Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Hater | Whatever Debates #17
Date: 2025-05-16
Duration: 5h 42m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_00Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_01Andrew Wilson(guest)
SPEAKER_03Raphael Gomez(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:13
IntroBrian introduces debate format
00:01:22
Key MomentRaphael's opening: red pill is poison backed by peer-reviewed research
00:39:00
ControversyRaphael says 'f*** the logic' when pushed on child support justification. Brian and Andrew react with disbelief.
01:31:00
ControversyAndrew tells Raphael to 'shut the f*** up.' Most heated moment.
02:56:00
Key MomentRaphael concedes: if Christian ethics helps depressed men, he's fine with it
03:38:30
AgreementBoth agree to Round 2 debate
Topics Discussed
00:04:00
Red Pill Definition
Andrew: red pill is descriptive data packet. Raphael: it's defined by its biggest creators (Whatever, Fresh & Fit, Tate).
00:32:00
Red Pill and Male Mental Health
Raphael cites studies linking red pill to loneliness/distress. Andrew challenges replication crisis. Cohabitation vs marriage suicide rates.
00:41:00
Feminism and Single Motherhood
Andrew: feminist ideology dismantled marriage. Raphael: men abandon children (95% of custody uncontested by fathers).
01:42:00
Therapy and Psychology
Raphael advocates CBT. Andrew challenges psychology's 60-70% replication failure rate.
02:18:00
Masculinity Definition
Raphael: healthy masculinity is expansive. Andrew finds definition circular. Major meta-argument about debate methodology.
03:24:04
Closing Statements
Raphael: red pill not for everyone, seek alternatives. Andrew: opponent offered no coherent prescription.
03:29:00
Post-Debate Roast
Military draft, historical female oppression, natalism. Raphael reveals he is 41, married, deliberately child-free.
Transcript
Page 1 of 6
00:00:13
SPEAKER_04Welcome to a debate edition of the Whatever podcast coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. A few quick announcements before the show begins.
00:00:24
SPEAKER_04This podcast is you is viewer supported heavy YouTube demonetization. So, please consider donating through Streamlabs instead of soup chatting as YouTube takes a brutal 30% cut. That's
00:00:36
SPEAKER_04streamlabs.com/ whatever. Link for that is in the description. We prioritize messages that are made via Streamlabs. To read a message is going to be $99 and
00:00:46
SPEAKER_04up for today's stream. We're going to read those in batches at various breaks throughout the debate. There will be no instant TTS. We're also live on Twitch right now. Pull up another tab. Go to
00:00:58
SPEAKER_04twitch.tv/w whatever and you can drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one. Without further ado, we have a few topics and prompts for today. You will each have a five-minute opening
00:01:10
SPEAKER_04statement where you will introduce yourself as you like. And then the rest of the show will be open conversation with some prompt changes and breaks for messages from the audience. And then you
00:01:22
Raphael Gomezwill each have a fiveminut closing statement and you're going to open. So, go ahead. My name is Raphael Gomez. I'm the host of Women on Men, where I interview women about men and dating.
00:01:33
Raphael GomezAnd here's my opening statement. I'm not here to fight men. I'm here to fight for them. Because the red pill is presented as medicine, but it's actually a poison. And peer-reviewed research proves it.
00:01:44
Raphael GomezRed Pill Amanda's fear content prays on angry, rejected men, and turns their pain into blame. It tells them women are the enemy, that dating is a war and they're losing. That feminism ruined
00:01:56
Raphael Gomezeverything. The very people they want to date become their adversaries. And it's easier to buy into that story than to look inward. But the science is clear. Studies consistently show that red pill
00:02:06
Raphael Gomezcommunities promote hostile sexism, dehumanize women, and radicalize male pain into misogyny. And to top it off, it's not helping them date either. Men who endorse red pill beliefs report higher levels of loneliness, romantic
00:02:19
Raphael Gomezdissatisfaction, and psychological distress. But the consequences are real and deadly. Just a short drive from this studio, Elliot Roger murdered six people at UC Santa Barbara with the manifesto
00:02:30
Andrew Wilsonfilled with hatred for women. Don't do that. Don't do what? Don't do the manifesto. Don't do that for YouTube purposes. Like, just skip that part or
00:02:41
Raphael Gomezmaybe the point. Go ahead. Okay. and he became a martyr for red pill communities, a symbol of what happens when male pain fers into violence. For all the lectures about female nature and alpha dominance, red pill men aren't
00:02:54
Raphael Gomezforming real relationships. They're staying single, bitter, and stuck. The more they consume this content, the worse their life gets. Not because women changed, but because they did. In the end, it leaves them lonely, angry, and
00:03:06
Raphael Gomezblaming everyone but the ideology that failed them. Just this week, Andrew called red red pill creators degenerates for pushing casual sex, discouraging marriage, and obsessing over status.
00:03:17
Raphael GomezYet, here he is today defending that same ecosystem. He also said that the divide between men and women is a good thing because he believes women will cave first. Andrew wants to keep that division wide because it serves his
00:03:29
Raphael Gomezpersonal crusade to eradicate feminism, even if it means sacrificing the well-being of the very men he claims to protect. That's my opening statement. Okay. So, I'll
00:03:41
Andrew Wilsonrespond a few things. By the way, my name is Andrew Wilson, the host of The Crucible. Uh, welcome to Well, actually, thank you guys for having me, especially
00:03:51
Andrew Wilsonthe Whatever podcast chat. Always nice to be back with you guys and of course, the Crucible Crew. Uh, thank my opponent for coming out as well for this. Um, so the first thing is you mentioned that
00:04:03
Andrew Wilsonthe the red pills poison uh and women are enemies, adversaries. I think that you're making a very classic mistake that many people make, which is that you're associating content creators and
00:04:15
Andrew Wilsontheir views with what the red pill is. And so maybe we can get in what you think the red pill actually is. Sure. Um, so you say that um the red pills
00:04:26
Andrew Wilsonmaking men stay single and uh and stay miserable, etc., etc. Uh, we can get into that, too. Uh, I actually didn't say that red pillars were degenerates. And I'm guessing that you're referencing
00:04:39
Raphael Gomezthe Pearl Davis debate. Uh, no, you said this on your channel. You were talking to a gentleman on your own channel. I can't remember. He was talking on an iPad. You didn't like the sound. It was something you posted I think Tuesday.
00:04:48
Andrew WilsonOkay. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, there are a lot of degenerates who are redpillars, but I didn't I wouldn't make the claim that the red pill to me is just a
00:04:59
Andrew Wilsondescriptive packet. Uh, and you say that Andrew wants uh, feminism to be destroyed at the expense of men. It's the opposite. I want feminism to be destroyed because I think that that
00:05:09
Andrew Wilsonprotects and helps and assists men. So, I'm talking about a gender divide. Um what what I'm what I'm disassociating is that there needs to be when I say gender divide women in the role of female
00:05:21
Andrew Wilsongender roles and men in the role of male gender roles. So that's the divide I'm looking at. Now I'm not looking at a divide of uh like men and women not being close to each other. I'm looking at the divide of I don't want uh
00:05:34
Andrew Wilsonsameness when it comes to gender roles because that's really bad and it does not suit society very well. So, um, kind of with that, I'm happy to just kind of dive into whatever you want here. Sure.
00:05:45
Raphael GomezUm, so I know you say the red pill is kind of this ideology, but red pill, not an ideology, whatever word you used. Um, it's a package. It's a data packet. I've heard you say that. I understand. Um,
00:05:57
Raphael Gomezbut the only way that message is really disseminated is often through these big content creators. Most of the people come across a red pill from things like Fresh and Fit, Andrew Tate, this channel. Um, it's that's how that package is distributed and there are
00:06:11
Andrew Wilsonprescriptive messages. How did they come across it? I don't know. The internet is the internet the algorithm. Do you think they made it up? Do I think who made it up that those red pill creators that you're talking about? Do you think that they just made all that stuff up? No, I don't. I think there's too many similar
00:06:23
Andrew Wilsonmessages for it to be made up. Yeah. So, there's like sources for this stuff, right? Wherever they're sourcing it from, I'm not sure they're dissimating. One such source would be a guy, his name is Rolo Tamasi. Um, the godfather, the red pill. He's
00:06:36
Andrew Wilsongoing to be pissed that I said that because it's like an ongoing meme. But um he calls it a praxiology, right? So if it's if it's praxiological from his perspective, he's saying there's no
00:06:48
Andrew Wilsonprescriptions here, right? It's not it's not designed around prescriptors, it's designed around descriptors. So if you're going to criticize the red pill, you should probably start by criticizing
00:06:59
Andrew Wilsonthe descriptors. Um, but if you wanted to criticize individual content creators for their prescriptions, I think that that's fine. But that's not the red pill. The red pill is a data packet of
00:07:11
Raphael Gomezdescriptions which are trying to to express and explain interpersonal sexual dynamics between men and women. I think the gentleman you mentioned most people haven't heard of. Um, I think most people are getting heard of them. I think most of the people are getting
00:07:25
Andrew Wilsontheir information from the millions of subscriptions to Fresh and Fit and whatever. and fresh and fit. He goes on often. They have a very close Myron Gaines, I'm sure, is much more popular than him. Yeah. Well, the thing is is
00:07:36
Andrew Wilsonlike maybe, but Myron Gaines is not the Are you saying he's the red pill? I think he's one of them. Okay. So, what So, what is Let's start with that. What is the red pill? I consider it content that claims to reveal the truth about women but promotes misogyny and male
00:07:49
Andrew Wilsonvictimhood. Okay. So, um you think that the descriptors do that? I think the content creators that are prescribing what the red pill is. It's not so it's not about So it's about content creators. Sure.
