1v1 DEBATE: Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #14
Date: 2025-05-04
Duration: 4h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_03Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Oliver Ni House. Topic: Is feminism good for society?
00:08:54
Key MomentJim Bob's force doctrine: feminism is performative contradiction. Women can't grant themselves rights.
00:12:23
Key MomentJim Bob: women's only leverage is chastity and childbearing — feminism inverted this power against them
03:16:00
Key MomentJim Bob pivots on bear question: agrees men are dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them
04:14:08
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism is a lie that inverts what's beautiful about women
04:18:05
Key MomentOliver closing: humans can transcend biological impulses through reason. Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Topics Discussed
00:01:49
Opening Statements
Oliver: feminism = equal opportunity not equal outcome; cites Norway/Sweden GDP, Princeton mixed-gender study. Jim Bob: force doctrine, feminism is performative contradiction affirming patriarchy it opposes.
00:17:17
Force Doctrine Debate
Can power equal legitimacy? Oliver: potential force ≠ actual authority. Jim Bob: inductive reasoning (sun rising). Abortion rights as paradox of women asking men to defend right to terminate.
01:38:00
Women's Obligations
Jim Bob: women bear no obligations in feminist framework. Oliver: pay taxes, follow laws, exist as citizens. Jim Bob: asymmetrical and untenable.
01:42:00
Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Oliver: kidney analogy for bodily autonomy. Jim Bob: abortion destroys the very leverage (childbearing) that gives women power.
03:16:00
Man vs Bear
Jim Bob pivots: agrees men ARE dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them from bad. Brian draws racial variant.
04:14:08
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism requires patriarchy, no obligations. Oliver: humans have capacity for reason to transcend biological impulses; Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Transcript
Page 4 of 6
02:56:15
Oliver N Houseand what is bad. It might be uh not sufficient, but I don't think it's entirely in invalid. I don't think it's entirely invalid. I agree with you. But like I don't know like one could uh like for example I don't know like let's say
02:56:26
Oliver N Housesome one person thinks seeing like people who are overweight having sex is disgusting. They'd never want to see that. That just I don't want that's not evidence whatsoever at all that there's anything wrong with people who are
02:56:37
Jim Boboverweight having sex like whatsoever. Like it's not it's not like what like you I don't know about that. I I would I might argue that um that being
02:56:48
Jim Boboverweight or like super obese might be an ethical issue if you hold a view that uh your own body is uh let's say like like an icon of God or an expression and people and people should should take care of themselves. Would you agree that
02:57:01
Oliver N Housealso there are certain at least conditions and body types that it just some some people are are just bigger. You know what I mean? No matter how much I agree no matter how much diet they just they shouldn't be allowed to have sex.
02:57:14
Oliver N HouseAre you are you I'm just kidding. Well, I mean it's if you're going to say that women shouldn't have the right to vote and then you say like fat people shouldn't have sex. It's not too far off from what you women voting is way more
02:57:24
Jim Bobharmful to society. what the things they vote for is this is how men and men this is how I know this is how I know that there's a specific difference is that again you're going to be able to find
02:57:36
Jim Bobexceptions okay you're going to have to just use some charity here what women vote for since like I don't know the 50s since onward right they vote according
02:57:47
Jim Bobto their sort of nurturing traits and what they do is they turn the this is the irony hold on this is the irony of specific examples I I will They they expand. This is the irony. You're arguing against this authoritative
02:57:59
Jim Bobpower, right? The the man coming down, right, on freedom and liberty for women. Women vote in with patterns that expand authoritarian government. And uh
02:58:10
Jim Bobbasically examples you you very big generality. Gun gun gun gun laws. They vote in protection. They they vote for let's say generally safety over liberty.
02:58:20
Jim BobThey they vote safety over liberty. Uh, gun laws is a perfect example. Okay. Um, a lot of them vote uh pro-abortion. Okay. Right. What What is that? Well, that's that's What do you mean that's
02:58:32
Jim Bobagainst them? How is that against them? They're they're annihilating their own kids. What do you mean? How is that against you? I don't think that people should be pregnant against their will. What do you mean they had sex? What are you talking about? I mean, first off, there's a big jump to say that just
02:58:45
Oliver N Housebecause someone consented to sex, they consented to pregnancy. It doesn't No, it does follow. No, it How How does it follow? That follows the same way getting into a car you consented to possibly get into an accident. Okay. And if you possibly get into an accident, does it therefore mean that you should
02:58:57
Oliver N Househave to use your body to sustain the life of the person that you got into an accident with by law? What do you mean? You're saying it's not a person. I'm not No, I'm not saying that actually. No, you can't. No, no, no. You can you can make a bodily rights argument for abortion that doesn't deny fetal
02:59:11
Jim Bobpersonhood. It's something that Judith Jarvis Thompson in her paper. She can't tell me what a person No. Who cares about Judith? She doesn't even know what a person is. What do you What do you mean by that? How she she grants to you whatever your view of a person is. She says we don't even need to discuss that
02:59:24
Jim Bobin the abortion debate. We can have a conversation directly surrounding bodily rights. Really? So why does the doctor uh save the the non-person then? What do you mean the doctor save the non the surgeon, the woman gets in an accident,
02:59:36
Jim Bobright? And a feminist says, "Well, I'm not denying it's a person." No, but why is the doctor obligated to save the non the person? Well, what do you mean if it's not a person? I I'm not saying it's not a person. You're ascribing to me
02:59:48
Jim Bobthis view. Oh. Oh, I see. Do you know you? So, see the person who's about to abort their baby doesn't see it as a person, but you do. So, some people some people don't and some people they're they're very different. They're meant a lot to decide on the spot. There are a
03:00:01
Jim Boblot of aspects of the abortion debate. One of them So so so it's like this dude there's there's two women who are pregnant, right? Same same level of pregnancy. They both get into an accident and the doctor doesn't determine it doesn't determine it's not dependent. It's not dependent on what
03:00:15
Oliver N Housethey think. It's not dependent on what they think. It's not dependent on what they think. personhood is not a doctor. The surgeon saves both of them, right? I mean, ideally, sure, they should. Yeah. What if they decide not to? What do you
03:00:27
Oliver N Housemean? What if they determine that like that's not a baby? So, this is basically the argument of why is uh abortion a double homicide if it's not a person type thing or I mean that could be used. So, think about it this way. If we're talking about this idea of like rendering life-saving care, if for
03:00:39
Oliver N Houseexample, you agree to allow someone the use of your kidneys for a period of time and you you're willing to save their life, let's say you're generously, you're like, "Oh, you know what? this is either a family member or something like that. I'm gonna generously allow this person to do that. And a gunman comes in
03:00:51
Oliver N Houseand kills both of you. They've still done something wrong. But if you were to say, I don't consent to my body being used in this way. It's very painful. I don't want to do that anymore. And you quote unquote unplug from them or something or no longer you cease the
03:01:04
Oliver N Houseconsent. You haven't you haven't murdered them. Yeah, but you're you're including there's another body. Sure, but just I'm not denying that there's another contradiction. I'm not denying that there's another body. I'm denying
03:01:15
Jim Bobthat other bodies have a right to use your body without your consent. That's what I'm saying. The look, if abortion is getting rid of the other body and
03:01:25
Jim Bobyour argument is you can't violate this woman using her body, right? Like the way she wants to use your body. Sure. You can't use the body autonomy and leave out the other body. Wait, you aren't. You're agreeing that there's two
03:01:38
Oliver N Housebodies. It's the same reason you can't be forced to donate your kidney against your will. Even if you get into an accident that requires someone the use of your kidney. You're not denying that two bodies exist. You're saying that one
03:01:49
Oliver N Housebody doesn't have a right to the other body. There's no rights. Okay. I don't know. I don't know why you keep appealing to these things. I'm appealing to societal intuitions that we largely hold. If you want to reject
03:02:02
Jim Bobeverything that we base like society on and go off on your own tangent, then I I don't know how to engage in this conversation. Well, I'm saying like you're assuming there's these you're because you're using metaphysical terms, societal norms, but do you agree
03:02:14
Oliver N Housegenerally people if those change under your do you agree that generally people should not be forced against their will to donate an organ? It depends on the situation. Oh my god. Fine. Well, you were talking about generalities, right?
