Trent Horn vs. Farha Khalidi DEBATE | Whatever Debates 27
Date: 2026-04-24
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_02Farah Khalidi(guest)
SPEAKER_03Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Trent Horn(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:27
IntroBrian introduces the debate: Trent Horn vs Farah Khalidi on feminism and sexual ethics
00:37:57
Key MomentFarah says it's better for a woman to engage with a dog than have sex with an abusive husband
01:04:52
QuoteTrent quotes Sir Mix-a-Lot to argue against casual sex
01:28:02
Key MomentTrent says he would not commit adultery even to prevent nuclear holocaust
02:04:08
Key MomentTrent shares emotional story about wife Laura's brain tumor and speech recovery
03:07:50
Key MomentFarah's fiance revealed to be philosopher Jack Symes, whom Trent has cited in arguments
03:27:06
OtherDebate wraps. Trent plugs Council of Trent. Farah plugs OnlyFans.
Topics Discussed
00:00:27
Opening: Feminism and Sexual Ethics
Farah argues sex in marriage is not inherently more respectful. Trent argues for virtue and family.
00:12:18
Purpose of Sex
Trent: sex expresses marital love ordered toward procreation. Farah: only necessary condition is consent and dignity.
00:23:13
Bestiality and Slippery Slopes
Trent argues removing procreative purpose makes it impossible to condemn fetishes. Farah distinguishes disordered from immoral.
00:25:00
OnlyFans and Adultery
Whether Farah bears moral responsibility for married men subscribing to her OnlyFans.
01:36:04
Feminism Definition
Attempts to define feminism. Trent acknowledges historical achievements while rejecting the label.
01:58:00
Marriage Market: Youth vs Career
Trent argues women's options diminish with age. Farah argues career-first meets higher-caliber partners.
02:32:26
No-Fault Divorce
Both agree no-fault divorce should be stigmatized but for different reasons.
03:00:46
Oral Sex Ethics
Final exchange on oral sex ethics and where the line is drawn.
Transcript
Page 3 of 4
01:59:11
Trent Horn>> Uh he's 7 years older. >> Okay. Well, he's he's still around Oh, there you go. That kind of makes my point a little bit. Uh you know that the men might either might either. If they're say late third woman's in her
01:59:21
Trent Hornlate 30s, the guy might want to date someone in late 20s. And so, you know, they're compete now. The women are competing with a a lot younger cohorts. And the other problem is the pool of
01:59:34
Trent Hornguys who are good that they would want to marry. a girl might have picked them up when he, you know, I got married when I was 28. >> You know, I know a lot of other guys got married in their 20s. It's like the good guys get picked up and suddenly the guy who's left in his late 30s, his 40s.
01:59:46
Trent HornPeople often, you know, rag on women like the reason you're you're not married in your 40s cuz you you're a psycho who's got all these problems. But like for a lot of guys who putter around, well, they have failure to launch, they probably got their own issues, too. And so it's like I worry
01:59:59
Trent Hornand then so for her it's like she's late 30s. It's either the guys the good guys are taken or the guys they're left with are of varying quality or aiming for younger girls and women need to know about that. >> I don't subscribe to that. Like I feel like it comes off stupid if I'm like he
02:00:13
Farah Khalidididn't he doesn't like me cuz I'm younger. But like genuinely like I met him through work. I met him cuz we were both of like a high enough caliber that we met at like an event we so I don't think women So I think women it's fine to wait until they're in their mid to
02:00:24
Farah Khalidilate 30s cuz for instance like doctors marry other doctors. Lawyers meet like marry other lawyers are not marrying some like 21year-old right. So, I think women should build themselves up first and then they should like cash out from there. So, if they've reached like the
02:00:36
Farah Khalidipeak of their career, mid20s or early 30s or late 30s, I think that's when they should aim to get married because that's when they can meet like the most highcaliber guy, I think, rather than just being >> Why do you need a career to meet a high caliber guy?
02:00:48
Trent Horn>> I mean, your guy seems high caliber. You don't have like a I mean, is he marrying you for your career? Because he likes you. >> Um, well, I got No, I'm saying I met him through my career. Like >> but there's lots of ways >> only fans.
02:01:01
Trent Horn>> No, not through Only Fans. We met at like a philosophy event. >> Okay. But but you don't person have to become a you're not a PhD philosopher. You know, you were able you're able to go and you don't have a you're not a philosopher. You went you went to an event, a college, probably a university
02:01:15
Farah Khalidisponsored event. That's a great place to meet dudes. So it's like you >> I met him at an event where we were both speakers at. Likewise, a do a male doctor is more likely to marry and date a female doctor than just some like female patient that comes in, right?
02:01:28
Trent HornThey married typically people of the same like caliber of success. I'm saying >> well not nec not necessarily. It doesn't have to be the same occupation. And I think for many people and what I would be worried about of saying like oh you got to build up your career and do all this first. >> You don't have to. Sorry. You were saying aren't they drying up their
02:01:41
Trent Hornoptions? Shouldn't they try to like cash out the guy while they're younger? And I'm like no. If we're talking about what's most optimal for cashing out, I would say career over age. >> No. Because it's hard for your fiance. Like I'm sure there's other ladies his age or a little older who like him. But
02:01:53
Trent Hornthen but the pool then of guy of girls he would like it gets wider as the guy gets older. So for each woman as they get older there's just more women that they have to compete against and there's just a smaller pool of guys. If you wait
02:02:06
Trent Hornyou know in your 30s to marry a guy who is of similar age there's going to be less guys cuz some of them already got married off right. >> Um I don't know what the average age of marriage is but >> I think it's about 28. I think women
02:02:18
Farah Khalidishould I regardless even if it does like start to minimize I would prescribe that women don't just think like let me take advantage of my youth by marrying someone young. I would think like if that's the goal it's getting the best
02:02:30
Farah Khalidiquality guy you can. I would say maximizing your career. You're more likely to meet like like my my brother who's a lawyer is way more likely to meet like marry a lawyer who's his like closer in age than just like a 23y old. >> I don't think most people I'd love to do
02:02:43
Trent Horna poll on this. I don't think most people their spouse has their same job. Most people it's like a doctor and a teacher or a doctor and uh you know secretary or invoice person or you know different or
02:02:56
Farah Khalidi>> I don't know if that's true. >> Well, it would given that there's so many jobs and professions out there. >> Pretty close. >> No, similar status. Similar stat. >> Usually guys make a little bit more. But also even like a female doctor and male doctor, he tends to make a bit more. So they could still be the same job and he
02:03:10
Trent Hornstill out earns a little bit more. >> Right. No, but what I'm saying though is that when you go and meet people, there's going to be all different kinds of things that that draw you to them. They might have similar statuses, lower class, middle class, upper class, but
02:03:22
Trent Horndifferent things you do or different circles that you that you run with. But I don't think what I would worry about in this scenario is if somebody, you know, what is the thing you value most? Do you want to have a certain career or do you want to have a certain guy and
02:03:34
Trent Hornand a certain like husband? And I would say, well, ideally the husband's going to be with you your whole life. your career, not necessarily your whole life. Especially what I went through recently with with my wife, like she had her a
02:03:45
Trent Hornbrain tumor removed. And I think, you know, she had it removed and we had the kids at our the grandparents and I spent like two weeks, you know, just trying to
02:03:55
Trent Hornhelp her learn how to talk again. And she was just like I I remember when she was because she she only had like 50 words cuz the tumor was in her speech center. So they had to take it out and it's got and she's speaking a lot better
02:04:08
Trent Hornnow but it's still a long road and she just like looks at me and so she can't she only had like 50 words to use. She couldn't say this is a phone. She couldn't say my name and she's you know
02:04:17
Trent Hornshe's like you love love me like she has to like pantomime. And I told her I'm like look I'm not going to I'm not going to baby talk you cuz I know you're all
02:04:29
Trent Hornin there. I know you're all in there. I'm going to get you out of there. I'm going to get you out of there and you're going to be fine again, but I'm not going anywhere. I think it's way more
02:04:39
Trent Hornvaluable for a woman to find a guy who will have that attitude with them than to find a career. Uh that you can you can get the guy and you can still do the career. And the other thing I worry about is that if you both are working,
02:04:51
Trent Hornyou you get what's called the two income trap. And that can be super stressful on marriages. I don't know if you ever heard about this. the two income trap coined by Elizabeth Warren before she was a senator wrote a book about this I think while she was at Harvard and she
02:05:04
Trent Hornsaid a lot of people have financial difficulty a lot of times it's way easier to to live as a family with one provider rather than two you might think oh no like she's totally dependent on this guy and it's super precarious but
02:05:16
Trent Hornwhen the man and the woman both work then you end up usually you are you need all of that income for your lifestyle so if so if you only have one person working If that person gets sick or they
02:05:29
Trent Hornget like disabled, the other person can pick up the slack. But if both have to work to meet your lifestyle, then you're way more likely to run into financial stress. And when because we've had a
02:05:40
Trent Hornsociety where multiple two people work, it inflates the money supply and it drives up housing. It drives up costs and then it makes things actually more unaffordable for people. So, not to get into the whole women working thing, but we'll probably get into that.
