Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Oliver | Whatever Debates #18
Date: 2025-05-17
Duration: 5h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_04Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:10
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Oliver N House (Oberlin triple-major)
00:45:55
Key MomentOliver admits prefers experienced women; Andrew labels it 'certified pre-f***ed woman worship'
02:17:48
Key MomentAndrew says 'woman, get me a beer' to production staff; Oliver stands up in protest
02:39:48
ControversyAge gap debate: Oliver calls 41yo dating 18yo predatory but cannot give precise cut-off. 40+ min argument.
05:16:00
Key MomentOliver apologizes for reckless language implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies
05:32:42
AgreementOliver concedes Andrew won on rhetoric but reaffirms feminist vision
Topics Discussed
00:00:10
Opening Statements
Andrew lists feminist-caused male burdens. Oliver defines feminism as equal rights, cites dual-income poverty protection.
00:33:36
Promiscuity and Virginity Debate
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Oliver: prefers experienced women. 'Certified pre-f***ed' exchange.
02:39:48
Age Gap Relationships
Oliver: 41-year-olds dating 18-year-olds is predatory but can't specify age cut-off. Andrew refuses to move on for ~40 min.
04:25:54
Misandry and Kill All Men
Oliver: 'kill all men' is imprecise frustration, less harmful than misogyny. Andrew challenges the differential impact claim.
05:16:00
Jim Bob PDF Implication
Andrew confronts Oliver about implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies. Oliver apologizes.
05:26:54
Closing Statements
Andrew claims total victory. Oliver concedes rhetoric loss but reaffirms feminist vision.
Transcript
Page 3 of 7
01:59:20
Andrew Wilsonarranged relationship, right, sometimes they do report massive dissatisfaction. This I understand, right? Is the conditional because of the arranged marriage itself? I think you could make a case that there's at least some of
01:59:33
Andrew Wilsonthat, right? But historically, most most marriages were arranged. In most Asian nations, they're still [ __ ] arranged. And the satisfaction rate for virgins, even in arranged marriages, is still higher. It's still [ __ ] higher. And and do you think that's a So, I'm just
01:59:45
Oliver N Housecurious, Andrew. No, I'm just I'm not saying it's good. I'm just pointing out that it's true. It is. So, then do you think, and I'm I'm making a hypothetical here, maybe it's not the case. What if what if uh satisfaction rates in
01:59:55
Oliver N Housemarriage were the best they could ever be if every marriage was arranged? Oh, [ __ ] yes. Absolutely. You could never make a case why that would be bad. I think so. How? Because I don't think
02:00:06
Oliver N Housethat people should be choosing who other people's partners are. Why? If that led to the best outcomes, you would have no argument for that. So, wait then can I just make the same argument towards you about you were talking about the whole
02:00:17
Andrew Wilsonincest and brother case? What about it? Then you're saying that there is a better reason as to why if it were the case, right? Um then and and I and you said it had the best outcomes, but you were still against it based on
02:00:30
Andrew Wilsonintuition. That's where you would have the inconsistency, conditionally, you're intuitively against it. I literally told you the opposite. Hold on. Because I think for these cases, No, I think for
02:00:42
Oliver N Housethese cases, our intuitions are responding to the very factors that we tried to stipulate out. Uh, no that's not always the case. I think for this case it absolutely
02:00:52
Oliver N Houseis talking about Andrew then then let then let me go back on my previous statement and say that if if that situation that you provided then yeah then yes of course because now you have to be consistent because I point out you
02:01:05
Oliver N Househad another inconsistency. I don't remember saying that. I remember I what I was doing, Andrew, what I was doing is I was contesting the realisticness of your hypothetical and saying that I don't think that would be borne out. I don't think that would be
02:01:17
Oliver N Houseborne out in reality. I don't think that incest. No, that that it would be good. How? Wait, what do you mean? You're saying that this if the satisfaction rates were in those incestuous relationships were through the roof,
02:01:30
Oliver N Housethen would you want would you think that would be a fine thing? I was contesting that I don't think that would ever be borne out in reality. So in the hypothetical that you propose, sure,
02:01:39
Andrew WilsonI'll accept a hypothetical borne out in reality. Do you think that incestuous couples Yeah. there would be children who would be happy with that? Do do well
02:01:51
Oliver N Houseby I think by your metric, yes, there would be. No. Why? I mean, we can look at the we can look at the already presented data of of of heterosexual coup. And I think if you had, by the way, an incestuous lobby the same way
02:02:03
Andrew Wilsonyou have a gay lobby who paid for all the same [ __ ] studies that showed the outcomes that I could have a massive publishing bias as well for basically any data that I wanted because the truth is that most of these you're making an unfalsifiable claim that we're making.
02:02:16
Andrew WilsonIt's not unfalsifiable. I'll give you account. I'll give you a claim. Here's the claim. Here's the claim. The claim is most LGBTQ and trans studies are funded by gay groups and gay adjacent groups and that's who they're funded by.
02:02:27
Andrew WilsonThat is the truth. Sure. And I look I don't I've not looked into who funds every single but I mean that's that's why there's so much publishing bias. Fine. Conditionally, in fact, one of the biggest points for the left is that that's okay though, especially in the
02:02:40
Andrew Wilsontrans community. It's okay that mostly it's trans advocate organizations who are paying for these studies because well, nobody would look at it if they didn't. And it's like it totally ignores the bias which would go into people who
02:02:52
Oliver N Housewanted those results. So Andrew, what I think instead you should do instead of merely saying that these studies are BS because of the organizations that are funding them, just point out what's wrong with the research. Yeah. Well, I
02:03:04
Andrew Wilsondo often so then the first part so like trans research when we're talking about brain studies, I can point all of that out. When we're talking about incest studies though, this isn't even a thing which is willing to be studied, right?
02:03:15
Andrew WilsonMostly because men like me are like, "Fuck no, no way." Uh, it's unbelievably [ __ ] disgusting, right? We intuitively are against it. But for you, the outcomes guy, right? You shouldn't really have any issues whatsoever if
02:03:28
Oliver N Housethere actually is an outcome, which is preferable. Well, Andrew, you would be you would for one, you'd have to be putting people directly in harm's way and saying you have to have like an incestuous relationship just already existing. If it already exists, yeah,
02:03:41
Andrew Wilsonyou should study. I mean, abs if they already exist. Yes. Exactly. So if the evidence shows that it is the case that incestuous relationships by two willing partners and there's by the way incest,
02:03:52
Andrew Wilsonthere are incest groups which do advocate for these [ __ ] things. Not kidding, right? And make the affirmative claim that they're happy. It's an unfalsifiable. I think they're wrong. Yeah. You think they're wrong that
02:04:04
Oliver N Housethey're happy? Wait, no, no, no, wait. I think they're wrong that generally in these types of relationships that it does lead to the best outcome for the family. So that's all I'm saying. Okay. Well, let me ask you this. What if they just wanted to have that relationship
02:04:16
Oliver N Houseand they just wanted to have it without without without children or something like that? I think there's I mean the ethics of incest is an interesting philosophical twin brothers. Mhm. What's the problem? What's the problem with it?
02:04:29
Oliver N HouseIf they want to engage in consensual activity, I think it is strange and I don't understand it. Andrew, here's the thing though, Andrew. Well, I don't It's strange. Great argument, bro. It's strange. Andrew, Andrew, here's the
02:04:41
Oliver N Houseproblem is if we go through, for example, I just took a bioeththics course and we were talking about the ethics of incest and the fact that it is really hard to pin down the exact wrong
02:04:51
Oliver N Houseof incest when looking at it directly if you remove the genetic factors, if you remove a lot of the familial factors. The problem is I'm not going to get into an argument where I'm defending incest on. But you already did multiple times. No, I didn't defend it. You defended it
02:05:04
Oliver N Housemultiple times. I did not defend incest because I said that's not the case. it will not be um good for these people. So the reason we we sidelined and I'm not
02:05:15
Andrew Wilsongoing to let you kind of like evade the point back to this idea of sample size, this is what we're actually talking about which led to this. Why is it again
02:05:25
Andrew Wilsonthat you think that if it is the case that when people get married virgins, right, they report the largest amount of happiness in their relationships stay together basically more than almost any other demographic. by the way, it's
02:05:37
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] insane. Like, why is it that you would not want to advocate for that in society, even if you didn't make laws, but you just made social advocation towards it? I'm also not advocating in favor of like insane hookup
02:05:50
Andrew Wilsonculture. Don't dude, answer my question. Wait, I think it's fine. Absolutely advocate. So, so what if what if we had government policy? No, that's different. Hang on. Okay, continue. Well, I don't understand. Don't you want government policy which says that being LGBTQ is
02:06:04
Oliver N Houseokay? um government policy which pro permits people to No rainbow flags in the White House. I don't really care about that. I think that's I think I think I don't really care where the flags are. I think if that's going to just rile a bunch of
02:06:16
Andrew Wilsonpeople. But what would actually be the problem? There's no law which is restricting anything. But the government, right, in state
02:06:24
Andrew Wilsonorganizations from the top down, right, promoted instead that um low people with low body counts and who are not promiscuous tended to report much higher happiness levels and their marriages
02:06:36
Oliver N Housestay together better and for the health of the nation, they'd prefer to move a population towards that. What would be wrong with that? I don't think there would necessarily be anything wrong with that. That's what I advocate for. Okay. And I'm not fully against that. I'm just saying, you know who is feminists.
