1v1 DEBATE: Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #14
Date: 2025-05-04
Duration: 4h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_03Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Oliver Ni House. Topic: Is feminism good for society?
00:08:54
Key MomentJim Bob's force doctrine: feminism is performative contradiction. Women can't grant themselves rights.
00:12:23
Key MomentJim Bob: women's only leverage is chastity and childbearing — feminism inverted this power against them
03:16:00
Key MomentJim Bob pivots on bear question: agrees men are dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them
04:14:08
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism is a lie that inverts what's beautiful about women
04:18:05
Key MomentOliver closing: humans can transcend biological impulses through reason. Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Topics Discussed
00:01:49
Opening Statements
Oliver: feminism = equal opportunity not equal outcome; cites Norway/Sweden GDP, Princeton mixed-gender study. Jim Bob: force doctrine, feminism is performative contradiction affirming patriarchy it opposes.
00:17:17
Force Doctrine Debate
Can power equal legitimacy? Oliver: potential force ≠ actual authority. Jim Bob: inductive reasoning (sun rising). Abortion rights as paradox of women asking men to defend right to terminate.
01:38:00
Women's Obligations
Jim Bob: women bear no obligations in feminist framework. Oliver: pay taxes, follow laws, exist as citizens. Jim Bob: asymmetrical and untenable.
01:42:00
Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Oliver: kidney analogy for bodily autonomy. Jim Bob: abortion destroys the very leverage (childbearing) that gives women power.
03:16:00
Man vs Bear
Jim Bob pivots: agrees men ARE dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them from bad. Brian draws racial variant.
04:14:08
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism requires patriarchy, no obligations. Oliver: humans have capacity for reason to transcend biological impulses; Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Transcript
Page 5 of 6
03:54:57
Oliver N Househer." The last thing on their mind is correcting the pronoun. Same thing with feminist. Of course, I don't disagree with that. That's just the that's just the factual claim that you should focus on larger problems over smaller ones.
03:55:09
Oliver N HouseActually, wait. I want to probably agree with you here a little bit. I think the left and this is a mistake that the left often makes is they hyperfixate on infighting and over who's right over winning power. I completely agree a lot
03:55:22
Oliver N Housethat you know it doesn't matter how right you are if you don't have power, if you don't have the ability to enforce what you you know want to do. So it it you know all of these all these people on the left who are like you know we need to you know correct this person on
03:55:34
Oliver N Housethis or we need to completely shun them from our movement because they express this one view that differs slightly from us. They're hurting our cause. So I will call that out any day as saying we need to have a bigger tent and not a smaller
03:55:46
Oliver N Housetent. And I think that this idea of you know shunning people or like you know saying that these things are I don't know irredeemable like just like insane I don't I don't agree with that. So,
03:55:58
SPEAKER_00okay, we have two more coming in. Selena Gornz, thank you. Selena Gomez donated $2345. Of course, that isn't what happened. Poor guy. I honestly feel for
03:56:10
SPEAKER_00you, but I can see you're smart, so I think you will come around eventually. I think this is in response to the something about being friend-zoned or something. Yeah, I don't I'm not I'm not going to I'm not going to divulge the
03:56:23
SPEAKER_00details of a personal situation, sir. But what the Oliver's mother donated $20. Brian, could you move that dumpy? I can't see Jim Bob's shoulders. Thank
03:56:34
Brian Atlasyou. Slowly but surely. That's crazy. Uh thank you. Uh thank you for that message. All right. Uh final thing here from you, Oliver, then we'll do closing
03:56:44
Brian Atlasstatements. Uh there was this prompt on your TikTok. Is mis misandry more loud than misogyny? Mis or misandry? Yeah, misandry. Yeah. What What's your position on that? Yeah, I kind of already did. We already go. We didn't
03:56:57
Oliver N Housetalk about that specifically, but I into Sorry, we didn't talk about that specifically, but I mean, we that's what I talked about in the Jubilee video that I was a part of. I mean, I do think misogyny is much more prevalent than misandry. Hatred of women is much more
03:57:09
Oliver N Houseprevalent than the hatred of men. um you know all a lot of these things that we conceive of as hatred I just fundamentally don't think are actually hating men. Can you give us some examples of that? Sure. Like examples of
03:57:21
Oliver N Houselike so for example if women express I hate men. Um I think very often we understand we we very often understand people's nonliteral use of language. So for example if I say oh my god I'm so
03:57:32
Oliver N Housemad I'm going to kill him. But you never actually kill someone. It's plausible to say you don't actually want to kill this person. And same thing with kill all men. Same thing with with uh with like I
03:57:42
Oliver N HouseI hate men. These women obviously don't hate men considering most of them have men in their lives that they love. They have uh you know uh many of them can be in relationships. When they're saying that they're expressing a
03:57:54
Oliver N Housedissatisfaction with the way that society is structured and how a certain portion of men are treating them. So I don't think that is indicative of the hatred of men. It's the hatred of how
03:58:05
Oliver N Housemen are treating them. So I don't I don't see an example of misandry that is brought up that can parallel the fact that like three women die a day in this
03:58:16
Oliver N Housecountry due to intimate partner violence at the hands primarily of men. So except for lesbian relationships they're pretty aggressive. I don't I don't pretty high rate of uh pulling each other's hair.
03:58:28
Jim BobOkay. I I have not looked into the I don't I don't have anything to comment on that because I have not looked into uh I actually I mean I kind of agree with you generally that like the hate I don't this term hatred of from either
03:58:40
Jim Bobside is very hard to judge. I just think there's uh I think there's misinterpretations of uh of how women think of men and how men think of women. I think the MIGTOW thing is a little bit
03:58:52
Jim Bobyou can kind of isolate that. I think exploring some of that MIG Tower, are you aware of what that is? It's like men going their own way kind of thing. I think that's a misstep for men and like like abandon women. Yeah. The whole like
03:59:05
Jim BobYeah. Like that's I think that's a mistake. Um and that's the closest thing I could get to like you know misogyny as far as their rhetoric. But men who want women to be in at the in the home, I
03:59:17
Jim Bobthink that's a value of women. And I think people who are in your view perhaps need to consider that maybe the person who's arguing for that is actually thinks wholeheartedly that the
03:59:28
Oliver N Housebest place for them for women is actually is actually I think I think relegating a whole subset of human beings who are so diverse in their wants, desires and needs. I don't care
03:59:41
Jim Bobabout their desires. Yeah, thank you for expressing that you don't care about the Why would they No, dude. My own obl Look, but my own obligations as a father isn't based on my desires either. So,
03:59:52
Oliver N Houseit's not like it's not like men are saying we get to fulfill our desires and we don't want women to. You are fulfilling what you believe are the ideal desires of women against their
04:00:02
Jim Bobwishes. Well, no. Men have to do that too because not all men men don't generally wish to put themselves in the line of fire to defend this this weird
04:00:13
Jim Bobabstract idea of women's liberation either. What are you talking women expect men to hold the obligation to defend their rights. Women expect men to
04:00:24
Jim Bobuse the power and privilege that they have to defend and men expect women to fulfill their obligation of having children being a mother. That's not how the obligation goes. Why not? Who says
04:00:35
Oliver N Housewho? Hold on. No, because this I don't think that there's this somehow reciprocaless because what you're saying is basically because you are in need and I can help you, I'm going to leverage
04:00:47
Jim Bobthe fact that I have more power over you to get something out of you. And I think that's really leverage. Yeah. Yeah, it is. No, it's it's not even used as leverage. is basically just stating the
04:00:58
Jim Bobfact if men have the obligation and the fulfillment of using their bodies and and protecting women and upholding the the the literal the the actual nation in its logistics and how it operates from
04:01:09
Jim Bobthe from bridges to to [ __ ] everything else. Dude, hold on. So So women get to float around in this perfect society, a Sims made just for them and and they and
04:01:20
Jim Bobfeminists like you and other women say, "Well, men, you know, you guys have to defend our rights, right?" And then we go men are obligated to be good. Yeah. But what are we getting in return? You shouldn't you shouldn't need something