00:08:03
Raphael GomezYou just think that So there's just content creators who you disagree with their message. Um the majority of the red pill content creators that disagree with their message. Well, okay, but okay. Well, what's the majority? Like how many do you think there are? The
00:08:15
Raphael Gomezmost popular of the bunch. The ones that have the most viewers, subscribers. Okay. So, who are these guys that you're talking about? Um Fresh and Fit is a big one. Andrew Tate is another one. And the Whatever podcast is another one. Fresh
00:08:26
Andrew Wilsonfit date and whatever. So here's an easy one. I guess let's start with whatever because I'm intric I'm pretty familiar
00:08:37
Raphael Gomezwith the content here. Um so what is the message that's being put out there? Um there's a lot of misogynist messages that come out of this podcast and I have Well, let's
00:08:47
Raphael Gomezstart with what is misogyny? Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women. The active dislike of women uh plural women. Yeah, correct. The entire gender. So, not the active
00:08:59
Andrew Wilsondislike of a woman. No, not typically. So, it's just women. Yeah. Okay. So, misogyny is the active hatred or dislike of women. Got it. All right. And fresh and fit is another big. Let's start with
00:09:11
Raphael Gomezwhatever. Okay. Yeah. So, what is the misogyny or the dislike of women which is promoted on this channel? Every the it's presented as a dating podcast, but it's really not. Um the topics that typically come up on this podcast that what makes it not a dating podcast? I'm
00:09:24
Raphael Gomezabout to go into that. Oh, okay. Go ahead. Um a dating podcast should not discuss whether or not women should be submissive, whether women should vote. On Sunday, Sunday's show, you ask women how many pumps after they tell you to
00:09:37
Raphael Gomezstop is it grape. That's not a dating podcast. That's one of the craziest questions I've ever heard. Um you basically say divor divorce hurts men. Marriage is pointless. I don't know how that's helping your audience. I don't
00:09:49
Raphael Gomezknow how military conscription has anything to do with a dating podcast. I don't know how uh you know guests being shown a submissive ex-girlfriend and saying, "Would you bow to your husband? Would you bow to your husband?" That's
00:10:01
Raphael Gomeznot a dating podcast. That is promoting hatred of women and and misogyny as well. Um female guests are pressured to reveal their body count and then mocked. If they don't reveal, they're
00:10:11
Raphael Gomezinterrogated until they reveal. Um women with Only Fans are moralized and told to quit. Um, male promiscuity is excused and celebrated. Um, women are asked about their peak looks, age, and
00:10:23
Raphael Gomezquestioned incessantly. Segments like Man Bear versus Woods mock women's very real fears about male violence, even though statistical realities are ignored
00:10:32
Raphael Gomezand and dismissed as irrational. Um, the super chat roast, um, the guests love to [ __ ] on these women every chance they get. And on this show, feminism and women are blamed for most of men's problems.
00:10:47
SPEAKER_04Can I have a Do you have a copy of that? I'd like to see it the thing because you just shotguns a bunch of points. And Andrew, might you want it one by one? I also have peer-reviewed studies if you
00:10:59
SPEAKER_04want those two. Yeah, if you have any especially if they have a meta analysis, I'd like to see them. And and just to be before you give your response, Andrew, my understanding here for the the debate
00:11:09
Andrew Wilsonwas primarily going to be about feminism, not specific criticisms of the Well, I mean, this is prompts were about manosphere and red pill. Yeah. So, this is I'm actually fine with this. Right.
00:11:21
Andrew WilsonSo, um why it's not really a dating podcast. Whether women should be submissive. Um why I don't understand why would that not be relational to dating. What does
00:11:33
Andrew Wilsonsubmission have to do with dating? Well, because dating is a especially on a dating show, you would be significantly talking about people's preferences when it came to the the social experiences or having with the opposite sex. You're not talking about your preferences, you're
00:11:47
Andrew Wilsontalking about their preferences. Cuz when you talk about submission, you're talking about from your worldview, women should be submissive. Okay? But what from their worldview, they could also have maybe a counter to that why they shouldn't. Or uh also a lot of them say
00:11:58
Andrew Wilsonyes, they should. So, the idea here for submission especially would be I don't I don't see how that's not dating related. I I don't know how submission comes up on any sort of date. I don't know if you've ever been on a date in in the
00:12:10
Andrew Wilsonlast So, okay. So, if I ask you, what type of woman do you want? Mhm. And you go through the traits and you say, "I'd also like a submissive woman." Does that make sense to say as a trait? Sure. I
00:12:23
Andrew Wilsondon't know many people that would just offer that up as one of the first things they want a woman, but maybe those are the people you hang out with. Who said it was the first? If you're if I'm asking you said if you ask somebody if I'm asking what's your dynamic and one of the answers is a submissive woman.
00:12:35
Andrew WilsonYeah. That comes up all the time for men in dating. Okay. In your circles perhaps. I mean no just in what it Well, how many dating podcast sample sizes do you have here? I listen I'm I'm on a
00:12:47
Andrew Wilsondating podcast. I made one. I listen to a lot I listen to a lot of your shows. I listen to a lot of everything that's out there. I don't understand any of the dating podcasts that come up when you ask men their preference. They've never once said, "I would prefer to have a
00:13:00
Andrew Wilsonwoman who's more submissive." The topic of submission only comes up on Red Pill podcast. No, it doesn't only come up on podcast. It's been on Dr. Phil. It's been everywhere. Dr. Phil talks about submission every episode. Every episode.
00:13:11
Andrew WilsonI didn't say every episode. Doing a dating. Is he doing a dating podcast? Don't mention Dr. Phil as a dating show. Don't mention Dr. Phil mentioned. That's not a dating show. You asked where else it's mentioned as a dating show. That is
00:13:23
Andrew Wilsonnot a dating show. Yeah. So in in in any case, any of the dating podcasts that I've seen is a very common answer to say that they want to name another dating podcast. And here's the other thing to dive into this. Name another dating podcast. Here's the other thing to dive into this. Well, you got to name another dating podcast. Okay. Fresh and fit
00:13:36
Andrew Wilsonhappens there all the time. Red pill content. Exactly. As I said, okay, so when you're talking about a dating podcast, what do you mean by that? Something a little less, I don't know, misogynistic perhaps. What does that mean, though? I've already explained it
00:13:48
Andrew Wilsonto you and defined it. If any man has a has a dating podcast, is it uh red pill or I have a dating podcast and it's not misogynistic. I see. And let me ask you a question. What kind of questions do you ask on your dating podcast? I asked
00:14:00
Raphael Gomezthem what are their priorities in a man. I asked them, "Do you have advice for men and dating?" How many uh how many men have you had on? Zero. It's called women on men. Oh, I see. So, you're a misandress. Absolutely not. Well, I don't understand. Why don't you want a
00:14:12
Andrew Wilsonman's opinion? Because I want to ask women specifically. That has nothing. Missandry involves hate and I don't hate men. Oh, okay. I got it. So, so you only have on women, correct? And you don't ask them when you ask them about
00:14:23
Andrew Wilsonpreferences. Yeah. Right. Do they say that they want things like assertive men? No. Do they say that they want less assertive men? I give them a list of 10 traits and say, "Rank these between your top three and your bottom three." Okay.
