Trent Horn vs. Farha Khalidi DEBATE | Whatever Debates 27
Date: 2026-04-24
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_02Farah Khalidi(guest)
SPEAKER_03Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Trent Horn(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:27
IntroBrian introduces the debate: Trent Horn vs Farah Khalidi on feminism and sexual ethics
00:37:57
Key MomentFarah says it's better for a woman to engage with a dog than have sex with an abusive husband
01:04:52
QuoteTrent quotes Sir Mix-a-Lot to argue against casual sex
01:28:02
Key MomentTrent says he would not commit adultery even to prevent nuclear holocaust
02:04:08
Key MomentTrent shares emotional story about wife Laura's brain tumor and speech recovery
03:07:50
Key MomentFarah's fiance revealed to be philosopher Jack Symes, whom Trent has cited in arguments
03:27:06
OtherDebate wraps. Trent plugs Council of Trent. Farah plugs OnlyFans.
Topics Discussed
00:00:27
Opening: Feminism and Sexual Ethics
Farah argues sex in marriage is not inherently more respectful. Trent argues for virtue and family.
00:12:18
Purpose of Sex
Trent: sex expresses marital love ordered toward procreation. Farah: only necessary condition is consent and dignity.
00:23:13
Bestiality and Slippery Slopes
Trent argues removing procreative purpose makes it impossible to condemn fetishes. Farah distinguishes disordered from immoral.
00:25:00
OnlyFans and Adultery
Whether Farah bears moral responsibility for married men subscribing to her OnlyFans.
01:36:04
Feminism Definition
Attempts to define feminism. Trent acknowledges historical achievements while rejecting the label.
01:58:00
Marriage Market: Youth vs Career
Trent argues women's options diminish with age. Farah argues career-first meets higher-caliber partners.
02:32:26
No-Fault Divorce
Both agree no-fault divorce should be stigmatized but for different reasons.
03:00:46
Oral Sex Ethics
Final exchange on oral sex ethics and where the line is drawn.
Transcript
Page 1 of 4
00:00:27
Brian AtlasWelcome to a debate edition of the Whatever podcast. We're coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. Few quick announcements before the
00:00:38
Brian Atlasdebate begins. This podcast is viewer supported. So, please consider sending a tip through Streamlabs. That's streamlabs.com/what whatever. to display a message on stream is $10 and up via
00:00:50
Brian AtlasStreamlabs or Super Chat. We will be taking viewer questions or comments. We will read those via Streamlabs tips and super chats that are $99 and up in
00:01:00
Brian Atlasbatches during a few breaks uh during the debate. You can see the description for full details. Without further ado,
00:01:09
Brian AtlasI'm joined today by Trent Horn. Trent earned master's degrees in the fields of theology, philosophy, and bioeththics.
00:01:20
Brian AtlasAlso joining us today is Farra Khaledi. She is an online content creator. She received a bachelor's degree in English. You both have about a fiveminute opening
00:01:32
Brian Atlasstatement each and then straight to open conversation. Far uh you go first. >> Okay. Feminism has become a well-worn punching bag in recent years for any and all
00:01:44
Farah Khalidisocial ills people wish to task it with. From male malaise to collapsing birth rates, erectile dysfunction, male suicide, anti-depressants, divorce, and more. People have pointed the finger the finger at female promiscuity in particular for ushering in the supposed
00:01:57
Farah Khalidimoral decay we've all been mired in. Women postponing marriage, putting off children, participating in premarital sex, and pimping themselves out on porn sites has been fashioned into a cultural boogeyman for everyone to raise pitchforks at. The red pill movement,
00:02:08
Farah Khaliditraditional conservatism, which is often just red pill and sheep's clothing, and the pink pill have all coalesed on a campaign to convince women that they'd be much happier if they abandoned their modern lifestyles and gave into their hardwired purpose, marriage. These
00:02:20
Farah Khalidianti-feminists precelitize that the modern woman debasis herself by trading off on her most prized possession in pursuit of hollow ends, and fearmongers her to consider how her body count, digital footprint, and feminist worldview might be an impediment to locking down a husband. Unsurprisingly,
00:02:33
Farah Khalidione of the most common criticisms I've heard as an Only Fans creator is that I'll be hardressed to find a guy who takes me seriously and respects me. But frankly, I struggle to see how men in mass respect the women they supposedly claim to, their girlfriends, wives, and the mothers of their children. Because
00:02:46
Farah Khalididespite an increasingly invogue anti-feminist zeitgeist, I don't believe that sex grounded in love or marriage is inherently more respectful or self-actualizing for women than sex grounded in lust or transaction. Sex grounded in love is often entitled. A
00:02:59
Farah Khalidiman named Randy Vanet repeatedly essayed his 50-year-old partner while she was passed on on pain meds battling throat cancer. He told her about this and she told him this makes her feel violated, but he said it's to make up for the times that her pain got in the way of them having sex. So, she wiretapped a
00:03:11
Farah Khalidiconfession out of him and reported him to the police where he confessed it again. Despite this, the police told Randy that he's done nothing wrong and declined to prosecute. Your husband is the man in your life most likely to rape you. There's often an impulse to assume this sort of statistic cashes out in a
00:03:25
Farah Khalidiwatered down definition of consent and rape, but make no mistake, husbands perpetrate the most violent and repetitive forms of rape. Further, police officers are more prone to dismiss rape reports of this kind due to prejudice that consent is implied by relationships. So, not only does sex
00:03:38
Farah Khalidigrounded in love often lack consent, but this loving rape is more likely to be protected as your partner's prerogative. After all, it wasn't too long ago that marital rape was legal in this country. Sex grounded in love is often violent. Over 5,000 women a day are beaten by an
00:03:50
Farah Khalidiintimate partner in the United States. Over 90% of battered women say jealousy was a repeated trigger. And the majority of male perpetrators of domestic violence report this is the case as well. Thus, the sexual possessiveness commonly featured in love and monogamy
00:04:02
Farah Khalidiroutinely endangers women. Sex grounded in love is often lethal. A man named Kenneth Peacock returned from work to discover his wife in bed with another man. After chasing away the lover at gunpoint, he argued with his wife for hours, drank beer and wine, and then shot her in the head with a hunting
00:04:15
Farah Khalidirifle. Rather than being sentenced to the typical 25 years this sort of crime typically carries, he was sentenced to a mere 18 months in prison and 50 hours of community service. The judge on the case said he wishes he didn't have to impose any prison time at all because quote, "I
00:04:27
Farah Khalidicannot think of a situation which would provoke an uncontrollable rage more than this one. I question how any man could have the strength to walk away without inflicting some sort of corporal punishment." End quote. In other words, executing his wife for betraying sexual exclusivity was treated as not only
00:04:40
Farah Khalidiunderstandable but a justified and proportional punishment. Your husband is the man in your life most likely to kill you. And more than three women fall victim to domestic homicide every single day in this country. If he kills you in the name of sexual jealousy, he might
00:04:52
Farah Khalidibenefit from a crime of passion defense, drawing from English common law, which decreed that catching a cheating spouse was the highest violation of property law and thus justified murder. Even though men commit adultery at much higher rates than women, crime of passion defenses exclusively benefit men
00:05:05
Farah Khalidias they perpetrate 99% of domestic homicide. Sex grounded in love is often is often weaponized to excuse infidelity. 70% of married men watch pornography. And if you press a man on why he thinks it's okay to watch porn while in a relationship, despite the
00:05:17
Farah Khalidifact that his partner is statistically likely to not be okay with it, odds are he'll say it's meaningless because it's purely physical. He doesn't love these other women. Thus, sex through a medium of love often means being cuckolded while he gets off to other women. If he's had an extraar marital affair, as
00:05:30
Farah Khalidi20% of husbands do, though this number is likely lowballed since cheaters don't tend to be the most honest narrators of their own betrayals, he might swear it didn't mean anything either since he doesn't love this other woman. Thus, men cower behind the sentiment of love to
00:05:42
Farah Khalidijustify their infidelity as harmless. Sex grounded in love often primes women to degrade themselves. A woman is more likely to be pressured into sex, violent sex, unprotected sex, anal sex, threesomes, and abortions by a romantic partner rather than a casual partner.
