1v1 DEBATE: Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #14
Date: 2025-05-04
Duration: 4h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_03Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Oliver Ni House. Topic: Is feminism good for society?
00:08:54
Key MomentJim Bob's force doctrine: feminism is performative contradiction. Women can't grant themselves rights.
00:12:23
Key MomentJim Bob: women's only leverage is chastity and childbearing — feminism inverted this power against them
03:16:00
Key MomentJim Bob pivots on bear question: agrees men are dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them
04:14:08
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism is a lie that inverts what's beautiful about women
04:18:05
Key MomentOliver closing: humans can transcend biological impulses through reason. Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Topics Discussed
00:01:49
Opening Statements
Oliver: feminism = equal opportunity not equal outcome; cites Norway/Sweden GDP, Princeton mixed-gender study. Jim Bob: force doctrine, feminism is performative contradiction affirming patriarchy it opposes.
00:17:17
Force Doctrine Debate
Can power equal legitimacy? Oliver: potential force ≠ actual authority. Jim Bob: inductive reasoning (sun rising). Abortion rights as paradox of women asking men to defend right to terminate.
01:38:00
Women's Obligations
Jim Bob: women bear no obligations in feminist framework. Oliver: pay taxes, follow laws, exist as citizens. Jim Bob: asymmetrical and untenable.
01:42:00
Abortion and Bodily Autonomy
Oliver: kidney analogy for bodily autonomy. Jim Bob: abortion destroys the very leverage (childbearing) that gives women power.
03:16:00
Man vs Bear
Jim Bob pivots: agrees men ARE dangerous, which is why women need good men to protect them from bad. Brian draws racial variant.
04:14:08
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism requires patriarchy, no obligations. Oliver: humans have capacity for reason to transcend biological impulses; Jim Bob infantilizes women.
Transcript
Page 2 of 6
00:59:07
Jim Bobbe wrong. I could be a brain in a vat. But I'm trusting my intuitive sense that my senses are telling me correct information. I'm going to I'm going to grant you an escape from soypism. I'm going to grant you your sense data. How
00:59:18
Oliver N Housedo you get a moral statement from sense data? Because moral statements largely are sense-based. I can't I can't give you a You can't really give me moral objectivism either. Wait, wait, wait. My
00:59:30
Jim Bobview is not on the chopping block. You're the affirmative. You're the affirmative. We can get into it, but the affirmative is feminism is good for society. That's what you came today, right? It leads to people. Let's say my
00:59:43
Jim Bobview Christianity, let's just what if it was just terrible for society? it still wouldn't change the the position you're in. You would have to argue why a feminism is good for society. So, if
00:59:54
Jim Bobyou're going to sense data and you're saying, "Well, I use sense data to navigate the world and I evaluate the sense data and murder." It also tells me unjustified killing is wrong. No, it doesn't. Yeah. Why not? Look, why
01:00:06
Jim Bobdoesn't it? Does your eye tell you that this is black? Um, yeah, it does. Okay. So, black has a frequency, a reflective uh aspect of light. Sure, I could be wrong. Yeah. Right. Right. But the
01:00:19
Jim Bobfrequency exists, right? The same frequency of having an intuition on a moral level. No, no, no. Hold on. Hold on a second. The reason I asked about the microphone is that black, red, the spectrum of colors, the frequency of
01:00:31
Jim Boblight that all comes from white, it reflects differently. And so that maintains even if you and I see things slightly different. The thing that maintain what if I say it's not black? That maintains well I would say it's I would say it's a light a dark gray.
01:00:43
Jim BobOkay. Then what if I say that it's white? you could understand. Well, if you said it was white, if you said it was white, then we would appeal to some other people's uh views. So, we can appeal to other people's views. So, if one person No, no. If one person says
01:00:55
Jim Bobthat murder is okay and everyone else disagrees and says that it's wrong, we can appeal to them and say you're wrong. So, in the same way that I would say that that's what are you arguing? So, wait, how is that not subjectivism from
01:01:06
Oliver N Houseyour position? What do you I think that it is as objective as we can get. Oh, so you're saying it's not objective. I because I don't think we can have a 100% certainty. This is what I'm asking you. We didn't have 100% certainty on
01:01:18
Jim Bobanything. Where in the instance of a person deleting another person did you where in the sense data itself the person is a size they have hair they have a shirt on or not? These these are
01:01:30
Jim Boball features of reality that you're pointing to the external world. Where in that are you perceiving morality? Where am I perceiving morality? The sense that I get the intuitive sense that I get out of it. But it's not the sense data though. It can be. Absolutely. I would
01:01:43
Jim Bobsee it. Wait a second. No, hold on. I would see it. Is this moral? Wait, what? Is this moral? Um, having water. This cup. Can you determine this cup? Is it moral or not? Uh, if you were to throw it at me, I could. No, it wouldn't be
01:01:56
Jim Bobthe cup that was immoral. Sure, it wouldn't. But what what would matter about that? So, what I'm pointing to is you said because now we're in metaeththics. Because if you're saying feminism is good for society, if you're
01:02:07
Jim Bobsaying it's good for society, you're making a metaethical statement about the good. I'm asking from your view where what what grounds the good and you said sense data. But the thing is you can't
01:02:18
Jim Bobpoint to anything in the world that occurs as an event and look at the event itself and get and retrieve empirically the good. Why not? Well, you're claiming it. How? Where is it? I see something
01:02:31
Oliver N Househappen and I and I have an intuitive sense about it. Okay. Someone sees something else and they have an intuitive sense that it was justified and you disagree. Okay. Absolutely. And No, wait a second. But that's the same problem empirically. If I say that's white, if I say that's white and you say
01:02:44
Jim Bobhow how are they how are they different? That's not the same. But how are they different? Because this is this is actual sense data. No, no, no. This is actual sense data. The opinion about what this is is not whether or not it's
01:02:55
Jim Bobgood or not. This is ought. This is is this is a guil. This is Hume's guil guillotine. This is like this is like describing things into the good, right? This is a philosophical problem that you
01:03:07
Oliver N Housecan't bridge. No isought I get the isought for why would if you know that of that because wait at some point you have to assert a moral claim that you can't further back up. They have to
01:03:19
Jim Bobbottom out somewhere. So they have to bottom. Then Oliver, why would you even use sensa? Why don't you just say regardless of seeing anything I have a feeling? What if someone described something you didn't see anything and you got a feel wait a second but that's
01:03:31
Oliver N Housestill sense data you hear it from them you hear their story you hear that it evokes a response in you so yeah and then that's a response okay so the same way I see that okay then how do you
01:03:41
Jim Bobargue with let's say a nation predominantly held like a Christian view that women that feminism was immoral and they out they outnumbered you would you just submit no you can't well you can't
01:03:54
Oliver N Houseyou just make fine then yeah whoever has the most power automatically You mean force? But that's a descriptive claim. Of course, whoever has the most power is in holding all else equal. Mind you, we have to hold everything else equal in that scenario because just having brute
01:04:07