02:05:52
Farah Khalidi>> Just to be clear, I wasn't saying choose cure over a guy necessarily. You were saying that like the best way to like catch a good guy is to take advantage of your youth. And I was saying if the strategy is how to get the best high
02:06:04
Farah Khalidiquality guy, it'd probably be to maximize your career, right? Like I don't think so. >> Usually when you think about successful people, they're marrying people and dating people who went to the same like talk about top tier people. It's people who also went to an Ivy League college. It's, you know what I mean? Like when
02:06:17
Trent Hornyou think of the royal family, like they met people. When I Well, when I say a successful person, when I say a successful person, I don't mean necessarily someone who has an Ivy League or a high six figure salary. I mean someone who is morally successful. They can provide for a family even if
02:06:30
Trent Hornit's modest. They're virtuous. They're not going to cheat. They're not going to lie. They're not going to do drugs. And they're they're faithful. They're not going to beat you when they're in a bad mood or something. >> I wouldn't say someone who I wouldn't
02:06:41
Farah Khalidisay that person is a worse person than someone who's more career oriented. Same way I wouldn't say a young person is a like a better person than an older person. But you were still saying youth is better for catching a high quality
02:06:53
Farah Khalidiguy. And I'm saying, okay, I think career that's the goal. Neither like infers that one's like morally better. >> I don't know. I I would say I know
02:07:02
Trent Hornpeople who have tried to get married at 23, 33, and 43. And >> if the only thing they have to offer primarily other than those things you >> I know people I know people with amazing
02:07:14
Farah Khalidithey have amazing careers if the main thing they have as a woman is just like their looks I agree then like getting married younger. They're going to get a high quality guy if that's like their main thing they have to offer. >> Well it doesn't that I don't think people should marry for those
02:07:27
Trent Hornsuperficial reasons cuz the looks are going to fade. They are just going to fade and you have to be you have to be okay with that. You have to love the person who they are. Like what I knew that I needed to marry Laura because I was driving with her and she hilariously
02:07:38
Trent Hornrecounted a story there. She was volunteering at a nursing home and she was telling about this lady uh who misheard like how she was getting picked up and they're they're like we called your nephew. He didn't pick up. He's
02:07:51
Trent Horncoming in a white pickup. And she just like did the voice perfectly. She's a super animated bubbly lady. Her channel is too far with Laura Horn. She's like one of the few women who's ever made me just like belly laugh. And like I know the stigma like women aren't funny. I'm
02:08:03
Trent Hornlike, well, you know, they're they're guys of a poor sense of humor, but it's like, and she's also a beautiful lady, but it's like, I'm going to love her no matter, you know, they they had to like shave her whole head from the cancer, I'm not going to care. But, so, I mean,
02:08:16
Trent HornI think if you're just relying on looks for a woman, you're in a bad spot. What you should be, men and women, it's like you should be attractive inside and out. And although, what's nice is, I mean, here's one thing I'll agree with you. It
02:08:28
Trent Hornkind of sucks. Women get judged more on looks than men. Men can get by. Men can get by and actually date very attractive people without being that attractive. We call that the Pete Davidson effect. Like there's other ways men can compensate.
02:08:40
Trent HornAnd it sucks for women. It's a lot harder. But I mean, I didn't make the rules. I just try to figure out how to help people self-actualize to win the game. I guess >> I I would like to ask Far if uh you know, there's any dis further
02:08:53
Farah Khalididisagreement that you have with Trent that you want to uh dive into or >> Yeah, I have a lot. Can I go back to the other thing? >> Sure. Sure. >> Okay. Um, so before I went to the bathroom, you were saying that for
02:09:05
Farah Khalidiinstance, the fact that it's reasonable and not seen as deranged or disordered to ask your partner to not sleep with other people, like that's a typical expectation, but it is seen as disordered and unhealthy, for instance, to ask your friend to not hang out with
02:09:18
Farah Khalidiother people, right? Points to the fact that sex perhaps is designed or should be reserved for like marriage and relationships and stuff. Yeah, I would just say one, I don't think people's intuitions of what constitutes as controlling are particularly compelling. For instance, many guys would say that a
02:09:31
Farah Khalidigirl who tells them to stop watching porn is controlling and unreasonable. I've seen this all over like forums and stuff. So, I was >> and they're they're porn brain and they're wrong. >> Yeah. So, my point is basing it off the person's intuitions isn't particularly
02:09:43
Farah Khalidicon convincing. Wait, wait, sorry. And then I have a few other examples. Um, >> can try to keep it to three and then I'll respond. >> Okay, that was the first and then the second one would be a great example of this. for instance, is that like a lot of guys are willing to share their
02:09:55
Farah Khalidiwives, for instance, with other women. Something that you would think is wrong, like having threesomes, and that doesn't trigger their jealousy. So, they'd be okay with it. They wouldn't necessarily be okay with her having sex with another guy. So, again, that sense of like uh
02:10:06
Farah Khalidisexual exclusivity cashes out in jealousy, not believing that sex ought to be sacred uh between them, it's all about just mitigating the jealousy. And then a third example, I think, would be like emotional intimacy. So, for instance, if I were to say to my fiance,
02:10:20
Farah Khalidi"Hey, I'm not comfortable with you spending like one-on-one time with someone of the opposite sex who's single if I'm not there, right?" And he agrees and we make that rule for each other. That doesn't then and I don't think you would think that's unreasonable to request. In fact, like Matt Walsh, a lot
02:10:32
Farah Khalidiof like TRCON say you shouldn't have friends of the opposite sex, whatever. Regardless, the point is it wouldn't be seen as unreasonable to request that. That doesn't then mean like one-on-one time with someone of the opposite sex should be reserved to marriage. Like, you wouldn't think it's wrong then for like unmarried or single people to be
02:10:46
Farah Khalidifriends. You wouldn't think it's wrong for like a brother and sister to hang out or like a college girl and a college boy to like go out for lunch and stuff, right? So, I would want you to like break the mirror for me for why when it comes to that one-on-one time with another person, which is reasonable for
02:10:58
Brian Atlasme to forbid, it then doesn't mean it's wrong for unmarried people to do it. >> Trent, really quick before you respond, really quick. Um, you you had said that husbands or boyfriends would be okay
02:11:10
Brian Atlassharing their girlfriend or wife. >> I said they could be. >> You said a lot. So, could you >> you use the phrase a lot? No way. Could you just No way. I was saying that it's more >> Wait, wait, hold on really quick. Just for clarity, when you say a lot, could
02:11:22
Brian Atlasyou attribute an approximation like a percentage of the amount of boyfriends or husbands who would be okay having their girlfriends or wife sleep with other men whether in their presence or not? >> Wait, that's that's not what I said.
02:11:36
Farah Khalidi>> You Yeah, you were >> I said women. >> Oh, a three a threesome. Their wife is with another woman. Yes. A lot of men are okay with having their wife and another woman like a threesome, like two girls and them.