02:06:49
Oliver N HouseThey're not entire. No, they're not entirely against it. Which which feminist organization Hold on. They Here's the problem with this. You're saying that individuals advocating for that as a good lifestyle because it works for them and it individual working
02:07:02
Oliver N Housefor that. What did I say? What do you say? What's my position? Your position is that there should be government funded propag. Wait, I was talking about the reason that feminist organizations would be
02:07:14
Oliver N Houseagainst that government style of push. Why? Okay. Why? because it is prescribing onto everyone a type of lifestyle that doesn't work for everyone. It's saying that you should do this. Wait, what's the prescription? The
02:07:27
Oliver N Houseprescription is you should wait until sex to have marriage or wait until marriage to have sex and the outcomes are better. The outcomes can be better for people. Well, no, for for most everybody, the outcomes are better. At
02:07:39
Andrew Wilsonleast from the reported data. When you say like certain people, it's like, okay, dude. Yeah. I I guess you could make the case that like uh grape is bad for certain people. No, for certain people. No, it's bad for everyone. No,
02:07:52
Andrew Wilsonit's only bad for certain people. Here, like there's women, you agree, who have orgasmed during essay? That has nothing to do with whether it's essay, bro. That has nothing to do with whether it's essay. Are you kidding me, bro? I didn't say whether or not it's essay. I said
02:08:04
Andrew Wilsonduring essay. Yeah. What What does it have to do with anything? Well, bro, if that's the case, right, then was it bad for them? Yes. Why? Absolutely. because there are overriding harms than just
02:08:16
Andrew Wilsonorgasm. I'm not saying that's not the case. What? Perfect. So then here's the case then. The case is is like when you say for some people, right? The reason you keep saying that is because even though it's the vast overwhelming
02:08:29
Andrew Wilsonmajority of people, you want to like create this little minutia outlier, right? Is it logically possible that there's ever been a woman who's been S8 who'd enjoyed it? I I'm not going to Can you answer my
02:08:41
Andrew Wilsonquestion? Is it logically possible? Logically possible. Sure. Okay. Sure. Yeah. But that that's not But I'm not I'm not ascribing anything. Do you think there's ever been a single woman who's who's been essayed and has enjoyed it? You're not going to answer the question.
02:08:54
Oliver N HouseAnswer the question. I'm not going to answer the question because then I can't say something. I'm not going to answer I'm not going to answer whether women enjoy being great. That's not what I asked you. Whether a woman has enjoyed being great. If there's ever been one. Do you think there's ever been one? I'm
02:09:06
Oliver N Housenot No, I'm not answer. You don't think there has been? I don't know. And I'm not going to answer. I'm not. This is such a weird thing. What do you This is such a weird thing. What's wrong with answering the question? Because I'm not going to say
02:09:19
Oliver N HouseI'm not going to contribute to rhetoric that tries to say that there is anything good about essay. Who said there's anything good about it? You just said that some women orgasm. Therefore, that is a good No, no, no. I was running an
02:09:31
Andrew Wilsoninternal critique and saying if it is the case of X, then why? That's not me advocating for that position. Don't lie. That's one. And two, when we move into this, right, here's here's what I'm
02:09:43
Andrew Wilsonsaying to you, and I'll ask this question again. Do you think that there's been at least one woman who's ever existed that was essayed and liked it? I don't know. You don't think? What do you think? I I don't know. I'm not
02:09:55
Andrew Wilsongoing to answer that question, Andrew. Because then I could say because then I could say, well, why make the prescription shouldn't say because some people don't like it. No. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. It's the same [ __ ] dude. Same
02:10:08
Oliver N House[ __ ] Andrew, do you think wait hold on wait a second here. Do you think the harm of of essay of grape is equivalent to the harm of those who um have more
02:10:18
Oliver N Housepromiscuous lifestyles? No. No. Okay. So there is a differential in harm. What what what does that have to do with anything? Then I could still say some people by your but then if you even take that metric that there was some there
02:10:30
Oliver N Housewould be an overwhelming harm that would over overwhelm that. And I'm not saying, but I'm saying the harm is not equivalent between that and the need to be equivalent. All it needs to be is analogous for some people. That's it.
02:10:43
Andrew WilsonMhm. Yeah. That's it. Why does it need to be an equivalency for harm? All it needs to do is be an overriding harm. Doesn't need to be It doesn't need to be the next Holocaust. I don't think it's an over. Doesn't need to be the next It doesn't need to be the next Holocaust for it to be an overriding harm. Say it
02:10:55
Andrew Wilsonhas to be. I'm saying that I don't think the harm of that. So then why are you making why so then why are you faciously arguing this right by saying well wait a second Andrew I'm not going to answer this question because if I do then you
02:11:07
Oliver N Housecould say some people the same way that I am. No because the Andrew why don't you why don't you utilize another example that could not be interpreted as grape apologist. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I think it is it
02:11:19
Andrew Wilsonis it is harmful to kind of weaponize the trauma of SA survivors to make a kind of I think it's super harmful to be pro to have the promotion of promiscuity when you yourself have admitted now
02:11:32
Andrew Wilsonmultiple times that by not being promiscuous getting married as a virgin, right? It makes sense to not have that comparative sample size for happiness and you're still against it. You're driving harm. Well, I'm I am driving that is driving harm literally. Do you
02:11:45
Oliver N Housethink that there can be greater goods than harm? Sorry, greater fine. Sorry. Greater bads than harm. I think there can be I think there can be. I don't think for example I think I think restriction of autonomy and taking away
02:11:57
Oliver N Housepeople's freedom even if they're going to do something that makes them unhappy does not always follow that that's what we should do. People should be free. That's just rule. People should be free. No, no, no. People should be free to make bad decisions. I'm not I'm not
02:12:08
Andrew Wilsonsaying I'm a utilitarian. That's rule utilitarianism. That's like say you're like utilitarianism. All you're doing is saying rules. It's Yeah, but Well, that would be wrong. I'm saying that would be What are you talking about? No, I'm
02:12:19
Andrew Wilsonsaying that autonomy is more important than harm. No, it's not. No, no, that's stupid. Like, that makes no sense. What you're actually making the case for is if somebody was about to like unal alive
02:12:31
Andrew Wilsonthemselves. Oh my god. And And they wanted to Is that the harm, Andrew? And I ran. No, no, no. I'm making your case. Okay. I don't know why you're getting mad at me for making your case. And then I ran in and stopped them. I'm definitely stopping their autonomy.