Oliver N Houseforce doesn't necessarily mean you are going to win. Well, not necessarily. If someone's better organized, if they have better access to resources, they would still need some aspect of force to but it's not ultimate. It's not like, you
01:04:20
Jim Bobknow, it's we don't add up the who has the most strength and least strength and then determine that's what if you agree if you agree that if you have a feminist view and I have an anti-feminist view, the ultimate descriptor, I'm not saying
01:04:32
Jim Bobmight is right. I'm saying might is. It just is. And I don't disagree with you. So, if might just is, and we both agree that might is is in fact a gendered
01:04:43
Jim Bobstatement, I'm arguing that feminism itself relies on a view. It relies on a a part of reality that's antithetical to
01:04:53
Jim Bobthe ideal of feminism. That that feminism itself in practice, rights, privileges, all of these things you're adding to women, right, in their in their in their life that they are
01:05:05
Jim Bobgranted are granted by stronger people that are merely allowing them to have them. Fine. Then that's the same thing you that's a patriarchy. No, wait a second. No, wait. That's you can make
01:05:16
Oliver N Housethe same argument within a gender. You are separating it into men and women. Why can't I divide men up and say that yeah, stronger men. Okay. Well, then I don't see that's in favor of a patriarchy though. If men look, if men
01:05:29
Jim Bobwin against other men, it's still a patriarchy. I But we shouldn't base it on the enforcement. Oliver, let me just I just want you to concede. If men take over other men, it's still a patriarchy. That's not what defines patriarchy because it's not the enforcement. It's
01:05:42
Oliver N Housenot what men could do that defines whether it's a patriarchy. The same way we are not a militaristic state, authoritarian state just because the military could if they want overthrow
01:05:53
Oliver N Housedemocracy. Well, no, they're allowing it not to be. Sure. So then are we allowance? Wait a second. No, fine. Then are we would it be correct to describe our country right now as a militaristic
01:06:04
Jim Bobauthoritarian regime? Potentially. I would say that rights themselves are fairly authoritarian just to assuming them. Like like for instance, people say often maybe you've argue with the Oliver
01:06:17
Jim Bobwhere you're like I'm totally fine with what you believe just don't force your beliefs on me, right? Have you said that to someone? No, I haven't. You heard someone say that, right? I have. I think it's stupid. Right. Do you agree that you would It's actually probably good
01:06:28
Oliver N Housething to force your beliefs on people. No, if I I think Oh, it would depend on what you mean by force, but I think I I I think saying if if someone believes something, I don't know why they wouldn't want to if they believe it to be correct. I don't know why they wouldn't want to share that belief and have others adopt what they view as the
01:06:41
Jim Bobtrue well not even share let's say let's say I agree with you if if you understand if someone held a belief and they truly believed it not only would they want to share that belief uh and
01:06:52
Jim Bobhave other potentially believe it but meet others who already believe it the next step would simply be why wouldn't they I don't know take positions of of government and legislative uh office
01:07:04
Jim Bobseats and say well I love my view so much and I've I've I've gained so many people around me who love my view. Why wouldn't I just use the enforcement arm? Isn't the ultimate goal here? Like even
01:07:16
Oliver N Housein this debate, even in this debate like pizza or if I love pizza, I want to bring the government into superficial. No, it's not because it's the same similar type of view. You could extrapolate it that far if you want. And and that would be ridicul. Would would you say it's ridiculous for someone
01:07:29
Oliver N Housewho's like, I like pizza this much. I like cheese pizza. I would like everyone to like cheese pizza. If people don't like cheese pizza because I think it's correct and I think it's the best type of pizza. I'm going to enforce everyone to eat cheese pizza. No, regardless if I
01:07:41
Jim Bobwant that, I'm saying that that's actually possible. Yeah, but we would look upon that person is why that's fine if you would be weird. It would be weird. Yeah, but call I I understand we both agree that would be weird. I'm not
01:07:53
Jim Bobdebating whether or not we agree on things that are weird. What we're debating tonight is like the foundation of feminism rests on something that's counterescriptive to feminism.
01:08:04
Jim BobNo. Yes. If feminism look, I'll do it again. Feminism is the movement away from men in power. Is that better than patriarchy?
01:08:14
Oliver N HouseIt's the movement away from men in power. Men men inherently having power. Dominant. Yeah. The dominant collective because there are men. Women being excluded from that. Women's rights is a
01:08:25
Jim Bobfeminist movement. It's Yeah. Sure. Okay. So, if women's rights is a feminist movement away from the movement of men in
01:08:35
Oliver N Housepower, why does women's rights were require the thing that they're opposing? Wait, because you can just because someone has power doesn't mean they're exercising it against you. Like, I don't
01:08:47
Jim BobI don't see like you're you're saying like there's always going to be a man in charge. Therefore, there's going to be a collection of in a society that's ordered that has any kind of law or or say rights which are which are
01:08:58
Jim Bobprivileges or entitlements without any duties. In this case, feminism is a movement away from men in power. Women's
01:09:07
Jim Bobrights is a feminist movement supposedly against this power structure. And yet their opinion against men though. I know, but it's a No, it's not against No, no. You got to follow this line
01:09:18
Jim Bobthough. I'm not saying they hate men or whatever. I'm saying that the actual movement to affirm and defend and protect rights. They're asking daddy. They're asking daddy for an allowance.
01:09:31
Oliver N HouseNo, they're asking society in general. No, society's opinion doesn't matter when the force comes in. Sure, the force does come in. But what the only thing we're talking about agree, but here's the thing that I'm I'm running into. The
01:09:41
Oliver N Houseproblem is you are assuming that men will act this way, that men will do this, that men will act as a collective to enforce their will necessarily. I think I'm saying that I think if I think
01:09:54
Oliver N HouseI think socialization, look, I don't think we automatically tell our I don't think we should and I hope you're not raising your son to say if someone has a toy and you really want that toy, go over there and take it from them to mends what the toy is. That could be good for them actually. You know what I
01:10:07
Jim Bobmean? Like it could be good for you and me as like look look let's just hypothetic generalizing making generalizations all the time Oliver is it possible that there's an instance that of necessary growth of boys
01:10:18
Oliver N Housebattling it out. Sure. Of course. But we're talking in generalities because you're you you're saying that I can't appeal to the fact that there are men that are weaker than women to invalidate the claim that like this forced doctrine. Wasn't the question wasn't
01:10:31
Jim Bobyour question? Well, just because a collective of men could take over doesn't ma doesn't mean that men will take over. They won't. You ever debated anarchists? I have not. I mean, I've I've heard their Okay. I just want to I
01:10:43
Jim Bobwant to put this on you. Pretend pretend you and I are debating against a third person who's an anarchist for a second. We're we're on the same team for a second. And I say I ask them, "Why do you think anarchy is possible?" And they
01:10:55
Jim Bobsay, "Well, because most people are passive and don't want to, you know, use their force and their will to control people." Yeah. And then they ask me, "Why do you think anarchy doesn't work?"