02:11:47
Farah Khalidi>> Well, I thought you meant like >> So, you're kind of proving my point that you see that one as less like >> I don't think I'm proving because that that doesn't have to deal with fidelity. >> What I said was a lot of guys would be more okay and
02:11:59
Farah Khalidithey are okay for instance with having a threesome with their wife and another girl, but perhaps they as opposed to perhaps a threesome with their wife and another man. just because
02:12:11
Farah Khalidi>> um I think that's because >> um it doesn't make him as jealous. So I was saying that like people's intuitions about it and what they uh like forbid in their relationship doesn't point to sex being sacred because you think lesbianism is wrong, right? You would
02:12:24
Trent Hornthink threesomes are wrong. So we shouldn't just go based off what's reasonable to forbid. >> Well, he's not jealous cuz in that scenario basically his wife isn't attracted to women. Maybe she is. I don't know. But he doesn't see it's not really her that's cheating. It's It's a
02:12:36
Brian Atlasroundabout way for him to cheat. >> Yeah. >> But but really quick, but with another dude there, it's not >> just just quick point of clarification, then I'll have Trent respond. Uh perhaps
02:12:46
Brian AtlasI had made a slight um misunderstanding there, but my central thing was when you say a lot, that was my central thing. Could you attribute a percentage? When you say a lot, what percentage of men uh
02:12:59
Brian Atlas>> engage in like three sums with their girlfriends? >> And for clarity, again, I misunderstood. So, you were saying that men had a greater proclivity to uh having some with with a woman as opposed to a man. That was my mistake. But again, when you
02:13:11
Farah Khalidisay a lot of men, could you attribute a percentage? >> I would have to look it up, but I know for a fact that like men are more okay with having a threesome with their wife and another woman than another man. So, it's not just that men think intuitively
02:13:24
Brian Atlassex should be reserved for man and woman. Like, he would say the intuition about forbidding external sexual partners. I don't think we're disputing the fact that yes, men would be more open to a threesome with another woman versus >> But it doesn't make it doesn't make
02:13:35
Brian Atlasthreesomes with women okay by your view. >> Well, of but of the men that you say are inclined to have threesomes, uh when you say a lot of men, what are we talking here? >> I don't know. But I I mean, I feel like
02:13:48
Trent Hornyou could just ask men, and I think they I think you'd find like not a lot of them would be opposed to having a threesome. >> But is it the majority? I think all she's saying is men are more likely to want at a threesome another lady than another dude. And that's pro that's
02:14:02
Trent Horncorrect. Sure. >> Even if the woman's attract not the number of people that do threesomes, but of the ones who would want threesomes, guys, they would prefer it to be another lady than another guy. >> So you were saying because a couple
02:14:14
Farah Khalidiforbids having sex with their people and that's seen as reasonable. Just because a husband might think I'm okay with us having threesomes with women with not men, that doesn't make threesomes with women more natural by your view or more like uh you know like morally
02:14:28
Trent Hornsanctioned. >> No, but it would just make it it's understandable why a man would want that because he has in theology we call this concupisence. We have a we have a tendency towards that which is evil,
02:14:40
Trent Hornthat which gratifies our own desires at the expense of other people. And that's what motivates men to do stupid thing. And also a lot of men we they're handicapped by evolution. I mean I'm not
02:14:51
Trent Horna big evolutionary psychologist but I think it does explain a lot of women's sexual evils and men's sexual evils. And so for men's sexual evils it's like oh evolutionarily if he has sex with a lot of women his genes will get out there. I
02:15:04
Trent Hornthink like I don't know like one out of every 13 people is related to Genghask Khan or something like I don't know or that's a stat people can look up because um you know he had so many wives and relations with people and things like
02:15:16
Trent Hornthat. So a guy is going to want to try to justify as many of those interactions um as he can. But going but going back you gave the three here. I I'll go go through some of them here. I still think that under your view if sex doesn't have
02:15:29
Trent Hornintrinsic sacredness or it's not intrinsically for the monogous marital union and it's just based on what you it's just based on keeping promises. It
02:15:39
Trent Horncannot explain the deepseated opposition we have to infidelity just the absolute deep-seatedness to it. I'll address your three points but I'll add a few things
02:15:48
Trent Hornon to that. So, for example, um it doesn't explain how uh we break lots of promises and it's not that big a deal or we're like, you know, help me move. Oh, okay. Yeah, sure. And I forget. But
02:15:59
Trent Hornbreaking this promise, like it it destroys relationships. Relationship. Like if you think what is the number one thing that will destroy a romantic relationship? It's infidelity. That's the number one thing that destroys that
02:16:11
Trent Horndestroys rather than aside from incompatible to say that it was going well and then the next day it's over. to destroy it, it would be infidelity. So, it can't just be, oh, because you broke a promise. >> Well, also that applies to emotional
02:16:24
Farah Khalidifidelity, which women also sometimes tend to be more affected by. So, that also relates to where I asked you to break the mirror. No sex with others. It's reasonable to request your partner not have sex with others. Therefore, that implies sex is either sacred for marriage, designed for marriage,
02:16:38
Farah Khalidireserved for marriage, and therefore it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage. On the other side, it's reasonable for me to expect my fiance not to have one-on-one time with a member of the Office of Sex. But you would think it's a leap to then go therefore it's wrong for opposite sex
02:16:49
Trent Hornplatonic hangouts outside of marriage or opposite sex time one-on-one is reserved for marriage. So what's the difference is that when a married person is alone with a person of the opposite sex sex
02:17:00
Trent Hornit's what we call an occasion of sin. It's what it sets the scenario for adultery to happen. So just as we should not do evil, we should not put ourselves in positions where evil is likely to
02:17:13
Trent Hornhappen. lead us not into temptation. >> But it's okay for them to do it if they're single and unmarried, but by your to hang out. >> Uh yes, it it is okay if now there could be cases where if you're in a romantic
02:17:25
Trent Hornrelationship and you want to really you want to save sex or marriage because you believe it's sacred. Uh you might say, "Hey, we're really tempted and we might end up having sex if we're hanging out alone. So maybe we should hang out on the porch. Maybe we should hang out in
02:17:37
Trent Hornthe backyard. should hang out, you know, more of a group setting with people and not put our or if we're alone together in, you know, the the dorm, you know, the the common area of the dorm room instead of the dorm bedroom. Uh, and
02:17:50
Trent Hornthere it's just it's creating a situation where you're not engaging in the evil of adultery or fornication. But then there's other cases where opposite sex, you know, friendships, things like that, yeah, they're totally fine.
02:18:01
Farah KhalidiEverybody has to decide when am I placing myself in a position to do evil and when am I not? It's not about the evil. It's about mitigating your wife's jealousy towards that thing. Even if the husband was super self-disciplined and was like, "I'm never going to cheat."
02:18:14
Farah KhalidiIt's still not unreasonable for the wife or husband to say, "I'm not comfortable with you going over to your male best friend's house and watching a movie on the couch." Even if I trust you won't cheat, cuz it just No, it's not just her jealousy. Because
02:18:26
Trent Hornit's an objectively bad situation to put oneself in. Even if it's like if you said, "Hey, it's okay for me to drink and drive cuz I'm super good at it and I put the window down and I have the radio up and things like that." You have still
02:18:39
Trent Hornobjectively put yourself in a bad situation and as a married man in a scandalous situation. We should also not even give the appearance of evil that someone sees you a married dude at some lady's apartment. It's like they could
02:18:51
Farah Khalidinaturally infer you're committing adultery. That's scandal and one should not do that either. >> Okay. But you still haven't answered why the no sex with others as a reasonable request therefore signals that sex
02:19:02
Farah Khalidiclearly has some reservations or design for marriage. But the rule reasonable rule no opposite sex one-on-one time therefore implies one-on-one time ought to be reserved for marriage. You wouldn't have a problem for instance with some college friends going out for
02:19:15
Farah Khalidilunch like a girl and boy like hanging out after school and watching a movie. So long as they don't fornicate, that's fine. >> Because the hanging out oneonone because the hanging out one-on-one is just a in
02:19:27
Farah Khalidithat scenario between a man and a woman, it is a prelude to sexual activity. It's it's a it's >> with male and female friends. Do you think it's okay? Do you think it's possible for a unmarried for a boy and girl to genuinely be friends if they're
02:19:41
Trent Hornboth straight? >> The age-old question. The age-old question. Uh I I think so. But but here's here's the thing. There's going
02:19:49
Trent Hornto be if two unmarried people spend one-on-one time together. Um I mean if they ended up engaging in fornication
02:19:58
Trent Hornlike yes that is that is bad. Uh like I said I didn't want to necessarily weigh evils here but >> remove for you know I'm not asking about fornication. >> Well you know what I mean but for me like I'm saying like
02:20:10
Trent Horn>> when I ask can they be friends obviously it implies they're not hooking up. Like you know what I mean? >> Yes. Yes. Of course, men and women can be friends, but it's also possible if if a man and a woman become friends and then they say, "Hey, I actually like you
02:20:21
Trent Hornand I like you, too." That's great. The problem is if a married man is friends with a woman, and then they say, "Hey, I like you and I like you." That's bad because that can never be actualized. >> Yes, >> that's the problem.
