1v1 DEBATE: Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #14
Date: 2025-05-04
Duration: 4h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_03Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Oliver Ni House. Topic: Is feminism good for society?
00:08:54
Key MomentJim Bob's force doctrine: feminism is performative contradiction. Women can't grant themselves rights.
00:12:23
Key MomentJim Bob: women's only leverage is chastity and childbearing — feminism inverted this power against them
03:16:00
Key MomentJim Bob pivots on bear question: agrees men are dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them
04:14:08
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism is a lie that inverts what's beautiful about women
04:18:05
Key MomentOliver closing: humans can transcend biological impulses through reason. Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Topics Discussed
00:01:49
Opening Statements
Oliver: feminism = equal opportunity not equal outcome; cites Norway/Sweden GDP, Princeton mixed-gender study. Jim Bob: force doctrine, feminism is performative contradiction affirming patriarchy it opposes.
00:17:17
Force Doctrine Debate
Can power equal legitimacy? Oliver: potential force ≠ actual authority. Jim Bob: inductive reasoning (sun rising). Abortion rights as paradox of women asking men to defend right to terminate.
01:38:00
Women's Obligations
Jim Bob: women bear no obligations in feminist framework. Oliver: pay taxes, follow laws, exist as citizens. Jim Bob: asymmetrical and untenable.
01:42:00
Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Oliver: kidney analogy for bodily autonomy. Jim Bob: abortion destroys the very leverage (childbearing) that gives women power.
03:16:00
Man vs Bear
Jim Bob pivots: agrees men ARE dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them from bad. Brian draws racial variant.
04:14:08
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism requires patriarchy, no obligations. Oliver: humans have capacity for reason to transcend biological impulses; Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Transcript
Page 1 of 6
00:00:13
Brian AtlasWelcome to a special debate edition of the Whatever Podcast. We're coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. A few quick announcements before the show begins. This podcast is viewer
00:00:25
Brian Atlassupported heavy YouTube demonetization. So please consider consider donating through Streamlabs instead of super chatting as YouTube takes a brutal 30% cut. That's streamlabs.com/ whatever.
00:00:38
Brian AtlasLink for that's in the description. We do prioritize messages that are made via Streamlabs to read a message as TTS. It's going to be uh $99 and up and we will pull those up in batches at various
00:00:49
Brian Atlasbreaks throughout the debate. We're also live on Twitch right now. You can pull up another tab. Go to twitch.tv/w whatever. Drop us a follow in the prime sub if you have one. Without further ado, I'm going to
00:01:01
Brian Atlasintroduce our two debaters. I'm joined today by Jim Bob. He is a political commentator and a political cartoonist for the Washington Examiner. Also joining us today is Oliver Ni House. He
00:01:14
Brian Atlasis about to graduate from Oberlin College. He is triple majoring in political science, philosophy, and legal studies. He plans to attend law school after graduation. He's also a political
00:01:25
Brian Atlascommentator and content creator. The debate topic for today is is feminism good for society. Each of the debaters will have a five-minute opening
00:01:36
Brian Atlasstatement and then the rest of the show will be open conversation and there will be some breaks for messages from the audience. Uh Oliver, you get the opening statement. So go ahead. Awesome. Well, thank you very much, Brian, for having
00:01:49
Oliver N Houseme on the show and thank you Jim Bob for uh being here and agreeing to have this debate and I look forward to having a productive exchange of ideas. Um, so the resolution we're debating, as Brian uh mentioned, was um is feminism good for society? And I'll be arguing in the
00:02:00
Oliver N Houseaffirmative that yes, feminism has been good for society and will continue to be good for society. Before we dive in, I think it's important to clarify how we're defining feminism or how I'm defining feminism in this debate since definitions matter in any productive
00:02:13
Oliver N Houseconversation to ensure we're not talking past one another. Uh, the version of feminism I'll be defending is the belief that individuals should have the same rights, opportunities, and basic respect. Um, and should be given equal opportunities to succeed and not be
00:02:26
Oliver N Houseprevented from doing so on the basis of their sex or gender. Now, notice what this definition does not say. It doesn't claim that there must be equal outcomes in every field. One common straw man of
00:02:36
Oliver N Housefeminism is that feminism demands strict 50/50 representation in every field. plumbers, electricians, brick layers, garbage collectors, doctors, members of Congress, and so on. That's not what I'm
00:02:47
Oliver N Housearguing for, and that's not really what any feminist is really arguing for. Feminism doesn't seek to erase all difference and disparities. But what it does seek to do is remove the unjust barriers that often prevent women from
00:02:59
Oliver N Houseentering or advancing in certain fields due to bias, discrimination, or certain expectations of what a man or woman's proper role is. Another term worth defining because I think it's going to come up a decent amount, is patriarchy. Patriarchy is typically understood as a
00:03:11
Oliver N Housesystem that advantages men over women, granting them primary power across nearly all domains of society. So, political leadership, moral authority, even epistemic authority, the idea that a man's knowledge or judgment should be
00:03:23
Oliver N Houseinherently trusted more and control over things like property and wealth. As with feminism, there are many straw man arguments surrounding patriarchy. So, let me address a common one. Some argue that if men are suffering, whether it's because they dominate in dangerous jobs
00:03:36
Oliver N Houseor are more likely to be victims of violent crime or of higher suicide rates, just to name a few examples, then patriarchy must not exist. But this misunderstands what patriarchy means. The existence of male suffering does not
00:03:47
Oliver N Housedisprove patriarchy because patriarchy refers to who holds power, not who experiences hardship. While men are absolutely harmed by many aspects of the patriarchal system, the people in positions of authority and control over
00:03:59
Oliver N Houseremain overwhelmingly male. So yes, patriarchy can and does harm men as well, but it systematically privileges men in ways that it does not for women. I have several concrete examples of how our society functions in a patriotic way
00:04:11
Oliver N Houseor patriotic patriarchal way, and I'm happy to share those if needed. But from what I understand of Jim Bob's previously articulated positions, although maybe that's not what we're operating under, he doesn't deny that patriarchy exists. In fact, he appears to embrace it as a good and natural
00:04:24
Oliver N Housething. So at least for the purpose of this debate, it seems unnecessary to spend time proving that patriarchy exists. So we can instead move on to a more substantive question which is rather should it exist. Um so and this is going to be the claim of this debate
00:04:37
Oliver N HouseI think largely is whether patriarchy should exist in some capacity. Um, something I've seen Jim Bob do in previous debates is embrace what I view to be another straw man of patriarchy in which it defines, he defines it narrowly
00:04:49
Oliver N Houseas the idea that men serve as the enforcement arm of society. That only men can uphold law and order and because they are on average physically better equipped for physical enforcement, they must have this authority. But this view
00:05:01
Oliver N Houseis not only reductive, it's historically and sociologically incoherent. Patriarchy is not simply who can win in a fist fight. It's about who writes the laws, sets the norms, controls the institutions, and decides whose voices
00:05:13
Oliver N Houseare taken seriously. Reducing patriarchy to brute strength is like explaining corporate power by saying CEOs have authority over their companies because they can beat up the interns. In
00:05:23
Oliver N Housereality, power is much more upheld by um it's upheld by much more than muscle. It's reinforced through tr through tradition, ideology, religion, economic control, and legal structures. The force
00:05:36
Oliver N Housedoctrine idea here strips patriarchy of its complexity and reimagines it as this caveman logic of might makes right which is not only inaccurate but pretty intellectually lazy. The major point I want to make in my opening is this.