01:11:06
Jim BobI I answer the same exact thing. Because most people don't use force, but the the small group that does that does want to use their force, they will. Why can't
01:11:17
Oliver N Housethere be another group that uses their force contrary to that in support? Are they made up of men? Sure. Some of them can be and some of them patriarchy for the win. No. But it but that's not how
01:11:28
Oliver N Housewe should define what a society is just by who makes up the majority society whatever whatever ordered thing you talk is that fine with you can come up with one that you like better I don't find it
01:11:40
Oliver N Housecan be ordered but I agree that there has to be some sort of order to society I'm not disagreeing with you now would you agree that order suppososes force
01:11:50
Jim BobI guess the threat of force sure I but the threat has to be able to be actualized right ultimately Like if you call their bluff over and over. Sure. Yeah, fine. It has to be actualized. This is what I'm saying and I don't know
01:12:02
Jim Bobhow many time more times I can drive this home is that your vision of feminism being rights equal opportunities. You're basically saying society is in a place where females
01:12:15
Jim Bobshould be more liberated to be in all sorts of different areas. Okay, that's what you're really arguing. You're arguing that society is essentially, which I kind of agree, is an amusement park that's already been built and
01:12:26
Jim Bobmaintained largely by men, right? You're just adding a police element. And what you're saying is feminism is Disney World. They should be able to ride on every ride. And then I go, "No, everyone
01:12:38
Jim Bobshould have access to the rides." I know, but who enforces that everyone has access to the rides? Men. It's society in general. And you are right that it is primarily going to be men. So would you concede? Would you concede that your
01:12:50
Oliver N Housevision of feminism actualized requires something antithetical to feminism? No, it is not antithetical because just saying that men should do the right thing and men should be in favor of these things is not against feminism. I
01:13:03
Jim Bobdon't see how that's against No, I didn't say should. I said, well, that's your other problem is do they have an obligation? But the bigger problem is, is it actually a necessity that men collectively defend women's rights? I
01:13:15
Oliver N Housethink it is it is it is a necessity that society defends the rights of those who are less vulnerable. Keep saying it can't be random people in society stronger. You're right that
01:13:24
Jim Bobthose sure will you concede for the audience then that your vision of feminism requires by necessity the actualization and the threat of stronger people who are predominantly
01:13:39
Jim Bobmen. Sure. Okay. So feminism requires men in power. Feminism requires men to support feminist goals in power. It's an allowance system.
01:13:52
Jim BobEverything is an allowance system. Like I don't we're bargaining with people who are stronger and have more power than we do in order to get what we want. So that means feminism the way you're describing it relies wholly every aspect that any
01:14:04
Jim Bobkind of cherries you want to put on top like any amenities extra extra whipped cream on the feminist boat. Ultimately you're asking and women today are still
01:14:14
Jim Bobasking please stronger collection of men allow us to do xyz right I think it's it's ask yeah it's asking society not to hurt them what do you yeah but that
01:14:25
Oliver N Housethat's an that's an inequality I'm not arguing that women are as strong as men I'm not trying to argue that as a collection that they're that they're equal in every aspect yeah but you said
01:14:36
Jim Bobequal opportunities of course do women have the equal opport opportunity to defend or take other people's rights. If you're talking like all everything
01:14:48
Oliver N Houseall else equal or are we talking like they they can have certain abilities to do that in terms of the weaponry that they have in terms of of the organization of society that they have like I don't I think that you're assuming that we live in a state of
01:15:00
Jim Bobnature which we don't currently live in a state of nature. No, I still think that nature bleeds in. I I know what you're saying that we live in a state of luxury. Are you saying like decadence? A little bit. It's not like it's like brut
01:15:11
Jim BobIt's not like brutality of the wilderness, right? Sure. Because of men because that's men built structures,
01:15:20
Jim Bobbuilt concrete jungles, you know, they they built underground a lot. No, but okay. But a fair amount of that was the only reason we're not in the jungle is because of men. You do realize that a
01:15:31
Oliver N Housecollection of men together without like knowing like how a building is made, you can't just pull like a bunch of men together and say build this building. They're not going to know how to do that. I understand you need engineers,
01:15:42
Jim Bobbut that's irrelevant because if without if you say without the engineer, you can't build a building. Well, there are people who've built buildings without insane levels of engineering. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying to build the society that we have right now, you to
01:15:55
Jim Bobmaintain it. You need brute force. You can't fix anything. What does it have? Well, well, we're back to the leverage. If men can leverage their brute force,
01:16:05
Jim Bobso I I gave the example of voting that when collective of men vote, they're basically saying, I you know what, I'm going to vote even though the alternative I don't want to do the alternative, but the alternative could
01:16:17
Oliver N Housebe that I get my all my friends with our guns and overthrow if we can. We'll start a war or whatever. Why can't women get together with all their friends who are men and do that? Wait, what? You're saying men can appeal to other men to
01:16:29
Oliver N Houseenforce their own rights? Why can't women do the same thing? Men can collectively do that without women. Women can't do it without men. I don't think that's necessarily true. It is absolutely true. There's no women
01:16:40
Jim BobThere's no collective of women who could, if that was true, uh some of what you would think are the worst uh places in in the world in regards to a woman's
01:16:49
Oliver N Houseexperience. The standard middle can't take over the men. I think that they could, as you're talking about, leverage, you know, the power that they do have against that system. I'm not
01:17:01
Oliver N Housedenying that there's biological differences between men and women. I don't see kind of what argument you're getting. I think that women are largely in a sense, many women are complicit in the patriarchal structure that we have
01:17:12
Oliver N Houseand help to uplift it. There is a war. Yeah. But but but I'm saying that that it is not all just brute force. There's an ideological component here. There's women who believe in this system and will back men up on it. I understand
01:17:25
Jim Bobthat. I'm not I'm not saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying if you had all of that stuff exists, they just wouldn't do it. No, none of it matters. Uh if if you don't have force enforcing it, if every woman in society collectively, all
01:17:37
Oliver N Houseof them, which is an impossible hypothetical because all women are not going to agree on something and all men are not going to agree on something. if all women, you know, decided immediately to disagree with all men. Y do you think all men would stand strong in that disagreement and be like, "No, you're my
01:17:51
Jim Bobslave now." Or would some of them be like, "Wow, my wife is coming to me and saying she doesn't like disagree about though like the way the way societyy's structured." Yeah, I would say you know what the men would say what that I would
01:18:01
Jim Bobget all the men to collectively get together. No, no, I No, look, if all the women collectively got together and screeched into the ether and went, "We don't like it anymore." That's basically
01:18:12
Jim Bobevery women's march, by the way. Um, what men like to do from the sidelines in the houses that they built is say, "What are you going to do about it?" Hold on. But then that's just being like, "Fuck you. I don't give a [ __ ]
01:18:26
Jim Bobabout you." Well, in a funny way, no. No, it's not saying we don't give a [ __ ] because the people we're talking about are misguiding and they're misguided with what their their uh their leverage is.
01:18:37
Jim BobSo women's leverage is not marching in the street holding signs until things change. even though uh let's say the 18th amendment before the 19th amendment before they could vote they did have a
01:18:47
Jim Bobmoral leverage. So I actually agree with you that women do have some sort of uh I don't want to call it manipulation in in a pjorative sense but they have the
01:18:56
Jim Bobability back then by the way they had the ability to point out let's say moral uh issues right point out degeneracy point out things that were indecent
01:19:07
Jim Bobwomen have a sense about we call we call them karens now right back in the day before they were given uh the right to vote the 18th amendment they actually used their moral leverage
01:19:18
Jim Bobwithin society because men still uh revered women and their opinions about certain things because they had a specific place in their in their home and in society. Men still do that. You're never going to get all men to
01:19:31
Jim Bobignore the interests of all women. I understand. I'm not saying I'm saying no. I'm saying that without men actualizing whatever the request is, it's just a grievance. I'm not denying
01:19:42
Jim Bobthat. If a society does not follow through on what the grievances are, then sure, you keep Oliver, you keep swapping. I understand why you're doing this. It's fine, but I'm going to
01:19:52
Jim Bobcorrect you every time. You can't swap out when you what we really mean is a collection of men specifically, and you keep saying society to ambiguate it. I'm going to keep disambiguating it because
01:20:05
Jim Bobit drives the point home. If there's a collection of people who think society should be XYZ and they want to actualize it, that is force. They're going to develop laws. They're going to develop
01:20:16
Jim Boball sorts of systems. You're going to require brute force. What I'm saying is that's descriptively inequality. Why? Because in your opening, as you move
01:20:27
Jim Bobaway from feminism, God willing, um at least take out equal opportunities because that's not even true for men. No, I'm not. But I'm not saying that
01:20:36
Oliver N Houseeveryone like because everyone should be given the opportunity to given by who? Dude, why? Don't say society again. But why society? But it's not I don't see how that's relevant though. It is
01:20:48
Jim Bobrelevant. Look, I look at the world through a descriptive lens that it's a pat it's patriarchal and it's hierarchical. I'm not saying it's an it's a ought that might is good. Always might sometimes is good. But let's look
01:21:01
Jim Bobat it as a house, right? Let's say you're the father. Again, God willing, I'm throwing this out there. Oliver the father, you have five kids, beautiful wife, big old house from being a lawyer.