00:05:54
Farah KhalidiThis is why pimps often employ the lover boy method as a coercion tactic to go women into unspeakable sex acts. They know that nothing gets a woman saying yes faster to a sexual act than playing boyfriend or husband. In other words, sex grounded in love or marriage is not
00:06:06
Farah Khalidinecessarily grounded in respect. An obvious example of the love respect gap is that while virtually everyone would say that they love their mother, over 90% of mothers report feeling unappreciated and invisible. And though anti-feminists love to spend female modesty as a prerequisite for male
00:06:20
Farah Khalidirespect, I failed to see how this is the case other than something men simply purport in order to convince some women to remain pure so they can wife them while nonetheless cheating on them with the rest. I'm not here to condemn marriage or love, but rather to urge people to rethink their assumptions that
00:06:32
Farah Khalidia woman reserving sex for marriage or relationships is imbued with more respect or more congruent with her self-actualization than the woman who markets her sexuality for, say, public consumption. >> Okay, I think that was under five minutes.
00:06:45
Trent Horn>> Does that conclude your that concludes it, >> Trent? Go ahead. >> Well, I had a more informal opening statement that I'd like to go through. Um, first I would like to say I'm really
00:06:55
Trent Hornglad that you're here. Um, I think that is a very beautiful engagement ring that you have on, by the way. So, congrats to that. >> You want to show it to the camera? >> It's super That is a nice That's very >> That's a good opening statement. It's
00:07:07
Trent Hornlike you're a hypocrite. >> No, I'm just saying that it's it's a it's a very it's a very shocking thing to hear. It It reminds me, and like I said, this is a bit more informal. We can go back and forth.
00:07:19
Trent HornIt's like when there are some anti-feminist women who sit in front of me and talk about how horrible women are, and I'm like, "Well, you're a woman. This is the weirdest thing ever. So, it's just super duper weird for me
00:07:30
Trent Hornto hear like I think at one at one point and I well I'll include some of this. We'll go back and forth. What I want to say is that um I believe
00:07:40
Trent Hornthat we can have virtue. We can have people there are people who live virtue. To love is to will the good. And there are good people. There are bad people but we need good people in order to keep
00:07:51
Trent Hornthe bad people in check. And I think honestly if we practice virtue and discipline uh as a society, if we understand that each of us is made in the image and likeness of God, then we
00:08:02
Trent Horncan reach our full human flourishing, our full potential as as human beings. And so what I want to argue today is that the root of society, the foundation of society, I think there's often times
00:08:13
Trent Horntwo errors here. Some will say that it is that it is the um individual and others will say that it is the um it's just the country or the state. But
00:08:24
Trent HornI believe that the root of society is the family because it is through the family that we get more people. But I do think it's just it's a baffling thing to to see someone and congrats wanting to
00:08:35
Trent Hornenter into marriage, but could speak about the idea of sex being grounded in love being no better than sex not being grounded in love. That's like 2 plus 2 equals 5 to me. That's that's just a
00:08:47
Trent Hornwild thing. What what what I heard in that opening was really just like I feel like yes, there's bad things, but we could harden our hearts so that the bad things never hurt us or live in virtue
00:09:00
Trent Hornand face the bad things head on and choose to be good even in the midst of evil. Uh it's better to suffer evil than to do evil. It's better to be human and humane to others even if we might get hurt than to be inhuman so that we don't
00:09:12
Trent Hornget hurt. Uh when we talk about feminism, uh I don't like the label feminism because, you know, it has it's been put into this idea of like marriage is bad, men are bad, kids are bad. I don't agree with any of that stuff. So I
00:09:25
Trent Horndon't like the label feminism, but I do like the idea that Marie Shear in 1986 said feminism is the radical notion that women are people. Okay? I think women are people, men are people, treat each other like people. I don't see what's
00:09:36
Trent Hornwrong with that. John Paul II in his go in his work gospel of life he said this in transforming cultures so that it supports life women occupy a place in thought and action which is unique and
00:09:48
Trent Horndecisive. It depends on them to promote a new feminism which rejects the temptation of imitating models of male domination in order to acknowledge and affirm the true genius of women in every
00:09:59
Trent Hornaspect of the life of society and overcome all discrimination, violence and exploitation. So, I think we agree violence and exploitation is bad. I agree all the things you listed were really bad. I think we're going to
00:10:10
Trent Horndisagree on the answer to that. I think the answer is virtue and people willing to take the risk to do good and getting married, having children, promoting a virtuous life, well worthwhile and can
00:10:22
Trent Hornbe done. And I think many other things, pornography, abortion, premarital sex, sexual disorders that inhibits one's ability to be sexually virtuous. I want people not just to have the bare minimum
00:10:34
Trent Hornsexual morality, virtue, doing that which is good. Virtue comes from ve manly men to be men so that women can trust them. I think bad men crave
00:10:45
Brian Atlasfeminism. Good men are the answer to feminism. That's my opening. >> Okay. Uh was there anything else in uh in Far's opening statement that you
00:10:56
Farah Khalidiwanted to respond to? Because she she did lay out quite a few uh feminist positions there. So, >> well, before he does that, what I could say is like kind of like I said in my last paragraph, the point of all these
00:11:08
Farah Khalidiexamples isn't to say you shouldn't get married or to black black pill women on marriage, right? Like obviously I'm engaged. I was just trying to challenge the notion that just because you're sexualizing yourself through a medium of love that it necessarily means that it's
00:11:21
Farah Khalidimore respectful than sexualizing yourself the way I do through something like Only Fans. Cuz usually the rebuttal I hear is that the reason it's more degrading, dehumanizing, and demeaning for me to perhaps like strip off of my
00:11:32
Farah KhalidiOnly fans than do it for someone who I'm dating or married to is because it's more dehumanizing, degrading, those men don't respect me versus your husband respects you, all these things. And I was saying that sentiment of respect,
00:11:44
Farah Khalidiit's it doesn't always cash out in the actual realities and statistics that we see. So, it's more to challenge the idea that doing it privately is respectful and then doing it publicly is inherently degrading. So it wasn't to just bash one
00:11:56
Trent Hornor say do this over this, you know. >> I mean, well, I agree with you that there are there are evil situations in marriage and there are people who have
00:12:07
Trent Hornplatonic and virtuous relationships outside of marriage. Uh, but I think where where you and I are going to disagree, you mentioned like sexualized through love or sexualized through I
00:12:18
Trent Hornguess commerce or or something like that through something like Only Fans. I think you and I fundamentally disagree though about like I would never say that in my marriage I sexualize myself for my
00:12:30
Trent Hornmy wife. What I would say is and the question I would ask you would be what is sex for? And so for me I believe the answer written in our very be our very being is this sex is for the expression
00:12:42
Trent Hornof marital love. So that leads to what is marital love? I would say that and that that gets us to a more fundamental thing. What is love? Maybe you don't hurt me no more. No more. Uh, love is when you will the good for another. But
00:12:55
Trent HornI like one definition of love being this. Love always seeks, not definition, but it's commonality. Love seeks union with the beloved. Like I love going to In-N-Out when I'm out here. I have union with the burger. If you love a friend,
00:13:07
Trent Hornyou spend time with him. Marital love has a very unique kind of union. It's a bodily union. In marriage, husband and wife fully give themselves to one another. Mind, body, heart, and soul.