02:12:43
Oliver N HouseSure. And you would just say that that's good. Sure. So there can be rules and then exceptions to the rules, right? I'm not arguing that on that rule utilitarian basis. I I bas I'm saying there you can balance different
02:12:56
Oliver N Houseconsiderations. That doesn't follow that the general overwhelming principle is harm. There can be multiple things that you value. Rule utilitarianism values pleasure and pain overwhelmingly so. And
02:13:08
Andrew Wilsonthen there's exceptions for autonomy. I'm saying that you can hold two things as equivalent at the same. Well, the same the [ __ ] you're you're uh pushing is still hydonic the same way. It's still just basic hedenism. That's the
02:13:20
Oliver N Houseonly way that you're assessing what is harmful anyway. No, I don't think so. What else are you using as a metric for what's harmful here? What's harmful for? I mean, it would also um involve individuals who are reporting whether they're satisfied or not. That would be
02:13:32
Oliver N Househedonistic. Not hedonistic. How is it not? Hold on. Do you think if someone says they're satisfied with their life that they inherently mean that their life is pleasurable or they could have their desires satisfied or they could feel that they are checking off a list
02:13:44
Andrew Wilsonof things that are valuable to them? It doesn't overwhelm yes because overfuckingwhelmingly yes. When a person says I'm happy, they mean I'm satisfied. Yes. Wait, wait. Like pleasure like but
02:13:56
Oliver N Housewait, hold on. Just because of pleasure. Yes. Well, what do you mean? Are you I'm sorry. If you're miserable, are you experiencing pleasure? People can be unhappy with certain aspects of their life and still say that there are overwhelming considerations that are
02:14:08
Oliver N Housedesire. Hold on. I don't but are you saying everything reduces to pleasure? I'm saying in your view it does. It doesn't. You're trying to straw man my view. I'm not saying everything. If I am, I will take a step back then and just make sure I get this right. How is
02:14:21
Andrew Wilsonit not if a person is reporting satisfaction and things like this not related to the ideas of pleasure? How are they reporting that? Because
02:14:31
Oliver N Housepeople can be satisfied in things that aren't pleasure-based people. Hold on. Well, I mean, a famous example of this would be Robert Nosix's experience machine. Have you heard of that? Yes, of course. You can plug them into the experience machine. They get positive experiences for the rest of their life.
02:14:44
Oliver N HouseMost people's intuitions against it. Say no. Yeah. Yeah. So, so people value things other than just pure. That's not what that shows. Yeah, it does. No. The experiment is not showing that they value things other than just pleasure,
02:14:56
Andrew Wilsonconnection with reality. No, it's that there could possibly be some sort of like consciousness intuition that makes you value things that are not pleasurable. That's it. Sure. You can
02:15:09
Andrew Wilsonvalue things separate from pleasure. Well, yeah, but that doesn't it it's saying that consciousness itself may What do you mean consciousness? Well, like we are conscious. I'm saying we are. Yeah, but but but no, but it's it's
02:15:22
Andrew Wilsonasking a question about consciousness itself. It's asking a question about you. No, it's asking about what you value. Yeah. But so then your consciousness I value having things that are separate from just pleasure. Yeah. But you have
02:15:33
Andrew Wilsonto be conscious because if you're talking about the pleasure machine, you don't exist in the pleasure machine. No, you do. No, your consciousness exists in the pleasure machine. Well, this is this would be this would be a whole different
02:15:44
Andrew WilsonLord, Andrew. This would be in a whole different [ __ ] think that a person who's unconscious is not a [ __ ] person, dude. Well, correct. Cuz they can actualize their mind. No, when they're asleep. Yeah. How? It's called
02:15:56
Andrew Wilsonwaking up that then they're not asleep. No. Yeah, they're still a person throughout that. Yes, of course. So, so the pleasure machine is talking about consciousness and I think we learn I
02:16:08
Oliver N Housethink we not talking about you. I'm saying that fundamentally we are and there's this whole know this by you're a philosophy student. I like this is old philosophy. If you read Nosik's exact
02:16:20
Oliver N Houseexample, he contradicts everything you're saying because he's saying that one of the things that follows from the experience machine is that people value things independent from pleasure such as
02:16:31
Andrew Wilsonthe truth and being in contact with reality. Yes. But the person he's assuming the person is consciousness though. That's baked in as the assumption. Correct. That's my point. Okay. That's what it's showing. So Oh,
02:16:44
Andrew Wilsonand if you don't Yeah. F. If you don't accept a if you don't accept that theory of of mind, Do you see what I'm saying now? Fine. Okay. That may that follows, right? If it follows if you reject that we fundamentally are our brains. So then
02:16:54
Andrew Wilsonso then in this case Yeah. So then in this case the you the actual you may not be really experiencing that pleasure just your consciousness is I don't I
02:17:06
Oliver N Housedon't see a differential between the two. Like okay in this reality do you like steak? In this reality do I like steak? Yeah I do. Okay. But in the matrix could you hate steak? Um I don't think so. I don't I I don't
02:17:18
Andrew Wilsonif I hated stake in that reality. But I think if you don't hold everything constantly. Yeah. The reputation to this that's this what I'm saying is like the reputation to this my argument for me Andrew. I'm saying no I'm giving a
02:17:28
Andrew Wilsonreputation to the consciousness machine. Okay. What the reputation is is like the reason people's intuition likely is against it is because they feel like if they're consciousness is what is going
02:17:40
Andrew Wilsoninto the machine. This is all intuitive of course and this is speculative that they're in the Matrix and tasty wheat like you remember that scene in the Matrix where it was like ta does tasty wheat tastes like steak or does it taste
02:17:52
Andrew Wilsonlike this? Right. They want actual experience. Yes. Right. Actual experience not conscious experience. So if your pleasure whatever you consider pleasurable in the matrix may not be real. People also might want their
02:18:04
Andrew Wilsonconsciousness embodied and in the real world. But if you ask that question a separate way. If you say you don't go into a pleasure machine, but just the rest of your life you have pleasurable experiences, people's answers
02:18:15
Oliver N Housedrastically [ __ ] change. That's why it's about consciousness. And I Okay, I don't see how you understand now. I don't see how that's relevant to the It's totally relevant because we're talking about who you is. Okay, we're having that's a very far away from
02:18:27
Andrew Wilsonfeminism. I agree. But we went down this road cuz you brought up the [ __ ] consciousness machine and then and then tried to refute me when I said that's about consciousness and about who you are. A lot of people view themselves as their conscious experiences. Think about
02:18:40
Brian Atlasit. No, Andrew. Fine. If Okay. Well, we can do do a thought experiment here. If you were Andrew Andrew, do you guys want to bring it back to feminism? Let's do that. All right. Uh before we do though, another beer from the assistant. Sure.
02:18:51
Brian AtlasLet's get another beer for Andrew. Would you like uh I'm good. Chocolate milk or I'm good for now. Thank you. All right. We have a couple chats. I'm going to let about uh we got about four or five chats
02:19:01
SPEAKER_00to get through and then we'll move it back to feminism. So, we have Zam Zigg Octavius donated
02:19:10
SPEAKER_00$100 Oliver the Missandry apologist. What is a woman? What are your pronouns? What do you think of Z/Z/z or other near pronouns? Andrew,
02:19:22
Andrew Wilsoncan you debate Oliver on force doctrine? And is he a missandist? I want to try something here just to just to do it. I'm so convinced that I know the inside
02:19:33
Andrew Wilsonand outs of Oliver's all of Oliver's positions. I would like to answer that question and then just see if you agree that that's what you believe. We can do that. Go ahead. Which Yeah. Okay, fine. Yeah, let's start and then and then the
02:19:45
SPEAKER_00flip side. Let's see if you can do that for me. Of which one of Yeah, pull it up. Yeah, I'll re-trigger it. So it's a woman donated $100. There's
02:19:56
SPEAKER_00not really a way to Oliver the Mandre apologist. What are your pronouns? What do you think of neoouns? What do you think of Z/Z or other neoponouns? Andrew, can you debate Oliver on force
02:20:09
Andrew Wilsondoctrines? There's a lot there. So we'll try. So yeah. So let's start with um Oliver is a Missandria apologist. That means nothing. So when it comes to a woman, what Oliver believes that a woman
02:20:21
Andrew Wilsonis is that you can have two distinct uh positions here. So Oliver believes that a woman is there's a scientific version of this which would point to female and
02:20:31
Andrew Wilsonhe would agree with uh the idea of phenotypical uh pathways or with XY or with um OA versus sperm. He would agree with all those things from a scientific standpoint. But when it comes to what a
02:20:42
Andrew Wilsonwoman is socially, it's going to be a a kind of conglomeration of traits based on social dynamics inside of any given society at any time. And it's subject completely to change. It's basically a socially constructed term. It doesn't
02:20:54
Andrew Wilsonreally point it to anything. It's, by the way, extremely complex to really make those determinations. But it is more than a self-identification. It really has to do with social traits between interpersonal dynamics of people. Is that about right? A little. I
02:21:07
Oliver N HouseI think a little bit. I think what you're leaving out largely is that there is a very very important relational component to the woman question. I'm not disagreeing that necessarily there is
02:21:19
Oliver N Houselike it's entirely dependent on social. You know what I mean? Like I feel like what I just said well I feel like you're placing a lot of a lot more emphasis on social than necessarily biological. I for example so here's a here's an
02:21:30
Andrew Wilsonexample that I would bring up no more. It just it just you have to have a bigger descriptor there because when I point out biological, I can explain that quickly. Sure. And I think that it's I
02:21:42
Oliver N Housethink it would actually make sense for some women to view womanhood as biological and thus being like, hey, you know, it makes me feel a little weird if there are people who can't have the capacity for pregnancy who then have that. So, I think and I don't think they're doing anything inherently wrong.