03:02:26
Oliver N HouseYou're talking constantly about generalities. Generally speaking, should it be wrong for someone to have an organ taken from them or used without their consent? Yes or no? Generally, yeah. Okay, cool. So that's a principle under
03:02:38
Oliver N Housewhich I'm operating on. So once we get that principle out of the way and we can say but a baby's not an organ, dude. The baby's not the organ in question. The uterus is the organ in question and the baby they're not getting rid of the
03:02:48
Jim Bobuterus. No, they're using the uterus. You're renting. You're evicting them. I mean, I guess. So you invited So you invited a person in to your home and then you're like, I just I want to I
03:03:00
Jim Bobjust want to eat the person. Exactly. I'm just going to kill the person who I invited into my home by opening my legs. No, first of all, it's not actually I I think there are and this might get there really interesting literature on this specifically. I think an analogous
03:03:13
Oliver N Housescenario to pregnancy and of course you're probably going to reject this is imagine that you are having lunch with someone um and and you're eating and they start choking and you give them the himlick maneuver and save their life and in the process you rupture you know
03:03:26
Oliver N Housetheir their kidney you puncture their lungs something like that and then they require your body to continue living in that scenario do you think that you have some sort of like you should be legally required to use your body in that
03:03:38
Oliver N Housescenario I wouldn't be opposed to Right. Really? Okay. I mean, I I just I I I would not share that thing whatsoever because you generously tried to save their life.
03:03:48
Jim BobWell, the thing is it would be to me it would be awesome to live in a society where someone would be so willing to do that. I mean, one could argue it would be super derogatory, but that's but that's
03:04:01
Jim Bobfor saving a life. That's what's so so dis different about this view is that we're talking about saving lives and what you would do or what's required which is a totally different um system of thinking than whether or not women
03:04:13
Jim Boblike for instance let's just let's forget let's shift to just this this question because to bring it back to feminism. How is women being able to destroy the baby that's growing inside
03:04:25
Jim Bobof them? How is that how is that good? Oh, there's water down here. I didn't see it. Sorry. Over there. Over here. Sorry about that. Sorry. Would you mind repeating? How is
03:04:36
Oliver N Houseit good for women to yeet their offspring? Because I think women should have a choice when and where they and what situations they get pregnant. I don't think people should be pregnant again. I don't think people should be pregnant again. Would you guys mind
03:04:49
Brian Atlastaking a brief uh pause here? Yeah, that's fine. I want to do a uh we can come right back to it though if you want to just uh make a note on that. I want to read a couple chats here. Uh, we have just, by the way, TTS has been lowered
03:05:02
Brian Atlasuh to $69 TTS if you guys want to get it in. We're going to read a couple chats here. So, we have just Gerald.
03:05:12
SPEAKER_00Just Gerald donated $100. Brian got that deep sultry voice tonight. W Jim Bob because Jim Bobick. But shout out to Oliver for having the
03:05:24
Brian Atlasstones to fight tonight and remain in good faith. Brian, you're the man. Gerald, thank you so much for the uh TTS. I really appreciate it. And uh it's been a good conversation. So, thank you,
03:05:35
Brian Atlasman. Uh Kibbaka, thank you. It won't let me pull it up, but thank for the gifted 20 subs on Twitch. Then we have Dax here. Dax donated
03:05:45
SPEAKER_00$69. Bro, we're arguing about what is a woman while China is building 100s of nuclear plants and out competing us in every metric. This is so dumb. Yo, Dax,
03:05:57
Brian Atlasthank you for the uh $69 TTS. Really appreciate it. We have emotional damage coming here. He says, "On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the manliest man, how
03:06:07
Brian Atlaswould you rate yourself as a man?" Okay. Also, rate your dad who what the [ __ ] who produced such a weak offspring on that scale? Also, can you explain why a woman would choose to get impregnated by
03:06:18
Oliver N Househim to produce useless garbage in Wow. Okay. Do you want to brutal? I mean, you know, I mean, I think it's kind of pathetic. He wasted $100 to to kind of send that in. So, I mean, good for you.
03:06:29
Brian AtlasEmotional damage. He's calling you out. He said you wasted it. I don't know if this is going to spur him on more, but I mean, if if it gets you to spend more
03:06:38
Brian Atlasmoney, then all right. Um Oh, yeah. Are you If we hit We have a super chat goal.
03:06:46
Brian AtlasYeah. If we hit 50 super chats right now, we're at nine of 50. Yeah. Will you put on a MAGA hat? No. No. No. Okay. I should probably remove that.
03:06:59
Oliver N HouseSorry. I thought he was going to do it. No. Is there a There's not a number. Is there any circumstance in which you would If someone was going to die if I didn't wear a MAGA hat? Sure. Sorry. If someone were to die if I wouldn't wear a
03:07:11
Oliver N Housemag I don't know. I'm not going to wear a MAGA hat. It doesn't is antithetical to almost everything that I stand for. Like I'm not No, I don't know. What about for a million dollars? I don't I mean sure we can make these like comparative claims that like like would the good of me getting a million dollars
03:07:24
Oliver N Houseand then donating that money to a cause that I'm in favor of offset the harm of wearing a MAGA hat maybe. But like I'm not going to wear a MAGA hat because you get money donated to your show. Like sorry that's not that's not how that's going to work. I got to remove the goal.
03:07:36
Brian AtlasHe I thought he would go for it. Nope. I thought he would be a sport but um okay we also have let's see here we have Mike Davis. Thank you for the super chat, Mike Davis. He's an OG. So, I'll give
03:07:49
Brian Atlashim a read. My next business venture will be an airline passport rosair. Direct flights to countries with traditional women. Pretty in feminine flight attendants. Okay. Male pilots only. W Passport Bros. Okay. That's from
03:08:01
Brian Atlasthe OG Mike Davis. Thank you for that. Uh guys, if you're enjoying the stream, Jim Bob's going to join us here in just a sec. He just got up to um get a a beer. Is it? You got a beer. Do you want
03:08:14
Brian Atlasyou want a a beer? I'm I'm chill. I'm good. No. Uh guys, if you're enjoying the stream, like the video. You can also support via Venom Cash App. That's whatever pod on those. Also, if you're watching on Twitch, drop a safe
03:08:25
Brian Atlasfollowing a Prime sub over there on Twitch. Join our Discord, discord.gg whatever. We got merch. Shop.Whatever.com. TTS has been lowered.