01:21:12
Jim BobOkay. The kids are the women in this instance. I don't just just just it's just an analogy. Okay. Yeah. Okay. The kids are screaming, "I want the house this way. I want They're screaming loud. They made signs. They march every
01:21:25
Jim Bobmorning in front of the breakfast nook." Okay. Okay. Right. You're like, "Sit down. Have have breakfast." um if they equal the the the protesters right in this instance, isn't it
01:21:37
Jim Bobultimately who is it ultimately going to be up to in the house whether they change the house or not? If they change the house if they change they're screaming to change the house, right? Who's ultimately going to going to decide whether it's going to happen or
01:21:50
Jim Bobnot? Sure. The the person who has the power. I'm not disagreeing. So you agree in the analogy, it's a good analogy because the women in society don't have the equal opportunity or power to change
01:22:00
Jim Bobsociety. They need to get the ears of men. They need to somehow use other forms of leverage, but it's never going to be identical to power. What I'm saying to you, I think we agree, men's
01:22:12
Jim Bobleverage is brute force. Do they use it correctly or not? That's a whole other debate, right? Is it just or not? women have the leverage of being the potential mothers and wives and and the the
01:22:24
Jim Bobchildbearsers and the people raising the children. My view is that women's high the the best place a woman a collection of women I'm not saying all of them and I'm not saying force. I'm saying the
01:22:35
Jim Bobbest thing for to advocate for women the truest form of real feminism would be to appeal to the feminine nature and what they're really good at which is not fighting and making people bleed. It's raising children. Why are you Why are
01:22:48
Oliver N HouseWhy is that not feminist? Why are you dichomizing those though? Because you're saying that society is is fundamentally dichomized into fighting and killing each other and raising children. I don't think that those are the only two things
01:23:01
Oliver N Housecan do. But but then why can't women and men I think women and men should pursue other things that aren't just fighting and killing people and raising children because there is so much in between there that both men and women can't do.
01:23:14
Jim BobI'm not saying they can't do these things. I'm saying I'm trying to prioritize. That's why I'm going to I'm going to try to You have to be a little charitable with the dichotomy because I'm looking at urgency and priority. Okay? I'm not saying that there isn't a
01:23:26
Jim Boblist of things underneath that they can't want or might want to do and not do or whatever. I'm saying ultimately for a society to exist you need two thing three things. Law and order, which
01:23:36
Jim Bobwe already establish requires men primarily for the most part. obligations and duties still a little bit blurry on your side of how what provides obligations and duties but then people
01:23:48
Jim Bobhuman beings do you know that we like I know that you mentioned we do we do have a fertility c we do have a a birth rate okay would you I'm not going to blame everything on feminists but would you
01:23:58
Jim Bobconcede that you've at least witnessed pretty high octane um uh propaganda from a feminist view against mothering and
01:24:09
Oliver N Housebeing a mother in the as a requirement. Yes. Not as a requirement. Yes. As a requirement. As an obligation that women have and if they don't do it, they are failing as women. Yes. I have never I have seen
01:24:22
Jim Bobvery I have seen very little of feminists saying you can't have kids. A majority of feminists and people do have children. I'm not saying can't. I'm saying what's being presented as strong
01:24:33
Oliver N Housefem. Do you see mostly mothers or do you see girl bosses? Just answer that. Fine. I And I think the reason we see it as girl bosses is because for so long being
01:24:44
Oliver N Housea woman has been defined as being a mother. So what this is is it's a reaction to the to the prescriptions that have been put on women for so long. What does it mean to be a good woman? You raise a child. You raise children.
01:24:57
Oliver N HouseYou're in the home. It's still correct. It's still correct though. I don't No, not necessarily. You don't Women don't have to do that. Men don't have to. If you want a society, you have to do that. You do. There has to. Do you want a feminist society or not? I do want a feminist society. Then you need those
01:25:09
Oliver N Housethings. No, no, you do, but you don't need to obligate people to do that. People will do it on their own. You don't have to tell them they're not doing it. Why aren't they doing it? It's because they can't [ __ ] afford to do it. No, that's not true. It is. Why do
01:25:22
Jim Bobthe poorest people have the most Why do the poorest people have the most kids? Why do poor poorest people have the most kids? Generally, largely because they don't have access to contraception. They don't have a second because they don't have access to Hold on a second. We don't have a moderator. You just said
01:25:34
Jim Bobcuz people can't afford it. I just pointed a counter. I just gave you a counterpoint that the poorest people are having the most kids. Mhm. Yes. So that's not a good reason. Hold on. Just because poor people are having children,
01:25:46
Jim Bobmore poor people have more children than the wealthy released from the fully liberated uh fem fot, right? The feoids are in Western luxurious countries. I
01:25:59
Oliver N Housewould argue that it's not because they don't have money. It's because they're they have a materialist worldview. Well, no. I think they have a worldview that says you have the option to have children or not. I think no people
01:26:11
Jim Bobpeople who are poor I think largely I think I think you're in college, dude. Yeah, I am in college. Wait a second. Are you saying that you don't hear every from every angle, not just in media, not just in in movies, not just in
01:26:23
Jim Bobeducation. You're not hearing the messaging that says women, we got to fight against this whole like you being at home being a mother thing. You need to be a strong independent woman, right? go out there and be a a girl boss,
01:26:35
Oliver N Houseright? And what I and I don't I don't know what women you're talking to. I don't think and I look I we can ask women this question. When you hear that, do you hear I should not have children or I should not center every aspect of
01:26:48
Oliver N Housemy existence around being a mother and instead prioritize some of my own well-being over that. And I don't think that is antithetical to having a society that has children. People will have children if they if they have the Forget
01:27:01
Jim Bobthe odd for a second. Okay, I'm going to grant you that the ought claim isn't being made. But are you saying the power the power of media in today's age you and me are not going to agree that that
01:27:13
Jim Bobdoesn't influence the way women see childhood? Like I see birth look every sing look dude every single image of childbirth in media for the last 20 years has been like an emergency
01:27:24
Jim Bobscreaming fest where everyone's like it looks like they're about to die dude. And what happens after that? What do you mean what happens? No in the scene. What happens after the screaming and that all that? Well, they they give them the baby and if it's not poorly written, well,
01:27:36
Oliver N Housethey get a shot of uh endorphins. There you go. So, it's not anti- having children. It shows that and then have they love their children and it's a beautiful baby. Fair enough. But when you're looking at the overall propaganda
01:27:48
Jim Bobfrom feminism, right? I don't think you're the representation, by the way. I I don't I don't really think there is a representation. You don't think there's a you don't think there's a central
01:27:58
Jim Bobthroughine of nar um of u of narrative through from the general feminist like even all every every phase of feminism there's a through line there's I think I think there is a type of feminism I
