Andrew Wilson vs. Naima From Jubilee (Feminist, Leftist, Anti-Trump) | Whatever Debates #20
Date: 2025-05-20
Duration: 3h 48m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Naima (Jubilee)(guest)
SPEAKER_05Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:01:36
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Naima (USC senior). Topic: feminism.
01:13:30
Key MomentAndrew fully articulates Force Doctrine
01:43:48
Key MomentNaima: men have no obligation to enforce women's rights. Andrew claims full Force Doctrine concession.
01:43:54
QuoteAndrew walks away to smoke — Naima thinks it's rage quit, he says it's standard break
02:19:42
Key MomentOlive jar challenge: neither can open greasy olive jar. Crew member Jake opens it.
02:34:54
Key MomentBrian fact-checks Trail of Tears: ~4-6K deaths, not millions as Naima claimed
Topics Discussed
00:10:09
Force Doctrine
Andrew's core argument: men monopolize force, women must appeal to men for rights.
00:10:10
Voting Rights/Limited Democracy
Andrew argues for limited democracy. Naima defends universal suffrage.
01:17:30
Bodily Autonomy
Whether inherent rights exist or all rights are force-enforced privileges.
02:14:00
Feminism Outcomes
Andrew: feminism caused no-fault divorce, single motherhood, declining birth rates.
02:34:00
Colonization Debate
Trail of Tears fact-checked: ~4-6K Cherokee, not millions.
03:19:00
Sex-Segregated Schools
Andrew proposes 2-hour school days. Naima calls it segregationist.
Transcript
Page 3 of 4
01:57:36
Naima (Jubilee)identify. You see how that works? Yeah, I see how that works. Do you Do you Here's what I'm trying to say. You're so emotional. Calm down. Answer the question. Answer the question. Answer the question. Are you trying to upset me? Answer the question. It's not
01:57:48
Andrew Wilsonworking, baby. I don't know. It looks like it's Looks like it's working. It's really not. It looks like it is. It's really not. Yeah. So, is a woman who is a Satanist and a prostitute a satanic [ __ ] Yes. No, the question directly. Thank you. So then I was right. And it's
01:58:01
Naima (Jubilee)funny because you just said you don't call women [ __ ] and then you just called her a [ __ ] But no, I make descriptive statements on what is a [ __ ] Ask a question. I don't think it was right. make a descriptive statement a ridiculous amount of money to ask me a question and I would like to answer it.
01:58:13
Naima (Jubilee)I can't wait to hear it. Okay. To be honest with you, Andrew, I think you debate in bad faith. The whole concept of I'm trying to dominate my opponent is not necessarily the way to debate. If you're trying to reach a common ground
01:58:26
Andrew Wilsonand create a mutual consensus, that is a bad faith debate. I literally just entire worldview to be up for internal critique. I didn't even push
01:58:37
Andrew Wilsonback once and you still came to my conclusion without me pushing back at all. That is the epitome of good faith. We haven't gotten to your conclusion, Andrew. We did. You agreed that men have
01:58:48
Andrew Wilsonno obligation to enforce male privilege after saying you descriptively agree with force doctrine. But men also That's it. Done. Okay. But men also have no obligation to enforce their own rights.
01:58:58
Naima (Jubilee)Great. So me like how do you create a society in which all rights and all privileges are based specifically on force? To me that sounds like you already descriptively agreed and
01:59:10
Andrew Wilsonconceded that point but I'd like to move into feminism whenever you're ready. I do not concede that point. I mean you did but we have we have other topics to move into specifically your feminist view. And since I stayed up to internal
01:59:22
Naima (Jubilee)critique it is now your turn for your view. Okie dokie. I fundamentally I mean I just don't think it's morally correct to say you do not deserve rights unless you What do you base your morality on? I
01:59:33
Naima (Jubilee)base my morality on like basic concepts of ethics. Contian morality. Rouso's philosophy of ethics. I think that so contean ethics you're a universalist ethicist. You're a deontologist. No, I wouldn't say honestly. I feel like
01:59:46
Naima (Jubilee)neither consequentialism nor deontological ethics like fully encount. So you're a threshold deontologist. I don't know. I think there's merit to both arguments. Okay. Okay. So what do you base your morality on? I think I
01:59:57
Naima (Jubilee)base my morality on physically how you are impacting other people. If you are hurting that would be consequences. Sure. But intent does play kind of a part in consequence. That would be consequences as well. So if I have the intent to do good things and bad things
02:00:10
Andrew Wilsonhappen to you, you'd say I shouldn't do be doing those good things to you, right? No. That's why I'm saying I think that there's a gray area between consequentialism and deontology. So threshold deontology. So okay, great. So you're a threshold deontologist. Can you
02:00:22
Andrew Wilsontell me what you base that on other than your own personal perspective? Do you not believe that it's immoral? It's not my turn to answer questions. Your turn for the internal critique. I just Well, I believe it's immoral to hurt other people. It is inherently wrong to hurt
02:00:35
Andrew Wilsonothers. And what makes it inherently wrong? Well, hurting other people is not You think that's good? That's just you making the claim and then make you're it's called question begging. It's a question begging fallacy. When you you're questioning you continue to add,
02:00:47
Naima (Jubilee)do you even know what question begging means? What does it mean? Oh my god. What does it mean? You're trying to catch me in a logical I'm answering. You're trying to catch me in a logical fallacy. That's
02:00:58
Andrew Wilsonnot answering. What does it mean? Question begging. You're trying to catch your opponent. What does it mean? It doesn't mean you're trying to catch your opponent. That's not what question begging means. Will you will you let me
02:01:10
Naima (Jubilee)finish? Yeah. Okay. What's it mean? You're trying to catch your opponent in a logical fallacy by asking them questions that inherently create a dissonance. What the [ __ ] are you talking about? That is not what the
02:01:23
Andrew Wilsonquestion begging fallacy is. So then how do you define it? When I It's not a definitional thing. It's a facious thing. When I ask you, is this inherent? You say, listen, it's inherent because it's inherent. It's inherent because
02:01:35
Andrew Wilsonit's inherent. That's not what I said. Great. What makes it inherent? What makes your morals inherent? What makes not hurting somebody else being bad inherent? You don't think that hurting other people That's asking me a question, not
02:01:47
Andrew Wilsonanswering it. What makes hurting other people bad inherent? Inherently, you are denying them the right to their bodily but what makes that bad? It's bad because it's hurting them. Hurting but what makes that bad? You don't think
02:02:00
Andrew Wilsonthat hurting something? That's asking me a question, not answering it. It's bad because it's immoral. It's bad because it's bad. Now you have done a circular facious argument. What is bad? This
02:02:12
Andrew Wilsonthing over here that's bad. What makes it bad? The fact that it's bad. Why is it bad? Cuz it's bad. Is that why it's bad? Is it bad because it's bad? Because it's bad. It is inherently wrong to hurt other people. Yeah. What makes it
02:02:24
Naima (Jubilee)inherently wrong to hurt other people? It is inherently wrong to hurt other people because you are denying them their free will. You are causing them physical pain and you are participating and exacerbating in suffrage suffering.
