Warren Smith (SNAKE)! Is Chivalry DEAD?! Age Gap HYPOCRISY? She Is 32, BF Is 24?! | Dating Talk #246

Date: 2025-06-09

Duration: 7h 27m

Guests

Brian Atlas

CCrystal (Netherlands)>

CCasey Rivera >

AAlina (Russia)>

KKatrina (Greek)>

WWarren Smith >

Identified Speakers

SPEAKER_01Alina (Russia)(guest)

SPEAKER_02Casey Rivera(guest)

SPEAKER_03Lyanna(guest)

SPEAKER_06Warren Smith(guest)

SPEAKER_07Brian Atlas(host)

SPEAKER_08Katrina (Greek)(guest)

SPEAKER_09Chelsea(guest)

SPEAKER_10Felicity(guest)

SPEAKER_11Crystal (Netherlands)(guest)

Key Moments

IntroAll guests + Warren Smith introduce themselves

Key MomentWarren: fired from teaching after Elon Musk tweeted his classroom video

ControversyBrian: would take lifeboat over wife/girlfriend. Panel erupts.

Key MomentCrystal (32) is dating a 24yo — Brian calls her 'predator' ironically after her age gap critique

Key MomentFelicity's arrest: 115mph chase, hit patrol car, jailed 3 days, charges dropped

Topics Discussed

Guest Introductions

Including Warren Smith (YouTuber, fired after Elon Musk tweet) and Crystal (Netherlands, first US visit).

Warren Fired After Elon Musk Tweet

Viral JK Rowling classroom Socratic discussion. Met Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan.

Titanic/Male Disposability Debate

Brian: would take the lifeboat. Warren: would stay. Extended philosophical debate.

Age Gap Relationships

Crystal (32) dating 24yo but critiques older men dating younger women. Brian points out hypocrisy.

Oral Sex Debate

Brian's refusal. Throat cancer risk. Dealbreaker discussion.

Felicity Arrest Story

115mph police chase, hit patrol car, jailed 3 days, charges dropped.

Transcript

Page 3 of 8

Brian Atlaswhatnot or or drafted. Is that Well, this is where I challenge diverge a bit from you. Uh, Warren, I mean, uh, so my own personal decision if I was on the

Brian AtlasTitanic, and this is of course assuming like I I have an option to choose to go on it, like Mhm. there's not like other men who are basically like, nope, stay

Chelseaback. Uh, even then, I'm like, I'm [ __ ] fighting to get on that [ __ ] I don't care. So, the guy in the movie, you would do that. Was there uh It's been a minute since I've seen seen Titanic. He grabs the kid so he can get

Brian Atlason the lifeboat and save himself. If there's no repercussions, yeah, I will if there's a the most innocent baby, I'm going to punch the baby and take the seat. No, I mean, I'm I'm about

Brian Atlasself-preservation. Obviously, there's limits like there's certain things I I suppose I wouldn't do to if it comes at like eh Well, it's kind of like that

Brian Atlasquestion. Uh, would you annihilate everybody else to save your family, your wife, and your children? That's a difficult I probably would, actually. Wait, hold on. Let me think about that. That might sound really bad. I'm just

Brian Atlasgoing to say, so you would kill the entire human race. Yeah, it's Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. The question is, would I get on the life preserver on the Titanic? Yeah. Yeah, sure. But it's like an honorability thing. Like, would you

Alina (Russia)want to would you want to be the guy who jumped on the lifeboat while someone else died? like you would have to be that for the rest of your life. The guys in the Titanic movie, like the deal with guilt, the one the I can deal you know

Alina (Russia)what's better than guilt still being alive. The guys that are depicted in the movie on the Titanic that are jumping on the lifeboat now over 100 years later, there's dudes clowning them to this day

Alina (Russia)because they're the guy that jumped on the lifeboat. [ __ ] let that If you don't mind that, that's up to you. If if you don't mind living with that, if you don't mind that being your legacy, then

Brian Atlasthat's cool. point of being alive. Legacy. Legacy. Well, I look I I suppose um Oh, I'm in [ __ ] I'm in a movie with Leonard DiCaprio. [ __ ] yeah. I

Warren Smithdon't know. I mean, you're going to go back and rewatch the movie and be like, "Oh, shit." I don't know. I don't know. Did they look bad? Did they look really bad? Really? They look really say a word to him. No, I would [ __ ] sit there

Brian Atlaslike he just sits there like, "Fuck you." I would be double finger like oh but to be fair this is like a totally different like social order back then where there were more traditional

Brian Atlasexpectations like now if it's there's [ __ ] I'm sitting ac like but the but the girl sitting across from me on the lifeboat judging me she's like she's a porn actress and she's like you're not upholding your traditional male

Alina (Russia)standards. I'm like well neither. I don't you're you're literally a prostitute. I don't care. Okay. But you should shouldn't you be the change that you want to see in the world? What's the change that I want to see in the world?

Alina (Russia)What is it? You tell me. Do you want to the world to be back? Like more Sorry. Go ahead. Finish. More like it was during the Titanic times when um the

Alina (Russia)women on the boat were like uh chased uh you know, modest women and the man is like super masculine like yes, I'm going to save this woman and not jump on. Yeah. Are women uh holding up their end

Brian Atlasof the bargain on that? But I I'll answer your question, but are women holding up their end of the bargain on that? In what you like the imaginary world? Yeah, currently currently you said all women are chased and blah blah blah. No, that's not the case currently.

Brian AtlasThat's like in the imaginary world. That's But we'd have to analyze at the individual level as well. Yeah, sure. Generalization. Well, and also I just because women reject their traditional

Brian Atlasgender roles, it doesn't necessarily mean mean men must also reject theirs.

Brian AtlasUm I I reject the disposability of males. So um I think uh yeah I would I'm against

Brian Atlasit. I that's the only way I can answer your question. I don't think men should like die for strangers basically. I think there's an argument to be made. Should men die for like their family,

Warren Smiththeir children, uh maybe their wife? But if there's a war, and let's say there's a repeat of D-Day, we don't go in. If we don't, who who will who will then? Yeah.