01:28:10
Oliver N Housethink there is a picture of feminism that gets amplified by the media and people who no and people who are sympathetic to your view because of the way that algorithms are structured and the way that media structure you get presented yeah of course yeah women hate
01:28:23
Oliver N Househaving children they view being mothers is inherently oppressive and they yell that. I'm not saying that's not a narrative. I'm just saying I don't think it's actually something that most people and even women subscribe to. I think
01:28:35
Oliver N Housemost women ideally want to be mothers. They just don't want to be defined as childbearers. They don't want to be because they want to be able to have other because just like men aren't
01:28:46
Oliver N Housedefined as as as fathering children. I know, but like okay, like like I don't what what else what else would you define a woman
01:28:58
Jim Bobas in her lifetime, right? I'm not saying all women have kids. It's like they could live into different futures, especially women who can't have kids, but ultimately we're looking at what
01:29:09
Jim Bobwhat should be advocated, right? Right. I'm here. I'll put it simply from your view of feminism. Why isn't feminism pri uh
01:29:19
Oliver N Houseprioritize motherhood? Because because your side of it prioritizes motherhood in such a way. No, no, wait. Because it prioritizes motherhood in such a way that is oppressive. No, dude. It's total opposite. Let me let me tell you why
01:29:32
Jim Bobit's opposite. You want women to be in the home. You don't want women in the home. Let me tell you why it's opposite. What do you What? Let me tell you why it's opposite. Are you really telling me right now? You don't use Let me tell you why it's opposite the vote. Is it more
01:29:41
Oliver N Houseis it more oppressive on a woman to be in the home or to be in debt? Um, I think that it depends first one on who the woman is and what she wants. I think
01:29:52
Oliver N Houseit's more oppressive to force a woman to be in the Yes, you do. Who how do you force a woman to be at home? Uh, don't allow her to go to work. Use the exact force document apparently. What are you talking about? Of course, it's No,
01:30:04
Oliver N Housethat's that's some type of uh that's some sort of emotional coercion. The threat of violence. Aren't we Aren't we all Aren't we totally You say everything bottoms out in violence. You say everything bottoms out in No, no, no. You use not everything. No. When it
01:30:17
Jim Bobcomes to When it comes to right No. When it comes to rights, which you're advocating for. When it comes to when it comes to um engagement, let's say man and woman. Okay. Uh both the man and the woman have different forms of uh let's
01:30:29
Jim Bobsay manipulation, co type of coercion, some type of like if you ultimatums, this kind of thing. Okay. Women and men can both do that. But the reason when you said women are more oppressed when
01:30:41
Jim Bobthey were in the home. Okay. Look, when they started the suffrage movement, right, do you think that it was most women who wanted the vote? No, I know a lot of them were against it because they were against it because they thought it would um require them to also be
01:30:52
Jim Bobconscripted into the military and they did not want that as a thing and that they would also be uh uh subject to debt as well. But mostly the first thing you
01:31:03
Jim Bobsaid. Um, did you know that the the the m minority that was the suffragette movement actually shut shut down and made it hard, right, thwarted these women showing up in a type of primary
01:31:15
Oliver N Housevotes to vote against their own vote? Hold on. I mean, I feel like that's not that surprising though. I know, but how? Look, dude, hold on. Wait, no, no, wait. If if a bunch of Hold, this is going to be a poor analogy, but it's coming to mind right now. Imagine that, I guess,
01:31:28
Oliver N Houseblack people wanted to be free from slavery and they knew that there was a faction of black people who would outnumber them and I guess had been convinced that slavery was good and they tried to stop those people from coming in and keeping them in chains. Would it
01:31:41
Jim Bobwould it be ridiculous for them to do that? I don't think so. I think it would make sense. We don't want these women voting against us having the analogy actually comes back to the force doctrine because these people used force
01:31:54
Jim Boband other techniques to stop the women from actually showing up. You know what they said? Who who did that? Who thece who used force? Well, they would actually physically isn't is it obstruction force? Well, sure. But who was do using the force then? Oh, it was
01:32:06
Oliver N Houseprobably a collection of men. Men? Okay. So then men were the ones who unfortunately were against women having the right to vote because it doesn't matter what women want because they can't enforce. No, no, you're you're confusing me. You're confusing me. I'm
01:32:18
Jim Bobsaying the people pro-women voting shut down the majority of women who were going to come to vote right against their own vote. Why do you understand? I
01:32:28
Jim BobI get it. Then why were men advocating? Why were men using force to stop women from advocating against them voting? There were men on either side who didn't who were like, "What the hell's going on?" But what what I'm saying is that
01:32:40
Jim Bobwhen it comes to the reasoning though, Oliver, the the whole group of the suffragettes, they basically were like they gas lit the women, right? This is
01:32:50
Jim Bobwhat's so ironic is that they said they said, "Oh, these women who are the majority, they're just so docel from being in the home that they're not
01:33:01
Jim Bobthinking right in their opposition to voting. So we have to figure out a way to stop them from opposing it. They were literally looking at the women like the
01:33:11
Jim Bobwomen didn't have the right mind to say no. Uh being in the home is is best for society, best for motherhood, best for children. Uh it's best to not get conscripted. It's best to not hold debt and it's best for men to manage all
01:33:23
Jim Bobthese other things. There's this gendered system that they were they that they were living in. These radicals basically were saying, "No, we got to change the world." Right? It's always this revolutionary movement, right? But
01:33:35
Jim Bobthe thing is, the revolutionary movement, ironically, still requires the thing that they're opposing. They're asking daddy for the force. Fine, I can
01:33:44
Oliver N Housebe against violence and realize that in order to actually be against violence, there must be some threat of violence to back that up. But that doesn't make it contradictory to be against unjustified
01:33:58
Oliver N Houseviolence. Well, no, I'm talking about violence. I'm talking about feminism. No, no, no. You're saying that feminism is a contradiction because they are against men and their power. And in
01:34:08
Oliver N Houseorder to be against that, you have to appeal to men. So in order to be against violence, you have to have some sort of violence
01:34:19
Jim Bobopposing that. Well, no. It is it is a No, no. I'm saying it's actually worse. It's it's like it's like to specifically the feminist I understand the violence
01:34:31
Jim Bobparadox. This is this is more than that. It's it's that that women them because you could have a violence paradox with two groups of men. Right. Sure. But I'm saying that the if you switch it to a group of men and a group of women, the
01:34:43
Jim Bobwomen don't have the leverage of violence at all. So it's not even violence against violence. It's literally violence against uh a bunch of uh people who can't fight, right? They're going to annihilate them. So
01:34:54
Jim Bobwhat the what the feminists need and they still need today, they're saying down with the patriarchy. Down with the patriarchy. The reason that they're chanting is because they know they don't have any power. Hold on.
