about relationships and you're already pursuing this person and if you guys are already close you should make uh you should make like amends to try to work on each other together and

Andrew Wilsonunderstand each other better because I think the healthy relationship is always should be a balance of emotions and logic yeah I mean maybe but then the thing is is I think that all relationships are going to have

Andrew Wilsondominance involved one person's always going to be dominant over the other person no matter what type of relationship you ever engaging I think any two consciousnesses which come together one is going to dominate the

Andrew Wilsonother one no matter what right and so the thing is is like when you say to find this balance right I say that you should find the difference who's going to be deferred to and who's not going to be deferred to when it comes to the

Irenelarger decisions and that's where the Christian ethic comes in of submission from my world you so I if there's dominance in a connection there must be the opposing quality or energy which is

Irenegiving that balance and this kind of why must there sorry why must there in order for someone to be more dominant in a connection there must be someone more submissive must

Andrew Wilsonthere what must there yeah I don't well I don't understand the the the premise here so in order for someone to be more dominant one person has to be more submissive is that what you're saying

Ireneyes okay gotcha all right go ahead so this kind of reminds me of the golden mean this is a philos philosopical I can't never pronounce that maybe by

IreneAristotle but it's all about there can never be too much excess or deficiency so I do believe everything must be balanced in order to work and in this case if we're talking about emotion and

Irenelogic in order to be an impartial person you do have to understand all sides and not just through logic but with your emotions as well in order to get to a Sound

Andrew WilsonDecision um well yeah it maybe but I still don't really understand what where you're going with it like even if I were to assume that you needed to have emotions and logic I think I would agree with that but I'm not I'm not really

Andrew Wilsonsure what the uh what the point here is when we're talking about uh two consciousnesses which would always one would always need to defer to the other like it's that's always going to be the case right

Unknown guest (lawyer aspirant)it's just I I think that

Andrew Wilsonwhat well I'm just I'm just trying to figure out the position that's all I'm not beating you up I just want to figure out the position like what what is it you're actually trying to say here well just because you did mention

Irenethat you don't find it important to have balance I was just providing an example of why I do believe balance is important in all areas of your life well balance

Andrew Wilsonto me would assume like if I was trying to balance this pin that it was equal on all sides or otherwise it would fall over but as was just demonstrated by the gal next to you and I'm sorry I didn't

Andrew Wilsoncatch your name because you came in a little late um but she said well when we're talking about balance what if you had the pin still balanced but it was like this right what if it was over on its side like this it's still balanced

Andrew Wilsonright it's just all moving One Direction so when you say balance I'm not sure that I'm looking for equality or equality between logic and emotion I we just want balance here

Andrew Wilsonright that's what you're saying yes yes MH okay yeah so I mean if that's the case then I wouldn't disagree with that I'm just saying that I think that the deference to logic is and

Andrew Wilsonreason is usually going to be superior than the deference to

Andrew Wilsonemotion and that men are generally speaking more reasonable and more logical and so generally speaking I think that women should probably defer to men that's that's Bas my basic

Elbysyllogism I'd say to each their own on that stance um yeah that's all I'm going to say wait what does that mean though to each their own to each their own if

Elbyyou do feel that way then in your own stance and in your own way of logically thinking then so be it if you're going to if we're going to talk about this in the sense of like relationship sh and

Elbystuff like that um someone who probably feels the same way as you is going to compliment to you compliment that and that way will create that ultimate

Brian Atlasbalance in in your way right well I mean there are people that want to be Furies and they will find someone who wants to do that with them but do you

Brian Atlasobject to his I think Andrew's getting to kind of at least to some degree this concept of women being submissive to men

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