Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Oliver | Whatever Debates #18
Date: 2025-05-17
Duration: 5h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_04Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:10
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Oliver N House (Oberlin triple-major)
00:45:55
Key MomentOliver admits prefers experienced women; Andrew labels it 'certified pre-f***ed woman worship'
02:17:48
Key MomentAndrew says 'woman, get me a beer' to production staff; Oliver stands up in protest
02:39:48
ControversyAge gap debate: Oliver calls 41yo dating 18yo predatory but cannot give precise cut-off. 40+ min argument.
05:16:00
Key MomentOliver apologizes for reckless language implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies
05:32:42
AgreementOliver concedes Andrew won on rhetoric but reaffirms feminist vision
Topics Discussed
00:00:10
Opening Statements
Andrew lists feminist-caused male burdens. Oliver defines feminism as equal rights, cites dual-income poverty protection.
00:33:36
Promiscuity and Virginity Debate
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Oliver: prefers experienced women. 'Certified pre-f***ed' exchange.
02:39:48
Age Gap Relationships
Oliver: 41-year-olds dating 18-year-olds is predatory but can't specify age cut-off. Andrew refuses to move on for ~40 min.
04:25:54
Misandry and Kill All Men
Oliver: 'kill all men' is imprecise frustration, less harmful than misogyny. Andrew challenges the differential impact claim.
05:16:00
Jim Bob PDF Implication
Andrew confronts Oliver about implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies. Oliver apologizes.
05:26:54
Closing Statements
Andrew claims total victory. Oliver concedes rhetoric loss but reaffirms feminist vision.
Transcript
Page 2 of 7
00:59:46
Oliver N Housethat women who blindside someone with a divorce and it's not a conversation of I'm not happy with this. I'm not happy. You're not, you know, meeting X, Y, or Z needs. I feel like you're not communicating with me. I maybe there's
00:59:57
Oliver N Houseinfidelity involved. Then I think that if if she doesn't talk about any of that and then just suddenly No, she can talk about all of that, but it's still blind. Here's the thing. Here's here's the problem with this, right? is like you
01:00:08
Andrew Wilsonseem to want to take human nature out of the human aspect here. If you know that you're going to leave your significant other, right? Are you going to like try to leverage it so that they have the best chance for custody and they have
01:00:20
Oliver N Housethe best chance for financial security or are you going to leverage things the best possible way for yourself? No, actually the first one and that's what my dad did in the divorce from my stepmom. Your dad? Yes. I think it was a really rational reasonable man. Yes.
01:00:33
Andrew WilsonWait, I think I think it was I think it was a very good thing of him to do. He didn't leave my stepmom completely. Like that was awful good of him. But do you agree with me that in within human nature, if you know that you're going to exit, you know that you're leaving,
01:00:46
Andrew Wilsonright? Just like with a job, aren't you going to try to make No, no, wait. Jo is different. Aren't you going to try to make the best conditionals possible for the exit so that you're as financially set as possible? Putting in your two weeks is not the same thing as signing. No, it's not putting in two weeks.
01:00:59
Oliver N HouseHere's what you do when you change a job. You don't put in your two weeks. You quit. You've already arranged a job for six [ __ ] months before you ever put in your 2 weeks. It's still not the same because you don't have you don't
01:01:11
Oliver N Househave obligations to that individual who you're working for in terms of emotional security. Of course, you have you have obligations to them. You can quit a job. Yeah, I know. But you still made an you can quit a marriage, but you still made a [ __ ] agreement like you did with
01:01:22
Oliver N Houseyour job. Sure. And I think people in marriages have a responsibility to care for the other person. They have a duty. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I think that I think everyone has a duty. I just don't
01:01:34
Andrew Wilsonthink the duties are gender specific. Oh, they're not. No, I don't think they are. They're not. Okay. So, let's I guess we can dive into that next. This is [ __ ] hilarious. So, let's dive
01:01:45
Andrew Wilsoninto the idea of uh of gender itself. Okay. Okay. How many would you say there are an infinite number? I don't know, man. I I don't I have no clue. You have You have no clue how many there are? No.
01:01:57
Andrew WilsonHow many names are there in the world, Andrew? Do you consider every name and gender? No, but I think there were relevant category of identification. So, yeah. Well, okay.
01:02:09
Andrew WilsonDo you Do you understand like a label a a label versus a descriptor? Sure. But I think I think there's a lot of overlap between the two. No, there's
01:02:20
Andrew Wilsonnot really a lot of overlap between the two. One, an empty label is my name is Andrew. Do you agree with me? My name is Andrew. Sure. Okay. Do you agree with me that there could be many Andrews sitting at the table with me right now? Sure. So
01:02:32
Oliver N HouseAndrew doesn't describe anything about me. It's a label, right? There are certain connotations with it. For example, for example, I I would assume that you're a man. I would assume that that's largely an American. Andrew doesn't determine that, but it's associated with it. No, it's not even
01:02:44
Andrew Wilsonassociated with it. So let's take Andy. Take something like Andy, then. Yeah. Then we wouldn't know. Okay. So it's just an empty label, right? Empty is weird. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's
01:02:54
Andrew Wilsonjust an empty label. So, but if I were to say man or male, that is a descriptor which is trying to point at something specific. It's not an empty label. Yeah.
01:03:06
Oliver N HouseYeah. So, what is a man and what is a woman? Start with what a woman is. Sure. So, I think largely and I'm I claim this with my debate with Jim Bob and I'll claim it with you. I'm not super well-versed in like gender ideology or
01:03:19
Oliver N Housethings of that nature. So I don't have comprehensive definitions or sets of necessary and sufficient conditions that must be met in order for someone to be in one category. So if we're talking about for example woman and man, there are biological definitions of this
01:03:32
Oliver N Housething. If you look in the dictionary, this the reason why there's multiple definitions, dude. Okay. So I think a biological definition could be something like an adult human female. But I do think there are can be social definitions of woman of someone who has
01:03:44
Oliver N Housea desire to be in accordance with a particular set of social and cultural norms that are typically associated with the female sex. Okay. So if a person did not have those norms but identified themselves as a woman, would you call them that? So what did I just say? No.
01:03:57
Andrew WilsonBut what did I say before? You're asking a question that shows that you didn't listen to what I said. Okay. In fact, I'll steal man it just to make sure that I got it correct. You think that there are scientific definitions which we can associate to male and female. You gave
01:04:08
Andrew Wilsonan example. The example for female was adult human or I'm sorry the for woman adult human female from the scientific end. You agree with that portion so far? Yeah. But that's you did miss something at the beginning. Then when we go then
01:04:19
Andrew Wilsonwe go into gender. You say what gender is is it's a series of traits and cultural and social like social norms in which we would attribute to somebody which would then make them either woman
01:04:30
Oliver N Houseor man. So first you missed the first part that I said which I said that I don't think there is a comprehensive set of necessary and sufficient conditions that can be given for man or woman
01:04:41
Andrew Wilsonthere's going to be things that lie outside of there and it's really can we stop that can we stop right there okay since there since you're confused as to how many necessary conditions there would be then it would be just a
01:04:53
Andrew Wilsondescript or a self ID right no not necessarily then what else would it be I think I'm I'm not sure. I I think you're not sure. You're not sure, bro. What else would it
01:05:04
Andrew Wilsonbe besides a self ID? Self ID. Other people recognizing it. If people don't other people are recognizing it based on the scientific definition, some people aren't they conflate it with the scientific definition. Some people are also with social though. Do you know
01:05:18
Andrew Wilsonsomeone's chromosomes when they walk down the street called Brian? If Brian looked exactly like he looks right this second, but said that he's a woman, right? And you want to use she her pronouns? I don't give a [ __ ] Yeah, you
01:05:29
Andrew Wilsonwould agree that he is then. Yeah, right. Sure. Okay. So then a woman would have to be anybody who identifies as a woman. Well, no, cuz that would be a circular definition. So then tell me
01:05:41
Oliver N Housewhat it is then. If you agree that Brian can be a woman right now by saying he is I I think he can be a woman in the social sense of it, but I don't think he can be a woman. How can he be a woman in the social sense of it? Because there's not a set of necessary and sufficient
01:05:53
Oliver N Houseconditions, then it would just be self. Just because there is ambiguity around boundaries doesn't mean the categories don't exist. Oh no, hang on. Hang on. I agree. Unless we have a category to point to, which we do. So we have a
01:06:05
Andrew Wilsoncategory, man, woman, which points to male, female, right? So if those categories do exist when we're talking about ambiguity here, you're creating the ambiguity by just failing to admit that you just believe it's a self ID. I don't necessarily think it is a self,
01:06:18
Oliver N Housethen tell me what it is. I think it's a combination of someone identifying as and them being recognized by other people in the society. So if Brian said he was a woman right now, full honesty right now, I don't really think I would think he was a woman. You would think he
01:06:31
Oliver N Housewas? No, I wouldn't think he was a woman. You wouldn't think he was because I think most people wouldn't recognize him as such. And I do think that if most people in society don't recognize someone as a woman, even if they identify as a woman, then for a lot of functional purposes, they aren't treated
01:06:43
Oliver N Houseas a woman and they aren't so even if their self is that way, it's not going to match up to the treatment that they're going to have. See, so you wouldn't believe Brian if he said he was a woman right now. No, probably not. Not probably not. I might use I might use she her pronouns if Brian wanted to use
01:06:56
Oliver N Housethat information. Would you treat Brian like a woman? I don't think there is a proper way to treat a man or treat a woman. So, I would treat Brian like a human being the same way I would treat men and treat women. Okay. So, but you would use his his pronouns. Sure. Okay.