00:13:17
Trent HornThey give themselves to each other. and free and unreserved in bonds that say I am yours till death do its part it's that complete gift to self a union nothing like it and what's neat about it
00:13:28
Trent Hornis that the man and woman incomplete on their own when they come together that union it's a real union can produce something greater than them it has the capability of producing new a new person
00:13:39
Trent Hornwith an immortal soul that's crazy that that God entrusted us with that and so that child becomes a sign of their gift to each other and so sex is a way of expressing that when husbands and wives
00:13:51
Trent Hornfully give themselves to one another. It's one of the it's the greatest love on earth and I want more people to experience that. And things like the general social survey statistically show that married people are on average happier than unmarried people. There's
00:14:03
Trent Horngoing to be cases like ones you cited, but there's also cases of unmarried people who are more likely to be abused because they're in tenuous relationships. Uh you know, there's lots for example like take abortion. 87% of
00:14:16
Farah Khalidiabortions are obtained by unmarried women. So, you're much more comfortable, secure, feeling with the child if you're pregnant, if you're married, than if you're unmarried. >> But also, 80% of abortions uh were procured by women who conceive the fetus
00:14:28
Farah Khalidiwhile in a relationship with the father. So, why not just draw the line at casual versus in a relationship? And then I can just as easily deduce, okay, therefore, casual sex is better because you're less likely as a woman to be coerced into unprotected sex because it's actually easier for you to like lay out a
00:14:42
Farah Khalidiboundary to someone who you don't have to necessarily see a week later. It's harder to do that to a boyfriend or husband, right? So, you're kind of choosing where to draw the the distinction when I can just as easily draw it casual versus non-casual. >> No, I I wouldn't put it in that way because when someone's in a
00:14:55
Trent Hornrelationship, they're going to be having sex a lot more. So, it makes more sense when you do become pregnant, it's going to be in the context of a relationship where people are not having tons and tons of casual sex. Most people, they
00:15:06
Trent Hornmight have a few flings here or there, but most people who have sex outside of marriage, the number of encounters, it's it's just easier. Well, especially for men, uh, to have casual to have sex in a
00:15:18
Trent Hornrelationship versus just ca casual or I'd say like with a stranger or something like that. So, I I think though it's it's clear in the statistics to to drop down that when you are married, you really have a stable
00:15:30
Trent Hornconnection to that other person that other people recognize there is um in law, in society, and culture. And it really does change the relationship. It makes it something more stable. I'm excited for that for your relationship
00:15:44
Trent Hornwith with your bow. So, and I would encourage that for people that that has been historically throughout history a way to provide stability. When marriage breaks down, we get a lot of other problems. >> Okay. So, you think sex should always be
00:15:56
Trent Horninside marriage and that it should be ordered towards what? >> I think sex is for expressing that kind of love that I give myself to you and only you for the rest of my life. So, not that it should be, that's just what it's for. It's for expressing marital
00:16:08
Trent Hornlove. only you, all of me to you, just you till death do apart. So that's what it's for. And it's ordered when it's put to to that way. When it's used in other contexts like outside of marriage, then things get really they get really
00:16:21
Trent Horndisordered for people. That's why, you know, a lot of casual sex really awkward later because you you speak with your bodies. Hey, I the body is going to you know, it's written into our being. So the body says what it says that I fully
00:16:32
Trent Horngive myself to you. But in casual sex or even relationships, relationships you can walk away anytime you want. There's no paperwork to file. There's nothing you have to do. So there's an awkwardness there of you fully gave
00:16:43
Farah Khalidiyourself to someone you're not actually like bonded to >> in the the cultural setting um related to that. >> But even in marriage, like there are certain conditions that you think are like morally required when you're having
00:16:56
Trent Hornsex with your husband or wife. So what are those? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just think that I mean I'm certainly against things like marital rape for example. So like when when you say there about like husbands raping their w I mean sorry Brian
00:17:07
Trent Hornhusbands essay essaying their uh their wives. Yeah. So like when it comes to um when it comes to things like feminism like I don't use the word feminist to describe myself. I don't there's a lot
00:17:18
Trent Hornof baggage with that. But I also I am not going to say like people who argued under feminism were wrong like about everything. It's kind of like the it's like the civil rights movement. Like I agree with Martin Luther King Jr. that black people should have a right to
00:17:31
Trent Hornvote. I just disagree with him about communism and I think that he was crummy for getting in marital infidelity and that kind of stuff. But like bad people can be right about some things. >> So like yeah, I would say civil rights
00:17:43
Trent Hornmovement, yeah, we need to um blacks should have the right to vote, should be treated equally in society, but I don't I wouldn't necessarily move all the way towards DEI or weird anti-racism
00:17:54
Trent Hornphilosophies, things like that. Similar with feminism, I would agree like I think it's good if there are laws to say that. Um, well, there was that famous case, the Red case. There was a made for TV movie made about it back in the 80s,
00:18:06
Trent HornI think, with Linda Hamilton. She was in Terminator. Uh, drawn a blank. That's fine. That was one of the first cases where a h where a husband was put on trial for for marital rape and then he was found not guilt. they were married
00:18:20
Trent Hornbut separated >> and then like you know he rapes her and then there he's found not guilty and in the trial they're like well that's just one of maybe that's a risk in marriage and I'm like that's crazy. Mhm. >> So, no, I I agree that like nobody
00:18:32
Trent Hornshould be should be essaying anybody. Where I might disagree is if somebody has like a crazy hyperritical definition of consent, you know, where you like, you know, overdefine something. But at
00:18:45
Trent Hornthe base level, I don't I nobody should be essaying anybody. And I I think that's bad if that happens in marriage. Sure. But I think marriage is a protection against that cuz like when you say like, oh, it happens the most in marriage. I mean, there's no way you
00:18:58
Trent Horncould back that up with criminal statistics when we look at like the FBI data of who is the victim of essay and who isn't. >> You disagree with the statistic that your husband's the man in your life most likely to rape you. Like, you think that's just
00:19:09
Trent Horn>> I'm talking about the number of of um essays. I don't know. I'm just going to keep saying it to Brian out here. >> No, you're fine. >> Okay, fine. Then the number of rapes. At least we're not saying grape. That'd be the worst. The number of grapes. I I'm
00:19:21
Trent Hornsaying like we could look up like the number of rapes and see what is the relationship, you know, between the partners. I I think in many cases we're going to have people who are are acquaintances, people who know each other, but the minority are going to be
00:19:34
Trent Hornpeople who are in a married relationship versus just being boyfriend, girlfriend or casual dating or casual most of them seem to be like casual hookups and things like that. Like just the numbers when we look at, you know, the relation,
00:19:46
Trent Hornwe have the suspect, we have the victim. The relationship between suspect and victim, >> the majority of those are going to be they're they're not married. >> Other than like it being consensual, like are there other forms of like marital sex you would say are
00:19:58
Trent Horndisordered? Like if they're using like contraception or anything like that or like what else? >> Yeah. Well, I I would say uh especially as a Catholic, I believe that in marriage, the goal is to fully give
00:20:09
Trent Hornyourself to your spouse and to not hold anything back when you do that. And contraception is a way of doing that. And also, contraception is a way of communicating a kind of like anti-life attitude to a child you might conceive.
00:20:23
Trent Horn>> It's like telling God, it's like telling that future kid, hey, we really want to come together. If you show up, we're going to be really mad. We don't want you here. you know, and that's not an attitude that I want to communicate to my future child. So, yeah, I would be
00:20:34
Trent Hornagainst contraception. Um, I would say that yeah, you you should engage in the sexual act that's ordered towards creating that child, not other kinds of things that people might do, whether it's like sodomy or things like that. But finally, I mean, there's the things
00:20:48
Trent Hornthat you shouldn't do. But I also think though in in married love, John Pope John Paul II talked about this in a book called Love and Responsibility where he says that it's the husband's responsibility to make sure not just that he finds pleasure in the marital
00:21:00
Trent Hornact but that his wife also does reaching both partners reaching climax ideally even simultaneously so they can be fully gifted to one another. So there's bare minimum of consent. Don't do things that
00:21:12
Farah Khalidiare disordered but also should be pleasurable for both. >> Yeah. Yeah, I was just trying to get at like what are the other like bare conditions other than it being in marriage? Like does it morally have to be without contraception? Does it have
00:21:24
Trent Hornto be ordered towards procreation? >> Well, I think that nonprocreative sex using the genitals for a nonprocreative purpose ends up taking us to very
00:21:36
Trent Horndisordered kind of behaviors. And there's no way to draw a line really between the two to principally say, "Oh, this is disordered and this isn't." Uh, now I get people listening be like,
00:21:48
Trent Horn"What's the deal with contraception or oral?" Like, I don't even necessarily want to call it sex. Like, for me, sex is is man and woman coming together. It's marital act, penis and vagina, because that's ordered towards
00:22:02
Trent Hornprocreation. >> It's it's a union. Like, to be a union, you got to be it can't just be one body part in another. Like in the Bible, we talk about how in Genesis, Adam and Eve become one flesh.