03:08:36
Brian Atlas$69TS. Um, do you guys want to switch the prompt or um I mean, I don't really know what there really would beat it. Well, one of the ones I had proposed was uh and I
03:08:46
Brian Atlassort of switched it a little bit. Uh are what was it? Are men more privileged? I don't I don't really think that like or are I feel like Jim Bob would just like agree that they are and they should be right. So this isn't there really
03:08:58
Oliver N Housewouldn't be much Okay. dis well I mean wouldn't that be Jim Bob would say it was good I imagine and you would say it was bad but that just goes back to the whole conversation we were literally having. Sorry. Yeah. And that that would just go back to the whole conversation we were already having. So I don't think
03:09:10
Jim Bobthis is a separate question. Yeah, it would probably come back. I mean, I would say men are privileged for good reason. Um because force is privilege. And then um if you said women are not
03:09:20
Jim Bobprivileged, it probably be because descriptively men are privileged. And to correct it, what do you do? How do you correct the privilege problem? How do you correct the privilege problem? I
03:09:32
Oliver N Housemean, it it largely would end up you're you're not denying that certain people are stronger than others. I just think that if you are stronger, if you have certain privileges, if you are endowed with certain traits that are of no fault
03:09:44
Oliver N Houseto your own, I think you do bear some sort of responsibility to help others out and not use that power to hurt others and use that power to advance
03:09:55
Jim Bobtheir interests and not Well, well, well, well, hold on. I was up I was with you to a point. Yeah, the interest, but then you're like, well, not really. like like if it's an interest to for women to
03:10:07
Jim Bobto yeet their potential children, I don't think they've earned the right of men collectively to protect their rights at all. I think we should I think I think we should come down harder on
03:10:17
Jim Bobwomen for yeing their children because they're in a state of luxury like they're they're in a state of absolute decadence right now. What do you mean? I mean that the privileges they're
03:10:28
Jim Bobprovided wholly dependent on men allowing them to to be like this. You're you're arguing, well, men, being that you have force, you should really be nicer to these women who are horrific. Well, hold on. I mean, if you want to go
03:10:40
Oliver N Houseback to the abortion discussion, you are begging the question, which is you are assuming the thing you are trying to prove, which is that women getting abortions is is is a is a bad thing. It's something that we should legally prevent. I think if if it's the case,
03:10:54
Jim Bobcontinue that conversation. Well, if it's the case that we need human beings, it's and we both agree it's a good thing to fix the problem of having human beings in society, then that doesn't mean anything. That mean doesn't mean
03:11:06
Oliver N Houseanything to fix that problem. How does it how does it follow that eating 1 million kids per year is a good thing. Um I think it I will go back to this argument. I don't think that anyone
03:11:16
Oliver N Houseshould be obligated by law to use their body to sustain another person or what did I ask you? I don't know. Ask me again. You asked me many things. I don't You ask me ridiculous question. I didn't
03:11:28
Jim Bobask what you think it justifies that they eat their kids. I asked you what is good about it. What is good about it? It's good that people are not pregnant against their will. That's what's good
03:11:40
Oliver N Houseabout it. People should not be forced to gestate a fetus. Why should they be forced to to uh breastfeed their child at at one week? No, they they shouldn't be forced to breastfeed if if they don't want to take care if they don't want to take care if they don't want to take
03:11:53
Jim Bobcare of their kid, then they can give that child up for No, no, no. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. If someone is not obligated to do anything and not hold on take care of a child. Yes. Hold
03:12:05
Jim Bobon a second. They had a child. It's the first week. It's like cabin in the woods. Like the child can survive by No. The mother has no obligation. You heard it here. mother has no obligation to
03:12:16
Jim Bobbreastfeed her child that she brought into the world according to Oliver. But he skipped to an alternative that he likes, which is to give it up to for adoption. She has no obligation to do that either. That takes more resources for her as well. What do you mean? I'm
03:12:29
Jim Bobnot saying that you don't have an obligation to ensure that a child in your care does not die. It does not mean that you Yeah, but why is why why is that an obligation if your whole entire ethical view is no one is owed your
03:12:42
Oliver N Houselabor? No, no, no. That's not what I said. No one has owed your body. No, no, no. Those are two different things, right? Would you say that there's a difference between people paying taxes and being required to pay taxes and being required to donate their bodily
03:12:55
Oliver N Housetissue to the government? Would you say there's a meaningful distinction there that at least most people would, you know, it's at least defensible? It makes sense. You can tax your money, but you can't really request that I donate a pint of blood. That's kind of a little
03:13:06
Oliver N Housebit too far. Um, I mean, I could grant that they're different scales, but they could they could be closer together than you'd think. I I and and and yeah, one could one could make the argument that, you know, your money your your money is an extension of your labor. I get that.
03:13:19
Jim BobBut but I want to point out something before we move on with this hypothetical is that for my view taxation as it originally existed was an obligation and a duty. It wasn't based on some sort of
03:13:30
Jim Bobrights or or anything like this. It was there was a social contract. There was a social component that rich people they actually wanted. It was it was like a an elite status to be able to help others.
03:13:42
Jim BobWhat happened to that? Well, what happened? Uh people started entering the workforce and and people made more money and then it got uh weaken the middle class. People got rich and then decided they actually didn't want to keep being altruistic.
03:13:55
Jim BobWell, no, no, it wasn't just that. It was that as pe more people got rich because there were less rich people, right? There's there's more rich rich people now than there was before. it was that rich people were were less um
03:14:08
Oliver N Houseavailable and so there was like this essence of like well we're rich this is what we do we take care of the little people right this is great I'm sorry I was not paying attention I'm just this is great I just think it's really funny that that he's spending $100 to insult
03:14:20
Oliver N HouseI'm I'm I'm impressed that he thinks that I'm worth $100 to tell me that I mean I think it's a compliment almost I mean he thinks apparently it's his his opinion is so valuable that he wants to spend $100 to do that Okay. Hey, you
03:14:33
Brian Atlasknow, keep keep them going. You know what? Here's what we're going to do. We're going to actually lower the TTS. We're going to do a $30 we're going to just do a roast session to wrap up the show. Uh I'll let I wanted to maybe do a little rapid fire segment here at the
03:14:46
Brian Atlasend. Just some of your like prompts on TikTok if you're fine with that. We won't like linger for too long, but No. Go. You guys see this vibration? That's crazy. Okay. Uh we do have emotional damage. I'll pull it up. Does this guy
03:14:58
Brian Atlasrealize that he's going to be the kind of man who gets affected the most by what he's advocating for? He will realize it when his blue-haired husband makes him a stay-at-home mom
03:15:09
Brian Atlasbreastfeeding his kid who questions. I do think men can I think men can breastfeed because they have nipples, right? So, if you have nipples, you
03:15:21
Oliver N Houseproduce milk, right? That's how it goes now. Yeah. You just produce I think I I don't know. Look, I don't know enough about the like the science of it, but I at least to my understanding like if you induce certain types of hormones or if
03:15:32
Oliver N Houseyou give men certain hormones, they will they will lactate. It's probably not a no natural like no hormones. I don't think so because I mean the reason that women lactate when they give birth is that there is a certain hormone that's
03:15:44
Jim Bobreleased that you know indicates that I I'm forgetting exactly what it's called I think or I don't know something. Is it prolactin? Yeah, I think those men who try to force breastfeed their child, pretending they're a woman, are just
03:15:55
Oliver N Housegiving their child some sort of puss, isn't it? I mean, I think that's kind of weird. I don't I don't I don't know. I don't What I don't like to do in that situation is kind of like paint a whole demographic or group based on the
03:16:06
Oliver N Houseactions of some select few. So, I don't I don't know. I think there are I think there are perfectly fine individuals who don't identify within the gender binary. I'm not going to claim to have some ultimate epistemic knowledge on what it
03:16:18
Oliver N Houseis to be either of those things, but I don't want to demonize those groups of people just because some people are doing something. Yeah, I don't think that men should be putting their nipples in their kids' mouths. That's weird. Don't do that. But I don't think it
03:16:30
Oliver N Housefollows from that that all automatically men who are uh, you know, choosing to express their gender differently or is deciding to not identify as men are somehow like equivalent in that group. I don't want to I don't want to, you know,
03:16:42
Oliver N HouseI don't I don't think it's fair to paint people like that. We should not judge the the individuals like a monolith. So, well, I mean, go ahead, Brian. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
03:16:53
Brian AtlasUh, excuse me, guys. I'm a bit sick. So, good. Uh, oh, okay. You're you're there was maybe like three or four that I thought were interesting that could perhaps prompt some conversation. Why
03:17:04
Jim Bobwomen choose the bear? So, this isn't the man versus bear thing. Yeah. Do you guys want to have a quick little 5 10 minutes? Actually, I switched my position on this. The impulse from the
03:17:15
Jim Bobpro-male side is to say, "You're crazy. Men can protect you and bears are ferocious and they'll kill you." I kind of thought about swapping and just being like, "Yeah, men are dangerous." That's my point.