Brian AtlasWell, you know, it's it's interesting. I mean, maybe I'm being a bit pedantic here. I think the United States involvement in World War II is a bit overstated. Uh like Russia would have just Russia would have wiped the floor

Brian Atlaswith Germany, but that's another conversation. Um uh there's no wrong answer. I think it's a really fascinating experiment.

Brian AtlasUm it's difficult because I mean my position on war is I find most wars uh even even many of historical wars like just kind of pointless. Uh World

Brian AtlasWar II there's a there is a like more stronger ethical moral argument there. World War I kind of totally pointless. some uh arch duke Frer Fernand was assassinated and that had like a

Brian Atlascascading effect where like all these uh like European powers gone. Anyways, uh Vietnam was stupid. I feel no like national duty or pride to like go bomb

Brian Atlaslike Southeast Asians. That was kind of ridiculous. Invaded us like a defensive war uh and they had to enact a draft. Should they be drafted? Should women, you know, would

Warren Smithyou want them running around with guns? Uh, no offense, the Dutch woman. Yes, she can. I feel like you could handle yourself. I shouldn't have said it like that, but I'm just I mean, the thing is I You're good. I don't want to be in the

Brian Atlasword. While I do consider myself more conservative, I have some diver divergences in so far as I I put my I consider myself like a male advocate.

Brian AtlasSome people call this like men's rights advocacy. So I put that beyond uh like conservative positions because uh conservatives and feminists are actually

Brian Atlassimilar in a lot of ways but uh what do you mean in how conservatives and feminists are are similar? Uh so I

Brian Atlasthink well it depends what brand of feminism we're kind of looking at but I think like there are there's a component of feminist movement that looks towards men's agency to like uh it's but there's

Brian Atlasa blame that goes on like it's men's fault men need to fix it whereas conservative will say won't put a blame on men but they'll still say like agency

Brian Atlasfalls on men need to be uh the ones like fixing problems and like uh being responsible and like leadership positions in like wartime and being soldiers and so forth. I got you. I I just don't think it comes from I think

Warren Smithit comes from the fabric of reality. It's not coming necessarily from society. It looks like that. It's just it's just an it's an unfair aspect that is baked within the fabric of reality itself and has always existed. So I but

Brian AtlasI don't know like there's probably definitely been historical wars probably like smaller scale conflicts where it was just like there's a belligerent an aggressor who's like we're going to

Brian Atlasconquer your land uh and then like the people the soldiers in the defensive position there. I think there's like good argument to be made that these men

Brian Atlasshould step up for the defense of their land and by extension like historically there were a lot of like war crimes per uh committed towards women like essay

Brian Atlasgrape for example. So like probably uh a cohort of men in these societies don't want to see their women either their wives or just their uh country

Brian Atlaswomen I guess getting raped. Uh, and then they just wanna and then if they do lose the war, the men are going to get killed anyway. So, it's like that's kind of compelling, but like would I want to

Brian Atlaslike if it was the late 1960s, early 1970s, would I want to get shipped off to Vietnam? No. No. Yeah. I And I wouldn't feel like patriotic if I went

Brian Atlasto like Vietnam and just I don't know that specific war. I don't I didn't I wouldn't have seen the purpose. But, um, I agree with that. There might have been a more noble cause like in World War II.

Brian AtlasAnyways, I feel like I'm just kind of sorry avoiding. No, no, you're fine. I was So, did I I don't know if I even answered your question, though. I think I was just yapping. We can follow just I'm intrigued in the difference between conservative or the comparison of

Brian Atlasconservatives and feminists and how they're similar. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think the best way they're they're obviously not the same, but there are a

Brian Atlaslot of similarities. I mean, maybe you've heard of the what's it called? The horseshoe what is what's that called?

Brian AtlasHorseshoe theory where like the political spectrum like as I I could be misstating this as you get to some of the extremes of like the left or the

Brian Atlasright, they tend to have like a lot of similarities. Actually, I I'm not a like political guy, so I'm probably butchering that explanation, but I maybe

Chelseato bring it back to your point. Weren't you asking something on this about draft or what? Lost my train of thought. Yeah, it initially started with her asking if you wanted to be the change you want. Oh, yeah.

Brian AtlasWell, I mean, I don't know. Um, I I think when it comes to the Titanic specifically, uh, I would have

Brian Atlasno objections. Uh, men men opting to try to self-preserve their life. Like, I wouldn't like I would if if it's like,

Brian Atlasoh, there's a woman. I'm going to give my seat on the life draft for a woman for a stranger as well. It's like logic. Yeah. It's less that she's a woman. It's

Brian Atlaslike I would also not give it to another man too. Um, but there would be a social like pressure component of like women and children first. So, if I could opt

Alina (Russia)to take the seat over a woman, I would. I guess it just comes down to how you want people to see you, how you want others to see you. and like down in history. Do you want to be seen as the guy who saved himself? And uh as a

Brian Atlasresult of that, [ __ ] brave heart, there was women and children. Freedom, bro. Look, I don't care. Like, I'm dead. I'm not going to like I don't think you should be a piece of [ __ ] while you're alive, but I think it's fine to like

Brian Atlaswant to self-preserve here. Here's the here's my position that will probably piss off the whole panel. when if there's uh I think the let's say I'm

Brian Atlaswith my girlfriend or wife or whatever and one of us has to die she can die like there's a bullet and hypothetical bullet right one of us has to take the bullet she can take the bullet you would

Alina (Russia)have to live with that for the rest of your life though you know what I'm saying like hypothetical like if you don't care about that I guess that's your life but for some people they just could not live with

Alina (Russia)that like my wife died My wife died and I'm still alive. My child died and I'm still alive. Like I'm still in this world. I'm still have the audacity to like go and live my life and like stuff like that. But the people who

Alina (Russia)I love most in my life, who I made a commitment to like that, they died at the like to save me and I'm still alive. If you're saying that feel I would have

Alina (Russia)bad feelings, you No, it's not about feelings. Exactly. It's also how people who know you see you. you're like a public figure. It's how everyone would see you.