00:22:13
Trent Horn>> Like that's not a metaphor. Like like if the doctor puts his hand in my stomach during an operation, like in my ribs or something, like we're not having sex, we don't become one flesh. It's not it's not just one body part and another. It's
00:22:26
Trent Hornthat when it's ordered towards that procreative end, then you truly have union. The two come together ordered towards an end beyond themselves. So that's why though I think that other side the other side of this issue has a
00:22:38
Trent Hornvery difficult time explaining the wrongness of certain kinds of non-procreative sex uh sexual acts with objects um with animals would be another
00:22:49
Trent Hornexample um one that I could give here you know you might say oh well animals that's abuse or things like that and we can hash it out with your thoughts on all that um sexual acts with roadkill for example you know
00:23:02
Trent Horn>> I know these are like wild things. But you know what? I watch a lot of body cam videos on YouTube and I see people get arrested for the weirdest stuff. So I think though if you open the door for
00:23:13
Trent Hornnon-procreative sex being moral, you got to accept all of the weird disordered stuff that I would say is very sexually unhealthy. >> So like sex with roadkill or an animal,
00:23:24
Farah Khalidilike how do you think that should be um like punished? Like do you think just like stigma or it should be like criminal? Oh, criminal. >> Okay. >> It's again, it is against the law
00:23:35
Trent Hornbecause I mean the thing is there are just if we we already live in a culture that is so far gone sexually that is so far gone that
00:23:45
Trent Hornthere's very few lines left to be able to tell people this this is disordered and once sex becomes like this meaningless thing then it lo like the reason sex is so important is because
00:23:56
Trent Hornfamilies make society. Like what is society? It's a bunch of people, right? Where do people come from? >> They come from families. So, it's in the best interest of society to make sure
00:24:08
Trent Hornfamilies are really strong. So, like when a baby is born, they're super helpless. I have three children. They were all very One of them was born at home accidentally. We were it was COVID and so like we didn't want to um we were
00:24:20
Trent Hornwaiting to go to the hospital because we really didn't want to go and he's on his way >> and I catch him and then I'm getting ready to I took off my shoelace to make um like a little tourniquet to tie off the cord and then like the ambulance
00:24:33
Trent Horngets there and all that. But like when that little guy was born it's like wow he's totally helpless. Like me and my wife Laura like we are irreplaceable to him. I mean if we died other people could raise him but it would never be exactly the same. maybe still be a loss.
00:24:47
Trent Horn>> Mhm. >> But so if we're irreplaceable to him, like what if there it's good there's something that makes us irreplaceable that bonds us together, makes us irreplaceable to each other. And that's where marriage comes in. And sex is
00:25:00
Trent Hornreally important to marriage because that's what keeps the couples united together. So that's why I super don't like it that like you do Only Fans and 90% of the people who use Only Fans are
00:25:11
Trent Hornmarried guys. >> Mhm. I mean, I think like like let me give you an example. Like if let's say if I owned a gun store and I found out 90% of my customers were murderers, like
00:25:23
Trent Hornthey used the guns to kill people, I would close down shop the next day. So for me, I'm just like, does that ever like give you pause or make you feel like, oh, guilty or sad or anything?
00:25:33
Farah Khalidi>> No. I mean, you and I maybe have some Well, let me give you an example. So >> you're Catholic. You'd probably think that thinking of someone with lust is a form of adultery, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm pretty rad. I would think also
00:25:46
Farah Khalidiit's cheating to be like checking out another girl or at least it like transgresses monogamy if for instance you're watching porn and stuff like that. Um or if you're like >> and I'm and I'm not like a super weird like oh my gosh if you glance and notice
00:25:59
Farah Khalidisomebody you're cheating. It's like there's a difference between a snap >> looking at someone and checking them out. >> There's a difference between a snapshot and time-lapse photography. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So my point was like lust based off both of our definitions. I don't
00:26:11
Farah Khalidimean just checking someone out, right? So if I were walking around in let's say not even this outfit, I'm at the beach wearing a bikini, right? Let's say 90% of the people who check me out are married men. I would say that they've
00:26:22
Farah Khalidicommitted in adultery. So would you? I would then say that I have a moral onus to cover up just because most of the people looking at me shouldn't be, right? It's fine for single people to look at me perhaps or it's fine for people who aren't like transgressing a
00:26:34
Farah Khalidimonogous relationship. But why does the onus fall on me for them transgressing it when both watching porn and subscribing to someone's only fans and checking someone out by both of our worldviews is infidelity? So why is the onus only fall on me for one of those? Is it just cuz I'm making money off it
00:26:48
Trent Hornor what is it? >> No, I I would reject the premise. I would say that it's wrong for you to use nudity and sex to make money on Only Fans. And I also think women who do it for free on the beach, that's also wrong. I think >> wear bikinis.
00:27:01
Trent Horn>> Yeah. I I think that people that's the virtue of modesty. And the reason for that is I believe and this is where I think we might differ. I think sex has an inherent powerful meaning that is
00:27:12
Trent Hornalways communicated in sexual acts. It is something intrinsic. You can't turn it off. So you can't be like, "Oh, se when I have sex with this person, it means something, but when I have sex with this person, it doesn't mean
00:27:24
Trent Hornanything." That's just a that's a lie. That's not true. Under my view of what sex is because it's written into our nature as human beings. Sex always communicates is about communicating that
00:27:34
Trent Hornkind of marital love. Now revealing the sexual elements of one's body is a prelude to that. So I believe that sex is not just something that we do, it's
00:27:45
Trent Hornsomething that we are. Like we are sexual beings. You have a female body. I have a male body. And so they're they're going so there's sexual elements to that that help to um entice. And so there's
00:27:57
Trent Hornthere's se there's power to that like like there's sexual power like women have that just in their form. There's there's if you look online there's a bazillion Renaissance paintings of topless ladies in beds. There's very few
00:28:09
Farah Khalidiof men naked in beds. Our bodies just don't look as nice. >> I mean the bikini is kind of arbitrary, right? Like men can obviously lust after women or check out women who are dressed modestly as well, right? and that's on them,
00:28:20
Farah Khalidi>> right? So, it becomes on me once I'm in the bikini or on Only Fans, right? So, I guess my point was I don't think I'm responsible for someone else committing adultery. I I don't market my Only Fans towards married men. There are some porn sites like that where it's like life's
00:28:34
Farah Khalidishort, cheat on your wife. I would agree that that's unethical cuz you're like marketing towards adultery, right? But I would say that same way I don't think the onus is on me if I'm walking around in a sweater and a guy's lusting after me if I'm wearing like, you know, a
00:28:46
Farah Khaliditight turtleneck. I don't market my content towards married men and I don't know why the onus would be on me if they're committing adultery when my when my content's not targeted towards it. And like an analogy I think of is, you know, a lot of men, for instance, use
00:28:59
Farah Khalididating apps to cheat on their wives. I don't think, you know, there's something inherently wrong with Bumble. It's not designed for married people to use, but it is a medium where married men routinely do cheat on their wives. Right.
