Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Oliver | Whatever Debates #18
Date: 2025-05-17
Duration: 5h 55m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Oliver N House(guest)
SPEAKER_04Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:10
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Oliver N House (Oberlin triple-major)
00:45:55
Key MomentOliver admits prefers experienced women; Andrew labels it 'certified pre-f***ed woman worship'
02:17:48
Key MomentAndrew says 'woman, get me a beer' to production staff; Oliver stands up in protest
02:39:48
ControversyAge gap debate: Oliver calls 41yo dating 18yo predatory but cannot give precise cut-off. 40+ min argument.
05:16:00
Key MomentOliver apologizes for reckless language implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies
05:32:42
AgreementOliver concedes Andrew won on rhetoric but reaffirms feminist vision
Topics Discussed
00:00:10
Opening Statements
Andrew lists feminist-caused male burdens. Oliver defines feminism as equal rights, cites dual-income poverty protection.
00:33:36
Promiscuity and Virginity Debate
Andrew: virgins report highest marital satisfaction. Oliver: prefers experienced women. 'Certified pre-f***ed' exchange.
02:39:48
Age Gap Relationships
Oliver: 41-year-olds dating 18-year-olds is predatory but can't specify age cut-off. Andrew refuses to move on for ~40 min.
04:25:54
Misandry and Kill All Men
Oliver: 'kill all men' is imprecise frustration, less harmful than misogyny. Andrew challenges the differential impact claim.
05:16:00
Jim Bob PDF Implication
Andrew confronts Oliver about implying Jim Bob had PDF-adjacent tendencies. Oliver apologizes.
05:26:54
Closing Statements
Andrew claims total victory. Oliver concedes rhetoric loss but reaffirms feminist vision.
Transcript
Page 1 of 7
00:00:10
Brian AtlasWelcome to a debate edition of the Whatever Podcast. We're coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. A few quick announcements before the show begins. This podcast is viewer
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Brian Atlasdescription. We do prioritize messages that are made via Streamlabs to read a message is $99 and up and we're going to read those in batches at various breaks throughout the debate. There's not going to be uh instantaneous TTS, but there
00:00:46
Brian Atlaswill be these breaks. Now, if you want to just tip and have 100% of your contribution go towards us, no platform fees, no cut, you can via Venmo or Cash App. It's whatever pod on both. Link is in the description. We're also live on Twitch right now. Pull up another tab.
00:00:59
Brian AtlasGo to twitch.tv/ whatever. Drop us a follow on the prime subub if you have one. We have merch shop. And we also have Discord. discord.gg/whatever. Without further
00:01:11
Brian Atlasado, I'm going to introduce the two debaters. I'm joined today by Andrew Wilson, host of The Crucible. He's a blood sports debater and political
00:01:21
Brian Atlascommentator. Also joining us today is Oliver N House. He's about to graduate from from Oberlin College. He is triple majoring in political science,
00:01:31
Brian Atlasphilosophy, and legal studies. He plans to attend law school after graduation. He is a political commentator and content creator. The topic today is feminism. You will each have a
00:01:43
Brian Atlasfive-minute opening statement. Then the rest of the show will just be open conversation with prompt uh excuse me, no prompt changes, but there there will be breaks for messages from the
00:01:54
Andrew Wilsonaudience. Uh Andrew, you're going to open first. So, go ahead. Well, first uh thank you again to the whatever podcast audience for having me. Always appreciate that. Um and of course, it's
00:02:06
Andrew Wilsonthrough you guys' donation the show is possible. And to the Crucible crew, I know you guys are watching. I'm wearing black today because it's going to be a funeral. And with that, I'm going to get
00:02:16
Andrew Wilsoninto my opening statement. Uh, my opponent today told Jim Bob, "There's nothing wrong with having sex with a cadaavver." Usually, that would be enough for me to just kind of laugh and walk away cuz no one will
00:02:28
Andrew Wilsonever take you seriously again. But in this case, I feel the rest of his pro- feminist stances need to be eliminated. My opponent also refuses to define what a woman is. So, I don't know how he can
00:02:40
Andrew Wilsonbother advocating for their specific rights or issues if he can't even determine what one is. Interestingly, my opponent believes there are no specific duties for men, at least according to
00:02:51
Andrew Wilsonhis debate with Jim Bob. So, I thought I would take a moment to I'm sorry. Hang on. I'm doing this for my cell phone, so give me a give me a little grace. Uh, interestingly, my opponent believes
00:03:03
Andrew Wilsonthere are no specific duties for men, at least according to his debate with Jim Bob. So, I thought I would take a moment to point out the societal and social expectations and duties which men have. Uh, now you may not believe they should
00:03:15
Andrew Wilsonhave them, but they do have them under the current expectations which feminists have put in place. Um, first, the draft. Second, any say over abortion, which the left demands
00:03:28
Andrew Wilsonthey have no say in. Uh the ability to deny association with women and the occupation for the purposes of safety. The ability to defend yourself physically against a woman. The social demand of sacrifice for chivalry to
00:03:39
Andrew Wilsonstrangers who are women and children. The expectation they can't tell women what a real woman is. But a woman can descriptively attack what a real man is or isn't. Men have a bias against them in
00:03:50
Andrew Wilsondomestic violence issues. Men are expected to approach women for the purposes of dating and uh marriage, but are often called creepy and told they are making a woman uncomfortable by doing so. Men can't discuss issues they
00:04:03
Andrew Wilsonhave with women in a collective way, or they're called misogynist and told they want to hurt women. Expectation to provide financial support during a divorce without the expectation of child custody. Expectation of having courage
00:04:15
Andrew Wilsonin dangerous jobs for the purpose of society where women are not. expectations that male onlyly spaces like the Boy Scouts and clergy and other groups be opened up to women while women
00:04:26
Andrew Wilsonum especially feminists going into uh you know all female spaces are completely celebrated. The inability to bring charges of of SA or battery against women for the same types of things women can claim battery and
00:04:39
Andrew Wilsonassault and be believed and it's insisted that they're believed just to name a few. Men are expected to be uh uh stoic while at the same time more emotionally available and empathetic. Men are sent to schools governed by
00:04:51
Andrew Wilsonfemale teachers which have rules which are tailored to the behavior of the feminine and girls and not the masculine and boys and are oftentimes drugged to keep their masculinity under control. To celebrate uh male increases in powerful
00:05:04
Andrew Wilsonjobs is bigotry and oppression, but in females it's celebrated as glass ceiling breaking. Um also feminist things that uh that that we'll see often in society now which have taken uh heel from the
00:05:16
Andrew Wilsonleft is men need to stop coming in women not women need to stop opening their legs. There's almost no mutual assurance here when it comes to uh promiscuity in women. Most importantly men are always
00:05:28
Andrew Wilsonthe solution to any problem even if they are the problem or aren't the problem. Men need to fix the porn problem because they watch it. Even if women are the ones making it. Men need to get other men in line. Men need to be more XYZ.