01:35:06
Oliver N HouseWait. Do you do you deny that like protests can be effective and protest can help change hearts and minds and things of that nature? Yes. It it changes the minds of men and therefore men do that. But like I don't but I
01:35:17
Oliver N Housedon't see how that's like I don't know trying to change the minds of people who have more power. And I agree men have more privilege in society because of that. I'm saying that with a certain amount of privilege comes a
01:35:29
Jim Bobresponsibility to defend those who are more Hold on. Okay. I grant that and I agree with you. From my worldview, men because of their ontology and their nature, they have different duties than
01:35:41
Jim Bobwomen. Right now, even if you find some alternative and some exceptions, I know your brain goes to exceptions, right? I'm granting all the exceptions. I'm just saying generally speaking there is
01:35:51
Jim Boba a pretty clear threshold between what would seem to be the duty of men from both of our perspectives. You're saying well men given that they have the ability maybe they should have the duty
01:36:02
Jim Bobto protect these things. What I'm asking what I'm asking for is the counter um the counter deontology the the what
01:36:12
Jim Bobis the duty and the obligation of the women. If we you and I both agree that the duty and obligation of the man is to protect not men people who are people who are stronger than others and I agree generally men fine but it's not virtue
01:36:25
Oliver N Housewhy do you do this because it's not in virtue of the fact that they're men I would think that a stronger woman would have that same duty that the men has to defend a someone who is weaker than they
01:36:37
Oliver N Houseare regardless of whether they're male or female. So ju you're right that there are differences between men and women that generally result in men being stronger, but it's not necessarily the
01:36:48
Jim Bobcase. Look, you're like 61 2 61. I'm like 5'11. 5'11. Okay. Okay. So, let's say let's say you uh are walk dating a woman who can beat you in arm wrestling
01:37:00
Jim Boband it's kind of funny like sure it's just people know about it. It's like they make funny or whatever. You're walking down the street. Yeah. There is someone being aggressed by a strong man. Let's say it's a a smaller woman who's aggressed by a man and
01:37:13
Jim Bobyou're across the street. Yeah. Does she now have the obligation above you if she's stronger than me? Yeah. So, you send your stronger who just she can beat you in a fight like a like arm wrestling. She's she's beefier than you.
01:37:25
Oliver N HouseShe can break something that you can't. And you're going to say because of her strength only, she's going to you send her to fight off the aggressor. Send her if she wants to go do that then. Yes.
01:37:38
Jim BobWhat do you mean send her? I don't have I don't have dominion over my house. I understand. We're talking about obligations. I'm saying when I say she has the obligation. Fine. Then she would have the obligation stronger. If I'm not stronger than the other person who's beating the person up. No. No. You don't
01:37:51
Jim Bobknow if you're stronger than the other person. But you know that your girlfriend in this case is stronger than you. Did they? She has the obligation. Yeah. How is that ridiculous? If she I didn't say it was ridiculous. I'm just I mean I feel like you're trying to I'm
01:38:03
Jim Bobjust saying I'm just saying to something I'm I'm pointing to that um that whoever's generally stronger you're saying in your ideal society of feminism
01:38:14
Jim Bobhas the obligation Okay. Yes. Okay. I'm just going to grant that generally men have the obligation to defend and protect the less because they are strong. Yes. Because they're generally
01:38:24
Jim Bobstrong. Now um what does wi do women not not the exceptional woman your girlfriend in this case not her most of the women are are frailer they're petite
01:38:35
Oliver N Houseu they're they're not prone to fighting they don't want to fight they run from a fight okay what what is their obligation to society uh pay taxes follow the laws provided they're just like I don't what
01:38:48
Jim Bobdo you mean everyone has obligations so just exist yeah what do you what do you think dude you Look, I have it right I have it written right here. Individuals have the same rights, equal opportunities and so on, right? You're
01:39:00
Jim Bobtrying to even the play the playing field. We agree that men have the obligation. They they are the force. Okay? They're going to determine what ends up being law, not they might have a
01:39:11
Jim Bobwar about it, whatever. Men fight men. If we accept that there's a duty aspect there, this is the biggest crucial element of feminism as a as a general worldview. I don't know if it's a fully fleshed out worldview, but this is where
01:39:24
Jim Bobit really thwarts people that I've debated is like if we agree on that part with the men. I asked you, what's the obligation for women if you think there should be some equal play here? And you
01:39:35
Jim Bobsaid, guess what you said? They just exist. How is that contrary? Women just exist and get all the benefits of society that men provide and but yet
01:39:46
Oliver N Houseyou're going to fight against men being in power. Yeah. How is this ridiculous? I don't expect women to reward me for doing the bare minimum and not oppressing them. Like, I just don't see your like, "Women, please reward me.
01:39:59
Jim BobPlease, like, I'm I'm protecting you. You should really be grateful cuz I could hit you at any moment." Like, what the [ __ ] Femin Yeah. Women should be grateful to men, not trying to tear them down. Tear down the patriarchy. Why? Because I've already explained to the
01:40:11
Jim Bobaudience and you feminism and everything you think it includes as entitlements relies on the patriarchy. You should act. Feminists should be proatriarchy. They're pro- men, not hurting women.
01:40:24
Oliver N HouseThat is propatriarchy. You're still appealing to You know, if you're defining patriarchy, I don't you Yeah. Men in power. Sure. No power. I mean, what's men men having primary positions and not just physical power in in
01:40:37
Jim Bobinstitutions of and they can change that with power with their force? They could and women can't women could change it, too, by killing every one of their offspring. Well, no, that wouldn't that would just change that would just change the number of people that existed. It wouldn't change the fact that men and
01:40:49
Jim Bobmen would die and then men would die out and civilization would so women could kill off. So, okay. So, here's we finally got to an obligation. Okay. Men under his feminist view, men have the
01:41:01
Jim Bobobligation to uphold uh law, society. Hold on. Defend rights, defend the country because they're stronger generally. Women have the obligation to not kill their offspring. Well, women have an obligation not to
01:41:14
Jim Bobkill people generally. The same way men don't have an obligation to kill people. Hold on a second. Is feminism mostly pro- killing your offspring or against it? No. You want to get into abortion? No, I'm asking you a question. Is feminist the nar the the feminist view,
01:41:26
Jim Bobis it is it sold as an empowering thing, a right to kill your offspring or not? Um, I think it's considered a right to have bodily autonomy. Yes. Okay. So, let's talk about it. So if the men in
01:41:39
Jim Bobthis society we agree have the obligation because of their strength collectively to defend rights and I ask you what does a woman have the obligation to do? It sounded like before they have the obligation to not off
01:41:51
Jim Bobtheir offspring and themselves and yet feminism under your own view is men defending women to have the right to to have an abortion. Yeah. To kill their offspring even though you just admitted
01:42:03
Oliver N Housethat their obligation is to not kill themselves. shouldn't kill their born offspring. They shouldn't they they they shouldn't kill people who are outside of the womb. We're not reliant on So when a woman's pregnant So when a woman's
01:42:15
Jim Bobpregnant, a man has the obligation to defend her rights to walk around and do anything and not get aggressed and defend her when she's aggressed by stronger people, right? And the obligation in return is that she can
01:42:28
Oliver N Housestill annihilate the baby. Hold on. So, if we want to get into a conversation about abortion, because I think it's very interesting, no one has a right to use another person's bodily organs without their consent. That's unt when does that happen? What do you mean?