Brian AtlasUm how you would go down in your history. Well, I think it's actually I'll go down in history as being incredibly honest because most people would virtue signal

Brian Atlason this point, but when they're in the actual heat of the moment and like a lot of people would virtue, oh yeah, I would sacrifice my life for my girlfriend or wife or whatever. I think most men are actually honest when they say that, but

Brian Atlasthere's probably a cohort of men who will virtue signal and say, "Yeah, I'd be willing to sacrifice my life for my girlfriend." But like for example, Andrew Tate, he says, "Oh, it's my duty." The reason that I get to have

Brian Atlasthis traditional dynamic with women where they're like doing all the XYZ things for me and I'm going to be dominant. They're going to be submissive is because I'm going to be willing to protect her. And if that means

Brian Atlaspotentially dying for her, then that's why the woman should be submissive is that's one. He probably has other arguments, too. I actually don't believe

Brian Atlashim. Andrew Tate dates has multiple women like he he's a unidirectional uh polyam like he they're all uh exclusive

Brian Atlasto him. Mhm. But he sees multiple women, right? I'm confident that he would sacrifice any of his women to continue living. Like he's a it's a total virtue

Brian Atlassignal. Did I say Andrew Wilson? No, you said Andrew. I said Andrew Tate. Okay. Yes. Andrew Tate would not sacrifice his life

Warren Smithfor one of his many girlfriends. So he he claims to it's his job to protect. Therefore, that require in order to protect that requires the authority to protect. I'm not saying I agree with

Brian Atlasthem. Yeah. Yeah. But do you plan to have multiple girls or just one? No. But I'm saying that like what I am saying is that I think I would believe a majority of men who say they'd be willing to die for their wife in this sort of

Brian Atlashypothetical scenario. But I think there is a cohort of men who will virtue signal and lie about it for sure, but they wouldn't. I'm just willing to say no. I would not be willing to take a

Alina (Russia)bullet for my wife or girlfriend. But there's also men who say that and they actually mean it. And don't you think it would make it would make your girl uh want to be more submissive to you if she knew that you would take your So you're

Brian Atlassaying I should lie. No, not lie. Actually mean it. Oh, so just change my world view. Want to die? Yeah, but I'm just not because like like I'm just not.

Warren SmithWhy? Well, one day you might have a kid and I've experienced this. And when you have a kid, it change it changes and you will and suddenly you'll feel that you like whoa I would give myself for

Brian Atlassomeone else. Oh yeah. So to be clear like for a child of separation for the child yes wife nah relationship. What if she's pregnant?

Alina (Russia)We're going to get into a [ __ ] abortion now. Um nah. You wouldn't save her life if she's cuz that's your child too. Do you know what I'm saying?

Alina (Russia)Probably it's a it's it makes it more complicated. How far how far along? Oh god. You can see this life a life in your life no matter what part of the

Brian Atlaswomb. What's that? A life starts at conception. I agree with that. But I suppose it would have like some She's two days pregnant. Oh yeah. She can take the bullet. Four months. Where does it take where

Brian Atlasdoes it start where now it's like okay this is my child. I'm not saying it's so I'm I'm going to go ahead for the sake of the well I'm going ahead and grant that life begins at conception.

Brian AtlasSo she literally the the sperm implants or whatever the [ __ ] she can like yes still take the bullet from that point on. At what point does that change? Yeah that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Where do

Brian Atlasyou draw the line? I just to be clear that I'm not making I'm not making or taking a position on abortion by saying this but like the head's popping out like and the doctor just goes crazy.

Brian AtlasHe's like, "I'm going to [ __ ] stab your baby." I'll be like, "Uh, and just jump in front of the knife or some shit." I don't know. Some crazy chicks in the [ __ ] operating room with us. I don't know. Your baby. You were saying

Lyannain the future though, if you had a kid and it was you or the kid who had to die. Yeah. Would you die for your child? Yeah. For my kid? Yes. Just not for your wife? Yeah. Cuz I could just get another wife. Okay. Just not for your pregnant

Alina (Russia)wife who's pregnant with your twin sons. Twin sons. Twin sons. Twin sons. Oh my gosh. triplets. Oh man, it's hard. It's hard.

Brian AtlasUh, I don't know. I would do as much as I can. This is like the Jordan Peterson cop out. I would do as much as I could to not be I would never be in that. I would

Brian AtlasI've made so many mistakes by that point. So many mistakes. I would just, you know, do everything in my power to not be in that that position. Would you want your wife to die for you? Would I

Brian Atlaswant her to die for me? Sure. That'd be Yes. That's a ride or die. Like, but that's about the ride or die. She's probably lying about it, too. No, I don't have I don't want to be ride or die. She has to be She has to be ride or

Katrina (Greek)die. Why does she owe you that loyalty then if you're not going to owe that loyalty? Because I believe in unfair dynamics. Okay. A bit feminine. I don't believe in fairness. What's that? It's a

Brian Atlasbit feminine of you. How's that feminine? Wait, hold on. Let me say you look Go ahead. say that [ __ ] You want her to die for you, but you won't die for her. Of course, you want her to want to die for you. But here's the thing. I

Brian Atlasdon't want to die for her. Well, I wouldn't not date her. But if she's like, "Brian, I accept that you will not take a bullet for me. I love you so

Brian Atlasmuch. I'll take a bullet for you. Hell, why would I not? But what if I not do it? Is Is that I don't care. Most women wouldn't anyways." So it doesn't determine like how if you date her or

Brian Atlasnot, if she take a bullet for you or not. It's not a dealbreaker is what you're saying. No. If she was like not willing to take a bullet for me, I wouldn't cuz I don't think men look to women to be protectors. Of course not. So she's like, I wouldn't take a bullet

Brian Atlasfor you. I'd be like, okay, it's better if you would, but I don't care. It's better if you would. But look, uh, here I'll say it like this because I get I get attacked for this position. Brian,

Brian Atlasyou're so feminine. Felicity. Thank you. You're such a feminine man. You're a beta male. You're a beta male, Brian, for refusing to die for a woman. But if

Brian Atlaswe look back at some historical uh some some men in history, I don't think we would categorize them as betas, and these men would undoubtedly

Brian Atlassacrifice women for themselves. Genghaskhan had hundreds of concubines and wives. If he was presented with this

Brian Atlashypothetical, Mr. Genghaskhan, you currently have you pro, he doesn't even know the name of like half his wives and [ __ ] He doesn't even know the names of them. You're not think

Brian AtlasI know. Hold on. Hold on. I know. I'm working on it now. You think Genghaskhan is going to be like, "Well, I'm the leader of like Mongolia and I've conquered all this land, blah blah blah,

Brian Atlasand I've got like you're replaceable and I've got a million wives and he's going to like get rid of the wife before he gets rid of himself." I Gangghask Khan was an alpha

Katrina (Greek)male. Well, that makes sense. Gangaskhan, we can't say he's a beta male. But the example that you're using is that this man, just like with Andrew Tate, this man, women are disposable to him because he has multiple partners. Correct. Wouldn't it be different?

