Trent Horn vs. Farha Khalidi DEBATE | Whatever Debates 27
Date: 2026-04-24
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_02Farah Khalidi(guest)
SPEAKER_03Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_05Trent Horn(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:27
IntroBrian introduces the debate: Trent Horn vs Farah Khalidi on feminism and sexual ethics
00:37:57
Key MomentFarah says it's better for a woman to engage with a dog than have sex with an abusive husband
01:04:52
QuoteTrent quotes Sir Mix-a-Lot to argue against casual sex
01:28:02
Key MomentTrent says he would not commit adultery even to prevent nuclear holocaust
02:04:08
Key MomentTrent shares emotional story about wife Laura's brain tumor and speech recovery
03:07:50
Key MomentFarah's fiance revealed to be philosopher Jack Symes, whom Trent has cited in arguments
03:27:06
OtherDebate wraps. Trent plugs Council of Trent. Farah plugs OnlyFans.
Topics Discussed
00:00:27
Opening: Feminism and Sexual Ethics
Farah argues sex in marriage is not inherently more respectful. Trent argues for virtue and family.
00:12:18
Purpose of Sex
Trent: sex expresses marital love ordered toward procreation. Farah: only necessary condition is consent and dignity.
00:23:13
Bestiality and Slippery Slopes
Trent argues removing procreative purpose makes it impossible to condemn fetishes. Farah distinguishes disordered from immoral.
00:25:00
OnlyFans and Adultery
Whether Farah bears moral responsibility for married men subscribing to her OnlyFans.
01:36:04
Feminism Definition
Attempts to define feminism. Trent acknowledges historical achievements while rejecting the label.
01:58:00
Marriage Market: Youth vs Career
Trent argues women's options diminish with age. Farah argues career-first meets higher-caliber partners.
02:32:26
No-Fault Divorce
Both agree no-fault divorce should be stigmatized but for different reasons.
03:00:46
Oral Sex Ethics
Final exchange on oral sex ethics and where the line is drawn.
Transcript
Page 2 of 4
01:00:16
Farah Khalidibutcher's knife is just something that you hold with your hand you'd be like well no the point of a knife like the tell us of a knife is to cut things therefore you're actually doing something really harmful reckless and dangerous if you don't teach a kid what what that's for you're like setting them
01:00:28
Farah Khalidiup for danger if you don't tell them the primary purpose of a knife you know what I mean you're leaving out something which is the prim primary purpose of it. So, how could you say consent is necessary or consent is the only necessary thing to be taught or so long as we're not aocracy? Like, how is that
01:00:41
Trent Hornnot just like extremely harmful? >> I am making a prudential argument about what I can get away with as a matter of public policy that could be taught in schools right now. What's taught is horrifying. So, I would love to teach
01:00:54
Trent Hornlike they did back in the '9s that I was a kid. You know, here's your promise ring, save sex for marriage. Though, I have my own critiques of purity culture. I feel like a lot of that disproportionately blamed women. Uh it actually was like I think a lot of sexed
01:01:07
Trent Hornlike back in the day or in the '90s was it was kind of like we had this program called DARE. Are you familiar with DARE? Uh just say no to drugs. >> And it turns out it made kids more
01:01:18
Trent Hornlikely to do drugs. It was a horribly counterproductive program. And I think a lot of abstinenceonly education suffered from a similar fate when people were told just say no to sex. Just you know just wait until marriage. I would love
01:01:30
Trent Hornsomething that taught like yes teaching sexual virtue. I would love to teach for children to be taught that. The problem is I'm going to get people who will say part of sexual virtue is people exploring disordered sexual acts and
01:01:43
Trent Hornthroppples and all these other things. So in order if if it's necessary for me to lose things I like to keep out the bad stuff. That's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. But but here my problem with you though is >> but why not promote it being in marriage over consent? Like why is the consent
01:01:56
Trent Hornthing you're never willing to trade off on? >> Fine. I'm fine with schools going back to sex is for marriage and we'll have the fights and the public policy fights. I would love I want that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to teach everybody >> if you could only pick between one of
01:02:09
Farah Khalidithe necessary conditions for you being implemented in sexed between whether it be because like you said you have to compromise since we're in a secular society. Why choose consent over for instance it being ordered towards procreation as the thing to be taught if
01:02:22
Trent Hornboth are necessary conditions. Why do you even have that prejudice towards consent being the more necessary condition? Like where does that even come from? I I don't have a prejudice towards that and I don't think this is a helpful line because we're talking about what I would want taught in like a
01:02:34
Trent Hornpublic school or something like I think primarily I think that families should be instructing children about sexual
01:02:44
Trent Hornvalues. I always get really nervous about non-family members engaging children with questions of sexuality uh grooming and other weird things. I get
01:02:55
Trent Hornreally concerned about that stuff. But going back to what you were saying about self-actualization and things like that, it sounds like I think that's really suspicious that it's like, well, this is one of the highest values for where I think sex is good and moral. I can't
01:03:08
Trent Hornreally define it. It just sort of sounds like like self-actualization. That's okay. If we know what we're actually supposed to be, >> like if you don't know what your goal as
01:03:20
Trent Horna human being is, then you have no end that you're striving for. If it's like, oh, just be who you are. Like, that's a horrible lesson. But if self-actualization means, oh, as a human
01:03:31
Trent Hornbeing, my goal is to be courageous and have the cardinal virtues, to be courageous, to be prudent, to be temperate, and to be just, and that's what I'm made for. I don't always act
01:03:43
Farah Khalidithat way, but I can move towards that end. >> I still I think I could still have an idea of what it moves towards. Like for instance, I think you would agree it obviously isn't congruent with self-actualization for a woman to for
01:03:56
Farah Khalidiinstance stay with a man who beats her. So I could still like obviously articulate like which things clearly >> because she wasn't made she was she was not made to be beaten. She was made to be loved congruent with self-actualization for her to have
01:04:07
Farah Khalidicasual sex with a man who thinks the world of her than unprotected sex with a husband who beats her. >> No, because he I think you think that's a weird definition of sex self-actualization. Like it's very clear what it is. No, because the man who
01:04:18
Trent Hornbeats her is using her as an object to satisfy his wrath. And the man who has casual sex with her >> by your view is also using her as >> Yes. to satisfy his lust. Because he
01:04:29
Trent Hornengages in if it's casual sex, then uh if he's going to if he's going to go and do that, then he's not thinking about this. I'm fully giving myself to you and only you for my whole life. And if a
01:04:39
Trent Hornchild comes from this, I'm going to be here for them. You know a poet once said that some people are hit it and quit it but I more stay in play. Do you know who said that? Sir Mix a lot.
01:04:52
Trent Horn>> So just someone to bring into the conversation but that's why I would say that it is it is abusive in that way. Casual sex is that the guy the guy gets to objectify her and then bail out the door and she has a disproportionate consequences from that.
01:05:06
Farah Khalidi>> No. Okay. We're talking about two different things. I think for instance, it's unethical for a guy to lead a girl on and then like hit it and quit it and not tell her it's going. That's different than the idea of like this girl like actually desires hooking up with her male best friend, but they know
01:05:18
Farah Khalidiit's just like a sometimes they do it type of thing. I think that's totally different than the she's objectifying herself when she does that. >> I don't think like this is also where we differ. I don't think sexualization or sex through a medium of lust or transaction is incompatible with
01:05:32
Farah Khalidiselfactualization. So, we can get into that as well. But on the cheating stuff, I had another like question for you. I know you don't like my hypotheticals, but I have one more. >> Well, then I get to ask you about your rules about cheating. I want to know about that. >> Yeah.