02:21:55
Andrew WilsonAnd then next, when it comes to force doctrine, Oliver's position on force doctrine is force doctrine doesn't apply because it's just always going to be some people. It's not all people. That's going to be his position. I promise you that's going to be his arguments. N
02:22:06
Brian Atlas[ __ ] promise. Let's uh let's do this. We'll read the chats and then we'll when we jump back into the feminism conversation, we'll start with force doctrine. We'll do that. So Oliver, just to the chat though. Um what are your
02:22:19
Brian Atlaspronouns? He him. What do you think about like the neo pronouns like Zamzer? He's fine with them. No, it's [ __ ] confusing, man. I think here's no here's Would you call
02:22:30
Oliver N Housesomebody by him? Yeah. Would you? The truth, Oliver? No, I wouldn't. Why not? Because I Here's here's here's why I think so. And I'll explain this. And I talked a bit with
02:22:41
Oliver N HouseBrian over text why I think or over DMs why like I think that some of the identity politics stuff does break down is I think this leads to kind of like a grammar police and also an ideological
02:22:53
Oliver N Housepurity test. So I think in terms of like neoponouns, it's like how far can I push you to accept this? call an ideological purity test, bro. And I think that's not a good thing. I think we should move away from ideological purity tests in
02:23:05
Oliver N Houseterms of allowing people to be members of a certain group or within a Then how do you gateep your ideology? I think wait I think you can gatekeep to an extent, but I don't think it should be if you if you agree with someone on 90% of things and they disagree on 10% I
02:23:18
Oliver N Housedon't think that 10% should be disqualifying from them being a general part of your movement or something like that. I think I think that's a problem the left has. So I would that's what I would say. Uh, there were two more things here real
02:23:30
Brian Atlasquick. Uh, Andrew, do you think he is a misandress? Oliver? Yes. Okay. And then, uh, Oliver, uh, maybe quick answer to this. What is a woman? But I don't think Oliver thinks he's a misandress. To be fair, no. I don't hate men. Uh, Oliver,
02:23:43
Andrew Wilsonwhat is a woman? Well, I already described. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not just a matter of hating men. I would classify you as a person who worships women. I don't worship women at all. You worship them so much that you
02:23:56
Andrew Wilsonwould prefer that they [ __ ] other men rather than you so that they don't don't have any discount on experience when they [ __ ] you. That's that's what women worship. That is not true. That is not true. I I don't necessarily think I
02:24:07
Oliver N Housethink there is a happy medium. I would not want to date so they [ __ ] some guys. Sure. To have some wait to have some experience. It's woman worship, dude. It's not woman worship. No, it's not. It's wanting someone who knows what they
02:24:19
Andrew Wilsonwant. It's listen, you know what's funny is like the only one here who's ever consistent is me, right? So, it's not just that like men shouldn't be promiscuous either. Sure. Okay. And this
02:24:31
Andrew Wilsonidea of like uh overwhelming male worship, men tend to reject it. Like men themselves actually tend to reject it. They're not looking for male worship, right? But you though, for some reason,
02:24:44
Andrew Wilsonyou'll bite the craziest bullets for women. And it's like, Oliver, do you honestly believe that if you looked in the camera right now and said, "I would totally prefer to that my woman had been
02:24:55
Andrew Wilsoncertified prefucked by other men so that so that so hang on. But it's true. It's factually rhetoric. You might you might get upset with rhetoric here. You might get upset with rhetoric, but it is factually true.
02:25:07
Andrew WilsonYou would prefer that your woman's certified prefucked because if she's certified prefucked, she has the exact right experiences to no to have a comparison to know that you're the best. That that is you trying to prove
02:25:20
Oliver N Houseyourself to the goddess woman. Dude, no. Actually, no. No, Andrew. I don't I don't care about being the best, Andrew. If this person is choosing me, then they are choosing me. It is very possible that people choose partners who are not
02:25:32
Oliver N Housethe best sexual. Why earlier did you say that you want your woman to think you're the best? I I think that's I'm I'm then Andrew then I misspoke. Okay. Well, how many more [ __ ] times are you going to retract your every position you have? Andrew, I don't want someone to think
02:25:45
Andrew WilsonI'm the best. I do want You don't want your woman to think you're the best at sex. Yeah, why not? If if I'm not, then I don't want her to think that. Yeah, but but here's the thing. I can assure you there's one way where she'll always
02:25:56
Oliver N Housethink you are. She's the only one that that And the problem with that is what? I don't want to be with someone who's not had any experience outside of me. So, you want her to be certified pre-fucked, bro? Okay. Well, if you want
02:26:07
Oliver N Houseto put it that way, I want someone putting it. I want someone who has life experiences outside of me and has developed in such a way and had those experiences so that we can bond over
02:26:18
Oliver N Housethat. In a sense, Andrew, then maybe what I'm saying is I have had sex out of marriage. I have I have done a lot of those things. So, I would want someone who has similar types of experiences.
02:26:29
Andrew WilsonWhy? What does that do for you exactly? Because they're similar to me. Because they're still similar to you. I would, by the way, I would argue that you're not very similar to any woman you've ever dated anyway. No man really is. You know, get do you go get your fingernails
02:26:42
Andrew Wilsondone? Do you get your hair done? Is that the important part? Hang on. Hey, bro. I'm asking about similar interests, right? Are the women you're with actually generally interested in like deep philosophy? Yes. Really? Correct.
02:26:55
Andrew WilsonSo, the last woman you dated had a background philosophy. Background in philosophy. Officially dated. know she was into neuroscience. Yeah, of course. Okay. Was she a neuroscientist though or was she just dorking out about it in college? She was majoring in neuroscience. Okay. She's majoring in
02:27:08
Andrew Wilsonneuroscience. She's going to go to med school. So, not deep in philosophy. And let me let me ask you an intellectual. Yeah. Your shared interests, right? Like what did you actually like doing with her? Having conversations. I'd love with
02:27:20
Andrew Wilsonher. Not just that, Andrew. Why are you trying to reduce? I'm asking about shared interest. Why are you trying to reduce that thing? I said shared interest. What shared interest? We enjoyed the outdoors. You enjoyed hiking in the outdoors. Yes, of course. We enjoyed having conversations. We enjoyed
02:27:33
Oliver N Househaving dinner together. We enjoyed talking about things like I don't I got I get it. Let me ask you this though. Did she get her nails done? I don't think she ever got her nails done. She sometimes did her own nails. Yeah, she
02:27:45
Oliver N Housedid them. Do you do your own nails? I did sometimes during that time. I let her paint my nails. I'll admit it. There's nothing against that. What's wrong with that, Andrew? I know there's something. Yeah. What's wrong with that? I think it is very
02:27:58
Oliver N Houseinsecure if you think that a man getting his nails done is somehow is somehow like a a like a a strike against his masculinity. I think that's pretty insane. I had no problem. Did she paint
02:28:09
Oliver N Housethem different colors? Uh I think it was mostly all blue or I think all Did she put sparkles on them? No, I don't. Did she do your hair too? Did she braid it? Did Did she braid your hair, bro? I'm not Did she put a bow in your hair? I'm not engaging with your bad bad faith.
02:28:22
Andrew WilsonWhy is that bad faith? Because you're making I'm not de masculizing. I am not doing any sort of demasculization if it is the case. In your view, you are. What do you mean? In your view, I'm not though. Yeah, because your intentions
02:28:34
Andrew Wilsonmatter in terms of the words towards me. Wait a second. There's no way for me to deasculate you. You just admitted you got your nails painted. Can I ask you some further non-demasculating things? You can try to do that. Did she braid your hair? No. Did she put a bow in it?