01:07:09
Oliver N HouseAnd you would use those pronouns as a matter of respect that Yeah. He said he's a woman. Well, yeah. I just don't want to be an [ __ ] Like I don't Okay. That's just being a jerk. I I think intentionally misgendering someone
01:07:20
Andrew Wilsonlike I don't I Yeah, it's kind of I'm really just not really kind of satisfied here. I'm sorry. I want to be so that we can move into the proper gender roles for society, but if we can't really nail down what a woman is, I'm not sure how
01:07:33
Andrew Wilsonwe're supposed to nail down how men and women are supposed to function with each other in interexual dynamics or how they're supposed to uh interact with each other in social dynamics. I'm not really sure that we can even get to that
01:07:45
Andrew Wilsonpart. And unless we nail nailed down what even a man and a woman is. So I mean we've nailed it down largely biologically. But I think No, we haven't. Well, but we haven't nailed down what your definition of these things are. I don't So here's the thing
01:07:58
Oliver N Houseis you're going you you're going to rigidly categorize men and women into male and female and then say that certain gender roles follow from that. I'm basically saying that I don't think those gender roles. That's great. But you won't nail down what a man and a
01:08:10
Andrew Wilsonwoman even is. because I don't think you can give a comprehensive. Well, then how can you make social prescriptions for what they ought to ought not do? What's a chair? So, this is this is interesting, right? What is a chair? A chair, just like sports team, you could
01:08:23
Andrew Wilsonuse that same analogy. This is one of Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. I'm explaining it, right? And I'll answer the question. I'll give you the descriptor of what a chair is, right? My proprietary definition of a chair is um that it has
01:08:35
Andrew Wilsonit's a thing you sit on that has like four standing legs and a cushion and and things like this, right? They have a bean bag joke. But yeah. Yeah. But here's what's interesting, right, about this. We're I'm trying to point to
01:08:47
Andrew Wilsonsomething. Just like with sports teams, if I say there's a sports team, right, or a sports fan, sorry, sports fan. Um, you could say, "What is a sports fan?" Right? Is it just an empty label? Nah,
01:08:59
Andrew Wilsonit's really not. You would assume that there's things that come with it like empty labels. Hang on. Like you would assume for a second that they support the team, they support this, they support that, right? When I give a
01:09:11
Andrew Wilsondefinition of a chair, while it is true that there can be a very comprehensive descriptive definition of a chair, I'm actually not wrong about my definition of chair. And you're not wrong about
01:09:22
Andrew Wilsonyour definition of chair either when you say bean bag chair, right? Because you're still we're still trying to point to the same idea of what a chair is. In this case, we're not pointing to the same idea of what a woman or a man is.
01:09:35
Oliver N HouseSure. I don't necessarily think so. And I think that the social definition, there are a lot of people who ascribe to that. And when people think of woman and think of man, they do think of traditional woman and traditional man. They think of [ __ ] and dicks, dude. I don't necessarily think so, dude. Yeah.
01:09:48
Andrew WilsonI think when they when you make an association of man versus woman, right? If somebody's told asked a person, what is the thing that you would think of if a person was naked that would identify
01:10:00
Oliver N Housethem immediately as a man or a woman? What do you think they would say? Naked is different because what do you think they would say? Sure, Andrew. What would they say? If their genitals are out, they're going to point out their genitals. Yeah, because
01:10:12
Oliver N Housemost points are most people's genitals out a long time, bro. What does that have to do with anything? Because if someone were to ask me, what do I associate with womanhood? I would say a lot of things that are associated with
01:10:23
Oliver N Housefemininity, longer hair, wearing certain type of clothing, things of that nature. Fashion to me that fashion. Wait, hold on. In a sense, I'm not saying that that's a comprehensive definition of a
01:10:34
Oliver N Housewoman. Well, it doesn't even point to I'm saying for me those are things that I value and find attractive in women. Okay. When I'm saying woman or man, I'm
01:10:45
Andrew Wilsongiving a descriptor which is trying to point to something. Yes. Right. Point to it. You're trying to say that there's two categories. That man and woman is not just a biological categorization,
01:10:59
Andrew Wilsonbut there's a social categorization. And they do it here. They say that it's not a comprehensive social categorization, right? I can What else could it be besides self ID? What else could it be? I don't think it has to be one or the other, Andrew. There is ambiguity and
01:11:12
Andrew Wilsondefinitions. Like I don't if someone says I'm a woman and like if people say they're not like what? Well, first of all, there's not ambiguity in all definitions, but we're heads. But second, but secondly, definitions also operate. They have
01:11:24
Andrew Wilsondefin What is the defin? What are the things which are the undercurrent of the definition that they're pointing to? They're saying like a chair, right? You might have like little things under the
01:11:36
Andrew Wilsondefinition of a chair that point to things you sit on, right? Things that you relax on, things like this. That's what's doing all the heavy lifting for the word. Yes. What's doing all the heavy lifting for the word man and
01:11:47
Andrew Wilsonwoman? What is it? I think it can be and is social roles. No, it's sex. It's 100% sex doing the heavy lifting for man and woman. Dude, give me a break. I don't necessarily. Okay. Demonstrated all of the definitions, all of the things which
01:12:00
Andrew Wilsonsupport the definitions of man and woman, all of them are pointing to sex, literally all of them. Okay. Like basically every one of them. If you think reproduction, right? If you even woman, even with when it comes to woman,
01:12:13
Andrew Wilsonright? uh adult human female. If you look up the definition of female uh especially human female, it says like one a member of the like the human race that which is
01:12:25
Andrew Wilsonassociated with reproduction, right? Okay. It's literally utilizing the reproductive categorization of genitalia, right? Well, just genitalia. I mean, there's difference between reproductive system. How do they get how
01:12:38
Andrew Wilsondo they get pregnant? I'm not saying it doesn't involve genitalia. Of course it does. All of it is all of it is being held up by sex. All of it, dude. Okay. If someone doesn't have the internal reproductive organs but has a vagina, do
01:12:52
Andrew Wilsonyou think they're a woman? Of course. And I can even dive into that, too. So, the monolithic argument for gender is my favorite one. Um, I wouldn't say that a man who was castrated, right, through no fault of his own, he was in a terrific
01:13:03
Andrew Wilsonaccident. His the genitals were ripped off. Of course, he's still a man, but here's why. Because people only develop around two pathways. That's it. There's no third sex. There's never going to be
01:13:14
Andrew Wilsona third sex. Nobody alive has ever been able to impregnate themselves. Not even chimeas. And because of that, there's only two reproductive pathways available. Period. You're still a woman. Even if you don't have a uterus, your
01:13:27
Oliver N Housereproductive pathway was still developed to that of a woman, to that of a female. But it didn't develop. It did develop. Well, a lot of these people who have this condition complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are those who
01:13:37
Andrew Wilsonhave XY chromosomes and develop along a male pathway. No, they even if you have XXY, right? Or you have there are actually men who just have XX, but their