00:05:49
Oliver N HouseYou're going to hear a lot of claims made from Jim Bob about how feminism has supposedly led to a wide array of disastrous outcomes. Declining birth rates, labor market saturation and wage wage stagnation, rising divorce rates
00:06:02
Oliver N Houseinitiated by women, and much more. For every claim he makes, I urge you to ask, has he actually demonstrated that feminism caused these outcomes, or have they merely occurred alongside the rise of feminism? Because one of the most
00:06:15
Oliver N Housecommon fallacies I see from anti-feminists is treating correlation as causation. Yes, feminism has grown, so is the gap between the rich and poor. Yes, feminism has grown, and the birth rate has declined. But that's not evidence of causation. To those who
00:06:28
Oliver N Houseaccept that line of reasoning, I'll remind you that there's a strong correlation between per capita margarine consumption and the divorce rate in Maine or between the number of Nicholas Cage films released in a given year and the number of accidental drownings in
00:06:40
Oliver N Houseswimming pools. My point is this, the burden is on Jim Bob to prove that feminism caused these trends, not merely that they happened alongside one another. And I will argue against this that these societal shifts are are a
00:06:51
Oliver N Houseresult of broader economic, cultural, and technological forces that are caused by a combination of many other factors. But feminism is not one of them. I won't just refute Jim Bob's claims that feminism has has been an overall
00:07:04
Oliver N Housenegative for society. I will also affirmatively make the case that feminism has been a force for tremendous good. higher GDP in countries that have greater labor force population driven in large part by expanded opportunities for women which can be directly linked to
00:07:16
Oliver N Housemore people using their talents to contribute to the economy and society. Countries like Norway, Sweden, and Finland, which have fostered more egalitarian systems and removed many barriers women face in both work and public life, consistently show higher
00:07:29
Oliver N Houselevels of prosperity and innovation. And we see similar gains in productivity output. Numerous studies have shown that gender diverse teams perform better. A Princeton University study examining over 6 million research papers found
00:07:41
Oliver N Houseteams that composed of both men and women produced more novel and influential work. Specifically, mixedgender teams were nearly 10% more likely to publish novel research and over 30% more likely to be highly cited
00:07:54
Oliver N Housecompared to single gender teams. And that's not just this, you know, feel-good rhetoric about diversity. It's measurable concrete benefits of greater gender inclusion in the sciences and society at large. I'll wrap it up here as I'm sure we'll explore many of these
00:08:07
Oliver N Housespecifics further as the debate progresses. But I will, as I will continue to demonstrate, the case is abundantly clear. Feminism has has had a profoundly positive impact on society, and we must push back firmly and
00:08:19
Jim Bobunapologetically against those who seek to drag us backwards. Thank you. All right, Jim Bob, all right, go with your open. Thank you so much. All right, the debate is, is
00:08:30
Jim Bobfeminism good for society? Uh Oliver uh defined feminism as individuals having the same rights, equal opportunities in the world. Uh so on and so forth. Um I
00:08:42
Jim Bobwould argue that society, we have to define society real quick. Society is an aggregate of people living in an ordered uh system, an ordered community. I want to focus on that word ordered for a
00:08:53
Jim Bobsecond because without any order uh without any force, without any threat of force, you really don't have a society. So when when Oliver says equal rights, equal this, equal that, well, it's
00:09:05
Jim Bobdescriptively the case that it's not equal because women uh regardless of how much they want inequality, it's always enforced by men, which is an inequality.
00:09:15
Jim BobSo there's an irony there that feminism uh fights for equality, but relies on inequality. Um so looking at some key components of what makes a society uh if you argue a society is good because of
00:09:27
Jim Bobthis reason it needs these components. Law and order is one of the components which I can't stress enough. Um without it you have nothing. Uh if you don't if if he assumes rights that assumes law.
00:09:39
Jim BobIf you assume law that assumes force. So when Oliver says he reduces it to force everything Oliver listed in his opening whether or not you thought it sounded
00:09:49
Jim Bobgood. The only thing that's operating ultimately is force. If men decide not to give those things to women, they can do that. If men decide to give those things to women, they can do that. Uh
00:10:01
Jim Bobessentially, feminism is a set of grievances and requests. A lot like a child in the room asking for more toys and then arguing for equality and calling uh the moment where the dad
00:10:12
Jim Bobgives them the toys, they call that equality. It's pretty much like a a LAR. um obligations and duties is a key one. Oliver even uh in his uh counter to my reduction of the force doctrine. He
00:10:25
Jim Bobincluded something called traditions, right? Well, uh obligations and duties is not something that feminism can provide at all. Um feminism just has this major assumption of equality that
00:10:36
Jim Bobis in fact an outcome. Um so there is no equality of opportunity even among men. So why would there be equality of opportunity among men and women? obligations and duties is a key feature
00:10:47
Jim Bobbecause the vision that Oliver has and many feminists have for society. They have a vision that the world's a certain way where women and men are doing all of these things together. But the reality
00:10:59
Jim Bobis the operation of the world, the society itself, including the hardest manual labor jobs which he listed, uh building bridges, tunnels, uh managing the sewer system. Suddenly the feminist
00:11:11
Jim Bobassumes that the men have a an obligation to keep these things going. Let's say the men decided to stop all of that work for a second. They actually do it during strikes. That's leverage,
00:11:21
Jim Bobright? So the men actually descriptively do have the power. I am not one of those oppositional uh uh people to feminism arguing that the patriarchy doesn't exist. The patriarchy does exist because
00:11:33
Jim Bobit's descript. It's descriptive of reality. It can't not exist. Uh in other words, for feminism to do what it wants to do, it actually appeals to the patriarchy. It doesn't negate it. So for
00:11:45
Jim Bobinstance, if feminism is a movement away from men in power, let's say power is this. This is men and women are here. The idea is that we lower the men's
00:11:56
Jim Bobpower or we elevate the women's power. The problem is it's a request. It's a request. So if feminism is a movement away from the men in power and women's rights, let's say, is a feminist
00:12:08
Jim Bobmovement, why is it the case that women don't give themselves the rights? It's men who give them the rights. So if everything they're asking for under this feminist movement is a request from the
00:12:20
Jim Bobpower, they're actually affirming the patriarchy. Um, so that that's a good question for Oliver to ask uh answer during the back and forth. Why don't women just give themselves the rights? Why don't they just give it to
00:12:32
Jim Bobthemselves? Well, because they can't. Because collectively women can't uh take rights and they can't protect their own rights. But yet in the same breath, they're they're demanding these rights, but they have no obligation. That's not
00:12:44
Jim Bobequality. So, if feminism is about equality, um I'm pointing out one very uh important aspect of society where equality can't possibly exist, nor would I want it to exist. I would I want the
00:12:56
Jim Bobmen in power. And if you press uh especially women, you'll see on this podcast a lot of times when you press them on this issue, they actually concede that they'd rather have men in these power positions keeping society
00:13:07
Jim Bobgoing. Uh I want to go back to leverage for a second. Um what does the woman have for leverage? For instance, let's look at voting for a second. So when men
00:13:18
Jim Bobcollectively vote, they're basically saying something. They're saying, "I'm not going to group up with other men and overthrow the government." They're
00:13:27
Jim Bobbasically communicating, I'm forfeiting my will to gather other like-minded men, get our guns, and throw a rebellion. In exchange, I'm going to vote. Well, when a woman votes, what are they leveraging?