02:28:48
Andrew WilsonI'm not answering any of these more questions. Did she put a bow in your hair? Did she ever put a bow in your [ __ ] hair? I'm not talking. No, I'm not engaging with this. Did you ever wear a dress? I'm not engaging with Have you ever worn a dress? I'm not engaging with this, Andrew. Ever? This is a bad
02:29:01
Oliver N Housefaith converting me question. How can a conversation be bad faith? It would be arguments that are bad faith. Your question is bad faith, Andrew, questions can't be bad faith. What do you mean? Oh my god. Are you loaded? Are you Yeah. Are you saying questions can't be
02:29:13
Andrew Wilsonrhetorically intended to do something and that intention could be bad faith? What's bad faith about this? When you say when you say getting your nails painted is does not hurt anybody's masculinity, right? Then why wouldn't
02:29:26
Andrew Wilsonyou answer questions about other criteria? You are trying to paint me in a light for the audience. Why do you care? You just told them that none of it is deasculating. It isn't. Then why not answer the questions? Okay. What are your [ __ ] questions? Bow and hair.
02:29:39
Oliver N HouseHave you ever worn a dress? I have not worn a dress. No. Okay. Have you ever worn like high heels? No. Okay. Have you ever dressed up like a woman? No. Never. So, the only thing you've ever done is get your nails done? Yes. I once had my hair put up in like a like a thing like
02:29:53
Andrew Wilsona clip. Like I don't know. You can put a clip up like that. No, not a bow. No, it's the same as a bow. They put the like hair clip in. Hair clip in. Yeah, I've done that. It's It's funny. Did they Okay. What about makeup? They put makeup on you. I did theater for a long
02:30:05
Andrew Wilsontime. So, I did do stage makeup a lot. Did you Did women apply makeup to your face to like lipstick and things like this? Not Not lipstick. No. No. Okay. It would be foundation. It would be
02:30:17
SPEAKER_00consious. We'll let the less the rest of the chats come through. We have ri donated $100. Thank you, Oliver. Your position appears to be that being born a
02:30:29
SPEAKER_00male means you are inherently obligated to serve. It sure does. If you are born a female, you are entitled to be served by males. Is this fair? Responsible. I'll respond to this. It is
02:30:41
Oliver N Housenot the case that that is what I'm arguing. I'm saying that those who are stronger have an obligation to protect those who are weaker. I'm acknowledging that there is an overlap in who is stronger and who is weaker. An
02:30:53
Oliver N Houseindividual individual an individual man is not obligated to serve anyone. There should be no idea of service. There should be people partnering in a relationship. No, that's not what you
02:31:04
Oliver N Housesaid. You said that um if it is the case that a man is stronger than a woman, the exact words were ought. No, it's not. You're conflating two things. Whoa, whoa, whoa. How is that
02:31:17
Andrew Wilsonnot service, bro? How is that not service? And all the things I can think of that are serving. Hold on, hold on. That is the one. Who who are they serving then? At that point, they would be serving the interest of whoever it is
02:31:29
Oliver N Housethey're protecting. serving the interest of society because it is in the societal interest that that those individual interest of course you're serving the individual and society. Okay. You're
02:31:40
Andrew Wilsonserving everyone. So, but you're serving the individual and it's going to mostly be men serving the individual, right? Men should protect other men too. So, it's service. Yeah. Men and women are going to primarily benefit from that service and also be hurt by men. Yeah.
02:31:54
Andrew WilsonSo, but they're primarily going to benefit from the service. I don't Men too. I don't I don't No, not men, too. Men actually would primarily not benefit from the service. Right. Okay. Right. Oliver, no. Oh, no. Okay. All right.
02:32:07
Brian AtlasNext chat, guys. If you want to get one in, we just have a few more, then we'll continue on with the the discussion. Uh, streamlabs.com/w whatever if you want to get a message in and just really quickly because we have a few people via Venmo
02:32:19
Brian Atlasthrough cash app. Uh, whatever. Pod Venmo Cash App. Nafia, thank for the 20. Bert, thank for the 10. Thomas, thank for the three. Those blue though. Blue instead of like Why didn't she do pink? Oh, are you talking about the nails?
02:32:31
Andrew WilsonMove on, Andrew. I'm Well, I'm serious. Like, if they did pink, that wouldn't be deasculating, right? No, it wouldn't. Move on into the mic. You just don't like pink. No, move on, Andrew. It's [ __ ] ridiculous. What? What's ridiculous about so focused on the color
02:32:44
Oliver N HouseI painted my I was just curious. I'm making friendly conversation. Uhhuh. I'm being nice. Is that bad faith, Andrew? Answer me honestly. I'm being nice. No. Answer me honestly. Is that bad faith? Of course not. Uh-huh. I'm just curious
02:32:55
Andrew Wilsonwhy you chose blue. Well, blue seems kind of masculineish, like a more masculine color than pink. That's all. Do you want to ask me about my nails, Andrew? You want to Have you ever painted your nails?
02:33:07
Brian AtlasYou know, it's possible. Not Not like in a in a weird way, but like What do you mean weird way, Brian? What do you mean weird way? What are you trying to say? What are you trying to say? I'm asking you Hold on. I'm asking you what you mean by the language you're using. He's
02:33:20
Brian Atlastrying to debate me now. Look, I'm just not moderator. I'm just the host. I'm just asking. I was asking you a question. Look, I might have been uh, you know, when you're, you know, you're in high school, some girl who has a crush on you, she's trying to, you know,
02:33:33
Brian Atlasshe's like, "Let me paint your nails." It might have happened. Okay. So, Oliver, you know, I feel a bit offended by Andrew's inquisition. Now you got the moderator on your side. Does
02:33:45
Brian Atlasthat make you feel better? Definitely do not have the moderator on my side. It's team Oliver right now. Okay, let me let the chats through. We got sick wizard here. Sah wizard donated
02:33:57
SPEAKER_00$100. Why do you assume that the 10 plus people she slept with were any good? Maybe they were all bad. You would need to have her sleep with known guys who have well to give her that knowledge. Most men are bad. Yeah, that's a good
02:34:10
Andrew Wilsonpoint. Wouldn't you want the sample selection size to be with men that you knew [ __ ] really well? Because then that would be the best way for you to know that she had the comparative experience. I would want her to make the decisions of who she has sex with. I don't Yeah, but you could guide her. You
02:34:23
Oliver N Housecould be like, "Listen, this guy over here has a reputation. I want to date you in 10 years." So, just in those 10 years, I want you to [ __ ] this person, this person, this person, this No, I'm not. No. No. You don't have to do that. You can just be like, "Look, I have a
02:34:34
Andrew Wilsonlot of interest in you, right? But I know that there's at least two guys who have a great reputation for [ __ ] really well." No, Andrew. No. Okay. No. I would if I if I had an interest in the woman, I would want to date this woman.
02:34:47
Andrew WilsonYeah. Well, I mean, what if she doesn't have the right comparative, you know? I'm just saying. Yeah. By the way, um I don't know what you're upset about. It's your view, dude. It's your view. Like, that's your view. Why? You just need to
02:34:59
Oliver N Houseown your [ __ ] view, dude. That's not my view. It is your view. Your view is is that you would rather have your chick certified prefucked because otherwise she's might be missing out. Oliver, it's not missing out. I don't want someone
02:35:10
Oliver N Housewho is in a vastly different life experience area than I am. I don't want someone. So, she loves philosophy, but she's a virgin. Oliver. Okay. Terri.