01:05:45
Farah Khalidi>> Okay. So, I'll answer your hypothetical, then I want you to give me the rules for cheating. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Um, imagine there's like an island or society or whatever of like a 100 men or women and all the men of the society adhere to very like chauvinist gender politics. They all believe that, you know,
01:05:58
Farah Khalidi>> so it's Red Pill Island. >> Red Pill Island. And um >> that would be a reality show. >> Yeah. Um they all believe that >> that's what we're going to do here on my island. >> They all believe that the relationship should be polygynous. So like one-sided
01:06:10
Trent Hornopens in which the men can sleep with, you know, commit adultery while the women can't. So the women who >> Well, that that's not the definition of polygamy. Polygyny because it's it's stable bonds. Like the red pillars when
01:06:22
Trent Hornthey say reverse monogamy, they're saying the guy can just run around and screw whoever >> and he's not even b it's the guy can have casual sex and he has a wife. That's not what traditionally polygyny
01:06:33
Farah Khalidiwas. You had you had multiple wives. >> Okay. Sorry. One-sided opens. A more like red pill conception of it in which they're going to be >> he's got an unlimited hall pass. >> He has an unlimited hall pass. He's not
01:06:45
Farah Khalidigoing to budge on this, right? Um this is how the island works. So women can either enter marriages with these men in which they're pretty much signing up to be in onseted open relationships or they
01:06:56
Farah Khalidican opt out and perhaps just masturbate. Is it is it unhealthy or wrong for the women of this island to all forgo marriage and simply masturbate?
01:07:05
Trent Horn>> Here's here's my here is my answer to that. Uh both both would be wrong. Uh and honestly those unions would not even
01:07:16
Trent Hornqualify as marriage because so in so as a Catholic in the Catholic Church we we don't believe in divorce. So we believe like look Jesus said um if you divorce
01:07:27
Trent Hornyour spouse and remarry you commit adultery. What what God has joined let no man put us under. So when like when you get married and the two become one flesh once it's consummated in sex you
01:07:39
Trent Hornhave become one that can't be undone. It's like you can bake a cake you can't get the ingredients back now it's one. So my my point there is but in order so we don't believe in divorce but have you ever heard of have you ever heard of
01:07:50
Trent Hornanulments? Okay. So, an anulment or a declaration of nully is a way of saying that what you thought was a valid marriage >> was actually not valid. In order to be
01:08:01
Trent Hornvalidly married, there are a set of conditions that have to be met. Okay? So, you have to freely give yourself to the other person. You can't be like shotgun wedding, marry my daughter or else. You have to freely give consent.
01:08:13
Trent HornUh and you can't have any impediments that would make it impossible for you to freely consent. You can't have a psychological defect that makes you mentally unwell that you don't really know what you're doing or fully understand the gravity. Uh there's a whole lot of other ones. You can't be uh
01:08:26
Trent Hornblood like close blood relation or adoptive relations. A lot of ones. One of them is you have to have the intent of fulfilling the bonds of marriage. And the bonds of marriage are basically that you are monogamous and you're open to
01:08:37
Trent Hornlife. So if you go into it without even planning to be monogous and and I know somebody this happened to a friend of mine where this was like way back in the day like in the 70s what do you expect
01:08:48
Trent Hornright she like it was a friend's mom so the mom marries this guy in the 70s he's a rich Ron Burgundy-esque famous7s guy that the women love and she's like lucky
01:08:58
Trent Hornto be married to him and he's like hey my office smells of rich mahogany and also I'm still going to see my girlfriends you know and she's like Okay. Um, even at the very even before
01:09:10
Trent Hornthe marriage started, you can see, oh, he's not intending to fulfill an essential element to it, which is monogamy. So, she was granted an anulment because he never intended to actually marry her. Excl exclusivity,
01:09:22
Trent Hornmonogous, full gift itself. So, in that example you gave, it would just be choosing between basically fornication or masturbation. And I would say that one might be more disordered
01:09:33
Trent Hornnon-procreative but however there are other elements beyond disordered disordered there can be injury. So fornication I would say could make it more of a grievous offense overall
01:09:45
Farah Khalidibecause there's more potential injury to people such as a child that could come into this this messed up union. >> Zero out the children. Just have it be adultery without risk of like health
01:09:56
Farah Khalidiissues or children. Is it still worse for Is it still better for her to opt for masturbation instead of these uh one-sided marriages? >> I don't I don't believe in saying
01:10:07
Trent Hornanother important position as a Christian is I do not believe a person is ever in a position where the only two choices they can make are evil and evil. A person can always choose good no matter what.
01:10:20
Farah Khalidi>> You were able to tell me with confidence is morally worse than fornication. Something could be you could still order the evils. So why can't you tell me which is worse for them to masturbate or enter these
01:10:30
Trent Horn>> arrangements? Theology there is a branch of theology called casuistry. This was something very popular in the 17th and 18th century where theologians were doing exactly what you're saying where
01:10:41
Trent Hornthey would run these big flowcharts to try to sort which sins are worse than other sins. And it became almost impossible to make a coherent framework and people would start to lose their
01:10:51
Trent Hornminds like should I do this, should I do that? So, I don't know how to sort, you know, what is worse or not worse. One might have a disordered end, one has other victims involved. It's not a game I'm going to play about, well, here's
01:11:03
Trent Hornthe bad options. Let's choose the least bad. I'm just going to do the good options. >> Which one would you want for like a daughter to end up in a one-sided open marriage or the latter choice?
01:11:16
Trent Horn>> What? Where she she she chooses not to get married, but she engages in the sin of masturbation. eventually this is this is almost turning into your equivalent of the would you rather have a thought daughter or a gay side you're it's almost turning into that
01:11:28
Farah Khalidi>> point the point the reason I like of all these is just to point out again that like I think intuitively and also rational like logically we again only see consent respect and self-actualization as a necessary factor
01:11:39
Farah Khalidieven though I can't necessarily spell out like preemptively like what exactly is self-actualization it's very clear to you I think on an intuitive level that it would be more congrent with her self-actualization for instance At best
01:11:51
Trent Hornat best I could say at best I could say it's less bad than her engaging in some kind of counterfeit marriage even though it might be more disordered in one certain end. But I'm not going to get hung up in cataloging which evils are
01:12:03
Trent Hornmore or less worse. >> The reason I say it is because >> No, I want to go. No, no, no, no, no. I want to go now cuz I entertain this enough. I want to ask about your rules about infidelity because you said you basically said, did you say earlier
01:12:16
Farah Khalidithere's really no difference between sex that's done for lust and sex that's done for love. >> I didn't say there's no difference. I said I wouldn't say that sex done through a medium of love is inherently
01:12:26
Farah Khalidimore respectful towards that woman or congruent with self-actualization than sex through a medium of lust or transaction. I could spell it out for like why I have that belief of why I don't think sex work is inherently more
01:12:38
Farah Khalididegrading actually like obviously like the actual skin trade is horrible for women because it's just a veneer for sex trafficking most of the time but I think as a concept like it's not necessarily
01:12:48
Farah Khalidimore degrading for a woman to uh yeah like sell sex or do it through a medium of lust. >> Okay. So >> removing coercion or her getting her hopes up about the guy coming back the
01:13:00
Trent Hornnext morning like her having like full informed consent and desire and all those things. Yeah. I don't think it's >> here's a statement sex that is given because you love the
01:13:12
Trent Hornother person more than anyone else because you love them. That is morally superior to having sex so you can make money. Now is that statement true or false?