02:02:36
Andrew WilsonWhat makes that bad though? You don't think that causing other people to asking me a question, asking me what makes it bad doesn't describe for me what makes it bad. Hurting someone is bad because because you are denying them
02:02:48
Andrew Wilsontheir right to but what makes that part bad and perpetuating suffering. But what makes that part bad? You don't think that suffering is bad? No, that has nothing to do with what I think it does have. Here's what here's here's how this
02:03:00
Andrew Wilsonconversation is going. Just so you know, I'm like, is eating candy bars bad? And you're like, it's bad. say, "What makes candy eating candy bars bad?" And you say, "Well, because it's unhealthy for you." And I say, "But why is being unhealthy bad?" And you say, "Cuz eating candy bars is bad." You are causing
02:03:13
Naima (Jubilee)physical harm. Okay? You are disrupting society. So eating a donut is immoral? I'm not talking about candy bars immoral. Is eating a donut immoral. Is eating a donut immoral? No. Because you're not causing a physical harm to
02:03:25
Naima (Jubilee)causing physical harm to someone else. It is an exercise. So is making donuts immoral? No. But you're even if people are going to eat them and it causes them harm. But eating one doughnut is not going to cause someone physical harm. If
02:03:36
Naima (Jubilee)you eat a doughnut in excess, then that causes someone physical harm. But that is not something that you are policing. If you make donuts and then force someone to buy and eat 10 donuts in front of you, then that would be causing a physical harm. When you say the word
02:03:47
Andrew Wilsoninherently, what you mean is something which is like based inside the human experience. What do you mean by inherently? I mean on an instinctual level, does it not hurt someone to cause harm? Although of course there are
02:04:00
Naima (Jubilee)people I'm just asking sociopath. What do you mean by inherently? I mean inherently as in on a very basic it is a fact. Inherent fact in inherently it
02:04:09
Andrew Wilsonmeans it's a fact. I'm just saying inherently as in it is implicit throughout every culture. Well not every culture but like it's implicit. Okay.
02:04:20
Andrew WilsonInherently means implicit. So it's so it means always like always something. It's inherent. It's like always this thing. Is that what that means? I'm getting confused. What the [ __ ] are you talking about? I'm asking you what inherently
02:04:32
Andrew Wilsonmeans. Why don't we just Google it? Why? I'm not I'm actually okay with you if you want to Google the definition of inherent. Yeah, Brian can pull it up. I'm not trying to get a a got you on the definition. I just want the definition.
02:04:43
Brian AtlasOkay. Yeah, then let's pull it up. Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or character characteristic. That's what I said. I said always. So, I just want to make sure. Hang on. Existing. Read the rest of it. There's a
02:04:55
Brian Atlasfew others. Do you want just the first one's fine? Okay. existing in something as a permanent essential or characteristic attribute. So it is a permanent
02:05:05
Naima (Jubilee)attribute from your view that hurting somebody else is bad. Yes. Why? Because you are causing them physical harm which is a disruption to a disruption to
02:05:17
Naima (Jubilee)social order. Why is that bad though? Well, because you would have no social order. we would not be able to progress as a society and physical harm is painful. You are causing someone pain.
02:05:29
Andrew WilsonIt is bad to cause someone pain. I think that's but you just keep do you understand like what you keep saying is it's bad because it's bad. Well, it's causing it's bad because it's bad. You
02:05:40
Andrew Wilsonare taking something away from someone which is their physical like just capability. So if if it were the case that most of society most of society
02:05:51
Andrew Wilsonbelieved that enslavement was fine because it was inherent that some people were allowed to own other people. Would that be bad? But that's not an inherent
02:06:01
Naima (Jubilee)truth. Well, what makes physically hurting someone else an inherent truth? Physically hurting someone else is an inherent truth because you are denying them bodily autonomy and the ability to
02:06:14
Naima (Jubilee)control what happens to their body. and you were causing a net negative to that person. Yeah. But you haven't actually told me why that part of that is bad though. Causing a net negative to others
02:06:24
Naima (Jubilee)is bad on every single moral. Like as a Christian, you should know why c hurting other people is bad. I know why Christians think so. I don't know why you think so. I think so. Because again, you're robbing them of their bodily
02:06:36
Andrew Wilsonautonomy. Yeah. But you don't tell me why that's actually bad. So you start, this is what makes it question begging. You start with the assumption as the conclusion. You start with the premise
02:06:46
Naima (Jubilee)as a conclusion. Hurting people is bad because it's bad to hurt people. Yes, that's your position. No, I'm saying hurting people is bad because you are robbing them of their physical autonomy
02:06:57
Andrew Wilsonand you are creating a ne negative to another person. So, if you could hurt people collectively in some way and it causes good outcomes, would that be bad? Yes. Well, then you just negated what
02:07:09
Naima (Jubilee)makes it bad. Well, that's because I'm not a consequentialist. Then why are you making the claim that this is bad if even the good results are still bad? But it's not a good result if you are hurting people at a net
02:07:20
Naima (Jubilee)negative. If it is a net negative, then it is not good. If hurting people Uhhuh. is a universal net negative to those people. Yeah. And the more people you
02:07:31
Naima (Jubilee)hurt, the more negative it is. Yeah. Then hurting people in that instance is also bad. What makes it a net negative though? Physically harming someone is negative
02:07:42
Naima (Jubilee)to them. You are causing pain which is a negative to them. Okay. And do you agree that there are some groups who maybe have negative outlooks that you need to cause pain to? If they are hurting other
02:07:54
Naima (Jubilee)people and the negative of those people is outweighing the negative of hurting them then potentially. I mean what if they just refuse to comply? But that's
02:08:02
Naima (Jubilee)why like going back to the force theory, that's why force is used in some situations to control others. Mhm. And
02:08:12
Naima (Jubilee)it is used immorally when it is not controlling someone who is comp who is putting a net negative. I want to tell you about a little island called Papa New Guinea. Oh god. On this little
02:08:24
Andrew Wilsonisland called Papa New Guinea, uh there's a tribe called the [ __ ] warriors of Papa New Guinea. You might think I'm making this up. if I'm not. No, I feel like I've heard of this before. This isolated tribe in Papa New
02:08:35
Andrew WilsonGuinea, what they enjoy doing is um well, they have the the Yets of the tribe, the younglings. Yeah. Um who are
02:08:45
Andrew Wilsonmale go over and blow all of the adults essentially the YTS. They go over and like service them, let's say. Okay. That's what they do. Yeah. However, when
02:08:56
Andrew Wilsonpsychologists go and look at this, the kids there actually demand to do this because it's a part of their culture. Now, me as a Christian, I would say
02:09:05
Andrew Wilsonthat's inherently bad, right? Why would you what what basis could you have to justify if there's no negative outcome, which is what you're saying bad is? If there's no negative outcome, well,
02:09:18
Naima (Jubilee)there is a negative outcome. They're demanding to do it. Yeah. But psychologically, pedophilia does have an inherently negative outcome. PDF, let's say PDF, right? But on top of that, right, even when you say that, the
02:09:30
Andrew Wilsonpsychologist said that they were demanding to do this. It's part of their cultural right. They're demanding it. They don't want to not be adults in the culture. Me as a Christian, I would go in there and
02:09:42
Andrew Wilsonput an end into that [ __ ] [ __ ] in one second. I would put bring my military in there and I would kick them on the [ __ ] ground and I'd take those kids out of there and be like, "Fuck that. A tribe like that doesn't even deserve to
02:09:53
Andrew Wilsonexist. That's what I would do." Okay. Okay. But from your perspective, why is that bad? If there's no psychological damage, they're demanding to do it. Why
02:10:06
Naima (Jubilee)is that bad? Yeah, I don't really know honestly. I'll concede that one. Now, I do have a question in terms of the use of force. You don't I just want to make sure that
02:10:17
Andrew Wilsonit's on record that you just said that you don't know why it is that an entire tribe that does this with children is bad. I just want to make sure that you are clear that you just said that. I
02:10:29
Naima (Jubilee)think it's bad because P3DO is inherently bad because it is inherently psychologically damaging to children even if they demand to do it. Even if there's no even if the ramifications of the removal of them doing that, the kids
02:10:42
Andrew Wilsonfight tooth and nail to go back to do that because they want to be part of the manhood of the tribe. I'm sorry, what? So even if you try to get them away from doing that, they
02:10:52
Naima (Jubilee)demand to go back and do that, right? They they're demanding it. What's the greater psychological harm then? The greater psychological harm is in I would say it's a net negative to encourage and
02:11:06
Andrew Wilsonendorse pedophilia. Well, you're not you're not it's an isolated tribe. It's not being endorsed by anybody anywhere. Well, I mean, if you were there and you had the opportunity to prevent it and you didn't. Yeah. But why would you from
02:11:18
Andrew Wilsonyour worldview try to prevent something which is only bad by the metrics that you stated that it causes harm when this isn't causing harm? I don't believe that psychologically it doesn't cause harm