03:17:27
Jim BobI mean, I'm horrified by your conclusion, but I guess I admire your consistency. But it's true. Like like maybe it's the right thing to say, "Yeah, women, you should be afraid of men cuz you don't know what they're going to do." That's why you should rely
03:17:39
Oliver N Houseon and hope to rely on good men who can actually defend you from the bad men because you know you can't from the man or the bear. Sure. And I guess my whole thing with that is I still do not see how any of that is contrary to a
03:17:52
Jim Bobfeminist worldview. Well, a feminist worldview is simply this, right? You have you want to get rid of the power of men. Feminism is a movement away from men in power. I think it's a way of movement away from men in power somewhat
03:18:04
Oliver N Houseat the expense of women and their autonomy. I think there has to be some element. If men are in power and only doing like and are being egalitarian in the way that they govern alongside women, that's not like I don't think
03:18:18
Oliver N Housesomething that feminists would be against. It's not that men have power. It's the way that they wield that power that is the problem. Men can't look, it's a performative contradiction for
03:18:28
Jim Bobmen to be solely in power and wield their power to produce some sort of Sims simulation of egalitarianism. What are you What are you talking about? It's literally not egalitarianism. What do you There can be I don't know what
03:18:42
Oliver N Houseyou're talking about. There can be egalitarian outcomes that still give people as much autonomy and ability as possible. Like I don't you think because men hold this power that therefore they will always inherently like I don't know
03:18:54
Jim Bobdominate. It's not what they will do. It's the fact that the necessary component to your egalitarian vision is something that's not egalitarian. It's a literally a necessary component of it.
03:19:06
Jim BobIt's like it's like the thing you that you are arguing against is literally you utilized to produce a fiction of the thing you think you have against men holding power. So then it's not
03:19:17
Jim Bobegalitarianism. If egalitarianism or feminism requires an arm that's uh that is the manifestation of the disparity between men and women, then it's not egalitarian. It's not arguing that we
03:19:28
Oliver N Houseshould have an egalitarian structure of society where men and women are represented equally in every field, participate equally in every single realm. It's that especially in the
03:19:40
Oliver N Housefields where there really aren't relevant differences. I will 100% concede that women can't probably and probably most men actually can't meet the standards that it takes to be a Navy Seal. So it makes sense that Navy Seals
03:19:52
Oliver N Houseshould be men. That doesn't apply to being a scientist. That doesn't apply. So because of that, we should not exclude women from STEM field. You because you would rather have a woman
03:20:04
Jim Bobyou would tell a woman that her she she you would be more happy being in a home with children than being a science. That's not excluding her problem. No, that's not excluding her. That's just telling her and guiding her what what she should do. Even and we've already
03:20:16
Oliver N Houseagreed that even the smartest who end up in the STEM, we would want them multiply because they're smart. We want smart women. And I don't think that those two things are mutually you have to choose at some point of having a career and
03:20:27
Oliver N Househaving children. Of course, I don't think No, I I don't I I I don't think that's the case. No. Really? So, you think it's better for children to be raised by strangers in the public school system? That's um I think that in a certain sense, I do think public
03:20:39
Oliver N Houseeducation is a good is a good thing. Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? I I think Come on. It's not Wait, wait a second. No, no, wait. I dump a beer on my head after that one. No, I don't think Did you just say the public education system
03:20:51
Oliver N Houseis a good simple Oh my god. I agree that there are problems with it and I agree that there are many issues with it. However, the alternative, which is parents educating their children in their own worldview necessarily with
03:21:03
Oliver N Housethere being no counterbalance to it, will lead to people with entiring differing ideologies that never converge. I think people should encounter ideas that differ from what they've been taught. I think people
03:21:15
Jim Bobshould I think school should provide. Do you think pluralism is better than like homogyny and and and like cohesive inroup thinking? Yes. But I don't I don't think that they're mutually excl. You know what I
03:21:29
Oliver N Housemean? I don't think that like I think you can have a I think it requires some of both. You can't have where the whole idea of you can't be so open-minded your mind falls out. But I do think that you should be open-minded enough that you're not dogmatic in your conclusions. That's
03:21:40
Jim Bobvery dogmatic. Okay, fine. Right. If if you're going to argue that Yeah. then like if if I claim that it's like an o anti-d dogmatic dogma.
03:21:51
Oliver N HouseI'm I'm arguing Oliver that dogma is not always bad. Like what if there's good dogma? So, well, I think there's a really interesting argument that John Stewart Mill makes in his thing called um on liberty. And the reason that truth
03:22:04
Oliver N Houseought to be challenged even if we know it's true is because it risks becoming dead dogma that we don't know why it's true. Things that are true, you know, retain their value by remaining true in the face of objections because they're
03:22:17
Jim Bobchallenged and they remain true and they test like traditional families are good for society and women going into porn instead of having children is just not good. I don't think that I think that's
03:22:28
Jim Bobgoing to be Oliver. I think you're going to come back in due time and you're going to go, you know, that that Jim that wacky Jim Bob guy with the gay shirt. He was right and he he actually
03:22:40
Oliver N Houseuh his statements align with John Steuart Mill's view that the truth actually prevails. But that's not I'm not saying but you you were saying dogma is good. Dogma No, I said dogma could be good. Dogma could be good. I don't think
03:22:53
Oliver N Houseso because I don't think that uncritically accepting things is is is really so so crit not critically accepting women's rights. Sure. Yeah. I'm not saying I don't think you should be Yeah. I don't think you should be
03:23:05
Oliver N Housedogmatic about anything. If someone says, you know, I Yeah. Like I don't I don't I'm not selling people that like if a woman says like I have a right to an abortion, you should just like if you don't know what it is, then yeah, research it. What about What about Are you dogmatic? Do you think it's a good
03:23:18
Jim Bobthing to be dogmatic that rights exist? Just generally, I don't think you can because I agree with you that rights fundamentally don't exist. Don't exist. What exists if that what is what is it we're
03:23:29
Jim Bobcalling a right that actually does exist that's not a right? Like like when we say you and I agree rights don't actually exist. There's some sort of construct. What's the only thing we're
03:23:39
Oliver N Housereally pointing to that does exist? I don't know. I think I I mean sorry. I think like I think pain and pleasure suffering. Humans have the capacity to suffer. That is something entities have
03:23:51
Oliver N Housethe capacity to suffer. It is bad when an entity, you know, I'm gonna suffer. Well, it's it's linked to that. I'm going to say force. Okay. Why why why do people I mean I think we can bottom out.
