1v1 DEBATE: Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #14
Date: 2025-05-04
Duration: 4h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_03Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Oliver Ni House. Topic: Is feminism good for society?
00:08:54
Key MomentJim Bob's force doctrine: feminism is performative contradiction. Women can't grant themselves rights.
00:12:23
Key MomentJim Bob: women's only leverage is chastity and childbearing — feminism inverted this power against them
03:16:00
Key MomentJim Bob pivots on bear question: agrees men are dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them
04:14:08
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism is a lie that inverts what's beautiful about women
04:18:05
Key MomentOliver closing: humans can transcend biological impulses through reason. Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Topics Discussed
00:01:49
Opening Statements
Oliver: feminism = equal opportunity not equal outcome; cites Norway/Sweden GDP, Princeton mixed-gender study. Jim Bob: force doctrine, feminism is performative contradiction affirming patriarchy it opposes.
00:17:17
Force Doctrine Debate
Can power equal legitimacy? Oliver: potential force ≠ actual authority. Jim Bob: inductive reasoning (sun rising). Abortion rights as paradox of women asking men to defend right to terminate.
01:38:00
Women's Obligations
Jim Bob: women bear no obligations in feminist framework. Oliver: pay taxes, follow laws, exist as citizens. Jim Bob: asymmetrical and untenable.
01:42:00
Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Oliver: kidney analogy for bodily autonomy. Jim Bob: abortion destroys the very leverage (childbearing) that gives women power.
03:16:00
Man vs Bear
Jim Bob pivots: agrees men ARE dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them from bad. Brian draws racial variant.
04:14:08
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism requires patriarchy, no obligations. Oliver: humans have capacity for reason to transcend biological impulses; Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Transcript
Page 3 of 6
01:57:47
Jim Bobshould be represented in that process. Yeah. But that why why don't people under the system have the right to establish a majority view that informs
01:57:57
Jim Boblaw that removes entitlements? How does it remove entitlements? How men's entitlement to have dominion over women? No, dude. Any entitlement you look at is
01:58:09
Oliver N Houseprovided and it can be overturned, right? Sure. What I don't I don't really see. You're just saying I get it. Whoever has more power is able to do what they want. What do where do we go from here? Uh well, what's interesting
01:58:20
Jim Bobwhere we go is if we both agree that the descriptively it's the case that whoever has the power does what they want. The only question between everybody in the
01:58:31
Jim Bobpolitical spectrum, whoever you debate, libertarians, Christians, Trumpers, progressives, commies, the only question from my view is whose ethical paradigm
01:58:42
Oliver N Houseis informing the force. Is that fair? I guess. Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Whoever has we we we've established a conclusion over and over. Whoever whoever can do what they
01:58:55
Oliver N Housewant can do what they want. We're at a tutology here. And I don't disagree with you that whoever has the most power can do what they want. The question isn't what can they do, it's what they should do. I know. That's why I'm saying
01:59:06
Jim Bobultimately all of these debates come down to, including the feminist debate, who should have the power and whose worldview should inform the use of force. Sure. So under a feminist view
01:59:18
Jim Bobbeing that here's here's another aspect of feminism that I've debated against that it doesn't have it doesn't have a normative authority or or standard to say you're being a good feminist or a
01:59:28
Oliver N Housetrue feminist right or a false one for instance I mean feminists disagree on so much that I don't really I don't know I I I also wouldn't claim to be the like authority on feminist that's fine just go out on a ledge like if if if a
01:59:41
Oliver N Housefeminist if a woman is like I think that a woman's proper role is in the home and I don't think that she should have the right to vote and women who do that are going against being a woman. I would say that that's pretty counter to every single what if they said that was what
01:59:53
Jim BobI'm pointing to is there's that feminism itself is um is basically pluralism like even among feminists like so if if a woman came to the table a tradition a
02:00:04
Oliver N Housetrad mom right she can live in the home she can say that's feminist right sure it kind of is because she's asserting her own choice and autonomy to do with what with her life what she wants right so that is I guess yeah you
02:00:17
Jim Bobcan be a feminist and want to be a stay-at-home Those two things are not. So it could happen in the next 20 years where feminism the the last stage of feminism as we know it could be back to
02:00:29
Oliver N Housethe home. Right? If women collectively decided that that is what they wanted to do and they didn't think that other women who didn't do that were somehow
02:00:39
Oliver N Housefailing in their womanhood, then sure. Could it be feminist to be submissive to your husband? If a woman wants to make that decision, sure. But it would depend on what you mean by submissive. Would it
02:00:51
Oliver N Housebe okay first? Would it would it would it mean that he you are kind of giving away some permanent kind of stake that you have? Like so once you decide to be submissive to your husband, would that entail that you can never not be submissive or could you go back on that
02:01:04
Jim Bobarrangement and be like, "No, you know what? I've been submissive to you for a while. I've decided that this is not a paradigm that I like. I'm not going to do that." Yeah. Well, that that's why probably there's so many divorces is that um I want to blame it fully on
02:01:16
Jim Bobthat, but I would say individualism both from the men and the woman perspective. I think I think feminism is rooted in individualism and I think individualism is actually uh uh ba basically a net
02:01:28
Jim Bobloss for society because what you get is people pursuing their own individual preferences, wants, desires above the any view of a collective and I would call the family one of the more local
02:01:40
Oliver N Housecollectives and so I think that individualism in the home for instance um I don't think people should be individualistic in the home. I fully agree with you. People People should if they have children, especially if they have families, you should absolutely
02:01:52
Jim Bobprioritize the well-being of your family to an extent. Okay. What if the man What if the man decides what's the best well-being for the family is X and they vote this way and the woman having the right to vote cancels out his vote?
02:02:04
Oliver N HouseWell, then yeah, that's how it should be. People it should Yeah, they should just cancel each other out. Yeah. What What do you What What How is that counter? Two people voting oppositely do cancel each other out. I know, but it they represent the same house and people
02:02:18
Oliver N Housewho represent the same house can disagree. Now granted, is it better that the heads of two houses are in disagreement? I actually would agree that I don't think it is, which is why I think certain political differences that if you have them, you should not marry
02:02:30
Jim Bobsomeone who contradicts your core values. Well, I'm just wondering why would it why would it be an advantage uh um to give the woman the vote inside the house and not just give it to the man
02:02:42
Oliver N Houseanyway? Like what would be the advantage? What do you what the advantage? What's the advantage of giving women the right to vote inside a house where it splits the vote? It splits the because the man could be wrong.
02:02:54
Jim BobThe man could be wrong about what he wants. We should not assume that men know what's best because they don't a lot of the time. Well, I know. But that you could just reverse that and say the woman was wrong. But but I'm saying what's the advantage though? Because because to me there's an advantage.
02:03:07
Jim BobThere's even an advantage for the man being wrong and there being a consequence to him being wrong. What's the consequence of him being wrong? Well, if he if he votes on based on the House, he's he is the representative of
02:03:19
Oliver N Housethe House, right? Right. No, he's a representative of himself. I'm sorry. You just You're claiming that No, hold on. You're claiming whatever he does is therefore representative of the House. That doesn't mean that he's voting in the best interest of the House. I didn't
02:03:31
Jim Bobsay the best interest, but he's certainly not representing just himself. When you're a father, you're going to realize this, right? Even voting voting at the local level, you're going to realize that your influence and your your voice to vote at the local levels.