01:13:27
Trent HornNo, >> it's false. >> No. Yeah, that that's just like the opposite of my argument. Yeah, >> I know. And it's that's super. So, what I would say is then you
01:13:38
Trent Hornengaging in relations with your future husband and then you going and having, let's say you had relations with somebody else while you're married. They're they're just they're morally
01:13:50
Farah Khalidiequivalent. Um, no. One's committing adultery, which is wrong because you're breaking like the contract you enter into with your spouse, which is to ideally like
01:14:02
Farah Khalidisymmetrically mitigate their jealousy and stuff like that. But, and I wouldn't even say that ne necessarily means both are equal in general. Like one could be better and that it could be more enjoyable. It could be more, you know,
01:14:14
Farah Khalidiit could make you happier and all those things. I'm just saying on its face, I don't think one is necessarily more moral. You could still prescribe that someone does one over the other because maybe it'll lead them to be happier and all
01:14:26
Farah Khalidithose things, but I'm saying I don't believe that just because a woman like consensually gets naked for strangers that she's degrading herself versus getting naked for her husband. >> Yeah, that's I feel like I feel like you have to create this framework to justify
01:14:40
Farah Khalidiwhat you do. >> Um, >> and most people seeing this would just say that's totally bonkers. I mean, I've I've been I've been putting this out there. I started in Only Fans like years after I was doing social media full-time. I was a virgin until I met my fiance. Like, I was putting this out
01:14:52
Farah Khalidithere as a virgin that I still think this. So, none of it's contingent on me just trying to like justify my career. >> No, because you're going to get married. >> Yeah. >> But you're still going to get naked for other guys even after you're married,
01:15:05
Trent Hornright? >> Um I wouldn't like quit my Only Fans. Yes. >> You're going to get naked for other guys? I I would say, but let's say this.
01:15:15
Trent HornLet's say guy guys Bob is married to Katherine. Okay. And Katherine has this fun co-worker, Ted. He's just a really fun guy. And Katherine sends some naked
01:15:26
Trent Hornselfies to Ted. Uh like, "Hey, this must be cute. What do you think? Hasn't Catherine cheated here? She's she's unfaithful in getting naked for another
01:15:36
Farah Khalidiguy when she's married to Bob." >> Yeah. So you could say it's um it's it transgresses monogamy. So for instance, the reason that I think porn use is wrong in relationships is because I
01:15:48
Farah Khalidithink it constitutes infidelity and so would you. And a lot of people think that's contradictory. For instance, that I like do porn, but I'm against porn use in relationships, which I think is very like unnuanced, right? Like I could be
01:16:00
Farah Khalidipro- alcohol but be against like drunk driving or against pregnant women drinking, right? because I'm pro a substance doesn't mean I think I would prescribe it to every single person and there's still instances where it's obviously like morally unconscionable for people to engage with it, right? So, I don't know where people think that
01:16:14
Trent Hornlike >> would you be willing to do this? Would you be willing to ask your users if they're married and if they're you're I don't know what they're called only fans. I have a Patreon like subscribers. >> Okay. Would you be willing to ask your
01:16:25
Trent Hornsubs um hey if you're married could you unsub from me please? Would you be willing to ask them that? Um, yeah. I mean, like, if you look at my social media profile, like it's all about just me saying like, "I don't
01:16:39
Trent Hornthink I should watch porn in relationships." It's definitely not like I'm not >> Then you'd have you'd have no problem asking them like a little message like, "Hey, thanks for subscribing. By the way, if you're married, I would really prefer >> I would have problem a problem with it.
01:16:50
Farah KhalidiNot because I disagree with the sentiment, but because I think part of the fantasy of Only Fans is not that it caters to men in relationships, but the fantasy is you're playing like this sort of character. So I think to give this
01:17:01
Farah Khalidisort of like sterile message to someone on an Only Fans would like break a fantasy. Not because I want those types of customers, but that's why I'd be against it. Like from the performance standpoint,
01:17:11
Trent Horn>> do you feel bad at all for the misery it causes a lot of those spouses when these men go to see you for this fantasy? Do you feel bad about that at all? >> I feel bad for it, but not in a guilt
01:17:22
Trent Hornway. Like, you know what I mean? Like I sympathize for them, but again >> to quote J to quote Jay Sherman the critic, how do you sleep at night on top of piles of money with many >> you know how I sleep at night is that
01:17:35
Farah Khalidilike prior to Only Fans exploding in popularity like I was someone who always had like a vehement role like I will not date a guy who watches pornography every friend, boyfriend, any person. >> Wait, you said that before OAF or when you started working? >> What
01:17:49
Farah Khalidiyou said you would not you would not date before OAF. You said you wouldn't date a guy. So before OAF, like I started my OAF around 23. I'm 26 now. Um so like before OAF, like I said, I was a virgin till I was 26. I had a rule and I would date a lot of Christian
01:18:02
Farah Khalidiconservatives as well cuz I liked guys who did value like pair bonding and stuff. Um I had a rule where I would not date a guy who watches pornography. And the entire culture says that's unrealistic. That's unreasonable. It's purely physical. It's uh meaningless.
01:18:15
Farah KhalidiWhatever. I'm not saying it is. But I'm saying I sleep at night knowing the only reason people started pearl clutching about porn use being a form of infidelity is once girls like me started turning a profit off of it. But before it they were very eager to say that's not cheating. It's purely physical. So
01:18:28
Farah Khalidinow people are like how do you sleep at night when you ruin marriages. I'm like we didn't talk we didn't say that to strippers even though the most frequent patrons of strip clubs are married. We didn't say that about like Hooters girls even though I always see like husbands there and stuff like that and their girlfriends have to sit in the cuck
01:18:41
Farah Khalidichair being okay with them like gawking another girl, right? Like we only do it when girls like me seem to like turn a profit off of it, turn clout off of it, right? But they had no problem with like again what 87% of guys watch porn every week, right? Like all these guys did it
01:18:54
Farah Khalidiand they told their girlfriend to look the other way. Like I do think I think your moral panic over it is more sincere since you're against it both ways. But I would you agree that most people suddenly only started caring about how
01:19:05
Trent Hornporn use affects relationships once only fans exploit? Because people people have been crusading against pornography for decades, including feminists, >> rads and tradition
01:19:18
Trent Hornconservatives. Sure. Because most people who are just of the world are degenerate. And so they'll make all kinds of uh rationalizations and inconsistent standards for themselves. And I'm I'm very big in calling it out
01:19:30
Trent Hornfor for everybody. Absolutely. But I think like the guys getting like mad I think the guys getting mad about you making a bunch of money or like some of these OF girls making a bunch of money.
