Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Oliver | Whatever Debates #18
Date: 2025-05-17
Duration: 5h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_04Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:10
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Oliver N House (Oberlin triple-major)
00:45:55
Key MomentOliver admits prefers experienced women; Andrew labels it 'certified pre-f***ed woman worship'
02:17:48
Key MomentAndrew says 'woman, get me a beer' to production staff; Oliver stands up in protest
02:39:48
ControversyAge gap debate: Oliver calls 41yo dating 18yo predatory but cannot give precise cut-off. 40+ min argument.
05:16:00
Key MomentOliver apologizes for reckless language implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies
05:32:42
AgreementOliver concedes Andrew won on rhetoric but reaffirms feminist vision
Topics Discussed
00:00:10
Opening Statements
Andrew lists feminist-caused male burdens. Oliver defines feminism as equal rights, cites dual-income poverty protection.
00:33:36
Promiscuity and Virginity Debate
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Oliver: prefers experienced women. 'Certified pre-f***ed' exchange.
02:39:48
Age Gap Relationships
Oliver: 41-year-olds dating 18-year-olds is predatory but can't specify age cut-off. Andrew refuses to move on for ~40 min.
04:25:54
Misandry and Kill All Men
Oliver: 'kill all men' is imprecise frustration, less harmful than misogyny. Andrew challenges the differential impact claim.
05:16:00
Jim Bob PDF Implication
Andrew confronts Oliver about implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies. Oliver apologizes.
05:26:54
Closing Statements
Andrew claims total victory. Oliver concedes rhetoric loss but reaffirms feminist vision.
Transcript
Page 5 of 7
03:57:48
Andrew Wilsonfilled it up, would you have let her? Yes. Why? because you didn't associate it with hey get me a beer woman. If you decided that you wanted to show a contrast between something you didn't believe where you just said you believed
03:58:00
Oliver N Housethat that was a joke and now suddenly though you didn't want to be associated with it's pure insincerity. People can tell jokes that are bad that reinforce bad things that I don't want to be associated with. Nothing was reinforced
03:58:12
Andrew Wilsonwhich is being bad because you didn't believe it. That's what makes it insincere. Most of your audience does believe it. You don't believe it. That's what makes it insincere. You, Oliver, didn't believe uh anything other than
03:58:23
Andrew Wilsonthat was a joke. That's what makes it a virtue signal. How is that not the case? Is that insincere? No, it's not insincere. Oh, okay. Here, let's let We got chats coming. Let's try to get through the chats. We got Josh Brooks
03:58:35
SPEAKER_00here. Josh Brooks donated $69. Thank you, Josh. I was busy cutting down a tree. What did I miss? Is he like the guy yesterday where he will argue aside but then say he doesn't mind if that
03:58:47
Andrew Wilsonargument is conceded due to some nonsense factors? I got a question for Josh just real quick. Josh, when you cut down your tree, when you make your uh initial notch, well, not your initial, but your your final cutting notch before
03:58:59
Andrew Wilsonyou saw all the way through. Do you cut your notch bottom up or top down? I I I got to know. I just I got to know. And
03:59:09
SPEAKER_00he has a followup here at $69. Thank you. Watching the back and forth for the past half hour has answered my previous question. Thanks for being here for
03:59:20
SPEAKER_00another banger debate. Andrew Brian and Andrew look slimmer. Da yam mah. I have been losing weight and it's it shows. It does show. Appreciate it. We have wizard coming. Then we have Hey you. Then we
03:59:31
SPEAKER_00have I love gothic women. Okay. Uh, thank you. Wizard Wizard donated $69. Andrew presents his views regardless of how it may get clipped.
03:59:43
SPEAKER_00You should not be so scared to express your view, too. It's funny. I like you. Please fill this survey so I see which stage of life. All right. Thank you, Wizard. Appreciate
03:59:56
SPEAKER_00it. Good character. We got We got some more coming through. Hey, you. Thank you. You donated 69. You guys want to get one instream.com is the predatory practice in league with the lenders. But
04:00:07
SPEAKER_00I bet Oliver thinks women should go to college to get a useless degree where they can be indoctrinated with feminist lies. Quick response if you'd like on this. Go ahead, Oliver. I have no
04:00:17
Brian Atlasresponse to that. Excuse me, not my wife. Can you grab me a beer? Is that number three or number? That's number four, right? This is number four. Yeah. All right. We have uh I appreciate it. I Oh, this didn't come up here. This I
04:00:29
SPEAKER_00love Gothic women. Thank you. V. Gothic women donated $69. Andrew and Brian, great FN show, guys. Exclamation mark. Oliver, go touch some grass, girl. Andrew, you are
04:00:41
SPEAKER_00completely destroying this kid. Oliver, go take some testosterone supplements. Andrew, great. Peace out. We actually tested Oliver's uh testosterone. We We
04:00:53
Andrew Wilsonmade him do a blood test before the show. He's actually really high tea. But come on, Oliver. I was I was gassing. He was He was He was like setting that up for you, bro. I was
04:01:04
Brian Atlasgiving you a You could literally have just dunked right there. It was like because No, look, we we administer blood tests before the show. Oliver, his his uh testosterone blood level or whatever
04:01:15
Andrew Wilsonthat whatever it is very high. What I lack in testosterone I make up for in bitterness.
04:01:23
SPEAKER_00All right, we have Giovani here. Giovani. Giovani JD donated $69 trying to teach Oliver what the line drawing problem is and why the line is
04:01:36
SPEAKER_02irrelevant and the moral justification is what matters. Uh thank you. Wait, what? And why the line? Yeah, he's asking what's a completely straight line. I see. Got it.