02:03:43
Oliver N HouseI completely it's going to reflect on you like you're basically speaking on behalf of your children. Sure. And I don't think that adults should inherently or like spouses should inherently speak on behalf of their
02:03:55
Oliver N Housespouses and take away the ability for their spouse to speak for themselves. Yeah. But why should let's give women then then the woman should be the rep this should be the representative of the house. the woman only women voting. I
02:04:07
Jim Bobmean I under what why can't we do that instead? Well I what I would argue that women only voting like um I would say if women only vote then women only fight wars. No. Why does that necessarily have
02:04:19
Jim Bobto Well, I would say that the the vote and you can go back to even Lord Chromemer uh who voting to conscription is stupid. Well, no, I'm saying that I use that as a hyperbole. I was just saying that um even very early on when
02:04:32
Jim Bobwhen women's votes were started to be the talk of the town very early on men realized and vocalized that that um that
02:04:41
Jim Bobwomen because they can't enforce the policy that they're voting for. They can't do it right. They can't they can't enforce the policy they're voting for. U certain weaker men can't. No, but men
02:04:54
Oliver N Housecollectively can and women collectively can't. Okay. than weaker men collectively can. So why they should they shouldn't be able to vote? I fine. I concede. But then you're conceding
02:05:05
Jim Bobthat that why should women vote, right? If you understand this logic, I'm not advocating for everyone who's a man biologically should have a vote. I would be the first to say maybe I don't think should have I should have a vote. So So
02:05:17
Jim Bobthen who do we determine has the right to vote? Well, we in the past there was actually a set of variables. You were white and you were slave land owner. It doesn't have to be just that. It could be it could be uh yeah it could be
02:05:29
Jim Boblandowning. It could be like it makes sense though like look look look at it this way. Does everyone in the company who works for the company uh get a vote on the board? Well some people actually do believe that in terms
02:05:40
Jim Bobof like you know democratizing does it happen though? I mean ultimately no right. No it doesn't because that's not not the economic system and and the reason that is is because the people sitting at the table actually put skin in the game. Right. So there's risk.
02:05:53
Jim BobWell, but they what risk are they putting forward? Well, they sometimes they put money, they put resources. And what happens if they don't? Well, if if they lose, they lose that money that they put and then what do they do? Well, they could vote or get kicked out or
02:06:04
Oliver N Housewhatever. No, no. I mean, if they if if if someone puts forward risk Yeah. in in terms of starting a business and something like that and it fails. Yeah. And their business fails, what do they do? Start over. Start over or get a job
02:06:16
Jim Bobas as a labor. So, they're not risking anything that the other people who are already laborers are not already. Forget it there, dude. there's already a loss. The fact that they can do something else doesn't remove the fact that there was a loss. I'm not saying what they're not
02:06:27
Jim Boblosing. I'm saying what's the loss for uh the the person who has no skin in the game. Skin in the game is a phrase, you know, the phrase, right? Why don't you think women have a skin in the game in the society that we live in? They don't
02:06:38
Oliver N Househave a skin in the game because they don't have to enforce anything. I and this is the I think maybe this maybe this comes down to disagreement we're getting at. I don't think that shaping society even fundamentally or primarily
02:06:50
Oliver N Housecomes down to who is stronger. I think ideas are so much get a vote because she lives in a society and is subject to the laws. No, if the society determines that she
02:07:03
Jim Bobshouldn't have a vote that doesn't that's just circular. I'm saying why is it the case that Hawkua why should Andrew Tate have a right to vote if maybe he shouldn't. Okay. So then what? Yeah, you agree with me with the
02:07:16
Jim Bobinquiry. Why is it that you have an immediate defense to voting? Isn't it Oliver possible that our voting structure currently? So then you're just collapsing this into monarchy then. Monarchy I think monarchy is pretty
02:07:28
Jim Bobcool. Okay. Well, but but voting itself like certainly if voting meant that you were going to influence policy both both domestically and foreign, you would perhaps understand the system, perhaps
02:07:40
Jim Bobunderstand some level of policy. Most men don't. I understand that. That's why, dude, you already got me to concede that I don't think most men should vote, but certainly the men who have skin in
02:07:52
Jim Bobthe game. No, collectively men I would say collectively men who who offer their body in service that they could die whether women offer their body in service of birthing these men. Yeah, that's the only leverage they have. No,
02:08:05
Jim Bobhold on. But that seems like pretty powerful and important leverage, right? Well, no. They can't enforce the rights, though. Cuz voting. No, cuz voting Hold on. Voting is their kids. No, that's not enforcing rights. How? What do you mean?
02:08:17
Oliver N HouseHow is not having a kid enforcing right? I absolutely think it can be a very powerful leveraging tool if we talk about it. And what is it? If like if if women all collectively say if you don't give I mean some people are saying if you don't give us the right to do this
02:08:28
Jim Bobthen we're going to not have children. Yeah. 4B. Yeah. They're all ugly. No one wants to have children with that. Wait a second. That's not I mean it's true. Well, but what does that what does that prove? That doesn't It proves that just like the suffragette movement who are a
02:08:40
Jim Bobbunch of goblins who couldn't find men. Okay. Just seriously. Okay. What does that do? It's just what it just properly identifies the actual problem which is which is women who actually uh put
02:08:52
Jim Bobthemselves out there with the hopes and the desire to be found by a man to be taken care of will in return give them children, raise their kids for them and then return be respected and be taken care of.
02:09:04
Jim BobLargely society was this. In fact, what's so crazy about the feminist movement is that before all these goblins came on the screen, the scene is that women were actually revered. They were protected. They were they were let
02:09:16
Oliver N Houseout to be in the home. And guess what? Guess what? Benevolent. Benevolent. Fine. It's fine. Benevolent slavery. Yeah. Benevolent slavery. Beautiful. Okay. Well, could be. I don't know how we I don't know how we come to an impass
02:09:28
Jim Bobwhere you think that certain people having their autonomy restricted is how we should operate. Look, it's not even there's only certain things that are restricted. By the way, a society of rights and entitlements. Your autonomy
02:09:40
Jim Bobis restricted all the time. All of course I'm not saying it's not. So what's the difference between in the street and in the home? Dude, what do you mean? What's the difference between your autonomy being restricted right here out on the street and a woman's
02:09:53
Jim Bobbeing restricted in the home? What is the difference between if mine is restricted in the home? Why shouldn't mine be restricted in the home? If a society is based on restrictions, of course it is. Then I don't understand why you're picking and choosing between
02:10:05
Oliver N Houseone and the other. What's the threshold? What's the what's the what's the um what do they call it? Yeah. I think you should have to pay taxes, but I don't think people should be able to steal your bodily organs. Okay. Like I don't I don't you know what I mean? Like this this gets down to the whole libertarian
02:10:18
Oliver N Houseargument. Taxation is slavery because taxing your labor. Okay. But then there are certain therefore then there are certain entitlements that are fair entitle over things that you are that you owe such as a portion of your income to ensure that society continues. But
02:10:31
Jim Bobyou don't have to donate bodily tissue or you don't have to donate your blood or something like that. I mean, I I myself, I know this is a feminist debate, but I myself might actually
02:10:41
Jim Bobviolate uh consider violation of autonomy for for certain things, but I don't know exactly where that is, but I'm willing and and it is ambiguous, but what we can we at least hopefully agree
02:10:52
Oliver N Houseon is there seems to be some line there. there. We don't know exactly where the line is, but there there is a certain balance between freedom and autonomy that exists that society has to be at.