01:19:40
Farah Khalidi>> I think that's 100% what it catches out to for most. Not for you because you've been doing it for a long time. >> Here's why they get mad when when they hear. >> No. >> Yes. >> No. Because when I find out JK Rowling
01:19:53
Trent Hornmade a billion dollars with Harry Potter, I'm not mad because I'm a Gryffindor and I have honor. Uh, but also uh I am like, "Oh, this really enriched the world. It really made people better. I dropped my phone like
01:20:05
Trent Horntwo hours ago. Now I can find it and keep it back up here. See the time?" Um, like I'm not mad that like Steve Jobs made a ton of money like making making an iPhone, like making stuff that like benefited the world. Um, I think these
01:20:17
Trent Hornguys get mad because deep down they are ashamed of what they do. It's a sign. No, let me finish and you can hop in. deep down to have to resort to paying
01:20:27
Trent Hornsome lady to do this fantas this fantasy that isn't real to do this to get sexual pleasure deep down they're they are ashamed it's why they don't publicly talk about it they don't publicly brag about it it's not it's not a hobby you
01:20:39
Trent Hornshare with other people they're ashamed of that seeing that like oh this person you know uh I have done something that I know is shameful and is deeply unmasculine and weak of me and they want
01:20:51
Trent Hornto lash out at the person they want to blame somebody for their deeply unmasculine pit they found themselves in. Much the same way like if you were using if a guy was using drugs and he uses drugs and he feels like crap
01:21:02
Trent Hornafterwards and then he sees his drug dealer drive by in a BMW. Like if you see if you see a regular guy with a BMW, yeah, some people are very envious. That happens. Um but but other people like
01:21:12
Trent Hornwell whatever he's working hard but I'm like this guy this guy made me feel like crap and I've been sucked into this and now he and now he's doing well. He's been able to do so well off of me feeling like crap. I think that's what a
01:21:25
Farah Khalidilot of these OF guys feel like. User subs. >> Okay. >> I think in general men only claimed victimhood to porn once again girls started turning a profit. Like they're literally like the women they caricaturize of conveniently crying
01:21:37
Farah Khalidigrape after a guy gets rich and famous and then like rescending consent after the fact because again prior to OF men didn't use this language and rhetoric of victimhood to describe their engagement with sex work. They literally like you go on forums and if women say, "Hey, I'm
01:21:50
Farah Khalidiuncomfortable with my fiance going to a strip club as a quote unquote bachelor party." People said, "Get over it. It's his last night of freedom." If it was the language of victimhood and they're so ashamed of it, why go engage with sex work? No. No. I know you agree, but I'm
01:22:01
Farah Khalidisaying that when it's literally a right of passage for men to engage with sex work before tying the knot that clearly it wasn't they go, "Oh, I'm ashamed. I'm really ashamed I have to do this. Clearly, it's something celebratory for them to engage with sex work." Would you agree? No, it it is shameful because
01:22:15
Farah Khalidinobody goes >> and they didn't see it. You agree? I You're saying it's shameful? Yes. Would you agree that they feel they feel it that way too >> when at their bachelor parties? No, they didn't >> because they because they that's but the
01:22:27
Trent Hornreason that it's only done at a bachelor party and not just like regular Thursday night hanging out is trying to create these elaborate rituals where you're allowed an excuse to do like a shameful
01:22:38
Trent Hornthing. Whereas just in general, if people's pornography stash is found, they tend to be highly embarrassed by it. But I think they don't get mad at like strippers because they because when a guy goes to a strip club's
01:22:50
Trent Hornbroke and getting beaten by a pimp and like me is more, >> the way they feel about it is like I feel like crap. Well, they feel like crap, too. So, we all feel like crap together. And they don't have anyone to
01:23:00
Trent Horneasily lash out at. So my feeling is just basically look um the idea of what you're saying well sex is your view of it with this self-actualization kind of
01:23:11
Trent Hornthing it it it robs sex of any of its intrinsic meaning. And so when it does that it just can't be an objectively meaningful thing to share with other people. If infidelity comes
01:23:23
Trent Horndown to just I feel like this is your position like well adultery is wrong because you make a promise to be monogamous and one ought not break their promises. I think that's kind of your position.
01:23:34
Farah Khalidi>> Yeah. I'm not anti- polyamory so long as it's not coerced like or you know I I am against it in the sense that some a lot of the times it's usually like men asking for it and I feel like the women will just go along with it. like one of
01:23:46
Farah Khalidimy good friends like she was dating a guy for 10 years planned to marry him and one day he like broke up with her and she was crying and he was like okay but then you need to let me like hook up with other women so she agreed so I think if it's done in that way I'm against it but let's say the woman like
01:23:59
Farah Khalidiagain you could like read into her brain and she genuinely wants it free from any type of desperation of thinking well he won't leave me or it mitigates his chances of cheating on me I'm not against polyamory so I'm just against adultery because it breaks that like
01:24:11
Trent Horncontract you made with each other not because I think sex is sacred right now Here's the problem because if sex is not sacred then the promise that promise becomes a a meaningless promise. Uh for
01:24:23
Trent Hornexample like if imagine if you got married to you know you got married to your husband right the guy you're going to get married to and he said okay now that we're married um you can never play
01:24:33
Trent Horntennis with anyone except me. Do you promise? You'd be like no that's an unreasonable promise. What are you talking about? Anyone who would say you can only do X with me is usually a sign of a possessive abusive person often.
01:24:46
Trent HornBut we make an exception for sex where it's not just it's okay. It's just patently obvious. That's the starting point everyone should agree with that we shouldn't change. And that only makes sense if sex is sacred, has that objective meaning.
01:24:59
Brian Atlas>> Oh, >> I I do have to uh let a chat come through and uh I want to redirect the convo here in just a moment. We have Ogle Ogle America fund donated $100.
01:25:12
SPEAKER_00>> Thank you, Ogle. Appreciate >> selfactualization is being the best version of oneself. >> Hang tight for >> anyway. Hide your dogs. Hide your male best friends. Also, I disagree with both
01:25:23
Brian Atlaspeople's views, but they're well matched, so this is a good debate. >> Ogle, thank you very much for your message there, guys. If you guys want to get a message in, $10 display, $100
01:25:34
Brian Atlasread. Ogle also gifted 50 whatever memberships to the uh whatever viewers here on YouTube. Thank you very much, Ogle. Guys, uh put a W in the chat for
01:25:45
Brian AtlasOgle there. Uh you said you wanted to use the restroom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you want to do it super quick. Uh and uh we have uh just so you
01:25:56
Brian Atlasknow, Caleb gifted five whatever memberships. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you guys. Uh, we have some chats coming up here. Uh, actually religious, thank you
01:26:08
Brian Atlasfor your super chat. Uh, BB the Aussie, thank you for your super chat. Appreciate it. And another one from the man. Uh, thank you for your soup chat
01:26:20
Brian Atlasthere. Appreciate it. Guys, if you're enjoying the stream and you'd like to see more debates, hit the like button. Like the video, guys, if you're enjoying this stream and you want to see more debates. Uh we're
01:26:32
Brian Atlasgoing to get right back into it with a prompt change here in just a moment as soon as she returns. And yeah, also guys, uh support us over
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Brian Atlasthere on Twitch. Twitch.tv/w whatever. Drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one. If you want to go ahead and uh pull it up. Yeah, there it is. twitch.tv/
01:26:53
Brian Atlaswhatever. Drop us a follow and a prime sub. Let me shout some of you guys out. We have Chris. Thank for the tier one. F uh Elix, thank for the prime. Trainee,
01:27:05
Brian Atlasthank for the prime. Avery Q&A, thank you for the prime. Uh Trent, I did want to uh I heard something you were saying earlier about uh I guess I could engage
01:27:16
Brian Atlasyou on this while Far is gone. M >> you said that uh you should never commit adultery to I don't know if you were to be paid a certain amount of money that money could go to save 300 people in Africa or some something along those
01:27:30
Brian Atlaslines. >> Yeah. We you shouldn't do evil that which is intrinsically evil. So good may come from it. Can I ask you is there any
01:27:37
Brian Atlascircumstance where could the the opposing thing that you are receiving be
01:27:45
Brian Atlassufficient enough to uh give an allowance to commit this evil act in this case adultery. So for example let's say it was to prevent a
01:27:57
Trent Hornnuclear holocaust under that circumstance could you commit adultery? No, because and but this will this will come. But here's the thing. This is a big clash between ethics.
01:28:09
Trent HornOkay. So, it's like one will be kind of more rule-based. Like there's things we ought to do and ought not do. >> Yeah. >> And another one will be consequentialism. It's just well, let's just do what has the best consequences.