02:35:20
Oliver N HouseThis is Time out. It wouldn't Andrew, you are assuming all else is equal. I am not 100% opposed to dating someone like that. But I'm saying that if that person
02:35:30
Oliver N Househas had sexual experiences like I've had sexual experiences, then we're more on the same level. And that's what I want. What? Well, here's the thing that I
02:35:40
Andrew Wilsonreject. Right. Okay. So I don't think for instance that um if if a man right like let's say he's had 100 women and then settles down with a virgin right wouldn't that actually be comparatively
02:35:53
Andrew Wilsonlike awesome because that would assure that he's better at sex from your view what yeah like if he had sex with a lot of women he's probably better than if he had sex with only one
02:36:03
Andrew Wilsonwoman right sure okay so if that's the case if he pounds a virgin right then you can assure that he's not really she's not really missing out on the experience cuz he's probably really good, right? So really from your view,
02:36:16
Oliver N Housemen should have sex with like a hundred [ __ ] women and then get a virgin because then all the experience is packaged into one. You're assuming one. The point was she knows what she likes, not that he's really good at sex. Don't
02:36:29
Oliver N Houseyou think that she's going to like a man who's really good at sex? Women are all different. Okay. They don't all have the same sexual desires. Yeah, but they're going to definitely want a man who's good at sex. Uhhuh. Sure. I don't I I
02:36:42
Oliver N Housewould not want to date someone who was not in the same life experience as me. And maybe that's because when I think of people, Andrew, who are virgins, I think of people who are much younger than me. Why? Because I don't What? This is like feels like the same argument of people
02:36:56
Andrew Wilsonwho are like, "What's wrong with dating someone much younger than you anyway?" Okay. Honestly, what's wrong with dating? What? Like if you date an 18-year-old, what's the problem? 18. Date an 18-year-old. Yeah. At a different stage of life. So, what do you
02:37:08
Andrew Wilsonmean? Why do you have to be at the same stage of life to date someone? That's stupid. Because I think you would should want to date someone who's on your level. Yeah, but people have Look, people fall in love, have massively dissimilar interests, different IQs,
02:37:20
Oliver N Housedifferent everything, and absolutely love each other. Mhm. What's the [ __ ] problem with that? I don't think there's a problem with it when you get a lot older. But I do think like men of your age dating women who are te like in
02:37:32
Oliver N Housetheir late teens, even if it's legal, is weird. Why is weird? That's quite the argument. Hold on. Hold on. Weird. Are you Are you arguing that there is nothing problematic whatsoever at all with How
02:37:44
Andrew Wilsonold are you? Like 50. Uh well, no. I'm younger than you probably. How old are you? I'm 21. 22. Sorry. Oh, okay. That that accounts for the stupidity. Um no, no. I'm 41. 41. 41. Do
02:37:56
Oliver N Houseyou think nothing wrong with you if you wanted to go by UC Santa Barbara right now? And you know, what would be wrong with me dating an 18-year-old woman who wanted to date me? Why would that be problematic? Why? What's what's strange
02:38:07
Oliver N Houseabout it? Because you are in different life experiences than she is. She is vastly Could do you think 41-year-old women are going to be like, let's say I wanted children. Don't you think I should date younger if I wanted to have a lot of children? 18-year-old to have children. Well, is she going to be able
02:38:21
Andrew Wilsonto give me the most amount of children? Right. Okay. Can you tell me what's wrong with that, Oliver? Yes. What? Cuz you were taking advantage of someone. Oh, taking advantage? Yes. So, let me get this right. Someone who's much. You agree that I have tons more resources
02:38:33
Andrew Wilsonthan the average 18-year-old woman? Correct. Huge amounts more resources. Correct. The power and if it is the case that that woman gets all the beneficiary of all of those resources, right? Plus the added benefit that if she stayed
02:38:45
Andrew Wilsonwith me, let's say for like 25 years, it is true that I could die much earlier than her and she would be set with mass amount of resources and our children would have way more resources than the average 18-year-old couple's children. I think it's weird that it's a 41 year
02:38:58
Andrew Wilsonold. Can you answer my [ __ ] question, Oliver? Answer to my argument. Isn't it the case that if I'm 41, I have more resources she benefits from? Sure. Isn't it the case that if I'm 41, she's 18,
02:39:09
Andrew Wilsonthe chances that our children are going to have more resources than if she had children with another 18-year-old, our children are likely going to have way more resources. Right, Oliver? I think having a differential like that is going to introduce Can you answer the [ __ ]
02:39:21
Andrew Wilsonquestion, Oliver? I don't know. Andrew, you don't know. You don't know if the average 41year-old has children with 18-year-old that that 18-year-old is going to have more resources for for their children than with the average 18-year-old. I think she's going to be traumatized as
02:39:34
Oliver N House[ __ ] is Can you answer the [ __ ] question, Oliver? I don't I'm not interested in like your emotional state. You're also not interested in the emotional state of 18 if you want to date them. That's answer the question. What if their emotional state is they
02:39:45
Andrew Wilsonlove it? No. No. Mm- You should not date. Are you going to answer my question? Would the average 18-year-old
02:39:56
Andrew Wilsonwoman who had children with a man who was 41, would those children have more or less resources? probably on average. Do you think the resources answer the [ __ ] question? Sure. In terms of pure
02:40:07
Oliver N Housemonetary thing, but I that that that tells us nothing, Andrew. Why does this tell us nothing? So this woman can vote. Sure. But she can't choose her partner. Can and should are different things.
02:40:20
Oliver N HouseShould women should 18-year-olds vote? Yes, Andrew. But they shouldn't be able to choose their partners. They they can choose their partners. Just because someone makes a choice and can make a choice doesn't mean that you should make that choice. So for a societ so let me get this right. for a societal
02:40:32
Andrew Wilsonprescription. Do you think that 18-year-old should be able to nullify a 41-year-old's vote? Yes. Okay. Wait a second. That's really weird. Why should an 18-year-old, who you claim is at a
02:40:44
Andrew Wilsondifferent stage of life and doesn't know as much as a 41-year-old and can't compete with that 41-year-old's power dynamics because they're so much more intelligent, be able to nullify his vote? Why should they be able to nullify that person's vote? Oliver, everyone should have a And I'm not going to argue
02:40:57
Oliver N Houseabout you with Answer the [ __ ] question. I will answer it. And I'm telling you, I'm not going any further on this. Yeah, I'm going further on this. Okay, well then I'm not going to I'm not giving you a choice. Oliver, you don't get to run. Oliver, no, I'm not. I don't care what you want, Oliver. It's a debate, Oliver. I'm not going to justify
02:41:10
Oliver N Housewhat women have. I don't give a [ __ ] I want to know, Oliver. Oliver, why should they be able to nullify the vote of a man? Because it's not nullifying. They are both If they vote against me, you nullify my vote. They Okay. And everyone
02:41:21
Oliver N Housenullifies other people's votes all the time. What you are No, they don't. What you are voting Yes. If I vote against you, I nullify your vote. 40 million people vote for Trump with me. Are they nullifying my vote? Oh my god. There are always people who will nullify your
02:41:33
Andrew Wilsonvote. That's not everybody nullifies everyone's vote, Oliver. Okay. I'm sorry that you took that statement. So 40 million if 40 million people vote with me, are they nullifying my vote or enhancing my political power? Yeah. Okay. Sure. Okay. Congrats. You won the
02:41:47
Oliver N Houselanguage game. I'm talking. So now back to this. Everyone is governed under the system of laws and everyone is affected by our system of governance. Thus, everyone should be represented
02:41:58
SPEAKER_00politically in our in our government and have their voice heard. They would still be represented the same way 16-year-old. Wait, what do you mean articulate an actual argument against age gaps? Oh,
02:42:08
SPEAKER_00they're adults but can't pick a partner. Not that it's weird or it gives you the
02:42:18
SPEAKER_00IC. I'll let
02:42:24
SPEAKER_02I'll let the first part.
02:42:31
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'll just let the beginning Octavius donated $69. Articulate an actual argument against age gaps. Soy boy. Not that it's
02:42:42
Oliver N Houseweird or it gives you the ICK. I think I want to hear about the [ __ ] ick. I want to hear an argument. I think I think it's really weird that you want to have sex with 18-year-olds. Why? Because that's really [ __ ] weird. Why would that be? But that doesn't mean anything
02:42:55
Andrew Wilsonpower. I think it's really [ __ ] weird that you endorse homosexuality. That's [ __ ] weird. That's fine. Can you tell me Can you give me an argument for why it's problematic or immoral? Can you do it or not, Oliver? Did it, Andrew? What is it? They are in a very different
02:43:07
Oliver N Housestage of life than you. Why should they be able to vote against me? Because people People People are always in different stages of life and they're voting differently. What do you I don't how people are always in different stages of life and they're dating each
02:43:17
Oliver N Houseother. Would someone be able to spend money differently than you? Well, of my argument is that that's fine. Your argument is that I'm confused. Then you're saying because like an 18-year-old can buy something at a
02:43:29
Andrew Wilsonrestaurant and you can also buy something at a restaurant that therefore both of you are in the same stage of life and can date each other. Well, first of all, I would argue that men and the way that they psychologically have relationships with women is different
02:43:42
Andrew Wilsonthan how women psychologically have relationships with men. That's one. The second is is that if this woman is 18 years old, she's an adult by your metric and my metric, but somehow she's barred from dating a man who would give not
02:43:55
Oliver N Housebarred. Not barred. It's a bad idea. Why is it a bad idea? I just explained it because you are in very different life stages. I've said this multiple times. Do you think you have data to back that up? Power differentials. Yeah. Do you think you have data to back that up?