02:11:03
Jim BobOkay. But here's the thing. What is being ultimately violated if you repeal the 19th amendment? What do you mean? What ultimately is like what's ultimately being violated? Like what's
02:11:16
Oliver N Housethe big their right to have representation in the society in which they live and that they are affected. What do you mean representation? They should be represented in the government. Why should Hawktua be
02:11:28
Jim Bobrepresented in the government? Pay taxes and follow the laws. Wait a second. Wait a second. Hawk Tua can spit spit on that thing and and because Hold on. And because she can spit on that thing and
02:11:40
Jim Bobwe live in a shitty degenerative society that prioritizes garbage. Your view is because Hawk Tua I don't have to agree with that. Hold on. Hakua can spit on it and because she made some money on
02:11:53
Jim Bobspitting on it that she should be able to no inform with her vote things she doesn't understand. Most people it's not about understanding. It's so you're saying it doesn't matter to understand. No because and I agree with you.
02:12:04
Oliver N HouseDemocracy is a fundamentally flawed system. It's pile of trash. Okay. But and this is what Churchill said is democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. There is not a better system. There's
02:12:16
Oliver N Housenot a better system out there. No. I mean, you're saying sympathetic to monarchy, then you were saying that you were sympathetic to one person making those determinations. Well, no. Uh, you could have a monarchy and the one person
02:12:27
Jim Bobmaking the determination requires some external uh view or paradigm that's higher than them as a person who has preferences. Wait, what do you mean? like a Christian monarchy. Okay. The the person at the top, the king, um if he
02:12:39
Jim Bobwent outside the normative authority of of his ethics and he started to run around with his preferences, which would be an individualist uh view, um then they wouldn't they he like that's how
02:12:51
Jim Bobyou get rid of those people. It's like you can have that, right? And it's not uh locked into this view that you're just sitting on your own throne of preferences the way it's always depicted, right? Isn't it possible that
02:13:02
Oliver N Housea monarchy could exist that's informed by something larger than the individual sitting in the seat? Ideally, yes. Okay. But I'm saying that there's no way to know that that's not going to collapse into that individual they want. And
02:13:14
Jim Bobthat's what largely happens in in dictatorship. I think it also depends on how long it takes to collapse for me because the topic is feminism. What I've seen since the feminist movement started in all of its phases. And there are
02:13:28
Jim Bobpeople on the right wing, the conservatives, they're actually classical liberals who think, well, no, the feminism we have now is trash. But the the early phase, no, I'm saying it's
02:13:37
Jim Boball bad. It's not good for society because it results in more individualism and it collapses the integrity of what makes a society. And the the integrity
02:13:48
Oliver N Housethat makes a society is families. Okay. If you are against individualism, which frankly I could say to an extent I am against as well, you should be against it for men and women. I Well, yeah, it doesn't. Okay. So then if men don't have
02:14:01
Jim Bobthe right if women don't have the right to vote and exercise their preferences in that way, then then men should not have that right. I I'm fine. It's just when you get to voting, I'm totally fine with listing some sort of uh components
02:14:13
Oliver N Houseor or attributes like on a baseball card. Like Yeah. So then some of it would have to be in form informing things. time. If some women were sufficiently informed and could pass a citizenship test, which I'm sure many can, um, do
02:14:25
Jim Bobyou think that Yeah. Then then they should have the right to vote? No. Okay. Well, then it's not based on that. Well, it' be first it would be first the prerequisite is to be a man. Okay. Well, then that's just why
02:14:38
Jim Bobuh because they're a part of the category where it could be the case where they're going to actually um you know risk their bodies. So the well women also risk their bodies. children. Yeah, but I I would make it a duty. They don't have a duty to though. This is
02:14:51
Jim Bobwhere this is where they don't have a duty to have children. No, no, sorry. From my point of view, Christian ethical paradigm, the duties for men and women are different. And because the duties are different, their
02:15:03
Jim Bobplace in society and what they're uh expected to do and where they find themselves are are they they vary. from your perspective, which is largely sort of like a liberal um sort of like a like
02:15:15
Jim Boba individual. It's still individualism though. It's like you want people to pursue their own personal wants and desires regardless of what other people find uh appalling or like as long as
02:15:26
Jim Bobit's legal, you you go and do it, right? No, not necessarily. I think there Well, I I mean I think there there are certain things that can be legal that I don't think people should do. But I'm saying the result of that liberalism that that
02:15:38
Jim Bobfree liberalism the result of that like I think that feminism is largely intertwined with that that view like
02:15:46
Jim Boblike for instance feminists aren't all um like Iron Rand fans or whatever but but the thing is ultimately ultimately the thing is do as thou wilt right
02:15:59
Jim Bobregardless of your duties. That's why the biggest criticism when you match up feminism with any other view, especially religious views, that they don't have any duties and obligations. There's zero
02:16:11
Oliver N Housefor men and women. There's nothing that grounds your duties. Well, I think it's because in our society, we don't have to specifically ground duties in what people ought to do, especially with
02:16:24
Oliver N Houseregards to reproduction. People want to have kids. That is a innate biological desire of both men and women. And men and women will have children if they are given the
02:16:35
Oliver N Houseopportunity to do so. If they are given the financial resources to do so. You don't have to force them to do it. That's just not how Nobody said force. Yeah, we're talking about duties. You don't have women do not have to be
02:16:46
Jim Bobrelegated to the home in order for there to be children. Wait a second. In order for you keep using this force as if people are going to force people. We're talking about you're going to take the right to vote away. take the right to you already agreed that that could
02:17:00
Jim Bobhappen and still be consistent with your view. No, it wouldn't. Yeah, it would. You already you already conceded that under your view, if it were the case that women collectivized and they said, you know what, we don't want the right to vote. You said, well, just don't
02:17:11
Jim Bobvote. No, if the women voted to have it completely repealed, that would be fair under the democratic system. You can vote. Yeah. Of course, democracy can lead to authority. How's that inconsistent with your your view, though? It's not It's not inconsistent.
02:17:25
Jim BobOf course, they vote their own rights away. Yeah. Well, absolutely. Okay, cool. So, so if women disagree here, so well that's what I'm saying. If women could vote their rights away to vote, if it happened, men could vote their rights
02:17:37
Oliver N Houseaway. Yeah. So, you should be fine with that, right? So, I mean, the ideal I'm saying in defending democracy, you don't have to defend every part of what could happen in a democratic system. Dem
02:17:50
Oliver N Housedemocracy is the best version of government. It can sometimes go astray and it can sometimes lead to bad outcomes. And we're not. It's just saying that's that's part of the reality that we live in. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, that could happen. Yeah.