00:05:41
Andrew WilsonMen need to stop the sing. Not women need to stop enabling simps by simp fishing. Women always appeal to men's behavior as the problems which need to be fixed. Ducking all accountability thanks largely in part to the leftist
00:05:52
Andrew Wilsonmales who want to [ __ ] them. Next, let's examine some actual blatant stupidity, which will be the first thing I destroy my opponent on. My opponent claims that women fear women's
00:06:05
Andrew Wilsonfear of men is justified. And their bias around a collective experience is what justifies it. Well, the obvious contradiction here, of course, is that I seriously doubt he would say bias against black people or fear would be
00:06:16
Andrew Wilsonjustified based on white people's collective experience. Watching him try to reconcile that is not only going to be amusing for me, uh, but it's where I'm going to begin my line of inquiry. When Jim Bob asked about the bear question based around race, he twisted
00:06:29
Andrew Wilsonhimself into a pretzel to attempt to justify that the collective experience of one group was valid, but the other was not. What's so amazingly hilarious about this is it shows you just how weak the leftist position really is on this
00:06:41
Andrew Wilsonfront. They selectively show that they back up the idea of group bias worse than the right does by acknowledging that group experiences are justified unless those experiences don't fit in
00:06:51
Andrew Wilsonwith their version of political action. they are unjustified. Then this is such a blatant contradiction, it's staggering and also it shows the primary weakness
00:07:03
Andrew Wilsonwith intersectional feminist worldviews like my opponents. What happens if we do intersectionality only to find out minority classes oppress show hatred towards the majority class, thus justifying the hatred of the majority
00:07:15
Andrew Wilsontowards the minority. Well, in my opponent's worldview, this is simply not a possibility. He's willing to entertain. Uh and this is because it destroys the entire narrative of the oppressor oppress dynamic from which all
00:07:27
Andrew Wilsonof his views reduce to a silly harm reductionist principle. Unless of course it comes to the collective power of women. Then one man can easily oppress 20 women and the minority can oppress the majority. But somehow this is
00:07:39
Andrew Wilsonimpossible with racial groups or other dynamics. Uh further let me just finish. I'm almost done and I'll give my opponent a little extra time if needed for his opening.
00:07:52
Andrew WilsonUm, I'm sorry, real quick, just finding my place. He believes people have a duty to pay taxes, but can't tell us why there would be that social duty, but not a
00:08:04
Andrew Wilsonsocial duty of reproduction, which is by far the most beneficial aspect of the health of the society, especially its elderly. He claims women have no duty to have children which means he sees no duty to keep the human race alive which
00:08:15
Andrew Wilsonaligns with his harm reductionist mindset as the ultimate harm reduction in which there would be no human beings thus no harm could ever happen to any of them. He believes democracy is the finest form of government ignoring the
00:08:27
Andrew Wilsonglaring weakness that we can democratically vote for no democracy. He has typical leftworld stupid views. The progressive mind is totally tainted by ignoring objective reality for the ideas
00:08:39
Andrew Wilsonof untenable systems and senseless ideology. On the core of feminism, he's just as bad, refusing to denote that if he were actually a harm reductionist, the best way to reduce harm would be to
00:08:50
Andrew Wilsonstrongly encourage traditional gender roles. Because men who are the most fit sex for the workforce and jobs which aim to protect society would obviously do the most amount of good in those capacities and women in the nurturing
00:09:01
Andrew Wilsoncapacities leading to better general outcomes for society. Now um the truth is that he wants there to be a genderless equitable society
00:09:12
Andrew Wilsonwhich does equal promotion of all lifestyles and worldviews even if it is detrimental to the very society in which we live in which by the way just isn't an anti-harm reductionist principle even
00:09:25
Andrew Wilsonthough he claims he's an anti-harm reductionist. Uh it's also stupid and it ignores the nature of people altogether for the purpose of ideology. He claims he's against the draft, but is for
00:09:37
Andrew Wilsoncompelled taxation, which makes no sense. Both would be duties to protect and run the society one is in. He's basically a walking contradiction. All of his views are contradictory. And with
00:09:48
Brian Atlasthat, I'll yield my time. Uh since Andrew went a little bit over, uh Oliver, you're welcome to have additional time for your open if you'd like. Go ahead. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you, Andrew, for
00:10:00
Oliver N Housethat opening statement. Thank you, Brian, uh for having me back. It's good to be here. So the resolution that we're debating um I guess we've kind of agreed on is whether feminism is good or bad for society. I will be taking the affirmative claim that it is good for society. So you know two things that are
00:10:14
Oliver N Houseimportant when we're having a conversation um about feminism and good is to kind of define both of those terms. So the way that I'm going to be defining feminism is, and this is not an exhaustive definition, and there might be some development on this, is the belief that individuals should have
00:10:27
Oliver N Houseequal rights, freedoms, and opportunities regardless of gender, and that barriers based solely on gender should be dismantled. The way that I'm defining good will be kind of a constellation of goods. So, it's going to be kind of a lot of things that
00:10:39
Oliver N Housefeminism benefits or that feminism leads to. And a lot of these things I'm going to presuppose are good because I think a lot of the audience will be sympathetic to these being good. Um, these include things like stronger families. This includes things like healthier families.
00:10:52
Oliver N HouseThis includes things like reproductive autonomy. This includes things such as greater economic output. Um, I have stuff to back up all of this. The idea of stronger families in shared
00:11:03
Oliver N Houseresponsibilities and shared parenting. Um, healthier families in reproductive autonomy and parental leave and workplace protection. So, something like parental leave is associated with reductions in infant mortality. It
00:11:15
Oliver N Houseimproves maternal health and long-term child well-being. Um, reproductive autonomy is linked to healthier pregnancies, lower rates of maternal depression, better childhood nutrition or better child nutrition and
00:11:27
Oliver N Houseimmunization rates. Um, and Medicaid expansion um is was something that was pioneered by feminists which led to maternal coverage of things such as child birth um and it narrowed disparities in health outcomes and birth
00:11:40
Oliver N Houseoutcomes and improved access to prenatal services. we can move on to some of the economic um benefits. So for example, dualincome households where there are two individuals who are working are significantly more protected against
00:11:51
Oliver N Housepoverty and food insecurity um during economic downturns. Uh feminism advocates education as well um highquality childhood education programs um for example for every $1 invested in
00:12:03
Oliver N Housethese highquality childhood um education programs um we get $16 in return. This was given by no Nobel Prize winning economist um James Hecman. Um, and the benefits to children of working moms,
00:12:14
Oliver N Houseum, from the Harvard Business School, uh, show that do daughters of working mothers earn 23% more than daughters of stay-at-home moms and their sons, um, also spend 7 and 1/2 hours more per week
00:12:27
Oliver N Housecaring for the children that they end up having. So, just in general, I'm going to be affirming that. I'm going to be um, arguing that feminism is a good for society based on these constellation of goods. Um, I'm not necessarily defending
00:12:39
Oliver N Housea worldview here today. I'm merely defending that these things are good and feminism contributes to these things that are good. So these statements are um ultimately conditional statements. So if you care about greater economic
00:12:50
Oliver N Houseoutput, if you care about um a decreasing infant mortality, then um you should care about um feminism and support feminism as a good for society. So that is all I have for the opening
00:13:02
Andrew Wilsonstatement. All right, we open. Yeah, go ahead. Um can we start? Let's back up real quick. Sure. With your I just want to write it down word for word. What's your definition for feminism? I got it for
00:13:14
Oliver N Houseyou. Um so the belief that individual the belief that individuals should have equal rights, freedoms, and opportunities regardless of gender. Hang on. Okay.
00:13:23
SPEAKER_02Belief. Sorry. Individuals should have Yes. Equal rights, freedoms, and opportunities. Would you guys like to define any other terms here at the start or Yeah, hang
00:13:35
SPEAKER_02on. There's a few that I want to do. should have equal rights and what? Um, freedoms and opportunities. Freedoms
00:13:46
Andrew Wilsonand opportunities. Yes. Regardless of gender. Well, that' be regardless Well, I guess sex. Sex and sex, right? Regardless of
00:13:57
Andrew Wilsonsex. Okay. Regardless of sex. And is this uh do you consider this to be a proprietary definition or a historically apt definition? I'm just providing the definition. If you
00:14:10
Oliver N Housedisagree with the definition, then we can go back and forth and determine which definition we feel is best or the audience can um decide which definition they feel is a better definition. Yeah, I understand that we can decide that which definition we want to do. I'm
00:14:22
Andrew Wilsonasking another question though. Okay. Is the it's not a trick question. Is the definition do you consider this to be proprietary? meaning this is what Oliver believes feminism is. Or do you think that this is a historically accurate
00:14:34
Andrew Wilsondefinition? I mean, I think it's a combination of both. So, I think yes, it's the definition that I'm putting forward. And what what historical historical if you're looking at it from a historical standpoint, what would be
00:14:45
Oliver N Housethe kind of like uh idea that you would draw this from for what feminism is? I mean, various feminist thinkers who proposed definitions of this nature. Um, Betty Fredane is one of them who wrote a book called The Feminine Mystique. Okay.