00:13:40
Jim BobWhat are they exchanging? There's nothing on the table for them to exchange. I would argue the the only leverage women actually have in a society is their chastity, is their
00:13:51
Jim Bobability to have children, which is an extreme value. I would argue it's one of the most valuable things women could uh appeal to in their in their political exchanges. Uh which leads me to the
00:14:03
Jim Bobthird part, people. You need people for a society. Yes. Uh reducing birth rates is a a very uh important topic. Whether you blame it on feminism or anything else, it's right in front of us. So the
00:14:15
Jim Bobquestion I would have if feminism was good for society, how is it that feminism doesn't advocate for children, for women to be mothers, for for women to be in the home raising the next
00:14:26
Jim Bobgeneration of children? After all, a society is made of people. And what good is a good society if it doesn't have good people? So the question tonight um
00:14:36
Jim Bobis for for Oliver to confront these fundamental issues, the core issues. And I would argue that there's uh feminism is essentially in in a kind of a performative contradiction. It says in
00:14:47
Jim Bobone hand that they want equality, right? But they have no obligations. They say they say in the same sentence that they want rights, but they have no obligation or ability to even defend their rights.
00:14:59
Jim BobSo to claim you want these things and this is fair, you're already smuggling in that there there is a group of men who have to or should be obligated to protect you, defend you. So, I'd ask
00:15:11
Jim BobOliver uh and it'll come up tonight. Do men have an obligation to protect women? Do men have an obligation to enforce law? Do men have an obligation to fight
00:15:22
Jim Bobeven in wars to defend so-called rights? Well, the same obligation can't be made for women because they're collectively incapable, which is why you'll never see in the history of humanity a time where
00:15:34
Jim Bobwomen gave themselves the rights. if they could have given themselves the rights, they wouldn't be asking the patriarchy to do it. Um, so yes, I affirm the patriarchy of course, but the question isn't whether a patriarchy is
00:15:45
Jim Bobgood for society because societies can't exist without the patriarchy. It's a necessary argument. Whereas uh Oliver is tasked tonight to tell us, me and you and Brian and everyone watching, why is
00:15:57
Jim Bobfeminism good for society? I would say it's overall not good for society for a variety of reasons. One of which is the messaging for feminism has largely been
00:16:09
Jim Bobuh sexual liberation for women. Women acting more like shitty men. Honestly, like that that's liberating um promiscuity. Um that that's some sort of liberation policy for for feminism.
00:16:21
Jim BobThey're right about one thing though. Their leverage is sex. Their leverage is birth. The the ability to give birth and be be a mother. The the problem with
00:16:31
Jim Bobfeminism is that it's inverted the power that women have, their sexuality, their womb. It's inverted it and used convinced them to use that uh advantage
00:16:42
Jim Bobagainst themselves. And we're looking at it. You know, women are more in debt. Was it a good thing to shove all the women to the workforce? You think you're empowered until you're 40 and and you have three cats and wine stained teeth
00:16:54
Jim Boband you have no husband or children or legacy and then you're you're dying to be invited to a wedding so you can talk to some groomsmen. This is not empowering. We have to reverse this. We
00:17:04
Jim Bobhave to reverse it soon. It's not just a an issue of uh societal collapse, but it's a it's a it's an issue of morality as well, which I hope we get into. Of course. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well,
00:17:17
Oliver N Houseopen conversation now. Yeah, just open conversation. So I'll just go ahead. Absolutely. I'd love to kind of get into this idea of the force doctrine. Kind of I want to like just kind of make sure we have a mutual understanding there. So is your view that um that the force
00:17:30
Oliver N Housedoctrine is the idea that the patriarchy itself is inevitable because because men possess greater physical strength generally than women that they can at any time impose their will upon women. Yes. They can impose their will on women
00:17:43
Oliver N Houseand men. Sure. Okay. Okay. So, I'm I guess I'm wondering even if we grant you know this idea that men are stronger than women generally, um does like potential equate to actual like do you think that that is kind of a general
00:17:54
Jim Boblike idea that we can operate off of? Like what could be the case is what should define how things are right now? Well, I would use more of like induction. It's always been the case and it seems to be always the case similar
00:18:06
Jim Bobto the sun rising. Okay. um that men overall are going to be the ones enforcing and defending um offending defending and there's never been a case
00:18:17
Jim Bobwhere women actually grant themselves the so-called rights that they're asking for or take those rights. So it goes both ways. Men can activate their force, take things from people. Men could
00:18:29
Jim Bobactivate their force and defend that people have things too. Now feminism is the latter. So the question is, can women collectively overtake the patriarchy? I mean, I think they
00:18:41
Oliver N Housetechnically could. I mean, so I think when we're talking about what could happen, we're talking about hypothetical things. So the entirety of men, I don't think will ever agree on like enslaving women, just like every single person.
00:18:55
Oliver N HouseThere's always going to be some men that oppose them. Of course, there's going to be, you know, maybe those men might win out in certain scenarios, but there's always going to be some men that are against them. So, we're never going to have a situation where all men are trying to enslave women. So, when I'm thinking about this, and I thought about
00:19:07
Oliver N Housethis hypothetical, and I think it was brought up on a previous podcast episode, women could hypothetically, um, as you talked about, leverage the fact that they give birth and either kill themselves or kill their male offspring. And if they did that, and if they
00:19:20
Jim Bobcollectively did that, then they would have that power, right? They leverage that. Well, if if they can do that, men could hypothetically counter that by using force to stop that from happening, right? I'm not sure. I you know I I I
00:19:32
Oliver N Housethink that if people want to end end a pregnancy, if people want to end their own lives, they are very determined to do that and I would be I don't I don't think but if it came down to force, right? Oh, if it came down to force,
00:19:44
Jim Bobsorry. Yes. If it came down to force, the woman would have a tougher the collection of women who you convince to uh you know work against their own existence and their children's existence, which is pretty close to
00:19:54
Jim Bobfeminism already. Um men could actually step in, right, and and and reverse that. For instance, uh you know, abortion is a perfect example of it. Women are fighting for the right to
00:20:07
Jim Bobterminate their own children, right? Legally, safely. Is that a good thing? I mean, not in my view. Yeah. I'm pro-choice. That's a good thing. So, it's already a good thing. So, your hypothetical was, well, there could be a moment where women start terminating their own children. I'm saying they're
00:20:20
Jim Bobalready doing that in the millions. Wait, no, no. They they do they do that legally. But what happens when abortion is illegal? What's legal though? No, no, no. But that that that goes to my point, Oliver. What does what does legal assume
00:20:31
Jim Bobthough? Well, that it is permitted by society and permitted. And if it wasn't permitted, women would do it anyway. So, hold on a second. No, no, that's not that's not the point. The point is when you say legal, yeah, you're appealing to
00:20:43
Jim Bobforce doctrine. I'm not I'm not denying that there is some role of enforcement in society. Nothing anything legal assumes the patriarchy. So that's the this is what I'm this is what in my opening statement Oliver I want you to