00:14:36
Andrew WilsonSo, you're you're giving them the answers. I'm not giving them the answers. They take a lot of time to think about it. But you just said you gave them 10 traits. Yeah, that that's not the answers. Those are options. Yeah, that's answers to that. There are options. you can choose from. It's a
00:14:49
Andrew Wilsonmultiple choice. That's not answers. Yes, it's answers. Okay. They're answers, Andrew. Yeah. You gave them 10 answers and say, "Choose from these." And then they sort them. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that's their answer. You're making them choose from answers that you give them. So, you're literally feeding
00:15:02
Andrew Wilsonthem their answers and and then they choose them. Yep. And they don't come and say, "Man, I wish you would have had this on the Why is it then?" Well, how long have you been doing it? Can we get back to Can we get back to misogynistic podcast? If it is the case that can we get back to
00:15:14
Andrew Wilsonmisogynist the case that it is your criticism can we get back to misogynist if you're going to have criticism for whatever I'm going to have criticism for your podcast you haven't even listened to it so don't don't talk about it do I need to pull it to it from you go ahead pull it up on YouTube I can listen to it
00:15:27
SPEAKER_02from you go ahead and pull it up on YouTube you have not watched my podcast so don't sit here we're not going to critique my podcast why not because you haven't even watched it let's watch it go ahead pull it up so if we pull it 45 minutes 45 minutes 45 minutes put on two
00:15:39
Raphael Gomeztimes speed and then we can critique my podcast but until then tell me about another non-misogynistic red pill podcast. Well, I don't think any of those are misogynistic podcasts. Yeah, of course not. You got to demonstrate that they actually hate these women by
00:15:50
Raphael Gomeztheir actions, by the things, everything that's happening right there. Yeah. So, so let's go through some more of these. When Myroning Gains has a has a a college uh table that says women deserve less. You don't think that's a little
00:16:01
Raphael Gomezmisogynistic? Is that during his podcast? He is one of the red pill content creators that we're talking about. I had to be a podcast, dude. I thought I had to be a podcast. doesn't have to be a podcast. Act like an adult. That is the most childish thing I've
00:16:14
Andrew Wilsonever seen in my whole life. That's You put the You gave me the criteria. The criteria is the content creators, including my ring gains. Yes. I've always said that. Nothing's changed in my We're talking about dating podcast. The idea of dating. Correct. Is it also possible there's just not that many?
00:16:28
Raphael GomezYeah. There's not a lot of red pill podcast. The No, no. Just dating podcast. There's a ton of dating podcast. Okay. Name some. Mine. Name some other ones. Um there's a guy named
00:16:37
Andrew WilsonMan, We're in Trouble. Um there's um Eeveeit. There's uh Eevee edits a a dating podcast. Yeah, she talks about dating and men and women. Say a dating
00:16:48
Andrew Wilsonpodcast though. Yes. So they have This isn't a dating podcast. Hang on. So they have This isn't a dating podcast. So on Eeveeedit they have uh every single time they come on they have multitudes of people on with them and all they talk about necessarily say they have guests.
00:17:01
Andrew WilsonI'm not talking about the format. I'm saying that's what the content that comes up is men and women and this is not a dating podcast that we're currently on. You're just talking about for you a dating podcast. Just anybody who's talking about dating. This is not
00:17:12
SPEAKER_04a dating podcast that we're currently on. Well, prove it. It's I just did. How? Let's go through more. You want me to read them? So, here. Why don't we do the first one? Whether women should be submissive, I don't I don't understand.
00:17:25
Andrew WilsonHow's Again, how would that not Yeah. Actually, how would that not be uh a decent question to ask for dating? I don't get it. Do you ask that on your first dates? What if a woman would be submissive? Yeah. No, exactly. Cuz it's
00:17:38
Andrew Wilsonnot a dating question. Why would that Wait, hang on. Let's back up. Let's assume for a second that anything that I would ask a woman on the first date isn't something you would ask a woman on the first date. What does that prove? I'm saying the things you guys do. How
00:17:51
Andrew Wilsondo you think you're going to look better in 10 years? Do you think you're going to look better in 10 years? Is that something you ask on the date? What's your body count? Do you ask that on the first date? Can you answer my question? Do you ask what's a body count on the first date? Before Before you start shopping, you have different questions. Before you start any questions, you have
00:18:04
Andrew Wilsondifferent questions. I'll never answer one of yours if you never answer one of mine. Go ahead, Andrew. So, so here here we go again. What does it actually prove? What does it prove that if I
00:18:16
Andrew Wilsonasked a whole sequence of different questions from you on my first date? What does that prove? That you're not asking these questions on your first date? Can you answer my question? I just did. What does it prove? It proves that you're not asking these questions. So, it doesn't prove
00:18:29
Andrew Wilsonanything. It does prove it. What does it prove? That you're not asking these kinds of questions on your first date. So, what is that proving outside of that? It proves that these are more mis Hang on. Does it also prove that I don't ask any other questions other people
00:18:42
Andrew Wilsonwould ask that you're not asking here? I have no idea if it proves anything. Like, it's just so stupid, dude. It proves nothing. What does it prove? What do those questions prove? Nothing. They don't prove anything. Okay. This is just
00:18:53
Andrew Wilsona pure dating podcast. Dating is about your preferences, anecdotes, experiences. It's about how many pumps after she says stop is grape. That's a dating podcast. You think that when people Hold on. Answer that question.
00:19:05
Andrew WilsonAnswer. I'll answer it. I don't think you are. You have to stop talking. I can't answer it. So, stop talking and I'll answer it. Is it the case that when you have uh you know half a dozen people who are sitting at a table and they're
00:19:18
Andrew Wilsonbuilding a rapport with each other that they crack jokes? You think that's a joke? Yeah. How many pumps after a woman says stop is it grape is a joke? Yeah. Who laughs at that? Uh, lots of people. I think it's funny. I I'm not surprised you think it's funny. I think you think
00:19:30
Andrew Wilsonit's funny. I'm sure you think it's funny. It is funny. Do you know But do you know why it's funny? What makes it funny? Cuz you're a little misogynistic. No, no, no. It's because a feminist on this program a few months ago. I remember. I saw it. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't So, it's a call back to that. It's
00:19:43
SPEAKER_02not a call back to that. Yeah. It's a call back to that because that was not about stopping. Yeah. It was about consent. Yeah. But that was about your wife sleeping and you banging her while she's sleeping. But that does if she says stop and you keep going. Is that
00:19:53
Andrew Wilsonconsent? That Well, the idea there is how long after is is are you violating consent? That's the idea. Yeah. It's a dating podcast topic, right? Of course. No. Yeah. Of course. People talk about that all the time, right? Do you think
00:20:04
Andrew Wilsonthat in the age in this modern age where interexual and interpersonal dynamics between men and women are so [ __ ] up and they are [ __ ] up and you're contributing, right? Do you think that
00:20:16
Andrew Wilsonthe idea when you have tons of people who are out there talking about consent, you have feminist academics who are talking about if two people are drunk and they have sex, they're actually technically raping each other, raping each other, right? Do you really think
00:20:28
Raphael Gomezthat these are inappropriate questions to ask during a dating podcast in modernity? I absolutely believe it's inappropriate to say how many pumps after a woman says stop is it grape. That is inappropriate. Why? Because it
00:20:41
SPEAKER_02should just be after she says stop. Tell me how many not going to answer that question. You're not going to answer it? No, cuz it's a stupid ass question. I don't know. I think it's a fair question. Of course you do. Cuz you're misogynistic. What's misogynistic about it? Because that is grape. You're talking about grape in such a lightarted
00:20:52
Raphael Gomezmanner. I just answered the question. How does that prove I hate women? Dude, we can go down the list of things you've said. Go down the list. Out of your 5,000 debates. Go down the list. Do you like women at all? Love them. Oh, you
00:21:04
Andrew Wilsonlove them. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, it's so funny to talk about grapes. So funny. The fact the fact that you would laugh at a grape question shows that you don't like women. I laugh. Oh, hang on. Hang on. Are you saying I hate men because I laugh about
00:21:16
Andrew Wilsonprison grape? No. You don't hate I don't get it though. That's a double standard. You don't hate men. You don't You love You only care about men. So if I make light of a man getting raped you don't see that's that's fine you don't see it
00:21:28
Andrew Wilsonthe same and it's not I don't how do I see it you tell me you see women is so much less than prove it I'm looking for the demonstration not the assertion just watch just watch the assertion just watch videos just watch Andrew's videos
00:21:41
Andrew Wilsonyeah exactly yeah don't prove no evidence yeah no I'm making it up I'm making it up so just tell me real quick how can you uh affirm that I hate women cuz I might make light of a grape joke for women, but I don't hate men if I
00:21:55
Andrew Wilsonmake light of a grape joke for a men. I'm not sure. You know, I know you're not sure cuz that makes no [ __ ] sense. So, moving on to the next one. Um, as we go through this, uh, whether
00:22:05
Andrew Wilsonwomen should vote. So, in modernity, women's voting habits, right, uh, have a lot to do with the modern state of society, don't they? Sure. And they have
00:22:16
Andrew Wilsonto do with um with the state of of people who want maybe patriarchy or they want highly religious women who allow men to lead uh or women who will turn over their ability to vote to their own
00:22:28
Andrew Wilsonhusband and say, "You just tell me where to vote?" Yeah. You agree with all of that? Sure. Okay. So then why wouldn't it be pertinent to ask women what they think about women's voting patterns and
00:22:39
Raphael Gomezvoting habits? Because you talk about revoking the right for women to vote. So, so it's just just an easy conversation people have. Should women vote? That's just something that people talk about around their dinner table,
00:22:50
Andrew Wilsonright? It's okay. Do you think that was an easy conversation when you were talking about whether or not it was okay for white women to vote to date black men? Do I think what was an easy conversation? That conversation. Sure.