00:14:56
Oliver N HouseUm, we can talk about various other individuals who contributed to that. Sally Haslinger put forward definitions that are very similar to this, but that's kind of what I would say is there. So, it's kind of a combination of
00:15:09
Andrew Wilsonboth. Okay. Gotcha. And then you utilize utilitarianism for good. Uh, that's not that's not the position that I'm
00:15:19
Oliver N Housedefending here. So, no, I'm not defending what good is in this debate. These are conditional statements in that, for example, greater economic output is a good thing. If greater economic output is a good thing, then
00:15:31
Andrew Wilsonfeminism helps achieve that goal. I'm not ultimately defending what essentially good is. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of I'm not looking for a moral debate saying what is good
00:15:43
Andrew Wilsonand bad. I'm just looking for the viewpoint that you So if you're saying if you're saying that these are conditionals for for what is good or what is bad, what would make them conditional for what is good and bad? Just somebody else believed that
00:15:55
Oliver N Houseconditionally they were good. If someone disagrees that for example um greater economic output is a good thing or that stronger and healthier families are a good thing. If they disagree and think that those are not necessarily good
00:16:06
Oliver N Housethings then then so this is conditional on if stronger families and healthier families are good things. Do you believe they're good things? Yes, I do believe they're good things. Okay. So, how do you make those ascertain? How do you ascertain that? Through utilitarianism?
00:16:19
Oliver N HouseNo, not necessarily through utilitarianism. I'm appealing to generally commonly held beliefs that I think most people are sympathetic to and I'm moving just from that shared premises hopefully. So, general beliefs.
00:16:31
Oliver N HouseMhm. So, like shared intuitions. Sure. We can go off that. just I think a majority of people um I mean I don't know we can ask the audience think that stronger families is a good thing,
00:16:43
Oliver N Househealthier families is a good thing. Um reduce reducing childhood poverty and things like that are good things. So that's kind of what I'm basing it off of. So shared intuitions. Sure. Okay. And that's what you're basically when
00:16:56
Andrew Wilsonyou're saying good and bad, you're saying based around just make sure I got it clear based around the shared intuitions of me and most people I think most people would agree that these things are good. Sure. For the purposes
00:17:07
Oliver N Houseof this debate, yes. Okay. Yes. I'm not claiming that whatever the consensus believes is automatically therefore correct. I'm just claiming for this debate, I'm appealing to these shared premises and intuitions that I think
00:17:20
Andrew Wilsonmost people will hold. Most people believe this. Okay. All right. And then I think there was one more
00:17:30
Andrew Wilsonthing. Um when you say conditional Yeah. So you're saying um the conditional belief I just want to make sure I got this right. This is based around the condition that people agree with you
00:17:41
Andrew Wilsonagree that things such as stronger families are good that healthier families are good which are things you believe. Yeah. Which are things so it's people who agree with you. Yes. So then conditional here means people who agree
00:17:53
Oliver N Housewith me. It's the belief is conditional on if you believe that stronger families is a good thing or if you believe that healthier families is a good thing which you believe. Yes. Okay. So that's why it's conditional. If you don't believe
00:18:06
Oliver N Housethose are good things then of course my argument is not going to follow because you haven't accepted the first part of it. So if people want to disagree with that that's fine. I'm not going to go into detail to justify why strong
00:18:16
Andrew Wilsonfamilies or healthy families or um greater economic output is a good thing. Okay. I'm actually fine. So, let's start with um if you want to build your pro- feminist case, let's do it. Sure. So, I
00:18:29
Oliver N Housemean, I kind of did it a little bit here. Um I talked about Let's go, if you don't mind, let's go a point at a time. Okay. Sure. So, um as I talked about um a little bit regarding stronger families um this idea that stronger families um
00:18:41
Oliver N Housein a way includes shared responsibilities and shared parenting. So, when both parents are involved in the child's life, um it leads to as I talked about higher levels of children. Um, for example, the girls end up
00:18:54
Oliver N Houseearning more money when they end up going into the workforce and the men end up spending more time with their children. So, I think that's just kind of one example of a way in which that is a stronger family is that they make they
00:19:05
Andrew Wilsonmake more money. Well, for the for the women, they make more money. Yeah. So, how does feminism promote better outcomes for for their children? For their children directly. Yeah. There's
00:19:15
Andrew Wilsonvarious ways I can go back to if we want to go to um because the family is really important, right? Yeah. Do you consider the family to be mommy, daddy, child? Not necessarily. What do you consider
00:19:26
Oliver N Housethe family to be? I don't think there is one singular definition. For example, I um am a child of divorced parents. So, they've been divorced since I was about 2 years old. Yeah. But if you have divorced parents, are you a family? Well, I would say that I have a family
00:19:39
Oliver N Housewith my mom and I have my dad. But you're not a family. Well, with those people, I'm not They are your family, correct? But you're not operating as a family. I would say that my mom and I were a family and my dad and I were a
00:19:50
Oliver N Housefamily that time period. So, you had two families. Yeah, in a sense. Okay. So, do you think that that was stronger that that was a stronger family unit? Um, I actually do think so because we're only like we're assuming that the two people
00:20:03
Oliver N Houseum splitting up would be better than them staying together. And I do think in my situation it was better that my parents did end up getting divorced. So in in an ideal situation, of course, you know, having two parents in the household is better, is going to be much better, right? Yeah. 100%. I'm not I'm
00:20:16
Oliver N Housenot I'm not disagreeing with that. So how is feminism assisting with that by promoting alternative lifestyles? Wait, but I I didn't I didn't say that the nuclear family with like one mom and one
00:20:27
Oliver N Housedad is necessarily um the best thing. I said two parents being in the household. That's better. Um I think that samesex relationships can be just as um good in terms of flourishing for children
00:20:38
Andrew Wilsoninvolved. Okay. So, let me ask you this. If a three men who are homosexuals wanted to adopt a baby in a throppple, would you be a would you support that? I
00:20:49
Oliver N Househaven't fully fleshed out my views on like in terms of like multiple people marrying. So, I'm not sure. I just haven't looked into the data on it. Well, you just said to me that feminism
00:21:00
Andrew Wilsonstrengthens the family unit and I asked you why is promotion of alternative lifestyles something which promotes family units? And you said yes, that would be an alternative lifestyle, right? When you say it promotes
00:21:13
Oliver N Housealternative lifestyles, that doesn't mean that I accept every alternative lifestyle that may be out there. Which one? Okay. So, I was talking to which ones do you accept? I I would largely accept that samesex relationships of two
00:21:24
Oliver N Houseindividuals of the same sex. Okay. Would be now three. What if they were brothers? What if they were brothers? Yeah. No, I don't. Yeah. I'm not I'm not a fan of incest. Andrew, you're not going to Well, I don't understand. You
00:21:36
Oliver N Housejust said if two same-sex people had a child. Okay. Right. You you would be fine with that, right? No, not if they're related. Just because Wait a second. When you Hold on. When you when you ask me a question like that, there's
00:21:48
Oliver N Houseso many presuppositions surrounding it. For example, can do you think two men but they both abuse their children? Do you think they're good? That's a good What presupposition did I did I add? I you're you added a presupposition or you added something to it that they're
00:22:01
Oliver N Houserelated. Of course, then if they're related, then they shouldn't be in that relationship. the same way that if they're like abusive, they shouldn't be. No, that standard wouldn't even apply. Like if somebody was fourth cousins to somebody or third cousins, he probably
00:22:12
Andrew Wilsonwouldn't care. So it's not just it's not just the relational aspect. In this case, though, there's no harm, which is applied that I can detect. If it's two consenting adult men, right, and they're in a relationship and they're both