Katrina (Greek)Wouldn't you argue that it could be different if you just commit yourself to one person? This is Well, yeah, but then that would because you haven't thrown out a scenario yet where it's just given an example of another individual who has

Katrina (Greek)committed themselves to one person. It's it's only been multiple women, which that would make that would make women less valuable to that man, wouldn't you think? He wouldn't value them as much

Brian Atlasbecause he has so many of them. Yeah. I mean, I would tend to agree with you that men who like ha have multiple Wait, hold on. So, they're the women are less valuable than him is what? No, what I'm

Katrina (Greek)saying is that because he he has so many wives or so many partners, he doesn't value them. He doesn't hold them to a value the standard. Not as highly though. I don't think he values them as

Katrina (Greek)you would if you were in a committed relationship just one-on-one. The respect that you have for that one person like how Only Fans or uh porn stars rather you know how they you know they don't you know what I mean? I mean

Brian AtlasI I would agree with I I don't think I disagree. So okay a man who has one wife is going to value that one wife more than a man who has like four wives is going to like

Katrina (Greek)value. He's he's probably going to have less value. He's gonna say, yeah, he's gonna say, "Oh, this one can go. This one can go. I'll get more. They're disposable. If he has multiple, but if it's just one, you know, if he's has the right the mindset for that, you know,

Brian Atlascommitted to one woman, he'll think differently." He won't see women as easily disposable. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, I would tend to agree that if you have one of a thing, you're probably more likely

Brian Atlasto value the one of the thing that you have. Mhm. So if you have one wife Yeah. you wouldn't take the the bullet for her. No. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But I'm just

Brian Atlasthe the the reason I brought up gang is con was because of the criticisms of it's very feminine or beta to be unwilling to die for a woman. But I giving I I guess it's like very extreme

Brian Atlasexamples like looking at these examples of like okay you would I don't think you would categorize Genghask Khan who would I mean look I we probably don't have historical records if he's well I mean

Brian Atlaswe know enough about him to probably make a reasonable determination that he would not sacrifice himself for one of his like concubines or wives. Well that was he probably he probably [ __ ]

Felicitykilled some of them. My point was that you would want her to want to die for you. That's what that's why I said that's kind of feminine of you because you're like, I'm not going to die, but she can die for me and I would want

Brian Atlasthat. Why? I I suppose it would be selfserving to have a woman who would be

Brian Atlaslike, wouldn't that be better to have a woman who's willing to die for you? Sure. Because that would mean that like let's say there's a okay there's a bullet

Brian Atlasboom we maybe we both dodge it but if she's 100% going to take it for me why would I not want but you said even if she's pregnant like really why you guys got to try to get me in a trap with the

Felicityabortion thing basically why she has a really big labia Brian

Brian AtlasNope so feminine of you I don't think I don't think it's I don't think It's feminine. I'm just kidding. Uh I actually think in a lot of

Brian Atlasways it would be it's well I don't know if it's I it's maybe neither feminine nor masculine,

Brian Atlasbut I think it's more cutthroat this desire to uh want to preserve your own life.

Brian AtlasI think I use the word feminine because it's like wanting to be protected. No, it's not that I want to be protected. It's a unwillingness on my part to I I

Brian Atlasdon't want to die for a woman. So, the desire is to be cutthroat. I don't know if it's necessarily cutthroat, but can you just say that?

Alina (Russia)Don't you say like men like men have duties, women have duties, stuff like that? You say that? Uh yeah, I think sure. So what's the man's duty uh to to

Alina (Russia)women or to society? To women in a relationship? Yeah, sure. Uh provide and protect. Okay. So wouldn't it be protecting if you are willing to take a bullet for her? Wouldn't that be protecting? Yes, it would be protecting.

Brian AtlasBut there are there are for example, you would agree that it would be providing to become a trillionaire and like that would be the ultimate manifestation of providing for a woman to become a billion or like billionaire.

Brian Atlasif you're spending that money on your family. Yeah. But like for example, let's say I want to have like a good work life balance and I could make an extra $100,000 a year if I work

Brian Atlasovertime, but I choose to not work overtime. That would be like a rejection of my role as a provider to some degree. Are you still providing able to provide for your

Brian Atlasyour providing it would be uh I would still there would be a baseline of provisioning but I could provide more. Similarly, there would be a baseline of

Brian Atlasprotection and the the extreme of protection would be sacrificing your life for your wife. So in the event of a house invasion, I'm going to get my gun

Brian Atlasand try to dispatch the home invader. But like in a hypothetical extreme hypothetical scenario where it's like one of you has to

Alina (Russia)die, she can die. You're saying you would take on the home intruder. You would take on the home intruder instead of your wife. So you so you would put your life at a risk for your girl that

Brian Atlasyou love. But there's a component of I'm also at my own life is at risk if there's a home intruder. Yeah. But you're saying, but a component of that would be I'm I'm by extension also uh

Brian Atlasprotecting my children and my wife. What if you don't have children? Then yeah, I'm also protecting my wife, but I'm also protecting me. I'm not just going to be a little [ __ ] if there's a home invader and just be like, "Oh, honey,

Alina (Russia)you go deal with it." No, I'm going to get my gun and I'll deal with it. But you would be that way if there's that situation where one of your lives is getting taken. would be that little P

Alina (Russia)word and like, okay, you can take the bullet, honey. Yes, that's why I've been saying for the past 30 minutes. Okay, that doesn't make sense cuz in one situation you're like, yes, I'm taking on this intruder that could kill me. In the other one, you're like, no, honey,

Katrina (Greek)you take on the bullet that will kill you. So, as soon as it's guaranteed that you're dying, you're immediately just like, nope, that's all you. But if it's like up in the air, a coin flip, you know, you have a chance to fight it off. You're you're you will defend your base.