00:23:02
Andrew WilsonPre premisination was pretty hard conversation, right? But do you think that it was pertinent to dating at the time? Sure. Okay. So then if that was pertinent to dating at the time and they were talking about all the reasons you
00:23:12
Andrew Wilsonshould or shouldn't do this and it's a political and it's a political ideology both on both sides, right? Why is it not appropriate for us to have a conversation about women's voting patterns when it comes to relationships?
00:23:25
Andrew WilsonIt's not women's voting patterns. It's should women vote. That's not about patterns. Yeah, it is. That is the question about women. Well, how would you determine if they should or shouldn't? I just think everyone should. Oh, you just think that? Yeah. Tell me
00:23:36
Andrew Wilsonwhy. I don't need to. You don't need to. No. Okay. So, the thing is is um I'll I'll I'll just I'll just release you from this. I'll just let you skip out on giving me no justification for why everybody should be able to vote. I I
00:23:49
Andrew Wilsondon't I don't need What I want to know I would like to know. You don't need one. I don't need a justification justification. I don't need justification to ask a woman uh if if she thinks other women should have the right to vote in order for me to judge whether or not she's a submissive woman
00:24:02
Raphael Gomezor not. Sure. But that's not a dating topic. That's just you being political. I want to judge if that's you being political. You guys push your conservative agenda on this channel and that's what you do. Do you think that I want to live in it? Well, I do. Yeah, you do. And so, Jim Bob, I know because
00:24:15
SPEAKER_02homie just sits back and chills. Brian's chilling. He's eating popcorn while you ask these questions. Yeah, it's But I mean, I literally have made It's his podcast. I've never made any qualms that I'm here to represent my worldview. I know, but it's a dating podcast and
00:24:27
Andrew Wilsonyou're asking these crazy questions. They're not crazy. They're absolutely. Should women vote is a crazy question in 2025. Can I also ask you this? Do you think that men and women get and when they're in relationships get into
00:24:40
Andrew Wilsonpolitical arguments often? Sure. Constantly. Right. I mean, theoretically, if you're dating somebody with the same values, you're not. But if you marry if you marry a woman and she votes against your vote, would that
00:24:51
Andrew Wilsoncreate marital issues? Maybe. But I don't think you probably would have ever married that person to begin with because you don't have Probably not. You know why? Because you asked her what she thought about the right to vote and she said, "I want women to have the right to vote." And so
00:25:04
Andrew Wilsonhe didn't [ __ ] marry her or he didn't date her because she doesn't align with you politically. Does that do you know do you know people that that do that? Do you know people that say I won't marry this woman because she thinks women should marry an overly assertive woman who thinks that she's going to be politically dominant in my home. Of
00:25:18
Andrew Wilsoncourse it has nothing to do about politically dominant. You said if I ask a woman, do you think women should vote? And she says yes. I'm not going to date that person. And then but hang on. But then you ask her why. No, I don't ask her why. I know. But if you were going
00:25:29
Andrew Wilsonto date her, you should. No, because I think women should vote. I know you think that you're not every man who lives. Wow. How many How many men don't think women should vote? I have no idea. But at least a significant think it's a
00:25:41
Raphael Gomezsignificant amount. Yeah, I do. But give me a percentage of how I have no idea. Throw it out. You're a smart guy. That would be impossible. Throw it out. You're a smart guy. You can you can assume how many men throw out a number. Throw out a percentage in your gut, in your heart of hearts. How many men don't
00:25:53
Andrew Wilsonwant women to vote? I'll throw that out. If you throw out how many do. Okay. Okay. You first. How many men want How many men want women to vote? I say at least 90%. Based on Man, I know. So, no. That's it. Yeah. So, based on anecdote.
00:26:07
Raphael GomezExactly. Just like I'm asking you to do. Yeah. That's why I wouldn't give you one. Yeah. Because I don't deal in anecdotes. No. No. We don't deal on anecdotes at all. You deal in anecdotes all the time, but No, I don't. Unless you're asking me about something anecdotal. Okay. So, anyway, um yeah,
00:26:20
Andrew Wilsonthere's no reason. There's actually no good reason that you've given me yet for why it's not pertinent inside of a man's dating life if he wants a submissive woman why he she wouldn't be politically aligned with his ideology. Okay. So,
00:26:33
Andrew Wilsonjust pointing that out. You actually still haven't given me a reason. Yeah. On Sunday's show you asked, well, I didn't ask this, so I don't know anything about it. Um, how many pumps after a woman uh says stop before it
00:26:45
Andrew Wilsonbecomes grape? Mhm. I didn't ask that. I know. But it's that's why this isn't a dating podcast because you made a joke. That's not a joke. Yeah, it's a callback joke. It's not clear to me that it's not. It's not clear because it's a
00:26:56
Andrew Wilsontotally different scenario. Okay. Even Even though you really don't think that that's about consent. I know what the joke was. I remember it wasn't debate. You're a joke. I'm talking about the
00:27:08
Andrew Wilsoncall back. I'm saying this is not a joke. So So what makes it not a joke? Because it's not funny. Oh. So So you don't find it funny. So nobody find it funny. Nobody was laughing. Not a single person. So if I So if I go back to that time stamp and I look at it, go please
00:27:20
Andrew Wilsondo pull up and nobody's gonna say anything. Pull it up now. Nobody's gonna say anything. The only person that kind of chuckled was Brian. So then it was a joke. No. Then why did Brian laugh? I'm not sure. Cuz he thought it was funny.
00:27:32
Andrew WilsonPerhaps if the joke teller thinks it's funny, that's that's a problem. Why? Because if no one else is laughing except the joke teller, that's a problem. That just means it's a bad joke, not that it's not a joke. Okay. It's so funny. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.
00:27:44
Andrew WilsonBut I mean, can people tell bad jokes? Sure. And nobody laughs. Yeah. Bad jokes about But if you tell the joke and then you laugh, do you think it was intended as a dating podcast? Yeah. Do you think
00:27:53
Raphael Gomezit was intended as a joke? No, I don't. So why did he laugh? I'm not sure. Yeah, that's Maybe maybe out of awkward. Maybe out of insecurity. Maybe out of all Yeah, people laugh out in uncomfortable circumstances. You do it all the time.
00:28:06
Raphael GomezLike when I asked you why, you said because he thought it was funny. I Maybe it's insecurity. I have no idea. Maybe it's way your answer, bro. Oh yeah, I can change my answer. New information. How about that? You got It's your information. How is it new?