01:13:49
Andrew Wilsonreproductive pathway can only be one of two. They can only develop along two reproductive pathways period regardless of chromosomes. And that's every human being who exists. Even ones who have the
01:14:01
Andrew Wilsonnature of their like um the nature of them is ambiguous, right? The ambiguity around genitalia and things like this are ambiguous. They still can only go down one one phenotypical pathway
01:14:13
Andrew Wilsonperiod. Okay? And genotypical. So if sex is doing all of the heavy lifting, I think that it is fine for us to point at man and woman and say a man, right, is
01:14:24
Andrew Wilsonsomeone who developed along the reproductive pathway for the production of small gamtes and woman for ova. Sure. Require they have a uterus. They still develop down that pathway. Right. Sure. And yeah, that that absolutely is a
01:14:36
Oliver N Housebiological definition. But we use we use those words in other ways, right? No, we don't. We don't when we say when we say well then how come we can say a woman is manly and the sentence makes sense because we're not we're pointing to
01:14:46
Andrew Wilsonmasculine or feminine virtues agreed virtues wait but we use those terms to refer to social phenomena right uh well no not always actually the most most of
01:14:58
Andrew Wilsonthe time right when you're doing that uh there is times when this is done I agree with you where you're like oh that that chick is or you're nagging me like a woman yeah right how many people in the comments right now do you think call me
01:15:09
Andrew Wilsona But yeah, but the whole point of that, right, is to say that like you're weaker than me or this or that. You're still actually associating this with the sex. You're still associating it with the fact that that that's the weaker sex or
01:15:21
Andrew Wilsonthat's the more dominant sex. Basically, all of those social interactions still revolve around the that same idea. Sure. I haven't denied that. Yeah. I mean, so they're always pointing, in other words, all extremes for gender are always
01:15:34
Andrew Wilsonactually only pointing to two things. Male, female, that's it. So if that's the case, when we're talking about social roles in society, m men and women, male, female are completely
01:15:46
Andrew Wilsondifferent. I mean, totally different across the board. We're humans. True, right? But everything from our development developmental pathway for reproduction, right, to our physical characteristics are completely
01:15:59
Andrew Wilsondifferent. Why in the world would you prescribe a society which didn't bank on the ideas of that and understand that if we are to push the very things which combine our physiology with the social
01:16:11
Andrew Wilsonstatus of people creates a better society. For instance, would you prescribe like if if we're talking about the military, would you prescribe that uh that we had more women in the military than men? More women than men
01:16:23
Andrew Wilsonin the military largely probably not because they don't meet the same standards and I'm not denying that. Yeah, of course. So then a failing of courage of men considering that they have to take on that role that dominant
01:16:34
Oliver N Househang on that dominant but they have to right notm no no no they always have to not but not no man is obligated to join the military therefore it's not they are they can be drafted okay I think I don't agree with the draft it doesn't matter if you agree with that or not they can
01:16:47
Andrew Wilsondescriptively be drafted and women can't and that's and that's unjust that's unjust yes okay so there shouldn't be a draft so what about police police officers police force you could be deputized yeah I That's no, you should.
01:16:59
Andrew WilsonThat's unjust, too. Uh, you can be compelled into a posi. That's unjust. Define. Sorry. Compelled into a posi just like uh just like you can be compelled into jury duty, right? Sure. Jury duty. I think it's a little bit
01:17:13
Oliver N Housedifferent because you're not putting yourself in as much harm's way. I don't think that anyone should be conscripted into into being a police officer or being a or being that. Of course, there are Okay. There's always dangers. There's always dangers associated with
01:17:26
Oliver N Houseall of this, including jury duty, right? And there's going to be a threshold, right? Okay. Which is what? We don't know exact of I don't have to point Wait, I don't have to point to an exact point to say that there is a difference
01:17:36
Andrew Wilsonbetween sitting on a jury duty and having a gun on you. If you say you do, if you say that the consistency of the ideology is that you don't believe in this thing because it can put you in harm's way, but you but this thing also
01:17:48
Andrew Wilsonputs you in harm's way. Significant harm. What What Okay, so fine. Okay. Yeah, of course. I'm not arguing there's not a threshold answer, but not just that. I'm not arguing it's not a threshold. Let's start with the Titanic.
01:17:59
Oliver N HouseSo, should the men have given up the lifeboats to the women? Men given up the lifeboats to the women and the children. Um, if they were largely stronger, then yes. However, if there if Wait a second. If there was a disabled man, if there
01:18:11
Oliver N Housewas a man who for some reason was weaker, then I think then yeah, then he should have gone with those people. So, it's a strong verse weak, not necessarily along sexed lines. There is
01:18:22
Andrew Wilsona lot of overlap there, but it's not necessary. Whoa. Okay. So, so I need to make sure I got this right though. You agree with me that the average man is many times stronger than the average woman. Well, largely in terms of like
01:18:35
Oliver N Houseupper body strength or something like that. Yes. No, just Well, no. Lower body too. Lower body. Yes. Because it would depend what you mean by strength because for example like endurance and things of that nature. Women in certain cases are stronger. What did I say? Average is
01:18:48
Oliver N Housecertain cases now. Well, I think that women in general are better at endurance running. I would have to look more into it. I think in certain okay on average they're not they're not better at anything physical than men nothing
01:19:00
Andrew Wilsonliterally nothing when you say what's really funny about this too is like when you say well what about lower body it is true that proportionally women have
01:19:08
Andrew Wilsonstronger lower bodies than men right for women proportionally that's true men still have much stronger lower bodies than women it's just that proportional to the size of men arguing that women
01:19:21
Andrew Wilsonare physically strong yeah so then if that's the case You are aren't you creating a bias in society by saying that the strong right should be uh necessarily like giving up their spots
01:19:32
Oliver N Housefor the weak when you agree with me that on average men are going to be much stronger than on average women. I don't think it's a bias. I think it's people who have certain advantages should use those advantages to help those who are
01:19:45
Andrew Wilsonless well off. That would be an example. So that how would that not disproportionately affect men? It would disproportionately affect men. I'm not saying it. So, you're a m Well, okay. So, that's not that's not broke. Come on. How the [ __ ] is that? Missing. Okay.
01:19:56
Oliver N HouseSo, why should they do that? Why should they do that? I already said because people should protect those who are weaker than them. Once again, claim that I'm stipulating. If you disagree and
01:20:08
Oliver N Housedon't think those who are stronger should use that to protect those who are less strong, then I guess this doesn't follow. But I think that's a pretty strong intuition that most people hold. Let's make sure that we that you hold
01:20:19
Andrew Wilsonthis intuition then. Okay. Yeah. So, would you consider like a 13-year-old boy to be a child? Yes. Okay. Do you agree with me that 13-year-old boys can be about as strong as the average woman?