02:11:29
Andrew Wilsonthough. But okay, but wouldn't there be a worse psychological ramification if you separate them and they absolutely demand to go back and like willing to kill to get back to their tribe to do this? Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I don't
02:11:41
Andrew Wilsonknow. It sounds an awful lot like you're defending PDF file. I don't think I'm defending PDF. It sounds like you're defending PDF files. PDF file is immoral. Well, but why? You just keep saying because inherently it is. Even
02:11:52
Naima (Jubilee)though you can't give the causal for bad. P3DO is inherently negative because it has a psychological damaging effect on children. Well, if we can't even move into what bad is other than what is bad,
02:12:04
Andrew Wilsonwhat is bad, what if I use So, how do you define that? Yeah. So, I'll use this. Well, you're under the internal critique now. I just defended my worldview. Now, it's your turn. So, I will. So, moving on to your next What do you want me to define it then? Well, you
02:12:15
Andrew Wilsondon't need you. I mean, I I guess you can try real quick if you want to do that on the social side, or we can just move right into your feminist worldview of what is bad. What would be the difference between a
02:12:27
Andrew Wilsonfeminist? Well, I'm trying to I'm trying to make the determination then if it is the case that all I have to do is prove to you that feminism has caused negative outcomes, then you would concede that
02:12:39
Andrew Wilsonfeminism is bad, right? But feminism hasn't caused negative outcomes. But if I could demonstrate that it has, then you would concede it was bad. But it hasn't. But if I could demonstrate that, you would have to
02:12:50
Andrew Wilsonconcede it's bad, right? But you can't. But if I could, you can't. But if I could, would it would you concede it was bad? I want to hear your definition of what is bad, though. Why? Why would my definition of bad have anything to do with what your definition of bad?
02:13:04
Naima (Jubilee)Throughout this entire debate, you have been advocating against the free will and the bodily autonomy of a significant group of people. You wanted Hold on. You want to disenfranchise voters. My whole view was already up for internal
02:13:16
Andrew Wilsoncritique. And I gave you the entire internal critique of my argument of force doctrine for an hour and a half. And now it's my turn for the internal critique. An internal critique of the argument of force doctrine for an hour
02:13:27
Andrew Wilsonand a half. Let's calm down. Uh what do you know what time it is? Yeah, it's about to be 5:45. Yeah. So it was about an hour and a half. So here's here's the
02:13:36
Andrew Wilsonthing, right? We get into feminism itself. If I can demonstrate to you that the outcomes of feminism have been bad, will you concede that it's bad? If I could, if you can demonstrate that the
02:13:48
Naima (Jubilee)outcome of feminism is bad, how would you under the force doctrine, then that would be saying that to has nothing to do with my view. You're now under internal critique. I'm saying that under the force doctrine, the only way to
02:13:59
Andrew Wilsonremove feminism would be through force. If we can both agree that's not the only way to remove feminism. Really? But I thought all power comes through force. So So what? How would you remove power from the fundamental building blocks of
02:14:12
Naima (Jubilee)power would still be there, but it would not be the only way to remove feminism. So, you believe that there are other ways to fundamentally have and consolidate power besides force. Well, it's not just a matter of power though, right? So, but that is this is this is
02:14:24
Andrew Wilsonthe big problem. Like you don't even you don't even understand what's being said. But here's the thing back to this uh on feminism. Do you agree with me that
02:14:33
Andrew Wilsonfeminism has not kept its promise of protecting women?
02:14:41
Andrew WilsonUm, I think it's making progress. I think it's done better, but I don't think it's Well, how how is it done better if we've had now about 150 years of feminism and women are in more dangerous situations they've ever been
02:14:54
Andrew Wilsonin the history of the United States? Why do you believe women are in more dangerous situations now? Well, I'm sorry. Do you do you agree with all of the reign statistics on sexual assault and all these various things? Well, sexual assault statistically has increased, but again, the amount of
02:15:08
Andrew Wilsonreporting has also increased. And so has STDs before sexual assault. So as so has STDs. So men. So have mental ill not as much as it does women. And not as much hang not as much as mental Hang on. I'm going to give you the laundry list.
02:15:20
Andrew WilsonMental illness much higher in women. Single motherhood much higher in women. Right? Divorce A much higher. Right? All of the by every single conceivable uh metric for negative outcome. You would
02:15:31
Andrew Wilsonhave to concede that we've had nothing but negative outcomes from feminism. The intact family home has been completely eliminated due to feminism. That's not true. Yes, it is true. Why are you
02:15:42
Andrew Wilsonconflating causation and correlation though? Okay. I'm sorry. Is it feminist? How are you feminist organizations that push for no fault divorce all over the United States?
02:15:54
Andrew WilsonSure. Yes. Yeah. And I'm sorry, but do you think that we have more or less intact families because of that? Okay. But living in an unhappy home, like why should people be subject to live in to live in sub What about the positive
02:16:06
Andrew Wilsonoutcomes for children? Like even if it were the case that you didn't really like your husband, but your children had better outcomes if you stayed with him, shouldn't you? Your children will not have better outcomes if they did, wouldn't you? I personally would rather live in a family that is separated, but
02:16:19
Andrew Wilsonboth of my I know that's great. What you would personally like to do, but if it were the case that I think most children would though. I mean, if you're in if it were the case though, okay, but what if you're in if it were the case though that you were to be in a relationship
02:16:32
Andrew Wilsonwith a man, you didn't particularly liked him, but you stayed together and your children had better results because you stayed together, right? Would you stay together with him? That's my question. Yes. But what if you're you're forgetting about but you're forgetting about abusive relationships. You're
02:16:45
Naima (Jubilee)forgetting about a relationship in which one parent is an addict. You're forgetting about one parent and one parent is a cheater. We'll go over those. child would be significantly it would be significantly more beneficial to be removed from a I'll give you the
02:16:57
Andrew Wilsonstats there as well. So as we dive into this, understand that cohabitation between men and women is what leads to mostly abuse, not marriage. The marriage rates of abuse are very low in comparison to cohabitation. Cohabitation is the
02:17:10
Andrew Wilsonstandardization which you see with divorce. That's where most of the abuse comes from. Where it doesn't come from usually is from the husband in the home. But you're saying that cohabitation is leading to abuse and marriage is cohabitation. No, no, no. Cohabitation
02:17:23
Andrew Wilsonwould be you're living with a man without being married to him. Okay. Okay. So you think that they should marry but like that would be having a child out of wedlock which is yeah you don't need to have a child out of wedlock either you like these things are not mutually exclusive. So if it is the
02:17:36
Naima (Jubilee)case you have cohabitation it leads to more abuse. The prescription for that for the less negative outcome would be marriage right. No the prescription for that would be to separate those two people. If cohabitation of two partners who are not married is leading to abuse then why should those people then get
02:17:49
Andrew Wilsonmarried? Yeah that doesn't make any sense. Okay. No no no. The fact that they're married and the fact that when you're married there's less abuse than when you cohabitate would point and indicate that cohabitation is a bad
02:18:01
Naima (Jubilee)idea. Not that marriage is a bad idea. No, I think it would point and indicate that couples who cohabitate without being married. It's better. Why should they get why should you get married to someone who you cannot even cohabitate
02:18:13
Naima (Jubilee)with? Because abuse rates skyrocket when you cohabitate and are not married. So those who are cohabitated in an abusive relationship once they get married you're claiming the cohabitation itself
02:18:23
Naima (Jubilee)leads to more abuse. Okay. So then why would the remedy of that be for those two people to get married? Because often times the cohabitation begins from divorce. So
02:18:35
Andrew Wilsonyou're saying that cohabitation what the [ __ ] does that even mean? It means that post divorce women tend to cohabitate more especially when they have kids. And it's the cohabitation with these people which leads to the abuse in their kids or the
02:18:48
Andrew Wilsonabuse of them. So you're saying that they should stay in an unhappy relationship instead of only if we care about outcomes. And you said if it is the case that I stayed with my man and the outcome for my kid was better, you
02:19:00
Andrew Wilsonshould probably do that. So if it's the case that I can demonstrate for you that when women leave their husband, the abuse rates for them and their kids skyrocket for cohabitation. But what about the outcome for that man? My turn. I
02:19:12
Andrew Wilsonmean, that's a net negative for two adults versus a net for a child. Here's what you said. You said specifically, if it is the case that I'm married and uh the results are better for my kids, wait
02:19:24
Andrew Wilsonone second. One second. One second. Filibuster the debate. Hold on. Why is your mom calling you in the middle of a debate while she's doing that?