04:01:45
SPEAKER_00We have Marine Baby N. Thank you so much, Marine. By the way, Gioani is awesome. Marine Baby N $69. He's kind of
04:01:55
SPEAKER_00talking [ __ ] to you. toric GDP good baby's bad. Also, Oliver certified precoc. Okay. Leftist rhetoric GDP good baby's
04:02:07
Brian AtlasOh, okay. I see. All right. Uh, thank you for that, Marine Baby. We have Oliver Oliver hater back. He's said the same one. Oliver hater donated 69. You want me to skip this one? Sure. Oliver,
04:02:20
SPEAKER_00would you address the time that you allegedly exposed yourself without consent to a young woman leading you to get cancelled on Tik Tok? Yeah, we're not going to Sorry. Sorry. I'm not here for like a little bit of
04:02:33
Andrew Wilsonlike you're you're a doofus or things like that. I think that that's fine and rhetoric for debate, but I'm not interested in trying to dive into this guy's personal life. Uh Oliver, would you like refill on
04:02:44
SPEAKER_00water? Um Whoa. Top. Can you top it off? donated $69. The final notch has to come from the top down while holding tension with the rope in the fall direction. That way, the
04:02:57
Brian Atlaschain doesn't get stuck from the bottom up. Weight is a mother effer. Yo, uh Josh Brooks, thank you so much, man. We have uh I've seen Well, I swear I've seen people cut that notch from the
04:03:09
Andrew Wilsonbottom up. Like, I've I'm I'm almost sure of it. I mean, you're probably right. I don't know. You know, I've cut down some trees and I always do it from the top down. But got Lockavius here. This is for
04:03:21
Oliver N Housedonated $69. Should a woman's past not matter slash does body count matter? Into the mic if you can. It can matter to particular people. Like I don't I don't really have a problem if someone's
04:03:34
Oliver N Houselike, "Yeah, like sex is really meaningful to me. You know, I I view it as something with, you know, deeply connective between two people and I want someone who shares that view of it and they want to engage in that type of
04:03:44
SPEAKER_00thing." So Glockavius donated 69. Should a woman's past not matter slash does body count matter? Would you
04:03:54
Oliver N Housedate a woman with 100 plus/1,000 plus bodies? I mean so I think that person would likely have interests and things that divulged so much of me and who I am
04:04:04
Andrew Wilsonthat probably not. But I don't think but it's not because of that. Well, I mean it could be because they chose to spend more time doing that instead of other things. What if they held all the interest that you hold, but one of their
04:04:15
Oliver N Househobbies was to [ __ ] a lot of men? Yeah. Okay, it's fine. I You would date you would date them? I I would not close myself off to the fact just because of that. Now, obviously, that's So, you would date them? I would be open to dating them, but it wouldn't be a
04:04:29
SPEAKER_00disqualifier. It would not be a disqualifier. No. Okay. All right. We have He's just sent in a bunch. Octavius donated $69. Is it straight to date a transgender woman? Would you date a
04:04:41
Andrew Wilsontransgender woman? I'm not I'm not commenting. Would you? I wouldn't. Would you? I would not. Do you want to comment on the first question? I would say that it's gay if
04:04:51
Oliver N Houseyou suck a man or a woman's dick. Okay, cool. Would you? I have no opinion on that matter. Just yes or no? I have no opinion on that matter. You don't have an opinion? I'm not going to tell someone. Do you ever have any opinions, bro? I do. I've expressed a lot of my
04:05:03
Oliver N Houseopinions. And it's not if you say, "Well, I don't I I'm not going to I I don't really care what it's called because I think it doesn't become more legitimate or less legitimate whether
04:05:12
Andrew Wilsonit's straight or gay." So, when you're trying to homosexual or heterosexual, so the word homosexual has been used differently. Usually, you're correct. No, it's not. It's never been used differently. It
04:05:26
Oliver N Housealways means the same thing. Same sex. Sex. Okay, cool. Right. When has it ever actually like Now I'm curious. When has it ever been used for? Well, I'm I'm I'm explaining to you what people use it for
04:05:36
Oliver N Housenow. They use it right now to express samesex sex. Sometimes people now, if a trans man is dating a an a sis man, then they would consider that a gay
04:05:47
Oliver N Houserelationship. It doesn't matter if it fits the definition of homosexual. I don't care. I don't really care how people choose to live their lives. I'm not going to tell them, well, technically it's not this. Like, I don't
04:05:59
Brian Atlasjust doesn't sure pertain to me. We got uh Texas vet Andrew. Thank you for your patience with this. Uh more Okay, that's what he said. Not beer makes it better. Look, beer makes it easier. That's why that's why I brought some beer in this
04:06:12
Brian Atlasmorning or this afternoon. So, I don't know how you keep your cool, bro. I would be catching charges right now if I tried talking to this guy. Well, let's not I don't think he's a Listen, like
04:06:21
Brian Atlashe's young. You know, in 10 years, he might be just like me. He might be just like me and not think it like right now. Oliver says he hopes not. All right, thank you for that vet. Uh, Robert
04:06:34
Brian AtlasGardner, how often does Oliver put on his lipstick, eyeshadow, and high heels? I imagine at least once a week. FOS, he she is okay. All right, we have
04:06:46
Brian AtlasDaniel Stein. Thank you, Robert, for that previous message. Daniel Stein uh Australian 69 somehow bending over for for woman is Oh no for women. No we
04:06:57
Andrew Wilsoncan't read it bro. Oh should I dude if you bro if you bring in the the woman women without using the pearl right. It's just done. We're not reading it. It's even worse that it's in text form. Yeah. Hey that's the thing like that's
04:07:10
Andrew Wilsonwhat makes it so that we just can't read it. Let's not screw him over though. No no no. He screwed himself over. Sorry Daniel. Send it back in with women. I'm making the executive call here. I'll give Brian the $69. No way. I'm sorry,
04:07:21
Brian AtlasDaniels. Andrew Australian, which Andrew has some gripes with the the Aussies, so I got to defer to him on this one. We have Rachel Wilson. Uh, imagine Oliver's outrage if he knew I serve Andrew all this is his uh
04:07:34
Brian AtlasAndrew's wife, by the way. All his meals and drinks, submit to his authority, and love him dearly. It's terrible. Glad you all are happy. You know, I'm pretty happy. Okay, good. That's She's pretty awesome, I must admit. Good. You know
04:07:47
Andrew Wilsonwhat I do with her? You know what I do though? When when she sells her, it's like it's like she just got her her book put on Kindle form, which she's been fighting for forever, right? By the way, it's a cult feminism. All of you go buy it. Here's why. Because when and this is
04:08:00
Andrew Wilsonno [ __ ] I promise you this is true. When my wife gets her book royalties monthly, I take all of them and go spend it on guns. And even if she wants to prioritize it for something else, I just do it as like
04:08:12
Andrew Wilsona petty form of revenge because I spent all those years taking good care of everybody, I just want to like I just want to like rub it in her face. Like I'm just taking this from you cuz I
04:08:22
SPEAKER_00think it's funny. Oliver, what the [ __ ] Yeah. Uh, okay. Here, a couple more chats and we'll get back to the debate. Lucy donated $69. Wow. Hey, Brian. I to
04:08:34
SPEAKER_00my husband. He had the biggest smile on his face. Oliver, you have to hold women accountable for their actions or else they will walk all over you. True. I don't think that I'm not holding women accountable for their actions. If a
04:08:45
Oliver N Housewoman lies to me, if a woman is deceptive, if a woman doesn't, you know, do what we agree upon or walks back on arrangements, that is unfair. Then obviously
04:08:57
Brian Atlas$69 is the kind of man that wakes up early to make breakfast for his girlfriend's boyfriend. H uh by the way, if you guys want to get a message in streamlabs.com/ whatever
04:09:09
SPEAKER_00$69 TTS, we have a few more then we're going to get right back into it. Ogle, we're going to get to you in just a moment. Sorry for the delay here. There's more to get back into a little bit. Red Bill Ranger donated $69. Thank
04:09:22
SPEAKER_00you, Red Pill Ranger. When women are younger, they have all the leverage. As men get older and build themselves up, the roles reverse. This is what women are really mad at. Let's be real. Women
04:09:34
Brian Atlasare the bigger predators. Wow. Okay. Red pill ranger. Do you have a quick response to that, Oliver? Or no. No. Okay. All right. We have Glavius
04:09:44
SPEAKER_00here. Donated $69. Thank you, Glavius. Oliver, you are a misandry apologist. Why do you defend and handwave away misandress statements by women like men are trash
04:09:56
Brian Atlasor kill all men? I discussed this on the previous debate podcast episode. I don't need to rehash all of that again. Well, I think it might it would be fair to did Did it with Jim Bob? Remember talking
04:10:07
Andrew Wilsonabout briefly at the end, but this is a new debate. Do you want to touch on it? Not really. I mean, Andrew, if you want to inquire. I mean, I' I've already asked this previously, but I'll ask it
04:10:18
Andrew Wilsonagain. Why is it that it's misogynist when men say things like, "Oh, I don't know. Go get me a beer woman." versus like, "Kill all men." Okay. Is that misandry? I believe it could be a type of
04:10:31
Oliver N Housemisandry. However, I don't think they are on the same equivalent level because men are not killing women and they don't hate all men. So, women do kill Yeah, they do. At at the at the rates that men
04:10:43
Andrew Wilsonkill women. Are are these women? Well, this is interesting. Are are these women are these women who are saying this largely? First of all, first of all, the the requisite shouldn't be whether or not they kill them. That's like the kill. Well, kill if they're saying kill
04:10:57
Andrew Wilsonall men, they're not killing them. If they say they women do do actually kill men at much higher rates than are reported. Usually they do it through the medical field, right? Like most women uh
04:11:08
Andrew Wilsonwho are like uh psychopathic serial killers and whatnot. Mhm. What positions do you think they're in? I don't know, dude. What do you think? Do you think they're in caregiver positions? Sure. Oftentimes, yes. But when it comes to
04:11:19
Andrew Wilsonlike killing men also, psycho stalker women have killed men. famous, but also when we're talking about impact, even if it's
04:11:30
Andrew Wilsonnot, it promotes society this general feeling that men can be devalued, that's still really bad. Even if they don't have the power to enact death on men, isn't it? I think that when women say
04:11:43
Oliver N Housethese things, they're not expressing that they hate all men. They hate the experiences that they've had with some men. So then, wouldn't that be the case with like white and black people? I mean, we've gotten to this before. No,
04:11:54
Andrew Wilsonbecause there is there a systemic issue of violence from black people against white people? Oh, wait a second. When it comes to violence between men and women, just to make sure I get this right,
04:12:05
Andrew Wilsonyou're making the case that because you think men perpetuate the majority of violence towards women. Correct. That women collectively, if they have the experience to try to devalue men based
04:12:15
Andrew Wilsonon that, that's acceptable. devalue is different than expressing their disdain for the way that they've been treated in imperfect language. Then isn't it the case that blacks perpetuate far more violence towards whites than whites
04:12:27
Oliver N Housetowards blacks? Okay. Oliver, isn't that the truth, Oliver? Mhm. Isn't it in if we're looking at interracial, let me explain. If we're looking at interracial instead of intracial, you are correct.