04:01:31
Jim Bobin return to be to be a good person. So to maintain society, we shouldn't expect from women to participate in the procreation of society. They absolutely should participate in the procreation of society. Should we expect them to? Um I
04:01:42
Oliver N Housethink that if a man wants to marry a woman and wants to have sex, Absolutely. How? No. No. Wait a second. I'm not at all. I'm claiming No, no, no. Wait. I am claiming that Okay. What are we going to do this? Okay. If Are you going to let
04:01:55
Oliver N Houseme make my point? Yeah. One more time. Okay. Sexist. Yeah. You're going to say it again. Okay. If if we're expecting men to um have you men are allowed to have preferences. Men are allowed to say, "Look, I don't want to marry a woman who doesn't want children cuz children are important to me." There's
04:02:07
Oliver N Housenothing sexist about that. There's nothing sexist about that. What's sexism? What's sexism? Define it. I'll let you have your definition of it. Sure. My definition of it, I would say that it would be um contempt for or you
04:02:18
Jim Bobknow, double standards. Double standards on the basis of sex. sex. Cool. So, isn't it a double standard that women and society at large depend and expect? I didn't didn't add something to my
04:02:31
Jim Bobdefinition like unfair or like ungrounded. So, unfair, I don't know who's determining fair, but isn't it the case that it would be sexist, which I have no problem be people being sexist. Yeah. No surprise there. Well, no, it's
04:02:42
Jim Bobnot a wrong thing if if sexist means simply to assume obligation or expectation from one sex based on sex alone. Mhm. Yeah. No. Is that sexist? Uh, yeah. I know. You should do that
04:02:53
Jim Bobinherently on sex. Hold on. Do you accept do you expect men being the collective body of force to defend and uphold the the justice system and law and order and not because they're men, but because they're stronger and those things are different. They are
04:03:06
Oliver N Housedifferent. Wait a minute. It's not because if there are women who are stronger, they also have the obligation to protect those who are less vulnerable than them. It's not because they are
04:03:18
Jim Bobmale. It's because they are strong. Okay. Oh, and and women are capable of having children. So, how is it that you're deriving how is it you're deriving an obligation for men and women based on their strength, which is an
04:03:32
Jim Bobimmune like some characteristics of their body and being able to have children is another characteristic of a body, but you're not applying obligations to that. Wait, I think that people in general h I I don't because I don't think there needs to be
04:03:43
Oliver N Housereproductive obligations because I think we can get to the society, well, not really the now, which is like 1.2 you're under replacement. We are under replacement. And this is some stats and stuff that I brought up. We see and I I
04:03:56
Oliver N Houseclosed my iPad, so I'm not going to bring up the exact stats right now. We see a large return to replacement in societies that emphasize having stronger social programs and economic programs. You mean immigration? No, not immigration. I was not even talking about immigration. I'm talking about
04:04:09
Oliver N Housesocial programs. I'm talking about making it financially more feasible to have children, having things like universal health care, making it more easy for people to receive educations and things like that. We see people willingly and voluntarily start families because it is easy to do so. So, we
04:04:21
Jim Bobdon't have to tell women they have to be in the home instead. I've already debunked that because there are poor people who don't have any social programs and they're having a lot of more kids. What happens? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? It's fine for them cuz they have What do you mean? Why is
04:04:34
Oliver N Houseit is it a good or a bad thing to have cuz you I assume Wait, hold on. Do you think it's a problem of there being a I started having people who are dependent on the government like all the people people Oh, these people are poor and they're having children and they're just
04:04:45
Jim Boblike on welfare. argued, "Dude, you just contradicted yourself. You said, "Let's start a welfare system that aids people to have kids and then you're saying and I go I point to poor people and right I
04:04:57
Oliver N Housepoint to poor people having more kids and you go, "Yeah, but welfare is that's not a good thing." And a lot of you you guys on your side of the aisle, wherever that is, um don't want, you know, like, you know, if you can't afford to have a
04:05:09
Jim Bobkid, don't don't have a kid. Maybe maybe you're not arguing. No, I had a kid when I was poor as [ __ ] Okay. No, I think that I think I don't think that like that's just a preference. It's like you
04:05:20
Jim Bobthink you're ready uh when you have money to have a kid, but having a kid isn't reduced to materialism and providing only there's this whole other set of having a child, right? Financially take care of a child. Do you think it's responsible for them to have
04:05:32
Jim Boba child? Yeah, they can still raise a child who's poor. I grew up poor. Sure, dude. Dude, I come from a family of five and we're dirt poor, so I don't understand. Okay. And do you think it on
04:05:43
Oliver N Housebalance is better if people sometimes it's worse if they're rich? Okay. I I don't I I think that were you rich holding all else equal. Was he rich? Um trust fund. What? No. No trust fund
04:05:54
Oliver N Housealmost. I mean my dad was a trumpet player in the orchestra. So he was a musician for a long period of time. So he was poor. They make bank the trumpet. Oh, do they? The trumpet first. No, not really. Is there a first second chair in trumpet? He was he was first but you
04:06:07
Oliver N Housestill don't get that much in the arts. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it's the arts. I mean, he's a virtuoso, right? He's he's a very He was a very good trumpet player. I mean, he was the only guy I've gotten into Giuliard the year he graduated. So, good guy. Did he force
04:06:20
Oliver N Houseyou away from music? He was like, "Be a lawyer." He didn't force me away. I actually It was funny. I tried to take trumpet lessons from him and he was like, "Well, why would I why would I uh why would I teach you No. Why would I teach you trumpet lessons? You don't listen to me with other things as a
04:06:33
Oliver N Houseparent. I You don't listen to other things I say." I'm like, "Yeah, Dad, but when it comes to trumpet, you actually know what you're talking about." So, He didn't like that. Like, are you more of a saxophone guy? I'm not really. I'm I
04:06:44
Oliver N Housemean, I did musical theater for a while, but I could see that. Performing arts. This is a type of 5,7,600. You were in Rent, weren't you? 525,600. You were in it. I was not in
04:06:56
Oliver N HouseRent. I was not in Cats. Nope. I do not like Cats. That is a bad show. I'm I'm It's interesting that you Interesting that you have No. It's interesting you have so much knowledge of musical theater. Not much. No, just the three main ones. You're wearing a You're
04:07:08
Brian Atlaswearing a shirt. shirt. Just the one musical theater. Just the one about AIDS and cats. That's the only one. There it is. There it is. Okay, guys. Um, we're about to have them do their closing statements. $20 TTS. I'm going to let these come through,
04:07:20
SPEAKER_00then we'll do the rest if there's any after the closing statements. Base Thor. Thank you, man. Base Thor donated $20. Brian, I'm going to report you to the California DMV for operating a dump
04:07:32
Brian Atlastruck without a commercial driver's license. All right. Thank you for that. Uh, base Thor, thank you. Appreciate it. We have Selena again. Uh-oh. Selena Gornz donated
04:07:48
SPEAKER_00$2345. Of course, you won't divulge details. Poor guy. Also, successful women aren't leaving because they're being treated poorly. They're leaving
04:07:57
SPEAKER_00because they think they can do better or are doing too much. Okay. Thank you. Whiffy Gospel donated $20. As the eldest of eight, I can confirm. Beating the
04:08:10
Oliver N House[ __ ] out of your younger siblings makes them better. Jim Bob is right. Interesting how we said not the youngest of eight. Oh, as the one who is doing the beating the [ __ ] out of the people. Well, the thing is I was the young I
04:08:21
Jim Bobhave three older brothers, but I learned to be extremely aggressive back to to to fight them off. And that was it's really helpful. Nice. For what? Well, what is it helpful for? Well, in case I need to do that in the future with you, why do
04:08:34
Oliver N Houseyou why do you need to be beaten the [ __ ] out of in order? In case I have to beat the [ __ ] out of someone. Well, then is there a better way to take self-defense classes to learn that in a way that just adds to my already existing uh practice, though? It's like
04:08:46
Jim Bobit's not one or the other, dude. I I don't think we need kids beating the [ __ ] out of each other in order to not he's being he's being hyperbolic. Like, let's say it's valuable, especially for boys. I don't I don't roughing. I have no problem with roughousing. I think
04:09:00
Oliver N Housewhen you say like beating the [ __ ] out of I think of like an older brother who's just like treated like [ __ ] Like get a black guy. All right, we got Justin. What the heck?