02:18:02
Jim BobBut even democracy itself is in a type of a contradiction. Is what? Democracy itself is in a type of contradiction if it can't produce something that's not
02:18:12
Jim Bobitself. What do you mean? I'm saying that if democracy can produce all outcomes except for ridding itself of democracy. I mean, it can. Okay. It can,
02:18:21
Oliver N Housebut can it hear? It could. The question of whether it could still democracy. Yeah, people can democratically vote away their power. That's how Hitler got into office. Okay. So, if it's still democratic, right? Sorry, maybe I
02:18:34
Jim Bobshouldn't say that. That's I I think you can say that. Okay. If if uh if that's the see I don't understand that seems to be like something that's crucial to the view
02:18:43
Jim Bobitself because every feminism is all downstream from uh you have the entitlement and entitlements are down you know are rights and then rights give you this uh voice and then the voice
02:18:56
Jim Bobgives you a vote and the voice and then the vote gives you a policy and so on and so on. Okay. I I don't understand why we're under the assumption that this is something like worth defend like
02:19:07
Oliver N Housewould you would you die to defend this system? Defend what? Democracy voting just the whole system uh against anything alternative that you didn't know the outcome of. Sure. Yeah. I mean
02:19:19
Jim Bobin terms of like authoritarianism. Yeah. Okay. And authoritarianism you would define how do you know you're in an authoritarian system? How do I know I'm in an authoritarian system? I guess when
02:19:30
Oliver N Housepeople's constitutional rights are being violated um when uh you know individuals are not respecting the checks and balances of the government that are currently being set up or are in place but aren't those things authoritarian
02:19:43
Oliver N Housewhat do you mean they're authoritarian those structures how are they authoritarian you can have democracy with safeguards I'm not saying do democracy is not direct when we talk about democracy it's it's always a trade-off between absolute complete mob
02:19:55
Oliver N Houserule will people and some safeguards to ensure it doesn't go ary that's kind what a constitution and that's kind of what the Bill of Rights is. That's what the Supreme Court that's what I'm saying is like everything is authoritative in
02:20:06
Jim Bobthe end and all everything every view you balance it I know but that's that's where it comes into play is that if the topic of the debate is feminism is good
02:20:15
Jim Bobfor society or not. Yeah. I'm not I'm still not sure how feminism produces an ethical framework that anyone should appeal to at all. Feminism doesn't
02:20:27
Oliver N Houseproduce an ethical framework. Feminism is just a description of it doesn't produce an ethical framework. It's based on an ethical framework. Okay. But it just doesn't produce it. Feminism is not a metaethical theory. Okay. So there is
02:20:39
Jim Bobthere is a framework that's judging feminism. Sure. And you're saying feminism according to this view is good. What's that view? Feminism like what what is determining that feminism is
02:20:51
Jim Bobgood? at a certain point some type of moral objectivism, but I don't know exactly what kind of moral objectivism that is. So wait a second. I I can't hold on Oliver. I can't justify the
02:21:02
Jim Bobaxioms of logic. Oliver, if you're coming to a debate and saying feminism is good for society, feminism, feminism is a type of an apparatus and the thing
02:21:13
Jim Bobthat's judging it in this case you are holding the metric view is saying this is good for society. So you are the metaethical view, right? Is it just your preferences? No, it's not. I could be
02:21:25
Oliver N Housewrong and other I could I'm not this this doesn't collapse into relativism because what what your what any other kind of objective view I mean one that appeals to God, one that appeals to this just says, "Yeah, that's right because God says it's right and therefore I'm
02:21:38
Jim Bobgoing to ground it in it being right because of that." So it's it's masking this. Isn't that still better than a pluralistic feminism where uh two feminists could coexist having completely counteractive preferences and still be called feminists? Well, you can
02:21:51
Oliver N Househave counteractive preferences, but what they would agree on is both of them are living valid expressions of womanhood. Well, I mean that that would the agreement if one of them believes that the other should be legally prevented
02:22:04
Jim Bobfrom doing that or something like that, then yeah, they then they would not be a feminist. Okay. So, it sounds like you're now I I don't want to say shifting as like a like like you're dancing. I'm just saying it sounds like
02:22:15
Oliver N Housewhat you're saying now is feminism is about the expression of w womanhood. I mean, it's the expression of I don't know. It's it's the expression of saying that that people should not be defined by their sex or
02:22:29
Oliver N Housegender. That they should not be that they should not have their rights. They should not have their privileges like taken away because of Oliver. If all of the men in power, we agree it's a collective of strong men in power. They
02:22:40
Jim Bobcan do that. They shouldn't. I don't. Why are we No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. If all of those men declared that they were women, would it still be a Would it still be men in power? Would it be still be men in power? Do you want to get into the woman question? Is that what you
02:22:53
Jim Bobwant to do? Well, I'm I don't know your view. I'm just wondering if there's a group of of biological males who hold a position of enforcement and power in a society. If those you point to them, right, cuz the feminists are saying
02:23:06
Jim Bobwe're being oppressed. That's the whole point. It starts with the assumption that they're being oppressed. Well, what are they being oppressed by? By a patriarchy. Okay, those are men, right? Yeah. Well, if men
02:23:17
Oliver N Housecan be not men, we we can get into that. I So, I mean, I don't I'd be happy. I wrote a lot about this idea of like what a woman is and and the reality is I actually don't think that it is possible
02:23:27
Oliver N Houseto uh provide a set of necessary and sufficient conditions for womanhood or manhood or what is a man or what is a woman that includes all the people we would normally think of as women and all the people that we'd normally think of as men. So how would you and this is a
02:23:41
Jim Bobreally interesting question. How would you define a woman? a woman, someone who has the uh developmental pathways uh toward having ovaries and and giving birth even if they didn't fully develop. Okay. So, there are certain individuals
02:23:53
Oliver N Housewho don't have that because the the No, the pathway is always there. The pathway isn't necessarily Have you heard of something like there's something like squire syndrome? So, Sawyer syndrome. No, the the pathway is always tilted one direction or the other and that one is tilted towards male in that case. I can
02:24:06
Oliver N Houseprovide the case of Sawyer syndrome for you because I had it down as as an example. So um Sawyer syndrome these individuals have XY chromosomes but during development the SRY gene responsible for sex differentiation doesn't activate meaning these
02:24:19
Oliver N Houseindividuals have external female genitalia and have present but underdeveloped uterus and fallopian tubes. Puberty will not occur in these individuals unless they are given hormone replacement. Are you pointing to
02:24:29
Oliver N Housethe um XY as the No, I don't I don't appeal to that. I understand that people have I don't feel some people would be some people who are some people who are XY would be classified as women under
02:24:40
Oliver N Houseyour view. Well, no they we're looking at the pathway of development not XY. Sure. So then because even though they have XY there is a pathway because of the lack of the down to categorize.
02:24:52
Jim BobYeah. To properly categorize. Yeah. It's a B it is a binary in the end. They'd be categorized as women. Okay. I mean, I I'm I'm still working out my exact view on the But the thing is the thing is, I know you've you're probably debating
02:25:04
Jim Bobthis stuff a lot. It it is relevant to feminism because we're in a phase now where if everything you thought was oppressive that was based on a binary of male and female, but you call that
02:25:15
Jim Bobbinary ma men are oppressing me. You those people would have to remove the term men and say males are oppressing me only, right? Well, I think that men can still track something about about males.
02:25:28
Oliver N HouseYeah, sure. Like I don't I think it can still track something without it exactly Do you think that there's actually a difference between a female and a woman? I think society there can be I because I I for example I think there's different
02:25:41
Oliver N Housedefinitions we can use for words. So I think that we can consider woman like almost every definition or every word that we use um has multiple definitions to it like that that just is the case.
02:25:52
Oliver N HouseBut the question is when someone says, "Oh, they're a female, but they're not a woman." You accept that? I think that it would depend on what they mean by because woman and man can also be like gendered terms and someone is more manly
02:26:04
Jim Bobor less manly. I think women and men are are Yeah. gendered terms. I think you're referring to like feminine and masculine because you're referring to a reference.