00:29:10
Trent Horn>> Right. No, I Well, I have other issues just with dating apps in general. I think that they contribute I I think that they are built and designed not to really promote stable and flourishing relationships because it's in the app
00:29:22
Trent Hornmakaker's interest to keep you on the app swiping as much as possible not to get into a fulfilling relationship and off of the app. It's against their own monetary interest to help you find long
00:29:33
Trent Horntrue fulfilling lasting love. So that's my step. I guess I would just I would just >> Right. So you're saying something can be misused. Something can be misused doesn't mean it's bad. No, no, it could be misused without it speaking to that medium being morally bad,
00:29:46
Farah Khalidi>> right? >> So just because men, you know, the most common way they have affairs is with a coworker doesn't mean women's entering into the workforce is bad or we should remove women from working. So just because porn and only fans is just one medium and pretty much infinite ma
00:29:59
Farah Khalidimatrix of way in which men cheat on their wives, whether it be through lusting after other women, thirsting to other women's Instagram photos, uh having sex with a co-orker who could be modestly dressed, right? She doesn't have to be wearing a bikini or scantily
00:30:10
Farah Khalidiclad, right? I'm just saying when do like I just feel like porn and of is kind of the one time where we defer the blame of adultery from the perpetrator onto the medium and I do feel like it ultimately like guts men of the total responsibility from it and it just like
00:30:22
Trent Hornparticipates in [ __ ] shaming just because it's like socially satisfying too. >> Well, when do you Well, a few points on there and then I do then I do have a question for you. Um, I think that when you're comparing different things that
00:30:34
Trent Horncould be abused, we have to ask, do they have a uh good compensating good for society as a whole to tolerate, you know, the abuse that is that is within
00:30:45
Trent Hornit. So, for example, like if I had a gun shop, it might be the case that 5% of people who buy them use it for criminal activities, but 99.5% use it for hunting, self-defense, for good things. So there I would say, oh well, it has an
00:30:57
Trent Hornoverarching good and I can tolerate the minority of bad actors who who misuse the thing. Um, when it comes to modesty and things like that, I I mean I agree with you. It's bad if women are always just blame for something like that. Like
00:31:09
Trent Hornguys, if a guy is like checking out a girl and she's she's being modest, that's on him. But it's it's really clear to me that like if like the purpose of lingerie is to sexually arouse a guy cuz he he gets to see all
00:31:21
Trent Hornthe girls lady parts and even they're frilly and all that. uh it doesn't seem like there's that much difference between lingerie constructionally what it's how it's set up versus a bikini. In some cases
00:31:33
Trent Hornlingerie covers more than a bikini like you get like the baby doll dresses you know those things like that. Um and like I said I would say that it's not about saying oh cover up means like you're
00:31:44
Trent Hornbad. I would say it's women are kind of more like nuclear reactors. They have a great amount of power in their body, their sexual powers that they have. And so just like you have to control the
00:31:57
Trent Hornenergy and nuclear reactor before like it could be misused. It would be the same for you know a woman and her her looks are primarily the thing that like entices a guy. So like a girl to get a guy excited, she'll strip down to a
00:32:08
Trent Hornbikini. Like if I strip down if a guy strips down to a speedo, usually girls kind of laugh. Like we get I think we get sexier when we put on more clothes >> like when we have like a three-piece suit or something. But women are just different. And if there was a statistic
00:32:20
Farah Khalidithat men are more likely to lust after a woman if her hair is revealed, would you be a proponent of hijabs or burkas or like where would you draw the line of where women need to pretty much accommodate men's wandering eye? >> I think that's just there's there are there are sexual parts. I
00:32:33
Farah Khalidi>> Well, I think it's context dependent. Like there's a reason that in the Middle East foot fetishes are more rampant and it's because it's like the one body part that isn't revealed, right? So like what we consider sexual like I had a friend who was in National Guard and when he
00:32:45
Farah Khalidicame back even just seeing women's collar bones turned him on like crazy because the only time he saw women for like the past 8 months was you know from like just the face and hands basically right so it is context dependent. >> No cuz what I would say is where sex is
00:32:58
Trent Hornproperly ordered is towards the marital act towards vaginal intercourse ordered towards the procreative end. And so it makes sense then that as a man you would be excited by the things that are
00:33:08
Trent Hornassociated with that with the sexual parts associated with that. Even breasts are a part of that because they do signal health and fertility like human breasts are unnaturally large compared
00:33:20
Trent Hornto other primates for example. So they do have a they have a secondary sex function. >> So our lips though so why not cover up lips? both their sec secondary sex characteristics >> because because lips do not they do not
00:33:31
Trent Hornhave everybody knows the particular parts that are covered up which ones in a properly ordered way will arouse somebody and that's where I said when I said non-procreative sex is bad it's bad a guy has a disorder if he looks at feet
00:33:43
Trent Hornand he gets turned on or if he you know looks at a tree there there are dendrils there's people who get super excited by trees if we don't say sex is for a procreative end then we're not able to
00:33:54
Trent Hornsay somebody's fetish is disordered because otherwise we can't say what sex is even for in the first place. So that's where I would be concerned. If sex is just whatever or it has no actual end, then we can never say, "Hey man,
00:34:07
Farah Khalidiyou've got a sexual disorder. You've got to rewire your brain. You can't be you can't be getting an erection going to the botanical garden. It's not cool." >> Is it fair to say that you think like the necessary conditions of a sex act to be moral or good would be like order
00:34:19
Trent Horntowards procreation, pair bonding, and then consent? Like those are the three necessary conditions. >> Yeah. that it's just it's it's within it's within the marital act. It's done I would say privately so it's tasteful. I don't want people doing that on the
00:34:32
Trent Hornbeach or something. Other body cam videos I have seen by the way. I'm like what are you doing? Uh so I would say that it's it consent is given. It's marital act. Full free gift of self between husband and wife and basically that yeah they're not um I guess I would
00:34:46
Trent Hornlook at it I would look at it this way. Here's how I would summarize Catholic ethic on this. like um if if guns there's gun like take about gun safety like basic thing of gun safety is like don't point a gun at something unless
00:34:58
Trent Hornyou're okay destroying it. So like there's videos of people at shooting ranges and I saw one the guy is like with his friend and he's just like hey man and he points the gun at his friend he's like hey like taking a selfie and
00:35:10
Trent Hornthe range instructor comes over grabs the gun he's like you're out of here you are 100% out of here cuz like that's super duper dangerous. Do not point a gun at something unless you are 100% okay destroying it. I know it's a crude
00:35:22
Trent Hornanalogy, but I'm going to run with it. For a man, don't point the weap don't insert the weapon between your legs unless you're 100% okay with not destroying life, but creating life >> as a result from that. And that's where
00:35:34
Farah Khalidithe marital act fits in. >> Okay. So, I would say for me the only like necessary condition for the most part of a sexual act being moral is if it fulfills self-actualization. So, things like consent, dignity, and
00:35:46
Farah Khalidirespect. I don't think it being ordered towards procreation or pair bonding are necessary conditions. So for example, like you're against masturbation, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. So for instance, I would consider
00:35:59
Farah Khalidiit better for a woman to opt to masturbate than for instance have sex with her husband have sex with a husband who tells her that she looks hideous naked even though only the second is ordered towards procreation and pair bonding. Right. Would you agree with
00:36:11
Trent Hornthat or do you think the second is the better ethical choice? Well, that I mean you could change the other example. It's like she maybe she's like going to go a lot of people might cheat on their husband in that case, but just because somebody commits evil towards you
00:36:24
Farah Khalididoesn't mean you would commit evil. >> I'm just asking between the two. A woman masturbating or having sex with a husband who tells her she looks hideous naked, which one's more ethical? >> Which one's more ethical? >> Yeah, cuz I would pick the first
00:36:36
Trent Horn>> uh Well, I would say the sex act itself between the two of them, there's nothing wrong with that. But sex outside now the sex act itself is nothing wrong but the
00:36:46
Trent Hornhusband's being a total jackass he and he's being you know means yeah he he dis he disrespects her and you could change the genders and you would reach you'd reach the same conclusion >> but I think it'd be more an infringement on her self-actualization and dignity
00:36:59
Farah Khalidifor her to have sex with a man even if she's married towards him even if it's unprotected so it's ordered towards procreation and pair bonding if he tells her she looks hideous naked than for her to just opt to masturbate I'm not saying a woman in the real world has to
00:37:11
Farah Khalidimasturbate because her husband I'm just saying between the two is obviously better, right? I think you obviously agree which is why you're being hesitant about >> No, I'm not hesitant about it because
00:37:20
Trent Hornyou've loaded the example. Uh I'm saying that nonprocreative sex is disordered. Our genitals were not made to be or just orgasm machines. So it's it that is disordered. But there's going to be
00:37:32
Trent Hornlevels of where you can identify the disorder. So let's say like I give well okay I'll give this that example. Which do you which do you think is worth? That lady is just like she could have sex with her abusive husband or she puts
00:37:45
Trent Hornpeanut butter on her vagina and lets the dog lick it off and it's like at least the dog doesn't make fun of me. Man's best friend. Do you think that's better for her than sleeping with her husband? >> Um
00:37:57
Farah Khalidimy concerns with beastiality are just about uh animal cruelty. If you were to like zero out animal cruelty somehow. >> I agree that peanut butter can really get stuck in a dog's mouth. So that can
00:38:08
Farah Khalidibe hard. We'll put we'll try jam. Strawberry jam. >> I would say like it'd be better for a woman to do the dog thing than for instance have sex with her husband who beats her. Yeah.