00:20:55
Jim Bobget is anything you think is good for women as a permission of behavior is going to be permitted and allowed by a collection of men with guns. Sure. So my question would be because you're
00:21:07
Oliver N Housedefining patriarchy as the that is the fact that men will always need to enforce things that men always need to I think that is a poor definition of patriarchy because what else would it be though? Okay. Well I I kind of gave a a
00:21:20
Oliver N Housea definition at the beginning here. this idea that it is a general um general idea that men hold more societal institutional power, things of that nature. They they write the laws, they
00:21:32
Oliver N Housecreate the norms and the systems that goes beyond just mere brute force. It really is because think think about this. Why don't the workers of a company just on a whim all the time overthrow
00:21:44
Oliver N Housethe CEO? Because it's illegal because of men. Well, sure. But they could if every single or do you think there are more people technically of the working class that if they got together they could
00:21:54
Jim Boboverthrow the CEO if there was no uh legality to it? Like when you say CEO and company hold on hold on when you say CEO and company you're already assuming law again. So you're using these terms I
00:22:06
Jim Bobknow but Oliver you're using terms and distinctions that are that necessitate that law already exists, right? That the force application already exists. I'm arguing from your from your perspective,
00:22:17
Jim Bobit's better for you to say the patriarchy is good for feminism. Why? Because whatever you call feminism requires the patriarchy. So this would be an argument that's equivalent to
00:22:28
Jim Bobsaying like having a like militaristic authoritarian government is good for democracy. Well, that's that's a good thing. Well, no. Democracy democracy is democracy
00:22:40
Oliver N Houseitself actually could produce authoritative governments. Well, no, no, it can. I'm correct. But would you say that because it is technically possible for the military to overtake the democratic government that democracy
00:22:52
Jim Bobitself doesn't exist? No, I'm saying democracy itself requires the force. Sure, but the will people voting doesn't actually matter. It's here. I'll ask it a different way. Can you give me a
00:23:04
Jim Bobhypothetical of where a kind of feminism could exist in the vision you have, but doesn't require the collective of men using force to protect it? Um I think there could be examples where women have
00:23:16
Oliver N Housesuperior technology where the ones that they're able to you know if if they have a majority of the weapons we can imagine this builds weapons I mean mostly why does it matter who necessarily I just hold on it matters Oliver because I
00:23:29
Jim Bobasked you can you give me a hypothetical where women could express their feminism and exist in a feminist society or whatever you are envisioning without the the men the men are building these
00:23:40
Jim Bobweapons because the men have always built the weapons No, because No, no, it's not because you're appealing to the past to justify what's happening there. Do you own a weapon? What? Do you own a weapon? Like a firearm? Okay. Yeah. No,
00:23:51
Jim BobI don't have a firearm. Okay. So, larger weaponry, even a firearm. Uh the majority of a a large portion of women can't even [ __ ] a gun. They can't clean a gun. They can't hold on. They can't
00:24:03
Jim Bobbreak Hold on. They can't break down a gun. Okay. And they can't carry larger equipment. So if you're arguing that the great equalizer is military equipment from small to large, that takes brute
00:24:14
Jim Bobstrength not only to make but to ma uh maintain and to transport. And you're basically granting yourself that you're just saying like look, Santa came. It wasn't the men who actually engineered
00:24:26
Jim Boband and moved these large things around for us to use, right? Uh remote control bombing and whatnot, all these missile silos and whatnot. This requires massive amount of brute strength, right? You're
00:24:37
Jim Bobjust granting yourself the fruits of the brute strength in the hypothetical and saying, "Well, it could be the case that women could just find a pile of missiles in the woods and then it's the great
00:24:47
Jim Bobequalizer." That's not the argument. I'm saying without men, how what does a woman What does a collection of women do to sustain their What does a collection of weaker men do without stronger men?
00:25:00
Oliver N HouseNo, that's I'm arguing for the stronger men. Okay. So then your argument is basically that whoever is the strongest man out there who whoever has the most brute power right there, they are the
00:25:11
Oliver N Houseones who dictate society. Dictate society. So you are grateful then to men who are stronger than you. You are grateful to men that are stronger than you for enforcing it. So why should you
00:25:23
Jim Bobnecessarily have rights? I don't believe in rights. Okay. I mean so why then why should your to vote be protect? Why should I don't believe in vote? I don't think I don't think I should vote necessarily, but certainly not women because if you remember in my opener,
00:25:36
Jim Bobwould you agree that when a collective of uh very strong men, stronger than me and you, right, the big the big burly ones with the crosseyed, right? If they don't vote, would you agree that the alternative to voting
00:25:48
Jim Bobwould be just rebellion or brute force if they didn't agree with the government, the government? I mean, I think it still is. They can vote and they can still use brute force. Voting is kind of I'm saying that when I'm I'm not saying they could vote. I'm not
00:26:00
Jim Bobsaying they can't vote and then suddenly be like, you know what, I know I voted, but I'm going to still do this. I'm saying generally speaking, the act of voting for men collectively, aren't they saying I'm not going to rebel? I don't
00:26:13
Oliver N Housethink they're necessarily saying they're not going to rebel. They're saying that I would prefer not to. I think I think I can get what I want by not using Fair enough. I'll grant you that. It's just that if they prefer not to, I'm saying
00:26:24
Jim Bobthat the alternative is that they could, right? Sure. Okay. women. If you switch it over to women, if women, they all start voting, right? Mhm. What are they forfeiting? What do you mean? What are
00:26:36
Jim Bobthey forfeiting? If the man is forfeiting, I don't think he is. He is. He He's basically saying, "I'm going to vote and I'm going to hope that the outsourced uh force application uh which is the military and the justice system
00:26:49
Jim Boband everything else included, right? They're outsourcing their brute force. Now, if they disagree and they decide voting isn't for you anymore and you're going to start a rebellion, they could do that. What I'm asking you, Oliver, is
00:27:01
Oliver N Housecan women do that? I don't necessarily think that I don't like most women can, but I don't think most men can either. I don't think most men can. What you're what you're doing is you're ascribing the quality of brute force to all men
00:27:14
Jim Bobbecause they're a member of the category. No, it's um I am actually appealing to categories. I'm saying when it comes to categories, right, it's like saying this, like are you in a category
00:27:24
Jim Bobof of beings that can think and do logic? Yeah. Can all human beings do logic? Not necessarily. No. But I'm appeal I'm appealing to to to the ones that can are in a certain category. What
00:27:36
Jim BobI'm saying is that category, Oliver, is men. No. No. Not necessarily. It's never a collection of women. No. No. It could be young men. Why should old men get rights? Because young men are the ones that are defending them. No. No. It's not. It's not that. Who gets rights? I
00:27:49
Jim BobYou're You're making an argument. You're the one affirming rights. I'm not. Right. Your whole view on feminism. My counter to feminism isn't about rights. I don't even believe in rights. Okay.