02:26:13
Jim BobBut if someone says it's a construct like completely yeah my criticism of all of that stuff uh you know the Matt Walsh guy started the trend by just saying what is a woman whatever but in
02:26:25
Jim Bobultimately I'm pointing out that there's not really a reference for it. What do you mean like a reference out in space that you can point to that's this thing called woman. The thing that you're pointing to ends up being biologically
02:26:37
Oliver N Houseinformed like traits femininity daintiness. It is well I I I think there can be some ambiguity there but it doesn't mean like nothing exists for example like I don't I I I don't think that just because we can't pin down like
02:26:50
Jim Bobexactly kind of what it like essentially means to be but someone should be able to because if they said and you're not taking this position hard by the way um
02:26:59
Jim Bobis that um if someone said no female is not the same as woman you're talking about sex we're talking about gender that's the common on all the Tik Toks right I asked this question I'll ask you just because I I'm not I'm being
02:27:11
Jim Bobcharitable with you because it doesn't sound like you're you take a really hard stance on this, but just to answer the question because it's funny. Um, can a
02:27:21
Oliver N Housefemale be a transw woman? Can a female be a transwoman? I'm I'm not I think largely my understanding of trans women are individuals who are biologically male
02:27:34
Jim Bobwho identify as as women. So, I guess no in a sense. Well, yeah, because if they were different, it should be yes, right? Like if if female wasn't identical to woman.
02:27:47
Oliver N HouseThe answer to the question, can a female be a transw woman? The answer should be yes. Well, no. Can a female be a biological male who identifies as a woman? No, because she's female. Well,
02:27:58
Jim Bobthen we're reducing, this is my point, is that it reduces back to sex. That's the thing that you're looking at as a reference, not the If it were true that uh neither male or female is equal to man or woman, they they can be swapped
02:28:11
Jim Bobeach of those because they're not identical to each other at all. They're totally different categories. Then it would follow that a female, biological female could be a trans woman. They just
02:28:21
Oliver N Housesimply declare it. So they declare they identify as a male who became like I don't and look and this are the rules. Well, this I and look, I don't I don't claim to be an authority on this and I
02:28:32
Oliver N Housedon't really my understanding of it is I don't and I I I think people who say like sex is changeable like I don't agree with that. It's not. It's not. Well, they're starting to say that. They didn't always say that, but now it's and I I think there are people who are saying like sex is mutable or something
02:28:44
Oliver N Houselike that. I don't I don't I don't agree with that. I think that so so I don't think that someone can say that like I identify as a biological male because that's not a category that relates to
02:28:55
Oliver N Houseidentity. like those are kind of fixed biological facts and I don't I don't think it is I think someone can identify more or less with being a man or being a woman. The reason I asked the reason I
02:29:07
Jim Bobasked is that if you're coming to the table and arguing for feminism and the argument for feminism necessitates that there's an oppression happening and
02:29:15
Jim Bobwe've established that um then once you get into the territory where there's ambiguity of what a man and a woman is
02:29:25
Oliver N HouseMhm. then you don't have much to argue in regards to correcting feminism. I don't think that's true because you're basically arguing is because we can't point to an exact definite line between
02:29:37
Oliver N Houseyou know man and woman or exact definitive point therefore the difference is meaningless kind of right is that kind of what you're getting if there's no distinction soiety's paradox if there's no distinction are you familiar with the society's paradox this idea that for it's it's kind of the same
02:29:50
Oliver N Housething of like the fallacy of the pile in a heap or something like that like how many grains of sand make it yeah like a wave yeah make a heap versus a pile and you don't have to say that oh exactly this many grains in order to say there's a difference between the two. So I think
02:30:04
Oliver N Housethere's a difference between women and men and I don't know if I and I don't think we have to necessarily go down to like an anatomical level in order to kind of I understand I know you're saying that you don't have to but I
02:30:16
Jim Bobthink that if you're going to claim that there's a thing called feminism and feminism doesn't apply to men or males. that's specific to what you're
02:30:27
Jim Bobcalling feminism and feminism is this counter to this other power structure. What's ironic and kind of wild is that the the whole like um you know I guess
02:30:39
Jim BobPeterson would be like the postmodern people are changing all the things you know that is leading people to not being able to argue for the injustice because the distinction doesn't exist. I don't
02:30:50
Oliver N Housesure and I don't look I'm not you know you you have to ask other people this because that's not a position that I necessarily hold but here here's what I would here's what I would say in response just a little bit is when we're talking about like I think it's still
02:31:02
Oliver N Housepossible even if maybe you don't agree that trans women ought to be classified as women in the sense that like I don't how how we ought to consider a woman I think that if people consider them women
02:31:13
Oliver N Housethey could experience a type of oppression that women face because they're well because because they're viewed that For example, here here's a really good example. No, someone someone can um experience um um discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation even
02:31:27
Oliver N Houseif they aren't gay. So, let's assume that at work someone assumes you're gay because you got a margarita shirt on or something like that and they're making you know bad like let's even someone fires you on the basis of that they're like you're wearing a margarita shirt, it must mean you're gay. I hate gay
02:31:39
Oliver N Housepeople. I'm going to fire you. It's true that you could face that would basically kind of be you as I'm assuming you're straight or you straight. you would be experiencing actually homophobia as a straight person. So, it could actually be possible that a trans woman would
02:31:52
Jim Bobexperience misogyny. I understand what you're saying, but there's a truth of the matter though. Sure. Of that of that scenario. That's that's where it gets into trouble. Like for instance, there
02:32:03
Jim Bobare people who were who have this uh experience that they don't have a limb, right? I forget what they call it. Yeah. Alien. Yeah. Alien limb syndrome or something. So, they have this, right? And so if they have this experience,
02:32:15
Jim Bobyeah, let's say I discriminate against a person who actually doesn't have a limb, right? Okay. Over there, I just like don't ask them for help. That's like a form like maybe they want me to ask them
02:32:27
Jim Bobfor help cuz they don't want to be like a burden or whatever. But I don't I discriminated. I just said, "Oh, the legless person. I'm not going to ask them to help me." Okay. There's a person next to him that believes they declared
02:32:37
Jim Bobit so that they identify as not having a leg and they're offended that I didn't affirm. Okay. See, that's the I use that. I I fine. And look, I and I'm going to probably say something that
02:32:49
Oliver N Housepeople on the left. I think I I I I think there is a level of kind of like I don't know if craziness is the right word, but I don't know accepting people expecting people to accept things that
02:33:00
Oliver N Housethey intuitively see as just not the case immediately without question. And just like just if you and if you don't accept that, you are a bigot and you are
02:33:10
Oliver N Housebad. I I'm against I'm don't and I don't think so. And look, I the the trans issue is something that frankly I try to stay away from mostly because I don't it's not that I'm like scared to speak
02:33:21
Oliver N Houseon it because I think that I'm going to get cancelled by the left. It's rather I don't I don't really think that there's much value I can provide to the conversation in terms of like what I
02:33:32
Oliver N Housedon't I don't know like is it possible that biological males can feel like they are women? I don't know. Be I don't know. Be sorry about that. I I don't know because I'm not a biological male who feels like a woman. So I don't have
02:33:45
Jim Bobthat experience. So I think I think gender dysphoria is a real thing. This is what this is what this is what I have a problem with. Okay. Okay. So there are
02:33:53
Jim Bobpeople who say my son feels like a girl. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I I don't Yeah, I don't agree with that. Okay. But then I would ask even the the s person who's young or the person who's old, they
02:34:05
Oliver N Housecould be wrong. I would ask how do you know what it feels like to be a girl? Um, I think people, look, I don't I I think if people like know what it feels like to be a girl, I think especially at those younger ages, kids say stuff that
02:34:18
Oliver N Houselike, oh yeah, I thought I was a I thought I was a monkey. I I told my parent and I think I think it's possible also that if boys are expressing they want to be a girl, they might just actually be expressing I like girls and I like girls. They could be. Yeah. So I
02:34:29
Oliver N Houseso I'm a I'm I guess not of the view that like if a if a young boy expresses anything a desire to be in accordance with anything that is typically associated with the female sex that we should start treating him like a woman
02:34:41
Jim Bobor start start identifying him as a woman. Right? But that's the thing is like um to bring it back to feminism at least you acknowledge in order to have
02:34:52
Jim Bobfeminism you at least need uh a little bit more of a rigid position on categories between men and women because otherwise you couldn't argue that women are being oppressed if you can't tell me
02:35:03
Oliver N Housewhat any of those are. Well, I don't I I I can understand the kind of appeal of that kind of like framework like how how can you be a feminist if you don't even know what a woman is? But I think that it's also true that you can
02:35:15
Oliver N Houseacknowledge that there's there is ambiguity between categories that there kind of is and there maybe might not necessarily always be a fact of the matter that we can like know like I don't know like how many how many grains
02:35:27
Jim Bobof sand does it take to make I don't I think I think because you can point to a some threshold where you might find ambiguity. I don't think that's what's going to inform all of our decisions.