03:24:02
Jim BobWhy do people exercise force? Um well uh they have a worldview that informs whether they should exercise force or not. They have a sense that it
03:24:13
Jim Bobwas justified. It's a type of justified true belief in a lot of senses. Um but um ultimately on the wide on the grand scale of things when we're talking about a society people execute force because
03:24:24
Jim Bobit's either counter to force or it's the maintaining of an order which with the threat of force and I consider those things uh se two sides of the same hand. The threat of force is the use of force. I mean I can keep going why do we care
03:24:36
Oliver N Houseabout order? Well if you want a feminist society I'm just asking you I'm I'm trying to build order. What what I'm basically trying to build it down to is like it kind of just comes down to a combination of like pain like like just suffering. Like if a society is not
03:24:48
Oliver N Houseordered, you know, people would be suffering, people would die, things would not be optimal. It would be suboptimal because of, you know, there would be a lot of suffering if there's disorder. No, I mean that's not that
03:25:00
Oliver N Housemight be true in some sense, but you can have a fair amount of order and there's still suffering. You can have ordered suffering. True. And I think there's ordered suffering. The it the fact whether it's ordered or disordered doesn't make it good or bad. is whether there's suffering that makes it good or
03:25:13
Oliver N Housebad. Go ahead. I do have to move it on. Uh did you want to give your position though on the what's your position on the man versus bear? I mean I I I think my position and I I've stated this a bit in the Jubilee video that I was in and I
03:25:24
Oliver N Housethink it is the case is um I think that the point of the comparison that was made and my understanding of it was it was originally a man who actually like brought it up as an example. Um, and it
03:25:36
Oliver N Houseand it it seems to be pretty ubiquitous that men and women alike, especially with men, if you frame it like with their daughters, you know, would you rather have your daughter encounter a random man or a random bear in the woods? Men almost universally choose
03:25:49
Oliver N Housechoose bear. So, I think that men who kind of get offended by it, it's like I mean, if you're not part of the problem, then why are you why are you offended? You know, you shouldn't be offended that women don't want like bad men. So, I I don't know. I I think we should defer to
03:26:02
Oliver N Housewomen. I also think it's true and this is something that I really hadn't considered that for I mean certain women they would consider things to be there are things that are worse than death you know like being like you know assaulted and and and tortured and you know
03:26:13
Jim Bobwhatever you know a man could do is just worse than being mowled by a bear and dying. So I think in that sense it it could be just I just want to be killed painless. Oliver this is what I ask instead of that I I just move it
03:26:25
Jim Bobforward. I say you encounter a man in the woods and uh you have a sense that they're that they're um not they don't
03:26:35
Jim Bobhave good intentions, right? Yeah. Do you ask for another man and risk that it might be another bad man or a good man? Right. Or a bear. What do you mean? So like like it's man and bear except
03:26:47
Jim Bobyou're already in the instance of a of a man. So you I don't know. I mean I think women would probably just do their very best to get out of that situation. I also reduced it to a uh an elevator and
03:26:58
Jim Bobhow that changes things a little bit in an elevator because there's a ton I'm staying at a hotel and uh twice now I was in the elevator with a woman. Yeah. Like alone and so um this I think it's a little different though because Well,
03:27:11
Oliver N Housebut that's what's that's what I'm pointing to is like what makes the Yeah, but what makes it different? I'll different it might not be different. Let's assume that it's an elevator that you can't get out of. I think it's very different than like most elevators, you know, you get in the elevator, you click
03:27:23
Oliver N Housea floor, and the door's going to open. Like, you know what I mean? Like a woods is like a isolated place. You know, anything can happen. There's no supervisors or people around. And an elevator Are you saying an elevator is worse to be isolated with a man than a
03:27:36
Oliver N Housethan a woods? No, because I'm saying fine. If we if we stipulate that maybe it's a broken elevator or it's an elevator that can like be prevented from being opened. I still think the man it's like you'd be able you might be able to
03:27:49
Oliver N Houseget a couple shots in with a man in an elevator and if you're in a room with a bear it's pretty much over. I'm not so I look and I I think I I I think getting into these a lot of these specifics kind of like misses the whole point of it.
03:28:00
Oliver N HouseBut I do think that it is also important to note that like a lot of wildlife too, it's like usually if you leave it alone, it's going to leave you alone. Depending on the bear, you know, there's like grizzly bears or something like that that are more provocative. Bears of
03:28:11
Oliver N Housecolor uh commit more attacks. Okay. It's just true. Yeah. Good job. No, it's literally true. Yeah. Yeah. But you're making a thinly veiled rhetorical point. What do you know? Yeah. Okay. You're
03:28:21
Brian Atlasreally smart. Yep. Mhm. There you go. Okay. All right. We have a super chat here from emotional damage. He says, "Brian, can you give him this $100 $100
03:28:33
Brian Atlasto this guy to get a shot of testosterone?" Yeah, you can. I bet his views will change if we balance the estrogen content produced by his ovaries. On second thought, don't give it to him. Screw this. Kind of
03:28:45
Oliver N Houseindecisive. I mean, not being decisive. I don't you think decisiveness is something that kind of is like important to manliness? Seem to be kind of indecisive. I don't know how masculine you really are. Okay. Emotional damage. Are you gonna let him Are you gonna let
03:28:57
Brian AtlasOliver talk to you like that? Emotional damage. Uh, thank you for that emotional damage. Appreciate your super chat. Guys, we're doing a roast session. Can I comment on one of these? Yeah, sure. Because I think the 499 was really
03:29:08
Oliver N Houseinteresting. It's like I'm wondering like when people like kind of call like men who they like view who disagree with them as like not real men. I think it kind of enforces this idea that like there is a very gendered aspect to manhood. You know what I mean? Man isn't
03:29:20
Oliver N Houseonly used in the biological sense. like it very often is used to, you know, substitute the stereotypes that people often associate with male and female. So stereotypes are very useful though. Okay. Yeah, that's true. But there is
03:29:33
Oliver N Housethere there definitely is such a thing as gender and it exists socially and like you know what I mean like you can't like if that wasn't the case then no one would use man or woman as an insult because it wouldn't have any social
03:29:45
Oliver N Houseconnotation if which it does. So, thank you for acknowledging that there is a social component of gender that isn't just purely biological. Going to let uh we got some roasts coming in. Here we go. Thank you, Sons of Liberty. Sons of Liberty donated
03:30:00
SPEAKER_00$29.99. Will there ever be a time when we realize what these leftists advocate for is evil. Like evil. This isn't to debate and agree to disagree and live happily ever after with them. They are
03:30:12
Jim Bobevil. Jim Bob. Uh yeah. Well, evil. I don't call people aren't evil. People can be wicked if they know what evil is and they continue. But I don't think Oliver here
03:30:24
Jim Bobum holds a theological view or a Christian view. So he's operating from what he's got. But um yes, I believe feminism ultimately comes from a denial
03:30:35
SPEAKER_00of truth. And I believe that a denial of truth ultimately is evil. Yeah. All right. I think denial of feminism comes down of the humanity. $210. I'll have
03:30:45
SPEAKER_00you come. Did you get new mics? Sounds different. No. Also, does this guy not realize that mainstream equality has literally morphed into equity? Even his definition of feminism is wrong from the
03:30:57
Oliver N Housemajority opinion. So, I mean that that actually is an interesting point that I do want to get into. I'm not really defending the like prevailing view of like I don't know there's there there's this idea that like all outcomes have to
03:31:09
Oliver N Housebe equal. there's this kind of idea within critical thought that like all disparities are a result of some underlying like systemic issue and I actually don't subscribe to that. I think there can be benign disparities. I think differences between groups don't
03:31:22
Oliver N Housealways call out for the evil of the system. Um there can't just be differences. Um and so I would I don't always agree that like equity and as it's like advocated for is the best thing. We shouldn't always strive for
03:31:34
Oliver N Houseequal outcomes. We should subscribe for people to have access to opportunities and not be, you know, denied things arbitrarily. How is an access to opportunity not an outcome because you
03:31:46
Oliver N Housemight not necessarily do the same thing with that opportunity. I agree they're they're very much linked because the opportunities that you have depends on the like outcome of your family or something like that. Yeah. Like if you look at a scenario and you summarize it
03:31:59
Jim Boband you say look there's equal opportunity. if you wanted to produce equal opportunity, the equal opportunity on the table is now the new outcome you produced. So I feel like that, you know, I a lot of that came from like I don't
03:32:11
Jim Bobeven know 10 years years ago rhetoric from the right. You'd get Ben Shapiro be like I'm I'm not for equal outcome and me for half and you'd be ranting that around. But I realized that in a different debate that you actually can't
03:32:24
Oliver N Houseseparate those two. you're always arguing for some type of outcome, equalizer, basically some type of artificial I mean and I don't necessarily think that I would entirely disagree with that. Like for example, I
03:32:34
Oliver N Housedon't think that poverty should be a reason why someone should be and are two different things, but I don't think it should should be a reason why someone receives either a worse education or less opportunities. We should do what we
03:32:45
Oliver N Housereparations against reparations like like specifically like regarding slavery and things like that. I haven't given a ton of thought to the issue. Um, you're a lawyer, right? You're gonna be a
03:32:55
Oliver N Houselawyer. Oh, no. I' I've thought about it. Um, and I think what we should do regarding that is try to alleviate the injustice that's been done in terms of like I don't think we should give like cash payments or something like that.