02:20:34
Farah Khalidi>> But you don't think it's wrong for a single man and a single woman to be platonic friends. They're not fornicating. They don't have feelings for each other. It's not wrong. But it's
02:20:44
Farah Khalidialso not unreasonable for me to request my fiance not have a hang out one-on-one with a platonic straight female friend, >> right? Because it's it's just >> so clearly then opposite sex one-on-one
02:20:57
Farah Khaliditime is not reserved for marriage. And therefore that doesn't just because it's reasonable for me to expect my fiance not to [ __ ] others doesn't mean that [ __ ] is reserved for marriage. >> You should have put on that sailor hat earlier. You got your sailor outfit on.
02:21:10
Trent HornNo, now you're Well, that's the captain's habit. talking like a saber right now. >> No, I >> You take your glasses off though there's anything. >> Yeah. Um, no. This this is jumping over
02:21:21
Trent Horneverything that I've said and I and I feel like it still hasn't >> brought it still hasn't explained to my to what I'm saying here. Would you agree that it is not possessive and weird for
02:21:33
Farah Khalidia husband to say to his wife, "Yeah, don't screw other guys." >> Yeah, it's not possessive and weird. >> Okay. Um, or how about this? doesn't point to sex being reserved or designed for marriage.
02:21:45
Trent Horn>> Let me try something else. Is it wrong for him to say, "Don't screw other ladies. Don't even have sex with other ladies." Is it is it normal for him to say, "If you meet a beautiful woman, don't sleep with her either."
02:21:57
Trent Horn>> Um, yeah, that's reasonable. >> Okay. But it wouldn't be reasonable for him to say, "I don't want you to have any other friends at all." Like, that
02:22:06
Trent Hornwould be possessive. So, like how what is your standard for determining if a rule about um relationships with your
02:22:17
Trent Hornspouse with other people is possessive or um uh justified. But it seems to me the only rule that makes sense out of all of this is oh well it's justified if the situation leads to adult is adultery
02:22:28
Trent Hornor leads to adultery. And if it's has a really very very very low odds of leading to that then it would be weird and possessive like saying I don't want you working at a company where men work like is there possibility of adultery
02:22:41
Trent Hornthere? >> Yeah, possibly. But it's it's it's a very very low possibility. And so it's it's very it's um possessive and not trusting and getting very paranoid in that respect. But it's but there's going to be cases where we're like oh okay
02:22:54
Trent Hornthere's a low possibility so you got to be trusting here. But then as the circumstances change, you're like the possibility gets much more approximate and so it's it makes sense now. It's not possessive. It's prudent.
02:23:04
Farah Khalidi>> Do you think if the wife could know for like if the possibility of him having of a my fiance for instance like having sex with another woman was zero, like
02:23:15
Farah Khalidicheating on me was zero. Would it that would it then be unreasonable for me to ask him not to still spend one-on-one time with someone of the opposite sex? or is it still reasonable even if the chances of adultery are zero just to mitigate my jealousy? Like is my
02:23:27
Farah Khalidijealousy enough to make that request reasonable? >> I don't >> because if so then it has nothing to do with the prospect of adultery and it is about jealousy being the reason that we say don't [ __ ] other people don't think it depends not that those things being
02:23:39
Trent Hornreserved or designed for >> if it's a 0% chance because you know he's visiting his stepg grandmother so yeah she's not related to him but she's 85 years old and he likes to hang out
02:23:51
Farah Khalidiwith her. pretty sure there's 0% chance she's he's gonna like >> well there's also a 0% chance I would rile my jealousy so that's not related to what I asked you which is that like even if I could know for even if there was a 0% chance that he is going to
02:24:03
Farah Khalidicheat on me with this like young attractive woman even if I like it was for certain is it unreasonable for me to ask him not to go watch a movie at her house even though nothing will happen they're not going to like each other I think it's still reasonable and you
02:24:15
Farah Khalidiwould agree because we based boundaries primarily in jealousy not in this idea of like one-on-one time being sacred or sex being sacred. It's it cashes out in
02:24:24
Trent Hornthe jealousy and mitigating each other. >> When does jealousy become unreasonable?
02:24:34
Trent Horn>> I think jealousy could become atypical if it's not something perhaps common. >> I didn't ask atypical. I said where you're wrong and you need to stop like unreasonable to say, "Hey, your jealousy, you got to go to therapy or
02:24:47
Trent Hornsomething. You're you're out of bounds." I'm saying when it becomes unreasonable. Like it would be unreasonable for example to tell your husband you need to quit this company cuz there's a woman who works there just a woman happens to work there or a man who says hey a man
02:25:00
Trent Hornworks at your company I don't want you working there >> that would be unreasonable to me but there's clearly going to be cases where it does become reasonable but to me the the reasonleness and unreasonleness of
02:25:11
Farah Khalidijealousy it does tack onto the intrinsic purposes of sex for marital bonding >> can you answer for me whether it reasonable for watch%
02:25:26
Trent Hornchance you're going to know that >> it's a hypothetical it's a hypothetical I don't have to entertain impossible hypotheticals >> let me ask you this is it wrong for a husband to ask his wife because it's like hey adultery is wrong because you
02:25:40
Trent Hornbreak a promise is it wrong for the husband to say hey I've been really good I earned a lot of money this year can I have a hall pass this week I'm not going to cheat obvious you know, I'm not going to go behind your back, but could I have
02:25:52
Trent Hornjust a freebie this week? So, here he's not being deceptive. He's not breaking a promise. He's he's wanting to alter the terms of the deal, so to speak. Would that Now, in my perspective,
02:26:05
Farah Khalidi>> that's a pigish thing to do >> and it's wrong for him to do that. Yeah, I think >> but what would you say? I think the altering makes it wrong and that's not inconsistent because I said earlier while I don't have a problem with polyamory and people entering polyamory
02:26:17
Farah Khalidiwhen that's the initial contract I had a problem for instance with my friend and her boyfriend who initially were monogamous and then him later saying either I'm dumping you or you have to let me [ __ ] other women in nicer terms. I think that's [ __ ] because it's more
02:26:30
Farah Khalidisorry I think that's messed up because it's more likely that she's doing that out of desperation and not because she actually wants to but because she's now so emotionally attached that she doesn't want to let it go. But that's again it's not inconsistent because it's I'm fine if they got into that arrangement
02:26:42
Trent Horninitially and genuinely out of their own desire. >> But what if we reversed it and they could change their minds? Let's say they began as a polyamorous relationship. It's like two girl, you know, two guys and a girl. Um that's a show I think,
02:26:56
Trent Hornright? So it's two guys and a girl and they started as a polyamorous relationship and one of the guys says to the girl like, "I actually really love you. Like could it just be us?" And she says, "Yeah, I I think it could. Would that be wrong?
02:27:09
Trent Horn>> Wait, sorry. Two guys >> and a girl. >> Two guys and a girl. And they're >> and the guy says to the girl, "Could it just be the two of us?" >> Uhhuh. >> Would that be wrong to ask for that? >> I like
02:27:24
Farah KhalidiI guess like when I think how the three of them came together, I guess I usually assume like first it's a couple and then they add someone on. So, for instance, if it was like a wife and a husband, they met someone off Bumble to like as
02:27:36
Farah Khaliditheir unicorn to hook up with and then the unicorn says to like the husband like, "Can it be the two of us?" I guess you could argue like it's wrong because the initial agreement was that like this is the >> What if there's roommates? Two guys and
02:27:48
Trent Horna girl. They share they share like a three-bedroom house, you know, and then all of a sudden just naturally arose that way between the three of them. I think if their understanding getting into it was like we're going to all stay
02:28:00
Farah Khaliditogether, like I guess it'd be disrespectful. I guess I I don't know enough about the psychology of >> Well, I guess that's so interesting though. >> But the reason Sorry, sorry. To be clear, the reason that I still think
02:28:11
Farah Khalidiit's different to perhaps pivot from polyamory to monogamy versus monogamy to polyamory is because I think we should be more critical and sk like scrutinizing of situations where women are likely to succumb to an arrangement
02:28:22
Farah Khalididue to coercion. polyamory because a lot of times it's the man proposing it onto the woman and then her maybe going along with it because she doesn't want to lose him. That's why I offer more like suspicion of it versus the one where it goes
02:28:33
Farah Khalidipolyory to monogamy because it doesn't necessarily have that same like coercive like social pressure to it. That's why I'm less likely to scrutinize it. >> I think the red pillars who do that reverse that do that oneway monogamy
02:28:45
Trent Hornstuff maybe. But a lot of people who say they're polyamorous or thrpples, I think it tends to be more like people on the far left where it's like the woman likes other women and is like doing this kind of stuff. So I think it's a little it depends what you're talking about.