02:19:35
SPEAKER_04There we go. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Now chats come through. Pop champagne. Yeah, that's for the the olive jar. Bring it. Savage destruction tonight. Andrew, I don't want a pickle
02:19:47
Brian Atlasjar. It's an olive jar, so it might be easier. We weren't able to find Sorry, we couldn't find the pickle jar. Go ahead. Put it on the corner there. You paid $1,000 for a pickle jar. You should get a pickle jar. You know, actually,
02:19:57
Brian Atlasuh, I'll see what I can do. Okay. Uh, can you Do you have a source on You You got to open it. Oh, I have to open it right now. Yeah. Okay. Yes. It's It's easier because it's an olive jar, though. Wait, put it My nail is [ __ ]
02:20:10
Andrew Wilsonme up. Yes, I do have a source for that if you would like it. It's from the NIS. Anybody can find it. I just cited all of the statistics on it yesterday. Uh oh. Come on. You can do it. Put it Put it
02:20:22
Brian Atlasright side up. Just You can do it. You got this. All right, bro. I can't do it. Here. All right. Oh my god. Uh you I guess Yeah. Andrew, go ahead. I'm supposed to open the pickle jar. It's
02:20:34
Andrew Wilsonlike a Yeah. Oh jeez. I do. This seems a little immature. I know. for the guy sent $1,000. Yeah, but it seems slightly immature. It's all [ __ ] now. I got to
02:20:45
Andrew Wilsongrip it. Uh oh. Andrew, if you can't open it either. Well, your hand greased the whole top of it. My hand or mine here. High five. Literally. It's Look, feel it. Tell. Isn't that greasy? It was
02:20:57
Naima (Jubilee)like that already. Oh my god. No, it wasn't. You greased the top. Use your shirt. Andrew, if you can't open the olive jar, you cannot blame my While we're doing the olive jar. If you're so strong, you should open it. Yeah. I got
02:21:07
Andrew Wilsonto be able to grip it. Okay, we'll grip it. Let's go. It's literally slippery. Uh-oh. Back. Grab me a paper towel so I can dry the top of it off. Okay, once the top is dry, you still Do we now need
02:21:19
Naima (Jubilee)to allow her another opportunity with a Yeah, give her the paper towel so the paper I think you should do it. Andrew, you're the big strong man. There you go. Come on. Here. I'm going to let some We got some chats while they're working
02:21:31
SPEAKER_04on that. Red Fox. Thank you. Deontology prioritizes intent, but threshold exceptions introduce consequentialist reasoning. I'll let you go first if you want. Andrew, I agreed it all up. There
02:21:42
Brian Atlasyou go. Are absolute. Introducing a threshold is ad hoc. Uh, Red Fox, thank you for that. Uh, appreciate it. Did
02:21:54
Andrew WilsonI can't grip the [ __ ] Uhoh. Like, I got to have a way to grip it. Jungle, I'm sorry. It's not My fingers slip right off the lid. My fingers are literally slipping off the lid. I just can't grip it. You know
02:22:06
Andrew Wilsonwhat? Maybe the olive jars are hard harder than the pickle jars. They're not hard to open, but I can't grip anything. Watch this [ __ ] So, you can't blame me for my greasy fingers now. Like, god. It's still greasy. The top of it. Like,
02:22:18
SPEAKER_04you tried it with like four. Feel it yourself. Tell me. You know what? Is that not greasy and sticky? Yeah, it's pretty [ __ ] greasy. I'm going to let uh But Lulu donated $200. Lulu, thank
02:22:30
SPEAKER_04you for this. Aara, you got good morals, but you're not engaging with Andrew on the level in which he's challenging you. Oh, he's calling me think you believe in the philosophy
02:22:42
Andrew Wilsonbook. Here. Go, go, go. Yeah. Just can't rip the Okay, now I want it to be like pisses me off. Should we have Jake? You'll see the same thing. It's It's
02:22:50
Andrew Wilsonjust greasy. It is. See, it's [ __ ] greasy. It just slides off of it. Yeah. Okay. It's just too [ __ ] greasy. Yeah. You know what? You'll get the same. Come in here, Jake. You think?
02:23:03
Andrew WilsonCome on. You'll see for yourself. You can't get your [ __ ] hand on it. Try it. No, you [ __ ] That was [ __ ] [ __ ] I loosened it for you. I just
02:23:15
Naima (Jubilee)want to save a record. We got a little olive juice out. Let's get off the table. So, does he have your Does he own your free will now? Cuz he could open it and you couldn't based on Forest. Wipe it up. He could He could at least grip
02:23:27
Andrew Wilsonit, I guess. So, I don't know. Here. Wipe it up though. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get it. Brian, calm down. It's all good. Here you go. Yeah. I got to keep the table clean.
02:23:39
Brian AtlasOh god. Is Brian going to I'm going to lose my mind. I'm going to lose my mind. Is that Is that good for you now, Brian? I just want to remind you, Andrew, that Jake just totally mogged you. Well, didn't didn't Jake just totally mo you?
02:23:52
Brian AtlasWell, hey, I only got it. He mogged all of us. Didn't Didn't Jake just mo you? You had it for a minute, Andrew. and you were greasy as [ __ ] and I couldn't standing up and [ __ ] I got one more
02:24:02
Brian Atlaschat coming through and let's try to bring it back to feminism. Avatar Avatar Gloavius donated $200. That's a great question actually. Do you think misogyny
02:24:13
Brian Atlasis worse than Missandry? If so, why? Here's what we're going to do, though. Yeah, I like that question. I mean, I have a quick answer. I think equally bad. Time is limited, so we do uh have to kind of rapid fire through it. So, if
02:24:26
Naima (Jubilee)you guys want to have a brief back and forth, I don't I want to get back to the view. I agree with that. Um, no, I don't think misogyny is worse than misinjury. I think they are both equally bad. I
02:24:38
Naima (Jubilee)think that specifically I think that the point should be to create a society in which both sexes work together. I will acknowledge that there are differences between men and women
02:24:49
Naima (Jubilee)physiologically, but at the same time, I do think that mentally both groups are an inherent net positive on our society. And I think that it is better if both groups work together. And anyone who is
02:25:00
Andrew Wilsonwilling to sew divisiveness between men and women, I do not agree with. By the way, I just want to point out to the chat to go over to Jake's travel blog and watch as he couldn't [ __ ] a rifle. And I had to literally grab it from him
02:25:11
Andrew Wilsonand [ __ ] this rifle cuz he couldn't do it. Just want to point that out. He's salty in that.