00:27:59
Jim BobYour view is that women have rights. That's good. I'm asking you, well, why isn't why isn't it the case, you think, Oliver, that women gave themselves the right to vote? Why did they appeal to
00:28:10
Oliver N Houseanother body of people to get the right to vote? Because they're the ones who controlled society. Like I don't really know what but I don't you're basically making a ma like a massive just is ought distinction is the case. Therefore I
00:28:23
Jim Bobdidn't say ought. I didn't say ought. Then I can agree with your entire descriptive claim and say yeah then that's how we should. Yeah. But if it's descriptively true that the ones you're going to be appealing to from the
00:28:35
Jim Bobwoman's perspective is always a collection of strong men. Then your argument that uh that you're making the norormative statement that we ought to pursue feminism that it's good for society. What I'm saying is that
00:28:47
Oliver N Houseanything you call feminism actually affirms the patriarchy. No, because you're defining patriarchy in terms of the enforcement arm that could be it's not because it's not because patriarchy, as I talked about before, is a is is a
00:29:00
Oliver N Housebunch of different things together. Okay, I'm happy to go up one at a time. Okay, I'm happy to do that. Um, it's it's it's typically understood as a system that advantages men over women, granting them primary access across all
00:29:11
Jim Bobdomains. Stop there one at a time. Okay. Is brute strength an advantage over women? It not necessarily. It can be, but it not always is the case. Okay. Is
00:29:22
Jim Bobit a advantage over women? It can be, but not all men are stronger than all women. I understand. But generally speaking, if there's a collection of men and a collection of women and there's the same amount of each, it's going to
00:29:35
Oliver N Housebe the case that the collection of men, even if they're weak men, are going to be stronger than the women. Right. True. However, No, no, but you're next on the list. No, no, but you're This is important. You're assuming that all the men will necessarily agree to impose
00:29:47
Jim Bobtheir will. I'm not talking about what they're agreeing. I'm saying they could, not whe whether they agree. Women could kill their children. It doesn't matter. That's not That's Then you don't have a society. Okay, cool. So everyone could pursue their own self-interest. Society
00:30:00
Jim Bobwould implode. And where are we? That's we're at liberalism. That's what feminism is. Pursuing your own self-interest and your wants. That's what you trained women to do under feminism. Pursue your individualism. There's no greater obligation for women.
00:30:13
Jim BobLike for instance, under feminism, is there any obligation to have children? Uh no. There's no obligation for men to have children either. Having children is not an obligation. It depends on the worldview. But generally, just being a
00:30:24
Jim Bobman, yes, you're not obligated. This is why the ought, which is your affirmative tonight, does require a metaethical position. Right. Okay. That's what I'm getting to. So, under your view, if it's the case that feminism doesn't have an
00:30:36
Jim Bobought to have children, yes. Is it a society better? Let's say there was a society without feminism, but it had the it it didn't affirm your idea of feminism, but it produced an ought statement of obligation to have
00:30:49
Oliver N Housechildren. Is that society better than the feminist one? No. Well, if it survives, is it better? Not necessarily. I don't think a society surviving in which women have zero rights and or
00:31:00
Jim Bobzero, you know, are not well off. What's a right? What can you define a right? Um, an entitlement. Entitlement. So, are there any um if an entitlement is that given to someone? A large sense? Yeah.
00:31:13
Oliver N HouseMen and women, it's given to them. Who gives women entitlements? Society. Well, that's pretty vague. Well, it is society. We as a society decide on which hold on let's give it
00:31:23
Jim Boblet's look at the let's look at the 19th amendment for a second okay when women started screaming some of them the minority by the way were started screaming for the the right to vote
00:31:34
Jim Bobright who were they screaming to to give them the right to vote people in who were in power were men but you you're just making a statement that that was the case I'm asking you why do they appeal to the men in power and not just
00:31:46
Jim Bobgive themselves rights because those are the people that are in power you're asking they were excluded from being in power. So when is it where women will be in the power position where men are
00:31:57
Oliver N Houseasking women for rights? Uh when there are women who are in power do you think wait a second if if if there is a female CEO and a and a man walks into her office and it's like I would like a
00:32:07
Jim Bobraise. Is he not asking her to grant him some sort of privilege or some sort of benefit? Absolutely. Yeah. But this is this is not the same category as a raise because the raise doesn't depend ult
00:32:20
Jim Bobwell actually it does it depends ultimately on force which has which appeals to men. So the question for you Oliver was this on people it appears to people who have the ability people who
00:32:29
Jim Bobhave yeah people have the ability to force to to enforce unjust or just laws. So when you want a just law, when when a bunch of women, right, when they wanted
00:32:41
Jim Bobthe right to vote, they were asking other people to give them the right to vote. That's how all rights work. I understand rights work because they're enforced by brute by brute force every
00:32:53
Jim Bobtime. Yeah. The there requires enforcement. So I don't So all men don't enforce. I know it's not about all men. It's that the fact that the people enforcing are going to be predominantly men. And if they were predominantly
00:33:05
Jim Bobwomen, they couldn't enforce it. Let's switch it for a second. Hold on. Let's switch it again. Men want the power, the right to vote, right? Let's switch it. Switch the history, right? Men want the
00:33:15
Oliver N Houseright to vote. Mhm. The enforcement are are women as you see them today. Not as we say today. If we want to flip the entirety of history. No, no, wait a second. If we We're not changing We're not all us equal. No, no, no. You can't do that because that's not how society develops. That's how a hypothetical
00:33:28
Oliver N Houseworks. No, but you can't change the hypothetical and not change the relevant variables. We would have to have society exist so that women over the entire course of history had built everything had excluded I didn't say I didn't say
00:33:39
Jim Bobmen are women. I'm I'm saying in this instance in this instance okay right well that's the thing is you're actually agreeing with me that throughout history why is it that men with the brute force
00:33:50
Jim Bobbuilt all of the things like everything you see right all of the big skyscrapers the tunnels the bridges underwater welders all of these things are you going to are you going to say that it just happens to be a social construct
00:34:03
Oliver N Housethat it happened to be men or is that a feature of biology so first off I think that there's this general idea that men built societ society and that that that that we should that that women did not play an integral or fundamental role to say that. No, no, but hold on. Just let
00:34:17
Oliver N Househim finish. Yeah. No, you're good. It's fine. It's I'm I'm fine with the back and forth, but yeah. So, it's all good. Yeah. So, I'm what I'm saying here is that there there were women who made very important advancements in almost
00:34:28
Oliver N Houseevery part of a um every part of advancement of infrastructure, advancement of industry that you just don't know about. Have some examples you'd like me to bring up. Wait, no, no. an advancement. Is that a an idea? I
00:34:40
Jim Bobmean, sure, we can talk about individual there's a straw, man. No, I didn't say they're not important. I didn't say women can't think of cool things. All right. We're talking about society.
00:34:50
Jim BobLet's say this city we're in right now. It's maintained. It's erected maintained by mostly men. Sure. Operating on what? Brute force. Not just brute force.