04:12:38
Oliver N HouseThere is a disparity. However, who are you more likely to be killed by in terms of race? Most likely blacks per capita someone of your own race. This is factually the case. 85% of white people
04:12:49
Oliver N Houseare killed by other white people. 90% of black people. What race is more likely per capita to kill you? You. Me and you. White. Cuz we're not black. So we don't live in those largely live in those neighborhoods. It's proximity crime. A
04:13:02
Andrew Wilsonlot of this is proximity crime. Andrew, hang on. A lot of this is proximity. If it is the case though that when uh white people collectively deal with black people and they're getting mostly
04:13:13
Andrew Wilsonviolent responses and the data the data the data shows that they uh get are getting vi like women wait a second women don't mostly get violent responses
04:13:23
Andrew Wilsonfrom men. Women overwhelmingly do mostly violent responses from men. Hold on. A lot of women do you think Hold on. I'm curious. Do you think No, no, no. I need this answer. Do women mostly get violent
04:13:35
Andrew Wilsonresponses from men or not? Not all men. No. No. No. No. From just generally do women generally get violent responses from men. They have the experience of
04:13:45
Andrew Wilsonit. Yes. Do so. So So just so we're clear, Oliver says women generally get violent responses from men. Probably not. Most of the time. I'm not claiming. So then they don't. So then women don't generally get violent responses from
04:13:58
Andrew Wilsonmen. No. No. No. We're clarifying it. Now I want it clarified. Do women do they or do they not generally get violent responses from men on like every day just ever? We're talking about are we talking about cat calling? Are we
04:14:11
Andrew Wilsontalking about harassment? Are we talking about any criteria you want? Whatever criteria you decide on, do they generally get violent responses from men? So I mean probably not violent. No. Okay. Why didn't you [ __ ] answer? So,
04:14:24
Andrew Wilsonis it the case then that if it is the case when it comes to uh you know uh white versus black crime for instance or murder inter interraially between the two who's perpetuating it though? Let me
04:14:35
Andrew Wilsonlet me just hang on. Hang on. Stop. Stop. Isn't it the case that it's also true that generally whites aren't getting like they're generally they're not being responded to by violence by
04:14:46
Oliver N Houseblack people? Right. Mhm. Correct. Let me explain. Can I say okay Andrew? Do you think a majority of white people, like if you were to ask white people, have a negative violent or harassment encounter that they can explain at the
04:14:58
Oliver N Househands of a black person? A majority of white people, um, if they interact with black people, if they do, just in general, do you think that they have an experience, a negative experience? Most white people, if you were to ask them, is it like a
04:15:12
Andrew Wilsonpervasive issue that you think if you asked most white people in society, if they're if they're around black people a lot, I think that a lot of them would say that. Yes. Okay. And who do you think they mostly have bad experiences with? Black men or black women largely.
04:15:25
Oliver N HouseIf we're talking about crime, if we're talking about violence, both. Okay. Who overwhelmingly though? I don't even think overwhelm I think it would be probably like maybe like 7030. Okay. I I don't know the statistics on that. I don't know. I'm just I would say so my
04:15:38
Oliver N Housepoint in all of this and look I just I don't I feel like we're getting so far away from this is just consistency. No. So, if we're talking specifically about this whole man, whether you should fear men, it's it's always it's still men,
04:15:50
Oliver N Houseyou know what I mean? Even if you try to change it to a racial demographic, it's still the men who are doing most of the harm. I see. So, so it's a man problem, not Okay. Okay. Hang on. Let's back up
04:16:01
Andrew Wilsonthough. Okay. Uh, do you agree that you're a gender abolitionist? No, you're not. I'm not a gender abolitionist. Okay. I still think there can be men. We're talking about groups though you would agree that we are talking broadly
04:16:12
Andrew Wilsonin groups and when we say men verse women. Sure. That's group identity. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And ra racially also we're talking about group identity. Yes. Okay. So if we're talking about
04:16:25
Andrew Wilsongroup identity, why is it okay for us to make classifications on group identity between men and women but not via race? Because it's not black women who are doing the harm. It's still men. The common denominator is still the common
04:16:37
Andrew Wilsondenominator is still men. So, do you think that like white women for instance, right, would experience greater amounts of harm from black women than they would from white women if they categorize the experiences between both?
04:16:50
Andrew WilsonNo, I don't know the data. I I don't know. Probably not. No. So, if they were around lots of black women and lots of white women, do you think they would report negative more negative experiences from black women or white women? They might, but that doesn't
04:17:03
Andrew Wilsonnecessarily It would actually be a racial thing, wouldn't it? That would be a racial thing asking questions that neither of us know the answer to. I do know the answer to this. Yes, it is the case that if you have, and this is the
04:17:15
Andrew Wilsoncase almost trivially with any race, if you were to take almost any race and put them predominantly where there's a lot of another race, they're going to have a lot of problems. Generally speaking, they're going to have a lot of problems.