Brian AtlasIt's the hypothetical, right? Like if if you look at the trolley problem or the trolley dilemma for example, in what world is anybody ever going to literally have like there's a there's you're all

Brian Atlasof a sudden uh like on a train track and you can pull a lever and you can divert it to kill one person instead of five. This is never going to happen. It's just a hypothetical situation. Well, wouldn't you argue that getting shot or being

Brian Atlasfaced with a bullet is more likely than that that scenario of being tied down to a trolley to a to a train tracks? Yeah, sure. The hypothetical. Yeah, sure.

Brian AtlasThat's more likely to happen. But I I mean I the scenario where it's like one person has to move in front of the bullet and to block. I mean, it's not realistic with timing considering how I

Warren Smithdon't think that that's really that's why we use the Titanic example. What would you do, Warren? You gonna you going to get on the life lifeboat or you going to what are you going to do? Acknowledging that many people will say

Brian Atlasthat they would and there's no way to know it. I'm gonna say I would though. Yes. You would get on the lifeboat or you'd stay on Sorry. I I would not. You'd stay

Brian Atlason the Titanic and sync. Okay. I I don't I don't have I don't have external to me push back for

Warren Smithanybody who would choose to do that. Um, aside from like uh I think it is a sad state of affairs that like I I live I believe in a higher power as well

Warren Smiththough. So I I believe how you live. It's not just what you do but how you do it in a way that's more profound than we can even articulate and understand. Let me ask you a follow-up question Warren. Uh how do you categorize yourself

Warren Smithpolitically? Are you conservative, moderate, liberal? I don't know. I'll pull a Peterson on that. On some things I'm probably more conservative. Okay. So, let's say you're

Brian AtlasTitanic situation. You could choose like person B. Person B, what the [ __ ] Person A, you can opt

Brian Atlasto take person A's seat. Only that person's seat on the life preserver. You know, person A's seat. uh this person is completely

Brian Atlasideologically opposed to you and you know they're a bad person and they're also a child abuser under that

Warren Smithcircumstance. Do you take their seat? It's not it's not about that. It's a By the way, that was a ridiculous Yeah. I think your point though. Yeah. But what

Warren Smithyou do in that person it's as someone mentioned the legacy your grand how your grandchildren view you how history views you how a higher power views you how's everyone on that lifeboat views you it's

Warren Smithnot about the person whose seat you're taking so that they can die because they're a child abuser it's about something much deeper than that it's so that your relatives the guys who stormed

Warren SmithNormandy it wasn't about an individual a single it's about something much larger that I think is deeply ingrained in them that caused them to be willing to do that and which why and we can't grapple with that today in the same way because

Brian Atlaswe've kind of lost that that was I I so this is where I struggle with the Norband D example though is that certainly there were many

Brian Atlasmany veterans in World War II who were exceptionally brave and noble uh but I I do wonder that there probably also

Brian Atlasum like I wonder if there's some degree degree of the words uh evading me of storytelling that goes on when it comes

Brian Atlasto the sacrifices of young men related to like the Normandy landing or like other military conflicts like the actual process that

Brian Atlaslike I don't know if like during the like say somebody was shot during the Normandy landing and then they like live for another like 30 minutes and they're bleeding out and they're dying

Brian AtlasI'm not sure if like what's going through their head in that moment is like I'm doing this for my country. Like I have this sense of pride like uh

Brian Atlasglory. Like they I don't think in that moment they're like glory. I think they're like calling out for their mothers and they're like oh my god I'm coming from [ __ ] Nebraska and I had

Brian Atlaslike Betty Sue. I don't disagree with you and now I'm in [ __ ] What's your point though? My point is is that we perhaps romanticize the glory of war. And I do think there there's plenty of

Brian Atlasmen who are brave and they go out [ __ ] guns blazing and that's badass. But I think like probably the majority of men who die in war, it's like cold

Brian Atlasand alone in some trench in a foreign territory or whatever it is. And it's not glamorous and there's no glory and and or they're not even they're

Brian Atlasliterally just they're [ __ ] smoking a cigarette. they're eating their uh their their ration and like [ __ ] a shell just implodes their face and they're dead instantly and there's not even a

Brian Atlasthought process of like glory or anything like their sacrifice to the country

Brian Atlasuh that that should be uh respected but I in that moment on the individual level I don't I don't know I don't see it I think you're right yeah if if a bomb

Warren Smithlands on your head you're not going to think about much in that moment. Brigadier Nicholson, for example, at Dunkerk, they they said, "Draw the fire." Knowing they gave that command knowing 13,000 men were committing

Warren Smithsuicide. They had they not done that, they would not have been able to save 300,000. They have lost their almost their entire army. Was that the right call? Was this was it you said World War This

Warren Smithis World War II dunk made the order to brigadier. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, wait, what's the question? Basically, you sacrifice the few to save the many is what he's asking. 13,000 men to draw the German fire away

Brian Atlasso that they could pull 300,000 men off and save their entire army. Yeah. I mean, I do think there's a component of masculinity where it's like what I'm talking about. Well, where you're like

Brian Atlassacrificing Well, she was making the point necessary. There's one right move on the chessboard. You don't make this move, you lose your army. Oh, you lose your entire army. Your minds when the bomb Sure. Okay.

Warren SmithWell, now we're getting away from the Titanic example, though. What leads men to be willing to take part in such an endeavor? What leads them? You tell me. I mean, this is a more philosophical question. That's why that goes back to the Titanic

Brian Atlasexample. The same thing that would motivate you to not do what you're But like the the men who died on the Titanic, why do you think they are they like why do you think they didn't get on lifeboats and

Brian Atlasthey just stood there? There's not like a Titanic men's remembrance. Maybe there is. I don't [ __ ] know. There's not. There's not their sacrifice. Whereas we have like Memorial Day. We have

Brian Atlasveterans, you know, uh soldiers tend to be uh you know have have holidays dedicated to them. But like just a dude on the Titanic. It's like So you only do it if there's like here make a

Alina (Russia)compelling argument for why I should not. They're honored within their family. within their family like that's my this is my grandfather who died on the Titanic for my grandma. Like that's

Brian Atlaswhat matters to them. Yeah. But like children at what point does does Okay. Let's say you're the main provider for your family and you're on the Titanic

Brian Atlasand I know if I die on the Titanic just the ver just by virtue of my death that's going to be extremely alarming to my wife. Let's say I have kids to my uh I have parents, I have uh siblings.