02:44:07
Oliver N HouseData for what? That that age gap relationships are problematic. Sure. I don't have the data off the top of my head right now. I can give you the most comprehensive I would be shocked. Yeah. Here's the deal. I'll give you the data.
02:44:19
Andrew WilsonThe most comprehensive study ever done on this was done in the UK and they took all marriages which have ever happened inside of the United Kingdom for the last h 100red years and did a comparison by decade by decade by decade. And you
02:44:32
Andrew Wilsonknow what they found out? They found out that there was no more likelihood or less the likelihood of divorce, right? And that the satisfaction rates were higher. Okay. Divorce is interesting because if someone is entirely financially dependent on the other person, which I think it's largely the
02:44:45
Oliver N Housecase, it would be if you are 41 and dating someone who's 18, it might be a little difficult for them to leave that marriage. Financially dependent on your husband. I'm not saying there was anything inherently wrong. I'm saying it's harder for them to you. You're
02:44:58
Oliver N Housepointing to a lack of divorce. No, it's super easy for women to leave. They have they have years to plan for it. Do you think they're getting divorced to 18? I'm not saying they're getting divorced. What are you talking about? I also don't think they should be marrying someone who's 41 at 18. Should they be marrying
02:45:09
Oliver N Housean 18-year-old at 18? They should be marrying anyone at 18. So, you don't think that women should get married at 18? At 18, probably not. I think that's probably too early for most people. 19. 20s, probably. I There's no universal
02:45:21
Oliver N Housefor everything. So, then a 20-year-old with a 41y old. That's okay. There's Andrew, I'm not Just because I can't draw a specific line, we've done this before, doesn't mean that a line doesn't exist somewhere. I just want to know, can I
02:45:34
Oliver N Housejust keep walking you back? Like, how crazy can we get? Could if Let's put the law aside. Let's say you could I mean technically the age of consent in some states is like 16 or 14 not marriageable age which are not marriageable but then do you think it would be wrong for
02:45:45
Andrew Wilsonsomeone to have sex of your age with someone who's 16 or 14 of course wrong yeah and I can give you the demonstraable reasons why okay one I would base it on faith right so I would utilize Christian ethics and say that
02:45:57
Andrew Wilsonwas wrong and here's why if you look at reproduction in women guess when the finally their reproductive tract is the most developed that it's ever going to get for the rest of their life can you imagine What age would you think that
02:46:09
Andrew Wilsonwas? You tell me, Andrew. I'm sure it's super young, which is going toify. Yeah. 18 is when their reproductive um uh when their their reproductive body is at its
02:46:22
Andrew Wilsonzenith, right? Meaning I've heard people say 16. I've heard this argument used for 16 as well. It is it is it is true that they are they but they have way more health complications, but they're better than a 15year-old or a
02:46:33
Andrew Wilson14year-old, I guess. But at 18 and above there's no greater health complications which happen in childbirth than if they're 20 21 22 23. At 17 there is 16 there is 15 there is because of the
02:46:45
Andrew Wilsondevelopmental stages of the woman. That's one that's the utilitarian argument. There could be exceptions. The second is the Christian ethics argument. And then I mean I can keep going. There's actually really good reason to
02:46:57
Andrew Wilsonset the precedent at 18 years old instead of 16 or 15. And I'm glad that you like most leftists bring this up. you try to reduce it down, but there's actually really great reasons from both sides why we want 18 to be the age. And
02:47:09
Andrew Wilsonon top of that, let me just point this out. If they're allowed to vote, they can join the military, right? They can do all of these [ __ ] various things. They can sign contracts, but you say that they can't date somebody who's 40
02:47:20
Andrew Wilsonor 41. Hang on. Hang on. You say you say shouldn't. You say shouldn't. But what are the negative outcomes? What are the negative outcomes then? Negative outcomes of dating someone who's a lot older than you. Then let's compare them to the positive outcomes. Sure. So if we
02:47:32
Oliver N Houselook at from what I now granted I don't have a ton of data right now Andrew so I'm not going to cite direct data it's very easy for someone to get groomed in that type of relationship in which someone is a lot older than them and
02:47:44
Brian Atlasthey and they are swooning over them and they are completely blinded by everything I can't say that no no it's totally fine just just for the sake of the conversation though can you just clarify grooming just just so we understand what you're talking about I'm
02:47:56
Oliver N Househappy to do that it's basically just this idea of when you're like emotionally priming someone or you're or you're or you're going after someone who is who is much less emotionally developed than you are for the sake of
02:48:08
Andrew Wilsonmanipulating them or being being in a sense that they you are much more developed than they are. Got it. And do men would you argue that men have trouble with displays of emotion, empathy and various things like this?
02:48:21
Andrew WilsonSure. And that women have a higher emotional intelligence. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think in certain You don't think women have a higher emotional intelligence? I think largely they do. Yes. Okay. So then women who have the higher emotional
02:48:32
Andrew Wilsonintelligence and men who have repressed emotion if they're dating Hang on. If they're dating Isn't the woman Isn't the woman in the situation of power here? Nice. Andrew, I don't think that 41-year-old women should also date
02:48:44
Andrew Wilson18-year-old men. So, I'm being consistent here. Why not? Okay, I want to move on to something else. I don't care. I want to finish this. No, I'm not. I don't care. I want to finish it. I'm not going to say anything. Stop running, bro. Stop
02:48:55
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] running. Stop running. You're right here having a debate about your views, especially when it comes on feminism. A big feminist talking point is that men are predatory if they're older men and they want to date younger women. That's a massive talking point.
02:49:09
Oliver N HouseThere's no way for you to run from it. Now, justify the [ __ ] view. It's [ __ ] weird, dude. That doesn't mean [ __ ] Why don't you date a 41year-old? You are 41. Why would you not date a 40? What if you want to have a bunch of kids? Then you
02:49:22
Andrew Wilsoncan date someone who's younger, but why would you want to date someone who's fresh out of high school? Well, wait a second. What if the age of high school ended at 15? Oh, okay. By the way, let me ask you this, right? You think that it's weird cuz they're freshly out of
02:49:34
Andrew Wilsonhigh school? Sure. So are the [ __ ] men that 18-year-olds are dating at 18, aren't they? Yeah. And they're in a similar Why would a woman want to date a man who's fresh out of high school? Because she's also out of high school, dude. What the [ __ ] That's like dating
02:49:46
Andrew Wilsonyour brother. No, what? Yeah, it's like dating your brother. It's stupid rhetoric, Andrew. That's not a justification. Who cares? Like why is it if they're fresh out of college that's better? Let's I'm just going to I'm just I I wanted to write down
02:50:00
Oliver N HouseAndrew's vision for the world and my vision of the world. So why don't we just add that to the list that there's nothing wrong with 41-year-olds. Is there you have not made a justification for why there is. Is there ever Yeah, cuz I'm not I'm not You can't You
02:50:11
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] can't. No, you don't get to run. Y you don't get to run. This is a massive feminist talking point. The the age discrepancy between older men, they say that they're predatory. You made the argument they're predatory. Men are
02:50:23
Oliver N Houseinherently predatory. Oh, they if they want to date younger women. Younger and 18year-old is okay. 41 and 20. Yeah, it's still kind of weird. 41 and 24.