04:17:26
Andrew WilsonHowever, the racialism which is fully charged in this nation, it does appear that people do have a lot more issues on the white black front when it comes to white people being discriminated against by blacks. And so, because this is the
04:17:39
Andrew Wilsoncase, when you're talking about group identity, you say, "No, it's all men." It's like, "No, it's not all men." In fact, there's lots and lots of white women who report these negative outcomes when they are dealing with black women
04:17:51
Andrew Wilsonand white men who say the negative outcomes with black men. Now we have a group. Yeah. Now it's not just men verse women, is it Oliver? Oliver, is it just men verse women? Then if you have the
04:18:03
Oliver N Housegroup, I still think it is because I am not convinced of this idea that there is a mass amount of black women who are like causing violence against women. Never said that. So then it it's not
04:18:16
Andrew Wilsonabout the women part. I don't believe that the case of the matter is is that all if you say it's just based on experience right you agree with me not not every woman or even close to every
04:18:27
Andrew Wilsonwoman's been essay not not every but I think it's a large proportion and if based on but if there's less men around there's going to be less essay sure okay same thing is going to happen within racial
04:18:40
Andrew Wilsonidentitarianism if it is the case that we group by white versus black if white women are reporting more negative um you know problems when they are around groups of black women. White men are
04:18:51
Andrew Wilsonreporting more problems when they're around groups of of black men or black women. Okay? Right? Why is that group identity not now valid for them to make that claim of egregiousness towards
04:19:02
Oliver N Housetheir group? Because once again, and I've said this already, I don't you you have said that black women that do you think most white women here we go. Do
04:19:13
Andrew Wilsonyou think most white women can cite a negative experience that she's h that she's had at the hands of a black woman if they're around a lot of black women? Okay. But most aren't. Yeah. But that would be the same trivially true case with
04:19:25
Andrew Wilsonwomen. Women are always around men and you can't get away from it. Yeah. But that's the same trivially true case when it comes to men. Mo if if you if women are not introduced to a large amount of men, their chances for these negative
04:19:37
Andrew Wilsonexperiences drastically decrease. It doesn't have to be. So you would you could say we could have like a gender segregated society if it's entirely women. Let me give you examples. All women schools um you know all women sports teams all women the
04:19:51
Andrew Wilsonchances of you having negative experiences with men drastically out there. I agree. So then what are you talking about then? I don't you don't know what you're talking about Andy. Okay. So, if it is the case that if you can segregate by the sexes, which we do
04:20:03
Andrew Wilsonall the [ __ ] time, and it decreases the negative experience that you have with the opposite sex, and you say that it's perfectly acceptable for women to be validated by saying they're having egregious experiences with men, why
04:20:15
Andrew Wilsonwould it not then be the same exact case along racial lines to say, "I'm having negative experiences, and most people are reporting negative experiences with this race." Why is that not acceptable? Because it wouldn't be on the basis of race that they're having the negative
04:20:28
Andrew Wilsonexperience. having the negative experiences based on the fact that you are this race that that's the only race I'm having the negative experience with. How's that not based on race? I don't think that they would only be having
04:20:40
Andrew Wilsonthat negative experience with people of those. Is this one way women aren't only having negative experiences with men? But when we're talking about men versus women, we're talking about the negative experiences they have with men. Same
04:20:49
Oliver N Housething would be applicable to race. Yeah. Wouldn't it? No. Why? Once again, I I'm I'm not going to explain this to you again. Explain it again. Use real small
04:20:59
Oliver N Housewords. No, I was explaining it. Use real small words. Race and sex are not the same. Oh, gee, I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay. Because when we're talking about
04:21:08
Oliver N Housespecifically regarding sex and the threat that men pose to women, yeah, it's actually the case in the real world. Now, we're not talking about if concocting if in the hypothetical that
04:21:20
Oliver N Houseyou're talking about, then I guess if if if white women or if a woman was around primarily um black people and they were consistently arily they just had a lot of experiences with black people and they were negative and it would make
04:21:33
Andrew Wilsonsense for them to be wary of them. I'm not. Same thing. Same thing with white men and black men or white men and black women if they've only had that. It makes sense why they would make a heristic. And so if it is the case that if the
04:21:44
Andrew Wilsonhoristic from uh whites who are like pulled and things like that is that they generally seem to have bad experiences when it comes to black people, they're completely validated in that, right? If
04:21:56
Oliver N Houseit's the case that they actually are, but they're not. Point. I've already talked about it. 85% of white people are killed by other white people. Bro,
04:22:07
Andrew Wilsonthat's a complete red herring. It's not a red herring. Yeah, it is. If it is the case, even if it's the case, let's just say like whites are killed by other whites at like [ __ ] 20 times the amount. But the majority of whites
04:22:20
Andrew Wilsonreport that the interactions that they have with white people are positive, or at least not negative, but the majority of the interactions they have with black people are negative versus positive. Why the [ __ ] would it matter how many people are killed within which racial
04:22:33
Oliver N Housedemographic? So if a majority of white people are saying they're having negative experiences at the hand% fine if they're saying that for one and you you would have to look into why is that the case? Are they actually experiencing
04:22:46
Oliver N Houseare they actually experiencing more are they actually experiencing violence the perception? It's not the perception because women don't just perceive being assaulted they actually are. Well, no. Here's the thing about that that's so
04:22:58
Oliver N Houseinteresting, right? Is that we have criteria differences, don't we? What do you consider essay to be? SA to be unwanted um sexual contact. Period. I think yeah, it can include a wide
04:23:09
Andrew Wilsonvariety of things. Do you believe that it's considered a non-masculine trait for men to report when a woman has said them? Of course not. Okay. Do you think that socially, even if you don't believe
04:23:20
Andrew Wilsonthat that that is the case? I think Yeah, I think it can be and that's a bad thing and Exactly. We should change that. So is could it be the case that things that you would classify as SA, which is unwanted sexual contact, could happen
04:23:33
Andrew Wilsonsignificantly for men and go unreported? It could go unreported. A majority a majority of essay for men and women goes unreported. So how do you actually know what the numbers are when you say that there's more men essaying women than men or women essaying men? How do you
04:23:45
Oliver N Houseactually know that? Okay. Well, first off, you're talking about something that we just don't have the data on. Then why the [ __ ] are you making the claim, Oliver? What do you mean? I am making the claim because we do it from the data that we do have. Oh, so the data we can't trust because most of it's
04:23:57
Oliver N Houseunreported. [ __ ] brilliant. Do you think Okay, fine, Andrew. Then I'm going to reason from shared premises. Do you think that it is actually the case that the rates of SA are equivalent between men and women? No, I think it's higher
04:24:08
Andrew Wilsonfrom women towards men by your criteria. By your criteria of saying unwanted sexual contact, I think because women can get away with this so much more readily, and you've seen it yourself, and I'll demonstrate it. You ever been to a college party where perhaps like a
04:24:21
Andrew Wilsonwoman approaches a man and like maybe just rubs his shoulders or something like that or does touching on the arms or things like that? Very very common experience for men who are in college. Is it sexual? And here's the thing that's so funny. You can go sexual.