01:42:39
Jim BobThat's how our society structured. Okay, cool. So, a woman who basically um So, a woman who's sleeping and the baby rolls over and and suckles on the teeth. What is that? Informed consent or what? What are you What are you talking about? The
01:42:52
Oliver N Housewoman sleeping, she didn't give consent to the baby rolling over and feeding on her. Okay, fine. What does that have to do with anything? You just then if the woman doesn't want if a woman doesn't want to breastfeed her child then obviously parents both men and women have an obligation to feed their children. And if a woman doesn't want to
01:43:05
Jim Bobuse her body in order to feed her children, then she can find other ways to do so. And if she doesn't want to feed her child, she can put it up for Does the woman who's pregnant uh get the consent of the the fetus when it gives
01:43:15
Jim Bobit her necessary stem cells? What do you mean? Well, it's not an autonomous being. It can't do. Oh, so it just can't decide at all. But it's but the woman is still uh gaining types of nutrients for
01:43:28
Jim Bobitself from the baby. What does that have to do with anything? Well, you're saying no, it can't be otherwise. You said no living being, would you say living being has the right to take it without the consent? Because the baby's
01:43:39
Jim Bobnot capable of giving consent. Well, baby's not capable of giving consent when it's when it's one week old either. Sure. And I don't think you should I guess like So feeding a baby without its
01:43:50
Oliver N Houseconsent is wrong. No. Why would I say that it's wrong? You just said you have no right to violate one's consent. You don't have a right to use someone's body bodily organs without their consent,
01:44:02
Oliver N Housetheir bodily organs. So yeah, so kidney donation, someone cannot forcibly let let's say that you know someone else needs your kidney to survive. Let's even say that you put them in a position where they require your kidney for
01:44:13
Oliver N Housesurvival. Yeah. As a society, at least currently as we have structured it now, it's not legal for them to take that from you without your consent. If you hit someone with your car, let's imagine, and you know because of that you were driving recklessly and now they
01:44:25
Jim Bobrequire you know your kidney in order to survive, the state can obligate you to to donate your kidney to them. You mean men? Sure. Yeah. So again, we're in a position where even your argument for
01:44:37
Oliver N Houseconsent being the ethical norm is still wholly reliant on the disparity of force and power between men and women. When have I ever denied that that's like factually how things are? But there's a difference between how things are and how things should be. I want to get to
01:44:49
Oliver N Housethe should. How do you determine how things should be under feminism? Under feminism. Yeah. Because that's what's being defended tonight. Sure. I'm defending feminism on the view that I think it leads to better outcomes for
01:44:59
Oliver N Houseeveryone. Okay. So, why ought Okay. Who determines what a good outcome is under feminism? Under feminism, I don't society in general. Like I And what do you what are you saying? Like we're trying to appeal to
01:45:11
Jim Bobuniversal moral standards here of like Well, I'm not saying all feminists agree on outcomes. you probably debate other fe feminists, but it's like the if you're coming to the table and saying here's my idea of feminism and here's
01:45:22
Jim Bobhow I think society should be structured from a feminist position, right? Yeah. Um we already agreed that uh society can only be structured in in in a way that
01:45:34
Jim Bobactually creates disparity. It's descriptively so between men and women. Like that's the only way a society functions. But what else are you arguing ought to be the case? Men should not use their power to oppress women. I don't
01:45:46
Oliver N Houseknow how this is so hard for you to understand. What do you mean oppress women? To exert their will on women with force. Just because you're stronger than someone doesn't mean that you should use
01:45:55
Jim Bobthat power to make them submit to your will. Like I don't see why what how does that I mean that seems to be happening more more with men. What do you mean? Yeah. Men should not also kill or
01:46:08
Jim Bobcoersse or cause violence against other men. I mean, women get a vote that not directly but indirectly uh a woman's position uh through a vote could actually um result in men getting
01:46:21
Jim Bobdrafted. Sure. I'm against the draft. Okay. I'm against the draft entirely. I think it violates the 13th amendment's clause of involuntary servitude. Okay. But you would Yeah. Okay. So, you would agree that that was that would be a violation of of the man in that case and
01:46:33
Jim Bobit shouldn't exist. The draft shouldn't exist. Exist. Okay. But that here's the thing is like if you're can you think of an instance where the draft should exist? No. Really? I don't. So I think
01:46:43
Oliver N Houseyou can always incentivize people to fulfill that basic need. So for example, if people don't want to go to war, um pay them more. Um have have it so that when they come back from war, they are
01:46:55
Jim Bobprovided better. Maybe it would be less of an incentive to go to war if you don't know whether you're going to have a fighting force. Honestly, I think that the scenarios in which to draft the dire situation that a draft would be
01:47:06
Jim Bobnecessary. It was Vietnam. I don't think money would be the the last one was Vietnam though. Like that was a war that was a terrible decision to go to war over. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you don't if it's I mean, I'm fine with you just
01:47:19
Jim Bobopposing the draft because some people go they basically ask, well, you know, when is you know, where's the disparity in equality between men and women? you know, descriptively. I've already established that, but that's one thing
01:47:31
Jim Bobthat we can always go to where they're like, well, well, then make it legal to draft women. And we're arguing you shouldn't draft anyone. Like, we we shouldn't want I I don't want that either. Now, let's talk about um um
01:47:42
Jim Bobstandards like if equal, do you agree that when you argue opportunity, we are you agree that uh opportunities require capability, right? Sure. And if some people can't meet a
01:47:56
Oliver N Housestandard then yeah they should not be in that position. Should people lower the standards for equality? Uh lower the standards let's say firefighter, police officer, Navy Seals. No, I don't think so. You should not lower standards.
01:48:06
Oliver N HouseHowever, it doesn't there there is not a standard of brute strength in order to occupy most positions in society that aren't enforcementbased. Yeah, I wouldn't I'm not arguing the counter to
01:48:17
Jim Bobfeminism isn't necessarily arguing keep women out of things by force. It's it's that it's countering one a descriptive claim that's false that assumes women
01:48:28
Jim Bobhave the same uh duties or even power as men. Um and two the um what should the question is a should versus a should. Should we prioritize women uh doing what
01:48:42
Oliver N Housethey're really good at? Well, if it's the case that women are not homogeneous grouping women, but I'm going to reject that every time. If it's the case that women are mostly good at certain things, I
01:48:54
Oliver N Housedon't I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think women are inherently better at taking care of children than men. No, they're not inherently better. No,
01:49:06
Jim Bobmen can do men can do that too. Well, I'm not saying it's not capability like one or the other. It's that is that is there a better scenario? Is it a better
01:49:16
Oliver N Housescenario that men are put in certain um no duty positions than than others than than women? Is it better that we have a fighting force that is comprised of these strongest individuals? Yes. And if
01:49:30
Jim Bobit turns out that the strongest individuals because of facts of biology are overwhelmingly male, then sure. Here's the thing is if if the men we agree that if collectively men are best
01:49:42
Jim Bobused um to be like the the general enforcement arm in one aspect. Sure. Yeah. But what's that for women? Because I'm not not even talking about duties anymore. What is that for women? There
01:49:54
Jim Bobisn't necessarily symmetry here. You're really not going to say that perhaps the equal um the equal parallel to men raising kids? No. Okay. I'm not. So So you're okay. I don't think it's the
01:50:06
Jim Bobcase. Women are not I just I just don't understand how from your feminist view that you're defending. I'm not I just don't understand how you could look at what's needed right now um as far as
01:50:18
Jim Bobhuman beings and looking at it and and obviously coming to the conclusion that what's demonstrated in the past is that women in the home raising kids is a
01:50:28
Jim Bobfunctional let's even go pragmatism. It's extremely pragmatic for women in their nurturing uh in their nurturing trait to they're not more nurturing than men inherently biologically. No.