01:28:21
Trent HornSo, you can create those examples where it's like, oh well, committing adultery will stop a nuclear holocaust. Therefore, we ought to do that. It doesn't take much to concoct a scenario where you just horrible. For example,
01:28:34
Trent Hornthere was a short story written by I believe it was Ursula Leguin back in the 70s. >> The one who leave behind Omalos. >> The ones who walk away from Omalos. Very good. And so um the story talks about
01:28:45
Trent Hornthis beautiful paradise of a place and everyone's happy and anything you want is there that will make you happy. It's a beautiful place to live. There's just one catch. There is a room with a
01:28:57
Trent Horndecrepit, malnourished six-year-old child in the dark who is constantly in fear and shuddering and shivering and suffering. The child's even lives in its own waste is scared of the mop in the
01:29:10
Trent Hornroom. >> And so Luin's story then says, you know, and this is but it's like thousands of people live in this village and they're all perfectly happy. It's a paradise. But she says, "And there's some there's
01:29:20
Trent Hornsome who walk away from Omalas who cannot stand that it's not worth it to them to have that happiness knowing that it's at the price of this evil." >> And the question then what it raises for
01:29:31
Trent Hornus as people, would you be a person who would live in Omalas? You're perfectly happy your whole life. You'll never suffer. Or would you walk away? >> I would walk away. >> Well, I' I'd love to be Rambo and rescue
01:29:44
Brian Atlasthe kid myself. Brian would stay. I I would stay. No. Are you serious? Are you >> Oh, no. She I was repeating what she said. >> I I wasn't >> Would you walk away? >> Uh, yeah. >> Good for you. >> Yeah. >> Good. We're making progress.
01:29:56
Trent Horn>> But like I was thinking more so >> I'd be rambling. I go rescue the guy. Don't worry. I'm getting you out of here. >> It's okay. But you wouldn't. Anyways, here I it's it's besides the point of >> No, but you give the examples, but but once again, like in any example, it's
01:30:09
Trent Hornlike what are you going to bite the bullet on? But for me like honestly as like a Christian when it comes to like at the end of the day we this life is not our only life. >> We have an unending life because we're
01:30:21
Trent Hornmade it in the image of God. We have immortal souls. And the question is in choosing to do good, we are always aligning ourselves with that which is the ultimate good. There's nothing in this life that can give us perfect happiness. Nothing. But if we choose to
01:30:34
Trent Hornalign ourselves with God who is that ultimate good, then we're ordered towards that here in the next life. And that's and that g and that is what given saints the ability to persevere horrible suffering without having to inflict evil on us.
01:30:46
Brian Atlas>> Well, I I I suppose a really quick simple question would be uh so maybe not like a worldwide global nuclear holocaust, but would you commit adultery
01:30:55
Brian Atlasto prevent like uh say the entirety of Europe from being uh nuked? >> Well, if I if I'm if I'm willing to let the the earth go, I'm pro I'm going to
01:31:06
Brian Atlaslet Europe go, too. They always they always they always scam me on a ketchup and a euro for ketchup. So even if this is the bathroom so but okay if it is the global nuclear holocaust and this include so everyone dies including you.
01:31:19
Trent Horn>> You wouldn't commit adultery under that circumstance. >> No I'm not going to I'm not going to murder babies. I'm not going to because then it becomes well would would you ex would it's like well this is the one that would be a fun one. Well, this will
01:31:30
Trent Hornreveal the monsters in the chat, but it's like, would you nuke Africa if the only choice was the whole world would be nuked? You know, would you nuke Europe if the only alternative is to save the whole world? You can concoct all these
01:31:42
Trent Hornscenarios. That's why for me it's just don't do evil. Don't commit intrinsically evil things. >> So, you wouldn't check out a woman in a bikini to save Europe because that's adultery. >> Europe will be fine. No, I'm not. No, I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I'm not
01:31:55
Brian AtlasI'm not going to do that. I am not going to sin. I am not going to sin. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. >> But the extension of that would be uh if you don't check out the woman, then all of Europe gets wiped out. >> Yeah. Now, here's the thing. If I were
01:32:08
Trent Hornto check out the woman, well, you can do that all you want. And then, but then the thing is, if the argument is you
01:32:15
Trent Hornshould do evil to prevent greater evil, >> then you're staying in omalos. >> I think it's a bit different. But what about this? Let's say you have
01:32:26
Trent Horn>> or what if they said hey Brian if you don't live here like actually everybody can't stay in omalus anymore like that that's the problem if you say if that's your principle of it's okay to do evil
01:32:36
Trent Hornas long as you prevent greater evil then you can do all like well like for this if if if it prevented if it prevented Europe from being nuked would you essay a woman
01:32:47
Brian Atlas>> I mean the the that's very uh >> oh now we've now we've got hesitations >> well because the optics of saying yes I would do that are obviously terrible and it's a disgusting thing that I would
01:32:58
Brian Atlasnever want to do. Um, so >> well, adultery you would just do anyway. Like what do you mean? >> Uh, adultery seems like like cheating on somebody seems like a lesser harm than
01:33:10
Brian Atlasessaying somebody. Um, but how about this Trent? Let's say you were in like World War II uh Germany or or Europe and uh the Gustapo comes knocking at your
01:33:21
Brian Atlasdoor and you are actually uh protecting like a Jewish family and they ask you a question. Are you harboring any uh enemies of the state uh this Jewish
01:33:32
Brian Atlasfamily in your you know >> basement or something and so you could lie which would be a sin, right? So would you >> well >> keep going the lying lying to the Nazi at the door? >> You would you lie to the Nazi at the
01:33:45
Trent Horndoor in that circumstance? >> I'd look him dead in the eye and say, "Yeah, I've got a whole family up in the attic. Get the [ __ ] out of here. What do you want?" Okay, sir. I wish I could I wish I could get away with just there. I would just be like, it's kind of like a
01:33:57
Trent Hornlie through a bluff. This is actually a big debate um a lot. Oh, and by the way, if people get mad like said naughty words are bad. No, I say don't be abusive to people. I don't mind curse words when the when the opportunity
01:34:08
Trent Hornpresents itself as justifiable. In moral theology, there are two debates on this actually. It's a debated question. There is a school of thought that says lying,
01:34:18
Trent Horn>> saying something that is not true is intrinsically evil. Okay? And so you may never do it. There is another school of thought that says it is not intrinsically evil. that if you were to
01:34:29
Trent Hornsay something that's not true, essentially what you're doing is you're causing damage to the person's beliefs. But you can cause damage to a person if it's for their greater good as a whole. So, for example, a surgeon can cause damage to your like let's say you have
01:34:43
Trent Hornan allergic reaction and you're choking to death. A surgeon could cut open your trachea to save your life. Yeah. >> Uh so here I'm causing damage to the Nazis beliefs to prevent him from committing um the evil of murder. So there I am not fully and this is a very
01:34:55
Trent Horncomplicated moral theology question. So, I'm not fully resolved on it, but in moral theology, those are the two. Another option you could also do is you could use mental reservations. You can
01:35:05
Trent Hornuse things that deceive but are not um not straight up lies, for example. But that's that that is so the example you give, it's a divided question in moral theology. >> Uh >> can I respond to what he was saying before I went to the bathroom because he said a lot of
01:35:18
Brian Atlas>> Let me uh I do have to redirect the convo here a little bit, but you have to >> I I have to I must. Uh, Farra, what are the uh aspects of feminism that you disagree with Trent on?
01:35:30
Farah Khalidi>> Okay. Can I first respond to the last thing he said? Because he said something >> what what was it? >> He was saying before I went to the bathroom that because it's reasonable to expect your partner to not have sex with other people, but not reasonable to
01:35:42
Farah Khalidiexpect your friend to not do whatever activity with your friends that implies uh signpost that sex is sacred and ought to be reserved for like marriage. Why don't we get to that later? Let's
01:35:54
Trent Horn>> Well, write it down. The question is infidel like when does polyamory become infidelity >> basically?