00:38:20
Trent Horn>> Okay. So you you think it'd be better if she's like, "Oh man, no. Nobody uh >> even though one's more disordered, I think the better thing for me is the one which is more uh congruent with her like
00:38:32
Trent Hornself-actualization when she's not being demeaned, beaten, abused." Yeah. Obviously, it's more disordered and maybe like we would think that's very antisocial of her. >> So, you think you think it's better for a woman to engage in beastiality than to have sex with a crummy guy?
00:38:46
Trent Horn>> With a what? >> A crummy guy. A mean guy. >> It's better to have sex with a nice dog than a mean man. >> Um I don't know about the sex stuff. I'm >> okay. Not not intercourse to engage in
00:38:57
Trent HornWell, fine. Which is worse? Uh the a mean man performs cunningus on her or the nice dog? if there was like a reality in which you can run like test like I'm vegan right so I'm very pro
00:39:08
Farah Khalidilike considering animals you just don't get what they want but yeah but I'm saying that like if you could somehow actually test the animals like desires and like push the levers that they could consent and all those types of things
00:39:20
Farah Khalidiright then like I have no issue saying like it'd be more disordered because it's atypical it'd be more antisocial it'd be more like maybe it could be a proxy for other mental illnesses right but I wouldn't say I would say that it's worse for her to have sex with a man who
00:39:34
Trent Hornbeats her, assuming she doesn't want to be, you know, isn't engaging in some sort of like >> BDSM type thing. >> Okay. >> Like consensual. >> No, because I can let's let's run down this disturbing road more because this is where I have the big problem with
00:39:46
Trent Hornvery minimal. I mean, you put self-actualization here, but I worry that word doesn't really do any work beyond consent. Um, for, you know, you say, "Oh, well, it's antisocial to have
00:39:57
Trent Horna dog, you know, working on you or something like that down yonder." Uh, is it okay to play? Uh, it's okay to go to the beach. We went to San went down to the beach here in Santa Barbara, played frisbee. That's a fun thing to do,
00:40:10
Trent Hornright? >> Let's say I brought my dog and I'm like, "Hey guys, he's super good at this. I'm going to work on frisbee with my dog." Like, that's not an antisocial thing for me to play frisbee with my dog, >> right?
00:40:22
Trent Horn>> So, why why would it be antisocial to do sexual pleasure with a dog if you you do with other people and every now and then phto gets a treat? I mean, for me, it's like it's just patently obvious. It's because sex is for people, and we know
00:40:35
Farah Khalidiit's for people because of the procreative end. When you take that away, you get you get all of this just crazy. >> But the if the issue for you for why it's wrong to have sex with a dog has little concern with the animal cruelty,
00:40:47
Farah Khalidiit's simply because you're saying sex is designed for two people to engage with. So, get just get rid of the dog in general. It has nothing to do with animal and then focus on the masturbation cuz the dog is good shock value. But if the issue is just that sex
00:40:58
Farah Khalidiis designed for two people, why not just keep it between masturbation, like why not just have it be masturbation animals animals desires are irrelevant to you in the moral equation. So just have it be masturbation versus whatever type of sex with a crummy guy.
00:41:11
Trent Horn>> The pro the reason I have to do that is because a masturbation is very common. Okay. It's just a lot of the people watching >> by your view it's as disordered as beastiality because the only reason by
00:41:22
Farah Khalidiyour view is morally disordered is because sex is designed for two people ideally in marriage and uh order towards procreation. The animal cruelty is irrelevant to you. >> No, it's because it's not about because
00:41:35
Trent Hornit's not about animal cruelty. >> It's that sex is divi designed for husband and wife. >> Can I finish? Can I finish please? because it's I have constructed an example where it is there it can't be
00:41:47
Trent Horncruel because the animal isn't suffering any harm or pain or anything like that anymore than if you let him lick the jam out of the jar >> or lick you know if the jam spam like
00:41:59
Trent Hornspilled on your leg you're having dinner and you know that's the trope with the dog right the the food falls from the table dog comes and eats it dang it I dropped the jam on my foot you know you know phto and he comes and licks the jam
00:42:11
Trent Hornoff your foot. Nobody cares. That's not cruelty. But I'm picking this example because it shocks people like that's gross because they've lived in a culture that has brainwashed them to
00:42:24
Trent Hornsay, "Oh yeah, it's fine. This is masturbation is fine. Sodomy is fine. These things are fine." >> And so now I have to say, look, if you take that thinking as to why you think it's fine, you got to accept all these other things. Because I gave the other example, I don't know if I mention I
00:42:36
Trent Hornmentioned I think before the show, but it doesn't have to even just be a living animal. What about people who like, you know, have, you know, use roadkill as a masturbatory aid? So that's necroilic beastiality. >> Yeah, you could still
00:42:49
Farah Khalidi>> There's no way. There's no cruelty there. But clearly that's >> freaking messed up. But you can't say it's wrong. >> No, I could still say something is disordered. The same way if someone told me they refuse to eat any foods aren't like the color blue, we would think
00:43:02
Farah Khalidithat's like again a proxy for some mental issue. We should probably try to correct for it's disordered. I don't know if I would necessarily call it immoral. The same way again if the issue for you isn't any animal cruelty or the desires of the animal why not swap beastiality for like you said dendrophilia people who like to have sex
00:43:15
Trent Hornwith trees >> they're also people most people say they're weird too >> is it morally wrong is that morally wrong >> yeah I would yeah that's not what trees are for you are >> is it as morally wrong as beastiality >> is it as morally wrong
00:43:28
Farah Khalidi>> it should be by your view because it's irrelevant about the because you don't think animals are rational agents has nothing to do with the effects or harms on the animal >> different disordered activities can be
00:43:38
Trent Hornright or wrong based on various circumstances. All right. So, um like I think that fornication like having sex outside of marriage is wrong
00:43:49
Trent Horn>> and also that uh rape is wrong because that's not because sex is for expressing marital love. >> But that rape is worse than fornication. Yeah. >> Right. Even though both of them cont because what is marital love? Marital love is the free gift of self. So it's
00:44:01
Trent Hornwrong in fornication because you have not been bonded together and it's wrong in rape because you're not freely giving. Yeah. So, so yeah, you could pick I'm picking all these other examples cuz once people start to think about it, they say, "Oh, yeah, this is
00:44:13
Farah Khalidior there's other Well, I can even I can get away from those." >> Wait, sorry, one more thing. So, the reason that rape for you is morally worse than fornication is because not Okay, the reason fornication is wrong is primarily because it's sex outside of marriage. The reason that rape is wrong
00:44:27
Farah Khalidiis because one, it could be sex outside of marriage. Two, you're lacking the necessary of condition of consent. So, it's two things for you. The one main reason for why beastiality is wrong has nothing to do with the effects of the animal or the animal's personal desires
00:44:39
Farah Khalidibecause they're not rational agents to you. It's just that they're using sex in a disordered way. So dendrophilia should be as disordered to you on the same level as beastiality because it's not introducing a second wrong thing. Rape
00:44:50
Farah Khalidiversus fornication adds a second wrong thing, a second transgression of a necessary condition. What does dendr What does beastiality offer that dendrilia doesn't? Since you're not factoring in the animals desires. No, I
00:45:01
Trent HornI'm saying that essentially whe whether you call it dendrophilia or beastiality or necrilic beastiality, roadkill, so we're not that's not involving um any
00:45:13
Trent Horninfliction of cruelty whatsoever or consensual necrophilia. Your spouse dies, agrees to be stuffed and kept in the house and do whatever you want. Um essentially all of these things, they're essentially masturbation with different
00:45:27
Farah Khalidimasturbatory tools. >> Yeah. So that's why I'm saying they should all be the same level. Masturbating a sock should be seen as immoral as masturb as having beast and engaging in beastiality. You could say it's more disordered because it could be
00:45:39
Farah Khalidimore of a proxy for mental illness because it's more atypical and antisocial. But from a moral point of view, they all have the same transgression which is just that it transgresses that in your view sex ought to be between a husband and wife. >> But here's the problem. You called it
00:45:51
Farah Khalididisordered earlier. You called beastiality disordered. >> I didn't call it I didn't. Yes. But when I say disordered, same way a person who only who says, "I will not eat any food that isn't the color blue." That's what I mean by disordered. How about just occasional?