02:28:58
Farah Khalidi>> The statistics that say usually it's the man proposes that they be polyamorous. And like I'm saying like that's why I'm more skeptical of it of thinking like does the woman actually want to be doing this or is it coercion? That's why I don't think it's inconsistent to be more
02:29:09
Farah Khalidiskeptical of u monogamy to polyamory rather than the reverse problem because that usually that one the reverse poly to mono isn't typically like uh laden with like that coercive or pressure element of the guy proposing it and the
02:29:22
Trent Horngirl succumbing because she's already so emotionally invested and she's scared to lose him. So that's where the inconsistency >> but here's where I think it's going to collapse. uh you're saying like, "Well, I don't like if it's a man and a woman and he wants to alter the deal and bring in another woman and be like, "Hey, can we do this?" And she's like, "That's not
02:29:35
Trent Hornwhat I signed up for." And you're seem to be saying, "Yeah, that's that's, you know, abusive or that's exploitative or coercive." It's coercive. Uh I didn't sign up for that. >> Sorry. It doesn't always have to be
02:29:47
Farah Khalidicoercive. I said statistically it I think I would say because it's usually something the man wants and the woman is already emotionally invested. You know, it's one thing if he proposed it at the onset of the relationship, but I think
02:29:59
Farah Khalidiwaiting until this woman's in love with you and then proposing something which she otherwise would not have agreed to, whether it be polyamory, threesomes, anal, like anything which the man statistically tends to propose onto the woman and she goes along with to satisfy him, I think tends to be a bit more
02:30:13
Farah Khalidimorally compromised. >> So, you're against anal in marriage? >> I'm against anal if the woman is doing it out of coercion, which tends to be more likely the case in relationships
02:30:24
Trent Hornthan casual, by the way. And that's why I feel like I see the biological design right there that um exits aren't entrances and a woman right would be rightful to say you shouldn't ask me um ask me to do that. But when it comes to
02:30:37
Farah Khalidi>> I also think she'd be rightful to ask not because of that but because there is such a culture of pressure on anal I think in order to stave off pressure you want to remove like someone else recommending it. And if she desires it completely out of her own valition free
02:30:50
Farah Khalidifrom des like pressure I think it's fine. But I think if he asks her, I think it's typically wrong because it's usually like embroiled in a culture of like sexual pressure. >> But when it comes when I said about altering the deal, it's like do you think though the man should be free? You
02:31:03
Trent Hornknow, you don't like the man. Okay, I think I see what you're saying here. You don't like she will feel coerced in having to include a woman. She rather would not because she wants to keep the relationship going.
02:31:13
Farah Khalidi>> Not necessarily. I said like I would be more skeptical. I would be want to know if that's the case and statistically I would say it probably tends to be the case. If it wasn't the case genuinely I
02:31:24
Farah Khalidiwouldn't oppose it. My concerns purely come from like the coercive fears. >> The coercive fears. Okay. >> For doing it to satiate him cuz she can't bear to lose. Like that's where my fear comes in. Not just the idea of like well that's unfair because sex is supposed to be between you.
02:31:38
Trent Horn>> Well it's because he shouldn't do something that puts her in a position where she doesn't feel trusted and respected and cherished and loved. He should not put her in a position where she feels unloved. But then by that same
02:31:50
Trent Hornlogic, I would say, let's say he likes this other lady and he doesn't want to bring her into polygamy. He just wants to get a divorce. Like, shouldn't he not do that either because it's unloving to his wife?
02:32:02
Farah Khalidi>> I think the reason I'd be against that is I think like if you're getting married, the contract is like you're staying with each other even if the feeling es and flows unless one of you commits like abuse or infidelity. So, I
02:32:14
Farah Khalidiwould say like the point of getting married is that contract of like, you know, I might fall in and out of love with you, but I'm going to stay. So, I would say that's wrong because you're breaking that contract you made. >> So, would you be against no fault divorce then?
02:32:26
Trent Horn>> Um, I would need to know like what condition specifically. >> Well, of just someone saying, "Well, divorce is just for irreconcilable differences. We just don't get along anymore." And I'll even leave away the
02:32:39
Trent Hornthe legal aspect. Could we at least say we should stigmatize no fault divorce? It's bad for society. It's bad for marriages. It hurts women. It hurts children. Marriage, if we want to treat marriage seriously, it's supposed to be
02:32:50
Farah Khaliditill death do its part. >> Well, two different like my reason for wanting to stigmatize it wouldn't be because I think like that's the building block or what's best for the children, all these things. I'm saying it could be stigmatized because the idea is you're
02:33:02
Farah Khalidimaking a promise to a person saying like even if I fall out of love with you, I will stay with you because like that's what we're signing up for. So, I would think it could be stigmatized because like you ended up acting on an emotional whim which transgressed like the
02:33:15
Trent Horncontract you entered, not because you're like hurting the family or it's bad for society or whatever. Well, that's that's separate I'm guess. >> That's so so you're that's so interesting like what's motivating you here cuz also what's motivating us about
02:33:27
Trent Hornlike what's right or wrong cuz I also believe that there's like universal objective moral facts written into the universe of things you ought to do, things you ought not to do. Um, but when you talk about what is like what does
02:33:39
Trent Hornright and wrong mean to you? What makes something right? What makes something wrong? What what do you believe there's objective morality or or we just make rules for things to work? Okay. >> Um, I think all my arguments right now are based off like agreements and
02:33:52
Farah Khalidicontracts. That's what I'm talking about when it comes to like sex work and like marriage and stuff. I'm talking about like you enter a contract with someone like you're making a sort of deal of like I will stay with you even if I fall in and out of love. You know what I
02:34:04
Trent Hornmean? Is there a moral duty to >> fulfill your contract? >> To fulfill a contract? >> An objective moral duty? >> Um, like found in the universe like
02:34:15
Trent Hornindependent of us witnessing it. Like I don't know >> cuz otherwise you're just proposing like it's kind of like when people try to get me to play Settlers of Katan and like here's all the rules of the game and here's how it all works and I'm like
02:34:28
Trent Hornwood for sheep. I don't know what's going on here. or I'll try to play and I'm like this game I don't get it. I'm out of here. >> I feel like if you just say, well, morality is just social contract theory.
02:34:40
Trent HornLike it's just morality is just about it's just a way of it's a descriptive way of describing how we interact with one another based on for instance like I'm vegan. I think people should go vegan even though
02:34:52
Farah Khalidianimals can't contract a social contract with animals. So I wouldn't say that. I was saying particularly when I'm talking about why I think no fault divorces I want is because you're breaking the contract. I wasn't saying all things only being wrong is just because it
02:35:05
Farah Khalidibreaks the contract. I was just saying for that particular instance I'd be pro-stigmatizing it. >> Do you think there's a moral duty to be a vegan? >> Um
02:35:17
Farah KhalidiI would say it's like the morally right thing to do. >> What does that mean? Um, I would say like ethically it bottoms out and again like what's best for rational agents and I don't think you think animals are
02:35:30
Farah Khalidirational agents and stuff. >> Not rational like we are but they they're capable of of having varying levels of >> I mean all this is like a pivot from the sex stuff like you haven't broken the mirror for me about sex with others. >> I do think it's fair though to answer
02:35:42
Trent Hornhis question is it a moral duty? Yeah. Be because well what I'm talking about is the duties we have to like not commit adultery uh to not engage in fornication uh to not have sex with trees or animals
02:35:54
Trent Hornor dead animals or things like that. I think those rules make sense because there are these overarching moral facts about the universe we can find with our our rational minds along with rules like
02:36:05
Trent Horndo good and avoid evil. But if you're saying you need to do this, you need to do that. I can always have the school boys retort. Who says? And if it's like, well, the contract says, then it's like
02:36:16
Trent Hornto quote um uh Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back, you know, Lando says to him, I thought we had a deal. And he said, I've altered the terms of our deal. Pray I don't alter them any further.