Brian Atlasthat's going to be really hurtful to them. And then let's say I'm the main provider too. Uh my children are going to grow up potentially in poverty. My

Brian Atlaswife is going to grow up struggling. So I don't know if the tradeoff of wow my my family is going to be like wow he was so honorable like I'm looking at it from

Brian AtlasI don't know if it's more of a utilitarian perspective. Me remaining alive is going to serve a greater purpose to my family. It's going to avoid the I get your point. It's gonna

Brian Atlasit's going to avoid the pain and suffering that they deal with as it relates to just my death and then like I'm going to be gone. Can't provide for

Brian Atlasmy kids and family. Uh but uh like they the the exchange would be but if I do die and all those bad things also

Brian Atlashappen, they will feel a sense of like wow my father died with honor. [ __ ] [ __ ] honor. I'm going to survive. I'm going to do what it takes to survive for my family. But that's why they're not

Warren Smithchecking, okay, how indispensable are you to your family before we let you on this boat? It doesn't matter if you're upper class, middle class, poor. Mhm. All the men do the same thing, right?

Brian AtlasBecause that's what we do. What we do Well, I would just reject that. We have to. We have to. Why do we have to? Going back to Brigadier Nicholson, what's the right move? But I think it's unfair to

Brian Atlassay like, okay, they had to. But let me ask you, Warren, let's say you were um I wouldn't want to. I get your point. No, no, you wouldn't want to, but you would do it regardless, right? I wouldn't I I

Warren Smithwould not want to risk I would not Yeah, I would not want to throw I would not want to throw away. I don't What's the point? It's It's a deeper It sounds crazy. No, it's

Warren Smithjust I wouldn't to to survive. It's a biological imperative. I wouldn't get I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If you let your

Brian Atlasgirl I would I would probably commit suicide like the guy. You wouldn't wait. What happened in the movie? He shoots himself. Oh, because he was like, "Oh my god, people think I'm a [ __ ] because I

Warren Smithsurvived. [ __ ] them." It was deeper than that. I don't think we can really understand the human soul in this way. Really? It eats away at us. And I I maybe it's because I believe in a higher power. I think that evil is not a social construct. It exists and it can creep

Warren Smithin. Well, you think you think good intentions and often we can logic our way into bad decisions because it's when illogical behavior saves you is what is intriguing and that's where

Warren Smithspirituality for me lies. It's the only explanation. So we we were talking about with Brigadier and Nicholson, but Churchill saying, "No, we're going to fight to the last man only when the last one's choking their own blood, which is

Warren Smithnot logical." Everyone around them is saying, "Do the logical move." What's the They're making your argument. What's the point of going down fighting when we can appease with Hitler, surrender and

Warren Smithlive? And he said, it's better to die defending the temples of your of your ancestors. That will allow your forebears to rise again one day. But I

Brian Atlasthink the calculus here is a little bit different because if we're looking so uh if I take somebody else's seat in the life preserver on the

Brian AtlasTitanic only one other like it's one life to one life whereas like there are I I don't know if it's a totally fair

Brian Atlascomparison or equivocal to say okay well if we sacrifice 10,000 soldiers to save a hundred hundreds of thousands of soldiers that's something commonly done in warfare where it's like well okay

Warren Smiththere wouldn't be one life though because it's all the men don't do it unless you're the only one and that's what makes you lose your legacy. Wait,

Warren Smithall the men the men voluntarily stay back except the one who doesn't. And that's why all the women sit there and

Brian Atlasstare at him. Well, destroys. I mean, I'm very much okay with women disag like giving me a Oh my god, you're I'm okay.

Brian AtlasLike I'm not but I would not social pressure uh or disapproval like women's disapproval is not going to be

Brian Atlassufficient enough for me to be willing to die because of women's disapproval. I was using that as no I no I know I know an example of it's some it's much deeper than just the women on the lifeboat looking at you. You mentioned the word

Warren Smithevil though. Do you think it's it would be it's evil for a man to get on the life preserver instead of a woman in that to be logically consistent. I mean I was trying to make

Warren Smiththe point of it's easy to logic your way into evil. I'm not sure I mean it is self-preservation and it's it's unfair but it's so I'm not sure if evil would be the right word for it but I I think

Warren Smithit goes against something deeper. I bring in the idea of the kids. What if your kids Mhm. were unsure unsure and they would know that would be enough for me. And if that would be enough for you,

Warren Smiththen it shows you the magnitude of that decision about this is something deeper even if you don't have kids. Oh yeah. I mean I I would be prepared though to say

Brian Atlasuh and if my position isn't clear, even if I had nobody in my life, I would still take that option. You'd be more likely if you had no one in your life. That's my point. to to what to if you did have kids and they were going to and

Warren Smithyou would come home to them and they would know and that would be your legacy. It would go down let's just metaphorically let's just for the thought experiment it would go down into history and then you'd be in this movie in 2012 or whatever and they're depicting you on screen and that's how

Warren Smithyou're going to be remembered. You're saying it doesn't matter to you and I can understand that. That's a logical argument. Why would you're dead? Who cares? Oh okay. Uh, wait. So, okay, there's So, you're saying like but when

Brian AtlasI'm still alive is what I'm saying. And in that moment, that would make me take a different course of action. Well, so just to be clear, like when I say I don't like it could very well be the

Brian Atlascase like being labeled a coward, uh, that would bring some degree of shame. It's not that I'm saying that there

Brian Atlaswouldn't potentially be guilt or shame. But I think my desire to like assume say I have a family right my desire to survive for the benefit of my family and

Brian Atlasthen also I'm I'm not going to virtue signal the benefit of myself and self-preservation I am willing in terms of the calculus of you know the com the comparison uh the comparison of all

Brian Atlasfactors uh the totality of all the circumstances survive but like have shame I will I would rather survive and

Brian Atlashave shame than die and go out doing the honorable thing. If that makes sense. No, I get your position. We're just We're kind of repeating it now. Yeah.