00:46:03
Trent Horn>> I'm not saying morally. They have sex with people 90 98% of the time. Yeah. >> And every now and then it's with the dog. >> So that's just every now and then. It's not like saying, "Oh, I only eat what's blue." Like that would just be a weird
00:46:16
Farah Khalidineurosis. It's just every now and then they do it. But even if they don't did it every now and then, that's still weird. It's really wrong. And I would say that it's >> Yeah. disordered for me is a substitute for the word weird just with a bit more like clinicalness behind it. So I'm
00:46:29
Farah Khalidisaying it's disordered and that like a personality is you can have a personality disorder. It's not immoral to have a personality disorder. You can have a neurological disorder. It's not immoral, right? >> No, but just because a recipe in a wrong way.
00:46:41
Trent Horn>> Just because something's weird doesn't mean it's wrong. Like I think eating durian can be kind of weird. It's a really smelly fruit from Southeast Asia. Or blood pudding from England. I think that stuff's weird. But I wouldn't say that it's wrong.
00:46:54
Farah Khalidi>> Agreed. I'm not I'm not conflating disordered and wrong. I'm saying the peanut butter dog thing if you were to make like push the levers so that the dog exactly into it, whatever. Like you were to mess around. >> Push the levers. I'm sure if Come on. If If he licks it off the foot and he likes it, there's not much that that's not that different from that and the
00:47:08
Farah Khalidigeneral. >> I would rather every single person in the world who eats meat rather like put peanut butter on themselves and have a dog lick it off. I think that's way ethically better. 100%. And I think we have fallen fallen into the caverns of depravity because we don't want to say
00:47:22
Farah Khalidiwe don't want to answer the question what what is sex for. I mean did you answer that earlier? What is sex for? Did you give me an answer to that? >> Yeah. So I would say that like the three primary functions of >> No. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah.
00:47:33
Farah Khalidi>> Um is self-actualization uh reproduction and paraboning. But I think self-actualization is the only necessary condition and takes precedence. Wait, sorry. Let me continue. So kind of what I was saying with the masturbation example. I would think it's better for a woman to
00:47:45
Farah Khalidimasturbate than opt to have sex with a guy or her husband who calls her hideous naked. I would also consider it better for instance for a woman to have uh protected so with a condom sex with casual sex with like her male best
00:47:57
Farah Khalidifriend who thinks the world of her than have unprotected sex with her husband who cheats on her even though only the latter is ordered towards that I was going to get to I want to get to this respect. Yeah. So for me, respect is
00:48:08
Farah Khalidimuch more important than for instance whether it's done within marriage or done without a condom because for you contraception is wrong because it's not ordered towards procreation. I think with a condom with a male best friend who thinks the world of her it's casual,
00:48:20
Farah Khalidiit's fun, whatever. I think that is 100% the more ethical choice than her having sex with a husband who's committing adultery. >> Okay. Or maybe he's just like he's been kind of mean lately. He's been in he's been difficult.
00:48:32
Farah Khalidi>> Well, the first Yeah. So, I was saying whether it's her masturbating, having casual sex with a friend who respects her, or even I would take it further. I would go I think it's better for a woman to post a bikini photo online and pay
00:48:44
Farah Khalidiwallet for $5 than have sex with a husband who have sex with her husband who beats her. Again, even though only the latter is ordered towards procreation and pair bonding. And I think like intuitively you would agree all the stuff on the left hand side.
00:48:56
Trent Horn>> Why Why do you have to go off? It's just so weird like your answer to like, oh, I'm in this horrible abusive situation. Well, have you tried being a [ __ ] >> No, no, that's not the point of the
00:49:06
Farah Khalidihypothetical. The point of it, the point of it is to say clearly if you agree that the stuff on the right hand side is more egregious and she ought to opt for the stuff on the left hand side, then you're agreeing with me that the only necessary condition is
00:49:18
Farah Khalidiself-actualization for the sexual act, as in consent, respect, etc. and you are willing to trade off on it being ordered towards procreation and parabolic because only the LA the right hand side is ordered towards those things. But if they were as necessary as consent, it'd
00:49:31
Farah Khalidieither be like a tossup which one you choose or you would pick at least some of the stuff on the right hand side. But it seems even though you do think contraception is wrong and you think casual sex, premarital sex, fornication, all those things is wrong. It still
00:49:43
Farah Khalidiseems like you think it'd be better for the woman and more ethical for her to opt for sex with contraception, with a casual friend, fornication, masturbation, even potentially sex work if she's payw walling a bikini photo than have sex with a husband who
00:49:55
Trent Horndegrades her verbally uh cheats on her, beats her. >> There would be nothing immoral if she chose to have there is nothing immoral if a woman chooses to have sex with a
00:50:06
Trent Hornguy and he's, you know, he's a bad guy. She's choosing to do it. It's not, you know, it's there's nothing immoral if she chooses to do that. But she might also tell him, "We're in a really bad spot. So, I would prefer to not do this
00:50:19
Trent Hornright now until we get our marriage back in order. Can we please do that and figure out what is broken here?" But no, but what you did, what you're doing here with like, "Well, it' be better to post
00:50:28
Farah Khalidia bikini pic than to sleep with an abusive guy." Those are horror is to show what is the necessary condition for you. That's why they're shocking examples to show that well, it
00:50:40
Farah Khalidiseems like you actually don't think contraception is as necessary as the respect component or the dignity component or the honesty about adultery component. Even if the best friend, for instance, that she hooks up with is
00:50:50
Trent Hornhooking up with other people as well. >> Don't ever commit adultery. Don't ever commit adultery. Even if your spouse sucks, don't ever commit adultery. It'd be like if I said, "Well, what if you
00:51:02
Trent Hornhave, you know, you could either steal for medicine. You could steal from this poor person or this rich person." Oh, I guess I'd steal from the rich person cuz they don't know as much. Oh, then I guess stealing is like okay sometimes. If you do those dilemas, you can justify
00:51:15
Farah Khalidianything. >> No, no, that's perfect. Exactly. From that, you could deduce that I think it is pretty much always better to steal from a rich person. So likewise, >> you just shouldn't steal at all. You just shouldn't steal. You >> It's better to suffer evil than to inflict evil.
00:51:28
Farah KhalidiYou're saying from those, if I pick steal from the rich person, you could reasonably deduce that I think it's worse to take from someone who is suffering from more hardship, all other things being equal. So I'm saying the point of my hypotheticals is to prove
00:51:39
Farah Khalidithat you you do consider contraception, casual sex, fornication, all these things to still be morally better than marital sex ordered towards >> be morally worse.