00:22:26
Oliver N Housebrothers, why shouldn't they be able to adopt, dude? Well, I mean, if you want to get into a conversation, I I I don't want to get into a conversation around the ethics of incest. I think it's not it's not a conversation around the ethics of incest. It's a conversation
00:22:37
Andrew Wilsonaround the idea of alternative lifestyles being somehow better because you promote alternative lifestyles, right? You don't have justification to stop other alternative lifestyles. So once again, just because I say that
00:22:50
Oliver N Housethere are certain alternative lifestyles that are a possibility, it does not entail that I think every single alternative lifestyle that's fine. So tell me what your objections are to this alternative lifestyle. What? I I'm not
00:23:02
Oliver N Housereally sure. I Wait a second. No, but wait, Andrew, I just haven't I haven't looked into if if there is research behind three people raising a child. I know there's the phrase that it takes a village to raise. Okay, great. So, let's
00:23:13
Andrew Wilsontry this a different way. If a if two brothers adopted a child, they were in an incestuous relationship. They can't reproduce. You agree with that, right? Sure. Yeah. Okay. And let's just say that there was a a trial run where there
00:23:25
Andrew Wilsonwas like, I don't know, five of incestuous brothers that were tracked. Okay. Wow, that's and we were able to and it's a low sample size. There's probably not that many, but let's just assume for a second that the outcomes of the children were good and all the
00:23:38
Oliver N Houseavailable data said the outcomes for the children were fine. Would you support that? I don't think so because I'm I I don't know how I feel about the idea of two brothers. It's not the fact that they're because I think if if they're in
00:23:50
Oliver N Housea relationship like are they I don't know are they are they just raising a child together? Are they and also having sex with each other? I think then you're mixing for example like normal familial relations with a type of romantic and
00:24:03
Oliver N Housesexual relation. I think there is research on this that shows that if there is that type of um relationship that happens in an incestuous relationship it does kind of pervert the meaning of family in that type of way. I see. But not when it's two homosexual
00:24:16
Andrew Wilsonmen. I don't necessarily think so. You'd like because I don't think that two you would just be basing both of these arguments on stigma. What do you mean on stigma? Well, you say that if there's a social dynamic which is not there, but you can't point to the any direct harm
00:24:29
Oliver N Houseto the child. You would just be pointing social I'm not necessarily going on a harm principle here. What are you going on? What am I going on? I mean, I'm going on the best interest of the child. But that's not just harm. Okay. The best
00:24:39
Andrew Wilsoninterest of the child. What other than stigma here is actually problematic here? What's other than stigma? It's not just stigma though because if you're mixing like sex with a family Yeah. it
00:24:51
Oliver N Housewill cause other problems. mean like every person on planet Earth does who has a family. What are you talking about? I'm not I'm not talking about spouses and I'm not talking about that. Of course, there
00:25:00
Oliver N Houseexist between individuals such as brothers or such as a a father and their a son or daughter that that will lead to a perversion of the family dynamic
00:25:11
Andrew Wilsonbecause it's not the same. But two homosexuals won't. No, I don't think so. Why? Why? Why? The only association that I can get here is stigma. The only thing I can think of here is stigma. It's not stigma. I think it would lead to worse
00:25:24
Oliver N Houseoutcomes for the children. Now you're based on what? Hold on. You're stipulating based on what? Based on the already available data that already available data of children who are products of incestuous relationships or
00:25:36
Oliver N Houseexperience incest. It's not they're not experiencing incest. They're raised by if the the mom and dad are both parents. But if it's the case that the outcomes for the children are on par with the
00:25:47
Oliver N Houseoutcomes of other homosexuals, what would your actual objection here be? The problem with this type of argumentation is you're stipulating out the exact thing that you can do the same thing. Give me the stipulations and I'll give
00:25:58
Andrew Wilsonyou my objections. But the thing is is like here we go. I just want to know other than stigma, what would actually be the objection to this family unit? What I'm saying that it probably
00:26:09
Oliver N Housewouldn't lead to better outcomes. You're based on what you're stipulating. What are you basing that on? There's no already available data. There's no already available data of of men and women who are married are married and are related. Yeah. And when they have
00:26:23
Andrew Wilsonchildren, when they have biological children, not for adoption. Okay. Can these people reproduce? Didn't we establish they saying they can reproduce? So then what what So why is it your intuition? Remember this is what
00:26:34
Andrew WilsonI wanted to get to. You said that the purposes of what is good is going to be shared intuition. Mhm. Great. So if that's the case, you would say that it's good. Two brothers don't get married and
00:26:45
Oliver N Houseadopt children. Don't get married and adopt children. Yeah. Two brothers. Two two brothers. They don't get married. They're not sexual partners. Probably good. They're not rel they're not romantic partners. Yeah. No. No. No. No.
00:26:57
Andrew WilsonNo. You would you would say that two brothers should not get married. Two brothers should not get married and adopt children, right? Yes. Cuz they're brothers. Based on shared in intuition. Yeah. Cuz they're brothers. Yeah. Cuz they're brothers.
00:27:10
Andrew WilsonSo if there's a shared intuition against homosexuals, you would have to bite the bullet then that you don't think homosexuals should adopt. That's not necessarily what I'm saying. Okay. Can
00:27:20
Oliver N Houseyou make this logically follow people who have what is good is people shared intuition and not necessarily and I'm arguing from conditional premise. If you reject
00:27:32
Oliver N Housethings that I mentioned, let's make sure we got this right. Conditional means shared intuition. your exact words. Sure. For the purpose of this conversation, Andrew, of these things, that doesn't mean that you throw out
00:27:43
Oliver N Houseanother thing that I didn't mention and then claim. Yeah. I'm sorry. Did you say does conditional in this conversation mean shared intuition or not? Shared intuition of the things that I mentioned, of course, because that's what I'm arguing. You can't just throw
00:27:56
Andrew Wilsonout another thing and be like, "Oh, here you agree with this. You agree with this." Right? It's only conditional on five things. It's conditional on these things. Yes. That's what I'm arguing. tell you I just want to make sure you can't make the argument. Hey, I just
00:28:08
Andrew Wilsonwant to make sure I got this right. So, um, when it comes to this, Mhm. we're not talking about shared intuition anymore. We're only talking about shared intuition when it comes to your few arguments against feminism because you
00:28:19
Andrew Wilsondon't want to take an actual position. I am taking an actual No, no, no. You don't. You say these are conditional positions because I don't want my worldview to be investigated on these positions. The reason I don't want it is because no listen to me because this is what you do is you go down a
00:28:32
Oliver N Housemetaeththics rabbit hole where you try to reduce a view to absurdity and then a conversation hold because a conversation that was meant to be about feminism then then is dragged out into a
00:28:43
Oliver N Housethreehour debate about the fundamental precepts of reality and I think that gets so away from the conversation. Didn't you say that alternative families are good? Certain alternative families doesn't mean it doesn't mean certain
00:28:55
Andrew Wilsonalternative families are good, right? It depends what you mean by alternative families. Yeah. But you said certain ones are good. Sure. Okay. Fine. So in this case you said homosexual families are good, right? Why are they good because it leads to it leads to the
00:29:08
Andrew Wilsonstudies that I've seen it leads to comparable comparable outcomes to um nuclear families heterosexual. And just to be consistent here, if it was the case that you had studies that said that
00:29:20
Andrew Wilsonthe results of an incestuous relationship between a man and a man, they have a kid that they adopted and the outcomes were some on par with that of other homosexual men, you would be for them adopting, right? Yeah. Uh-huh. If that is good, then it's good. Sure.