01:36:04
Trent Horn>> When it breaks the contract made. So like like it could be if it's like emotional. >> Yeah. Or or what um when is when is it okay to have sex with someone who's not your spouse? That's the question we disagree on. When is it okay if you're
01:36:17
Brian Atlasmarried? When is it okay to have sex with someone who's not your spouse? My answer is never. >> So yeah, >> never, never, never. >> We can uh come back to that a later, but for now I I guess this question is open
01:36:28
Brian Atlasto the both of you. What are the as aspects of feminism that uh you disagree with each other on? And perhaps Far you can go first on that.
01:36:41
Trent HornHonestly, I feel like I need to hear you guys first to like jog my brain of like >> Well, do you want do you want to put out some What are some examples of of feminist topics? You want to just throw some out there and see what we agree or disagree?
01:36:52
Brian Atlas>> Uh, well, >> I guess first, and I don't think we ever really did this. What is feminism? >> Sure. >> So, I guess what is even the definition of feminism? But I mean, in your opening statement, you laid out a whole bunch of
01:37:06
Brian Atlasthings. Uh, >> well, I guess how if you had to define if I could look at your your notes, I could prompt you on one of the things that you listed in your opening statement, but >> yeah, I mean this is more about like e
01:37:17
Brian Atlaslike sexual ethics and marriage and stuff, but my opening statements from here. >> Okay. >> To there. And >> well, here while I'm looking at that, do you guys want to uh flesh out the dis uh the definition of feminism?
01:37:31
Trent Horn>> There's a lot of definitions, but I'll I'll throw a few out there. throw out yours and then Far can give her hers. >> Yeah. Like I said, I don't uh ascribe that label to myself. So, it's it's just
01:37:42
Trent Hornit's kind of like for example, like I think that um people of color and white people have the same intrinsic dignity and should and racism is wrong. And so people white people should not racially
01:37:55
Trent Hornoppress people of color. People of color should not racially oppress white people, which we do see in some parts of the world, things in South Africa, things like that. Um, does that make me like a racialist? No, I just think they should be treated equally. Or I think children have very
01:38:08
Trent Hornbasic rights and dignity, but I'm not like a childist, you know? I just think we should not be bad to kids. But kids are different. We give them we treat them differently. So I like the definition from Marie Shear that was
01:38:19
Trent Hornoffered earlier. Feminism is a radical notion that women are people. A a common thing a lot of people will say, well feminism is opposition to patriarchy. So
01:38:27
Trent Hornfeminism is opposition to male rules and social standards and things like that. And though honestly as a Christian I I do believe in some forms of patriarchy.
01:38:39
Trent HornLike I think that in a marriage a husband should lead. I think there has to be a leader in the marriage. But I don't think the wife is bound to do anything he says whether it's evil or irrational but he has a duty to lead in
01:38:50
Trent Hornthe marriage and she should be be obedient to that within reason. Uh so I think that there's some forms like is opposition to patriarchy. It's like then you got to define what patriarchy is and that opens a whole other can of worms.
01:39:02
Trent HornSo those are two ways often defined as the rights of women or opposition to patriarchy. But then it's like well we have to define patriarchy cuz there are some versions that like people can agree with or not agree with. My favorite version my favorite definition of
01:39:14
Trent Hornfeminism is the joke one. It's uh men and women are equal but women are better. uh which would be an example of really bad feminism that's actually misanthropy that's actually just
01:39:26
Trent Hornmanhatred which is common among many people who identify as feminists just like people who identify as men's rights activists there's a fair number of them who are just they are misogynist they like they say they they hate women they really don't like women
01:39:38
Trent Horn>> misandry I think misanthropy is like >> that's humanity sorry misandress yeah they hate mensanthropy is >> hating humans >> hating every which is a more acceptable thing I think who was it Somebody did a
01:39:49
Trent Horna joke about this. They said like, you know, if somebody says, "Oh, I hate black people." It's like, "What's wrong with you?" But if you're like, "Oh, I hate men." No, if you're like, but if you're like, "Oh, I hate people." It's like, you're telling me.
01:40:00
Farah Khalidi>> Far, do you think uh women are better than men? >> You would have to give like a specific category. I think >> women tend to be more empathetic. I
01:40:11
Farah Khalididon't even know if that's necessarily hardwired. I don't think that's like, you know, it's necessary to discuss whether it is, but I think like when it comes to often times morality, I think
01:40:22
Farah Khalidiwomen can often be morally better. I don't think that gives them more human worth though. So when you say are women better, I would say they do better things, but are they better categorically?
01:40:34
Trent Horn>> Yeah, that's that's like asking is New York near we'd be like near what? So it's like asking are women better? >> That's like reading my opening statement. That was what >> well came up with. >> No, it was it was in respect
01:40:47
Trent Horn>> like like I'd answer like I'd answer that like I think men and women are are they are better at certain traits activities in just different ways. Like women tend to be better at linguistic
01:40:58
Trent Horntasks and multitasking and men tend to have better spatial reasoning. Uh which is why my wife will ask me what did you guys talk about at the party and I'm like I don't remember but I but I can like nail you know video games and
01:41:11
Trent Horndriving. Being you mean being good? Yes. >> Moral? Yes. No. Men, men and women because they're each made and this is actually why I love being Christian is that as a Christian since we believe all
01:41:23
Trent Hornpeople are made in the image and likeness of God, we categorically reject any kind of sexism or racism that says a group of people are morally inferior. Because what makes us all moral is that
01:41:34
Trent Hornwe equally possess the image of God. And so now if you don't believe that, you might believe that certain humans are morally superior uh to others. But no,
01:41:44
Trent Hornas a Christian, as a Catholic, I I firmly reject racism, sexism, and if you look at the history of the Catholic Church, there's probably more canonized female saints than male saints. H well
01:41:55
Brian Atlasone of the things in Far's opening is she says frankly I str she does I struggle to see how men on mass respect the women theyo supposedly claim to their girlfriends wives and the mothers
01:42:07
Brian Atlasof their children because despite an increasingly invogue anti-feminist zeitgeist I don't believe Farah doesn't believe that sex grounded in love or marriage is inherently more respectful
01:42:18
Brian Atlasor self-actualizing for women than sex grounded in lust or transaction We can get into like that specific complaint. >> That's I think that's the saddest that's the saddest thing I heard. That's the saddest thing.
01:42:31
Brian Atlas>> Flush out my argument for it. >> It's you already you fleshed it out more and it was even sadder. >> Further she I mean another point she makes uh your husband is the man in your
01:42:39
Brian Atlaslife most likely to uh essay you rape you. Now is this is there a statistic on this or >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Oh, sorry. I don't have like the
01:42:51
Brian Atlasright on me. I can look it up. >> Yeah. In in the paragraph or in parenthesis right next to it, you say stats. >> So the person most likely to rape. >> Is this like based off the US or is this
01:43:03
Trent Horn>> No, I mean the way you're you could be phrasing it like this, which I think is a disingenuous way to phrase it. It's like telling a child, "Hey man, parents suck. Did you know that parents are the ones who are most likely to abuse you?"
01:43:16
Trent Horn>> Mhm. Yeah, that's probably true because parents spend the most time with kids, but parents in principle are awesome. And like the love thing like let me get No, let me get No, I got to ask you a
01:43:27
Trent Hornquestion. I ask you a question. Here's another statement. Is a parent loving their child because they just authentically will the good for this child and want to sacrifice and they
01:43:39
Trent Hornjust care and cherish and love this child. So they care for the child for that reason. Is that morally superior to someone who cares for a child because they want a paycheck?
01:43:51
Farah Khalidi>> Yes. So to be clear, when I'm saying love in this, I maybe I should have been more clear. I'm specifically talking about romantic love. I'm not talking for instance about like I love my best friend. So I'm specifically talking about like romantic marital love. So
01:44:03
Farah Khalidiobviously when I say things like >> loving grape like is the type that tends to be more protected by law enforcement. Like the obvious like justosition is supposed to be like loving as in like >> how do you define how do you define? because I don't divide it this way. What do you think love is?