00:28:18
SPEAKER_04The next one is divorce hurts men. Marriage is pointless. What? That literally the opposite of my message. No. Well, he's saying that's one of the reasons how the show is not a
00:28:30
Raphael Gomezdating podcast. When we talk about divorce, you're actively promoting people. You're actively saying why should men get married? That's a common talk in point. No, I usually ask why secular men
00:28:41
Andrew Wilsonshould. Why should anybody get married? This is super important. So this I don't even think you would argue that this is isn't dating related. So the span and spectrum between religious and the religious who want to get married in
00:28:54
Andrew Wilsontheir preferences and secularists who want to get married in their preferences like [ __ ] night and day. And so I always draw this parallel out when I ask religious people why do you want to get married? Right? Especially religious
00:29:05
Andrew Wilsonwomen. And then you hear this answer right? you know, I want to fulfill my obligations to God or I want to, you know, live a certain lifestyle which is based on my ethical system. That's why I want to get married. You ask secularist
00:29:16
Andrew Wilsonwomen why you want to get married and often times they'll give you a whole complete class list of uh I want more resources or I would like security or they're not unreasonable, right? But
00:29:29
Andrew Wilsonthey definitely have a completely distinct distinction in opinion for why they want to get married. That is I don't even think you could disagree that that's 100% valid for dating. Talking
00:29:40
Andrew Wilsonabout marriage is fine. Discouraging it is not. When when do I ever This podcast discourages marriage all the time. When When have I ever discouraged marriage? I didn't say you did. I said this podcast. I have always maintained to try to throw
00:29:53
Andrew Wilsonyou like as much banal ranch as I can. I've always maintained that to me I can't create justifications for secular marriage. Well, by the way, we're also talking about Red Pill Manosphere. Myron Gaines is also someone else. Another
00:30:04
Andrew Wilsonpopular He also can't create. So I've had conversations with Myron about this. Okay. He also is in the same boat that I am in that for secularist men because what my says is from the religious standpoint makes sense especially if
00:30:16
Andrew Wilsonthere's an ecclesiastical authority which can help govern it, right? Um but he's the same like from the secularist standpoint justifying it for men is very difficult. When he's talking about not getting married, he never caveats it about being secular. He says why would
00:30:30
Raphael Gomezmen get married? They don't get anything out of it. It's stupid. This is the same message that Red Pill content creators are promoting to their people and that's why they are seeking that's why they're alone and that's why they're isolated some ground here that um he probably
00:30:43
Andrew Wilsondoes talk like that but he's a secularist. Okay. So when he's when he's referencing men right he's thinking of it from that view. What does Andrew Tate think about marriage again? What does that have to do with Myron Gaines? One
00:30:55
Raphael Gomezat a time. Don't pivot. Don't red her. Wait. And also I just want to come in here. Andrew Wilson is not Andrew Tate. So why is Andrew doing a defense of Andrew Tate? He's doing a defense of Red Pill Manosphere content and that they
00:31:06
Andrew Wilsonare content creators of that. I'm fine. I'm fine doing this. So uh Andrew Tate is looking at things also from the perspective of um Muslim and um
00:31:18
Andrew Wilsonhe's looking at things from he has a like a variance perspective that's kind of interesting. um discouraging. I actually understand why it is that secularists discourage
00:31:30
Andrew Wilsonmarriage for men. Uh that makes sense to me and I actually understand why it is that Tate would discourage uh marriage for men as well. That also makes sense to me. But since his conversion, he
00:31:42
Andrew Wilsonactually seems to discourage it less, but says instead that there needs to be reforms and changes to the way that the laws are done so that men don't take as much risk in marriage. Okay. Okay, so going back to my opening statement,
00:31:54
Raphael Gomezthree of the biggest podcasts that promote Red Pill content, whatever, Fresh and Fit, and Andrew Tate, most of them, this excluding you and Jim Bob, discourage marriage typically. So that's my point that I've been making this
00:32:05
Andrew Wilsonwhole time that you guys, this these content creators are discouraging men and women from getting together because it benefits them. But I need you to tell me this now, okay? I'm going to actually concede this point so that you can tell
00:32:17
Andrew Wilsonme why the [ __ ] that's bad for men. Do you think men shouldn't get together with women? I have no I would love to hear your justifications for why it is that secularist men ought to get married
00:32:28
Raphael Gomezto secularist women. Go ahead. I think that red pill men, especially the incelss of the world, 95% of them report severe depression and they're lonely. So these kinds of podcasts promote people
00:32:41
Andrew Wilsonbeing alone and that is dangerous to men. You're right. But have you looked at the unaliving rates for divorced men? They're high. But you know how much
00:32:51
Andrew Wilsonhigher? 80% of all on the lives 80% of all on the lives are men. 80% of all on the lives are men. And by the way, why didn't you throw in uh because you're only giving one side of this, right? I've read probably all of these studies.
00:33:05
Andrew WilsonIn fact, you can give me the list. I bet you I have. You have the list. Here's what's interesting. In the study that you're citing specifically, especially when it comes to unaliving studies. Yeah. Especially when it comes to unaliving. Which demographic unalives
00:33:17
Andrew Wilsonthe most? It's those who cohabitate. The cohabitating men who are unmarried, right? They actually unal alive more than the men who are married
00:33:29
Andrew Wilsonor the men who aren't married, including these depressed men. And cohabitation seems to be like kind of the number one thing that secularists push, right? Go ahead and cohabitate. You can go ahead and live together. There's no reason for you to have any type of moral standards.
00:33:41
Andrew WilsonThere's no reason for you not to go ahead and move in with with your girlfriend. That's what they push. Do you know who's getting married more right now than anybody any other demographic? Who? College educated
00:33:53
Raphael Gomezpeople. Yeah, that's true. Mostly secularists. So, I don't know what you're talking about. They're not secularists aren't pushing don't get married. What does that have to do with anything? This idea that you're saying secularists have this non-moral code where they're saying just cohabitate, it doesn't matter. That's not what's
00:34:06
Andrew Wilsonhappening because they're actually getting married. Yeah, because women who are in college have access to much higher status men than women who aren't in college. College educated people are also getting divorce less. Yes, because
00:34:18
Andrew Wilsonyou have the high status man that you want who has lots and lots of money. Yes, that's the way that works. The women are also making a lot of money. Do you know how No, not No. So, here's the thing that's so funny. Here's what you
00:34:30
Andrew Wilsonwhat you didn't include here. So when it comes to the middle, right, you're right that the the middle class, which I would argue, you're saying I'm right a lot, which which probably doesn't exist, right? I appreciate you saying I'm right. The thing that's so fun about
00:34:42
Andrew Wilsonmaking a concession to a point is that it makes it easier for me to destroy it. So here's what's funny about this. You are correct that the middle class does get divorced a bit less or I'm sorry, get married a bit less, right? Um, in
00:34:55
Andrew Wilsonsome cases a lot less depending on depending on what's going on. But here's why. You can only usually get a guy or a woman based around the social dynamics and social circle that you're in. Right.
00:35:07
Andrew WilsonSure. They don't they only have access to women or men who are roughly making around the same amount or not the same amount as them. And usually they meet them at work. College educated women different. Now they have access to this
00:35:18
Andrew Wilsonkind of wider pool of much more wealthy men, right? And so yeah, of course, of course they marry them more often. They have a higher status there for them to go after. That's why they do that. I like how you think women are just going
00:35:29
Andrew Wilsonafter high status men when they make up 45% of the workforce, 43% of entrepreneurs. They're making their own money in Can you tell me though what the disparity is between the amount of money that these college educated women make
00:35:41
Andrew Wilsoncompared to their college educated husbands? Sir, I'm not sure. But yeah, you're not sure. I'm not sure. Oh, that's such a shock. Well, let me tell you cuz I am sure. Right. A significant It's a significant amount. Give me a
00:35:53
Andrew Wilsonnumber then if you know so much. number because I don't remember if it's between I don't remember if it's between.5 or one but it's at least at least.5 more. Okay. At least. Okay. So like I don't I
00:36:06
Andrew Wilsondon't even know what you're here. Yeah. I'm arguing here that secularists still get married and you're making the stupid point that they're promoting cohabitation even though that's not I would say that if it were the case that the middle class had access to the same
00:36:17
Andrew Wilsonamount of wealth as the college educated women do that they would be getting married at the same rates to those men. Okay. Okay. Well, why aren't they getting married then? Because they don't have access to those men. Okay. Can you tell me why that's wrong? I think No,
00:36:30
Raphael Gomezyou can't. Can you? Cuz it makes sense, doesn't it? I'm about to. Why do you think there's such a gulf between relationships right now that you actually encourage? I don't. What golf do I encourage? You encourage it on Pearl Davis's show just this week. What?
00:36:42
Raphael GomezThat the golf she said men and women are dating. You said good. Yeah. No. No. No. No. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. You're You're going to lie right here. Right in front in front of my face. I don't think I did say that. Yes, you did. You said it's good because they're going to No, I'll tell you what you said. You said
00:36:55
Raphael Gomezthey're going to hold out because you think women are going to cave first so that we could start creating these gender roles again. Ah, yes. So, you're talking about my internal critique of Pearl Davis. Pearl Davis said men and women aren't dating and you said good and this is why it's good. That's not an
00:37:08
Andrew Wilsoninternal critique. This is why it's good. That's not internal critique. Yes, it was. The entire conversation with Pearl was an internal critique. That specific conversation was not an internal critique. The whole conversation was an internal critique. That's a That's a very likely story.