04:09:10
SPEAKER_00Justin Martins's donated $20. I'll bet vaginas dry up within a 50ft radius of Oliver at all times. He's like an X-Man.
04:09:19
Brian AtlasWould an I would Yeah. I don't know. I feel like would that be a superpower to have that effect on women? That's that's I don't know. That's what most I think I
04:09:30
Brian Atlasthink most I don't know. I think I think most incelss have that negative. They have that superpower. Male walking male birth control. Aren't there some X-Men that it's like they have a negative ability? The the negative the negative
04:09:42
SPEAKER_00effect on that. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Intel, thank you, man. Intel wield donated $20. W Jim's in the chat. Nice, dude. Intel,
04:09:54
SPEAKER_00thank you for that. We have one more coming in here. Oh, wow. They are They are uh Wow, they are. Yeah, they're saying things. Jason
04:10:03
SPEAKER_00Castle donated $20. Dude, Oliver, you are so g Why go home, drink a beer, watch a violent movie, go to a bar, and fight the biggest guy and take his girl.
04:10:15
Oliver N HouseJust do something. Here, here's what I'll say. I'm I'm I guess is that cuz I can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult cuz he calls me gay but then claims that he thinks I'd be able to go to a bar and beat up the biggest guy there and take his girl. It's like older
04:10:28
Jim Bobolder brother energy. He wants you to like go go live out as a man. I feel very comfortable being a man in my masculinity. Absolutely. So you never once I've never once felt
04:10:38
Oliver N Houseinsecure in that. Oh, okay. So all right. I I don't feel I have to prove myself manly enough by exuding. Sounds like someone who was raised by a trumpeter. Okay. My father's one of the strongest people
04:10:51
Brian AtlasI know. Would you rather be raised by a trumper or a trumpeter? Yeah. What about somebody who played what what did Weird Al play? What was that? Accordion. Accordion. That's got to be rough. Yeah, that's got to be
04:11:03
Brian Atlasreally rough. Unless it's Weirdowl, but any any other player? Yeah, I know some. I know one. You know what though? I think they secretly the accordion players they
04:11:13
Brian Atlasthey kind of get women. Well, yeah. The accordion players. It's a It's like a pity thing. Oh, it's like sad. It's like a sad It's like the poor persons. It's a pity thing. Okay.
04:11:26
SPEAKER_00Uh oh, wait. Here we have this one. Then we'll do closing. Uh Lulu, hold on. Lulu. Oh, boy. Okay. Lulu donated $19.99.
04:11:37
Oliver N HouseGet Bob another beer and a Shirley Temple for the Froot Loop. Oliver was getting turned on watching Bob obliterate him. He's hoping to go him with him or Brian tonight. Dude, don't
04:11:48
SPEAKER_00don't spoil it. I was trying to make donated $20. Oliver, if I was the youngest, you were the oldest time. He felt his response was worth 20 bucks. I think it's really Thank you, Wi-Fi. Uh,
04:12:00
Brian Atlaswe have a big super chat here. Chef Dylan, by the way, guys, so anytime you see a soup chat and it's like uh 99 cents, usually that means that you sent
04:12:11
Brian Atlasit through uh Apple iOS, so you sent it through like iPhone, iPad, whatever. So apparently, I just learned this%. Yeah, Apple takes 30%. And then YouTube
04:12:23
Brian Atlasafter that takes 30%. Oh, so if it's if it's $100, 40, they end up taking a total of uh 51. So you're left with 49. So it's already bad just doing it
04:12:34
Brian Atlasthrough YouTube. They take 30. But if you do it through YouTube on iOS, so Apple iOS, yeah, I'm uh I'm challenged. English is my uh second language. What
04:12:46
Brian Atlaswas your first French? Oh yeah. So that's why I butchered misendry misandry earlier. If you caused an accident, you would have to give up your autonomy to pay the person with your money earned through your body's actions. I mean,
04:12:59
Oliver N Housesure, but then this kind of just breaks down to the distinction of is there a meaningful distinction between your money and your body? And, you know, there there's, you know, the libertarians till they're blue in the face will say that taxation is slavery because you're taxing my money, which I
04:13:11
Oliver N Houseget through my labor, which is taxing my labor. I don't know. I intuitively there intuitively to me there's a difference between someone taxing money um and like demanding that I donate a pint of blood to cancer research or something. So, I I
04:13:24
Oliver N HouseI don't think they're necessarily equivalent. And I think there's an argument to be made that there is a difference between the two. That the reason we're justified in having someone pay damages if they're in an accident is acceptable, but like giving up their
04:13:35
Brian Atlaskidney would be like a massive bridge too far. And so speaking of that guys, if you're watching and you're using uh iPhone, iPad to send in the super
04:13:46
Brian Atlaschats, YouTube and Apple have taken $100 of this. So, you know, you want Streamlabs, Venmo, Cash App, here you can, uh, cuz
04:13:58
Brian Atlasyou know, you these woke mega corpse, you want to support the whatever podcast, don't give it to them, you know. So, anyways, uh, okay. Thank you, Chef Dylan, for the soup chat, though.
04:14:08
Brian AtlasMuch appreciated. And, uh, all right. So, we're going to do closing since, uh, you went first. Uh, Jim Bob, you're going to go first with, uh, your closing statement, and Oliver, you'll go last. All right. Well, first of all, thanks
04:14:20
Jim BobOliver for coming out and uh Brian for powering through this. Um, so yeah, feminism, you know, the main the main thing with feminism is it's often argued that it's the just thing to do. It's
04:14:33
Jim Bobwhat we should we should move forward toward something. But when we ask the the person the proponent of feminism what it looks like, it every time it ultimately relies on men um uh
04:14:45
Jim Bobfulfilling this duty of upholding this society so that women could pretend that they have liberty really it's just an allowance. So if the if if uh feminism
04:14:56
Jim Bobis merely an allowance from men, the question is okay if men are allowing you liberty, what is the exchange that we get from women? which comes down to
04:15:06
Jim Bobobligations ultimately. So from the uh affirmative position tonight, there is no real obligations. Uh he prefers that men hold an obligation to defend
04:15:17
Jim Bobsociety, defend rights. Um even though uh it's a sexist view because it's it's an expectation of men um to do things that you don't expect of women collectively because you know that there
04:15:29
Jim Bobis no society that upholds its rights, its justice system, its law without the collective of primarily men. Even if there's some butch chicks who can join the squad, it doesn't matter.