00:29:34
Oliver N HouseYeah. Well, I'm just want to make sure that I got this right. Hold on. You are stipulating things that just aren't the case. It doesn't line up with any of the other available data of three men who are brothers or two men who are brothers
00:29:46
Andrew Wilsonhaving What does that have to do with anything? Because it doesn't lead to better outcomes. You're stipulating. Wait, wait, there's no data on this. Well, I'm talking about the data that happens. Yeah, I know. But great. So, there's no data on this though and I'm
00:29:58
Oliver N Housejust asking if if there was if there was data on this, you would have no objection to it, right? Sure. But that's just because that's not how it works because you would have to prove that there's a relevant difference as to why
00:30:10
Oliver N Housea mother and father who are who are related. Um raising let's not even let's say adopting just to keep it the same. Adopting children and raising that um that that that's bad. There's been data on that. You would have to say that there's some relevant difference between
00:30:24
Andrew Wilsontwo men that therefore would make it good and not in this case. And I don't see what how that would make any sense. whatever the same case would be for your objections for the incestuousness, right? Uh being some
00:30:36
Andrew Wilsontype of problematic caricature even though we had a data set that said it was the outcomes for the child seemingly were okay. Do you think that you would still object to the incestuous part of
00:30:47
Oliver N Housethis in in the in the two dad's cases but not the heterosexual case? Then I think then you're just stipulating that that's going to be the case here and not here. And I don't think that makes sense. Perfect. So then my first
00:30:57
Andrew Wilsonargument is just conditional. I'm just saying that conditionally for the sake of just this one argument that if the intuition of
00:31:07
Andrew Wilsonthe audience is that men who have sex with each other, right, and are in incestuous relationships shouldn't adopt because uh they have intuitions against it. And since that's hang on, hang on.
00:31:19
Andrew WilsonThat's not my hang on. That's not my worldview, bro. That's not my world. It's not my worldview. But it's conditional to this one argument. I'm just appealing conditionally this one argument that alternative families are
00:31:32
Andrew Wilsonbad. Right? And the reason they're bad is because there shared intuitions against men doing these things. That is fine. And I'm not getting into a debate about alternative families. Wait, but
00:31:44
Andrew WilsonI'm sorry you did though because you said that alternative feminism pushes alternative families and it and alternative families are good. It allows for alternative pushing and allowing for different. Right. So I'm just saying that conditionally my argument back is
00:31:57
Andrew Wilsonthat as long as we have a shared intuition men against alternative family structures that's good for this debate. Yes. For this debate that's good. Absolutely. Because I'm not arguing in this debate right now
00:32:07
Andrew Wilsonwhy then I think that we have uh taken care of this one on alternative families just conditionally. If you intuitively don't like that [ __ ] it's good. We both agree. Moving to the next point. Okay.
00:32:20
Andrew WilsonSure. Yeah. Ready? Fine. Yeah. So I Well, all of these are conditional statements on if you agree that well then I will just give a counter conditional that well if you just have an intuition that this guy's a [ __ ]
00:32:31
Oliver N Houseidiot then he loses the debate. It's a conditional. I don't believe that. But it's conditional. That's fine. Wait, but I'm arguing that these things are good. So for example, would you agree that
00:32:43
Andrew Wilsonhealthier families is a good thing? Yeah. Well, we haven't established what I think a family is yet. Okay. Do you think do you think healthier families in your view is a good thing? Yeah, in my view a healthier But hang on, we're
00:32:55
Andrew Wilsonequivocating though because I don't want to talk past each other and equivocate where you say family, I say family, and we pretend that we're saying the same thing. To me, a family can be a crossgenerational or nuclear family unit. I think the crossgenerational
00:33:07
Andrew Wilsonunit's even better than the nuclear family unit. I think that if it's the case that you take away the female or male component from the family, it necessarily weakens it necessarily weakens it based on well
00:33:21
Andrew Wilsonhere's why evidence well not only available evidence but we can see what the outcomes are when uh children have the mom and the father inside of the home and we also see what happens with single motherhood the rates of abuse
00:33:33
Andrew Wilsonvarious things like this when the father is not in the home and this is usually initiated by women women are the ones who are the um overwhelming initiators
00:33:44
Oliver N Houseof the destruction of that family unit. Sure. From from the data set that I've seen and what I what I've looked at regarding the health and well-being of children, it is true that children do better in a house where there's a mom
00:33:56
Andrew Wilsonand a dad than just a mom or just a dad. But that's because there's two parents in the house. Not necessarily. Then explain lesbians. What? Then explain the lesbian conditions. the rates of domestic abuse with lesbians and the outcome for lesbian children is not the
00:34:08
Andrew Wilsonsame as that of gay men, they do not have the same outcomes. So all that would prove then is that two men can raise a child but then maybe two women. So then you think then but so then I just want to make sure then two lesbians
00:34:21
Oliver N Houseraising a child we should be because that's not so healthy then if No, hold on. If the data shows that it would lead to worse outcomes for the child. No, no, no, no. Because if you're making an
00:34:32
Oliver N Houseargument about domestic violence rates, which I haven't looked that much no, it's also abuse rates towards children. I once again conditionally on that statement being true, then yeah, would probably not be best for the children. Okay.
00:34:45
Andrew WilsonSo, so those alternative lifestyles, so if two gay men, right, they have a child and I was able to prove like I don't know that um the children of gay men inside of the narrow study set, right,
00:34:57
Andrew Wilsonthat you've probably looked at, I don't know if you have the studies handy, but I'm sure that I can reference them really quick, that the outcomes are just a little bit worse for children if
00:35:08
Andrew Wilsonthey're raised by uh homosexuals rather than adopted by heterosexuals. And we know that every single child in the United States gets adopted. Every single one. All of them. 100%. Then that would make a good case for why
00:35:20
Oliver N Househomosexual men probably shouldn't be allowed to adopt, right? I don't No, I don't think that's the case. Here's the reason. Because I bet there are certain heterosexual relationships among certain people that are better than others. So you talked about Wait a second. But
00:35:32
Oliver N Houseyou're saying if it's Hold on. Hold on. No, no, but you're saying fine. Would you would you say an an intergenerational family? You talk about that. You said that's better than the regular nuclear family, right? generally. So would you say that because
00:35:43
Andrew Wilsonan intergenerational family is better that therefore regular nuclear families are well because both of those family units, right, are still superior to any of these alternative family unit. Hold
00:35:55
Oliver N Houseon. But you made the claim that if gay men who were raising a child, it's slightly I'm not a utilitarian. You are. No, no, no. You're saying if you're a harm reductionist, not me. I never made a claim of harm reduction. You're
00:36:07
Oliver N Houseascribing this to me. Oh, come are you a harm reductionist? I'm not making that argument anymore. Are you a harm reductionist? You're trying to pin me down. Just answer the [ __ ] question. Are you I would say largely I ascribe to
00:36:17
Oliver N Housethreshold deontology. So not just utilitarianism. Thresh deontology. Where's the threshold before we switch to utilitarianism? I don't think that there are black and white answers to a lot of these questions. And that's because I don't want to ascribe a
00:36:30
Andrew Wilsonworldview. Andrew. Okay. I just want to make sure I got this right. You're a threshold deontologist. So at I just make sure I got this right. Threshold deontology is you believe in universal a
00:36:42
Oliver N Houseuniversal form of ethics up to some threshold and then you switch over to utilitarianism. I think there's a balancing act between the two. I don't think that there is threshold. I don't think there is one threshold for every
00:36:53
Oliver N Housesingle situation. No, no, wait a second, Andrew. Just because we can't draw a specific line in the sand where two things differ doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a difference. It's the same thing as a soiety's paradox and it's the
00:37:05
Andrew Wilsonsame thing with the fallacy of like the heap and the pile. Yeah. Okay. So, so the thing is like that's fair if you want to say that there's a threshold fallacy in there where you can't describe from when one thing changes to
00:37:17
Andrew Wilsonanother thing, right? I just want you to remember later in the debate that you said that when I make that same fallacy back when we get to a different topic, but just remember that you said that. Fine. Okay, great. So, we have that.