03:33:08
Oliver N HouseLike I just don't especially because of the way the system is set up and how fast a dollar circulates throughout like low-income communities. If you just give them an influx of cash, it'll just immediately go to the top. So, it's not actually going to solve the systemic issue. Goes right to Amazon. Yeah. So I
03:33:20
Oliver N Housethink instead we should do invest that money more effectively to solve a lot of those further systemic issues than just give people a bunch of money. I don't think that's really gonna do much good. So uh some people in the chat saying the
03:33:32
Brian Atlasaudio has been low chat is the audio okay or am I also just not like sometimes close enough. So low for me too or it might be that I'm not sure. Yeah. Sorry if I'm too far away from the
03:33:42
SPEAKER_00mic. We have Lulu here with a message. Thank you Lulu. Lulu donated $29.99. killed. I teach Bob this was easy for you. Women hate you, Oliver.
03:33:54
SPEAKER_00Really? You want women to go fight wars while you hide in the closet getting fisted? Brian, would you pay for Oliver on a first date? Uh, what? Here, I got
03:34:04
Brian Atlasto play it. Watch what? All right, Lulu. Thank you for that. Um, would I pay for Oliver on the first date? He's not my type. No offense. Wow.
03:34:16
Brian AtlasNo offense. No offense. No offense. It's okay. You weren't either. Damn. But I just don't like podcast hosts. So, dagger to the heart. Um, okay. So, if you guys want $30 roast, uh, moving on
03:34:27
Brian Atlasto the next thing. Uh, Oliver, you in one of your Tik Toks, why men should not be the leaders in relationships. I don't know if that's like your position or like I don't think like I mean one of
03:34:39
Oliver N Housethe prompts in the Jubilee video was like men should be the leader in like romantic relationships. And I think that relationships are fundamentally a partnership between two people. Some people have strengths, some people have weaknesses. I think to say that like
03:34:50
Oliver N Housethere ought to be a one-sizefits-all when people are so different. Um I think just I mean there's going to be some relationships where the man is more dominant and the woman is more submissive. There's going to be some relationships where the woman takes a more dominant role and the man is
03:35:02
Oliver N Housesubmissive. Um and people will, you know, adhere to those preferences as they like. But I don't know. I think I think it reduces the complexity of people so much by saying that like men should be this and this relationship. How do you deter determine who's a
03:35:14
Jim Bobleader? because you're getting you're getting into law, right? So, isn't it the case that um when you like have a partnership in like a like a firm or a company, someone has to take 51 and someone takes 49? I'm not I don't know.
03:35:27
Jim BobI'm pretty sure that's the case and there's a pragmatic reason for obviously legality is that there has to be a guarantor and someone who actually has to say this way even if they're wrong, you have to have someone pushing the button in the end. And I feel like from
03:35:40
Jim Boba secular view, which I assume you're secular, um a relationship, let's call it a marriage, even a legal legal marriage, it seems that you would
03:35:49
Jim Bobprobably um um determine one of them was the 51% leader. Why would we have that? Well, because it's a legal it's a legal um contract. So, no, the marriage is the
03:36:02
Jim Bobcompany in But marriages aren't companies because they're not trying to turn a profit or make a I don't know. Well, they kind of are trying to survive. They're trying to They can be red. They can be red line and black line. So, like, sure. I don't No, I I I
03:36:14
Oliver N Housedon't think there should be a 51% and 49%. If that's the case, if you want it to be that way, then sure, when people get married, they should designate one of those people as it. I don't think, you know, of course, now you're going to make the argument it should, oh, it should be the man. I don't I don't think there's necessarily a reason for why
03:36:28
Oliver N Housethat should be the case. That should be up to the individual in question who or individuals in question who are getting married if for some reason we decide that that should be the way that marriage should. Are you going to be the leader in your relationship? No, I'm not going to be the leader. I don't think
03:36:38
Oliver N Housethere should be a leader. I I I I will lead sometimes. I will. I I I assume that my partner will lead sometimes. What if she says, "I want you to lead." Yeah. Then I will. It depends what you mean by like lead. I I don't I would
03:36:51
Oliver N Housenever want my girl girlfriend to like take the backseat on everything. What if she wanted to? Then I wouldn't date that person because I want someone who's also assertive, who matches my intellect, who I feel is an kind kind of my
03:37:03
Jim Bobintellectual equal. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're this close to being gay. No, I don't. Yeah. No, dude. Listen, everyone listen in the audience. Look, look, look. I don't want to date a man.
03:37:14
Jim BobLook, I'm I'm 44. Okay. Okay. I'm assuming authority by age. Okay. Well, so Bernie Sanders has authority
03:37:24
Jim Bobover you then. He's very old. Yeah, he's he loves choice. Yeah. I think that everyone should have an
03:37:36
Oliver N Houseabortion. That That's your guy. You You voted for him. I can't vote for Bernie Sanders. I'm not a I'm not in Vermont. Oh. Um what was I asking you? Oh. Oh,
03:37:47
Jim Bobyou said that you want an equal intellectual, right? What I'm I'm telling you, men collectively generally are not they're they're more
03:37:59
Jim Bobphilosophical. They're more they can do this. Yes. No, not inherently. No, I'm telling you. Not inherently. No, you're you're basically looking for a dude. I'm not looking for a dude. You are No, I you are reducing you. You're going to
03:38:10
Jim Bobfind a woman who can do everything that that that that provides you. Let's say being a wife, being a mother of your children, and because she's not going to get some stupid ass obscure philosophical [ __ ] school of thought.
03:38:22
Oliver N HouseYou're going to be like, she's not really philosophically. No. No. You You are reducing. Just find the little Sally. you are you are my you are reducing my preferences in a partner to a checklist like oh it has to be this it has to be
03:38:34
Jim Bobthis it has to be this it's not that way and that's not so she doesn't get your uh John Stewart Mill references is that a check is that a is that a actually a little bit I mean I it's um I I I do think it's the case so here here's an
03:38:46
Oliver N Houseexample of it and I think that I don't know this is what's wrong with men today no it's not they're looking for women to be men no they aren't because you're assuming that being smart and being intellectual are manly and I don't
03:38:58
Jim Bobphilosophical and new logic. Of course, it is. It's been historically manual historically. Why? Because they've been excluded from No. No. That's not it. That's not it. No. Even when you even the playing field, right? I think some
03:39:10
Oliver N HouseNordic country even the playing field. It turns out like you just said minutes ago that the disparity ends up being a function of choice. Do you think that people exist in vacuums and are still
03:39:22
Oliver N Housenot socialized into certain fields and thus the entire historical backdrop disappears once you go do what you want? No, generally women are not interested in philosophy and all this [ __ ] Okay.