01:44:17
Farah Khalidi>> Well, kind of like what you were saying earlier of like how the difference between romantic love and friendship love. Romantic love, possessiveness is more of a feature in it. Like you even admitted like before, you know, you know, before we pivoted topics that it
01:44:29
Farah Khalidiwould make sense, it's congruent with romantic love to forbid your partner, for instance, from like hooking up with other people. It's not a feature of platonic love to forbid your friend from befriending other friends. So it is more of a feature of specifically romantic
01:44:40
Farah Khalidilove than platonic love for it to be >> we need to go to the basement though but you were saying why split up the types of love but even you split it up by going romantic love by nature or ideally should be more exclusive than platonic
01:44:53
Trent Hornlove right so you would also split >> love has a core concept and it's going to be manifested in different ways it's also hard because we only have one word for love in other languages they have multiple words so in Greek there's at
01:45:05
Trent Hornleast four words for love so you have aeros romantic love stolios the love of friendship and then you have one the highest of them agape which is just self-sacrificial love the love when you
01:45:17
Trent Hornwould just give your life for a friend or even for for like a stranger so the base the core concept of love I would say is love is putting uh willing the
01:45:27
Trent Horngood for another to love someone is to will their good and another way I could phrase this love is when you put other people's 's needs ahead of your wants.
01:45:39
Trent HornUh and so for me, the opposite of love then is not hate. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love >> is selfishness >> is used because instead of putting other
01:45:50
Trent Hornpeople's needs ahead of your wants, you are putting other people's wants. Sorry, you're putting your wants ahead of other people's needs. So when a guy wants to
01:46:00
Trent Hornbe sexually aroused by you when he goes to your OAF, he's put he is unloving towards his wife because he puts that want ahead of her need to have monogamy and know that he only cherishes her and
01:46:13
Brian Atlasso it's unloving for him to do that. >> Mhm. >> Uh Trent, what about this? Um, do you think that feminism because I I know you guys wanted to talk, you know,
01:46:23
Brian Atlasmostly about sex work, but do you think feminism contributes to sex work in the sense that uh, as you know, we've seen feminism uh, increase, we've also seen sex work
01:46:36
Trent Hornincrease. Your thoughts there? >> It depends. There's a debate, there has been a debate among feminists really since like the 1970s about this question and prostitution. Uh so you know
01:46:47
Trent Hornfeminists will say look women should not be treated like objects. Women should you know women should be valued just as much as men are valued. And so I think it's a compelling argument that the
01:46:58
Trent Hornbetter form of feminism would say well men to make ends meet don't have to go and sell their bodies like this. They don't have to be consumed as objects in this way. In many cases men monetize
01:47:11
Trent Hornwomen who do this. Even the men who run only fans monetize 20% of what you make in order to they they've just found a nice cleaner way to get a cut off of it. Andrew Tate did that with like cam girls
01:47:21
Trent Hornand stuff uh which is you know deplorable. Um so there there have been feminists who say well some will say like the ranch feminists will say yeah women can you know own their bodies do whatever you want to hell with anybody.
01:47:34
Trent HornUh but many others will say look the the the the reality is there's some people and I think you'll see you you're going to admit this is only fans there's there's what like oh gosh like 06% of the platform makes like 80% of the
01:47:47
Trent Hornmoney or something. The average the average woman on there makes like $130 a month. >> Yeah. >> If she's real, you know, and that's sim and we see that like with Patreon. That's similar like like I have a Patreon. It does decent well to have Council of Trend. A lot of people will
01:48:01
Trent Hornstart a Patreon. and they might only make a h 100red bucks and that sucks but at least they don't have naked pictures of them on the internet forever which I think is definitely you know not worth anything especially $100. >> So I would advise women for the most
01:48:13
Farah Khalidipart not to start only they shouldn't but not with a moral weight behind it. I think they shouldn't in the sense of like pragmatically like you pointed out it's unlikely they're going to fleece a profit unless they're already like a notable like Tik Tocker, Twitch star,
01:48:24
Farah Khalidietc. whatever it is. Um and they are going to set themselves up to potentially be like disqualified from a lot of jobs. Again, that doesn't speak to like the morality of it. I still just advise they shouldn't. >> Oh, on the sex work thing though, there are um there are feminists who have
01:48:38
Trent Hornargued, well, we should keep Well, I like prostitution. I hate the idea of calling it sex work because if it were work, like we'd say, oh, OSHA regulations say you have to wear all this stuff to prevent fluids getting on
01:48:48
Trent Hornyou. And, you know, we don't really treat it like work. It's it's >> it's not it's not if you can do it if you can do it unconscious, it's not work. >> Yeah. And we're both against that. Like same way like if if you're having sex with your wife while she's passed out
01:49:01
Trent Hornlike the story I gave you of Randy >> that's also rape. Sure. No doubt. >> So I don't know why we're using >> because in many cases prostitution can be done even when people are semi-conscious when they're on drugs and they do that because most people it's
01:49:13
Trent Hornnot a glamorous thing around the world. Most people engage in in prostitution to avoid things like starvation. And so it's it is it is right for exploitation and use of people. And so feminists will
01:49:26
Trent Hornsay, Brian, they say, "Well, you know what? If we um we can we can regulate, we don't, you know, this it's going to happen anyways, legal or illegal." But then other feminists have argued, well, you could do the Nordic model. So like
01:49:37
Trent Hornin um uh Sweden, for example, since 1995, it has been illegal to buy sex, but not illegal to sell it. Because the worry is if you crack down on it, you just arrest these women. They end up back in the system, yada yada.
01:49:49
Trent Horn>> But they've done it where, okay, we're just going to arrest the buyers, not the sellers. and the women aren't driven underground and we've reduced the rates and there had there was only like one prostitute murdered by some abusive
01:50:01
Trent Hornboyfriend there whereas in like New Zealand and Germany where it's legal you have far more murders of prostitutes. So I would say that yeah Brian there are feminists who push for it and they're totally off base thinking this kind of
01:50:14
Trent Hornstuff is empowering when oh well there was a study that was done by Yong Cho at all in 2013 that says when you legalize prostitution sex trafficking increases. They looked at 150 countries and the
01:50:25
Trent Hornreason for that is yeah if you legalize prostitution like the rapists and creepy guys go to these people but there's not enough prostitutes to meet the need. >> So there's not enough people who say when I grow up I want to be a prostitute.
01:50:38
Brian Atlas>> There's not enough people to fill that need. So you traffic them from other places. When it becomes legal need goes up >> and there's not enough to fill it. You got to traffic people in. >> Bad news. Well, perhaps I could ask this uh going back to kind of the original
01:50:51
Brian Atlasprompt change I wanted to do, which is your disagreements on feminism. Uh Far, you're a feminist, right? Uh do you believe that feminism is propagating anti-male sentiment?