01:20:31
Oliver N HouseSure. I I depend. I'm not sure. So, should 13-year-old boys give up their seats on the lifeboat for women? Maybe. It's a case case by case dependent basis. I think you should try to save women and children because Did
01:20:43
Oliver N Housethe 13-year-old give up their spot in the lifeboat for a 70-year-old woman? Um, no. Because I think there's a long Well, I think there's a longer lifespan. Wait, Andrew. This is what you did. No, this is what you I'm going to explain
01:20:54
Oliver N Housewhat you did. You took one categorization that I made and general prescriptionist that those who are stronger should generally protect those who are weaker. That's what I said. And you were saying so in every single case
01:21:06
Oliver N Housewhere there's someone who's stronger, they should protect someone who's weaker overriding consideration. I did I not say generally? You know, no, you actually just said that stronger people should protect weaker people. Okay, then I meant that in the general sense. I'm
01:21:19
Oliver N Housesorry for not specing. So gen So generally speaking then men are going to be disadvantaged in society under your view. I don't think they're going to be disadvantaged because they have the advantage of more strength. So them using that strength to protect but
01:21:32
Andrew Wilsonyou're prescribing a duty. You haven't actually told me why it is. So for instance, do you agree that men and women's lives are are equally valuable? Equally valuable. Yeah. Okay. Then why the [ __ ] would you say that they should give up their spots on the lifeboat because they're stronger? equally
01:21:45
Oliver N Housevaluable because I think if you were talking about a a boat sinking, I think most men would probably be better able to swim longer, be able to in the icy [ __ ] waters of the [ __ ] Are you serious? In the icy waters of the
01:21:58
Andrew WilsonAtlantic Ocean, they're going to have a better fighting chance against the sharks. Like, what are you what? Wait, hold on, Andrew. Come on, bro. Dude, this is [ __ ] crazy. No, there were Andrew. Are are you not Are you not
01:22:11
Andrew Wilsonagreeing with me? Uh-huh. Who do you think would survive longer in the icy water? I don't I think you're talking about seconds or minutes perhaps. Okay. And if there were rescue boats going by? Uh-huh. There's not rescue boats. There
01:22:24
Andrew Wilsonwasn't rescue boats going by. I'm glad we're not in that situation anymore. Yeah. But I am asking about that situation. You said they should give up their spots on the Titanic. That women get the lifeboats because the men are
01:22:34
Oliver N Housestronger even though their lives are val equally valuable. Why? I think that some men should do that. Absolutely. Why? Because you should want to protect those who are weaker than you. Why though? Why though? If if it's just a
01:22:48
Andrew Wilsonmatter of you saying because you're stronger, then you switch what you're doing is switching your case use here, which is [ __ ] it's it's equivocation. It's pissing me off cuz it's not it's not even genuine. You're making the uh
01:23:00
Andrew Wilsonequivocal case that wait a second, right? Men generally are stronger than women, so therefore should protect them because generally stronger people should protect weaker people. Okay, that follows in that aspect. you're a bit
01:23:11
Andrew Wilsonstronger, right? You have some sort of like duty or obligation to protect those weaker than you. But when you're in a situation like the [ __ ] Titanic, right, where your strength differential doesn't [ __ ] matter at all, right?
01:23:24
Oliver N HouseYou're still prescribed that the women get the lifeboats, bro. And I need you to tell me why. Why should they get the lifeboats? I think I am then expressing an intuition based on that case that is
01:23:36
Oliver N Housebased on the fact that men are generally stronger than women. So maybe in this hold on maybe in this case then they shouldn't because this case doesn't involve strength or anything like that.
01:23:48
Oliver N HouseSo in this case then maybe not in the Titanic in that case then yeah maybe noting that we yeah for women I'll retract the claim for for for they should give it up for women. Maybe not children though because
01:24:01
Oliver N Housechildren would have a longer lifespan ahead of them and men and women's lives I would agree are roughly equal but you know you can argue that children's lives many people would consider them more valuable because they have a longer life to live. Okay. So then men don't have an
01:24:13
Oliver N Houseobligation to sacrifice their lives for women in the No, they don't necessarily. Got it. I don't I don't I don't think No, I don't think each individual man I think society has an obligation to protect those who are weaker, but I
01:24:26
Oliver N Housethink that no individual person should be compelled to risk or like Well, not I didn't say compelled. I asked about duty. That wouldn't be like a foreign compellence. No, I don't think men have that duty. No, they don't have that
01:24:39
Andrew Wilsonduty. Men in general, no. those who are stronger, not to die for other people necessarily. So you don't think that there's a social obligation inside of society which shames men if they don't protect women who are physically weaker
01:24:51
Oliver N Housethan them? I think I think there is. But the thing is also is I think a man is much less likely to die than a woman in those situations. So what? So then it's much more likely to be shamed for not interjecting himself in the situation,
01:25:04
Andrew Wilsonwhich would mean that he actually would be more likely to die than the women. It's cuz he's stronger. Yeah. that that actually would increase his risk of death over women. And the average man would increase the risk of death if they're interjecting more than women.
01:25:16
Andrew WilsonYeah. Sure. What's your point? Is that correct? Yes. What's your point? Okay. So then you're you're assisting with a bias against men with the social shame of men. Do you think that men because of the stronger sex should interject on the behalf of people who are weaker than
01:25:28
Andrew Wilsonthem? If they are stronger if they're strong and on average they're going to be. Yes. Then they then what you're doing is interjecting them into significant amounts of danger over the weaker sex. It's not on the basis that they're men. It's on the basis that
01:25:40
Oliver N Housethey're stronger. But the bias selection still going to apply to men. Fine. So it would apply. So are you endorsing desperate impact theory here? I'm just really desperate impact theory. The idea that if something overwhelmingly affects
01:25:51
Oliver N Housea group, then therefore it ought to be considered um like I guess prejudice or harm against that group. So for example, if a policy was passed and it overwhelmingly disproportionately affected a racial minority or any minority regardless of the intent of I
01:26:05
Andrew Wilsonwould endorse that. But what I will say is that well this is a type of dis here's why here's a distinction right do you agree with me that people can hide their true intentions towards a thing
01:26:15
Andrew Wilsonright by um by kind of equivocating uh based on their intention. So, for instance, if I said, "Look, okay, um, this isn't a bias against midgets, but I just think that people who are 3
01:26:28
Andrew Wilsonft and below shouldn't work in Hollywood, right? I'm not biased against midgets, though, right? I'm universally applying that standard to all people." But who does it disproportionately affect the most? It does affect them. But now, now, now hang on. If I, now
01:26:40
Andrew Wilsonhang on, now hang on. Now, if I held a bias, a secret bias against midgets, I really [ __ ] hated them, right? Would that be a really good way for me to
01:26:50
Andrew Wilsonenact my will, my hatred towards those midgets by making that universal claim that uh all people 3 ft and under
01:27:00
Oliver N Houseshouldn't work in Hollywood? Sure. But Andrew, what would the benefit be of banning those people from working things like they can't get hurt as easy? Can't get hurt. Yeah. People who are 5 feet and or above, they just they don't get
01:27:13
Oliver N Househurt as easy as people who are 3 feet and below. Especially when you're on Hollywood sets and things like that. If you were making then standards that were I mean we have this Do you think it's prejudic universally apply to all people? Okay. Then then do you think it's prejuditial that we hate children
01:27:26
Andrew Wilsonbecause we have because we have height limitations on rides at roller coasters. Is that making the claim that you can't make uh even universalized prescriptions based on safety? I'm asking a specific
01:27:37
Andrew Wilsonand narrow question which is that if I hated midgets would it not then follow that if I was making prescriptions right that seemingly on their face were a bit
01:27:47
Andrew Wilsonabsurd hang on of seemingly bit on their face absurd right but did universalize them by saying it's for all people but the enaction of that really was going to disproportionately affect midgets that it might stand a reason that I had some
01:28:00
Andrew Wilsonbias against midgets do you think the now hang on I'm just saying this is conditional let Let me look at the the camera too. It's just as conditional, but don't you think that if I passed
01:28:12
Andrew Wilsonlegislation, which was disproportionately affect only one group, right? Uh but I w I I was doing it as a universal claim for all, right? That people might think my motivations
01:28:24