02:36:27
Trent Horn>> Uh we could just change there's no governing moral norm to change the contract to just fit the people who are in power or the people who have other other interests involved. If it's if
02:36:39
Farah Khalidiit's just related to like contracts and stuff, we need an overarching moral fact to say >> I didn't say it was just related to contract. You were saying why am I against or why do I think we should perhaps stigmatize someone for ending a
02:36:51
Farah Khalidimarriage purely based off like falling out of love with them if they agreed to be with each other outside of it. And I was saying like the main reason there would be that like you led someone on and brought them into a contract which
02:37:03
Farah Khalidiyou broke. I wasn't saying that all moral proposition also you harm this person. I'd say it's wrong to for instance like contribute to factory farming animals not because I entered a contract with a cow. So I was just giving that for that particular
02:37:15
Trent Horninstance. >> That's fine. So no I I I I think that um we've we've gone through a lot with that. But what I'm concerned about is once again if um you're you were saying
02:37:28
Trent Hornabout infidelity it's like yeah it's wrong to ask if a person can have a hall pass because that was never in the terms that we had at the beginning. No, no. I
02:37:38
Farah Khalidisaid I'm skeptical of situations in which women might be doing something out of coercion >> because I was saying >> what if a woman asks for the whole pass? >> Um
02:37:53
Farah KhalidiI would say it's less bad to ask. >> Why? >> For the same reason that I think it's less bad for like a woman to ask if they do anal together than the man. It's because when the man does it, I think
02:38:06
Farah Khalidihe's participating in this culture of sexual pressure in which like >> can women but but it sounds like you're saying women cheating is not as bad as men. >> No, sorry. That's not what I'm saying is bad. I was saying like I was saying in terms of what I was saying was bad about
02:38:18
Farah Khalidithe mono the mono tooly thing was that typically women might agree to it because of pressure. So I was saying if the yard stick I'm using is based off like saving off pressure then a woman asking a man to do poly is less bad in
02:38:31
Farah Khalidithat he she's less likely to pressure him to do that. he's less likely to give into that sexual pressure. Like women tend to be more agreeable and stuff. So I wasn't saying it's less bad for them to then enter it. I was saying it's less it's less coercive. >> Okay. >> Would you agree? >> I mean I I think like we have common
02:38:43
Trent Hornground here and that you shouldn't infidelity is wrong that when you break a promise or that it's it's coercive uh because you know you're engaging in this and the person might not want to go
02:38:55
Trent Hornalong with it but they want to keep the relationship so they're going to go anyways. Uh I don't know. Oh, I feel like but by that logic then you could say like if a husband chooses a new job like that could be coercive to the wife
02:39:07
Trent Hornbecause she's only putting up with a new job because she wants to keep the husband around. But that's nowhere near as wrong as like picking up a new lady or something. Say again he gets a new job. It's like, well, is
02:39:19
Trent Hornthat coercive because she may not like this change up and she's just sticking with him uh because she wants to keep the relationship around like >> well that doesn't >> because because like is he coercing? >> But how's that parallel?
02:39:31
Trent Horn>> It's parallel in that he can pick up a new job and even if she doesn't like it, it's not coercive. He isn't doing anything wrong like oh she's only staying because she wants to be with him. She's just tolerating the new job.
02:39:42
Farah KhalidiBut it is coercive if he picks up a new lady uh to keep in. And so I think that it shows that just because he might change something Yeah. Yeah. The thing that makes it coercive isn't just changing a lifestyle habit, right?
02:39:54
Farah KhalidiThat's why I said it's less coercive for a woman to propose polyamory or propose anal, right? So just the just the proposal itself doesn't make it coercive. What makes it coercive is it's typically within a culture where the
02:40:06
Brian Atlaswomen say yes to it, not because they want to, but because they feel coerced into it and pressured into it. >> Wait, really quick, some clarifications here. Can just so we understand the viewers can understand uh when you say
02:40:17
Farah Khalidicoercive can you define what that means? >> Coercive mean is just like a stronger word for like pressuring someone into something >> kind of like impeding Yeah. Like I think coercive is pressuring someone in a way
02:40:28
Brian Atlaswhich impedes on their ability to um consent to it in like an informed way or do something that they would otherwise do of their own valition. >> This just another thing of clarification here. You said this would apply to like anal sex or the man asking for polyamory. Wait, I got I have another
02:40:43
Farah Khalidione. >> I think Well, here's a good example for it, right? So, like for instance, I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman, for instance, every day she wakes up, she showers, she puts on makeup before she goes downstairs, right? I think that's totally fine. But because it's a sensitive behavior and often one, which women do you feel
02:40:55
Farah Khalidipressured to? I would think it would go from morally neutral to morally bad. If her husband said to her, "Hey, what if every morning before you come downstairs and greet me first thing, you put on a face full of makeup?" Right? So, you took something that's morally neutral and you made it morally bad.
02:41:08
Farah Khalidi>> What's wrong with there's nothing wrong with asking that. She could say, "Well, it's a lot of work." >> I'm not speaking to whether the pressure is so intense that she's absolved of responsibility. I was saying you would recognize that perhaps that's a bit more
02:41:20
Farah Khalidimorally compromised than him perhaps saying like something like, "Hey, like you look better in blue than purple." Because the idea is makeup is something which often times women do feel pressured to do. And if it's something in which there's a lot of social pressure that they're mirrored in, then
02:41:33
Trent Hornsomeone else recommending that thing to them can make it more morally compromised. >> And I would put it and my framework would be much simpler would be this. husband should never ask for him or his wife permission to do something that's
02:41:44
Trent Hornintrinsically evil. So adult so having sex with someone you're not married to is uh but uh wearing makeup and stuff like that it it is intrinsically evil. >> Imagine a wife gives birth a week later
02:41:56
Farah Khalidishe decides I'm not feeling great about my body. I'm going to go to the gym. Right? I think that's totally fine. What if her husband says to her 7 days after she gave birth hey what if you start going to the gym again like you're gaining some weight. It's fine if she does it of her own valition. It's
02:42:09
Farah Khalidimorally neutral. If he pressures her into it, this is morally compromised because it adds this pressure. >> His request isn't intrinsically evil. Asking someone to go to the gym can be justified. So, not all evil.
02:42:20
Farah Khalidi>> 7 days after she gave birth, is it morally wrong or is it more morally compromised for him to ask it rather than her ask it? So my point is it's not answer. Yeah. The question is my point was you must not
02:42:32
Trent Horn>> do um >> you cannot ask permission or request someone to to do evil to do something and and immoral and your request itself uh should not be immoral. So for example
02:42:44
Trent Hornthere are things that are intrinsically evil. I you know murder uh essay adultery those are some examples I gave things that are intrinsically evil. There's other things that become evil based on uh circumstance or intent. So,
02:42:56
Trent Hornfor example, asking someone to go to the gym uh is not evil if they're morbidly obese and you're like, "You need to do this or you're going to die." Uh, but it is evil when you are doing it for an
02:43:08
Trent Hornirrational reason that will contribute to to a negative aspect of someone's health like that they're just recovering from childirth or something. So, the difference there is I I think it's clear though uh my view of adultery being
02:43:20
Trent Hornintrinsically evil. It better explains why asking about that stuff is wrong versus like any of these other situations. No, I think this explains it perfectly, which is that you said it's wrong to request something which is morally wrong. But I'm saying something
02:43:32
Farah Khalidicould be morally neutral. Wearing makeup, hitting the gym 7 days after giving birth, perhaps wearing spandex, all these things. But if there's third party recommendation, like a husband recommending it, the request itself, because it's a sensitive behavior, which
02:43:44
Farah Khalidiis often liable to coercion, can turn that morally neutral thing into something more morally compromised by the request without it making the actual thing requested morally wrong. If she does it of her own valition, whether it
02:43:55
Brian Atlasbe polyamory, makeup, spandex, giving birth. I mean, hitting the gym after giving birth. >> Uh, before I have Trent respond, I don't think I really got an answer to the question and I think it's worth uh
02:44:06
Brian Atlasactually getting a definition of coercion. You just said it's pressure or more pressure than pressure. >> I would say it's a it's a type it's pressuring someone to do something that they wouldn't do of their own valition.