04:15:40
Jim BobUltimately, the reality is females want liberation, but they ask for it. And the reason they ask for it is because they can't give themselves liberation. They they aren't
04:15:52
Jim Bobcollectively capable of giving themselves liberation. Men are capable collectively of giving themselves liberation and taking liberation. So the
04:16:02
Jim Bobquestion for feminists is always the same thing. Do you expect men who hold the enforcement arm to provide for you to have your liberation? And they say yes. We ask them what are you going to
04:16:14
Jim Bobdo with it? They said, "We're going to work for Nike and abort our own kids. That's what we get in return for giving women liberation. We're going to vote for uh basically expanded welfareism.
04:16:26
Jim BobWe're going to turn the government into a daycare system. This is what you get from feminism. Feminism takes what's powerful and
04:16:36
Jim Bobbeautiful and right and good about women sex, their sex, their ability to procreate and their ability to be mothers. It inverts it and sells it to
04:16:48
Jim Bobthem to to waste it away in their most fertile years uh by starting Only Fans account and uh and adding their body count to upwards to 50 to 100. It's
04:16:59
Jim Bobgarbage. It's trash. uh no man should support uh female liberation or feminism. It has failed. It's at its its uh peak. It's at the end. Glory to God.
04:17:10
Jim BobAnd uh the next phase is back to the home. And no, it's not oppressive. When women were back in the home, when when women were were raising children, they
04:17:20
Jim Bobwere revered. They were protected. They were seen as um as as the class of people that nobody messed with. And they said, "Well, against the rest of the
04:17:31
Jim Bobwomen, can we just get ourselves into to these high-rise offices and give me a lanyard? I can't wait to acrue debt. It's amazing. I'm liberated." You're not
04:17:41
Jim Bobliberated. You're living a lie. Feminism is a lie. And like I said before, feminism requires the patriarchy anyway. And uh with that, thanks again for
04:17:53
Oliver N Housecoming out. Okay, Oliver, go ahead. All right. Well, I had a prepared closing statement, but since this really didn't go according to any sort of a, you know, guideline that I thought um I'll just
04:18:05
Oliver N Housekind of say my final thoughts here. Um, I think there still is a massive is ought claim that is being made. You know, you can you can say till you're blue in the face that this is how society is. This is how it fundamentally
04:18:18
Oliver N Housewill be if we're left to our own devices. But I think one of the beautiful things about humans is that we have the capacity for reason and we have the capacity to better our society against our biological impulses. And I
04:18:31
Oliver N Housethink that that is something that feminism advocates. Uh feminism does not say that you know denies the difference between men and women. Denies that you know men are on average stronger than women. It says to men look you you do
04:18:43
Oliver N Househave this power. You are stronger. um you know you ought to use it in such a way that does not hurt individuals and there's a element of paternalism here. I mean, you heard Jim Bob a lot compare, you know, like treating women to
04:18:56
Oliver N Housetreating children. And, you know, I I think it's a problem is these people fundamentally, and he's nodding right now, view women as infants, view women as infantilized. And I think that that is why feminism is so necessary and
04:19:08
Oliver N Housecontinue to fight against these ideas where, you know, that these people do not view women as, you know, rational human beings. I mean, we had this whole conversation surrounding intellect. And I think that, you know, it's really
04:19:20
Oliver N Houseunfortunate that this is the type of uh ideas that are becoming more and more prevalent. Um, and I think that as long as these ideas are continuing to be uh spread, it only proves the further need for feminism. Um, I really wasn't able
04:19:32
Oliver N Houseto get into a lot of the empirics of the good things of feminism. Um, but there have been many uh advancements and benefits since the uh arrival of feminism and can be directly attributed
04:19:43
Oliver N Houseto it. Um, society works better when men and women work alongside each other. not um you know one person designated to the home, one in the workplace but alongside each other as you know definitely
04:19:54
Oliver N Houseintellectual equals and realizing that physical reality uh does not is not determinant. It does not determine things necessarily. You know the strong
04:20:04
Oliver N Houseought not rule the weak um and the strong even if they have the power to um make others submit to their will. I think one of the most, you know, defining things about masculinity is um
04:20:16
Oliver N Houseusing your, you know, power effectively and using your power to benefit uh the less welloff and um those who are at a disadvantage um and not using it to further oppress them. So in that sense I
04:20:28
Oliver N Housethink that's why feminism is necessary and you know I hope that we will see um more uh views of this nature um proliferate and less of a slide back towards this view that women uh you know
04:20:40
Oliver N Househave this role that they ought to be in. So um I think a society is better when um we trust women and it is in the virtue of trusting women that I um affirm that feminism has caused great
04:20:52
Oliver N Housebenefits to society and is overall a good for society. So, that's all I got. All right. Thank you both. Uh, thank you to both of you for uh doing the debate. I thought it was uh I thought it was
04:21:03
Brian Atlasreally good. Uh Oliver, we actually have you back in I think about two weeks. You're going to be facing up against uh Andrew Wilson for a sort of similar debate. Uh a couple final things here. I'm going to read super chat.
04:21:16
Brian AtlasChristopher, if you're saying men have an obligation to protect because they have the bi biology to do so, but women don't have an obligation to bear children even though they have the biology to do so. Where is the equality? Quick answer on this if you'd like. I
04:21:29
Oliver N Housecan give an answer. I've given this before. Um, one there might be some sort of parallel here. If the empirical claim was correct that if women are not in the
04:21:40
Oliver N Househome, they fundamentally will not have children. and there's no way to rectify that through societal programs and economic enhancement. I don't think that's the case. So, it is true that
04:21:52
Oliver N Housethose who are stronger have an obligation to protect those who are weaker, use that um to their um benefit. I do think that society is better off if
04:22:02
Oliver N Housepeople reproduce. And I think there are ways in which it doesn't have to be a trade-off. women do not have to give up their autonomy and their liberty and their freedom in order to be you know
04:22:13
Oliver N Housebreeding stock. Um we we can have our cake and eat it too actually. Um and it doesn't have to be one or the other. So I think this unfairly falsely dichomizes an issue that um in which we can have
04:22:24
Brian Atlasboth at the same time. Got it. And we have two uh Streamlabs messages coming in here. I apologize my mic was turned the other way. I was just saying that Oliver will be joining us in about two weeks for he's has a one-on-one debate
04:22:37
Brian Atlaswith Andrew Wilson, so that'll be good. Be sure to tune in for that. We have Selena here. Thank you, Selena Gour donated
04:22:47
SPEAKER_00$2345. Are you live tomorrow? Will Jim Bob be there, too? He's pretty funny. I really appreciate how unapologetic him and Andrew are. All three of you are
04:22:57
Brian Atlasdope. Don't stop doing what you do. You're needed. Yes, Selena. Thank you. We will be live uh tomorrow. Should be a a good panel with our dating talk.
04:23:09
SPEAKER_00Total bluff donated $20. What the [ __ ] The feminist sounds like such a kitten. Trump would probably grab him by the mouth. This is the environment that's cultivated. Just want to say that.