Andrew Wilsonwere to try to like disproportionately affect that group. Don't you think that follows? It could be, but it's not necessarily. I don't think we think men should Isn't it interesting though that you endorse feminism while at the same time having a bias against men because they're stronger? I don't have a bias
01:28:38
Oliver N Houseagainst men. Sure sounds like you do. I don't I think that those I I already said this. I think those who are stronger, regardless of sex, should protect those who are weaker. Yeah. But again, here's here's the problem. when
01:28:49
Andrew Wilsonyou claim that I'm a feminist, right, which you have, and that you're here to defend feminism, isn't it interesting that part of this p uh, you know, kind
01:28:59
Andrew Wilsonof like a prescription for society based around feminism is that it just so happens that men need to, of course, you don't mean men, you just mean stronger people, but men have to interject and
01:29:11
Andrew Wilsonput themselves in harm's way more than women do. and you happen to be a feminist, you don't think people are going to put two and two together and think that well perhaps you have a bit of bias towards men. Bias towards men or
01:29:23
Oliver N Housebias against men? Yeah. No, I don't necessarily think that follows at all. Okay. Why not? Because I don't think that it means that you hate someone if you think that because did I say hate? Fine. Bias. Fine, Andrew. I don't think
01:29:35
Oliver N Housethat you're biased. Fine, Andrew. I don't I don't I don't think that you're biased against someone or a group of people. because they have
01:29:44
Oliver N Houseadvantages to the less well do you think that taxing the wealthy is like a bias against rich people that shows I think it can be so but but it do you think it necessarily is I didn't never said
01:29:56
Andrew Wilsonanything about any of this being necessarily the case necessarily fine okay I agree what I said was that people can hide the motiv and I do think by the way using this example of the wealthy that often
01:30:08
Andrew Wilsontimes progressives do [ __ ] hate the wealthy and blame them for problems inside of society because they think they're selfish and want to punish them. They want to punish them. Some people might do that. I'm not denying that
01:30:19
Oliver N Housethey're so the thing is that I I am in full agreement with you that wanting to wanting to punish people is a bad reason for doing that. Okay. So, uh for this duty that is going
01:30:31
Oliver N Houseto disproportionately affect men but isn't meant to target men, just people who are stronger. What do they get out of this? What do they get out? I don't think that duties um necessitate
01:30:43
Oliver N Houserewards. For example, I don't think we should reward people for like using their strength to benefit others. I just think that's something that you ought to do. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you shouldn't beat your wife. It's like, I didn't beat my wife today. You
01:30:56
Andrew Wilsonshould give me more money. It's like, of course not. Isn't a draft uh duty which necessarily benefits others based on strength? I don't agree with the draft because it's because it's compulsory. Yeah. So, is this duty though? It's
01:31:08
Oliver N Housecompulsory, right? People ought do it. You said, isn't that a compulsion? Sure. I'm not Wait, 100%. I'm But that's a legal compulsion. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be general societal like pushes towards certain things, but I
01:31:22
Oliver N Housedon't think it should be legally compelled in which you go to jail or are killed for not joining the draft. But yeah, absolutely. I think that if society is on the brink of collapse or something like that, those who are stronger should step up. The equal
01:31:34
Oliver N Housefemale duty to this be. There's not an equal female duty. And I've had this before. You had the same conversation. There is not a equal female. There's not an equal duty for those who are who would be duty that women have at all.
01:31:46
Oliver N HouseYeah, I think so. Same same duties that men would have in terms of kindness towards others, being respectful towards others wanting to lift people up. I think it is. No, it's not a duty to be kind or respectful. We've been disrespectful this whole time. Where's your kindness and and duty? Wait, I
01:31:58
Oliver N Housethink people should be Okay, Andrew, I'm sorry that I wasn't specific enough in saying that you should be generally kind. I don't think that someone Hold on, Andrew. Fine. Because wait, wait. When I say people have a duty to be
01:32:10
Andrew Wilsonkind, what you interpreted that as incorrectly is you have to be kind all the time, which is not true. Okay. So, you just generally think people should be kind. I think being kind in general
01:32:20
Andrew Wilsonis a good thing. Yeah. But the the strong person the the strong ought to protect the weak. Sure. Ought. Are they always protecting the weak? No, but you think they always should if that
01:32:31
Andrew Wilsonsituation arises. Yes. Yes. So, that would be always. Yes. Yeah. So that's a monolithic statement for an aught. But it's interesting how you move between the monolithic situation of your aught
01:32:43
Andrew Wilsonwhen it comes to that. But with the second we get to women, suddenly they don't have any of those monolithic as strange. What monolithic ought do women have? They don't because they're not stronger than men. Like what what what
01:32:56
Oliver N Houseother monolithic? Well, there's one thing they can do, men can't. Produce, Andrew. I Yeah. How come there that's not a monolithic? Because they don't. They should not have to have children. Why? Because we can we can have a
01:33:07
Oliver N Housesociety where people voluntarily have children without forcing them to do so. We can increase we can increase we can have a society where men don't voluntarily assist anybody with their strength. What do you mean? We can have a society where no one voluntarily does
01:33:20
Andrew Wilsonthat. But I think we can always use incentive structures to get to that. Yeah. But you said that they ought if you if you agree with me that there can be a society in which men are not interceding on behalf of the weaker sex in this case women or children. Right.
01:33:32
Andrew WilsonWhy ought they do that? Why ought they do what? Why ought they do that if protect if women have no compellance for duties for anything they ought to do. So hold on. I don't think that you should protect other people because you think
01:33:43
Oliver N Houseyou're owed something in return. That's the biggest problem here. I don't think men should protect women because it's like, "Oh my god, I saved you. Now you have to bear my children." I don't think that's how these things work. Nobody Nobody made that conflation that because
01:33:56
Andrew Wilsonyou saved a woman, they now have to have your children. However, there's a there's a dude. I saved your life. Therefore, women women in general have an obligation. On the monolithic, I'm even willing to be super charitable here
01:34:09
Andrew Wilsonand say that you didn't mean every single time, but like in most cases it is the case that men are stronger than women and so it should intercede on their behalf. Right. Sure. Right. That would be pretty charitable of me to say,
01:34:20
Andrew Wilsonright? Largely. Okay. So then if it's the case that women are the only ones who can have children, right? I'm want you to grant me the same charitability and say, you know what, I'm not saying
01:34:31
Andrew Wilsonthat all of them ought to have children. Okay? But we should make a prescription that they should be moving towards the idea of having children. That that's really good for society prescriptively
01:34:43
Oliver N Houseand that generally speaking, they have a duty to do it. I think yeah, I think it's a good thing when people have children generally speaking, women have a duty to have children. I think that society has an obligation to keep its
01:34:55
Andrew Wilsonpopulation growing. So generally speaking, do women have a duty to have children? Yeah. Men and women. Okay, great. So then women generally at least have a duty to have kids.
01:35:07
Oliver N HouseI think that individual women are not subject to this because Andrew, we can have Oh my god, you keep changing your position. I'm going to have a smoke while Brian let's chat. [ __ ] him. It's like a tube of toothpaste here.
01:35:20
Brian AtlasAll right, we're going to read a couple chats, guys, just during the break. Guys, if you're enjoying the stream, kindly like the video and we're going to let a chat in. Guys, now's a good time.
01:35:30
Brian AtlasIf you want to get a chat in, we have a $100 TTS. That's streamlabs.com/ whatever if you want to get it in. Also, you can support the show without any of these platforms like YouTube. Streamlabs taking their cut.
01:35:42
Brian AtlasVenmo Cash App, what we are whatever pod on both. We've got Colin on Cash App. Thank for the 10. And then Laura, I think for the five also on Cash App and we're going to let this chat in here.
01:35:55
SPEAKER_00Uh, all right, Bobby. Thank you, man. Oh, uh, I think the audio is muted. Can you, uh, check at the top? Hit the unmute button. It's vibrating but plugged before he came on the shot because it's about to Let me re-trigger.
01:36:08
Brian AtlasLet me not screw this guy over. Sorry, Bobby. One sec. Our audio was muted there. Oh, you good or There was a huge tornado that hit last
01:36:18
Brian Atlasnight. Okay. All right. One sec, guys. Should be coming in back here soon. Got Bobby. There it is. Thank you. Bobby donated
01:36:29
SPEAKER_00$100. Thank you. This male feminist better have charged his vibrating but plug before he came on the shop because it's about to be a long and slow painful
01:36:38
SPEAKER_00annihilation by Andrew. Someone called Famboy an ambulance.