01:51:07
Brian Atlas>> Probably, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. >> You hold on. You don't think it's a bad thing that uh feminism is would you say that uh whatever we would perhaps call
01:51:18
Brian Atlasthe opposing side if it was propagating anti-female anti-woman >> red pill it's it's to me >> I don't think red pill is >> No no no I I let me go ahead ask your thoughts let me uh would you say that whatever the other side however you
01:51:32
Brian Atlaswould label the other side whatever it is whether it's conservatives whether it's red pill uh men's rights advocates whatever uh would you say that propagating anti-h female anti-woman
01:51:44
Farah Khalidisentiment is bad. >> It depends on the type of sentiments. Like that's too much of a blanket statement. Like usually when red pill and anti-feminists propagate like anti-female sentiments, it's usually like just a just a heart like a hatred towards women for being women, for not
01:51:57
Farah Khalidichoosing them in the sexual marketplace for thinking that they're like u like naturally incompetent, that they're less intelligent, that they ought to be sex slaves of men. Usually when feminists for instance like uh get mad at or or
01:52:08
Farah Khalidilike purport like anti-male sentiments, usually it's stuff like anti-exual violence, anti- sexism, they're against like things like white nationalism. They're against things like the male loneliness discourse pretty much promoting like an entitlement towards,
01:52:20
Brian Atlasyou know, women's bodies in the dating marketplace. So, it depends on the type of anti- sentiment, right? >> Well, I don't know if that's a fair characterization. It seems like you're
01:52:28
Brian Atlasperhaps either uh you're exaggerating or even fabricating some of the uh some of the as far as what you would categorize
01:52:38
Brian Atlasas anti-woman sentiment and you're omitting and downplaying the anti-male sentiment that you see from the feminist side. But >> well, just think of the common insults from both sides. The common insult from
01:52:50
Farah Khalidilike um like a red pill side is like dishwasher roasty things like that. Roasty. you're making fun of her genital regions for being like unesthetic or being like quote unquote ran through. So, it's very much like reducing women
01:53:02
Farah Khalidito their genitals and saying like you're ran through. It's telling women things like be wary of the clock. You're going to hit the wall. It's already telling women each day that goes by, you are losing value as a human being. That's obviously more vitriolic than a woman saying, "Hey, masculinity could be toxic
01:53:15
Trent Hornand adversive towards us as women and even you as men." Well, how are those even the analog the analog to roast is when women tell men they got small penises.
01:53:26
Farah Khalidi>> Yes. Hold on. This is like the go-to attack for for men. >> The most common insult women say towards men is things like insults, which mean like, haha, you can't get laid. That's nowhere near as vitriolic. And usually it's in retaliation to a guy like
01:53:39
Farah Khalidipromoting like saying something sexist first. Women don't go out of their way to just call guys incelss. Usually it's like they say something misogynistic and a woman replies and goes, "You're an incel." versus guys will just comment on like you know streams of girls like you
01:53:50
Brian Atlasknow on Twitch streams and just be like roasty 304 dishwasher like it's it's so like um you know it comes out of nowhere it's unprompted >> I think you could say make that sort same sort of application towards feminists and you reference like the
01:54:03
Brian Atlasgenitalia for example I mean the go-to insult for for feminists or even women who aren't feminists is references to penis size or penises or small dig >> but it's retaliatory
01:54:14
Farah Khalidi>> they comment it like have you ever seen a woman call a man an incel or say small dick energy if it wasn't in response to him saying something sexist versus you see men calling women dishwashers, roasties, 304s if they're just living
01:54:26
Brian Atlastheir life out partying. They they that's like that's most the time they're saying. >> So you think anti-male sentiment only >> they're saying look she hit the wall. >> You think anti-male sentiment only
01:54:35
Brian Atlasmanifests in reaction to some sort of grievance per uh done by men whereas Yeah. Whereas uh anti-male sentiment that uh uh
01:54:49
Farah Khalidi>> wait hold >> no she's saying she's saying anti-male is justified anti-female is >> I said it's retaliatory I said it's retaliatory justified is different justified is saying like is this productive constructive that's a different question I'm just saying it's
01:55:01
Farah Khalidiretaliatory >> like women aren't just going out there calling men like can you genuinely envision a woman replying to a stream of a guy just living his life out clubbing and going insel Maldic energy. No, it's
01:55:13
Farah Khalidiusually first when he does something sexist or you know what I mean, it's associated with those like sexist subcultures versus like guys will just comment dishwasher girls just like dancing at a club and be like 304. This is why women don't deserve rights,
01:55:25
Brian Atlasfatherless behavior like it comes out of nowhere. It's just for women for living a like a lifestyle. >> We can see the same sort of uh sentiment displayed by women or feminists for example. I see feminists on TikTok
01:55:37
Brian Atlastaking videos seeing men who are at the club who are just I don't know there's this new criticism of men who are like occupying the bar space or men who are uh occupying they're like I don't know
01:55:48
Brian Atlasthe men are up on some platform or something and just by virtue of men existing women will say wow men used to go to war and now so in essence saying men are only useful >> there's bad men and there's bad women we
01:56:00
Farah Khalididon't >> men are only useful if they're canon >> those are also like so comedic like when women take um it's only comedic when they take videos of like a church and they go men used to build this now they just cheat on you and lie like again that's so much more benign and playful
01:56:13
Trent Hornthan just comment I want no I want to ask you brought up roasty ran through >> no hold on you brought up something though that I don't I think it can be like misogynistic or mean-spirited towards women but also women might take
01:56:24
Trent Hornit the wrong way and it's not meant to be and that's when men bring up the issue of biological clock hitting the wall um so I agree with you and I actually covered this in an episode that like when people do the like the like
01:56:37
Trent Hornwhen people show pictures of Pamela Anderson or Kristen Dunst. Okay. So, I don't know if you ever, you know, Pamela Anderson was like Baywatch back in the '9s. Kirsten Dun, bring it on. Highly underrated classic. Uh, one the wife
01:56:49
Trent Hornenjoys a lot. Uh, fun movie. And of course, Kirsten Dunce now in 2026 does not look like Kirsten Dunce in a cheerleader movie in 2001. She and she hasn't gotten plastic surgery and you
01:57:01
Trent Hornknow and then people show pictures of her and they're like hit the wall. Oh, and I'm like she got old. >> That happens to people. That's not a big deal. I agree with you that that is
01:57:12
Trent Hornmean-spirited and and misogynistic. On the other hand though, >> I believe I genuinely do worry about women who are told through feminism, you can have it all. You can have a career.
01:57:24
Trent HornYou can be successful. and look, here's this celebrity that had kids when they were 43, and you can do that, too. To me, I would say that is like telling someone, "Oh, you can drop out of high school and make the NFL draft. This guy
01:57:36
Trent Horndid it. You can drop out of high school and, you know, drop out of college and start Facebook, this company. This person did it." Yeah, but it's a long shot. And you and if you're betting on frozen eggs and frozen embryos and
01:57:47
Trent Hornfertility in your late 30s or 40s, there are a lot of women who realize, "I made a horrible bet and now it's permanent cost. They'll never have kids." And to just merely say, "Hey, do you recognize
01:58:00
Farah Khalidithis hazard in front of you?" I would say that that is not misogynistic. Just to point that out. >> I would agree. I would say 99.99% of the time people use the phrase the like beary of the clock or hitting the wall.
01:58:12
Farah KhalidiIt's being used in a misogynist. >> Well, if it's used on the internet or also, by the way, they're always talking about looks. They're not really talking about fertility. They're saying like like, you know, the wall always happens. They're trying to say like it's it's this like revenge fantasy where it says,
01:58:24
Farah Khalidi"By the way, your sexual and romantic options are going to dry up and we're like waiting to ru the day." Has nothing to do with their fertility when people say that like hitting the wall in itself is such like a vile statement. >> It is, but it's but it's not. >> I'm saying that's always how these
01:58:37
Trent Hornpeople use it. >> And I think >> women should know for instance like Yeah. the risks of, you know, saying they're going to freeze their eggs and all these things for sure. >> But not even that, like just finding a romantic partner. And would you agree
01:58:48
Trent Hornthough that somebody who delays choosing like who delays choosing marriage, for example, to like their mid30s or late 30s that the the romantic options for
01:59:00
Trent Hornthem are going to be a lot more limited because the men their age might prefer to date someone younger or the men like the men that they would have d I don't Is is your fiance around your age?