04:23:24
Brian AtlasYou mean people like [ __ ] posting in the chat? You mean the internet? The the internet. the internet at large. Um, I mean, have you seen chicks what they say? I mean, are they making comments
04:23:35
Brian Atlasabout grabbing people's genitalia? I mean, yeah. I think largely that's not a societal epidemic of women assaulting uh one question for you on that. When it came
04:23:47
Brian Atlasyou you mentioned Trump's statements. Yeah. As it relates to like the grab them by the, you know, Yeah. Um, when you were talking about the differences between misogyny and mis um, misandry,
04:23:59
Brian Atlasyou were saying when women say, for example, uh, kill all men or men are trash, men suck, or what, whatever. What was the other one? Uh, I don't know. I
04:24:08
Brian Atlashate men. I hate men. Uh I mean if if you're sort of I guess if you're uh dismissing when women say this then couldn't you also apply this to
04:24:19
Oliver N Housebasically any negative statement towards women or minorities because the power differential is not there. It's it's here we go. If we take take a look at this um in general, do you think it's kind of like I you probably will bite this bullet, but do you think it's
04:24:32
Oliver N Housemorally equivalent when like a white person calls a black person the n-word versus when um like a black person uses the word cracker to refer to a white person? Do you think uh don't use that, but I can't use that word. Yeah, just say like the C word. It's okay. Just the
04:24:44
Oliver N HouseC word is not that, but All right. Well, just for the sake of the stream, it's YouTube and Twitch. Okay, fine. Do you think those two things are like a like equip like we could argue that maybe like neither of them is great, but like
04:24:55
Oliver N Houseyou think they're like historical context. The n-word was the last word that a lot of black people heard before they were like I don't know how can I say lynched like you know lynched. Yeah.
04:25:05
Oliver N HouseSo like that has a much bigger societal connotation than that word the cword that just gets like just do do you think uh sexism can exist towards men? Well
04:25:17
Oliver N Housethat's the idea of Missandrea. I think it can exist. Um, and I think a lot of examples of misandry are almost kind of like manifestations of misogyny. So the idea is that like men can't feel emotions or that men just have to man up
04:25:29
Oliver N Houseor that male victims of abuse aren't actually valid because or like if a man is abused by a woman, it's like dude, you should feel lucky. Like I like the whole like school teacher thing like if a guy sleeps with uh his teacher, it's
04:25:41
Oliver N Houselike oh you know he's he's really lucky for that. It's like no, he's groomed. He was groomed by that. And I think that like that type of dismissiveness of male trauma could be categorized as a form of misandry like unfair. But I think that
04:25:53
Brian Atlasis an example of the societal standards we have and how they negatively affect men. So yeah. So but just to be clear like hateful statements said towards men, it's okay because it's not the
04:26:06
Oliver N Housepower dynamics. I think when we're talking about statements like I hate men. I and this is I don't know if it's something I've revised my position on. um doesn't always fully have. Is it
04:26:17
Oliver N Houseprobably ideal for people to say what they mean um when they're saying stuff? I think so. I think it is probably best clear up confusion. Um you don't want like anyone to get the wrong message.
04:26:28
Oliver N HouseHowever, I think people use nonliteral forms of language all the time. If someone says like, "Oh my god, I'm going to kill him. I'm so mad." No one literally interprets that as like
04:26:40
Oliver N Housethey're going to kill this person. especially if they've never killed anyone. Women are not in mass numbers or even really any significant number offing men. That's just it's not something that's happening. Men are not a serious systemic risk of violence from
04:26:52
Oliver N Housewomen. Yeah, it might hurt some feelings and maybe it's not like a great thing to do, especially maybe if you're trying to get people on your side. But the way that I view that type of discourse is women have been asking politely to be treated better by men for so long. Hey, we'd like it if you stop doing this. And
04:27:06
Oliver N Housethis is actually getting men's attention. It's like, oh my god, you say you hate me. Now I'm listening. And I think in that sense it is, you know, somewhat like, you know, pjorative and it might turn them off, but it at least gets them like having their ears open
04:27:18
Oliver N Houseinstead of just completely that stupid feminism stuff. What you hate me, I'm going to listen. I'm going to listen. Even if it is with a critical eye, at least they're engaged in some sort of conversation. I mean, don't you think that in terms of the there's like I
04:27:31
Brian Atlasdon't know if you've seen like that adolescence show. I've seen it. you know, there's all these criticisms of uh, you know, Manosphere stuff or this this uh young
04:27:42
Brian Atlasboys finding an interest in Andrew Tape, for example. Yeah. Um, seems like this narrative of just sort of open
04:27:52
Oliver N Houseuh, manhatred that's kind of pushing people in that direction. I mean, maybe. So, I I guess I I would I would I would ask you then, I mean, this is really interesting conversation. What are some examples of like misandry that you see or like
04:28:05
Oliver N Househatred of men that you see are like prevalent in society? H I mean just utterances. Okay. Individual utterances. I mean yeah. And
04:28:15
Oliver N Housedo you think that like always people's words should be understood literally. If I say, "Oh my god, slay." Do you think I'm going to kill you? Slay. I I don't think that's fair though. I think that's
04:28:27
Oliver N Housetotally different than Why? Well, I think there's a difference between hyperbole. That is hyperbole. I hate men. Women, do you do you really think that a majority of women genuinely hate
04:28:37
Brian Atlasall men? Of course not. Well, perhaps they don't hate all men. They have like perhaps a generalized Well, okay. For example, if a white person said uh the same thing about black people, would you like take them at face value or to be
04:28:49
Oliver N Houselike, eh, they're just joking? Well, first off, the hatred of white people towards black people has historically throughout history been designed to like it was not in any way like rooted in like a reality. You know what I mean?