04:24:34
Andrew WilsonYeah, you can go to Honeybadger radio and app sexual is going to be perceived by the person. So maybe most men don't perceive it as sexual. And here's how I know because when the college studies are done, you can look this up. Honeybadger radio on Twitter. Go over
04:24:47
Andrew Wilsonthere and look at Honeybatcher radio studies. They're amazing. Okay. It demonstrates 100% that when college kids are pulled, men report that they are sated at significantly higher amounts
04:24:59
Andrew Wilsonthan women if they use that same criteria as you, unwanted sexual touching. Okay? It's only when we get to things like penetrative and things like this that we have a disparity. So, it's like, no, Oliver, I don't [ __ ] believe you. So, if we're talking about
04:25:12
Oliver N Housejust that generally being a problem, then sure. Then men are at higher rates by your criteria than men. Okay. I think first off, if we're talking about that type of contact, I'm not saying that the
04:25:22
Oliver N Housecontact isn't bad. No one should be touched sexually without their consent. However, when a woman touches a man in that way, how likely do you think it's going to lead to a more egregious form
04:25:34
Andrew Wilsonof essay like penetrating? This is what's so funny is like it's more likely even if it was the case that like if I went to a bear and the bear bit me and it hurt way worse than if a mouse bit
04:25:46
Andrew Wilsonme, I still don't want to [ __ ] get bit by either. Right, Oliver? Sure. I'm not saying either. What are you talking about? All we're talking about is negative experiences. I would be less likely to approach mice who bit me and bears who bit me. So if that's the case,
04:25:59
Oliver N Housewhy would that not be the case racially, Oliver? because I don't think it's a long racial line. I don't think that's what's causing it because you just don't live in reality. That's not what's causing it. Andrew, let me let two chats come through and then uh but it's one of
04:26:11
SPEAKER_00them. Octavius donated 69 again. Thank you. To Oliver, the Missandry apologist saying hatred of men is not as bad as hatred of women is in and of itself sexist. No, that's not waving of
04:26:23
Oliver N HouseMissandry is gross and fuels that which you claim to be against. That's actually not what I said. I didn't say the hatred of men is not as bad as the hatred of women. I'm saying that what most men perceive as women hating them is is not
04:26:34
Andrew Wilsonhatred. They they don't hate them. Obviously, women don't hate all men because they have many men in their lives that they love and things of that nature. Then the same thing is equatable to men. Clearly, men don't hate all women. After all, every woman who is
04:26:47
Oliver N Housemarried and is interested, I'd never said men. Then what are you talk then? How what is this argument then? What is this argument? I don't think I don't think men should say like I don't know like we hate women because that is
04:26:58
Andrew Wilsonassociated with men actually killing and hating women and when women say we hate men that's associated with things like we want to take away their children divorce them in in opportune times
04:27:09
Andrew Wilsoncreate slanderous websites about them do horrible things to their reputations which also will lead to what unaliving who unalivives more men or women yeah okay so so men killing women is the same
04:27:20
Andrew Wilsonas women mistreating men and and unaliv. Even if you were to make the threshold that like the impact was somewhat worse for women than it is for men, you would have to agree that it would still be
04:27:31
Andrew Wilsonmisandressous behavior to make a declaration like kill all men. I think it is imperfect language and I think they ideally ideally Andrew but it's misogyny when men do it right because it
04:27:42
Oliver N Houseactually leads to so does the misandry. How can you say that slander of men when reputation is slander? What? Well, if someone if someone like goes on a slanderous campaign to falsely accuse someone of something like that. Kill all
04:27:54
Oliver N Housemen is slander. Itself is slander, Oliver. How is it not? How is it slander? Because what you're doing is you're saying men deserve to die. No, you're not. That's slandering all men. But that's not what
04:28:06
Oliver N HouseThat's not Do you think people always litally bro? Do you think language is always literal? If I say I don't know how to misinterpret kill all men. Fine, Andrew. If I say I'm so mad I could literally kill you. Or do you think I'm going to kill you? That's sarcasm. Okay,
04:28:19
Andrew Wilsonthen how is this not then? Why would it not be equated to men? What? Why would that not be equated to men who say kill all women? Because the behavior matches the words. The behavior already has bro
04:28:30
Andrew Wilsonthe when you say be. So what you're doing is you're doing a nor a very regular conflationary fallacy. Could it be the case that it is true that men
04:28:41
Andrew Wilsonkill more women than women kill men? And at the same time, when they say kill all women, they're being just as sarcastic as women. Is that not true? That that could be the case. It could be the case.
04:28:51
Andrew WilsonThen demonstrate it's not. So what I'm demonstrating is I think that when men say they hate women, we see that borne out in Yeah. But demonstrate that it's
04:29:02
Andrew Wilsonbecause of the jokes that's leading to that or that they actually mean that in this in a different way than women mean that. Demonstrate it. I'm not saying that most men who say that don't mean
04:29:14
Oliver N Housethat. It's the same thing. I think it's just [ __ ] Andrew thinks it's just [ __ ] [ __ ] Things can have connotations, right, Andrew? Would you say that someone if they flew the swastika and were like this is a sign of peace, would they be wrong in doing that? Uh, well, no. Actually, there was
04:29:28
Oliver N Housetwo campaigns which did do that called reclaim the swastika. I'm just saying. Fine. I'm And I'm not saying they like flew it over the beaches and were like this is actually a sign of peace. Okay. And do you do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Well, I would I
04:29:39
Andrew Wilsonwould definitely try. I I think it's a very good idea for people to take the actual swastika, which is not the Nazi swastika, in order to tell people there's a differentiation between the
04:29:49
Oliver N Housetwo. Okay. So, do you think that people should fly a flipped thing in order to express some message? The flipped What is that? Isn't that what this because the swast
04:30:00
Brian Atlasswas used? It's like Yeah. or well I mean you guys can discuss this but just before we do I did want to let Ogle's chat come through because we've been waiting on it for a while. Sure.
04:30:10
SPEAKER_00Clockavius just had one followup and then we'll let Ogles Octavius donated $69 being non-lethal makes it less of a concern. Then it logically follows that
04:30:22
Andrew Wilsonevery other kind of bigotry is also not a big deal as long as we ensure no one is killed. It's true. Or it's less impactful. But here you know here's the bigger issue that I have here is do you
04:30:34
Andrew Wilsonsee what Oliver did here this to the audience what Oliver did is he said because there's an impact from the thing and this thing is happening that means this thing is associated with the impact
04:30:44
Andrew WilsonOliver has not demonstrated that because uh there are some men who say kill all women and there's some women who say kill all men that the impact from both
04:30:55
Andrew Wilsoneven if the effect is uh out in the real world not because of these things, but there's just like an effect that happens based on whatever that more women are killed by men than than men by women. I
04:31:06
Andrew Wilsonwould like for Oliver to actually justify how it could be the case that these two things actually have anything to do with each other. Sure. Really quick before you do, you you'll have the
04:31:16
SPEAKER_00opportunity. Really quick, I do want to come in. Sorry for the delay overglue.net donated $1,000 pop champagne. Just celebrating
04:31:28
Brian Atlasbeing old enough to drink carbonation continue to grow. Cheers. God. Uh Ogle, appreciate it. I'm
04:31:37
Brian Atlastrying out an audience member sent me this new high tech. Okay, that's not working. Oh gosh. Well, I'm just going to have to do it the old school way. I'm going to run to the
04:31:49
Brian Atlasrestroom quick. All right. Okay. For sure. Um, Andrew, do you remember just for when uh Oliver gets back, you recalled what the uh Yeah, I recall
04:31:58
Andrew Wilsonexactly what we were talking about. I got this. And by the way, by the way, Jake Rattlesnake, for those of you who don't know, he's um he's in town here in California with me. And there's a
04:32:10
Andrew Wilsonthere's going to be in the next week a huge announcement. And you know how like some streamers will be like, "Oh, there's a big announcement." And then it's like a dud. You know what I mean? Holy [ __ ] It's like a dud. No, this is
04:32:22
SPEAKER_02an actual big announcement, so just saying. I'm leaking. What the [ __ ] Give it. Give it. Give it. What? Give me what? I'll take some off the top. No, it's good. It's good. I stopped it. Okay. Okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt
04:32:35
Andrew Wilsonyou there, Andrew. No problem. No problem. Big announcement. Big announcement coming. Can't say what it is. You'll probably hear about it in the next week or so, but you want champagne, right? again. Yeah, as many streamers will do the like, oh, big announcement,
04:32:48