00:35:01
Jim BobOrganization and SIPs and ideas. It's based on ideas. That's fine. But without without the brute force, you can't have the management of the roads. For instance, this is why I talk about
00:35:12
Jim Bobleverage. Okay? Men who run the city, who actually use their force and their will to get under in tunnels and get dirty and die doing these things, right? To maintain if they suddenly said, "No,
00:35:24
Oliver N HouseI'm not doing this." Do you really think women could just step in and do all the same work? No. And I think that if women collectively decided they're not going to have children and kill themselves, men could and have the children. So then
00:35:34
Jim Bobthis is an equivalent thing. Women and men can both withhold something that is essential that they provide to society. Oliver, you agree with me. The the opening statement that I that I made was
00:35:46
Jim Bobthis. The leverage women have the important aspect of women in society is being mothers and raising good human beings first and foremost. No. Yes. No. That is one of the things that they can
00:35:59
Oliver N Housedo. That's the most What's the most important thing then under feminism though? The most important thing, people having the choice to do what benefits. They don't have the choice. What do you mean they don't have the choice? What person has full choice in doing what
00:36:11
Oliver N Housethey want? None of us have choices then. We don't we are all a slave to the person who's stronger than us. That's right. So then where does this get off the ground? All you're claiming is might right. No, I didn't say right. I'm saying descriptively it's the case. I'm
00:36:24
Jim Bobasking you from your perspective. If it's not, if we agree that the leverage men have is brute strength such that they could basically hit a button called I'm not going to work tomorrow and the
00:36:35
Jim Bobcity collapses and I asked you point blank, could women do the same job immediately and and get the city moving again? You said no. But then you said women could but women could leverage
00:36:47
Oliver N Housetheir bodies, right? Women could kill their children. I don't know. But what do you you're talking about people have been put into spheres. Women have been designated to the domestic sphere and men have been designated to historic. Is that a construct? What is that a
00:36:59
Oliver N Houseconstruct? I think largely it can be. No. Is it? I think in a certain sense it is. But there is I I'm not denying that men are stronger than women generally and thus they have developed on
00:37:11
Oliver N Housedifferent paths. You're just claiming that because women are I mean in a certain sense women h having to be pregnant is a burden upon someone's body that that affects their ability to contribute to society in the same way if
00:37:24
Jim Bobmen if women weren't sidelined by pregnancy then so there's a biological aspect I agree with okay we both agree there the biological aspect of men collectively not every individual man but collectively generally speaking men
00:37:37
Jim Bobare geared towards certain behavior certain work certain kinds of things high-risk things women are geared more towards something else. And so if that's true, this is what I'm asking you, Oliver, under your feminist view that
00:37:48
Jim Bobyou're advocating for, saying feminism is good for society, if it's not the best thing for women under your vision of feminism, if it's not the best thing
00:37:58
Jim Bobfor women to be at home raising good human beings, using their top leverage, we both agree, one of their top leverage uh points is I don't think I don't think every man should become a boxer and beat the [ __ ] out of people. I didn't say
00:38:10
Jim Bobthat. You don't need boxers for society. You need people with brute with brute. Hold on. You don't need boxers for society. You need humans. Okay. You You do need humans. But you do need You're saying that every man therefore would be
00:38:23
Jim Bobbetter off utilizing their brute strength at all times. This isn't my positive position. I'm asking you under your feminist view, which you're affirming tonight. So, you're under cross-examination. So, what I'm just
00:38:34
Jim Bobasking you a simple question. Mh. If it's not motherhood and raising the next generation of good humans, what is the higher obligation for women from a feminist view? From your view, no one
00:38:46
Oliver N Househas an obligation to necessarily raise the a generation. The reason is because no, wait a second. I want to explain this because I think this is important and it's brought up a lot. Feminism has no obligations is something I've heard you say before. I don't think that's true. One of the obligations and one of
00:38:59
Oliver N Housethe things that's not an obligation under feminism is to raise children because no one has an obligation to do that. However, you will always have people who have children in a society because people want to have kids. That's
00:39:12
Oliver N Housejust something that happens. So what we should do is we should incentivize people to have children by giving them the most economic resources available, the most personal freedom available so that the people can make those decisions. We should not go straight to
00:39:25
Jim Boblet's force women to be in the home. Nobody said nobody said force. Okay. Well, you were using the force doctrine. No, no. For just because I appeal descriptively to force doctrine is something that you cannot avoid in any paradigm. It doesn't follow that I'm
00:39:37
Jim Bobadvocating to force women to have children. I'm asking from your perspective if feminism is good for society and society requires both force and people. I'm asking what's the
00:39:49
Jim Bobobligatory position from your view that men and women have and are they different? They don't have distinct differences. Okay. So if there's no obligations under feminism, not true.
00:39:59
Jim BobThere's not gender specific obligations. So when a so when a um so there's no Okay. So there's no obligation for men
00:40:08
Oliver N Houseunder your feminist society to no to to enforce rights. There's not an No, wait. There there is not an obligation. Is that gendered? No. No. No. There is not
00:40:18
Jim Boban obligation for individuals to enforce anything. You don't have to become a police officer. So what how could you argue what's good for society? X is good fori society. Society has preconditions.
00:40:32
Oliver N HouseDo you agree? When we refer to society, we're talking about an aggregate of people living in an ordered community. Right? I don't think society necessarily has to be ordered. But I would say that are the definition you're providing, but
00:40:43
Jim BobI don't think the society has to be ordered. There can be a society in chaos. Well, to say it's in chaos means it's bordered. You could actually look at it and say that societyy's in chaos and this one's not. Sure. I guess no,
00:40:56
Jim Bobyou're defining order then is just distinct. That's fine. Sure. Societies are distinct and separate from each other. That's fine. So, but if if you're saying would you aren't you arguing
00:41:06
Jim Bobtonight that feminism would assume uh if you thought it was good that it would be ordered. Sure. So, feminist Okay. If feminism is
00:41:16
Jim Bobgood for society and society the way you're referring to it is ordered, it requires force which is gendered and it requires duties that are tied to that force which are gendered. Why? Yeah,
00:41:29
Oliver N Housebecause you're arguing for women's rights. No, I disagree with the first part that that that this idea of enforcement is inherently gendered. Give me a counter example. Men don't have to enforce the law. That's right. Is that
00:41:41
Oliver N Housethe society you want to live in? Men will enforce law and women will enforce the law. People step up. No, because you you're arguing that if we don't tell people you have to enforce the law, you you have to become a police officer, then no one will step up and do that. I
00:41:54
Oliver N Housethink we can incentivize people and give them the most freedom possible and individuals will gravitate towards the or towards the towards the industries. Okay, let me ask a different way. Is
00:42:05
Jim Bobsociety is a society better let's say society A has built into its metaethical position that it has that that men have the obligation to keep order with force
00:42:18
Oliver N Houseand then another society that doesn't have that obl obligation which society is you think is better well you're assuming in the first one that that metaethical obligation would therefore entail that those people would follow
00:42:28
Jim Bobthat right well yeah well the obligation would include um potential uh legality but more so maybe social pressure of obligation. Um, if that's exists, let's
00:42:38
Jim Bobsay let's say it's it was a society that appealed to women's rights and there was an obligation for men to defend women and protect their rights versus your feminist uh, you know, hypothetical
00:42:51
Oliver N Housesociety that doesn't have any obligations ultimately. What's one obligation? I think people should defend those who are more vulnerable than they are general. No, no, no. Women aren't just those who are more vulnerable
00:43:03
Oliver N Housebecause of course we can see that there are women who are stronger than men. We can see that there are young men who are stronger than older men. We can see Yeah, of course we should talk about particulars. You are talking about you're making you're kind of making men and women out to be this homogeneous
00:43:16
Jim Bobgroup that they're all kind of exist in separate domains and that's just not how it works. No, it does h it is how it works and I'm demonstrating that generality is a perfectly fine thing to do. I mean, you can take a bunch of
00:43:28
Jim Bobparticulars, add them up, and come up with a generalization. That's just basic induction. So, inductively, isn't it the case that it's best, it seems to be the
00:43:39
Jim Bobbest uh uh way to do it, that men, it just so happens to be the case that men are in the positions to enforce and defend and go to war. You know, why is it that men and women have different
00:43:50
Jim Bobprison systems? Why do men and women have different prison systems? I'm fully in favor of the I know, but couldn't you say couldn't you say your honor um you're just there are women who are some women who are stronger than men and
00:44:01
Jim Bobthere are some men you know and vice versa and stuff and appeal to these particulars. But isn't it the case that a prison system is a perfect example of the generality that I'm actually arguing from. Sure. But now you're making ugh claims. On what basis are you making
00:44:15
Jim Bobought claims that I didn't make an claim? Well, you're saying men and women ought to be indifferent. I said descriptively the case there's a reason why they are. But that reason is based in an ought claim. Of course it is. Do we have a duty to keep women away from
00:44:26
Oliver N Houseoutside of men's prisons? Do we have a duty? Yeah. I mean I think a society I from your point of view I don't I don't think that I don't think I think what you're doing is you're specifying duties really specifically. The duty is not to
00:44:38
Oliver N Housekeep women out of men's prisons. The duty is to um keep um vulner people who are more vulnerable women. Not always necessarily. I don't I don't like I don't I don't think we should who
00:44:50
Oliver N Housecommits more aggressive acts against of course it's men. I'm not arguing that it's not men, but I think that in principle we should keep um a very you know a man that is weaker away from a woman who is a serial killer. Well,
00:45:02
Jim Bobthat's a particular I'm talking about prisons though. So why is it in your ideal feminist society, why is it that if you're fighting for equality, why is it you still have separate prisons? What do you mean? I'm not Well, here's the
00:45:15
Oliver N Housething that I put in my feminism thing. We're not denying that there are disparities or differences. We don't deny that there's disparities or differences between groups of men. That doesn't mean that we think that I still
00:45:25
Jim Bobask you why though. I I the question was why in your society are you obligated from your perspective you're arguing tonight to keep prisons separate? Wait, who is obligated? Society as a whole is
00:45:37
Jim Bobyour is your ideal society. Look, it's Oliver's world right now. Oliver is saying feminism is good for society. That means there's a type of society that appeals to feminism and practices it. I'm asking you from an outsider.