00:37:28
Andrew WilsonYes. Now, uh back to feminism and why it's so great for society. Let's start with how does it reinforce um heterosexual normative behaviors in society? How does it do that? What do you mean heterosexual normative
00:37:40
Oliver N Housebehavior? Like like that that they ought to act in a specific way. I don't think it does and I don't think that's a bad thing. Yeah. Okay. So why is that a good thing? Because I think it's better if individuals have uh a more expansive
00:37:52
Oliver N Houseversion of masculinity or femininity that they can adopt into. So I don't think the man wait a second. I don't think the man always has to be the provider and I don't think that the woman always has to be the stay at home. Those aren't masculine or feminine traits. Well, that's largely things we
00:38:05
Oliver N Houseascribe to masculinity. Oh, is it? What is masculinity first? Well, it's hard to say exactly what it is. I mean, what do you consider it to be? I think it's it is considered a lot of traits such as, you know, I don't know, courage, confidence, assertiveness. I don't think
00:38:18
Andrew Wilsonthey're real. I don't think they're actually real categories. Do you think that if a man is sick and he's in the hospital, right, because he has cancer, that other men consider him to be less of a man because his wife's providing?
00:38:29
Andrew WilsonNo. Wait a second. But it's not but it's not it's not based exactly. Wouldn't she be considered more feminine in fact by the fact that she's taking care of him while he's so sick that that he she's doing her wely duty? I don't think necessarily. I but I don't think you can
00:38:42
Oliver N Housealso ascribe masculinity and femininity to these rigid like categorizations of things. Yeah. So what is it? What is it then? What's masculinity? What is it? I I don't think there is a comprehensive thing. I actually agree. I don't think
00:38:53
Oliver N Housethat masculinity and femininity are good categories to go off of because it reinforces already gendered norms there. So I don't like I'm not really positioned. Well, let me give you let me give you a counter then. Okay. The
00:39:06
Andrew Wilsonreason that we utilize masculinity and the reason that we utilize femininity is because we're ascribing virtues to men and women and they're shared virtues. So you would agree with me that courage is a shared virtue between men and women.
00:39:18
Andrew WilsonYes. But hang on. Okay. You would agree with me that temperance shared virtue. You would agree with me that you know generosity perhaps shared virtue. Things like this, right? And they aren't exercised differently. What's that? And
00:39:31
Andrew WilsonI don't think they're exercised differently. Ah, I'm not saying I'm not even saying that. Okay. So, so let's start with shared. So, you agree that they're shared, right? Yeah. But here's the problem, and here's where we get
00:39:40
Andrew Wilsonmasculinity from. If it is the case that one sex does or does not apply one of these virtues, the social cohesiveness and the destruction to society
00:39:51
Andrew Wilsondrastically increases in comparison to the other sex. Meaning, let's take courage for instance. Okay? Okay. Now, if all if if females, right, lost
00:40:02
Andrew Wilsoncourage when it came to like I don't know um dealing with intruders and things like this, right? If courage was not kind of on the menu there for social protection, right? Society would would
00:40:14
Andrew Wilsonget objectively worse. You would agree, right? I think so. But if men lost courage, there wouldn't be [ __ ] society at all. And so that's why it's ascribed as a masculine virtue because
00:40:26
Andrew Wilsonif men don't apply this virtue, society fails. Or if women don't apply this virtue, we social cohesion and society begins its collapse. Okay, fine. But I don't see how that necessarily boxes
00:40:39
Oliver N Housethings into masculinity or femininity. I think if women started not Hold on. I think Can I explain? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so I don't think that if women just suddenly stopped expressing courage, it depends. We'd have to define
00:40:51
Oliver N Housewhat courage means. Like what if women by courage, you know, courageous, maybe a woman doesn't want to get out of her child. Okay, fine. If she doesn't want to take care of her children, if every single woman decided they weren't going to take care of their children and let's
00:41:03
Oliver N Housesay, I don't know, breastfeed their children, do the normal things that you would ascribe that women either ought to do in their role. I think that would lead to the downfall of society. Well, let me give you an easier one. Temperance. Just take temperance for
00:41:15
Andrew Wilsoninstance. Temperance is necessary for both sexes in order to even have virtues to begin with. Sure. But if women become hysterical versus when men become hysterical, the side effects of this are much much worse when men become
00:41:27
Oliver N Househysterical versus women. Yeah. Why? Why though? Because they're way [ __ ] stronger. I also think they exercise their hysteria in a more violent way. Because they're way [ __ ] stronger. I don't think just because someone's
00:41:40
Andrew Wilsonstronger necess when women are hysterical, they become very violent just like men do. The distinction is they can't do as much damage. Okay. And so if that's the case, then when we look
00:41:50
Andrew Wilsonat this virtue, for instance, if men lose control of that virtue, it's way [ __ ] worse than if women do, right? That's why it's masculine versus feminine. Virtues are associated with
00:42:03
Oliver N Housethe masculine and the feminine. Okay. So I'm then I'm just curious on the view. What would be a virtue that I guess if women lost that virtue, it would be worse for society than men? And we can
00:42:15
Andrew WilsonYeah, I mean, we can dive right into it. So chastity would be an easy one. Okay. So men for instance, they can impregnate basically like as many as many women as they can make a deal for, right? As many
00:42:27
Andrew Wilsonas if there was a hundred women who are lined up here today and you could have sex 100 times. You could impregnate 100 women. Sure. We're assuming they're consenting to the sex. Yeah, you could actually do that, right? But you agree that women can't. They can only get
00:42:40
Andrew Wilsonpregnant by one man at a time. Yeah, sure. There is a difference. So then if that's the case, then when we're talking about the social cohesion, right, women are basically going to be the gatekeepers of whose DNA passes on and
00:42:51
Andrew Wilsonwhose DNA doesn't pass on. You agree with that? How are they the gatekeepers, though? Well, because you you can have as many children as you want. Sure. They can't. Yes. Yes, they can't. So, they
00:43:03
Andrew Wilsonget to basically be the selection for reproduction, not you. Okay. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? They get to be the Yeah. They get to be kind of the gatekeepers for who gets to reproduce
00:43:15
Andrew Wilsonand who doesn't get to reproduce. Whereas you, right, you could just reproduce with like everything that you saw as many partners as you could arrange for who would agree. You could actually impregnate all of them, right? Sure. But would then you would probably
00:43:28
Andrew Wilsonalso agree they shouldn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. So if women aren't chased, right? If they're not chased and they have sex with like 50 men, right? At least this used to be the case especially, then paternity comes into question. other
00:43:40
Andrew Wilsonthings come into question, right? Not really the case with men. If you had sex with a hundred women, Yeah. right, and no other men had sex with him, right? Or
00:43:49
Andrew Wilson100 men had sex with this woman and what are you doing, dude? Bring me water. [ __ ] This guy's like [ __ ] shifting behind me. I'm like, what the [ __ ] is he doing? Bring me water. [ __ ] All right.
00:44:01
Oliver N HouseSo, where were we at? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it conditional. We're talking about the gatekeeping of uh female pregnancy. Okay. I just don't see how it's different in terms of like men would have questionable about who
00:44:14
Oliver N Housepaternity if they have sex about 100 women. Are you assuming that only one man is having sex with these hundred women or all of men are having sex with a hundred women? Yeah.
00:44:25
Andrew WilsonYeah. So if it is the case that a woman has sex with uh with 20 different men, right? Uh it is the case that uh paternity is going to be in question, right? Sure. That is that is indeed the
00:44:38
Andrew Wilsoncase. Fraternity is going to be in question. Yeah, paternity is gonna be in question. Yeah. So, if we go back, the reason I'm tying this in with virtues, the reason I'm kind of moving from the back end to the front end is to explain this concept to you. I wish I had mass
00:44:50
Andrew Wilsonskills so I could draw this out. Let us assume for a moment that you wanted to be assured that your child was yours and you didn't have paternity tests. Okay.
00:45:00
Oliver N HouseHow could you do that? In the like in the old like I guess a long time ago. Well, it's not that long ago. Paternity tests are modern. Fine. Um, and you want to be sure of it. Yeah.