03:39:35
Oliver N HouseGenerally, yeah, that's true. I don't I don't What do you mean? No, I don't find Okay, cool. I don't I don't care though. Then I'm going to find a woman who sat I I know plenty of women. I have a philosophy. I have a very I have a very
03:39:46
Oliver N Housegood friend who's her um she she's at NYU and she's getting a PhD in philosophy and she's one of the smartest individ. Okay. And so you're just going to find a woman who doesn't have kids who you can
03:39:58
Oliver N Househave masturbatory philosophical conversations. Here's the thing is then you are you are reducing types of intellectual conversation as to that. Look men I'm talking to you in the audience. If you go on a date with a
03:40:10
Oliver N Housegirl and she doesn't get your weird philosophical thing don't fret. I think you're intimidated by women who might be smarter than you. No, it's that's not it. I think it is. Are you intimidated,
03:40:18
Jim BobJim? I think so. Are you intimidated? The woman generally when you say
03:40:27
Jim Bobstupid, they should look at you with a blank stare. No, you want women to be dumb. No. I want them to be interested in what they're valued at, what where they're valued. Yeah. Okay, then you
03:40:39
Jim BobIt's not dumb. It's a It's an disinterest. Okay. You called it dumb. I'm calling it generally a disinterest more manly and intellectual. Well, yes. Men and women are geared toward different things. You just
03:40:52
Oliver N Houseadmitted this just minutes ago. And now and now you're finding what and not inherently. These are entire you are you are basing generalizations are not wait steady. I don't think that women are
03:41:03
Oliver N Houseless interested in philosophy and highbrow things because inherently they are women. I think that society pushes them in a different direction. And how would you know that? Because I've had
03:41:15
Jim Bobconversations with women. Oh, anecdotally, look how look at I see Oliver. If we did a poll for all the women and the answers came back, I'm not interested in philosophy. You
03:41:28
Oliver N Housewould just say, well, you're just conditioned to be not interested. All of us are. I don't think men are inherently more interested in intellectual stuff than women. If men are like, yeah, we're more in interested. And I'd be like, "Yeah,
03:41:39
Jim Bobsociety is structured in that way. That makes sense." No, I don't think so. I think it has to do with the way men think is uh they think in in terms of
03:41:48
Jim Boblike uh like systems and operations and doing stuff and activity and women are geared and I know women are geared
03:41:59
Oliver N Housetoward systematizing people and no systematizing versus empathizing brains. I've heard of this. What study does it come from? It comes from Simon Baron Cohen. He did a not Yeah. Yeah, Simon Baron Cohen. That's a comedian. No, that's Satcha Baron Cohen. They are
03:42:11
Oliver N Houserelated though. Um, it comes from a study. It comes from a study in which he did the primary study on toddlers and he determined that because the boy toddlers picked more masculine things and like and wanted to play with trucks and
03:42:24
Oliver N Housethings like that and the girls Yeah, it is. and the girls wanted to play with dolls and things of that nature that therefore boys are more geared towards systematizing things and because it assumes that toddlers at that point are
03:42:36
Jim Bobblank slates and are not already imbued with all of these gendered ideas. No, that's not it. No, no, that's not the study. The study was a was a was Nordic or Switzerland or one of those countries
03:42:47
Jim Bobwhere he's the one who coined the term systematizing. No, they basically said, "Okay, everyone, we're going to reset. Women get to do anything. We're going to do a whole big big great social reset on expectations of men and women. You think
03:42:59
Jim Bobyou can do that one? Hold on. One year in one year. How do you do that? The women women it evened out that the women went toward for their own free their own free will. By the way, that's even
03:43:09
Jim Bobexample. They no they went if you if you allow women to choose they choose uh fields geared like uh nursing administration
03:43:20
Jim Bobteaching motherhood because their entire life No, you're going to say they're conditions. You don't you don't know because they're entire because that's how our society is. Oh, you mean the history of all of humanity has it geared
03:43:32
Jim Bobthat women are are are geared toward those kind of behaviors and men are geared toward the other ones? It's just societal construction, right? Society has chosen Wait. Society has chosen to
03:43:44
Oliver N Housecodify physical realities into social realities because absolutely you couldn't. Wait, you agree that it is. You just think they also are biological.
03:43:56
Oliver N HouseYou think they're biological and they're social and the social stems from the biological. Yeah, it's informed. Yeah. Okay. And I'm saying that just because something is ordered towards something, if you didn't want to use that word, I
03:44:07
Jim Bobdon't like that word because it invokes this type of arisatilian uh titlotoy. Look, look, it's simple. Look, Oliver, you couldn't use the social programming to supersede the biological presets. Of
03:44:20
Oliver N Housecourse you can. No, you can't. How can you not? How? Wait a second. Men, would you agree, are biologically more predisposed to aggression? Yeah. Okay. Then how can you socialize men so that they don't go on, you know, they don't
03:44:33
Jim Bobgo on mass murder sprees? What do you mean that that's a way? No, the someone men could have a predisposition to aggression and express aggression without going on murder sp and you can but can you socialize men to be less
03:44:46
Jim Bobaggressive? You can try, but it doesn't work. What are you talking about? The the the the public school system is a perfect example. You know what you know what happens when you do that? You then you psychize them and say, "These boys
03:44:58
Jim Bobare being very aggressive. They're they're misbehaving." As opposed to, "Uh, no, they're just boys. Let's give them let's give them rolin and give them drugs, right? Because they're acting so boyish." That's crazy. I I'm not
03:45:09
Oliver N Houseadvocating for overmedicalization. If you're saying you can if you're saying you can socialize them out of being boys, out of being boys, but you're assuming that being a boy means expressing your aggression in a certain
03:45:21
Oliver N Housetype of way. I don't I think a lot of men know a language of violence and this comes back to the force doctrine type thing. Sure. At the fundamental level,
03:45:33
Jim Bobviolence is the way that power happens. Wait, you don't you don't have older brothers, do you? Um, you have a younger sister. I have no biological siblings. Oh, okay. That makes sense. You should have been beaten up as a as a kid. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, from your brother. I
03:45:46
Jim Bobhave three older brothers. This makes a lot of sense why you hold the view. No, it's necessary. Mhm. It's why big families are better is because they beat each other up. Well, yeah. It actually is a pecking order that's necessary for
03:45:57
Jim Bobyou to understand a place in the world. Now, it's not an accident that you're an only child and you hold a female view of the world. Okay. All right. Sounds good. I mean, I'm just saying, you know, if
03:46:09
Jim Bobyou want to dude, you have the cap capacity to use aggression, right? Of course I do. Okay. When's the last time you used it? Use aggression. Yeah. Violence. I didn't need to. No. When's the last time you did
03:46:23
Oliver N House[Music] um I mean someone I can remember this I mean this is an example I brought up in one of my videos was I was on the subway in Washington DC and this guy sat down next to this girl and was being very
03:46:35
Oliver N Housecreepy and inching towards her closer and I stared this dude dead in the eye and I would not take his eyes off him and literally like moved closer to him and he got up and left. So that's an example of me using a male presence to
03:46:47
Jim Bobget this and the presence is the conveying of the potential the potentiality of violence. Right. Yeah. In a sense. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that's
03:46:56
Jim Bobwhat's interesting is that the justice that you wanted to deploy rests wholly on the potentiality of force which is a woman couldn't do. A woman couldn't do that. There are different. Yeah.