02:25:21
Brian AtlasYes, the jar. It's Indiana Wilson in the jar of doom. Uh, is it would it be worth covering uh male privilege, for example, as it relates to feminism? Um, wait. I just
02:25:32
Naima (Jubilee)wanted to really quickly say on the topic of cohabitation versus marriage in necessarily an unhappy home as we both agreed that ad feminism is the advocacy
02:25:45
Naima (Jubilee)of women's rights on the basis of equality and equity of the sexes. To be able to promote that women can also get a divorce as well as men, I don't think is advocating in favor of cohabitation.
02:25:58
Andrew WilsonAnd both can be true. I don't think that those are mutually exclusive. There's better topics to cover. I think the problem with that is that we're using your metric for what is bad. Under your metric for what is bad is the negative outcomes. There's negative outcomes with
02:26:10
Andrew Wilsonthose relationships. Therefore, they are bad. I already told you that I'm not an inherent consequentialist. Yeah, I know. But every time I try to get a justification out of you, you just went back to negative outcomes. Otherwise, bad is bad is bad is bad is bad is bad. Okay, but you can't really quantify the
02:26:23
Andrew Wilsonnet negative outcome of something that doesn't happen. Actually, I can quantify the negative net outcome. I can look at what happens to the children who are abused. I can give you the stats from the NIS. I went over all of them yesterday right here on this very
02:26:36
Andrew Wilsonprogram with a different feminist debater. So then what you're arguing is against cohabitation but not against the right to unless it's feminists who are doing everything they can in order to produce the outcomes for marriage and
02:26:48
Naima (Jubilee)cohabitation. I mean, I don't know who you're talking to, but I'm talking to reduce the outcomes against like you can say that cohabitation is bad, but women still deserve a right to divorce a husband.
02:27:00
Andrew WilsonThat is Okay. Well, let's move on. We'll move on to the next one. I'm fine with that. Yeah. And we'll do the final internal critique for the debates. Done. What's the next topic, Brian? Or do you want me to bring one up? You have something you I mean, we could cover uh
02:27:13
Brian Atlasdifferentials when it comes to privilege, male privilege versus female privilege. What's the question? What's the Do you believe that uh there's Do you think
02:27:25
Naima (Jubilee)male privilege exists? Yeah. I mean, and is it greater than female privilege? I think that we all have inherent privileges and I think it's important to talk about intersectionality when we talk about privilege because Yeah. But
02:27:37
Naima (Jubilee)what's the question is asking specifically? Do you think that Andrew, you don't let me finish my statement? You want me to finish the statement because you don't know where I'm going with it. Yes or no? Do men have more privilege in society? I think some men
02:27:49
Naima (Jubilee)do. Yes. But again, like I would think that a disabled man probably has less privilege than a able-bodied woman depending on what his disability is. If we were to take all women and put them
02:28:00
Andrew Wilsoncollective as a group and all men collective as a group, would you say that men are more advantaged or have privileges over women or that women are privileged and have advantages over men? Yeah, I would say collectively men probably have more privileges than men. Okay.
02:28:13
Andrew WilsonSo now we understand exactly what it is that we're arguing. So let me just start with this. What about the draft? What about the draft? So how is it that men are privileged over women when men can be drafted, women cannot? Well, that
02:28:25
Naima (Jubilee)wouldn't be an example of when women have a privilege over men. I don't think the draft should apply to anyone though, to be honest. It does apply to men. I know. And I don't even think we should have a draft. I think inherently immoral
02:28:36
Andrew Wilsonas well. Yeah, but we do have a draft. We do descriptively. I know. Oh, and and how could it be that men, young men especially, can be drafted at the age of 18, 19, 20 years old, be sent to fight
02:28:47
Andrew Wilsonwars often on behalf of women who can vote them into those wars, right? How is that a privilege that men have? And what is the if you had to pick anything that you could point to for women that is on
02:28:58
Naima (Jubilee)par with that duty that men have? I want to hear what it is. I would say probably the societal role of the traditional wife and the inability for certain women
02:29:08
Naima (Jubilee)or the promotion of an idea that women should not be allowed to work. Who promotes that women should not be allowed to work? You do. No, I don't. So, you think that women should be allowed to work? Women have always been
02:29:21
Naima (Jubilee)able to work. And you think that outside of the home? Yeah, of course. They've always been able to work outside the home. Okay, that's great. What does that have to do with anything? I mean, part of the whole manosphere and like the promotion of these social norms and
02:29:34
Andrew Wilsonsocial rules. That's where you're wrong. You see, really the the actually you have the more misogynistic view. No, but I'm you have the more misogynistic view. The truth is is that what the manosphere
02:29:45
Andrew Wilsonwould say is that a lot of them say, "No, those women need to [ __ ] work otherwise they're in a position of privilege being at home." So, let me ask you this. Are women in a position of privilege podcasters. Oh, you hear them
02:29:57
Andrew Wilsonsay it all the time. Are women in a position of privilege saying that Gaines isn't saying that? Yeah, they do. But here's the thing. I'll demonstrate it for you. Are women in a position of privilege when they're stay-at-home
02:30:08
Naima (Jubilee)moms? No. Are they in a position of privilege when they're working? Unless they I mean, I think that they're in a position of equality or equity. That's the goal. But so then that would mean by
02:30:20
Andrew Wilsonthat logic they're oppressed by being stay-at-home moms. I think that if they are not using their free will to decide whether or not they're a stay at home mom. Yeah, they're a stay-at-home mom. Okay. Are they privileged or not privileged? Is it a privilege to be a
02:30:33
Naima (Jubilee)stay-at-home mom or is it not a privilege to be a stay-at-home mom? Or is it a privilege for women to work or is it not a privilege to work? I think it depends circumstantially. If a stay-at-home mom is choosing and has her free will to be a stay at home mom and
02:30:45
Naima (Jubilee)that is an arrangement that she made with her husband who would also like to do that, then it can be yes. But if a woman does not have the right to make that choice and if you are you know
02:30:56
Andrew Wilsonproposing a society in which we follow strict gender rules and societal rules in which Yeah. But gender gender norms show women always working always having
02:31:06
Andrew Wilsonworked. Yes. The idea is gender norms what they don't show is that it's a good idea for women to take their reproductive years and work outside of the home. That's stupid. That makes no sense. Yes. Of course. How do you
02:31:19
Andrew Wilsonestablish yourself in a career if you like actively have a child at home? You establish yourself in a career after your childbearing years like everybody else would. So you have to start work at like 40 versus having children at 40.
02:31:32
Andrew WilsonWell, you don't have you can do both though. But here's the thing. This is what's so funny. Establish a career. Do you think then that if you split moms split their attention between their children and their career that their children are going to get as much
02:31:45
Andrew Wilsonattention as they would if the mom didn't have a career? But why should a mother not have the ability to have a career for their children? Well, then just don't have children. They would, right? Exactly. This is my point though,
02:31:57
Naima (Jubilee)right? It's like, so why would But women make up 47% of the labor force. Literally, millions of women do this every day. Yeah. And you know what happens? Our birth rate. Do you know what it's at? It's a lot lower
02:32:08
Andrew Wilsonsignificantly. Why? Because women are having kids older. But that's free will. You can't just user someone's right to have free will because their job is. So let me ask you, is it a negative thing that the birth
02:32:21
Andrew Wilsonrate is declining to the point where we can't even sustain our population? Well, we could if we allow immigrants to come in. But wait, wait, wait. So you want to replace the population? No. I'm not a replacement theorist. But you want to replace the population? Can we go back?