00:45:49
Oliver N HousePretend I'm like uh like I'm visiting. And I'm like, why do you guys separate your prisons? What's your answer? Uh we should I think we should largely separate prisons because yeah, there are differences between men and women. And I
00:46:02
Oliver N Housedon't think and I think that men, you know, if men are especially men who are violent, especially men who are in prison, who have shown a lack of care for the safety of those around them, I think we should also ensure that men aren't hurting other men in prison
00:46:14
Jim Bobeither. Like I don't I I don't know. Like I So now I'm going to ask you if you argue that women are generally collectively more vulnerable than men and that's why there's good reason. I'm not arguing that there aren't some weak
00:46:26
Jim Bobmen that uh could be protected from stronger men, but we're talking about male female here. Why though? Why are we talking? Why don't we go weak? Because because you are you are creating two categories and I'm saying that they
00:46:39
Oliver N Houseexist. Of course, the categories exist, but you are making the claim that because Y is weaker than X, right? General rule. As general rule, why is we therefore we have an oblig No, an obligation. We should, you know, have separate, I don't know, prisons or
00:46:52
Jim Bobsomething like that. Why can't we do that inner in intragender if that makes sense? Well, the if you agree and if you agree that there's a good reason to have
00:47:02
Jim Bobwomen and men's prisons separated, then I'm going to ask you where where's the threshold where you no longer follow
00:47:10
Jim Bobthat rule outside of the prison. What do you I'm asking where else in society are you willing to separate the women for the same reason? Willing to separate women for the same reason? Yeah. I don't
00:47:23
Jim BobI don't I don't know. Like, for instance, let me give you a particular example. Is it better in your ideal feminist society that a weak woman is at home with her children and her husband
00:47:33
Jim Bobat 11:30 p.m. or signing out of her penthouse office with her lanyard coming down the elevator at 11:30 p.m. potentially uh the the victim of a of a
00:47:44
Oliver N Housemale crime. I think you are reducing what is best for women like a homogeneous level or group that's going to be best. No, I don't I better Well, you you're saying what's better because you're assuming that this woman is going to
00:47:58
Oliver N Houselike be assaulted or something like that. And I don't And yeah, I would rather not have a woman get assaulted. Of course, the solution though. No, no, but the solution to that problem is not to say, "Okay, we need to keep all women in the home because men can't stop
00:48:09
Jim Bobgraping them." Like, that's not really how we should operate. Well, no. Well, actually, the fact that it's mostly men graing women goes to my point that the
00:48:20
Jim Bobspecific the the specific argument tonight, it it comes back to the force doctrine every single time. It's never the case where you're going to be collectively writing rules and and um
00:48:32
Jim Bobbasically making society around this view that that women that we should protect men from women ever, right? We should protect men from everyone. But
00:48:42
Jim Bobno, no, I'm saying generally speaking, we don't structure society in a way that gears toward the concern of uh women aggressing men. It's usually the other way around, right? I mean, I think we should do both. Like, I don't know. I
00:48:54
Oliver N Housefeel like a consequence of the patriarchy in these norms that we have is that men can't be victims of abuse. Men can't be physically abused by women. And I think that's a problem. We should not have that. If a if a man is persistent to p is is subject to
00:49:06
Oliver N Housepersistent physical abuse, that should be taken seriously by a woman. Do you think that with enough manpower we can take down the patriarchy? With enough
00:49:16
Oliver N Housemanpower? I think with enough societal organization, with enough like I don't know. Yeah. Work, we can do it. Of course, we can restructure society. Of course, we can restructure society. So, with enough manpower, we can restructure
00:49:29
Oliver N Houseaway from the patriarchy. With enough change, we can we can get away from the patriarchy. I don't know. Like, you're arguing that like because men have to do it, therefore it's invalid or something like Well, that's kind of what I'm
00:49:40
Jim Bobasking is like if I ask someone with enough manpower and resources, could you take down the thing that's literally going to be mirroring what you're
00:49:50
Jim Bobaggregating in resources? In other words, to take down the patriarchy, you need to find a bunch of strong people to fight against this
00:50:00
Jim Bobbunch of strong people. people are going to look like the collection of people.