02:35:39
Jim BobIt's more so that we're going to be informed by typical things, right? We don't we like like it might be the case we all see the red, green, and uh yellow
02:35:49
Jim Boblights at the stop sign differently, but all some thresh uh some some frequency of those reflections. But that wouldn't it wouldn't follow that we suddenly have to come up with names for each of the
02:36:00
Jim Bobdifferent ways and we see the yellow for everybody. Right. Sure. So that's why I'm thinking like well my view which is counter to feminism is based on uh what's typical and what's typical um
02:36:13
Jim Bobthat's why force doctrine is argued so well is because you're arguing for what's typically the case descriptively you're not making a claim that it ought
02:36:22
Jim Bobto be that way but feminism if it counters how it actually is I think the the strong statement I make is that feminism is actually a lie it's actually
02:36:32
Oliver N Houselying to women I no I I don't look I I don't I really I really don't see and you know you can try to explain it to me again how you're getting from the
02:36:41
Oliver N Housedescriptive claim that you know because men are stronger they will like always be appealed to with force or like because they have force they will always
02:36:51
Oliver N Houseneed to be appealed to that that is like that that that in and of itself means that women should not have like the same opportunities to certain things. I'm not look I'm not saying that women should
02:37:03
Oliver N Househave equal access to the military and we should completely absolve all standards to include them. Like that's not that's not what I'm getting at. But I think there are certain fields for example like I I don't buy the idea that there
02:37:14
Oliver N Houseare significant scientific differences between the intellects of men and women that justify excluding them from fields like the sciences. So some of the data I was bringing up that I thought was important was that when there are mixed
02:37:26
Oliver N Housegendered teams, it leads to more innovative research, novel research, and it leads to the the research being more influential. And I think that's a good thing. And that's why I think we should encourage more women to be involved in science, men to be involved in science,
02:37:38
Oliver N Housecollaborate together. Do you want the smartest women to multiply themselves? Smartest women. I think people in general Yeah. I think I think I I think it's good for individuals to Okay. Well,
02:37:49
Jim Bobthat's the thing is like even if you No one's arguing women, we should stop it and they stop them from doing all these things. It's just that what's happening is that the culture has reached a point
02:38:01
Jim Bobwhere there's been so much shoved down the the men and women growing up in in uh public school that there's this like equality thing and then and then women should go pursue their dreams and
02:38:14
Jim Bobthey're they're steered away from childhood. absent the parents at home countering what they're they're they're learning in school. But let me just finish this is that if you just said, well, there's a bunch of smart women
02:38:27
Jim Bobthat were exceptions and I think they should be in the STEM fields. And I think I don't think there exceptions, though. Whatever it Well, no, there's there's smart people are exceptions for men and women in those fields. The question I'm having is it even if you found the smartest people, wouldn't it
02:38:41
Jim Bobwouldn't it be beneficial for them to have children instead of Yeah. to not instead No, not not instead. uh up to a point you're going to have to figure out what's more important for a women. Men and women are different in they're in
02:38:51
Jim Bobdifferent positions. The reason is it's not just the force doctrine. It's that women for them to fulfill uh on what let's say want to have kids for them to fulfill on that there is a time
02:39:04
Oliver N Houseperiod. For men there's not as much well I think I think it's would be beneficial to society impose that type of time period. So, for example, I think paternity leave should be something that
02:39:14
Oliver N Houseis more widespread. I think that What about permanent? Oh, paternity. Oh, no. I'm saying I thought you meant maternity. No, paternity. I think men should take time off work to be with their kids as well. I think that's
02:39:26
Oliver N Houseimportant. I think men and women should spend time with their kids in their formative years. I think that's beneficial. So, no, you're just permanent maternity leave. No, I mean, yeah, you don't want women to work. I I want Yeah. I think I think I think there
02:39:38
Jim Bobshould be a massive cuz you think it's all force. And I'm not arguing that. Most of the people I argue with uh who are on my side of the this uh argument aren't talking about force. They're
02:39:49
Jim Bobtalking about reinstating massive levels of of propaganda essentially, right? that that shows the beauty and the joy
02:40:00
Jim Boband the fulfillment of mothering for women to see in opposition to what they mostly see. Why are they seeing that right now? Seeing the opposite. Yes.