02:32:33
Andrew WilsonNo, no, no. We can Can you answer the question? If it is the case that our population is massively decreasing, which you just conceded it is, because women are having children older, which
02:32:44
Andrew Wilsonyou just conceded they are, and you say that's a good thing. And then say it wouldn't it wouldn't go down if we had immigrants come in. How's that not replacing the population? I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I don't understand what your solution is. Should women not be allowed to work until it's
02:32:57
Andrew Wilsonyour internal critique time now? Tell me, will women not be allowed to work until they've had children? Why are you asking me questions of answering them? Now it's my turn to ask the question. So why is that? Because you just open you
02:33:10
Andrew Wilsonjust internally critiqued and I allowed you for over an hour at least my position, my turn. So real quick, can you tell me why it is that when you get to the point where you cannot replace
02:33:21
Andrew Wilsonyour own population and you say, "Well, we wouldn't have a problem with that if we open it up to immigrants." How is that not you advocating for replacement? I'm not advocating for complete replacement. I'm not saying people should just stop working and stop having
02:33:33
Naima (Jubilee)children and it should be entirely up to immigrants, but I mean if we did have more channels for immigrants to come into this country legally, you know, we might not replace the domestic population. What's the problem with
02:33:44
Andrew Wilsondoing that though? Don't all would it replace the domestic population? It wouldn't completely replace it. Would it mostly replace it? It would add. Why is it replace? It's adding because if the
02:33:56
Andrew Wilsonpeople who are Okay, let me add ask you this. Is it a good thing that Native Americans don't have a lot of kids? Why aren't they having kids? Well, is it a good thing that they are or are not?
02:34:07
Andrew WilsonWould you rather see Native Americans having more kids? I mean, I don't like Why is it a bad thing that we came over here and took land from the Native Americans and replaced their population? Why is that bad? Well, because we killed
02:34:19
Andrew Wilsonmillions of people and caused significant amount. Actually, it was human suffering. Actually, actually, most hang on. Most of what killed is most of what killed Native Americans was not genocide. It was disease. The Trail
02:34:32
Andrew Wilsonof Tears killed millions of people. Okay. That actually, no. The Trail of Tears didn't kill millions of people. Yes, it did. How many millions do you think died in the Trail of Tears? Let's Google it. Google it. All right.
02:34:44
Brian AtlasHow many millions died at the Trail of Tears? It says an estimated 4,000 out of 16,000 Cherokee people or wait forced to
02:34:54
Brian Atlasrelocate. Let me see deaths. Uh how many millions? It says uh estimate estimate that 6,000 men, women, and children die on the
02:35:05
Andrew Wilson12,200 mile march called the Trail of Tears, Cherokee. Okay. So, is 6,000 anywhere close to millions? Let's just millions. How many Native American people were killed from colonization? Can you Google that one for me? Yeah,
02:35:18
Brian Atlasdisease. How many were killed by disease? How many Native Americans killed by colonization? It's a millions of people. No, disease killed them. Disease killed the
02:35:31
Andrew Wilsonoverwhelming amount of Native Americans. We used chemical warfare or not. We Oh, we did. Huh? So, we didn't understand anything about how diseases worked, but we were able to use diseases for chemical warfare, huh? What do you mean we didn't understand how disease? When
02:35:42
Naima (Jubilee)do you think When do you think we understood the disease process? You know that smallox blankets, blankets that were infected with smallox given and gifted to not the [ __ ] it's not. Okay,
02:35:54
Andrew Wilsonlet me ask you a question. Is that a myth? You get sick and you don't understand how the disease process works because science hasn't discovered it yet. And then you hand a blanket that sick people have used to another person
02:36:05
Brian Atlasnot understanding. We back that one too, Brian. Did you check it? Yes. Which one? Smallox. First of all, how many millions were check the smallox that one first in the uh in the United States and North
02:36:17
Andrew WilsonAmerica or the entire Americas? Actually, if we didn't, you're just goalpost shifting. I mean, but that's not true. I said that you said millions of people died during the Trail of
02:36:27
Andrew WilsonTears. Okay, stop lying. All right, then let's include all Holy [ __ ] Stop lying. And also check All you have to do is check the disease that Native Americans All you have to do is check the disease rates. It was 80 to 90% of all natives
02:36:40
Andrew Wilsondied from diseases. And by the way, the smallox blankets, the smallox blankets happened hundreds of years after colonization. Calm down. The question that you ask smallox blankets happened hundreds of years postc colonization.
02:36:53
Naima (Jubilee)The question that you were asking, let's fact check that. But while you're doing that, the question that you were asking is, was the colonization of the Americas
02:37:02
Naima (Jubilee)bad? And I'm saying yes, it was because it resulted in the deaths of millions of people. Got it. So if the outcome and that would be a negative outcome, right?
02:37:13
Andrew WilsonYes. So if God why is my if Japan if Japan wants to keep itself Japanese is that negative for what purpose? Because they just want to be Japanese. How are they doing that?
02:37:24
Andrew WilsonBy not letting in any immigrants are immigrants coming into their country and are they detaining them in cages? Very very few are ever allowed to come in. Yes. Very few. I mean if they're not
02:37:36
Naima (Jubilee)physically hurting or endangering those people then I wouldn't say that's necessarily a negative. But I think it depends on the outcome for the Japanese population. So if the Japanese um if let's just say that they only wanted their domestic population to be
02:37:49
Naima (Jubilee)Japanese. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Uh I don't know. You don't know? Can I answer the question? If there's a net negative that happens when the Japanese population
02:38:02
Naima (Jubilee)selfisolates, then I do think that there's something inherently wrong with that. But I think it's hard to quantify how negative that is to that population. So like if the Japanese were isolating themselves and their birth rate was
02:38:13
Naima (Jubilee)decreasing, you would consider that to be negative. Yes. If they were losing population, if they were losing a labor force because of selfisolation, if people were starving and people could not make enough money because of Well, they weren't just star they're not starving, but they're just not
02:38:26
Naima (Jubilee)reproducing. If people aren't reproducing and they're incapable of reproduction or they're capable of it, they're just not. Yeah. I mean, if it is hurting that population, then I would say that's a net negative. Okay. So then
02:38:36
Andrew Wilsonif white people aren't reproducing, is that hurting their population? It depends. Do they want to reproduce? It seemingly seemingly the like primary edict is reproduction, right? Okay.
02:38:49
Andrew WilsonSure. Okay. So then if white people are not reproducing, that's harmful to white people's population. Well, if the primary edict is reproduction, why aren't they reproducing? Well, because they defer their what's happened is
02:39:00
Andrew Wilsonthere has been a massive campaign to defer all women's childbearing years for college years. This is in every industrial country we look at. So what are you structurally asking? I'm asking you this question. I'm asking you is it
02:39:12
Andrew Wilsoninherently bad that white people aren't reproducing? No. If they So is it inherently bad like you just said that the Japanese people aren't reproducing? I guess no. If they're in their free
02:39:25
Andrew Wilsonwill. But what the [ __ ] How is it bad if the Japanese don't reproduce? But it's it's it it's bad if they don't, but it's not bad if white people don't. No, I'm not saying it's bad if either group
02:39:36
Naima (Jubilee)does. What I'm saying is it depends on the effects to that population and why they're not reproducing. If they're not reproducing as an exercise of free will and they are happier without reproducing, then why is that negative?