Andrew Wilsonthen it's like not really a big announcement. This is actually one like I wouldn't do that to you, right? I wouldn't be like, oh, there's a I I don't think I've ever done that like huge announcement coming soon. But this
04:32:59
Brian Atlasone actually kind of big. Just saying. That makes sense. Yeah. Nice. Uh guys, W's in the chat for for Ogle for the big champagne pop. I
04:33:11
Brian Atlasapologize for the delay on getting it pulled up. You sent that in like 45 minutes ago. Apologies for the delay. There were just some chats I wanted to get through before and it was a good opportunity to uh allow Oliver to take a
04:33:22
Andrew Wilsonbrief break there while we did get that uh champagne pop. By the way, this is 5 hours of debate. We got to wrap this, bro. Got to wrap this one now. Yes. Excuse me. And I'm going to have a
04:33:34
Brian Atlassmoke. Oh, you can't just leave me alone. Here. Wait. Before you do, before you do, we got to do Cheers. Oh, yeah. We got to do Cheers. Cheers. Uh, cheers, Saloo. Thank you. It's always nice to be in the whatever studio with the whatever
04:33:47
Andrew Wilsonpodcast chat. You guys are fantastic. You've been huge supporters of The Crucible. Even those of you who hate me, just [ __ ] admit you missed me. Even those of you in the chat, you're like, "Fucking hate Andrew. He's just admit
04:33:59
Brian Atlasyou missed me. You [ __ ] missed me." Just saying. They did, right, Brian? They missed. Yeah, probably they did. Yeah. All right, we'll let some uh other chats come through while Andrew takes a little smoke break, then we'll shortly get this uh wrapped up. Biggie, thank
04:34:12
Brian Atlasfor the gifted five subs. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. All right, we have uh experience changes minds. Thank you, man. Experience changes minds donated
04:34:24
SPEAKER_00$69. I remember thinking similar thoughts as Oliver. Although I was not as insufferable, it took a number of toxic feminist girlfriends to wake me up. Take time to dive deeper, buddy. I'm
04:34:37
Oliver N Housevery satisfied in the relationships that I have with women and have had with women. Of course, I've made mistakes in the past and I've learned from them, but I think that, you know, I I value someone who shares similar values to me, and I genuinely do want someone who is
04:34:50
Oliver N Housemy equal and not someone who will be submissive to me or like bend to my authority. That strikes me as frankly utterly repulsive. I I don't know that I don't know. It's
04:35:00
Oliver N Housenot It feels weird to me when, you know, there's this large infantilization of women in which, you know, the you know, women are treated like children on the last debate. Um, Jim Bob like admitted this or nodded along to it. And yet
04:35:13
Oliver N Housethese are also the people who they want to sleep with. Seems a bit strange to me. So that's all I'm gonna say. Wait about are you talking about Jim Bob? He wants to sleep with Wait, what do you mean? No, I was saying I think it is a
04:35:25
Oliver N Housebit strange or a bit unnerving that a lot of these people are saying like they, you know, they they they fundamentally view women as children or something like that. that that that's what Jim Bob said in the in the debate in my closing statement that I had with
04:35:37
Oliver N Househim and I even pointed out and I said and he's nodding right now and he was nodding his head up and down and the fact that that his view infantilizes um women and like treats them like
04:35:47
Brian Atlaschildren. So that's what I was saying. Oh, and you're uh but and and they also want to sleep and they also want to sleep with women who I think they view as children. Wait, so is there an
04:35:59
Oliver N Houseimplication there that it's like PDF? It's it is I'm not I'm not I'm not calling them that. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying they're doing that. But I'm saying there is a there there there is a correlation there or there is
04:36:10
Oliver N Housesomething that it lead just you know if you if you only want to date people and you know have sex with people who you view as children or view like as infantilized.
04:36:21
Brian AtlasUm it strikes me as weird. That's all. I think Andrew might bite on that argument, but uh I don't No, we don't need to. Well, I think you should at least hear it, but um here I'll let I'll
04:36:33
Brian Atlasread the rest of the chats. Guys, we're going to have to get this wrapped up pretty soon. So, the roast session is going to be $69 TTS. If you want to get it in, we'll do the roast. If you want to get in a message, ask a question, make a statement. Uh we are probably
04:36:46
Brian Atlasgoing to get this wrapped up pretty soon. We have Josh Brooks, by the way. $69 TTS. That's on streamlabs.com whatever. Send it in through there. Oh, hold on. Josh Brooks, I'll wait until Andrew's back to play that one
04:36:59
Brian Atlasjust because it's directed at Andrew. Uh, we have we do have one for Oliver though, so I'll let that one come through. Member Birdman, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Streamlabs.com. Oh, really quick.
04:37:11
Brian AtlasVenmo Cash App. If you want to support the show, uh, you can do so. Uh, if you do whatever Pod Venmo Cash App, 100% of your contribution goes to Birdman
04:37:21
SPEAKER_00donated $69. Thank you. Appreciate it. Come on now. You sound deflated. Get pumped. Get hyped. You've been talking out of the wrong hole all night and the
04:37:32
SPEAKER_00odor is fogging up the studio, but I believe in you. Oliver smells like flowers and
04:37:43
Brian Atlasuh other pleasant sense. Okay, there's been no bad sense. You sniffing me, Brian. Sniffing me, Brian. What's going on here? When you did leave, I did sniff your chair. Yo, that that's crazy. Kind
04:37:54
Brian Atlasof crazy. Yeah, it's it's wild. Um, no. But there there's no bad sense emanating, no bad smells emanating from Oliver. I will confirm it myself. Okay, we have Jason Cassell.
04:38:07
SPEAKER_00[Music] Jason Castle donated $69. Oliver, I was a bouncer for many years at many bars. I can tell you women were overwhelmingly more likely to be
04:38:19
Brian Atlaskicked out for touching men sexually. The men didn't report. I observe firsthand. Jason, can you tell us like how long were Oh, well, he said it many years. Many years ago, Mr. Cassell,
04:38:30
SPEAKER_00appreciate it, Jason. By the way, something crazy just happened. Donated $69. Andrew, I've listened to your wife book on Audible 100 times, but I can't get
04:38:42
SPEAKER_00over the guy's voice who reads it. It's too nasely. When can we get a moist mafia crucible Don Wilson dub? Please soon. I look, I'm going to I'm just
04:38:52
Andrew Wilsongoing to go ahead and say it, okay? I my wife did recruit Spoons over well um for those of you who know Spoons, you know
04:39:02
Andrew WilsonSpoons. Um to do a cover of that audio book. I can't wait to hear it. Also, by Cole Feminism now. It's available on Kindle. Buy it. Hurry up. Also, the
04:39:13
Andrew WilsonBrian, you got to get control of this this woman over here who's been bringing me beers and doing this all night. So, she just asked me after all of the horrible things I've done to her all night if we could have a picture after
04:39:25
Andrew Wilsonthis was done. Oliver, why would she ask me for that after I dehumanized her like that? Oliver, why would she ask me for pictures after Is it maybe like for evidence for the police for all the dehumanization? I never claimed you
04:39:38
Andrew Wilsondirectly dehumanized her. I don't know. I feel like you need to go get your own water, bro. You know, I'm fine to do that. Oh, wait. Let me let this come through. Wizard, thank you.
04:39:49
SPEAKER_00Wizard donated $69. Hats off to you, Andrew and Brian. Always. Women outnumber men when it comes to child and elderly abuse and
04:40:00
SPEAKER_00each other when it comes to lesbians. Women do that to anyone they have physical power over. Also, for the champagne pop ogle, I
04:40:10
SPEAKER_00didn't feel like you got to do proper. Here you go. Oliver's vagina donated $16. Oh [ __ ] Hey big guy, the sun is getting real low. I need a good cleaning after this debate.
04:40:25
Brian AtlasIt's a little bit higher in alcohol content. That's Mary, can you pass him the champagne, though? It's It's over there in the corner. Oliver, wait, what? The sun's getting real. I need to go to clean up.
04:40:35
SPEAKER_00No more 40year-old men. Okay. All right. We have uh Thank you. Thank you. Zero donated 69. Dehumanize you later. Does Oliver even know that
04:40:46
SPEAKER_00Mexican policymakers who share his view are trying to pass Alena laws where women can unalive men if they feel intimidated regardless of proportionality or necessity? It's not at all what I'm advocating whatsoever at
04:40:59
Andrew Wilsonall that women should just be able to unilaterally use whatever force they want if they deem there to be a threat. Well, what well hang on though. What you are trying to do is you're trying to draw a parallel where the behavior of women who are doing the exact same thing
04:41:12
Oliver N Houseas men is dstigmatized because you feel like it doesn't have as much of an impact on I don't I don't think it should I I don't think it should be dig but I absolutely Women should not touch men's sex by limiting the impact of
04:41:24
Andrew Wilsonthis. You are assisting with feminists and dstigmatizing the rhetoric against men. I don't see how you get around that. No, I don't Andrew. I don't think it is bad for anyone I'm sorry. I don't
04:41:35
Andrew Wilsonthink it's good for anyone to be touched without their consent in a sexual or That's not my point. My point is is like if women put out a post that say kill all men and men put out the post saying kill all women or or a man or a woman.