02:40:12
Oliver N HouseWhat what do you mean? Because the arm of propaganda is left-leaning and progressive. That's Sure. But but why here? Why is that the push back? Why are they seeing messages of you can be whatever you want. You can go out. You
02:40:23
Oliver N Housecan do because of Disney. Because of Disney. Why are why are people doing that? Why would people I guess on my who are sympathetic to my view feel it is necessary to tell women hey you can have
02:40:35
Oliver N Housea career you cannot center your life around your children and that's okay. It's because before that and I guess you want to return to that is a view where it is very you should center your family. I'm saying that's inevit I'm
02:40:47
Jim Bobsaying that the return to that is inevitable because you run out of people. So yes, we're running out of people. Why? Is it possible, Oliver, hold on. Is it
02:40:58
Jim Bobpossible that people like you and the whole bullhorn of academia and Hollywood coming down on the women and saying, "Go be a boss, babe. Don't be a wife. That's
02:41:08
Jim Bobso weak." Portraying Hold on. Portray, Hold on, let me finish. No. Portraying them portraying these women as dumb, weak, right? Uh uh submissive. This is bad, right? Well, maybe it's a good
02:41:20
Oliver N Housething for women to be submissive. You never hear that feminist argument. Wait, why is that the case? Hold on. Because if women want to be submissive, they can. Why is it missing from the feminist
02:41:32
Oliver N Housemachine propaganda machine that being submissive could be femin empowering? I don't actually think it is. It's Oh, really? Yes. Absolutely. I think that from largely from feminism, what it says is that women should have agency in the
02:41:45
Oliver N Housechoices they make. Here's a really good example of it and I don't know how much we can talk about this because it kind of gets runchy but I think a big um a big part of this is kind of like fetishes and things like that and things like people like so for example some
02:41:56
Oliver N Housewomen you know like to be degraded in that type of sense in a sexual setting. We don't view that as anti-feminist because they're making a choice to do something that they enjoy which is
02:42:06
Oliver N Houseengage in a type of fantasy. However, it's entirely still based on their consent and based on what they want. So in that sense, this is exactly the point
02:42:17
Jim Bobis that feminism uh you're calling it an apparatus that's judged by an ethical paradigm. Right? Now you're talking about your ethical paradigm about feminism. Your own ethical paradigm that's judging feminism would would
02:42:28
Jim Boballow for basically postumous sex with a cadaavver so long as it was consented. What do you mean postumous after death? Like like like if someone consented to their body being used afterwards and there was no harm, that would be fair
02:42:41
Oliver N Housegame. that actually I mean that that kind of is my philosophical worldview. I do take a very harm-based approach and it does have some counterintuitive implications. You know I I think that there are instrumental reasons I've actually had a lot of conversations within philosophy just about this in
02:42:55
Jim Bobparticular. There might be instrumental reasons why we don't want to do that but I don't think there's something inherently wrong with it. Great. So if your if your worldview that's telling the audience why feminism is good
02:43:05
Jim Bobincludes maybe large amounts of companies renting out cadabvers and that being totally fine in the same paradigm. Uh why would what do you mean like you people renting out dead bodies?
02:43:15
Jim BobBasically, you some of some of the worst atrocious behaviors, whether it's after, you know, you a cadaavver stuff or um the rise in pornography with young
02:43:26
Jim Bobgirls, basically one out of 10 women from like 25 to 30 have an Only Fans account because they're told it's empowering. Dude, I I think the reason No, hold on. I think the reason that
02:43:37
Oliver N Housethey're told that it's empowering is because it is it is what it is. It's a push back against Is it empowering? What is it empowering? I don't I'm not them. I don't know. It depends on the woman. Should we How? It depends on the woman.
02:43:49
Jim BobLook, Oliver, what if you're gonna look Look, I'm a new I'm I'm a father, right? You're treating women homogeneous. Hold on. I'm a father here. I'm talking to you to a single model. Hold on. I'm a
02:43:59
Jim Bobman. I'm coming to you. I'm Hey, Oliver. I heard your feminist views. I want some uh want some advice. When should I tell my daughters to if it's empowering to them? When should I tell them about
02:44:12
Oliver N Housetheir option of being Only Fans? Hold on. What? When did we say that it was necessarily empowered? I asked you. You didn't answer. Not because it isn't. Because you can't say should we teach it.
02:44:23
Jim BobIt should be an option for women. It When should we teach that as an option? You know why? You know why I asked this? Hold on, Oliver. Because you just said three minutes ago, you said people like me are coming in and saying,
02:44:34
Jim Bob"You can do this. You can do this." You're a bunch of snakes on the on the on the tree, right, in Eden. So, you're going, "You can do this. You can do this. Think about this. Why don't you include pornography? If women want to do pornography, that's
02:44:48
Jim Bobfine. Yeah, but why don't you advocate for it? I think we should teach it as a legitimate form of, you know, work. Absolutely. Cuz cuz cuz my kids my kids, Hold on. My kids ask me what I do for
02:44:59
Oliver N Housework. They ask, uh, what does other people do for work? Right. At what age? You should You should be honest with them. Like I don't If you're on these shows and for example, like the Whatever podcast, and you're on the show and your kids ask you, "Hey, what do a lot of these girls do?" What do you tell them?
02:45:12
Jim BobNo, I'm not answering that question. Okay. So, I mean I in a sense I guess then you're lying or withholding information. Uh I'll withhold information because I have to protect the my my kids, right? I think so. So So the question is when when mommy comes
02:45:25
Jim Bobhome from work, right? And they have school day, right? Because this is what you're actually advocating for. I don't think so. Mommy goes to school with with kid day and they get to talk about what
02:45:36
Jim Bobthey do for work. Okay. You're totally fine with the mother going to school at whatever age. Let's say it's like fifth grade. No, we're not taking off all her clothes. Jesus Christ. No, no, no. Telling the kids what they do in
02:45:48
Oliver N Houseexplicit detail. No. Well, what do you mean? Why not? What do you Because we No. Why not, Oliver? What do you The girls need to know how they could be liberated. No, but I'm not saying that's inherently liberatory for women. It
02:46:00
Oliver N Housedoesn't inherently liberate them, but it also doesn't inherently make them not li a No, here we go. Let Let me say this. I do think that it is a problem of people being pushed into these fields because it's an easy way for them to make a
02:46:11
Oliver N Housedollar and probably a lot of them don't find it fulfilling. I would agree with you on that. However, I would disagree in making this generalized statement that none of them find it fulfilling or
02:46:23
Oliver N Houseit being a thing. I don't care what they think is fulfilling or not. The question is you're deciding what's best for them over over them. Yeah. Yeah. Is it possible? Is it possible that it's possible for that they're wrong? It is also possible that you are wrong. So
02:46:35
Jim Bobwhen it comes to decisions about someone's life, I'm going to defer to them instead of What about when they're children? What? I'm not saying that you should let people say these things. Oliver, I didn't ask about tell saying it to children. You said when you are
02:46:49
Jim Bobtalking about what other people should do with their bodies or not, you're going to defer to them. I asked about children. What does a What do you mean about children? What does a father do? Of course, you can protect your kids. I'm not saying don't protect your
02:47:00
Jim Bobchildren. Okay. But the thing is if being a father of your home means um guiding and intervening on the path of your child, then the best thing about
02:47:09
Jim Bobabout being a father is is actually the intervention part on what they quote want. Right? I'm not going to tell my kid to be a porn star. I'm not trying to bite that bullet. I I didn't ask you
02:47:20
Jim Bobthat because the the the question is right you are making the claim that when it comes to other people and they what they want to do I'm not going to come in and say they shouldn't do it. I'm not
02:47:33
Oliver N Househere here's here's how I would view it. I am not a woman and I don't I would not view sex work as something that I would want to do because of that and because I don't understand it. I would not tell my kids to do something that I don't
02:47:45
Oliver N Houseunderstand it and isn't. If for example I don't know if for example I don't know I have a family member and they are in that industry and we have conversations about that and they tell me and my kids want to learn about that from this
02:47:57
Oliver N Housefamily member I would I would I would I would want to be present in that conversation so that I can you know okay I think what you're saying is not true in this way and we should have a full holistic picture about this but I don't