00:37:20
Andrew WilsonIt's not only a like but listen do you do am I do I am I a person who debates utilizing internal critiques? Sure. Yeah. And do I use that? Am I do I have a staple for utilizing internal critiques? Sure. Okay. Why is it though
00:37:32
Raphael Gomezthat for some reason you think with Pearl Davis I wouldn't use internal throughout the I will admit throughout the podcast you were. But this specific point you weren't. This was this was your own personal belief that it's a good thing that men and women are dating because you only want Christian people
00:37:44
Andrew Wilsondating. You only want Christian people dating and having babies suck and go [ __ ] themselves. My point there if I now this is off the top of my head right and I think it's unfair for you to hold me to the standard of this debate that I
00:37:56
Andrew Wilsonhad that went on for hours. I can't remember every detail of it, but if I remember this correctly, what actually happened there was we were discussing secular marriage and if the gulf got too wide, right, then people are going to
00:38:08
Raphael Gomezdivert themselves over to other ex thing. But I don't remember had nothing to do with secular. It's like you keep throwing that word in front of what these people are saying because it just helps your argument. But that's not what you guys were discussing. You're talking about men and women aren't dating. You
00:38:20
Raphael Gomezadmit that men and women are dating currently that it's Do you know men 18 to 24 never ask a woman out in real life? Did you know that? Yeah. No. Well, no, that's not correct. Okay, correct me then. Yeah. No, show me show me the show me any data that shows that in your
00:38:33
Andrew Wilsonpacket. It's probably not in that packet because it's not true. Okay, then what's the what's the statistically? I don't have to give you a counter. I just can tell you that that's not true unless you demonstrate. Demonstrate it. Okay. I'm the one who actually brought something. Did you bring Did you bring any
00:38:45
SPEAKER_02demonstrate any statistic you've thrown out? What statistic have I thrown out? Demonstrate any statistic you've thrown out. What statistic have I thrown out about how much more men in college make than their their wife counterparts? You demanded that I give you a number. What
00:38:56
Andrew Wilsondid I say? I don't actually significantly know other than it's significant. The gap. Well, then show me the proof of that. Yeah, I don't. That's all I [ __ ] up. Yeah. So, here here, just real quick. Just demonstrate it.
00:39:09
SPEAKER_04Demonstrate it. I got your data packet. Let me ask you something. Are men and women dating less? Hold on. If you got to answer his question answer questions. Hold on. If you're going to cross-examine him, he's going to cross.
00:39:22
SPEAKER_04I asked him initially how many people are dating. answered most of your question. What was the question? He said, "You've asked a bunch of You've shotguned a bunch of questions. He asked you a question back. You should respond." Oh my god, this [ __ ] room is cooking. Can you open
00:39:34
Andrew Wilsonthat door up? It is pretty hot in here. Yeah, it's [ __ ] cooking both of them. Holy [ __ ] This is like peak bad, dude. All right. It's It's got to be
00:39:46
Andrew Wilsonlike a [ __ ] 100 degrees in this room, dude. Uh, so anyway, where were we? What were we talking about? I asked about men and women dating and the gulf between them. Yeah. What about it? Do you admit that that's happening?
00:39:58
Andrew WilsonThat there's a gulf between dating? Yeah. That men and women are dating less by in general. What does that mean? What are you asking me? Do you think men and
00:40:07
Andrew Wilsonwomen are dating less? Yes or no? Yes. And you think that's a good thing? Um, contextually it could be a good thing. What do you mean by contextually? Well, it could be that people are
00:40:20
Andrew Wilsonselecting for better better mates, for instance, and so they're dating less because they have much more criteria for them to go off of. Maybe it you could possibly see these results of that less single motherhood. There could it could
00:40:31
Raphael Gomezbe a good thing. Do you think there are more in involuntary celibate men than ever? No. You think this is definitely not you think this is not an anomaly that's happening right now? No. When when else in history do you think that was happening? So throughout most of
00:40:44
Andrew Wilsonhistory, only about 40% of men ever reproduced. And we know this because of we can we can check our ancestry and see how many more uh female ancestors than male we have. So yeah, most men were not
00:40:57
Andrew Wilsonable to reproduce. They were expendable. They were used as soldiers, used as this, used as that. Uh so no actually resources to reprod. Yeah, you'll concede that point, right? So yeah, I don't think that this is like
00:41:09
Andrew WilsonSo you don't think there's a golf in the mail loneliness thing? You don't think that's a real thing? Yeah. Well, I didn't say that though. What did I actually say? No, I'm asking. Do you think it's So what I actually said was I
00:41:19
Andrew Wilsondo I do think it is the case that no, you are incorrect and that this is not the worst it's ever been. I would say that the interpersonal sexual dynamics might be the worst they've ever been. But I also think that feminism and
00:41:31
Andrew Wilsonsingle mom caused that. That's an interesting Why do you think that caused it? Because all the stats show that uh every single rate that you can imagine a metric which is horrific on young men uh
00:41:44
Raphael Gomezusually comes from single mother homes. We're talking everything from homelessness on up. Um, are almost everything. Is another term for single mother homes, fatherless homes? Sure. So, why do you put it on women? Because
00:41:56
Andrew Wilsonit's usually women who initiate being in the fatherless relationship, not men. And why do they initiate being in a fatherless relationship? The number one answer from women is that uh irreconcilable differences. So, do you know anyone in a woman in your life has
00:42:09
Raphael Gomezever been divorced? Sure. Do they say, "Hey, we got divorced because we couldn't reconcile our differences." Or do they say another reason? Uh usually well I mean they they have all sorts of reasons. Yeah. But they don't say we couldn't reconcile our
00:42:21
Andrew Wilsondifferences, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But what's your point? Why do you use that as a reason women are That's the reason they give is irreconcilable. That's the reason they give in court. But what do they give in real life? What's the real reason? They have a
00:42:33
Andrew Wilsonvarying varying uh degree of things. But here's what's not happening. What they're not actually giving in real life is he was abusing me. He was beating me up. He was doing this. He was doing that. You know the top three reasons
00:42:45
Raphael Gomezwomen file for divorce. Infidelity, emotional neglect, and poor communication followed by finances. What's the top three though? That's the top three I just said. No, it's not. Yes, it is. No, the top three is not infidelity. Yes. Infidelity, emotional
00:42:57
Andrew Wilsonneglect, and poor communication followed by finances. Oh. So, what's the number one reason? I just said fidelity. Infidelity. I just said that. Infidelity is number one reason. Correct. Okay. Which one of these studies proves that? Did you bring any studies? Just tell me which You know what? Don't say any facts
00:43:11
Raphael Gomezfor the rest of this debate if you're not going to show me a study. How about that, bro? Listen, don't show No more facts. No more facts. You got to stop interrupting him every time. You literally were interrupting his boy.
00:43:24
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you did. Did I make the claim or did you It's called Yo, it's called moderating the show. You've been interrupting the entire time. If Andrew interrupts you, I'll say the same thing to him. Yeah. But just real quick, um, did you make the claim or did I make the
00:43:36
Raphael Gomezclaim? I made the claim. Okay, great. Can you show it? I don't have the data point in front of me, but I looked it up prior to this and you can do it after. Okay. What if we do it now? Do go for it. Sure.
00:43:47
Raphael GomezAnd where can I find this data? I around. Yeah, you looked it up. I have a lot of data, man. I don't know exactly each source I got from
00:44:01
Andrew Wilsonthis is more about single mothers. You can look at that one if you want to talk about single motherhood. Yeah, we can get into that. But again, this is just wild to me. I thought I thought you were going to tell me that that was the number one reason. Okay. Well, you can't
00:44:14
Raphael Gomezuse any facts if you don't have any data. The number one reason that I'm seeing is lack of commitment. Well, that's infidelity and also and also emotional neglect. Okay. What does lack of commitment mean to you, Andrew? I have no idea what it means. You tell me. That's not infidelity, right? Because
00:44:28
Andrew Wilsoninfidelity doesn't show a lack of commitment. Does infidelity show a lack of commitment? So, not coming home by [ __ ] 10. What? What are you talking about? So tell me, what does that mean? Lack of commitment. You tell me. I You're the one who made the claim.