04:41:47
Andrew WilsonUm if if that is the case and you say this one because it's from a man is more impactful than this one from a woman. You are pushing dstigmatization towards what the woman is saying. It's not from it's not was from it's the message. If a
04:41:58
Oliver N Housewoman were to say like kill all women that would still be a problem. No, but all of them are a problem, right Oliver? I don't think any of them are good. I agree. Again, so then so
04:42:09
Andrew Wilsonagreeing there's different levels of harm like we could I I actually don't I actually just I what I think is that you take the limited amount of the uh the unaliving, right, which is which is
04:42:22
Andrew Wilsonactually comparatively a fairly small amount when it comes to the amount of society that we actually have, right? And you say because this is the worst outcome, right? Therefore, uh this behavior is is more excusable than this
04:42:35
Andrew Wilsonone. Even though that doesn't mean that socially it couldn't have just as big of an impact even if people aren't being un alive by it. Sure. I understand that. I understand that. And that's why I've
04:42:47
Oliver N Housealways and I' I've been pretty consistent in saying that. No, you say it's less impactful and you only justify that by the unaliv. No, I think it I think it is less impactful. That doesn't mean necessarily that we should be doing
04:42:57
Oliver N Houseit. For example, if saying, you know, I hate men or hate all men or kill all men is alienating men, which largely I think probably it is, then it's probably not a prudent solution for the feminist cause
04:43:09
Andrew Wilsonto embrace rhetoric that is pushing people away. So I am I'm totally do you think that stigmatization operates based around the normaly or acceptance of the
04:43:21
Andrew Wilsonpopulation of the message? Like if I said uh gays are bad, right? That would be you would agree a form of stigmatization. Sure. And saying gays
04:43:31
Andrew Wilsonare good, it would be like a form of dstigmatizing that. Sure. Okay. So if that's the case, then you would want me to say gays are bad less. Sure. Okay. Because it leads to less
04:43:42
Andrew Wilsonstigma. Sure. Then how would it not logically follow that by you making the claim the impact, right, the impact in the message that you're not destigmatizing it? I I agree that I think largely women should be more precise with their language. I'm not
04:43:55
Andrew Wilsondenying that. They should they should instead say we don't like the way we are treated. So then why won't you present this as being just as bad even for the sake of stigmas for social stigma sake? I didn't say it was for fine for stigma. Yeah, sure. But I think stigmas can lead
04:44:07
Andrew Wilsonto different levels of harm and outcome, right? Just because two things. But the thing is is like I disagree first off with the framing that just because you say unaliving because univing happens with one of these cases more than with
04:44:19
Andrew Wilsonthe other that because Not good. I don't hear it that much. But no. Yeah. Yeah. But even if that's the case, that doesn't actually mean it has less of a social impact, right? Like that doesn't actually follow
04:44:31
Oliver N Houseby like social impact or like act like like what materially manifests in the world. You know what I mean? That would be social impact. Sure. Material manifest manifestation in the world would be social impact. Okay. Yeah. And if it and if it does have bad
04:44:43
Andrew Wilsonconsequences in that sense, that's why I've never been like that. That's the best way to express your frustration. Well then, bro, then then why make the equation like that? Oh, it's just less harmful when overall you haven't even
04:44:56
Andrew Wilsonactually made a case, by the way, how it's less harmful, except for the metric of because because you correlate it with the stat that men will unalive women
04:45:04
Andrew Wilsonmore than women will unalive men. I'll even correlate how it is that these two statements are not just as impactful or
04:45:14
Andrew Wilsonhow it is that when men say uh you know unal alive all women that somehow that actually is leading men to unalivving women. I mean I think largely because it contributes to a stigmatization where
04:45:27
Oliver N Housewomen are so how like if we talk about for example let's say like there's many cases of where the hatred of women like the hatred or like the disdain for women leads to women being killed on both
04:45:38
Oliver N Housesides I do you think it's as do you think it's as pre like I just don't let's think of the stalker case again you're back down to light fine because that's the case we're talking about if we're talking about if we're talking about let me finish this let me finish if we're talking about so
04:45:51
Oliver N HouseFor example, let's say that a a man and a woman are at a bar. A man is making advances towards the woman. The woman is declining the advances. She leaves and he follows her home and kills her because of that. Sure. Not good. That's
04:46:04
Andrew Wilsonbad. That is bad. And do you think that's happening at a comparable rate for women towards But how many times have I said I I would even concede that it's not comparable in the rate that
04:46:15
Andrew Wilsonthey unalive each other. But I need you to tie in how if a man says unlike all women that leads to more of that. What's our evidence for that contributing to
04:46:26
Oliver N Housethe hatred of women and the hatred of women gets women killed? Prove it. Prove that that's contributing to the unalivement of these women. Prove it. You want me to prove that when people
04:46:38
Oliver N Househate a certain group that hatred can manifest in them killing people? No, that's not what am I asking you to prove? You're asking me to prove that there is a connection between people saying I I hate women or something like
04:46:48
Andrew Wilsonthat and women actually dying right that that has that those statements have more of a social impact and are leading to these unalignments more than the social impact of the alternative statement from
04:46:59
Andrew Wilsonwomen of hate all men when it comes to materialistic impacts. I do not I am not sure that the husband because you you have to admit this stranger death from
04:47:10
Andrew Wilsonwomen men to women is far less likely than when it comes to the dynamic of somebody who's familial that's happens in general. Yeah. Yeah. This is just the
04:47:19
Andrew Wilsoncase actually, right? Do you think that it's like the message of I hate women or you know like I I put out a tweet recently that said launch all women into the sun which was [ __ ] hilarious. Do
04:47:31
Andrew Wilsonyou think that the type of man who was going to unal alive in a domestic situation, his wife, that that was the thing that was going to send them over? I'm not. It doesn't have to be the exact thing that sends them over. Do you even think it really contributes to that? It
04:47:44
Andrew Wilsoncould contribute. Absolutely. It contributes to a culture where they don't view women as full human beings. Then the same case would be made for the opposition statement from women when it comes to the social stigma that men are
04:47:56
Andrew Wilsonmonsters. They're awful. They're horrible. They want to do bad things to you. They [ __ ] they want to do all and that adds to the stigma from men, right? Or for men. Okay. Correct. Sure.
04:48:08
Andrew WilsonIsn't that factually correct? It it can contribute to stigma. I don't But how can you make the comparison and say that one is more impactful than the other? Even if like we were to say, okay, there's like leads to people violence.
04:48:20
Andrew WilsonLet's just say there's like 2,000 more deaths due to this, but there's like But hang on. But there's 80,000. But there's like 80,000 more men who enter into depression and this and that because me
04:48:32
Andrew Wilsonwomen are distancing themselves from them based on these types of tweets. Would that hang on? Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. So let's say for a second there's like 2,000 let's
04:48:43
Andrew Wilsonjust say hypothetically 2,000 more deaths which occur due to the men who put out like uh the this type of like hateful what you would consider hateful rhetoric. Right. Sure. And then on the
04:48:54
Andrew Wilsonwoman's side, there's like 80,000 more men who enter into a state of depression because of these tweets. Which one would you select for in your society? Neither. No. But if you had to choose one, I I would reject the hypothetical. Yeah. But
04:49:07
Andrew Wilsonif you had to choose one though, but I can reject the hypothetical. Based on what grounds? I just did. What what grounds though? That I think it is. What's invalid about the hypothetical? Why can't we do both? Because it's not within the confines of the hypothetical. Well, then I think the What's a
04:49:20
Oliver N Househypothetical? I agree. But the hypothetical actually has to track. It tracks things. What What doesn't track? I think we should do neither of them. Yeah, I understand. A certain number of men women who were killed, 2,000 women who were killed and 80,000 men who go
04:49:33
Andrew Wilsoninto depression state. Is that was that it? Yeah. If it was the other side, I don't I think that it's like if you had a society, there's nothing illogical about this hypothetical. You have no grounds
04:49:46
Andrew Wilsonto dismiss it whatsoever on a logical basis. It completely tracks. If you had to choose between two different societies, the one society there was 2,000 additional deaths of women based on misogynistic rhetoric. But based on
04:49:59
Andrew Wilsonmisandress rhetoric, there was 80,000 more depressed men. Which society would you select for? I don't. All else equal. Which society? I don't I think both. You don't [ __ ] know. No, I think both are bad. And I'm not going to weigh the lives of women.