04:29:02
Oliver N HouseLike that that's just that's just racism. It's not like it's not they're not they're not it's also a little bit like if if if a black the correct response was like if a black person says like I hate white people because of racist experiences that they'd
04:29:13
Oliver N Houseexperienced like I don't I think that just in general is that okay? Like I just I think there are black people to hate white people. Black
04:29:23
Oliver N Housepeople do hate white people or youth. No hate. I don't think you should women hating all men. There is this type of like biological essentialism which says that men because of who they are are
04:29:35
Oliver N Houseinherently evil. I've seen this in like very few corners of the internet that's just like you don't want to go there. That's not a good place. That's that's wrong. Those women are doing something that is bad. you should not genuinely
04:29:47
Oliver N Housethink that like men because of their biology or their genetics or their Y chromosome are somehow like evil. That's not the sentiment that is largely being expressed in my view when women say I
04:29:58
Oliver N Househate men. And the reason is because it it it's never the behavior does not match the words which makes me which makes it an insincere form of hatred. You're not you don't actually hate these
04:30:11
Oliver N Housepeople. Would you give this same grace to men who said the same thing towards women? No. Because women act Wait a second. Because men Wait a second. Men know Because men actually take out their hatred on women by killing them. Well,
04:30:21
Oliver N Housewomen poison men all the time. Well, okay. I need more examples of like who do you think kills Do you think men kill more women or women kill more men? What do you think is a more systemic pervasive issue? Men kill more men though. Do they hate men? No. Using the
04:30:35
Oliver N Housesame logic because they're men. Yeah. Because they're Do men kill men because men? No. They kill women because they don't view women. What you're talking about is violence by proximity. You're saying it's not. It's violence that
04:30:46
Oliver N Houseoccurs because No, you're using You're using the reasoning that if men kill women, it's because they hate women. But when they kill men, it's just wait because they don't. In a lot of these cases, it's because they don't view women as full people or worthy of
04:30:59
Oliver N Houserespect. Yeah. I think about it all the time. The stalker case. A woman turns down a man's advances. He follows her home and he kills her. That's not an uncommon thing that unfortunately happens. So that is that's pretty uncommon. I mean, in the grand scheme of
04:31:13
Oliver N Housethings, yeah, it it does. I mean, in terms of in terms of like in terms of like intimate partner violence, three women per day are killed by men. Yeah. But partner the the domestic violence um
04:31:24
Oliver N Housefor lesbian couples is I don't I don't higher. So, do they hate women? Do are they killing are they are lesbians killing each other? They're not if they were cap if they were stronger, they would. I don't think that's true. I think if someone wants to kill someone, they they would be able to do I mean
04:31:36
Oliver N Housewomen women can't even successfully off themselves. Okay. Yeah, they do. They f they Yeah, they they attempt at similar rates. Men do more because they're use more useful methods. They're just better at it. I I think saying men are better
04:31:49
Oliver N Houseat killing themselves. And that's a good thing about men is crazy. But um No, I didn't say it's good. I said they're better at it. Doesn't make sense. It's not a good Well, and and if we're talking about why that's the case, I think the male suicide rate is a problem. And I think that we should and
04:32:03
Oliver N Housewe should encourage men to instead of like bottling up and never talking about their like feelings, you just have to man up. you have to get through it. Emotions are just a woman's thing and
04:32:12
Jim Bobyou should not I don't know about that. I actually wonder how many uh men ended up, you know, taking themselves out of the equation that um at the tail end of
04:32:25
Oliver N Houselooking too introspectively about all that. I don't think that's the case. I mean, there are specific studies that I found, and this was one that I found when I was preparing for the other debate that I did, and it was men that hold particular views, such as, you know, a lot of more traditional views
04:32:37
Oliver N Houselike you hold. you know, this idea of like depression isn't really a real thing or like it's like a weakness of the mind and you know that you know they just need to man up and grit and power through and that men have you know this role to be like super aggressive.
04:32:49
Oliver N HouseThey're more than two like two times as likely to kill themselves. That there's a study. I can actually provide you a study if you'd like un alive or unive. Oh, my bad. Sorry. Alive. Yeah. on alive themselves. Who hold those views? I
04:33:01
Brian Atlasmean, there's a study out there. So, I better understand. Can you further explain the whole like, okay, when women say uh I hate men, all men suck, whatever it is, you give them a bit of grace on that statement. But if a man
04:33:14
Oliver N Housesays, "I hate all women," or whatever it is. Why do women Why do women What teaches women to be afraid of men? Answer my question. Well, I But I think this is instructive. I think I'm I'm going to answer your question. So, what's your question? Well, my question
04:33:27
Brian Atlasis why do you think women are afraid of men or might express that as I hate men? Why? Maybe. Uh, sure. Either uh they've had a specific poor or bad incident with a particular man. They've heard from a
04:33:39
Brian Atlasfriend that this person has had a bad experience. they've they have a society and culture that uh pushes forth certain messaging when it comes to this. There's the perhaps you might even agree with
04:33:50
Brian Atlasthis uh the the news cycle basically has people on high alert all the time because they're just f hyperfocusing on these otherwise pretty rare occurrences
04:34:01
Brian Atlasand it's just a constant flow of like here's a terrorist attack here's sure you know whatever it is and and from talking with the women in my lives and you know what and like at least from
04:34:13
Oliver N Housewhat I've heard women I've listened to you know these types of experiences especially like you know unwanted sexual encounters or sexual assault or sexual harassment are scarily common. Like really common like it's like every I
04:34:25
Oliver N Housemean I I I'd encourage you guys, you know, to talk to the women in your life just like ask them, hey, have you had type of experience? And and it's like it's it's fairly common. So I think women's fear of men and sometimes their
04:34:36
Oliver N Housewhat what they express as hatred is a hatred with how they're being treated. And I realize they're not being perfect with language. And one could argue that instead of saying I hate men, they
04:34:48
Oliver N Houseshould say I hate the way some men treat me. And I totally understand that, you know, look, I I struggle with this a lot, too. I'm a man. When you say you you hate all men, I'm offended because I'm a member of that category. And I
04:35:00
Oliver N Housefeel that you're somehow imputing me for the actions of this shitty guy that I had nothing to do with. But I think what happens is when we do that, we're focusing on tone policing women more and
04:35:13
Oliver N Housemake we're making it about ourselves in a sense. We're making it we're saying like I hear what I instead of looking and listening to the message you're giving me, I'm going to immediately get on the defensive and make it about me. You know what I mean? So maybe actually
04:35:25
Oliver N HouseBrian, in an ideal world, you're right. Women in a perfect world or like in a way where like you know if if I were to advise a woman, what should she say? she should say, you know, I hate the way that some men treat me. But I think that
04:35:37
Oliver N Houseas men, we should use our big brain reasoning ability to say that, look, okay, women say they hate men, but and all those women who go to the women's marches that, you know, Jim Bob thinks are facades, um, and say that, you know,
04:35:50
Oliver N Housewe hate men, you know, blah blah blah, and then they go home to men in their lives, and then they go, you know, have men in their life that they love. They don't actually hate men. what they're doing is they're expressing a type of
04:36:02
Oliver N Housediscontent and albeit probably imperfect language in language that is less than optimal whatsoever at all. But I just I I think fixating on this idea that like
04:36:12
Oliver N Housethis is systemic hatred of men just like it's it's it's it's really bad. Can you can you repeat that? Yeah. What what specifically? I'm just kidding. I was just kidding. No. Uh you're going to
04:36:25
Brian Atlasmake a great lawyer. Yeah. I mean, but the thing is though is that I don't think I I I actually don't dispute that uh many women uh have had bad encounters with men. Yeah, I don't
04:36:37
Brian Atlasdispute this. Um I've had bad encounters with men. I've had bad encounters with women. I think though when you're going to make statements like this, uh one, I just it's blatantly sexist. But the
04:36:49
Brian Atlasother thing I would say is that like again if if we sort of shift things a little bit and we replace men with a racial group you'd be like whoa okay
04:36:58
Brian Atlasthat for example if a white person anecdotally they had multiple bad experiences with uh a racial minority who who in that racial minority what do
04:37:10
Oliver N Houseyou mean cuz I hear his talking I I hear his talking point a lot it's like oh black men are violent this type of thing. I'm not saying I'm not saying you're saying that. I'm saying that but It doesn't matter who it is. I think I think it can be. I think it can be, but the common denominator there would be a
04:37:22
Oliver N Houseman. So, if someone were hating like um like I guess like like oh yeah, I have a prejudice against African-Americans because like an African-American like man once caused this. It's it's the male component that's doing the work there
04:37:35
Brian Atlasbecause I don't think they would be afraid of like black women necessarily if they had a let's just say they just had a blanket uh they've had bad experiences with black men and black women and they have they they make
04:37:47
Oliver N Housecertain negative statements about I hate exracial and I think it's because throughout society that statement has never been understood to mean we have we
04:38:00
Oliver N Housedon't like the way I had this bad treatment or that there is a systemic problem of the way black people treat white people. That's that's not like there is there is a already like connotation. It's like I don't what's the right word? What's the way you put it? There the the statement I hate black
04:38:13
Oliver N Housepeople. I don't I don't really want to say that on the podcast. Clip it. Clip clip. There we go. There we go. I'm sure it'll be um that statement has already had a meaning ascribed to it. People already have a connotation. It's like a similar thing of like people who like
04:38:25
Oliver N Housetake the swastika canal and fly it and want to be like no it just means a symbol of peace in my religion. And it's like, well, no, that statement has already been so tainted by this previous meaning that it it can't mean something else because of how common it is. The
04:38:38
Oliver N Housephrase I hate men has never been accompanied by the systemic extermination of men. It's never been accompanied by the systemic subjugation of men. It's never been been accompanied
04:38:47
Oliver N Houseby any actual like tangible harm against men. You don't think there's any harm? I think there is harm in I think there is harm in the case that like maybe it's not the most effective thing because it
04:39:00
Brian Atlasdoes turn men off and I'm not like turn men away from the movement and I'm not trying to make a claim that like that's the way that women ought to do it. Do you think it would cause transgender people harm if they if somebody said uh
04:39:10
Oliver N Houselike I hate trans people or uh kill all tea people. Do you think that would cause harm? Yeah. But are tea people like offing like what I don't are tea people offing cis people? It's the other
04:39:23
Oliver N Houseway around. I don't see how but what do you what's the mean like what's the that's already a thing. It's like transphobia and like the hatred of like trans people is already a a prominent Yeah. We also have a word called sexism and that would also apply to men.