01:36:48
Brian AtlasDamn. Um, do you want to respond to to Bobby on that one or? No. Okay. I'm not going to respond to just blatant insults. If someone has a question, then I'm happy to answer. Oh, it's Bobby
01:36:59
Brian Atlasdonated 100. All right. Thank you, Bobby. Appreciate it. Uh, I do know that we have some chats here. No, we're all caught up on chats, guys. Go to Twitch. If you can pull that up, Mary, guys, go
01:37:11
Brian Atlasto twitch.tv/what whatever. drop us a follow on the prime sub. Andrew just stepped away briefly to uh have a quick smoke. So guys, go to twitch.tv whatever. Oliver, help me give these
01:37:23
Brian Atlaspeople a little bit of a shout out here. We got a Logic. Thank the follow. Stiff, thank you for the follow. Director DC, thank you for the follow. What? Help me shout the people. You do your show. Oh,
01:37:33
Brian AtlasI'll do that. You do your show, Brian. I'm not announcing your All right, fair enough. contract. Killer, thank for the follow. Edgar, thank for the follow. Guys, it's been 48
01:37:46
Brian Atlasminutes since we got a tier one. Uh, an hour since we've had a prime sub. I think it's bugged, boys. Chat chat, if you're watching on YouTube, watching on Twitch, I think it's bugged, boys. Can you guys just test out Check if you have
01:37:57
Brian Atlasa little prime sub in the chat? But Grumbbo, thank for the prime. Gearans, thank for the prime. Crossy, thank for the prime. Lynn, thank for the tier one. Really appreciate it. Uh guys, if you have Amazon Prime, you can link it to
01:38:09
Brian AtlasTwitch. It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every single month. Little Twitch Prime in the chat. Uh check it out, guys. Appreciate it. Uh all right. And I'll shout you guys out if you send anything through. We do have
01:38:22
Brian AtlasAndrew back. You guys, would you guys like a shot of an energy drink or something? Grab me a beer. Yeah. Can we get Andrew a beer? Oliver, would you like I'm good. We got strawberry lemonade. I'm chilling for now. I could
01:38:33
Brian Atlasuse a little bit more water, but Can we get more water for Oliver? Watermelon lemonade. No, I'm all good. Just mango lemonade. No lemonade. You got regular. What's the matter? Is the super chat's not flowing? Where's our super chats? Yeah. What the [ __ ] What the [ __ ]
01:38:46
Brian AtlasWhere's our super chat? Ridiculous. Absurd. Bring you all this bloodshed. Oh, there we go. We got some coming through. We got some They're waiting for the break. They're waiting for the break. Get them in. We'll We'll let a couple come through, then we'll continue on with the show. $100 TTS if you guys
01:38:59
Brian Atlaswould like to get them in. Do you want some chocolate milk or I have chocolate? I'm not That's not a troll. I have chocolate milk. Maybe later. That sounds good though. Applesauce. I do I do like chocolate milk. I I should offer both of you. I'm good for now. I'm No. Applesauce. Okay. Chocolate milk. Maybe
01:39:12
SPEAKER_00later. I'm strawberry. Okay. Beer for me. We got uh let's see this chat coming through. Jason, hey, thank you, man. Jason Castle donated $100. Olivia. So, according to your
01:39:23
SPEAKER_00logic, you would have to agree since women are stronger than children, women should not have abortions. Correct. Thank you, Mr._Enigmatic, for the question. No, you can you can bring the beer in the corner. I can respond to that quick. I
01:39:36
Oliver N Housemean, we can get into the abortion topic because I think it would be interesting, but they're people. No, no. I I'm at earlier stages, no, but we can get into that conversation. You can come this way. Um, go ahead.
01:39:49
Oliver N HouseUm, I think just generally when we're talking about the abortion discussion, I don't think that follows because I don't think, yes, I don't think that they're children and I also don't think that at least legally they should be compelled in that way if we were to grant fetal
01:40:00
Oliver N Housepersonhood. Though maybe there's a moral argument to be made um in the event of granting fetal personhood, but I don't think that would be legally compelled. Okay. And we have, let me just read
01:40:12
SPEAKER_00that. They're never sure about Okay, here it is. Plow them all donated $100. Thank you, man. They're never sure about any definition or anything really until it comes to calling you insecure about you
01:40:25
Andrew Wilsonnot wanting your wife thinking about other men while having sex with you. Pure lefttoid coke. But remember when I asked him, wouldn't you prefer to have a woman who's had sex with other men before? Yes. It's like yes. I wouldn't
01:40:37
Oliver N Housewant to date a virgin. That's true. I would I know you want to have It doesn't follow from that that it means ran through. Andrew, you don't you don't ran through dichotomy ran through. Fine. Yeah. Then a thousand people sleeping
01:40:48
Oliver N Housewith a thousand people. Probably not. I'm not I have an exact number in my head, Andrew. It's not What do you mean? Why are you saying ran through? Hold on. Because of I'm not saying that it follows that I don't want any woman
01:41:01
Andrew Wilsonwho's had sex with like an infinite number of men. Okay. It's a balancing act of so many different traits. But you want her to be able to have at least as much experience as possible. so that she
01:41:13
Oliver N Housecan make the determination. You're the bestest, right? No, not not necessarily the bestest. Of course not. Don't you want your woman to think you're the best? Wait, if I wanted her to think I was the best, I would just do what you
01:41:23
Oliver N Housedo, which is very only I don't want you to think. By the way, I didn't say that's what I do. I'm not saying you. I'm saying the position that you're position that you're advocating. Would you prefer Would you prefer that your woman thinks
01:41:36
Andrew Wilsonyou're the best? Um, because I am the best. Not because I she thinks I'm the best. So then she would need a pretty large comparative sample to make sure that you she knew that you were the
01:41:47
Oliver N Housebest, right? I don't necessarily think that that is the only criterion here. I don't I don't if if someone if I dated a woman and she had better sex with another man um and for other reasons like for example in relationships would
01:42:00
Andrew Wilsontell you about it the sex can be great. Yeah. Would you want her to tell tell you about like John ate my [ __ ] so much better than me? I mean not during the act or something like that in that way or in that way. I think that would be was like, "Can you just do this like
01:42:12
Oliver N HouseJohn used to? Would you be okay with that?" Andrew, there is a difference. Would you answer my question? Would you be okay with that? Not in that language. Not in that language. Because then that then she is actually asking that cuz John did it. Hold on. Because there are
01:42:25
Oliver N Housedifferent ways of communicating a message. If she was like cuz what that does is that's just saying you are inferior. What instead the question could be is hey in previous relationships I really liked it when this guy You want her to lie to you? No,
01:42:38
Andrew WilsonI don't want her to lie. Why is she asking you to do this thing though? If she's asking you to do the thing and in her brain she's asking you because this other guy did it and she really likes it. Right. No, she can tell me that it's another guy. So, can you do this thing
01:42:51
Andrew Wilsonthat John used to do? I really liked it in during the act or just in conversations? Yeah, in conversations. Sure. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. So, you you wouldn't mind hearing about that? No. It wouldn't bother you a bit? No. I mean, if she's constantly
01:43:04
Andrew Wilsontalking about the sex that she's had with other guys, then that would be a little bit Now, let me ask you this. How do you think it would go over if you were with your girlfriend and you were like, "Look, the problem is is that like Stacy used to really suck my dick good
01:43:15
Andrew Wilsonand you just don't." And so what you need to do is get at least two more inches of yaw down your throat. Do you think that incredibly that's incredibly crass and crude? So what you would do instead is lie, right? I would not lie.
01:43:26
Oliver N HouseI would I would have conversations with her that in in previous relationship but in your head you really want her to suck your dick like Stacy. I think you can, but I just don't think you have to say it in such like how you can do it without lying.