00:44:42
Andrew WilsonYou're the one who said it was irreconcilable differences. That's the number one reason they file divorces is right. But that's not the reason people actually file for divorce. Okay. So the reasons that they give you're saying that the number one reason women women
00:44:54
SPEAKER_02give is infidelity. Infidelity, emotional neglect, and poor communication. Okay. Where can I find the statistics? I don't remember, man. I I brought all the statistics. You didn't bring any. I didn't need to bring any. Yeah, cuz you're making [ __ ] up. What am
00:45:06
Andrew WilsonI making up? Anything you say? Cuz I can you can't prove it. What have I said that I made up about the the finances that did how do I make something up when I say I don't know for sure. Okay. Well, you said it's significant. That is true. It is significant. Okay. Well, how can
00:45:17
Andrew Wilsonyou prove that? Well, what does significant mean? Uh let's see. Statistically, let's just see if we can find this. I am not seeing infidelity is number one answer on any of these.
00:45:31
Raphael GomezOkay. Um [Music] Number one reason I'm seeing is financial problems. That's not the number one reason. And you've also said it's not the number one reason. That's what I'm seeing. Okay. But I'm ready for
00:45:44
Andrew Wilsona counterfactual. Okay, fine. Let's just concede that I don't know what I'm talking about. The point is it's not irreconcilable differences. People file for a reason. Well, we're talking past each other because you we were talking about divorce and I said that that they file for irreconcilable differences. You
00:45:58
Andrew Wilsonasked for the meaning behind the irreconcilable difference. I'm fine with that. I just don't think it's infidelity. I think that's incorrect. And when I just looked, it is. You made the claim that it is, but you can't tell me where I You're blaming women for
00:46:10
Raphael Gomezfiling for divorce, making it sound like it's just some fly by the night thing they decided to do. There's typically a reason. And you read something. I'm not saying that there's not reasons. Okay. The question then why do you blame women for single mother? The question The question is whether or not there's good
00:46:23
Andrew WilsonWell, first of all, can you be a single mother and never be married? Sure. But where's the father in this scenario? Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Don't courts adjust towards women even when they aren't married. Do you know one in
00:46:35
Andrew Wilsonthree children born out of wedlock don't see their father past the age of three? Did you know that? Why? You tell me. I'm I'm I'm waiting. No, you tell me. If you Why do I need to tell you when I ask you a question? Why?
00:46:48
Andrew WilsonBecause single motherhood is not just a female problem. Okay, but why do they not have access to Because men tend to abandon children. Can you demonstrate that? I think I just did. How? 33% of children
00:47:01
Raphael Gomezdon't see their father past age three. But that doesn't prove that it's because the men don't want to. Okay. How many men file for custody of the child in a in child court?
00:47:12
Raphael GomezUh I don't know the stats off the top of my head. We can look. 95% of them are filed uh without contest from the father. And the 4% that do typically do get it. So if 95% of men aren't fighting for their child, I think you can look at
00:47:24
Andrew Wilsonmen for the problem. Oh, I see. Okay. So, let's back up. Um, tell me something. Who can actually have children? Men or women? Women. Okay. Are
00:47:35
Andrew Wilsonthese women being raped? No. Okay. So, they have uh the responsibility of making sure that they don't get pregnant, right? I think two people have the responsibility to make sure they
00:47:46
Andrew Wilsondon't get somebody pregnant as Do you agree with me that it is the case that most men will sleep with most women, but most women won't sleep with most men? So
00:47:56
Andrew Wilsonwhat? So if that's the case, right, then women have greater access than men do, don't they? Sure. So So if that's the case, why are they granting access to men who abandon their kids? How do they
00:48:08
Andrew Wilsonknow they're going to abandon their kids? Well, hang on. That's so weird, though. Wait a second. Let's back up. Mhm. They they're the ones who have the sexual access, right? So if they don't if they don't know, why are they sleeping with these men? They're the
00:48:21
Andrew Wilsonones who get pregnant, not the men. And men are the ones that get them pregnant. Yeah. So what? They're a part of the equation. So what? That's a part of the equation. Yeah. But women are the ones who get to access that. And men are the
00:48:33
Andrew Wilsonones that access it. Okay. Can men can men have abortions? No. Can men force women to have abortions? No. Do you believe women should be able to have abortions? Well, if that's the case, right, that you believe women's women
00:48:45
Andrew Wilsonought to be able to have abortions. Men ought not to have any say on whether or not women have abortions, then women are the ones who ultimately have 100% access around reproduction, not men. So, men have no responsibility in your eyes. How could they have a responsibility if
00:48:58
Andrew Wilsonthey're not allowed to make the choice of if the child's even here or not? If you got somebody pregnant, would you abandon them? Do I form a secular worldview or do I form a Christian one? Do Christian people abandon their children? No. No, they don't. All All Christians are perfect. No, no, no, no.
00:49:11
Andrew WilsonUnder Christian ethics, you're not to abandon your children. Sure. Okay. So, only secular people abandon their children. No, that's not what I said. What did I just say? Christian ethics bans you from Under Christian ethics, you're ought not do that, right? Is
00:49:24
Raphael Gomezought not the same as do they don't. Should anyone do that? Do Do I think so? Yeah. Under Christian ethics, no. Even secular, do you think people should even if you're secular Christian ethics? I don't think secular people should. And I think secular people also don't think they should abandon their children. So,
00:49:38
Andrew Wilsonwhat's the point? But they can kill them. I don't think it's killing. Oh, I know, right? So, you don't think it's killing? No, it's not. It's not. Okay. Got it. They say kill them, but they think that they shouldn't have. It's a horrible framing. That's a horrible. A
00:49:50
Andrew Wilsongreat compelling reason here. If the idea is that um that these women, they're get they're getting knocked up. They're the ones who have complete and total access to who sleeps with them. They're not getting raped. And they have
00:50:03
Raphael Gomezthe choice as to whether or not they abort or not abort. Yeah. But someone also wasn't. But does the man have a choice? The man was the man has a choice to not impregnate a woman. Now the man has a choice to not Does the man have the choice to keep the baby?
00:50:17
Andrew WilsonNot if the woman does the man have the choice to make the woman pay him child support and keep the baby. How much is the average child support? Can you answer my question? I just went no answer my [ __ ] I just I just said no. Okay. Okay, let's back up. How about
00:50:29
Andrew Wilsonthen? How about you listen? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's back up. Well, I said can you answer my question and you said no. You can see how I could perceive that as you saying, I'm not going to answer your question, right? Yes. No, even the moderator thought that was the case.
00:50:41
Andrew WilsonOkay, so let's back up. You do believe that it is the case that men can't force women to have their children. Correct. But women can force men to take care of
00:50:52
Andrew Wilsontheir children. That's correct. Okay. How is that fair? I'm not saying it's fair. Okay. So then what is the ins? So then if men didn't want to have that child, why should they be held to account take care of it? Because it's
00:51:04
Andrew Wilsontheir child. What? Because it is their child. I'm super confused. But they didn't have a say. Doesn't matter. It's their child. Should they be able to have a say? I don't think so.
00:51:16
Andrew WilsonBut you just said it's not fair. Yeah, it's not fair. So what? They had a child. That's their child. They should take care of it and not abandon it. So, okay. So, to get this right, then women should be able to kill men's children if
00:51:27
Andrew Wilsonthey want. Right. Stop framing it as killing or hang on. Or keep them if they want. And the man has to pay child support for the child. That's correct. Right. That's correct. And and you think women should get to make that choice? 100%. Why should we let the women make
00:51:40
Andrew Wilsonthat choice? Because they're the ones that have to, you know, conceive. So, Got it. So, they're the ones have to conceive. So, they're the ones making the choice. Yep. So, therefore, it's their responsibility. Anything else? No, because the the father is also part of
00:51:52
Raphael Gomezthe responsibility. Wait, I I'm sorry. Who's making the choice? They can have the child, but the father should take care of their child. And you don't disagree with that, do you? Do you disagree with me or not? Do you disagree
00:52:03
Andrew Wilsonwith the from a secular angle? Why not? Because it makes no sense to me. It makes total sense. If you have a child, you should take care of it. Well, let's try this again. I just walked you through the logic, though. [ __ ] the logic. I'm asking you. Do you think Do you think a secular person should take
00:52:17
Andrew Wilsoncare of the child that they have? Does a Christian think that? Of course. And you don't think secular people do? Well, I can't see how a secularist could justify it. No. Not if you're making the claim. So, you made the claim here. From my worldview, if you have a child, you
00:52:28
Andrew Wilsonshould take care of it. Period. Why? Because that's my worldview. Why though? Because it's your child. You are part of it. I don't need to justify it for you. Because when we walk around the logic, here's what we end up with. You say women have complete and total access.