Brian AtlasYeah. And even like I would also frame it to my kids like I there could be social pressure impacting my kids like, "Whoa, your dad wasn't willing to die."

Brian AtlasI'd be like, eh, you know, you might think that, but also I'm still here now and your guys' life would be way more [ __ ] up if I still wasn't alive. So to me, it's like to the benefit of the

Brian Atlasfamily to to the benefit of myself. And that supersedes the external social pressure, social shame, social guilt.

Brian AtlasAnd uh yeah, and I I reject the disposability of males. So, it's just I think it's a pretty coherent worldview.

Warren SmithI agree with you. Males should not be I don't males should not be disposable. But I mean, within your worldview, aren't they? No, I'm taking a specific hypothetical whether it's Brigadier or

Warren SmithNicholson or the Titanic and saying if you were in this horrific situation, what is the the the least bad course of action? To the mic, if you can. That doesn't mean I think men are disposable. Like I can't just go I don't well just to be clear I don't think they're

Brian Atlasdisposable but I think society thinks men are disposable under both a well yeah then we go back to the Russian example of like okay if we are invaded what do we do like you know because it's

Brian Atlasutility well so I I want to explore that a little bit when it comes to duties and there's actually a chat that came in that will probably prompt this let me

Brian Atlaspull up the chat though one sec it is uh beaten cheeks. What duties do women bring to society? Or better yet, what do you bring to the table to get your

Brian Atlasso-called dominant man? Plenty of men in the USA. Women need to be feminist at start, not after knowing a man. So, going around the table, starting with you, uh, what duties do women bring to society?

Brian AtlasGood question. Like bring to society or bring into a relationship? Uh, well, he it's Yeah. Okay. So, what duties what duties do you bring? Like do you have

Lyannaany duties to men and then do you have any duties to society? And when I say men like to your future husband or whatever. Yeah. I mean I think it's hard to say society. I don't know. I guess

Lyannafor me for my man I guess my duty is to be loyal and supportive emotionally there. A motherly figure. Am I going the wrong direction with this? I thought you

Lyannashook your head. No. Oh well when you say loyal I suppos this would be like a equal duty. Mhm. So yeah, I guess to be a motherly figure figure, be supportive,

Lyannabe like emotionally there. I don't know. It's hard to say because I think a lot of things go both ways, but um Okay. Sure. Kind of hard answer. What about you? Scoot into the table if you can. So

Crystal (Netherlands)for society of relationships, both I think for society being teachers, being caretakers, that's important role for women to take and in a relationship. I think like being a cheerleader and also

Crystal (Netherlands)being a place like a safe haven for a man. He can be out in the world being masculine and tough, but he can be funeralable with me and uh yeah, be a

Casey Riveraplace of trust. Okay. Yeah. I was going to say probably the nurturing side to both society and um to

Casey Riverayour relationship because it's more so of like how you nurture your relationships, whether they're friendships, your family members, and your uh or your partner. you're going to want to be there for them to like kind

Casey Riveraof care for them and be in that femininity side and then um yeah, like as you said, supporting as well. So, okay, I agree. I think a female's

Chelseaposition should be a caretaker in society and in the family. I mean, sure, most women are teachers because that's their caretakers. That's what our role in society should be. Okay. What about you? I think the role is to be a mother

Alina (Russia)and to raise children to be valuable members of society and to also take care of your community. Like of course there are women who can't be mothers just because of like health issues and stuff

Alina (Russia)like that. You can still take care of your community and serve your husband um in by anticipating what his needs are and what his wants are so that he doesn't even have to tell you what he

Katrina (Greek)needs. You already know it. Yeah, I agree with uh all of these ladies over here on the panel. Well, I will add one thing. I think it's also a duty of women um to not sell themselves

Katrina (Greek)short or give too much of themselves to just uh anyone and I I mean that you know in terms of like the the world of like prostitution or only fans or anything like that. I think that's very

Katrina (Greek)important. We owe that to society to set a better example um for to to be more respected to be more respected um to not

Katrina (Greek)only men but to other women and also uh children as well. I think that's very important to um uphold those kinds of qualities in order to exude the more

Katrina (Greek)feminine qualities of being a wife and being loyal and being you know just just not being promiscuous. I think that's important. Felicity. Be a good partner, be a good person,

Brian Atlashave children. So, do do women uh so women have a duty to have children? I think we're all here to reproduce.

Brian AtlasOkay. So, I just really quick, I guess bringing it back to like duties. So, what's interesting to me though when it comes to war, and we were talking about

Brian Atlasthis when it came to uh the draft, right? like Russia invades. Um, so for the panelists here, do you think if a

Brian Atlascountry were to invade us, do you think that the men have a duty to like try to fight the enemy, join the military, become a soldier,

Katrina (Greek)anyone who's physically capable, mostly men. I personally would not do very well in I would back out of that. I don't think women should be involved in in combat. I

Katrina (Greek)think it's the woman's duty actually to um become like the the nurse the care take on the caretaker role for the men in war for the soldiers in war nurture them nurse them back to health whatever it is I think women also have a role

Katrina (Greek)granted it's not as severe as the men have you know being uh faced with imminent death every day but I think women also take on that role and I think it is the man's responsibility I don't think women because women are

Crystal (Netherlands)biologically less capable than men I think I just think women should stay out of stay out of combat. I think a more important question is to ask if the men are capable of being protectors

Crystal (Netherlands)nowadays, especially in the USA. I think agree. Yeah, with their diet and lifestyle and and yeah, I mean, someone has to do it and the I

Crystal (Netherlands)don't think the women are going to be in general more capable. So, I think the men do have a duty. They do. I agree completely with you. But are they capable of of uh being the strong men

Katrina (Greek)that we need uh for them to protect us? They should be, but a lot of them aren't as like how progressive things have become, I feel like. And especially like you said with the killed at the war. But

Crystal (Netherlands)why the US? Why did you say the US? Um because I what I've learned uh health-wise it's not like the best place

Crystal (Netherlands)to uh be I think and affects the men especially here like you when you uh need to get into mil in the military you