04:39:36
Jim BobSorry I'm the moderate actually. No no it's fine it's post no. Well, I think what what Brian was pointing to is like if you're if it's fine to uh extrapolate or generalize based on certain
04:39:48
Jim Bobexperiences and it's understandable. He's just taking another group and from those experience or say statistics or something that why would it be wrong to statistics statistics wouldn't back up
04:40:01
Oliver N Housewhite people being afraid of statistics wouldn't back up white people being afraid of black people because majority of violence is intraracial. So intraracial 90% of black people are killed. This is often killed by other black people. 85% of white people are
04:40:13
Brian Atlaskilled by other white people. Why would that preclude a white person being fearful or scared of a racial minority? What do you mean? Because they've had like a singular instance or a bad instance. Isn't it the case that like the comparative rate, so if you look at
04:40:26
Oliver N Houselike Asian on black versus black on Asian crime, there is there's disparity, but it's still drastically low. If if you're talking about who is an Asian mo like overwhelmingly more likely to be um like hurt by it, it is someone of their
04:40:39
Brian Atlasown race because people live almost entirely around domestic violence, but like stranger danger like on the street violence. Well, you who do you usually live around? You're not usually just randomly going into communities that you
04:40:50
Jim Bobdon't inhabit or like like white people live around and work primarily around white people. And so you're saying like if I go into a neighborhood where there's a high rate of black-on-black
04:41:01
Oliver N Housecrime that I should be more I shouldn't be worried about I think you should be worried but just cuz it has a high rate of crime like on a I mean I don't know I think that I think a lot of this stuff like I
04:41:13
Oliver N Housejust I don't I'm not denying that like I understand where the sentiment that you're expressing comes from Brian like I I get that like it's like like look we should oppose generalizations of any group on any basis because it's just you
04:41:25
Oliver N Houseknow it's wrong and I think there's a claim to be wait why is that wrong? I mean, you would say it's I wouldn't say making determinations, but generalizations. General generalization
04:41:35
Oliver N Housesaying all all blank or blank, but like Oh, blank. Oh, like Yeah. Except for you, all women should be in the home, but Well, I guess they could be. Okay. I
04:41:45
Brian Atlasguess uh just one question on the bear thing then. Yeah. Um you would say if somebody picks the bear over men, that would not be like sexist. No, you
04:41:56
Brian Atlasunderstand why a woman would pick I mean sure. My question is let's say if we kind of and would you say that comes down to safety? I mean factually. Yeah.
04:42:07
Brian AtlasRight. Women pick bear because they are afraid that the man might essay them and kill them or whatever it is. Whereas the bear might just kill them or not but they're not going to like essay them. Right? So it's like a safety assessment.
04:42:19
Brian AtlasIt comes down to safety. But so if somebody, for example, if the question changes and the question becomes, would you rather come across a random black person or a random bear in the woods and they pick bear over black person? Would
04:42:32
Oliver N Houseyou say they're a racist? Well, it would depend. Who are they afraid of in the woods? Who is committing? It wouldn't matter if it was a black woman or a black man, they'd still pick the bear. I think No, wait a second. I think it's weird though
04:42:45
Brian Atlasbecause like How's it weird? because black women aren't committing like massive rates of violence or crime. I'm not going to deny the majority of men aren't like it's a very small Sure. I would agree if we look at the
04:42:57
Oliver N Houseoverwhelming majority. Yeah. Right. But you're saying black women are uh immune to committing violent crime. Not immune. They're much less likely. I'll even grant it. But this person we would have to we would have to math it out. We have
04:43:10
Brian Atlasto mask it out. Well, who cares if that Well, I mean, wouldn't the math in the original example when it's a uh a woman preferring the bear over the man? I think the math even in that because you're only assume you're only including killing. You're only including being
04:43:22
Brian Atlaskilled. I would include essay in that. You think a bear is more likely to sex? No, that's No, no, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying at all. But here, but that's what women
04:43:31
Oliver N Houseare. Is it Would it be racist to pick the bear over the black person? Yes, I will. This is not a contradiction whatsoever at all. If it is, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. If
04:43:42
Oliver N Houseit was, would you rather pick a bear or like a black man? Yeah, pick pick the bear. That's fine because it's the man that's doing the operative work there. It's the man that's doing like I don't
04:43:53
Oliver N Houselike I don't I think black women largely should be more like afraid of like in terms of the male thing, black men and white women should be afraid of white men because that's the people who are most likely to harm them. But in this
04:44:05
Oliver N Houseblack scenario, it's not just it's not the the real like there's just no lived reality of like white people, a majority of white people like being victims of
04:44:16
Brian Atlaslike terrible awful crimes at the hands of black people or black women. I mean there's it would be lar it would be largely black men. I mean there's that guy at the track meet who just got stabbed but I mean we don't know the details of that and we talk about that.
04:44:28
Brian AtlasAre we talking about that? said, hold on. But you said there there's this group of people doesn't have the lived experience of being victims of Hold on. There's crime perpetuated by black people. Are you saying black people don't commit crimes? I'm not saying they don't commit crimes. I'm saying that
04:44:42
Oliver N Houseblack people committing crimes against white people is not a pervasive issue. It's not it's not pervasive. It just doesn't it's not a majority, an overwhelming majority. You can look at the statistics and I already said it was
04:44:54
Brian Atlasit's over it's intraracial. Even then, if you're going to say that if they pick the bear over the black person, that must be racist. Then surely black man. No, just do not. Well, the the question
04:45:05
Brian Atlasthat I posed was not black man. It was just black person. So, it could be a woman. It could be a man. Now, the is it is it racist? But then for you to say, well, it wouldn't be sexist to pick the
04:45:16
Jim Bobbear over the man. I just I not really following. Yeah. It's like he's just all he's doing is swapping out the choices. And if it's if it's sexist in one instance, but it's not but it's or let's
04:45:29
Oliver N Housesay it's racist but it's not sexist. He's saying like why is it racist? You should be consistent. I don't but I don't think there's an inconsistency here because it's not like and I see this a lot like why can't white people fear black people if men if women can
04:45:42
Oliver N Housefear men. And I I don't think that there's a I don't think that I don't think the parallel holds because the the demographic committing violence
04:45:50
Oliver N Houseregardless of race is men. So, if you're afraid of black men over white men, it's you're not you're not more likely as as a I don't if if you want to if let's say you oppose this as like a as like a
04:46:03
Oliver N Housewould you as to like a black woman like would you rather encounter a bear or like a black person in the woods. I mean, then maybe she would be like, "Yeah, I want the bear because it might be a black man." And because men within
04:46:12
Jim Boba society are more likely, regardless of race, to be Why can't Why can't you make a subcategory? Okay, we've established men, but then why can't we just make a subcategory to say like, okay, there's
04:46:24
Jim Bobgroups between a white man and a and a black man, who would you rather find be in the woods with? If you're if you're a white man, you would or if you're a if you're a white woman, it's more likely that you are to be it doesn't really m
04:46:36
Oliver N Houseit's just a man. It's just men in general are more likely to assault. It's not it's not only like a a racial demographic thing. It's just that then there's no basis for that. Like I don't there is a basis for women fearing men.