02:48:07
Oliver N Housethink that like we should withhold information from like children in in the sense that they should we can teach kids about sex to teach kids about sex and
02:48:19
Jim Boband about you know the importance of consent the importance of that we don't have to teach them to be porn I didn't even say like I'm I'm asking why in your view why wouldn't you say
02:48:30
Jim Bobwhy wouldn't you teach that if you were to say if you were to advocate for a young girl to go into STEM would you do that okay why I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to and this is you're not going
02:48:40
Oliver N Houseto pin me into this corner I'm not I'm not trying to argue that all forms of work like society are seen as like equally liberatory. Dude, it's sim it's
02:48:51
Jim Bobso so simple. Your view of feminism is women having the choice to do anything that's quote legal, right? No, no, no. That's not true. Why not? What do you mean legal? How's that not empowering from your view? Wait, hold on. I think there are some things that are legal
02:49:02
Oliver N Housethat women shouldn't do. Like what? Um I think that for example that people can have moral obligations. So, for example, I would say that um if my if if a woman in my life had a family member who had a
02:49:14
Oliver N Housevery serious condition and they needed a blood transfusion in order to survive and the woman in my life was uniquely qualified because of blood type or something like that, I would probably tell her you should you should you should help them out. You should do that. You should, you know, help them out in that way. It wouldn't be legally
02:49:27
Oliver N Houseit wouldn't be legally they could should not be legally obligated to do that. But I think morally they would have a should they shouldn't do that. No, no, no. What about give me an example of a should something women shouldn't do or I but I I would apply it to men and women. So
02:49:40
Oliver N HouseI'm not making like the women shouldn't do this like because they're women. It's women shouldn't do this because they're people and people in general should not do this. So for example, I don't think doing hard drugs is a good thing. I don't think doing heroin is probably a
02:49:52
Oliver N Housegood thing for most people. Um so I would I would advise women and men to not do that. That doesn't therefore follow from it. That I think it should be illegal for a lot of other instrumental consequences that I think would follow from laws of that nature. I
02:50:04
Jim Bobthink it would make the problem worse. So yeah, there's an example. Wait, is that the same reasoning you you were against? You were against making post death cadaavver sex illegal because
02:50:16
Oliver N Housethere's some other things that might make it worse. Like I mean so this is this and it's it's really hard to have like like like metaphilosophical conversations on these types of podcasts
02:50:28
Oliver N Housebecause what's going to happen is if I try to defend my philosophical view on its merits you're going to blow it out of proportion and be like he supports people [ __ ] dead people. And it's just like no I don't say support. I'm
02:50:40
Jim Bobsaying allow I don't I didn't say it. I just asked you under your view if it's based on harm principle I don't think people should do it. And and here and the reason I would you make it illegal though? What? I think it I probably
02:50:53
Oliver N Housewould be illegal. And the reason for that and the reason for that is because I think there is a very very very high likelihood of instrumental harm. Um for example, I don't think people want their
02:51:02
Jim Bobdead loved ones to be That's true. But unless they made a lot of money and and then the harm was countered in their view because if they're alive. Well, yeah. If the family got together and
02:51:14
Jim Bobsaid, "Hey, grandma's coming over. you know, she's on her way out and she wants to talk to us and she says, "I want to I'm going to do this for the family." Uh, basically give her body out after
02:51:25
Jim Bobdeath for a week to for anyone to rent it out or whatever. And the family goes, "Cool, we'll be rich." Like Hakua, it's kind of weird. I'm weird isn't isn't really a counter to whether it's consistent with your ethical paradigm.
02:51:38
Oliver N HouseYeah. And and here's the thing is I don't use weirdness as a criterion for what I think should be prohibited. Like I don't I don't I don't know. There's a lot of cases of what is called moral dumbfounding where we think something is
02:51:49
Jim Bobwrong but we can't point to a specific reason as to why it's wrong. So yeah, this this is this is weird. I don't I don't know. I'd be like, okay, let's put it another way. Do you think under your
02:52:00
Jim Bobethical framework people can act against themselves and it be morally wrong? Doesn't harm anyone else. Just
02:52:08
Oliver N Housejust all self-contained. I I would say yes, but it's because what they do I don't I don't believe it is like like possible to live in a universe where what you do like self-regarding actions.
02:52:21
Oliver N HouseI think everything you do has an effect. It's like doing drugs. Okay. Oh, should you be able to do these hard drugs? It's like well probably maybe you shouldn't because it will still have these effects. Well, that's that's why I asked
02:52:30
Jim Bobabout the the what I call an epidemic of young girls. And by the way, men are still part of this uh the consumption element of it. But girls think these
02:52:42
Jim Bobyoung girls are being basically trained through feminism first, right? This is this is the result. These are the fruits of feminism. Teaches feminism early on. Uh you're going to have a radical change. You're going to have the the
02:52:53
Jim Bobsexual revolution. You're going to have the drug revolution. And then you're going to part ways with the traditional lifestyle of Christian values and ethics in the home. Then what happens is you
02:53:04
Jim Bobget this mass amount of technology, you know, to express yourself. You run you run head first. Hold on. Fair enough. Head first into it. And now they think
02:53:15
Jim Bobbecause of all of the the the propaganda, the pop stars, they're all they're all disgusting, right? And so now the little kids, the the poor little girls go, "Well, that's how I have to be now." Right? Think no. And that's all
02:53:28
Oliver N Housefeminism, dude. That's not traditionalism. That's feminism. And I think you're doing a very good job at portraying feminism in its worst possible light. Thank you. Where's the good Where's the good one? Hold on. The
02:53:40
Oliver N Housegood one is encouraging women to be doctors. The good one is encouraging women to go into those careers. Why would that be a Why is that better than pornography from your view? Why is that better than pornography? I don't know. So So what why are we
02:53:53
Oliver N Houselistening to then? Well, no. Because look, if a woman wants I don't here's the thing and here's the reason maybe why I'm able to say why I think it would be good for a woman to become a doctor
02:54:05
Oliver N Housebut maybe not to do Only Fans. It's because I can I can conceptualize of the good of me being a doctor. I really can't conceptualize the good of me being on Only Fans. Okay. But I don't know. I
02:54:18
Oliver N HouseI I would I would have to talk with certain individual like certain individuals who were involved in this industry. Like I just I don't know. I don't want to make these blanket statements that we have to choose between women being in the home or being
02:54:29
Oliver N Housesex workers. I think there is a dichotomy. I think there's so much great ideas. I'm not presenting a dichotomy. I'm doing it. No, it's not. If we accept feminism, we have to accept that every single
02:54:40
Jim Bobwoman whenever they you know, it doesn't actually it it's not actually reduce you to absurdity though. you're actually consistent that you would say, "Yeah, uh, teaching young girls that that's an
02:54:51
Oliver N Houseoption to get into pornography would be empowering and in line with feminism." I think you you could teach them that it is something that people do, but be honest about it. And I'm not I'm not a fan of the porn industry. I agree it's
02:55:04
Oliver N Houseincredibly exploitative and I agree that it has a lot of problems, but so like I don't I think there there is a reasons to be instrumentally against the porn industry and how it targets and exploits
02:55:15
Jim Bobyoung girls, but I don't think that that that we should like pretend for like people that it doesn't exist. Yeah. But is don't you ever think about uh internally? I know you said you can't
02:55:26
Jim Bobreally put pinpoint what it is about it, but why is it that even you yourself who's advocating for just like sort of like liberated woman um you still
02:55:36
Oliver N Houseadvocate for more wholesome uh useful because that's what I'm familiar with, dude. I'm arguing only from my worldview and perspective. And the reality is is there's a lot of
02:55:49
Oliver N Housethings that I see. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. There's a lot of things that I see and that I don't understand that yeah, my first response is I don't get that. That's weird. And my initial response to it is it's weird. I don't understand it.
02:56:02
Oliver N HouseI don't like it. Therefore, it shouldn't be something that we allow. And I think that's a bad basis for basing a moral framework. I think disgust is a very poor metric of determining what is good