Crystal (Netherlands)have probably a set of tests you need to do and I'm sure most of the men nowadays are not capable to pass these tests. Um spent 10 days in Amsterdam those guys

Brian Atlasare huge. like six foot over. Mhm. Well, how about this though, cuz we were talking about like if if Russia invades, um let's say you guys knew that Russia

Brian Atlaswas invading and if we didn't draft men. So, what I mean by that is by drafting men, you're forcing them. The state, the government forces them to fight. Like, let's say as a guy, you're like, "H, I don't want to fight." The government's

Brian Atlaslike, "Nope." Send you off to training. They will physically force you. They'll they'll like you try to not go the the military police will come to your you got to put it center if you're stepping

Brian Atlasaway. Um the military police will come to your house. They'll abduct you. We've seen this in Ukraine. They literally abduct men. Does it make the difference between being overrun or not though to

Brian Atlasintroduce that? Yeah, that's so that's what I was going to go to is um if you force men against their will to go and fight uh that is the

Brian Atlasdetermining factor in preventing uh say Russia from invading. And let's say this is like a really nasty version of Russia in some like alternate universe where they're going to kill all the men anyways and then they're going to like

Brian Atlastake all the women as war brides and basically essay them. Um this is obviously something that has actually happened historically in various wars.

Brian AtlasUm so would you guys be advocates for forcing men under these circumstances to fight?

Alina (Russia)Someone has to do it. There's no you have to choose. It's either going to be the men or who else is it going to be? So right but so we now have established

Brian Atlasthat men have a duty to do this. Right. What duties can the state compel women to do

Brian Atlasto help in there's other positions right in um in war? You said you were actually I think maybe you two were the only I think you're the only one who answered this correctly. Uh women's duty is to

Brian Atlashave children. Are they though? No. But I think many of you would object to the following duty. And by the way, just to be clear, I'm not advocating for this,

Brian Atlasbut uh play with me here with the example. Would you be okay with the following example? Russia's going to invade, but in 20 years, I know we have a we can see

Brian Atlas20 years into the future. We don't have the requisite population level uh as it currently stands to combat Russia. But

Brian Atlasif we draft women into h into and they can select their partner but the women uh are drafted to give birth.

Brian AtlasYes. And that's the only way to prevent Russia. We can we know if the women uh each woman has two children. If that's the only way and if and if we

Brian Atlasdon't like basically essentially force women to give birth, then Russia's going to invade and kill all the men and like, you know, do bad things to women. Would you be in favor of forcing women, taking

Lyannaaway their free will, forcing them to have children? Yes, I would agree with What about you? That's hard to say. I don't know. I for me I mean, yeah, I do believe that women

Lyannashould have children. Do I believe all women should have children? Probably not. I think people who are capable mothers should be. Like there's a lot of times where people have children and they are drug addicts living on the

Lyannastreet and now the child has to grow up in that environment. So it's it's I mean your average woman who is financially responsible or whatever. It's like a is like a caring mother. I mean I I think they should if I mean it's getting a

Brian Atlaslittle bit away from the question because like for example with the other example I provided uh it's it's possible that you're going to draft men who are

Brian Atlaslike going to be incompetent soldiers uh when you draft them. Um so in this case yeah it's possible that you would be end up drafting like incompetent mothers I

Brian Atlasguess but invariably we still need them to birth enough uh future soldiers. So under these circumstances, would you be in favor of forcing women

Chelseato give birth to children? Yeah, I guess you worded it that way. When you word it like that, I mean, yes. Like I mean, yeah. And the reason I say this is so we send men off to training when they get

Chelseadrafted and let's say we go to war and they have to go to training. Well, obviously, let's say we have the bad mothers who can't take care of their children. Why would you not make sure that you have people, let's say people who can't even have kids, why would you not have them go ahead and take care of those children and make them into

Brian Atlasproductive members of society to be able to fight? Yeah, there could be an entire system built around this where there's like uh there's like courses that are taught and they're prep the women are

Brian Atlasprepared to like raise the most [ __ ] badass soldiers, warrior children and you know uh guidelines on like nutrition and like you know getting them in good physical shape uh you know this sort of

Alina (Russia)thing. So Alina, your thoughts? Should we be able to draft women to uh I mean, you said it's the only thing stopping the invasion. Yeah. So, yes, most of those women are going to want to have

Alina (Russia)children anyway. So, it's like if the men's free will is being taken away in the way that they have to get drafted to combat, then the women's corresponding

Alina (Russia)responsibility would be their free will being taken away in that way. And they get to choose their partners, too. So, it's like most of them are going to do that anyway. They're going to choose their partner and they're going to have

Katrina (Greek)children with that man. So, I think it's fine. Okay. Oh, yeah. I agree. I mean, I think especially with the choice of uh partner with the choice of partner, I think

Katrina (Greek)that's um Yeah, I think it's okay. I mean, especially since the men can't choose, you know, who's going to uh take them off the you know. Okay. And alive them. So, Sure. All

Warren Smithright. Did you have something on this Warren or No, it was interesting because when you introduce the second condition that that is required in order for

Warren Smithvictory or survival more importantly what often happens and I think the first way it was framed this is how I usually hear this thought experiment framed is just okay well if men are going to be required to fight should women be required to reproduce because

Warren Smithreproducing is equally important but when you make it a victory condition that's when you suddenly saw people change their minds right? We're more on the fence because then it's logically normally I would say you want the

Warren Smithminimum number of negatives. The only it's survival in that scenario. All we need is this negative requiring men but okay requiring women to reproduce that's an additional negative that has no

Brian Atlascorrelation to survival. But when you make it conditional now it's right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um we're going to do some more chats. We have Davon Jackson. I gen generally disagree with

Brian AtlasBrian on this, but it is a raw deal for a man to sacrifice his life to save a woman who will remarry and take some other dude's name. Anyway, the guilt argument doesn't

Brian Atlaswork. Uh Davon Jackson, thank you. Uh he disagrees with me. Raw. It's a raw deal. Yeah, it's a raw deal. I don't know. She's gonna be back on Tinder in like [ __ ] [ __ ] three weeks, man. I'm

Brian Atlasdead. She's at She's on Tinder at the funeral. It's like [ __ ] With a new woman to the funeral. Oh, I was being facicious, but um I don't know

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