01:50:41
Jim BobCollectively uh because society socializes in such a way. Yes. Oh, they're socialized to do that? Yes. So women weren't nurturing before societies had like I don't know modern propaganda
01:50:51
Jim Boband all stuff. Hold on. Societal norms have existed without mass media. Wait a second. just happens to be the case that almost every society that we look at happens to construct women to be
01:51:04
Oliver N Housenurturing mothers. So I think the reason that women are often given that role is because of the proximity to children that they have considering they grow them. I'm not but that that it's not that that ought to be the case just
01:51:15
Jim Bobbecause of that. I didn't say ought. I said is it better? No, not necessarily. Why can't men men could raise the kids too? Okay. So, do you think that a woman has a child, it's better for her to stay in the home or do an equal swap with the
01:51:28
Jim Bobwith the Let's say, let's say a husband and a wife, Hold on, hold on. Let's say a man and a wife have the same exact skill and ability to to work a job. Yes.
01:51:38
Jim BobA woman just has a child, right? Yes. All right. And you're saying it's an eitheror situation that he goes that she goes back to the job and he stay home. Correct. What whatever is whatever is
01:51:49
Oliver N Housebest for their preferences. If if the man wants to work, um it would also depend on who's who is better at raising a child. And I don't think it's always the case that the woman would be better. There are some men that are more nurturing than women. So if the men man is better capable of nurturing that
01:52:02
Oliver N Housechild, then the man should be the one to stay home. Well, how would you know? I mean, what if it what if the preference is to do it, but he's not as good? Then I think that there there's always going to be a trade-off between what's best for the child and what's best for the
01:52:14
Oliver N Houseparents. I don't think that always we must do everything that is completely in the best interest of our children to the utmost degree. Okay. I'm going to ask you a hypothetical. How would you know that your view of feminism was realized?
01:52:27
Oliver N HouseWhat do you mean realized? You know, like actualized like right now, for instance, you agree if there weren't people calling to abolish uh women having the right to vote. That would be a good start. Abolish the Yeah, but Yeah. But I we
01:52:40
Jim Bobalready went over this like to get the right to vote they had to suppress and silence women. Okay. So what if women what if women collectively said we don't want Hold on. Hold on. What if women cuz
01:52:52
Jim Bobyou're talking about what what your standard right now is that the actualization one one instance of actualizing your view of feminism is that um women uh outright have the right
01:53:03
Jim Bobto vote. What if women went against you and they said I don't want the right to vote. as a total then sure then I don't if if if collectively women all come together and say they don't want the right to vote I'm not going to stand in
01:53:15
Jim Bobtheir way there there's a reason we don't we don't there's a reason we don't see that right now okay so why why would then you be against a bunch of men getting together and saying that women don't have the right to vote because
01:53:27
Jim Bobthey're taking away rights that aren't their own wait no hold on if there's a group of women who got together and they dominated uh collective there was like 75 80% of Then hold on, hold on, then
01:53:39
Oliver N Housemaybe hold on. Then maybe I misspoke. I don't think that I Yeah, then then I I don't think that people should be able to like vote away rights of others. Yeah, but why should why if you don't think you should vote away the rights of
01:53:51
Jim Bobothers, why do you think you should be able to vote in the rights of others? What do you mean? Those things could change it. You had a right to you had a right to own a slave at one point. You're saying you don't think you should have vote away the right for something. Hold on. You don't believe that? Hold
01:54:04
Jim Bobon. The right to own a slave and the right to vote are two very different. A right is simply an allowance that's given to people as an entitlement with no obligation that groups of men with
01:54:15
Oliver N Houseguns allow or don't allow. So was there a time where technically you had the right to own another person? Are we are we talking morally? Are we talking like descriptively? Sure. If you want to if you want to talk about rights in the
01:54:26
Oliver N Housesense of what was the case and and was just the case then and yeah, sure. There was a there was a society recognized right to own another human. But you said you said you don't have the right to
01:54:37
Oliver N Housetake someone's right away. Fine. Then if you want to argue that I'm being sloppy with language, that's fine. Then sure. Then what's happening though? If people do something and they take it away and they call it a right, then they call it a right. I can't tell them not to call
01:54:50
Jim Bobit something. I can still say what they're doing is wrong. They shouldn't do that. Understand? Yeah, Oliver, I understand you're you're basically bound to the language we have, but if the thing
01:55:01
Oliver N Houseyou're appealing to is rights and we can point to rights that are unjust, I'm not sure what exactly you're rights, then I'm I'm appealing to people's individual autonomy and well-being to make decisions about their own lives. I don't
01:55:12
Jim BobI don't think other people should be the dictators of what other people's lives are. Yeah. But if if you don't think that other people should dictate how other people's lives are, if there's a
01:55:24
Jim Bobwhole group of people who don't agree that rights exist, you're going to count you're going to contradict that, too. What do you mean? If there's a bunch of people right now in the US who say, "I
01:55:35
Jim Bobdon't believe rights exist." Okay? You are going to be on the side that says, "No, we're actually going to still use force." And you could try to behave as though rights don't exist and you could believe that, but that's actually we're
01:55:48
Oliver N Housegoing to force the belief of rights onto you, right? Yeah. We're going to force good things good things over bad things. Cool. If I think it's a good thing, like this is the thing. This Yeah, you're right. It's just a whoever has the most
01:55:58
Jim Bobpower, dude. If your entire ethical paradigm just reduced here right now in the moment to whoever has the power and their preferences rule out, as long as
01:56:08
Jim Bobyou have the power to rule it out, you agree that under even your own standard that if a bunch of men got together and uh went back on giving the women the right and they thought it was good, that
01:56:20
Jim Bobthey could argue that it was good, it was even better for women than than they thought, then you wouldn't really have uh it's totally consistent with your ethical position. Right. Sure. I guess I'm not fully
01:56:32
Jim Bobunderstanding. I'm I'm asking whether it's consistent under your ethical system where the majority of people decide that what's best is well, we're going to actually go back on the 19th amendment. And women don't realize it at
01:56:45
Oliver N Housethe moment, right? But it's actually going to be better for them. It's going to it's going to make them safer. It's going to make them happier. If they really thought that, I think they're wrong. I I don't I I don't think we should be infantilizing people on the basis that men know what's best for
01:56:56
Jim Bobwomen. I think that's just not No, I didn't say that that it is like it could be or couldn't be. I'm just saying the activity of doing it is consistent with your ethical paradigm. That it wait that it would happen or that it should happen? No, that it could. It wouldn't
01:57:10
Jim Bobbe counter to your view. What do you mean counter to my descriptive view or normative view? Your standard, your normative view is this. If a a bunch of women decide we they don't want the vote and they overpower overpop populate the
01:57:23
Oliver N Housewomen who think they want the vote, they should then fine. No. Then they shouldn't vote. If they don't want to vote, don't vote. No. No. They don't even want other women to vote. Well, no. Then why why are you trying to take away other people's ability to vote? Well,
01:57:35
Oliver N Houseno. They just want they believe that it's not a good thing. Okay, then don't vote. I don't I don't I I don't care if you don't think it's a good thing. I don't know why. If someone is subject to the laws, if someone is subject to how they are being governed, then they