00:52:40
Andrew WilsonShould be able to kill a man's kid, right? Or should be able to bring it to bear and make sure that the man takes care of the kid, but the man can't tell the woman that she has to have the kid even when she's pregnant. Right. That's
00:52:52
Andrew Wilsoncorrect. And if there's a child in the world that that man contributed to, he should take care of it. Okay. So, just to make sure that we got this right, it's an uneven standard for men versus women. If that's the world we live in. Yeah. So, justify why it is that men
00:53:05
Andrew Wilsonshouldn't say [ __ ] that. I don't need to. Okay. Well, then when you ask me, Andrew, don't you think X? And I say, well, you say I can't say from a secular point of view. I say from a secular point of view, I actually can't answer
00:53:17
Andrew Wilsonthe justification. Just remember that neither can you. And I would say most secular people also believe you should take care of a child if you're the one. From the Christian ethical angle, of course. Of course, you're supposed to take care of your children. But from the Christian ethical angle, it's also
00:53:29
Andrew Wilsoncompletely appropriate, right, to put significant pressure on women to not have abortions, meaning men get a say in the choice, right? Well, what's wild to me is that you're complaining about single motherhood and then you're sitting here saying, "Well, men should
00:53:40
Andrew Wilsonsay [ __ ] it." Which is just wild that men should say [ __ ] it if they want. What did I say when you said so men should say [ __ ] it, right? I'm sorry. Do you know what an ought versus a descriptor? What's an ought? Ant is I don't know.
00:53:52
Raphael GomezDid I say that secular men ought do that or did I say I can't I can't think of a justification. You can't think of a justification. Neither can you. But you also don't think single motherhood is a good thing. Correct. That's correct. So why don't you encourage men to take care
00:54:05
Andrew Wilsonof the children? Should we force them to? I think so. Okay. So you think that we should force men to take care of the kids? Correct. That's what child support is. But no, no, no, no, no. That's not
00:54:17
Andrew WilsonWell, that is true that they take it by force, I guess. Yeah, that's what you said. But what I'm talking about force is like should we make them participate as a father? Yes, we should force that.
00:54:29
Andrew WilsonAnd so as long as the court rules that they should, yes. No, that's that's different. I'm not asking about what the court rules. I'm asking, do you think we should force men to participate? I think they should force at least child
00:54:42
Andrew Wilsonsupport. And if No, that's not my question. Well, that's what I'm saying. Should they force men to participate in being a father? Being a father? No. No, no, no, no. Not at the father. If the father is going to be a shitty father,
00:54:55
Andrew Wilsonthen no. Then can you explain to me how it is that if the woman can get child support from the guy, right? And you were not going to force any participation, aren't you pushing single
00:55:07
Raphael Gomezmotherhood? No, you're blaming women for single motherhood. And and you're you're saying they're the ones who have all the choice by your own admission. But the fathers have no part to play in it. And in single motherhood, fathers have no part. Fathers can't make the
00:55:18
Andrew Wilsondetermination as to whether or not they can even have the kid and only the woman can. You you hold an uneven playing field. I have at least a consistent view that women should not be allowed to
00:55:28
Andrew Wilsonabort and men ought to actually be made to participate in their own children's life. That's my consistent worldview. Your worldview is inconsistent. Okay. You're
00:55:40
Raphael Gomezmaking said that if a man has a child, you're just giving privilege to women. If Sure. If a man has a child, they should take care of it. Do they? That's a different story. I'm saying they should. If women have children, should they take care of it? Yeah. Can they
00:55:52
Andrew Wilsongive it up for adoption? Sure. Okay. Can the man make the woman give or why can't the man give up his parental rights and just walk away? If the woman can. If the woman does, then he can. Well, wait,
00:56:04
Andrew Wilsonthat's really weird. I don't get it. If it is the case that the mother has guardianship of the father's child, she can still put the child up for adoption, right? Sure. Okay. But he can't. If he
00:56:16
Raphael Gomezhas guardianship of the child, he can't. If he has guardianship, well, so he can, too. But if she's a single mom, what gives him guardianship? Well, he doesn't have guardianship. I'm saying if if if a father has guardianship, he can also put up the child for adoption. It's not just
00:56:28
Andrew Wilsona mother. Yeah. But who does it default to? Why does it default to women? Because that's the way the system is set. How is it set that way? Because it's it it has become matrinal rather than patrineal. What does that mean?
00:56:40
Andrew WilsonWhat does that mean? It means from the father, from the mother. No, I know the definition. You always need those words. But why is the family court? Why is it giving it? Because feminists have made huge pushes in order to make it that
00:56:52
Andrew Wilsonway. Feminists have pushed that women get custody of the child. Yeah. Are most judges in family court men or women? In family court, they're men and so they're influenced by feminists. I'm sorry. Wait
00:57:03
Raphael Gomeza second. Are you saying that men can't be feminists? I'm saying that I doubt that the majority of family court Are you saying that men can't be feminist? I'm saying that I doubt all the family court judges are so influenced by family
00:57:15
Andrew Wilsoncourt judges have to adhere to the law or do they make the law? I'm not sure if they make the law or not. They have to adhere to the law. They don't make it. Right. Yeah. So family court judges are just adhering to the law. Right. And what's the law say? Yeah. The law you So
00:57:27
Andrew Wilsonhere's what happened. We used to have what are called kovature laws. Covature laws actually forced men to take care of their families. That very same thing that you want. Right. Of course, this also made children their property and
00:57:39
Andrew Wilsonwomen, right, were also part of the man then, right? That was how it went. But guess what? They had to take care of their family or they went to [ __ ] jail. That's what happened. Marriages stayed together about 90 95%. And you
00:57:50
Andrew Wilsonknow what happened? Feminists really pushed real [ __ ] hard for the average default laws. And here's what the average default laws were. Oh, the average default laws were saying basically on average the default is
00:58:03
Andrew Wilsongoing to go to women. Right now, there's a whole series of laws I can pull up and go through, but yes, this was pushed by feminists. So that there was default laws which pushed pushed literally that
00:58:14
Raphael Gomezwomen default by default had custody. Yes, that is correct. That is not how it works because if a father if a father tries to get custody of the child, they often do get it. But but most so
00:58:27
Andrew Wilsonfeminists have failed then. No, bro. There's been since men's rights movement started, especially in about the mid200s, there have been reforms to the laws. Male custody has quadrupled
00:58:38
Andrew Wilsonbecause of men's rights advocacy groups. And yes, quadrupled. And yes, I can grab you that stat if you want. I'm not saying it has quadrupled because these laws have now begun to get rolled back.
00:58:50
Raphael GomezBut it used to actually just be a straight default. A straight default. How long? Because I my understanding of this is most fathers aren't filing for custodial guardianship of the child. You're talking you have to understand
00:59:02
Andrew Wilsonthat you're looking at it from a historic prism that doesn't make any sense. You're talking about modern laws and the way that modern custody arrangements happen. It wasn't always
00:59:11
Andrew Wilsonthis case. The case used to be actually that children went to the men. That was the that was the old laws under coverture laws, right? that changed with
00:59:22
Raphael Gomezfeminism and radical feminism pushing for those laws to be changed. So you're saying there was a time when the children were raised there were more single fathers than single mothers. No, there just wasn't really any erosion of marriage. Okay. Then why did you say
00:59:34
Raphael Gomezthat? Why did you make that point? You made the point that back in the day men were getting custody of the children, but then there were still more single mothers. No, there wasn't very many single mothers either. Okay. But they outnumbered the single fathers. No,
00:59:47
Andrew Wilsonthere wasn't. There you listen, these marriages stayed together, but under the law, it was true under the kovature laws that the child was the property or was at least associative property to the father. Yes. I'm glad we're having this
01:00:00
Raphael Gomezdiscussion cuz it goes back to the point that I've been trying to make that. Can you explain though your logic there? I'm trying to understand the logic. No, I I want to get back to the thing we're talking about. No, no, I want to get back to the thing we're talking about. Hang on, hang on. I'm not hanging on. It's not about escaping. Before I let
01:00:13
Andrew Wilsonyou escape, I just want to get back to this logic. This is the point that I'm trying to make. Why would it be that there was more? Hang on. Stop. I don't want to. I just want to finish. I want to get back to the thing. If you answer this last question, I don't give a [ __ ] I want to get to the next thing. Why won't you answer my question? Because