02:39:48
Andrew WilsonSo, if we were to look at like the mental health outcomes of women who reproduce versus those who didn't, which which group would you say would be be happier? Um, I'm not sure. Which group do you say would be happier? Well, statistically,
02:40:01
Andrew Wilsonwhich group is happier? what the group that's statistically happier are women who reproduce and have children. Okay, but again that's the whole causation correlation thing and it feels like the thing is is like everything you can say is a causation, right? We look for the
02:40:14
Andrew Wilsonprimary causation for what is the correlation. We even do this with things like drinking and driving, right? So I could always say no, it just correlates that drinking in your car leads to more accidents, right? But if it is the case
02:40:26
Andrew Wilsonthat that's the primary correlate then we tend to say it's because drinking and driving these accidents increase. That's how you would do it. Hang on. So if that's the case, I'm just asking you again the question, right? When you say
02:40:38
Andrew Wilsonit's just correlation causation, if the primary correlation is that they're having children and that's what makes them happier and that women who don't have children are less happy, then wouldn't you say that's a negative outcome?
02:40:52
Naima (Jubilee)Yes, I would say that's a negative. But I do just want to ask, so let's say that that is a negative outcome. What is your solution? Do you think women should not be allowed to go to college? Do you think women should I would just advocate
02:41:02
Andrew Wilsonfor a national campaign which asks women to keep the the traditional family intact because it's going to lead to the most amount of children and to defer those college age years. Just like we did a national campaign to try to move
02:41:15
Andrew Wilsonwomen into college, I would do a national campaign to say defer those years for childbearing. And you can always go to college later after your kids are grown or you can do it from home. Well, that's not fun. That's not the point of college. Did you go to college? The point of college is to go
02:41:27
Naima (Jubilee)[ __ ] No. What's the point? The point of college is to learn while you are young so that you can gain skills that help you in the workforce and develop a career over time. It takes time to develop a career. You can you can develop the first of all, most of the
02:41:39
Andrew Wilsonpeople are getting degrees by the way. They ain't using those [ __ ] degrees in any of those fields, are they? What's your degree gonna be in? What's it gonna be in? [ __ ] your mom. No, I'm joking. Film production. And do
02:41:51
Andrew Wilsonyou think that you're going to end up a film producer? Hopefully. That's But I mean, do you think that the chances that most people have a degree in film production are producing film? I mean, I happen to go to the best film school in the country, but you know. Yeah. Just
02:42:03
Andrew Wilsonlike I just had a woman I talked to yesterday who got a degree in comedy writing. Oh, well, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. or psychology or sociology. These degree these fields are completely
02:42:15
Naima (Jubilee)oversaturated. These skills are still useful and we also know but we also okay but we also know that people on average who get a college degree the median income for those people is higher. Yeah.
02:42:26
Andrew WilsonBut guess what? The negative effects mentally much higher than if they don't have children. They're college educated. So your plan is to usurp people's free will. How are you usurping it by having a campaign just asking people to defer? Okay. And then if they choose not to do
02:42:39
Andrew Wilsonthat, what happens? They can choose. But here's the thing. It was extraordinarily fun. It was extraordinarily effective to have the propaganda which said that women should be going to college. If you
02:42:50
Andrew Wilsonlook at the college rates pre the propaganda post it, right, you can see that it had a great effect. You could have the same type of effect which which asked women to defer that after childbearing years because they're happier well more well adjusted. And
02:43:03
Naima (Jubilee)guess what? You would be promoting then the the old school gender roles. Women fought an entire I mean not fought physically but women had several many movements on the basis of demanding the
02:43:16
Naima (Jubilee)right to choose whether or not they go to college and when. Why would we do that if we didn't want Are you saying that the feminist revolution is a proper movement? When it came to college it was I mean there's currently more women in college than it didn't want to be here.
02:43:29
Andrew WilsonSo when it came to college there was very few there was these Ivy League colleges. There was very few colleges ever and most men never went to college either. That's the truth. almost nobody ever went to college. It was about uh the best and the brightest. And what's
02:43:41
Andrew Wilsonhappened is we've lowered the deviated standards so anybody can [ __ ] go to college. Now it's become a requirement for an entry-level job to go to college, which is insane. But that's an issue with capitalism. It's not an issue with
02:43:52
Brian Atlascapitalism. It's an issue with stupid feminist propaganda. Just a moment. Just a moment. Uh I need to uh do a quick sidebar with both of you really quick. So uh viewers, we're going to take a 20
02:44:03
Brian Atlas30 second intermission. Just stay tuned. Hold on for just a moment. What' we do? Oh, no. You guys didn't do anything. One moment, guys.
02:45:20
Brian AtlasI'm going to let some I'm going to let some chats come through. Um, while we're doing that, we're just seeing if we're going to be able to uh increase the length of the debate for just a bit here since we are closing in on the end here.
02:45:32
SPEAKER_04We have Pasty George with message. Hey, Pasty. Thank you. Pasty George donated $200. Thank you. Ultimately, feminism had to rely on men physical force even
02:45:42
Naima (Jubilee)to open. My argument is that men rely on physical force of men too. So a man who's stronger than you from removing your physical force. Why is he nothing? That's what force doctrine is. Like you
02:45:55
Brian Atlasstill don't get it. Uh last call if you want to get the message in $200 TTS. Pull it up. Streamlabs. That doesn't like why are the leaders not why are our leaders not the strongest people in the world? One more if you guys pay attention. George
02:46:06
SPEAKER_04donated $200. Thank you, Pasty George. It's estimated that approximately 90% of the indigenous population in the Americas or about 55 million people died
02:46:16
Brian Atlasduring the colonization period. Cont. Continued. Continued. Yeah. Do we want to see the rest? How do we Yeah, it's it's going to come in just 10 seconds. Pasty George, thank you for the message. If you guys want to get your own message
02:46:27
SPEAKER_04here as we uh are getting ready to wrap up the stream, streamllights.com/ whatever $200 TS, get them in. Pasty George donated $200. This drastic population decline is
02:46:40
Andrew Wilsonattributed to a combination of factors including disease disment and violence. In Canada, a similar pattern of population decline occurred. So it is true that violence and forced
02:46:53
Andrew Wilsondisplacement did kill a lot of Native Americans. I'm not disputing that. I'm what I am saying though is that disease killed the overwhelming amount of the native population. By the way, did we ever get the results on whether or not
02:47:04
Naima (Jubilee)small pox the small pox blankets? I don't if he's not going to answer. We are going to drive up to Northern Cali, so I probably can't stay if I'm being honest. Well, just keep an eye on your
02:47:16
Brian Atlasphone and if he gives you an answer, he gives you an answer. We'll do uh in in that case, here's what we're going to do. Oh, Mary, can I have you uh hold on, I'll send you a private chat. Mary, give
02:47:26
Brian Atlasus a moment, guys, while we're just figuring out a few things here.
02:47:35
Brian AtlasOne sec. I need to bring it back to intro. I don't know.
02:47:53
Naima (Jubilee)Okay. Keep us posted on that. Yeah, he's on DND. I mean, what do you want to do if he doesn't respond by 6:30?
02:48:03
Brian AtlasUh why don't we just do this? Uh why don't you guys give your closing statements and time permitting will allow for like a little uh little overtime. Okay, we'll just do that. So
02:48:14
Brian Atlasuh Andrew, are you going or I get to go last. I open first. So you go you give your uh closing statement up to five minutes. Then Andrew will give his. Go ahead. Okay. Hold on. Wait. I put it
02:48:23
Naima (Jubilee)back here. Take your time. Okay. So um there were a lot of statements made today. Some of them I do agree with, some of them I don't. Um and I do think that there is a difference
02:48:35
Naima (Jubilee)between what we can do in terms of the force doctrine and what we ought to do. I think my goal society is to advance us towards a mutually beneficial society.