00:45:11
Oliver N HouseI guess then only you would be having sex with your wife or something like that. Or you would you would you would want to have sex with a woman who wasn't actively having sex with other men at the same time. And I think that's perfect. I think that's a perfectly normal boundary. Hang on. What is the
00:45:24
Oliver N Houselast thing you just said? You would want to make sure what that you that you and you know your wife were the only people having sex with each other, right? I think there's nothing wrong with what would be a good What would be a good tell for that? What do you mean? That she wasn't having
00:45:37
Oliver N Housesex with a lot of men before you, right? Wait, no, I don't necessarily think that's You don't think so? No, I don't think so. I think people can um engage in a lot of sexual activity because they're enjoying that and they enter a monogous relationship and decide that
00:45:49
Oliver N Housethat's what's best for them and and and that's what they want. I don't think that just because she chooses to have a lot of sex outside of a relationship means that she should automatically be distrusted within a monogous relationship. So, let's just make sure we got this right. Is it same for men,
00:46:03
Andrew Wilsonthough? We're going to set this. No, it's not. But I'll get into that next. If a man if a man sex a bunch of people if a man has sex with a bunch of people and he gets into a relationship I'm going to explain it. But let's move into this cuz we're talking about the social destruction
00:46:15
Andrew Wilsonaspect. So let's start with this. You think that it is the case that if a if a woman has a promiscuous past, right, that that should essentially not in any
00:46:27
Andrew Wilsonway show men should show no distrust towards that woman for the purposes of having a family. with her. Hold on. Was she in relationships with people and was she lying to them and was she cheating on them? Was she just having a lot of
00:46:39
Oliver N Housepromiscuous sex with many many men? Then that's fine. I guess we're assuming also like no STDs, no stuff like that. Just bake it in. Okay, fine then. Yeah. No, I don't think there shouldn't be any trust distinction at all. No, I mean you have conversations with this person be like,
00:46:51
Oliver N House"Yeah, no, I had that past. I even I enjoyed that part of my life, but I want to settle down." Would you say that those those women would probably be on par with trust of like virgin women when it came to that? Uh-huh. Right. It follows, right? Sure. Except it doesn't
00:47:05
Andrew Wilsonbecause you didn't think about it and here's why. Okay. There's uh if if I were to ask you about comparisons, right? Comparatively, if a woman only has sex with one partner, can she
00:47:16
Andrew Wilsoncompare any other partners to that man she's had sex with? No, I guess not. So, she wouldn't be knowing what she was missing out on or not missing out on. Right. Sure. Yeah. So then if that's the
00:47:26
Andrew Wilsoncase, if a virgin got married, right, she would have no other men to make comparisons against for any potentiality she might be missing out on. Correct? Hold on. Yes. But then you're claiming
00:47:38
Oliver N Housethat you should marry virgin women because there might not be another guy or there might they're not going to have a reference for another guy who's better at having sex than you are or better at whatever the traits are. So the long the
00:47:49
Andrew Wilsonmore that human beings experience partners How's that weird? It just blows your It blows your position up. No, no, it doesn't blow my position. You said there's no distinct thing that we could ever point to, right? And this is
00:48:01
Andrew Wilsonbecause when I asked you, hey, do you think that it's the case that if you have a virgin woman, right, versus a very promiscuous woman, they're equally as trustworthy? You said yes. However, you instantly blow your own position out
00:48:14
Andrew Wilsonthe second you say that there is a comparative analysis which people are going to be making. That would erode the trust immediately. Wait a second. So, can I just so I can understand your position, I want to just restate what you're saying back to you. Are you
00:48:25
Oliver N Housesaying that because a woman who had more sex before marriage has more experience with what men she likes and what men she doesn't like that therefore within the marriage if she's unhappy with the state of the current marriage she has things
00:48:38
Andrew Wilsonto compare it to and thus she might be more likely to leave. Well, not just that, right? But it could be that if she had never experienced and in fact this is this is likely because women pled say
00:48:50
Andrew Wilsonthis. If she had never experienced these other men and had no comparison, she would actually be much happier in the current relationship that she was in. Well, that's okay. So, ignorance is blessed is what you're saying. It's not ignorance. Well, it is. She doesn't know about the other men. Compared. Well,
00:49:03
Andrew Wilsonthen by your standards, should she just [ __ ] a bunch of men so that she knows? No. No. Not necessarily. Wait, wait, wait. I'm So, which thing is more preferable for society then? Wait, wait. But you're making a false dichotomy. You're making a false dichotomy. You
00:49:15
Oliver N Houseare. You're saying that there is on one side that women do not have sex or before marriage whatsoever at all and the other one is women just [ __ ] people all the time no matter what. No, no, just promiscuity. I'm just asking it
00:49:27
Andrew Wilsonwould it would logically follow that if women had [ __ ] two men she now has a comparison. Yeah. Okay. So then we would just say that every single time there's an additional Well, okay. Then if you think Wait, you think it's a good thing? Then you have to be better. Then wait a
00:49:40
Andrew Wilsonsecond. Then if you think better than No, no, no. Let's back up. Then you think it's a good thing. You just said, "I think that's a good thing." So that means if that's a good thing, why shouldn't they [ __ ] a lot of men so that they always they have the largest comparison sample size possible? I think
00:49:53
Andrew Wilsonit depends on the individual woman and what she wants. Some people don't want to have that much sex. Some people just don't. That doesn't answer my question. If you think it's good that she had sex with one more person, right? Because now she has a comparative sample size. Why
00:50:06
Oliver N Houseshouldn't she have sex with hundreds of different people to make sure she has the best comparative sample size? Absurdity. Oh, bro. Sorry. I'm sorry that it's upsetting to you, but it's not it's not upsetting. Hold on. Do you
00:50:17
Oliver N Housethink that eating broccoli is good? Mhm. Do you think that we should just eat as much broccoli as [ __ ] possible all the time? Do I? Do you think we just eat an insane amount? So there can be a good thing and that thing can be good up to a
00:50:31
Andrew Wilsonthreshold. Yeah. The thing is though is that if I were to say, right, eating lots of broccoli is good. So I have a comparison against other I don't know other vegetables or something like this,
00:50:42
Andrew Wilsonright? And you you rightly asked me then, well, shouldn't we eat like a ton of broccoli then so we have the highest comparison? We can also make that and say, well, but we cut it off at this before it gets to the point of like
00:50:55
Andrew Wilsonyou're going to throw up or something like this, right? That's fair, but that would still equal a lot more men, right? Sure. Yeah. So then then you think obviously that women probably ought to [ __ ] a lot of men. Not ought. No, no, no. I because I I also think then would
00:51:08
Oliver N Housethey be missing out, bro? No. I don't think they're missing out. They really know what their preferences are though because there's hold on there there because there are different women who want different things. You're ascribing a monolith. Some women might want to be
00:51:19
Oliver N Housevirgins until marriage because they value sex in a significant other. No, unless they're having sex with multiple men. You don't necessarily have to have sex with multiple men. If you don't want that comparison, you don't have to. Just
00:51:31
Oliver N Housebecause a comparison might be helpful in certain instances doesn't mean that the negatives for that individual person might not out might outweigh the positive benefits that they're having. Perfect. So then is it the case then
00:51:43
Andrew Wilsonright that if we're just looking at the costbenefit analysis of comparison for outcome if we are to have the best outcomes with women who've only had one sexual partner because there's no comparative analys best outcomes. Can
00:51:55
Andrew Wilsonyou just Yeah. This means they stay in their marriages longer and report happiness levels that are higher which all virgins do almost universally. Okay. When I say overwhelming majority
00:52:06
Andrew Wilsonoverwhelming majority do okay uh same thing and this the reason I say universal is because it doesn't matter the nation. It doesn't matter the nation at least in the western nation doesn't matter the nation uh when it comes to dissatisfaction. Now, you can look at
00:52:19
Andrew Wilsonsome nations perhaps in the Middle East where they measure dissatisfaction, but you can't tell if it's because they're virgins or because they live in the Middle East, right? Like, you can't tell. But in Western nations, you can tell. And here's how we know. We can do
00:52:31
Andrew Wilsonan analysis from the religious, right? The more religious they are, the less promiscuous they often are. And the more often they get married virgins, right? And here's what ends up happening. The non-religious, the secular women who get
00:52:42
Andrew Wilsonmarried virgins and the religious women who get married virgins both report a much higher sexual satisfaction rate, much higher attractive attraction rate, right? And they have much less in the
00:52:54
Oliver N Houseway of of the marriage splitting up because they make no comparative analysis. I think making a weird comparative analysis is kind of strange because what what it feels like you're saying and correct me if I'm wrong is I don't want my wife to have had sex with
00:53:06
Andrew Wilsonother men because I don't want her to compare the sex we're having to other men which might make me feel insecure and make me feel that my sex Let me ask you is that do you think honestly believe that that's a less tenable position than yours which is I want my
00:53:19
Andrew Wilsonwife to have had sex with multiple men to compare other men to me if hold on it is oh no No, no. No. No. Andrew, that is what you're saying, though. No, it's not. Well, then then why would you be
00:53:31
Oliver N Houseagainst it? Wait, I'm not. Because women aren't a monolith, Andrew. And women don't all want the same thing. So what? That's not what we're talking about. Did I say women were a monolith and they all want the same thing? Or did I say that
00:53:42
Andrew Wilsonif you make a comparative analysis for outcome that the outcomes tend to be a lot better for the virgin women because they don't make the comparative analysis? I think it is strange to say people ought to have less experience so
00:53:55
Andrew Wilsonthey don't know what they're missing out on. So they don't know what they're missing out on. So So then by You're right. They don't know what So then you want your woman to have previously been [ __ ] a bunch. So you don't you wouldn't want her to be with you only
00:54:06
Oliver N Housebecause she didn't know what she was missing out on. Yeah. Right. So wait a second, Andrew. Andrew, wait a second. Let me let me Andrew, let me let me let me respond to this.