02:44:20
Brian Atlas>> When but so >> so impeding on their consent to do it. >> So, okay, question. simply by virtue of asking someone to do something and that's the extent of it just asking someone a question is that coercion
02:44:31
Farah Khalidi>> it depends on the thing asked like it has to be a sensitive thing so if I ask my wife if I if a man were to ask his wife hey what if you wear purple instead of blue that's not necessarily coercive but if the thing if the thing is sensitive
02:44:44
Brian Atlas>> boy boyfriend asks girlfriend to have sex >> um >> is that coercive >> it depends how he does it if he asks like over and over again, but he doesn't
02:44:54
Farah Khalidiforce himself. If he Yeah, if he asks once, I wouldn't say it's coercive. If he asks after she already says no, I would say it's coercive. >> Uh, >> I have a question about a coercive
02:45:06
Trent Hornexample then. So, you're saying husband and husband. This is the fast one. Too much husband and wife. Um, and he wants to ask for a third lady into the arrangement. You said that
02:45:18
Trent Horncould be coercive. You're skeptical. You're concerned. You're just skeptical of it. >> Yeah. But if they entered it again willingly from the onset, it would it'd be >> But you're concerned about coercion there. Would you be concerned? He's not
02:45:30
Farah Khalidiasking for another lady. He's asking to subscribe to you. >> Is that is that coercive? >> Yes. Because Okay. Yes. Because >> porn use in relationships, I think, tends to be something that women turn a
02:45:43
Farah Khalidiblind eye to, but they don't actually want it. Like half of women report being uncomfortable with male porn use in relationships. A third of wives consider it cheating. I think this number is lowballed because I think women I think it's lowballed. I think more women are uncomfortable with their partners
02:45:56
Trent Hornwatching porn. I don't think any woman wants their partner watching porn. >> And there are studies 2014 study that was a representative study with about 20,000 couples said that exposure to
02:46:06
Trent Hornpornography uh this was the it was the Dorn and Price 2014 study saying that they were more likely to have an affair. They were less likely to report happiness in their marriage. So I'm I'm glad. So you so you see uh
02:46:18
Farah Khalidi>> but the paramount sorry the paramount issue for me for why I think porn use is wrong is because I think it's a form of infidelity not that it has those negative consequences. >> Well it's a sign that you've done something wrong. >> My concern isn't that it's a gateway for
02:46:31
Farah Khalidicheating because I think in a way that still takes away the responsibility. >> It's wrong. You're cheating. You're cheating. It doesn't matter if you >> Well, one I think it doesn't fit the definition of monogamy which is sexual exclusivity which most relationships say they subscribe to. So I think you're
02:46:43
Trent Hornbreaking the relationship. I think men who watch porn but won't let their girlfriend be the only fans are in like one-sided open relationship. >> Sure. And I'm glad you say like I'm super stoked you agree that married men using porn. It's cheating.
02:46:55
Trent Horn>> But you're just as you would not sleep with your friend's husband. Why are you doing Only Fans knowing there's husbands checking you out? Like come on, just quit. for the same reason that being young and you see women on TikTok every
02:47:09
Farah Khalididay. They just walk around normally and they say, "I find it really depressing to see married men check me out and realize the only thing separating me from his wife is so being young." So should women who are okay. You even admitted it's easier as a younger woman
02:47:20
Farah Khalidito pull men. Should younger women try to hamper their beauty since married men are more likely to lust after them than women their own age? At what point do you not put the onus on the person? This
02:47:30
Farah Khalidiis dis. That's actually more Yes, it is. Nobody's buying that men are more likely to lust after younger women than women. >> There's no difference from just being attractive and walking down the street
02:47:42
Farah Khalidiand turning on your webcam and sticking your fist up your ass. >> In terms of moral responsibility, I don't know what you do and I'm glad I don't know what you do. >> In terms of moral responsibility for the man perpetrating adultery, yes, there's no difference in moral responsibility on my end. Same way, just because younger
02:47:55
Farah Khalidiwomen tend to be more checked out than older women by married men doesn't mean they have a responsibility to like hide their beauty or their youth. Would you agree married men check out tend to check out women over older women?
02:48:06
Trent Horn>> Farh fara. That is like saying there is no difference between somebody keeping pain pills in their house knowing someone might rob them and take the pills versus someone who sells pain pills to make addicts. You're that's
02:48:20
Trent Hornlike saying there's no difference between those two things. That's the comparison between a being a beautiful woman walking down the street and being you who is an online pornographer. difference with that is that your your idea with the pain pills is that anybody
02:48:32
Farah Khalidiwho takes it, I'm doing a wrong thing. Same way I could be pro- alcohol but against drunk driving or pregnant women drinking and that would be the that would be the analogy is that I'm pro alcohol. >> The difference
02:48:42
Farah Khalidi>> if I Okay, here's a question. If I ran if I ran a liquor store, if I ran a liquor store and people bought liquor from my store and then they went and like drank drive, am I doing something morally wrong by selling alcohol? Am I morally responsible for the pregnant
02:48:55
Trent Hornwomen's friends who come in and buy a bottle of alcohol to give it to their pregnant friend? >> No. Because selling the liquor store is like being the beautiful woman walking down the street. You are more like the bartender who serves a clearly drunk guy
02:49:07
Trent Hornand they can be held responsible cuz you know at least half or 90% of your clients are married. You're more like the guilty bartender who gives a drunk who gives the guy at the bar who's clearly drunk alcohol when he knows he shouldn't. You're more like that.
02:49:19
Farah Khalidi>> Okay. I see it more as the alcohol. Like I I I don't know how I'm responsible for men committing adultery. Same way me being you. >> Cuz you know they're married. You know they're married. You know 90% of them who come to you are married. And you're not even willing to tell them to go away. >> Lusting is a form of adultery. And I
02:49:32
Farah Khalididon't think it's the young women's fault for walking around and men being like lusting after them. >> Yeah. Because like why is porn the one instance you even admitted lust is a form of adultery? >> Because you are putting your naked
02:49:44
Trent Hornsexualized pornographic self out there specifically for them to do that. >> Specifically for is ridiculous. Why do people subscribe to you? >> Um to get off. >> That means it's for married people to get off.
02:49:56
Farah Khalidi>> But well that's but you know that they're married who come to see you and do people buy alcohol from you to get drunk. Therefore women therefore you're selling to drunk drivers. What? >> People can have alcohol just for a lovely fun.
02:50:09
Farah Khalidi>> People could watch porn while being single. I'm not responsible for people committing adultery. I'm not responsible if I sell alcohol for pregnant women drinking or people drinking behind the wheel. >> No. It's the same as if you if you if you had a liquor store.