04:46:49
Oliver N HouseThat that makes sense. But it's not like like there's nothing about a black man that makes like like him more scary than a white man other than if you think black people are scary. And I don't know if this was what you were asking Jim
04:47:00
Brian AtlasBob, but what if the question shifts to this uh a white woman in the woods and she's given an option of spawning in. She either comes across a random white person or excuse me, a random white man
04:47:12
Brian Atlasversus a random black man and she picks the white man. Is that racist? No, I don't. You don't think it's racist? I don't I don't know. I don't But I thought Hold on. But didn't you just say that the rates of like interracial
04:47:24
Brian Atlasviolence are it's like within your same race, it's higher, right? It's it's going to happen if there's a man there. It's But you said because when I gave you the Asian example, you're like, "Well, okay. the rates of Asian on Asian
04:47:35
Oliver N Housecrime, sure, are higher. I I feel like we've extracted this hypothetical so far that it just doesn't track reality anymore. Like I just don't think it's I I don't I don't think it is, right? I don't think it is at all. Well, then we didn't even get into like per capita
04:47:47
Oliver N Houselike the percent of crime and convictions versus white and black. If there's not an argument there's not I'm not saying that like black people don't commit a disproportionate rate of crime. That's not the claim. I would make an argument that that largely stems from
04:47:59
Oliver N Housesocioeconomic factors and historical factors that have, you know, impoverished a community for, you know, generations upon generations and leads to a gang culture emerging that we've seen over and over and over again throughout history, even among white individuals when they came to this
04:48:12
Brian Atlascountry. So, I I don't know. I just I don't Well, I'll just I guess I can only reframe it one way. So, the woman who picks the bear over the man, the reason
04:48:23
Brian Atlasshe does this is she had uh let's say two to three poor experiences with uh and all the women around her have similar experiences too. Sure. and and she's also consuming content on Tik Tok
04:48:34
Brian Atlasin the algorithm and she's seeing news stories about the incident of violence against uh women and she goes to university and there's like a freshman orientation tutorial where they're like, "Okay, the grape rate is like half or
04:48:48
Brian Atlassomething or whatever whatever they perpetuate." And then you have a white per you have a white person who they're asked the bear or black person question
04:48:57
Oliver N Houseand they've had two or three negative uh encounters with black people maybe one of them will PTSD response fine like I don't you know fine that's fair I don't like I don't if that person in this in
04:49:10
Jim Bobthis hypothetical if they want to ch if they want to choose to not be around a black person also in your little the little story you said um you said there's this there's this narrative that needs to corrected over and over again where it's like there's this big story
04:49:23
Jim Bobabout poverty and then the poverty justifies the crime. It's actually the case that crime causes more poverty than poverty causes crime. Well, sure it's a cycle. I was disagreeing with you,
04:49:34
Jim Bobright? But the narrative is always they it's always said in this way where it's like, oh, they're in a they're in a terrible whoever it is, they're in a terrible position. They did what they did. It causes crime and then it's a
04:49:45
Jim Bobcycle of poverty. But it's there there are people who don't commit crime who are in poverty. There's also rich people who commit crime. So I'm not sure what the cycle is actually blamed on. I think
04:49:56
Jim Bobthere's a cultural aspect when we look at uh crime or even any degenerate behavior um itself that um there's even legal things that aren't crime that I
04:50:07
Jim Bobconsider degenerate. But um it's all plays into it. But I don't think that uh there's this like narrative where it's like certain groups of people it's not their fault that they're behaving the way they're doing. I'm not I'm not trying to remove individual
04:50:20
Oliver N Houseresponsibility here. I'm you know absolutely I don't like I think that it is also true that majority of people who are subjected to bad conditions don't perpetuate those bad conditions. So that is true. However, it is true that
04:50:31
Oliver N Housestatistically they are more likely to um in general. So that's kind of the old the only claim claim that I'm trying to make. Sure. I'm going to let these chats come through, then we're going to wrap this up. Jason, thank you for the time.
04:50:42
SPEAKER_00Jason Castle donated $20. Oliver, it's called busting balls. It's what men do, so I know you don't understand. Trying to help you, bug. Don't worry. I'm on
04:50:54
SPEAKER_00the developmental pathway to produce small gametes. So, Wild donated $20. Jim Bob, cool it with anti-gay lawyer remarks. What the heck? Thank you,
04:51:05
Brian AtlasIntel. All right, we have about six more coming through. Thank you. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Donated $20. I will say
04:51:15
SPEAKER_00the quiet part out loud. Bear versus man debate is a passive aggressive way of us reminding men that we hate you.
04:51:24
SPEAKER_00Of us reminding Wait. Oh, wow. Okay. All right. Prilla donated $20. Oh, Fruity Boy, you disgust me. All of your followers disgusts me. You are a Miss
04:51:36
SPEAKER_00Andreth Luth coochie woman. I hope you understand that. Thank you. Billy Bob roast this [ __ ] Glad you thought that was worth $20. Jason Castle donated $20. Thank you,
04:51:48
SPEAKER_00Jason. Well, Oliver, listening to you during this debate will increase the UN rate of men tonight. We to go bunnies. I'm surprised you think I'm that powerful that I can convince men to I'm
04:51:59
SPEAKER_00surprised you think I'm that powerful that I animal donated $20. Thank you. The white knight is the one infantilizing women. Do women hate children and the elderly as they are
04:52:09
SPEAKER_00alive them incredible rates. Even as parenting time has decreased, rates have increased. Okay. Jason Castle donated $20. Oliver,
04:52:21
SPEAKER_00you're a scumbag. Brian meant any minority group, but you tried to but words in his mouth by asking if he means black people. He didn't say black
04:52:30
SPEAKER_00people. He meant any minority group scumbag. Okay. Wow. Okay. Selena Gornz donated $2345. So should men not fear women when
04:52:42
SPEAKER_00they say hate all men even though the legal system has clearly been weaponized against men for at least 50 years. I mean believe all women, right? Yeah. I
04:52:53
SPEAKER_00feel really oppressed. Eric Vigilant donated $19.99. Thank you. Oliver never had the markings of a varsity trumpeter. This is a uh I guess the jeans didn't guess the jeans
04:53:04
SPEAKER_00didn't pass down for my Sopranos's reference. Thank you. Uh Eric Steven donated $19.99. This bear in the woods hypothetical is annoying and just shows
04:53:16
Brian Atlashow stupid Americans have become. We love to make problems. A bear is never the one to pick. Thank you, Stephen. Uh who just quick answer. Do you you pick man or bear for you? from here. You're