00:50:13
Jim Bobthis this this tyrannical body of men who are impeding on our rights. You never go out and knock on the doors and grab the women first. I mean, in order to fight or Yeah. Sure. What? What? But
00:50:26
Oliver N Houseyou also wouldn't grab weak men like Well, no, you would. You would. Why not? No. Why? because they're still stronger than the women. Not all women. No, no, no. You're saying I I think there are I think the the echelon of like weakest
00:50:37
Jim Bobmen out there would absolutely be less strong than than the average woman. I'm not sure. If you take the same body frame, if you knock on a door, okay, and it's like the same height, right? And
00:50:49
Jim Bobeven weight. If you're going to go go to war, you're going to grab the the dude. It's not just because of force, though. Would you agree that men are are more
00:50:58
Jim Boblikely to exert aggression even for bad reasons than women? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So, if you're going to war, you would want someone who was who
00:51:10
Jim Bobis able, capable, and willing to exert their aggression on another aggressor. Whereas, if if it's generally the case women are a little more timid, why are they though? Why are they more like
00:51:22
Oliver N Houselikely to exercise their aggression? I think this is biology. I don't know. I don't I don't necessarily think that's the case. Do you have a son? Do I have a son? No, I don't. I do. Okay. So, are you saying that um Well, you're raising your son, though. Well, no. I'm saying
00:51:34
Jim Bobthat um your son's going to reflect your world view. Well, no. No. No. a three-year-old and even beforehand, you're going to notice when you become a father, God willing, which is anti-feminist, um you're going to see
00:51:47
Jim Bobthat there's a clear distinction between boys and girls in their very uh instinct and and the way they even behave and express themselves and the aggressive ones, the males are aggressive. You just see it right in front of you. That is
00:52:00
Oliver N Housenot necessarily the case for all boys whatsoever. Not all generally speaking. Wait, but you're also raising your son specifically. Everything you do is in a gendered sense. You're raising your son to be what? Your version of You don't
00:52:12
Oliver N Housethink we should affirm gendered uh gendered uh society? I don't necessarily think we should tell people that there's a correct way to be a man or a correct way to be a woman. So, no, I don't think that we should raise our sons to be
00:52:25
Jim Bobaggressive, to show their, you know, like like I don't know, like that that aggression is a good way to get what you want or something like that. Well, I'm not saying that, but ultimately aggression and violence is an excellent
00:52:36
Oliver N Houseway to get what you want. Um, it works better. It's it's more critically uh it's a critical rather would you rather your son uh primarily when he has a disagreement with someone like at school or something like that, get into a fist
00:52:48
Jim Bobfight with the kid or would you rather have him have the communication skills to be able to talk that disagreement out? Well, in that instance, the in that instance, the ideal is to keep them uh
00:52:59
Jim Bobin in a system, right? than to fight. We're not talking about whether or not violence is useful every time now or not. Change it more often useful or we're talking about maintain the reason
00:53:11
Jim Bobthis came up is we're talking about maintaining society. For instance, the like let's take another thing. Would I rather would I rather the security guard at my school use force to stop an
00:53:23
Oliver N Houseaggressor or talk to them nicely like the teacher does? So, wait, it would depend on the situation because I do. No, no, but I do absolutely think that in a lot of these situations deescalation can be effective and be
00:53:35
Oliver N Housemore effective than just violence is great deescalation. No, it's not. Yes, it is. You're you're wait a second. You're one assuming that the violence will be successful in its in its aim and two that it won't have other
00:53:47
Oliver N Houseramifications. I think a society that always deals with its problems violently will actually have worse consequences. I don't think we should encourage kids to beat the [ __ ] out of each other every time. But but that's what you're saying.
00:54:00
Oliver N HouseThat's what violence is a very effective way to get what you want. I didn't say the ought. I described that it is. You keep confusing ought and and description. First off, I actually don't think it is because it can become self-defeating. If your way of always
00:54:12
Jim Bobresolving conflict is resorting to violence, people will be less likely to associate with you. People will be less likely to you. Yeah. Really? Okay. So, but if you extrapolate that out because we're talking about societies right now.
00:54:25
Jim BobIs society better with feminism? is is is feminism good for society? Right? The reason this is such an important topic, this this violence and force aspect is
00:54:35
Jim Bobbecause society itself, no matter how you try to um poetically describe your vision of of feminism, it's always going
00:54:44
Jim Bobto be reliant on the threat of force. And so at this mass scale level, Oliver, you're going to be an advocate for a
00:54:53
Jim Bobpointing gun right at the society and saying if you aggress over here, force is going to come in. That's what the violation of a right is, right? I don't think that's how I would want society to you don't want if you want society with
00:55:07
Jim Bobrights, which is in your opening, feminism, individuals having the same equal rights, equal opportunities. If you want that, you have to enforce it. Of course you do. If you want that and
00:55:18
Jim Bobyou have to enforce it, you need you need to appeal to inequality. It's a contradiction. What do you mean you have to appeal to inequality? Everyone has to appeal to inequality all the time in order to specifically with sexes. No,
00:55:30
Oliver N Houseno, wait a second. No, because then every man has to appeal to someone who is stronger than him. Un Yeah, but unless Okay, then then all men are at the mercy of the man who is stronger.
00:55:42
Jim BobThat's right. Patriarchy. That's descriptively placed. Now, now that you admit that that's actually true, and I conceded that that's true, why does that matter? I'm saying it matters because if you advocate for a feminist society,
00:55:55
Jim Bobyou're advocating you're actually I would argue that rights themselves, uh, feminism is actually sexist, ironically, because feminism assuming rights assumes there's a body of men who are going to
00:56:08
Oliver N Housedefend those rights. They don't have the obligation to do that. Of course, people have an obligation to defend those under feminism. Why? Why? Yeah. I just think in general everyone should have an obligation to defend those. Who cares what you think? Sure. If you don't have
00:56:21
Jim Bobany sort of empathy or care for anyone else other than yourself. No, but empathy isn't it, dude. Empath I've seen a video you did. Empathy. Empathy is an involuntary signal. That is perhaps what someone else is experiencing. That
00:56:34
Jim Bobdoesn't tell you what you ought to do. You're in a debate now arguing feminism is good for society. I bring in what's necessary to keep the good in society and highlight force. I ask you point
00:56:45
Jim Bobblank under your feminist view. Do men have the obligation morally, ethically to uphold law that provides the playground you call feminism feminist
00:56:56
Oliver N Housefreedom? Men, society in general has an obligation, I guess, to maintain itself. But it doesn't follow from that that every man has an obligation to uphold
00:57:08
Jim Bobsociety. Well, then then this doesn't have any bearing. It does bear. It does have bearing because we're talking about a collective, right? We're already we're choosing the people who already exist right now. Let's choose the stronger men. Let's choose. There's a bunch of
00:57:20
Jim Bobstrong men. Let's choose the men that can actually enforce. There's a bunch of men right now who are really strong. They're in uniforms. Yes. Yep. Yep. They have to be trained. They're in uniforms. hops. Probably too unhealthy for my my
00:57:32
Jim Bobtaste, but let's just say they're all fit. Okay. They're in a position where they come in and there's a there's a a man or a woman being aggravated, assaulted by someone. Okay. Under your
00:57:44
Jim Bobsystem of feminism, because it has to be from a feminist view. Why does why does the collective of mostly men who are the enforcement arm, why do they have an obligation to defend anybody? Because you shouldn't want to see people
00:57:57
Oliver N Househurt. Like I don't know how to I don't know. I don't know how to appeal. That's like saying like you should like licorice ice cream. No, I don't because I don't I think I think seeing someone suffering and wanting that not to exist is different than ice cream flavor. What
00:58:10
Oliver N Housedo you like? I I think you're appealing to an ultimate ultimately morally relativistic No. No. You are you're appealing to moral this idea of moral relativism that No, it's not my view. I
00:58:21
Oliver N Houseam not a moral relativist. No, I don't have to be. Absolutely not. Okay. How do you Would you would you like me to tell you how I I have Why is feminism morally good? Why is it morally good? So we can
00:58:32
Oliver N Houseappeal to for example I think that moral objectivism can be defended on the basis the same way that like um what is it called? Epistemic objectivism can be defended. Basically this idea that I
00:58:44
Oliver N Houseknow that the world around me exists. How do I know that the world around me exists? Do I really know that the world around me exists? No, I wouldn't grant that, but go on. Okay. Okay. Well, so we don't we don't really we're trusting our
00:58:55
Oliver N Housesenses to tell us that the world around us exists. I'm intuitively trusting that you're sitting in front of me with a microphone. I have a microphone. I have my iPad, glass of water here. All of that. I could be wrong. I could indeed