02:50:19
Brian Atlas>> Uh here before let's let one chat come through. Uh 30 seconds here and then we have one message from Rachel. >> Flavory assassin has donated $200. Thank you. >> Said to Tim Gordon. Catholics and
02:50:32
SPEAKER_00Christians can take some kind of feminism that seeks out equality and there's nothing wrong with that. This of model is type of person subverting the church. >> Well, you're not even religious, right? >> No,
02:50:45
Trent Horn>> I'm not sure what that means. And that's why um we had a discussion about that many many years ago. And I don't like the term feminism because it's a loaded term and it's associated. Why don't you
02:50:56
Brian AtlasI'll I'll ramble and you can do >> here. One thing from uh Rachel Wilson Far. Is it morally wrong for a man to have standards or expectations for his wife or girlfriend? Is it the same or different for a woman to have standards or expectations for her husband or
02:51:10
Farah Khalidiboyfriend? >> I don't think it's wrong in of itself to have standards. It it would depend what it is. Like obviously if the man saying I expect my woman to cover from head to toe and in burka then just because it's a standard doesn't make it justified like right it would depend on what the
02:51:23
Trent Hornstandard and expectation is. >> Okay. Uh well why don't you go use the bathroom and we can uh >> well I want to I want to address that the feminism thing that that was brought up. Um sure. >> Yeah. I I I don't uh subscribe to the
02:51:34
Trent Hornterm feminism but I think that in the past there were forms of patriarchy that were wrong or they were unjust. And it it was um unjust towards women for those
02:51:47
Trent Hornforms of patriarchy to exist. So for example, in the 19th century, there was a court case Jesse Black versus North Carolina. And the question was, so Jesse Jesse and his wife got into an argument and he grabbed her head and he slammed
02:51:59
Trent Hornher down into the wood floor and he badly bruised her. Really hurt her up pretty bad. Bad bruise. And the court said, you know, is he guilty of assault? And the court said, "As long as he doesn't leave a permanent mark, he's not
02:52:11
Trent Hornguilty of assault." >> So it's like, and they said, "We are not going to peer behind the domestic curtain." So it was legal. You could hit your wife. You could leave a bad bruise that lasted for several days as long as
02:52:24
Trent Hornyou didn't leave a permanent mark, like a scar or a broken bone or something like that. And I would say that's unjust. And so changing the law so that you can't beat your wife, that's a good thing. You want to chalk that up to feminism, you can chalk it up to whoever
02:52:37
Trent Hornyou want. I don't know, whatever. Or I'll give you another example. There's a guy, there's a woman name, I think her name was Kathleen Parker. Her husband had her committed to an insane asylum because she disagreed with his theology. And back then, because she was a minister and she said, "Well, I don't
02:52:50
Trent Hornbelieve in this theology you're preaching at the church." So, he had her locked up in an insane asylum. And back then you had to get doctors to approve being institutionalized, but husbands could have unilateral authority to lock
02:53:02
Trent Horntheir wives up in an insane asylum. And so I would say it's society is better that husbands don't have that authority anymore. >> Now, do I think it's gone to the way other extreme with like craziness like
02:53:14
Trent Hornthe Rachel's expectations question that jog something like if women do like a chore chart saying like you only get sex when you do your chores? Uh, no. That's bad. Uh, so I think a lot of things you call feminism are total crazy, but that
02:53:27
Trent Horndoesn't mean in the past there weren't times when women were subject to legitimate abuse and unjust laws. >> And it's good we fixed those. So now I worry it's gone way far in the other direction. So that's that's my thoughts
02:53:40
Brian Atlason that. >> Okay. All right. Uh, I think you honestly trend you gota go I think you got to go harder on far to be honest. But uh I don't know. I I think the
02:53:49
Brian Atlascoercion thing is uh is quite a peculiar uh thing that she's saying here in that uh if men ask things of women. Uh well,
02:54:03
Trent HornI don't like her saying maybe when she comes back we can talk about this saying like um that women can ask for these things but men can't because I think it's equally wrong for men and women to cheat. >> Right. >> So so I that's where I would be
02:54:15
Brian Atlasconcerned. It's she's viewing it through this paradigm or framework or lens of feminism whereby in society women face these uh unique pressures that men
02:54:26
Brian Atlasdon't. Therefore, if a man were to ask a woman to do something that would be a form of coercion whereas >> well when she gets well when she gets back we can ask her because I think also that um >> yeah I think I I'm just trying to get
02:54:39
Trent Hornpeople to say hey look I don't marriage is a good thing. We should faithful. >> Yeah. and she might have a different grounding for explaining that. So then we have to see whose grounding makes more sense.
02:54:50
Trent Horn>> Trent, do you do you consider yourself uh a feminist? >> I said I don't like that label. >> You don't like the label feminist? >> I don't I don't I mean I don't know if I've ever used it in the past, but to
02:55:01
Trent Hornwhat I said earlier was like like I think white people shouldn't mistreat black people. Yeah. >> I think white and black people should not mistreat each other and they should have equal rights. But like I'm not but I'm not a racialist. There's no word to
02:55:13
Trent Horndescribe I think white people and black people should have equal rights. Okay. >> I just think they should. >> So I think men and women should have equal rights. I I think that they are different though and so we are going to society might be ordered a little bit
02:55:25
Trent Horndifferently but they should have the same basic rights like not to get locked up in an asylum or the right to not be >> should women be drafted? >> Should they be drafted >> in the military? >> I don't know. I don't know if I believe
02:55:36
Trent Hornin military draft in general, but I I well they can be um they can be but not necessarily in a combat role. >> Okay. So for example with drafting them for like support roles. >> Uh it depends like um well for example Israel has a male and female draft.
02:55:49
Trent Horn>> Correct. Yes. >> So it's like and they everybody there has to like keep weapons on them and they're they're you know pretty high up about that. So like they have a male female draft and I don't know. I mean I think that would be
02:56:02
Trent Horn>> so we should draft women in the United States. Should we I don't think we should I don't want to be drafting anybody based on our foreign policy. But if we did a draft, I think it'd be fine to I think it's fine to make it men and women. But I think though if we're going to make people if people are going to do
02:56:14
Trent Hornthings for civil service. So whether it's military or firefighting or police, >> I think that um everyone who's sorted who applies or is conscripted has to
02:56:26
Trent Hornpass the same tests. Okay? >> So like if a woman wants to be a cop or firefighter, she can't have a separate woman test. Like if she can't make the men's test, she if it's it's got to be the same test. So that's where I don't
02:56:38
Trent Hornknow if feminists some feminists will say, "Well, women need a different standard." No, I'm sorry. I want my cop to be able to do what all the other men or I want my firefighter to be able to pick me up and carry me out of the burning building. And if a woman can't do that, >> she can't be a firefighter.
02:56:51
Brian Atlas>> Sure. Sorry. >> Uh couple questions. Uh Far the coercion topic. Uh, I still feel like I haven't quite gotten a sufficient definition on
02:57:02
Farah Khalidicoercion. The audience continues to ask for how you define coercion. >> Um, I would say I'm defining it in terms of pressuring someone into doing something which typically they engage
02:57:15
Farah Khalidiwith as a result of pressure and not due to their own valition. So for instance, it's not coercion I think to like you know say to your wife like hey you look better in purple than pink. So it has to be specifically with things that are sensitive more sensitive topics
02:57:28
Farah Khalidi>> would it be? >> So things like anal sex things which typically are liable to um external pressure and which people engage in largely. >> I'll let go I'll stay out. I'll let you go and then
02:57:40
Trent HornI'll have a thought. Go right back. Two or three questions and back. >> Use a break anyways. >> Yeah. Um so I'm a bit confused though. So >> by the way men and women are different. I haven't gone to the bathroom yet. >> Look at that. The bladder. You did you did start with a lot.
02:57:54
Brian Atlas>> You had a lot of Red Bull. >> Have you gone through a lot of your Red Bull yet? >> I've gone through like five. She's had a lot. She's her heart is 200 beats per minute. Uh okay. So uh simply if a man
02:58:05
Brian Atlaswere to ask his girlfriend or wife one time uh to have anal sex just once and I think you sort of went to this well if it's repeated that would be cool. >> I'm sorry. I thought you said sex. Did
02:58:17
Brian Atlasyou say anal sex? >> Well I'm you brought up the topic of anal sex. So if the man one time so your ar correct me if I'm wrong your argument is in society women are more pressured
02:58:28
Brian Atlasthan men to do certain things than the reverse. Uh so if a man were to ask one time uh his girlfriend or wife to engage in anal sex one time >> that in and of itself my understanding
02:58:39
Farah Khalidiis would be coercive because the uh cultural and social zeitgeist puts this pressure on women. >> Oh sorry to rephrase it better. I don't think the man should ask because it's a practice which is liable to coercion and
02:58:53
Farah Khalidithe fact that often times when women engage in it, it's because of pressure from their partner. Not simply that asking once is pressure, but I'm saying that because it's often like mirrored in coercion in the fact that usually it's done as a result of a man like asking
02:59:06
Farah Khalidithem over and over like saying like, "Oh, it's fine. It's no big deal, etc." And then her afterwards being like experiencing physical pain, psychological distress from it, whatever. So, I was saying that like him asking once doesn't necessarily constitute coercion, but I'm saying with
02:59:19
Farah Khalidiwith things that tend to be mirrored in coercion, I don't think you should even necessarily ask. Same way I don't think you should even necessarily ask your wife 5 days after she gave birth to hit the gym. Even if you ask once, you're not coercing her by asking her once, but
02:59:30
Brian Atlasbecause it's often like mirrored in pressure, I don't think she'd even ask once. I don't think she'd even tell your wife, "Hey, how about before you come greet me every day, you put on a full face." >> Okay. So, but even if the man asks once, your position is it's not necessarily