00:54:18
Andrew WilsonIt actually doesn't it actually doesn't matter to me necessarily if she had had sex before. That's not what I asked you. I said, "Do you want your woman to have been previously [ __ ] by other men so she doesn't know what she's missing out
00:54:29
Andrew Wilsonon?" And you said, "Yeah, it takes Hey, here's the thing. I did this to you. It's just not that important to me. That's why I did this to you. It's just not that important to me." Cuz you're a clip chimp. Like I went to your channel and you're a clip chimp, right? You
00:54:40
Oliver N Houseain't never living that clip down. I don't never living that clip down. I don't I don't think there is an universal here. I don't think for example let me say this is universal I
00:54:51
Oliver N Houseasked you wait if you I guess you would be holding all else equal right are you holding all else equal so someone who had had a lot of sexual experiences for someone who never no I am because I think this is a relevant I think this is
00:55:02
Oliver N Housea relevant distinction if there is someone who had a lot of sex and they are identical in every other character trait and quality and someone who didn't that woman is probably going to know what she wants sexually and that's great
00:55:14
Andrew Wilsonbecause then she knows what she likes and that's And you would prefer that kind of woman? Yeah. Okay, I would. Okay, fair enough. Mhm. So when it comes
00:55:23
Andrew Wilsonto promiscuity in society then, right, women who have a lot of sex, they have a lot now they have a lot more experiences to really know what they want. Certain women, yes. Hold on. Because some women might not want that, Andrew. But how
00:55:36
Oliver N Housewould they know if they haven't done it? They don't have the experience. I think I actually do think it's probably good for people to have sex before they get married because then you get into a marriage and the sex is terrible and then it Why are there satisfaction rates
00:55:49
Oliver N Houseso high, bro? There can be high satisfaction rates for mostly is Yes. Correct. Correct. I'm not saying there's not. But I'm saying that for individual people, I think it's probably best to have some experience. That doesn't mean
00:56:01
Andrew Wilsonthat every single girl should have sex with as many men as she can. Right. Well, but but you would admit that if a woman's had sex with a thousand guys, that chick really probably knows exactly
00:56:13
Andrew Wilsonwhat she wants. She probably knows what she wants, but also that's a lot of experience. You wouldn't want to keep her away from that, right? Andrew, let me ask you this. Would you have sex with a woman? Would you be with a woman, marry a woman who had sex with 2,000 men
00:56:25
Oliver N Housebecause she knows what she wants now? She can compare you against 2,000 men. I wouldn't want to marry someone who's a porn star because that's just not like that's not aligned with my like lifestyle. I want someone with like the
00:56:38
Oliver N Housesame interest and who's in interested in the same like career field as me. So I'd want to marry someone. So they could be a porn star and interested in your career. Wait, no. I would want them to be interested in that field and working in that field because I want someone who's comparable in that way because I
00:56:51
Oliver N Housedon't want to Why do they have to work in the field you're in to be interested? Well, no. I think but that's that's something that I value. I value someone who's interested in the same things I am and pursues that as a career. So you're not you would never marry a woman who's not in the same occupation. Not not
00:57:03
Oliver N Houseexact occupation, but same like domain of thing. For example, I wouldn't want to marry someone who's like a grocery store clerk if I'm a lawyer. Like I don't want that power I don't want that power differential. I want us to be power differential. I think so a little
00:57:16
Oliver N Housebit. I don't want someone to be entirely dependent on me and my and my income. What do you mean a power differential? Do you think I think there can be in terms of income if one person's making a lot more money than the other person. I think then there can be a power differential if someone gets into a
00:57:29
Oliver N Houserelationship and doesn't have the ability to get out of that relationship because they're financially tied to that person. And I would never want someone to be financially tied to me. I see. That's what I'm saying. I see. So men shouldn't get married. That's not what I'm saying. I think men should marry
00:57:42
Andrew Wilsonwomen who are on their level. No, no, no, no. I think men should marry women I don't think you realize what you just said. No. The divorce initiators, you would agree, are mostly women, right? I think so. Yes. Yeah. Do you do you think
00:57:54
Andrew Wilsonthat when women initiate these divorces that they just like do it out of pocket or do you think it there was a big buildup? They thought about it for a long time. I would venture to say the second, but I'm sure you're not. No, no, no. I It is right. They think about it
00:58:07
Andrew Wilsonfor a long time. However, if they're the ones who are springing the divorce on the husband, right, he hasn't thought about the divorce for a long time, has he? I don't think it's necessarily the case. I it could be it is the case. Wait a second. Are you Is there data to show
00:58:20
Andrew Wilsonthat men get blindsided by the divorce and here's what the data shows, right? The women initiate it and the men don't want it. They don't want the divorce. Women want the divorce, right? Not the men. So, they've been thinking about the
00:58:33
Andrew Wilsondivorce for a while, right? So, the thing is is that if they can just go and get divorced whenever it is that they want, they can just literally go and file paperwork, right? And the man's not prepared for it. It they have like an
00:58:46
Andrew Wilsonexit strategy. They're prepared. They've been thinking about it for a long time. Man not, right? Man, hang on. Man hasn't married the wrong woman. So men would be Hang on. Hang on, bro. So the financial dependency aspect here, right? The man
00:58:57
Andrew Wilsonis also financially dependent that his wife's not going to divorce him. Right. I think that answer my [ __ ] question and then respond to it. I don't understand your question. Are they partially financially
00:59:10
Andrew Wilsonuh dependent? Every married couple's dependent on each other. Yes. Every one of them. So if she blindsides them with a divorce, right? Then what happens here is when you make the case financial dependency, there's financial dependency
00:59:23
Andrew Wilsonand that leads to like power dynamics, then that would mean women actually have the power dynamic interest here. Because if they can initiate divorce whenever they want and devastate a man financially, so can men aren't. Okay. But they can but they descriptively
00:59:35
Andrew Wilsonaren't. Then why aren't they? They because they want to stay married. They don't think they're not looking for an exit strategy. Women are plotting an exit strategy. So men get blindsided with this, bro. I think that I think