03:47:10
Oliver N HouseAbsolutely. Men and women are viewed differently in society. But go patriarchy. Hold on. Hold up. No, there are different ways to resolve certain conflicts. I'm saying that you shouldn't resort to aggression when there are
03:47:22
Oliver N Housemethods of communication that can lead to a more mutually understandable outcome. Like I don't if two people are having a disagreement, is a fist fight usually the best way to solve that? Wait
03:47:32
Jim Boba second. But Oliver, in the example you gave me, your communication was violence is next. So it's still pointing to violence in Wait, I'm saying in some Yes. I'm not saying that
03:47:43
Jim Bobviol I'm not saying that aggression is always wrong or that it should never be used. You're saying negotiation first, but even what I'm saying is that even if you go to negotiation first, right? This
03:47:54
Jim Bobis like argumentation ethics. It's like yeah, you can use that and maybe lower the risk of being hurt yourself, but ultimately you're making an or else
03:48:04
Oliver N Housestatement. What do you do this or else? No. If two people have a disagreement on something, I don't think it has to escalate into violence. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying even if
03:48:16
Oliver N Housecommunication fails. Yeah. You're going to know when violence is necessary. And I think very often men believe violence is necessary and employ it when it is in fact not necessary. Someone
03:48:28
Oliver N Housesaid something mean about your mom and you decide the right response is to go beat the [ __ ] out of them. No, it's not. It's not. That's not You know what I think? I think that's if you want to talk about I think it's men not knowing
03:48:39
Oliver N Househow to manage their emotions. No, I think the management of the emotion is conveyed through the fist. I think that that is an incorrect uh management of emotions that causes much more harm and doesn't lead to any mutual understanding
03:48:51
Oliver N Houseof hey, let's not degrade women in order to kind of prop ourselves up as men. You know what I mean? That's what that type of thing is. You know, making insults towards people's mother. So, yeah, I don't think you should do
03:49:03
Brian Atlasthat. And I don't think you should use violence to solve that. Well, I think you should fight more. Okay. Well, I'm not gonna uh Okay, we're going to let a few more chats come through. One more thing. We'll do closing statements, then
03:49:13
SPEAKER_00we'll get this wrapped up. We have uh Brett here. Thank you for the message, Brett. Brett Shrivives donated $30. Jim Bob W. Paradoxical Man Fighting on
03:49:24
Brian Atlasbehalf of Feminist Mail. Uh Brett, thank you for the message. Appreciate it. We have Kit here. Thank you, Kit coming in in just a moment. I
03:49:33
SPEAKER_00lowered TTS to 25. Donated $30 W. Oliver for debating this guy. Did you guys ever agree on a definition of feminism?
03:49:43
Jim BobUh, pretty much. I mean, I pretty much accepted your term. I I still kind of reduce it to power itself ends up being the the the thing that's really there.
03:49:55
Jim Boblike you can say like oh there's a structure and then there's people in positions of power and administrative positions and all this but in the end it's like a bunch of dudes in a with guns are going to take over. So I mean
03:50:08
Oliver N Houseand I think the issue that I largely have with that is I agree on a base level that's you know yeah you know I I I actually agree with you that might makes you know whoever has it does. However I think that might often has to be combined with some sort of
03:50:21
Jim Bobstrategical element. You know what I mean? It's not it's might might makes feminism. You need to have some sort of enforcement mechanism. I'm not deny. So can you say it might look in the camera
03:50:31
Oliver N Houseand say might makes feminism. Oh you're trying to to enforcement makes feminism. enforcement. Fighting for stuff you believe in makes feminism. Men fighting makes feminism. People fighting alongside each other and men fighting
03:50:44
Oliver N Housealongside women to defend their rights does make feminism. You heard it here. All right, we have Ka. Thank you, K. Also, Kicker donated
03:50:55
SPEAKER_00$29.99. Can you honestly say feminism hasn't majorly caused gender wars, lack of meaningful relationship, and increased divorce rates? I find that
03:51:06
Oliver N Housedisingenuous if you think it's anything else but go on saying sure I can respond really quickly. Um yes you can. I was there's a couple different things there I forgetting now. It's like gender wars. I don't think it's led to more gender
03:51:17
Oliver N Housewars. I think it's led to women um not tolerating shitty behavior and not tolerating being put in a position where they are told what it means to be a woman and that they must adhere to this rigid set of social norms. And if that
03:51:29
Oliver N Housepisses men off and men get mad at women for not wanting to submit to their demands, uh that's not women's fault for, you know, you know, demanding something different. Um and in the sense of like higher divorce rates, this one
03:51:42
Oliver N Housealways is really interesting because it's like, oh, you know, when women make more money, they get divorced more often as like, oh, that's a terrible thing. It's like when women are financially independent, when individuals are financially independent and not, you know, dependent on the other spouse, uh
03:51:55
Oliver N Houseyeah, they might leave if they feel a relationship is unfair, but if the relationship is unfair and they're not happy with the terms and uh they're not financially independent, they don't have that financial luxury to leave that relationship. So, I don't think that's a
03:52:07
SPEAKER_00counter whatsoever at all. Okay, we have Selena. Thank you, Selena. Selena Gomez donated $3210. He just made the female I've dated guys
03:52:18
SPEAKER_00that met all my standards argument by pointing out how he's friend-zoned by the smartest girl he knows. Poor guy. I'm not going to go into the details of that because I don't want
03:52:30
Brian Atlasto. That is not actually what happened. Um, no. All right. Thank you, Selena. And then we have uh Oh, wow. Sons of
03:52:39
SPEAKER_00Liberty. Okay. Sons of Liberty donated $19.99. Listen, [ __ ] If my girl and I are
03:52:48
SPEAKER_00in 1653 America, I'm going out hunting and checking on threats at night. She cleans/organizes the house, garden, and fixes. I'm a little confused why you don't do that now. Natural states of men
03:53:00
Jim Boband women. I'm confused. I want to I want to add to this. This is key. I wish I brought it up more. is that I did mention that what that chat is pointing to correctly saying is that uh feminism
03:53:11
Jim Bobitself in its in its ideals is um a function of modernity and luxury and decadence in the instance where [ __ ] hits the fan. No, no, listen. Just like
03:53:22
Jim Bobgender uh pronouns and [ __ ] the I call it concerns that go with food shortages. The moment the moment the scarcity hits and [ __ ] hits the fan, these things are gone. This makes total sense. I don't
03:53:35
Oliver N Housesee this is a bad thing at all. No, no, wait a second. It's called the fallacy of relative probation. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's this idea that larger problems or larger injustices or larger pertinent needs diminish the severity or importance of
03:53:47
Oliver N Housesmaller ones. There's no injustice. Okay. But then but then you're just making the No, your fallacy is you're making you're making a circular argument. Hold on. Hold on. You're saying these concerns aren't valid because you already don't agree with the
03:54:00
Jim Bobconcerns. No. Even if I granted the concerns, if I granted the concerns that there's there's this problem where where men are oppressing the women and there's all these like accepted expected um
03:54:11
Jim Bobgender norms that are contrived and constructed. What the what the person who just super chatted uh just basically demonstrated is that the argument that that gendered roles are constructs of
03:54:23
Jim Bobmodern modern times or whatever the society is goes away as soon as the society breaks down and you're back in the woods. What happens when you're back in the woods, dude? Yeah, I agree. But
03:54:35
Jim Bobwhat were it kind of advanced beyond that, right? No, no. The point is the advancement that feminism and this sort of delusional take is a symptom of
03:54:46
Jim Bobdecadence and luxury. The moment that's removed, like there's if there's a bomb dropping on some chick's head, so you know, and she she gets bur buried in the uh rubble and someone goes, "Let's help