00:51:52
Farah Khalidi>> Wait, what did did you say contraception is better than pro procreative sex? If you're struggling to pick between the left-hand side of things I gave, whether it be her masturbating, her having casual sex with a male best friend, which in which they're using a condom,
00:52:04
Trent Hornso contraception, which introduces another thing you think is wrong, and then also her paywalling. >> I'll be very clear, all of those things are evil. You should never do them. And then the other thing is something that
00:52:15
Trent Hornis not evil, and I would say that it's bad if she feels forced into this kind of situation. But like if the choice is just her being like raped by the husband versus doing some other kind of evil,
00:52:27
Farah Khalidithen it's just well should you do this evil thing or should this evil thing happen which is totally unrealistic. >> The Yeah, it's unrealistic in the sense that like a woman obviously has more recourse than my husband's beating me, time to go star in Only Fans. Yes. The
00:52:40
Farah Khalidipoint of the thought experiment is just for to ask you which traits do you think it's worth trading off on? And it seems like in all of these you're worth it's okay to trade off on okay whatever they used a con him okay whatever she wasn't
00:52:52
Farah Khalidiin a committed relationship it was a male friend okay whatever she posted bikini photo it's very obvious are more ethical than having sex with the guy who's beating her cheating on her going to be okay I am going to be very very
00:53:04
Trent Hornclear about this what the guy is doing is incredibly unethical and if she chooses to have sex with him regardless of that she has done nothing wrong but I don't think that she should be compelled
00:53:16
Trent Hornto have to have sex with someone who is abusing her. But if she chooses to have sex in this situation, then she has not done anything wrong. But if she commits infidelity, which that's what I want to I want to ask you about infidelity. >> I'm not asking you whether she's doing something wrong. Sorry. Which is the
00:53:29
Farah Khalidimore ethical scenario? Sorry. A woman having >> scenarios aren't ethical. People are >> a woman having consensual sex. So he's not raping her. Consensual sex with a man who beats her. She She's not happy
00:53:40
Farah Khalidiabout the beating. It's not consensual beating. or a woman having casual sex with her male best friend who thinks the world of her and treats her great. >> It's the same as if I could say which is
00:53:50
Trent Hornthe more ethical scenario a person works at a job where their boss exploits them or a person goes and steals the more what do you think a person works at a job and they're being they're being paid
00:54:03
Trent Hornbut also it's an unfair working condition and it's substandard and bad versus they go and steal which is the more ethical scenario? Um, well, I would ask for more questions about the stealing one. Like I can give you
00:54:16
Farah Khalididetails for both my categories. >> They they steal >> if they steal from Walmart. I think it's better for them to like steal from Walmart. Yeah. >> How about stealing from a family makes 100,000 a year. >> Um, probably the it's probably better
00:54:28
Farah Khalidifor them to the exploitation would matter too. If they're working in a massage parlor where they're being exploited in the sense if they're being forced to like jerk off customers and their boss is essaying them, then I would say probably rip off the family who makes 100K. Yeah.
00:54:40
Trent Horn>> Okay. So we're okay. And that's the big divide between us that I think we do live in an evil world. The Bible even talks about how the devil is the god of this world. It's in in suffering. There's evil. And the question is how
00:54:53
Trent Hornwill we respond with to evil? Some people say fine, I'm going to be just as bad or even worse. And I would say our true calling is being made in the image likeness of God is to be filled with the
00:55:04
Trent Horngrace of God so that we can go and do good and even suffer through evil. That's why I love being a Christian. My Lord, he was horribly abused. People
00:55:14
Trent Hornmocked him. They whipped him. His skin was falling off of him. And he didn't go and knock over the Judean 7-Eleven. He willingly submitted to horrible,
00:55:24
Trent Hornagonizing suffering for me and you, even though we don't deserve it. And that's what I want to be like. And I think most people deep down they can look at someone and say, "Wow, they really suffered a lot in life, but look at how
00:55:36
Trent Hornthey carried that suffering and always chose to do good." Like I'll ask you this. When you are given a choice between good and evil, should you always choose good? >> Um, yes.
00:55:49
Farah Khalidi>> Yes. All right. Good. That's the most basic element of natural >> I know. But you know what the point of the question was, which is which thing is less bad? And if the less bad thing is the thing which still ticks off more
00:56:00
Farah Khalidiof the things you think are bad such as contraception, fornication, uh casual sex, etc., like versus the things which meet your conditions but only trade off on one thing which is maybe like the husband's not, you know, doesn't respect
00:56:13
Farah Khalidiher, whatever. >> Why is it then the thing with just one transgression versus the thing which has multiple transgressions as in they're wearing a condom, that's a transgression. It's fornication, that's a transgression. She's wearing a bikini photo and selling it. That's a
00:56:26
Farah Khaliditransgression. Masturbation for you would think just by like quantity because all these are necessary conditions for you order towards procreation plus consent. You think just because they're all necessary. Why is it then just the quantity of the ones on
00:56:38
Farah Khalidithe left wouldn't make it morally worse than this one? And I think it's because you do think this one is worse and that these are less of necessary >> because no because there are some things
00:56:48
Trent Hornthat are intrinsically evil. There are some things we ought never do even if we could create good consequences. So like there was a movie back in the 90s called
00:56:58
Trent HornAn Indecent Proposal. Uh gosh, I want to say it was Demi Moore and um I forget who else was in it. But the idea is like a guy offers a husband, I'll pay, you know, I'll give you a million bucks if I can sleep with your wife. And now you
00:57:11
Trent Hornthink about it, you might say, "Oh, well, he could use that million dollars and he could buy um 300,000 malaria nets for children in the Central America and he would save tens of thousands of lives
00:57:22
Trent Hornwith that kind of money." Should he do it? No. Because you should never commit adultery. Sex is so sacred to a marriage. We should never do evil,
00:57:31
Trent Hornspecifically do evil, so that a good can come from it. But I I think yours will be different. And that's why I want to ask about infidelity cuz that's been cuz that was like brought up. It's are you
00:57:42
Trent Hornsaying like let's say just a like two qu I want to hear about infidelity. What do you mean by self-actualization first? Cuz that's just like a vague buzz word. What does what do you mean
00:57:53
Trent Hornself-actualization? >> I would say consent. I would say free from any >> No. What what is that concept? Cuz it's different than consent for you. Oh, sorry. For you it was three things. You
00:58:04
Trent Hornsaid dignity like sex has consent is the minimum but it's good. Sex is good when it has dignity, respect and self-actualization. And that was like the highest thing for you. Like I don't know what that means.
00:58:15
Farah Khalidi>> What does that mean? >> Um flourishing. I would say it's a pretty vague word. I I pick it because no matter what like ethical system you subscribe to whether you're like Catholic or neoaristilian like I think
00:58:27
Farah Khalidimost people kind of subscribe to an idea of self-actualization. And I think even though again you add these other conditions such as it needing to be within marriage and all these things, I think deep down you actually only really think the necessary condition is also
00:58:39
Farah Khalidiconsent and self-actualization because for instance like I watched a video you did about sexual ethics where you were saying like in sexed like the only thing they should really teach is consent, right? >> Like you weren't necessarily saying it
00:58:50
Trent Hornneeds they need to teach it in the context of marriage. I was I think I was talking about what should um like public schools like non-religious schools teach. Now I would love to live in a
00:59:03
Trent HornChristian country where Christian values were a part of the social fabric the country taught. We don't have that. So when I get a choice, if the public school is going to teach about, oh, read
00:59:13
Trent Hornthis book that has graphic, you know, pornographic, well, we said rape bar, I'll say pornographic, pornographic drawings of of oral set, oral stimulation, anal stimulation, and like
00:59:24
Trent Hornkids are reading this stuff and learning about, oh, do this to self-actualize yourself, do all of this stuff. I would prefer, look, if you're going to talk about it in public schools, just say, here's how the plumbing works. Don't rape people. Ask your parents what other
00:59:37
Farah Khalidirules go after that. And I do believe there are other rules. I don't think it's the job of public schools to be teaching those. >> See, that to me kind of shows that like deep down you still see consent as the only necessary condition because like if you think the telos of sex is for
00:59:50
Farah Khalidiinstance it being ordered towards procreation bonding. Wait, sorry, let me be a huge oversight to then say a public school system and sexed it's totally fine like so long as they only teach consent. Sure, in an ideal world they would teach the things you want. you
01:00:03
Farah Khalidiwould love to live in a you know theocracy whatever but for instance like if you think the actual tells of sex is that then consent would not be nearly enough it'd be as reckless sorry one more second it would be as reckless for instance as like a school teaching kids that a knife is just some like a