02:50:35
Oliver N HouseYeah, that's fine. I Yeah, there's not. There's not a precise line here. You're a [ __ ] liar. Don't know why. We can say that it is okay for someone to date someone who is 40 and if they're 41 and
02:50:48
Oliver N Housenot okay at 18. And that doesn't mean that there's a precise age right there that they oh this age is too much this age is too little. I think it's easy to be like you shouldn't date. So if you observed well shouldn't would but you
02:51:00
Andrew Wilsonwouldn't make laws against it. Laws against it. Yeah. No I wouldn't make laws against it but they shouldn't do it. Yeah. People can not should not do things a lot even if there there. So I would make this case
02:51:12
Andrew Wilsonbut on this that's really weird because we do tailor laws towards predatory sexual behavior in a big way. And I'm sure you're for those laws. Sure. Why wouldn't you be, if you consider this to be a predatory sexual behavior, why
02:51:24
Oliver N Housewould you not want to target laws towards this though? That's [ __ ] weird. Here we go. And the reason is is because I think that once again, you can prioritize different values here. I think autonomy of women is fine. If an
02:51:37
Oliver N House18-year-old genuinely wants to marry someone who's a lot older, I think it's a bad decision. I think she's likely going it's going to lead to a lot of negative emotional outcomes, but I don't think the state should necessarily bar
02:51:48
Andrew Wilsonher from doing it because she's over the age of 18. Okay. Okay. No, that actually doesn't track. Absolutely. So, when you're talking about you you made the bold claim that it's weird and it's the
02:52:00
Andrew Wilsonreason it's weird and bad is because you think that at least most of these relationships must be predatory. Has a high potential for it. Not all of them are. I didn't say all. What does most mean? Yeah. You think most of them are?
02:52:12
Andrew WilsonI think most of them can be. What What other criteria would you have for um most of this thing? Wait, hang on. Which is sexually predatory? Hang on. Sexually predatory shouldn't be outlawed. We have to draw the line somewhere, Andrew. So
02:52:26
Oliver N Houseif if you would like to say that maybe actually I' I've heard that before that maybe you should ra the raise the age of consent to like 21 or there should be like Romeo and Juliet laws so that it does get higher so that a 41year-old
02:52:37
Oliver N Housecouldn't date an 18-year-old. I think I think I think in those cases there is there's a good argument to be made there. Okay. Can we disenfranchise 18-year-old women then? What do you mean disenfranch? How how make sure that between 18 and 21 because I can't have
02:52:48
Andrew Wilsonsex with you. You can't vote. What the [ __ ] dude? Why? Wait a second. Isn't the justification for why they can't vote the same as why they can't have sex? No. Because sex and voting are very different. People make uninformed Why
02:53:00
Andrew Wilsonshouldn't Wait, why why shouldn't adults be able to have sex with 16-year-olds? Isn't it for the same reason the 16-year-old shouldn't vote? No. Oh, what? It's not. Do you think if a 16-year-old votes or doesn't vote,
02:53:11
Andrew Wilsonthey're going to be deeply traumatized? Uh, well, I mean, if enough 16-year-olds do, yeah, yes, they could be. Absolutely. Do you think that parallels the harm of child? Well, first of all, I'm not sure. I'm not sure that like if a 19-year-old has sex with a
02:53:25
Andrew Wilson16-year-old, the 16-year-old is deeply traumatized, honestly. Okay. Do you think so? Do you think that like Yeah, not really. It's weird. I would say that that's like 19 and 16. Yeah, I'd say
02:53:36
Oliver N Housethat's a little gross, but like what about 1917? Yeah. Yeah. You don't really care, right? I Yeah, there there's always going to be a line here and there. So, the thing is is like if that's the case,
02:53:46
Andrew Wilsonif you're like they're 19 years old and 17 years old, right? And that's still predatory behavior from your view. No, I don't think necessarily it is. I But it should stay illegal. No, I didn't say
02:53:58
Andrew Wilsonthat. It should be legal. 19 and 17. There are some Romeo and Juliet laws that I would say I'm in favor of. What's the oneear displacement then from 16 to 17? That's that is stupid. What do you mean? Like if you give the displacement
02:54:10
Andrew Wilsonyou're like at 17 years old to 19 years old that's too much but at 16 it's not. That is [ __ ] Of course these are of course there's going to be an arbitrary distinction. I'm not saying that's
02:54:21
Andrew Wilsonthat's super arbitrary. I think two years in that age gap is as large as you should go. Yeah. So the I mean but the question here still remains right. What about 35 and 18?
02:54:35
Oliver N HouseI think if you're older than like 29, 23 or 24, you shouldn't be dating someone fresh out of high school. Yeah. What is the fresh out of high school thing? Because you're in a different stage of life. You could also be a CEO, right? You're in a different stage of life.
02:54:47
Andrew WilsonYeah. Andrew, are most 18-year-old women CEOs? Yeah. Are most 18-year-old women dating 35-year-old men? No. And they shouldn't be. Yeah. But the thing is is like when it comes to attraction, right, most people are generally attracted and meet people within their same
02:54:59
Andrew Wilsondemographics and groups. That is the case with all dating. Sure. So, if it's the the case that this woman is seeking older men, right? If she's seeking them, what's the problem? I don't think she should be seeking people that old, I
02:55:12
Oliver N Housethink it's going to lead to her. So, I consent. You don't consent. No. Yeah. You don't consent. Hold on. But Andrew, you you don't consent to their relationship. You make the same claim for people under the age of 18. How? You don't consent to someone who is 41
02:55:24
Andrew Wilsondating someone who's 16. But I gave just justifications for that. You have given none for this. You just say it's hyper predatory. Sometimes predatory. Sometimes maybe. I think someone who wants to date someone that young, it's
02:55:35
Oliver N Houseit's it's revealing. Sometimes maybe. Mhm. I think more times than not. I don't I'm not sure. Like you haven't made that case though. That's the case I'm waiting for. You're almost like ar asking me to argue against why it's
02:55:47
Oliver N Housewrong for adults to have sex with like who are fundamentally children at that point. So 18 18-year-olds are fundamentally children. I think to a 41year-old there's almost no difference.
02:55:58
Oliver N HouseVirtual zero zero difference. What makes 17y old 18y old I'm not saying children in the legal sense of the term that's not whatever sense whatever sense I'm
02:56:07
Oliver N Housesaying they are much younger younger and they they makes them [ __ ] children bro obviously had much less life experience than you have okay so that's
02:56:19
Andrew Wilsonwhat makes them children that they have less life experience to the to a 41year-old absolutely that how does that make him a child functionally a child absolutely they're not functionally a Oh my god. Why do they just like not
02:56:31
Oliver N Househave [ __ ] agency cuz they're young? I'm not saying they don't have agency. I'm saying there are better and worse decisions that people can make. What's the What's the bads in this decisions? That's keeps being my question. He won't answer. What are the bads?
02:56:44
Andrew WilsonWhat? You got nothing, dude. You never have anything. When I put you to the question, you [ __ ] run every time. What are the bads versus the goods? Can we go over them? No. No. I'm I'm I'm done talking about talking about [ __ ]
02:56:57
Andrew WilsonYou're such a coward, dude. I'm done. the worst. I'm a coward because I'm I'm refusing to engage. You're refusing to engage with the legitimate social question from your view about feminism. That's what you're doing. Okay. This is
02:57:08
Andrew Wilsona very common talking point from feminists that women are being hyper predatorized by older men. And then when I say, "Okay, well, let's get into whether or not that's happening or not, you [ __ ] run." It's pure cowardice.
02:57:21
Oliver N HouseI'm going to go have a smoke while you look super. If I asked you to justify if if I asked you to like justify something like PDF files, would you would you would would you do it? Bro, am I asking you to justify PDF files? No, but I'm
02:57:33
Andrew Wilsonsaying they're in a similar category. I'm saying here's what I would do. I would make great arguments for why it is that PDF files should be [ __ ] roasted and put up against the wall. That's what I would do. You're making zero [ __ ]
02:57:44
Andrew Wilsonarguments. None. Okay, Andrew. You suck, dude. Okay.
02:57:54
Brian AtlasAll right, we're going to read a couple chats there. Andrew is just going out for a brief smoke break. All right, guys. If you want to get some messages in, we've lowered the TTS, $69 TTS. If
02:58:06
Brian Atlasyou want to get a message in, that's streamlabs.com/ whatever readts. We'll do various breaks to get those through. All right. So, since Andrew is gone, I'm going to try to do the ones that are
02:58:18
Brian Atlasjust kind of asking you questions, Oliver. We have uh let's see uh here we got Shaw here. This is for you Oliver if you want to.
02:58:29
SPEAKER_00Chaw XD donated $69. Thank you. Appreciate Oliver. Stop being squeamish about views that you need to defend or confront. You're doing a massive
02:58:39
Oliver N Housedisservice to your own goona world view. Confront the arguments. Stop running away. Okay. If someone's arguing that 41 year olds or 45 year olds there's nothing
02:58:51
Oliver N Houseproblematic about them going for people who are barely legal like I like I don't I don't know how to convince you that like you just shouldn't like try to get with someone who is in no way on your level. Why don't you try to date someone