02:48:48
Naima (Jubilee)And I think that a lot of the arguments made are not only negative towards men but women as well. So socially and I
02:48:57
Naima (Jubilee)think that there are three differences, three negative impacts of kind of hating on the goal of equality and they're social, economic and political. So
02:49:10
Naima (Jubilee)socially it's fair to state that people are generally happier when they have free will and that it is although we cannot agree on a definition of free will. It is inherently better to have a
02:49:22
Naima (Jubilee)society in which all of us have a basic capacity for will over their body and bodily autonomy. I think that a lot of the we didn't really talk that much about feminism if I'm being honest. My
02:49:34
Naima (Jubilee)closing statement is mostly about that. But I guess what I'll say is that everyone deserves a right to free will without judgment. And that goes for men as well as women. I think that a lot of
02:49:43
Naima (Jubilee)the idea that men have to maintain force over others and that if they don't do that, they are emasculating themselves is inherently stifling to young men. I think it's negative to young men. I
02:49:55
Naima (Jubilee)think it encourages aggression against each other and against women. And I would argue that the equal force doctrine is inherently immoral. It is
02:50:05
Naima (Jubilee)immoral to police and dictate society exclusively on the basis of force. If that was the case, then all of our presidents would be the president because they want to freaking arm
02:50:15
Naima (Jubilee)wrestle. I think economically, women do make up 47% of the labor force. Like it or not, women add trillions of dollars to the GDP alongside men every year. If
02:50:27
Naima (Jubilee)we were to have women just step away from working and exclusively run the household, we
02:50:35
Naima (Jubilee)would be economically handicapping our own society. And in terms of men, the wage stagnation for the middle class, which we didn't even get into, um there's been incredible amounts of wage
02:50:48
Naima (Jubilee)stagnation for middle class and lower income workers. According to Pew Research, after adjusting for inflation, middle- class and lower income workers are making about the same now as they did in 1978. They have the same spending
02:50:59
Naima (Jubilee)power. However, the cost of housing and living has gone up dramatically. From 1970, the median home price was $23,000, which accounting for inflation is about
02:51:10
Naima (Jubilee)$180,000 to today. And in 2025, the median home price in quarter 1 of this year was $416,000. So it's almost three times as
02:51:21
Naima (Jubilee)high as it was in 1978. So the a and the average cost of raising a child is around $21,000 a year in the US. Of course that depends on where you are, but that's the national
02:51:32
Naima (Jubilee)average. I think if it is entirely up to men to put the and it puts the burden entirely on men to financially compensate for their household, you know, you're kind of
02:51:43
Naima (Jubilee)disenfranchising them on a level as well. I think the economic standard you're trying to hold men to is impossible and unfair. And I don't think that you've had to live it because
02:51:53
Naima (Jubilee)you're not the age of most men who are starting a family and who are starting work and who are starting to carry the financial burden of a society in which they are the sole providers for their household. And then again, money is
02:52:06
Naima (Jubilee)power. And if women don't have the ability to make money, then they don't have the power to dictate what they do with themselves. and they don't have the power to get basic resources for their
02:52:15
Naima (Jubilee)children like food and water and lights and housing. And then politically, I think this one got kind of messy because
02:52:26
Naima (Jubilee)Andrew doesn't seem to believe in basic representation for either men or women. But I believe in a representative government. I think that it is fundamentally illogical and practically
02:52:37
Naima (Jubilee)impossible to create a government that is not based on the representation of all people. I just think that's immoral. And maybe I can't answer why that is, but I think we a lot of people agree that they would like to the right to
02:52:49
Naima (Jubilee)vote. And just because you are stupid does not deny you the right to vote. But despite being slightly more than half of the US population, women have
02:52:59
Naima (Jubilee)yet to make up 30% of the government. In history, the total number of female Supreme Court justices is six out of 116. That's like
02:53:10
Naima (Jubilee)5%. And I just don't think you can claim to have a representative democracy if it has never accurately represented the population. But it doesn't sound like Andrew wants a representative democracy
02:53:20
Naima (Jubilee)anyway. So I guess that's besides the point. But in closing, I think that it's important to note that you literally cannot have a society of men or only women. We actively just have to work
02:53:32
Naima (Jubilee)together. There's nothing we can do to avoid having to live and work together. And I think that by hurting Thank you. Oh. Oh, you're talking. You're good. You're good. Sorry. How much time do I
02:53:42
Naima (Jubilee)have left? Uh, well, uh, Andrew will give his closing statement, so you can sure take your time though to finish up. Yeah. But anyway, I think that enforcing stringent gender norms and I think that enforcing strict gender roles and I
02:53:56
Naima (Jubilee)think that encouraging people to fall into those roles if that's not how they would like to exercise their free will is inherently immoral. I do. It fundamentally is. To force people to do things that they do not want to do is an
02:54:06
Naima (Jubilee)immoral act and it hurts both men and women because we fundamentally cannot exist without each other. We are the same species and I don't know, we just
02:54:17
Brian Atlasgot to make it work. All good. Yep. Okay. I know. Did you hear? You want to just check your phone? See if you heard from him. All right. Andrew, would you like to give your closing statement?
02:54:28
Andrew WilsonYeah. So, my opponent um this debate was particularly annoying because she just literally has no idea what she's talking about. She contradicted herself multiple times. She conceded the force doctrine. She said that there was millions of people died
02:54:41
Andrew Wilsonon the trail of tears, just to name a few crazy ass things that she said. when I she uh did a question begging fallacy which then moved on into another contradiction when we went into what
02:54:52
Andrew Wilsonactually even makes a thing bad. She couldn't decide on what even her ethical purview was in which she was holding feminism to the standard of an ethical purview. We couldn't even get past a lot of that. So then we move into feminism
02:55:04
Andrew Wilsonitself. She ends up conceding to most of my points there as well that she says that if the Japanese if their birth rate went down that would be bad by her standard. White people wouldn't be bad. But then she contradicted that as well.
02:55:14
Andrew WilsonIt was just one contradiction after another. In fact, I would say out of all the opponents I've ever had, this particular one contradicted herself more than maybe any other I've ever dealt
02:55:25
Andrew Wilsonwith. When I go back through it and we clip it up, I got a feeling that it's just going to be like 800 contradictions. Um, she the other thing
02:55:35
Andrew Wilsonto focus on too is that she conceded altogether force doctrine. She ended up uh at the very end uh explaining that she not only agreed that it's descriptively true, but that men have no
02:55:47
Andrew Wilsonobligation whatsoever to utilize force on behalf of women. There's no moral ought for them to do that, which is exactly what force doctrine dictates. So, she she made a complete concession
02:55:56
Andrew Wilsonon that as well. Um she says that hating on equality is stupid, but we started to kind of dive into this. we weren't able to get to it. But uh bit bit on college when she conceded to the point that the
02:56:10
Andrew Wilsonstandards have been lowered to the point where now a degree is necessary to get a job. You can see this with DEI across the board. It's it's not an empowerment of anybody. It's a lowering of standards which hurts everybody. And that's
02:56:22
Andrew Wilsonactually what's been going on in society for a long time is the lowering of standards. That includes with college, right? She concedes that most of the population is stupid. That was what she said. She said, "You're right. Most most
02:56:33
Andrew Wilsonpeople are stupid. Yet she she I don't think she would say most women who go to college are stupid. Which is interesting, isn't it? Right. Most population stupid. Most women who go to college are not. But if you agree that
02:56:46
Andrew Wilsonmost population is stupid, then mo you would probably have to concede that most of the population goes to college is also stupid, which means the standards have been lowered there so that they can pass college, right? Uh she says 47% of