01:43:38
Oliver N HouseOh, yeah. Don't have sex with anyone ever be and be a virgin. Yeah. How's it How is that not having sex with anyone ever? Wait, when you're before you have sex with So So necessarily if we're talking about that's a really
01:43:51
Andrew Wilsonuncharitable. No, it was totally charitable. You were offiscating. No, I was not offiscating. You were offiscating. So the question the question is right why would you not
01:44:01
Andrew Wilsonprefer if it led to more happiness for your woman she was actually object objectively happier right and you were objectively happier why would you prefer
01:44:13
Andrew Wilsonto have a higher sample size to compare yourself against if it led to like these worser outcomes in relationships. What do you mean worse outcomes? What would the worse outcome? They're less happy. less happy because they are making
01:44:24
Oliver N Housecomparisons to other people where those comparisons don't need to be made. I think there's a balancing act between the truth and happiness. Do you think people like I mean this is a really interesting way to put it. Do you think
01:44:34
Oliver N Houselike living in like bliss where you don't know reality but are really happy is preferable to being less happy but being in tune with reality. No, I think actually this goes to my point, not
01:44:45
Andrew Wilsonyours. Right. So I think that you don't need to do heroin. I think you don't need to do heroin to ever make a comparison, right, between like beer and
01:44:56
Andrew Wilsonheroin. I like beer. I like it a lot. I'm going to keep drinking it. I'm not going to do heroin, though. But isn't heroin different? Heroin could be. Isn't heroin different than beer? But hang on. Hang on. But Well, isn't uh Chad
01:45:07
Andrew Wilsondifferent than you? There. It's sex, Andrew. Yeah. And sex is very different with people, isn't it? Sure it can be. Yeah. Great. So, the thing is is like, so I have a beer, right? Heroin could be
01:45:18
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] amazing. It could be [ __ ] like the [ __ ] It could be black tar like laced with some [ __ ] insane [ __ ] I could feel like I'm on cloud n the [ __ ] but I'm not going to do it.
01:45:28
Andrew WilsonRight. Sure. And I still like beer. Yeah. Right. And I'm not going to like why do I need to have the comparison to know what I'm missing here? So what I think what I think is going on here with that is there are a lot of negative
01:45:41
Oliver N Houseoutcomes associated with heroin. You would say there's a lot of negative outcomes with duty. Wait a second. Do you want me to let me do you want me do you want me do you want me do you want me do you want to let me finish what I was saying before you say that you're going to say that the comparison is
01:45:52
Oliver N Housethere's a lot of negative outcomes to promiscuity. What I would say is I don't think those outcomes are necessarily related to the sex that the people are having. I think it's I think it's a lack
01:46:03
Oliver N Houseof communication. I think it's largely can be a lack of consent. I think it could be because you Why are virgins reporting happier sex lives? Dude, they're reporting happier sex lives. I don't because some they they prefer that
01:46:15
Andrew Wilsonbecause they don't have a comparison. Hold on. But you are I because they have no comp. It's so simple and it's like do I need to compare heroin with beer to like beer to to have like this ongoing
01:46:27
Andrew Wilsonlong-term relationship and be very happy with beer. I never need to take heroin. Why is this ne why would you ever try another beer? Why is there necessary preconditions here? Right. Well, here's the thing, right? I would say you're
01:46:40
Andrew Wilsonsatisfied with that beer, right? Yeah. I would say that sex for a woman with like a 6'6 man, right? Versus a sex with a woman with like, I don't know, a 4 foot [ __ ] tall pygmy, dude, right, is
01:46:51
Andrew Wilsongoing to be so [ __ ] different on scale. It's going to be more akin to like this and something like heroin than it would be between light beer and heavy beer. Dude, I I don't think I mean, we're completely going out on a limb
01:47:04
Andrew Wilsonhere. I don't think it at all necessarily entails that someone who's taller is going to be better at having sex. There's no no it's the idea of attraction level the idea of uh well I
01:47:16
Andrew Wilsonmean there's all sorts of of massive factors which would go into this so but I do think that it is the case right that if you have a lesser sample size right you you seem to be making this
01:47:27
Oliver N Houseclaim like ignorance is bliss Ignorance is bliss with heroin isn't it wait we know the bad things bad things for promiscuity hold on hold on hold on and this would go to the question of heroin if there were and people proposed like
01:47:40
Oliver N Housesafe injection sites for people to do it safely. If that leads to them being better off, then yes, I'm in favor of them getting the good and I don't think they're I don't think they're inherently intertwined. I
01:47:51
Andrew Wilsonjust think they so often are reduction and they can't be separated as a harm reduction. Don't you think that if we have heroin injection sites and things like this that you're normal like I'll
01:48:02
Andrew Wilsongive you a perfect example of this, the pro marijuana crowd, right? Let's all smoke weed, right? They said once marijuana is legal, it's only going to be the people who were smoking it before who just won't go to jail, right? But
01:48:15
Andrew Wilsonthat's not actually how it happened at all. What actually happened is after marijuana was legalized, now it's advertised [ __ ] everywhere non-stop and tons of people who ordinarily would
01:48:25
Andrew Wilsonnever have smoked marijuana are smoking it. Tons, right? It creates a normalization and the normalization creates the ability to have the discourse around propaganda. This is
01:48:37
Andrew Wilsonactually good. What? Right. Yeah. So, like for instance, beer commercials. Do you think beer commercials would lead more people to drink or less? Probably more people. Probably more. That makes sense to me. It follows. Same thing with
01:48:48
Oliver N Houselegalization of a thing. It generally seems to lead to more of that behavior, not less. This isn't a moderation thing, right? Well, actually, it is a moderation thing. No, but your moderation thing is just only one
01:48:59
Andrew Wilsonperson. And I'm saying that there is a there there can be No, no. My moderation thing is that every subsequent person you have, you now have more experiences to compare to for negative experiences when you never needed to do it. Just
01:49:11
Andrew Wilsonlike with drugs. Just like with drugs. Like, oh, shrooms are better than heroin. Beer is better than me. Right. The It's all a negative conotation. I read I read a book and then I read a better book and that book made the first book seem less good and I read another
01:49:24
Andrew Wilsonbook and it made both books. The problem is is that following your logic, you're [ __ ] on this one because following your logic, if we're talking about books, right? What's the harm generally speaking of reading Lord of the Rings and then reading like the Sword of Truth
01:49:37
Andrew Wilsonand thinking the Sword of Truth is less good than the Lord of the Rings? You want to have those comparisons for knowledge. Those are actually good comparisons. Not so good. Like nobody's ever going to report their happiness
01:49:48
Andrew Wilsonlevel, their general wellness level in society has decreased because they read The Lord of the Rings and then after that the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. Bro, they definitely will do that with drugs and they will definitely do
01:50:00
Oliver N Housethat with uh relationships, especially interpersonal ones because they're elongated. Relationships are elongated. I guess so. Then I'm curious for you. Do you hold the same standard for men and women that it's bad for them to have
01:50:11
Andrew Wilsonpromiscuous sex and they should wait until I definitely think that promiscuity in men is a [ __ ] problem. Okay, 100% hold the same exact standard.