04:50:12
Oliver N HouseCan you tell me why you rejected a hypothetical when there's nothing wrong with a hypothetical? I because I do think it's it's it's not even it's a weird point you're trying to get at which is that somehow we should weigh the way that like there's a certain
04:50:23
Oliver N Houseamount of male depression that outweighs women who are being killed. You're a utilitarian. Of course you weigh everything that way. I'm not claiming utilitarian. Even if it is the case you're a harm reductionist, you would have to weigh it that way. Fine. Then we
04:50:35
Andrew Wilsonshould do neither. That's actually the utilitarian view. Great. Great. I agree. We should do neither. But if we had to choose between these two societies, Mr.
04:50:46
Oliver N HouseHarm reductionist, which one would you [ __ ] choose? I don't know, dude. You don't know. Okay. No, I haven't. You're just not going to answer the question. I just haven't given thought as to whether or not I want 80,000 the question. Yes,
04:50:59
Oliver N HouseI'm I'm rejecting the hypothetical. Tell me what's wrong with the hypothetical. Wrong with the hypothetical is I don't think it's a legitimate choice to choose between. This is the whole thing when like they're pulled on. You can't say the choice isn't legitimate in a
04:51:10
Oliver N Househypothetical. Hold on. But these are the same as the street debates I see all the time where people are like, "Would you rather have gay rights or the economy?" Yeah. And it's like that's a stupid hypothetical cuz you can have both. You don't need to choose between one or the
04:51:23
Oliver N Houseother. What it's trying to do, it's supposed to dichomize them. It's gay rights come at the expense or the economy comes at the expense of gay rights. They have to be the other It's designed to test logic because it could be possible that if you were to answer
04:51:36
Andrew Wilsonthis way on this particular question that if you were to have logical consistency on a different set of questions, they could run in parallel with how you answered this one. That makes sense, right? Sure. Yeah. So, like
04:51:48
Andrew Wilsonif I were to ask you a hypothetical like I don't know, dude. I if you had to push the button between all men dying or all women dying, let's just say, right? Like that this is the hypothetical. Now, you could say, well, that's extreme. it
04:52:01
Andrew Wilsonwould never happen this and that, right? It's logically possible. You can't reject it. There's no contradiction. You can't reject it as being logically possible. Therefore, it's a possible. Even if we just looked at like a multi-orld theory, you could say it's still logically possible. You could push
04:52:14
Andrew Wilsonone button or the other. You can't reject it under any grounds. Which one would you pick? I'm not picking a button. Which one would you pick? No. But what if it's the case that based on that answer, I have a follow-up to test
04:52:26
Andrew Wilsonthat logic where it would be inconsistent based on how you answer that hypothetical. Wouldn't that then the hypothetical be legitimate? I have no basis for preferring whether all men die or all women die. That's like that's
04:52:37
Oliver N Houseokay. But you had to choose. I wouldn't. What's a hypothetical? I don't I would You don't know what a hypothetical is. I don't know what a hypothetical, Andrew. It is is talking about a situation. I agree. To test some
04:52:49
Oliver N Housesort of consistency. No, that's not all it is. What else is it? And it's supposed to It's supposed to test intuition. supposed to test like your reasoning about something in a case and then apply that reasoning to another case. And if it's logically possible,
04:53:02
Andrew Wilsondoes it help us with our logic to engage in these hypotheticals so that we can test our worldview against things which seemingly are absurd but can often be applied in actuality to our worldview? It can be, but I don't even know how to answer that question because I don't You
04:53:15
Oliver N Houseknow how you answer it? Which one you would push? You want me to flip a coin? I just want to know which one you would push. Okay. Heads are heads are um heads are men, tails are women. That's fair. Okay. So, if you flip a coin, you want me to flip it. Flip it. Flip it. Okay.
04:53:28
Andrew WilsonDo you want me to? Yeah. Actually, flip it. Flip a coin. Flip a coin. And hang on. Heads is men. Tails. Was that women or men? Women. Women. So, women are going in your hypothetical. Sure. Why not? Okay. So, you would flip a coin and
04:53:40
Andrew Wilsonthen you would dust all the women cuz they're both of equal cuz they're both equal value, right? Okay. Yep. Go. Okay. And that's fair, right? The my whole point of demonstrating that was like if there was something which was logically
04:53:51
Andrew Wilsonconsistent past that that would equate to well wait a second um you know you would you would generally make this choice even if it was the coin flip choice that still seems like the hypothetical would be valid in this
04:54:04
Andrew Wilsonparticular case I asked you a valid hypothetical you have no grounds to reject it can answer the hypothetical I asked you would you rather have 2,000 men women die because of mis yeah 80,000
04:54:15
Andrew Wilsonmen who are in depression or 2,000 men who die, which I'll flip a coin again. So, you think they have equal societal impact? So, then why do you keep bringing up death? Why do you keep
04:54:26
Oliver N Housebringing up death as the threshold breaker? Then, Andrew, because I That was easy, by the way. I love doing that to you. Hold on. No, let I have I have a response. Because the type of rhetoric
04:54:37
Oliver N Housethat women are expressing, I do not think is the major or even a large cause as to why men become so depressed. So it it doesn't so what because so what
04:54:50
Andrew Wilsonbecause you're saying that we have to choose that because if women express this it's going to lead to men being the hypothetical shows is just this that your version or view that if even if it is the case that all that counter
04:55:02
Andrew Wilsonrhetoric does is cause additional uh like mental distress for the men. just causes like additional mental distress for men but not the unalignment of them but for women it does cause additional unment then therefore I would choose the
04:55:15
Andrew Wilsonmen then you would choose the men men going into depression over women being killed okay so now you're going to change your answer now because because the hypothetical was valid hold on no if we're talking about specific because it's a hypothetical is valid that's why
04:55:28
Andrew Wilsonhe had he had to change it to be consistent now you see why it was so valuable no it wasn't what what have you gained what you did what you gave that your threshold breaker which is for the unalivement. It's unalivement. That's why there's a
04:55:41
Andrew Wilsonthreshold. That's why it's actually worse on this end. And yet your answer did not match up with that in the hypothetical. The second we were able to equalize death and just show that there was less death and more depression,
04:55:52
Andrew Wilsonright? You equalized towards what? Flip a coin. They're both equal to you. So you can't say one is worse than the other when they're equalized to you inside of this hypothetical. It makes no sense, dude. Okay. How how does that
04:56:04
Oliver N Housemake sense? I don't know. I yeah I I guess my h my answer to a hypothetical question is to whether or not we want 80,000 men being depressed or 2,000 women dying. Yeah. Well, it can't be. In
04:56:15
Oliver N Houseother words, the death itself is not really the threshold breaker. So why do you keep bringing up the death as though it is? Hold on. But then here's the thing then. When I was thinking of depression, are we thinking like these