01:50:21
Andrew WilsonBut here's my caveat. It is generally less damaging overall in society if men are promiscuous than women are generally and like based on so here's here's
01:50:33
Andrew Wilsongenerally why that is true now again the caveat here is both are bad okay so I will make this distinction that if there's no male promiscuity there can't be female promiscuity you agree with that and same thing if there's no female
01:50:45
Oliver N Housepromiscuity there's not going to be male promiscuity right well unless there were samesex relationships but between men and women, dude. Okay. Well, you set a general prescription on
01:50:56
Andrew Wilsonsociety and I was putting fine. Okay. First of all, in samesex relationships, even when they're married, there's massive amounts of promiscuity by the numbers, right? The unfaithfulness rating for married gay men is outrageous. The amount of sex parties
01:51:09
Oliver N Housethey have, outrageous. The amount of promiscuity is [ __ ] outrageous. So, anyway, so there's that. Well, statistics on that. We would have to look at The statistics aren't even questioned on that. Hold on. Where do you think gets reported more? Bro, what
01:51:22
Oliver N Housewhat do you think gets reported more in terms of infidelity? I think within samesex relationships because that's easier with sex because the sample size is so small. It's also much more normalized within those communities. They're a lot more gay men. Yeah. And
01:51:35
Oliver N Housethat's bad though, right? That's not good, right? I think it's bad if they're not informing their partner the same way it's bad if a heterosexual couple is not informing their So, wait a second. Wait,
01:51:45
Andrew Wilsonwait, wait a second. So you think then that if you're in like a heterosexual married relationship, if it's an open relationship, that's healthy. It can be for certain people. No, it's not healthy
01:51:56
Andrew Wilsonfor basically anybody. They almost all like 90% of them actually no it's higher. It's like 95% of them fail. Open marriages 95% fail. Open relationships like 95% fail. It's insane. Where are
01:52:09
Andrew Wilsonyou getting the stats from, Andrew? Yeah. So these stats actually came I think there was a combination of Pew Research but there was and the only reason I know this one off the top of my head uh that it's 90 95% is because of
01:52:20
Andrew WilsonCuck Destiny who that this was quoted at him non-stop right and what happened with his relationship I have no idea I don't follow him he was married in an open relationship and guess what everyone told him bro it's going to fail
01:52:32
Andrew Wilsonand guess what happened it failed and why did it fail the same reason all of them fail now not only do you have a comparative sample right but you can go test Now you can just go test it whenever you want to, right? That doesn't seem like
01:52:44
Andrew Wilsonit's very good for society in general, like for your parents to have open relationships and going out and like sleeping with other people. That seems like if the if the failure rate's that high, that would be I mean I and I can I
01:52:56
Oliver N Houseguess I think that largely it also comes from a lack of honesty between people. That can be a huge contributing factor is largely because of guilt, because of shame, because of people who don't think that's we just dstigmatized it. I I I
01:53:09
Oliver N Housethink it I think I'm not claiming that it Wait a second, Andrew. I'm not claiming that everything would get better. And I'm also not claiming that open marriages are better than closed marriages. I would agree with you at least from personal experiences. That's
01:53:21
Oliver N Housenot my cup of tea. But I don't you in an open relationship, not directly an open relationship, but like if you're not like officially dating, but people are seeing multiple people. That's not my
01:53:32
Andrew Wilsonthing. Okay. But it doesn't mean I know people who that works for. It doesn't work for me. I'm not I don't know anybody is long-term work for. Dude, I went to Oberlin College, man. No. No. None of these people will long-term work for basically. Basically, none. No, I
01:53:46
Andrew Wilsondon't think that's true at all. It is true. Like, by the numbers, it's true. So, like when it comes to open relationships, right, especially open marriages, that's usually one of the number one signs of failure, in fact, is that one couple or one partner asks to
01:53:58
Andrew Wilsonopen up the relationship. Okay? Like, imagine that. Just think about that for a second. If you if a man's wife came to him and just wanted to be open and honest and said, "Listen, honey, I just want to go [ __ ] this other guy, but
01:54:12
Andrew Wilsonthat's not how she frames it. She's going to be nice like you." She's going to say, "Listen, there's some satisfaction issues that I have in the bedroom and this is going on and that's how how bad do you think that guy would feel like on a scale of 1 to 10?"
01:54:23
Oliver N HouseProbably not great, but I think that probably then I think that hopefully would initiate a conversation where he's like, "Oh, okay. Do you mind if we try out things that you like and we see if
01:54:36
Andrew Wilsonthat's something that I'm okay with? Or he could just say, "Fuck it. That's not something I'm okay with. If you choose to do that, I'm getting a divorce." So, so that's fine. You're allowed to have that preference. Yeah. If a woman came to you and said that she wanted to like
01:54:48
Andrew Wilsonopen up your relationship to sleep with other men, right? Would that make you feel really bad? Um, it would make me realize there's a problem. Yeah. Would you want to stay in a relationship where that was the solution your partner proposed to you that she would sleep with other men? I would have a
01:55:01
Oliver N Houseconversation with her. I don't know. It would it would really depend on exactly what she wanted. If if if she proposed that actually it would it would be a dealbreaker if she wasn't talking to me about her need. So, for example, if she
01:55:13
Oliver N Housewas never complaining, granted, this is not a problem that I've had, but if she was talking about this and like never was vocalizing her dissatisfaction and the first thing she said was, "I want to open the relationship." Then I would be
01:55:25
Andrew Wilsonlike, "What the heck? Why didn't we discuss this earlier?" She just expressed her dissatisfaction for for a long time. For a long time. Okay. Yeah. Then I think we would probably break up then cuz there seems to be an incompatibility there that might do it.
01:55:36
Andrew WilsonNow, what if she never would have vocalized any of this because she had no dissatisfaction cuz she never [ __ ] anybody but you? No. What about that? That's [ __ ] weird. Can you can you can you answer that? Hang on. Can you
01:55:47
Andrew WilsonNo. Would you have a preference though that if you took that same woman, right? Same woman. You really liked her. Everything was great. And if it were the case that she'd had no comparative sample size, she would have stayed with
01:55:59
Oliver N Houseyou. Would you have preferred that? No. No. No. I don't think so. I don't How is that good for people's health and wellness? Dude, Andrew, it's really Wait, Andrew, but can can you acknowledge to me that it's kind of
01:56:10
Oliver N Houseweird to not want to want someone to think you're the best, not because you're good at what you do, but just because they don't know any better. No, I'm sorry. Hang on. They don't know any better. Hang on. This is this is such a stupid argument. Let me point out why
01:56:23
Andrew Wilsonit's stupid. If you lived in an island nation that had 1,000 people, right, and you were the very best at running whatever the marathon was that you ran on the island and nobody was better than you, is it not appropriate for you to think that you're the best? Because
01:56:36
Andrew Wilsonobviously globally, even though you don't know about them, there's like a million people who have broken every record you've ever broken. Sure. What does that have to do? Yeah. So, why is it not why is it inappropriate for that
01:56:46
Oliver N Houseguy uh to think of himself as the best and the people of that island nation to think of him as the best? I don't think there's a problem with I I I don't think of course not. Of course not, Andrew. I don't see how your island example
01:56:58
Andrew Wilsonfollows in because it's the same thing. She's an island when it comes to sex. She has no comparative for as far as she's concerned. You're that track runner. You're the best. Nobody runs the
01:57:09
Andrew Wilsonmarathon [ __ ] better than you. And guess what? Even if they did, she'd have no contextualization anymore than the guy in the Island Nation. And you think that that's fine in the island nation to glorify him, but for some reason inside of relationship it's not. I don't I
01:57:22
Oliver N Housedon't care about the island example because I think it's a silly hypothetical that I don't care about. Why? It's completely you you're mapping it so far from reality. Here's the point, Andrew. It's the same reality,
01:57:33
Oliver N HouseAndrew. I think the problem here is it's strange to not want someone to know what they like or know better. So, you're all they know. They do know what they like. What do you They like what you They like
01:57:46
Andrew Wilsonyou and what you're doing. They know it 100%. Sure. Because they've never seen anything else, which is which is just it's it's Wait a second. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is it the case that they really
01:57:56
Andrew Wilsonlike having sex with you, but it is also the case that it's possible they could really like having sex with someone else? It is. Absolutely. It's possible. Okay, great. Isn't that the case with every human being? Of course, it is. So,
01:58:08
Andrew Wilsonif that's the case, then if it is the case that you happen to have a human being who doesn't have this massive comparative sample and she's super happy with that, why would you want to [ __ ] that up? I wouldn't I'm not saying I
01:58:21
Andrew Wilsonwould [ __ ] it up or I'm saying it would [ __ ] it up. I wouldn't it be good for society? Good for society. If people have less sex, they would be having more sex and more satisfactory sex. I don't think that's necessarily true. Well,
01:58:32
Andrew Wilsonthen why do they do I why why is it that virgin couples, man and woman, by the way, report the most amount of sexual satisfaction over any other sexual demographic in the [ __ ] existence of
01:58:43
Oliver N Househumanity? Because largely, I think they are living lifestyles that are in accordance with the values that they hold. If other people who did not hold those values and had different desires were forced into that type of situation,
01:58:56
Andrew Wilsonit doesn't necessarily it doesn't necessarily follow. It's secularist and it's Hindus and it's Christians and it's Muslims and it's everybody across all demographics. Why? What would be the common
01:59:09
Andrew Wilsondenominator? Those are people who are choosing those types of relationships or were they forced into those types of relationships? So, here's the thing. If you're talking about and I'll grant you this, if you're talking about like an