Andrew Wilson vs. Naima From Jubilee (Feminist, Leftist, Anti-Trump) | Whatever Debates #20
Date: 2025-05-20
Duration: 3h 48m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Naima (Jubilee)(guest)
SPEAKER_05Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:01:36
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Naima (USC senior). Topic: feminism.
01:13:30
Key MomentAndrew fully articulates Force Doctrine
01:43:48
Key MomentNaima: men have no obligation to enforce women's rights. Andrew claims full Force Doctrine concession.
01:43:54
QuoteAndrew walks away to smoke — Naima thinks it's rage quit, he says it's standard break
02:19:42
Key MomentOlive jar challenge: neither can open greasy olive jar. Crew member Jake opens it.
02:34:54
Key MomentBrian fact-checks Trail of Tears: ~4-6K deaths, not millions as Naima claimed
Topics Discussed
00:10:09
Force Doctrine
Andrew's core argument: men monopolize force, women must appeal to men for rights.
00:10:10
Voting Rights/Limited Democracy
Andrew argues for limited democracy. Naima defends universal suffrage.
01:17:30
Bodily Autonomy
Whether inherent rights exist or all rights are force-enforced privileges.
02:14:00
Feminism Outcomes
Andrew: feminism caused no-fault divorce, single motherhood, declining birth rates.
02:34:00
Colonization Debate
Trail of Tears fact-checked: ~4-6K Cherokee, not millions.
03:19:00
Sex-Segregated Schools
Andrew proposes 2-hour school days. Naima calls it segregationist.
Transcript
Page 1 of 4
00:00:16
Brian AtlasWelcome to a debate edition of the Whatever podcast coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. A few quick announcements before the show begins. This podcast is viewerupported. Heavy YouTube demonetization, so please
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00:01:13
Brian Atlasthe description. We're also live on Twitch right now. Pull up another tab. Go to twitch.tv/w whatever and drop us a follow on the prime subub if you have one. Quick disclaimer. The views expressed by the guests do not
00:01:24
Brian Atlasnecessarily reflect the views of the Whatever channel. Without further ado, I will introduce our two guests. I'm joined today by Andrew Wilson, host of
00:01:34
Brian AtlasThe Crucible. He's a Blood Sports debater and political commentator. Also joining us today is Naima. She's a senior at University of Southern
00:01:45
Brian AtlasCalifornia. She's a political commentator and content creator. The topic today is feminism. You will each have up to a five-minute opening statement, and then the rest of the show
00:01:57
Brian Atlaswill just be open conversation, possible prompt changes, and we're going to have breaks for messages from the audience. Andrew, you're going to go first with your opening statement. So, please go ahead.
00:02:09
Andrew WilsonYeah. So, my position on feminism is that um it's terrible for society. Um, as we go through this, I'll kind of flesh that view out using what I call force doctrine so that you can
00:02:20
Andrew Wilsonunderstand why I have that same set. But force doctrine basically just states that uh while feminism definitionally is the movement towards egalitarianism and equity for the removal of patriarchal
00:02:32
Andrew Wilsonsystems, that feminist will always have to appeal to patriarchy in order to try to remove patriarchy, which is ironically hilarious. But a few things I wanted to get to first is that I went
00:02:43
Andrew Wilsonthrough several hours of my opponent's content, and I've actually not ever seen her make a single argument for anything that she believes. Not I've seen her assert a lot of things, but not an
00:02:55
Andrew Wilsonargument for anything she actually believes. So, I have some notes here, and I was hoping she could help me clear some of these things up. From the surrounded September 8th, 2024 episode, she says, "Abortion is murder." uh or
00:03:06
Andrew WilsonI'm sorry, the prompt is abortion is murder and should be illegal. She asked for a viability time for 20 weeks and thinks abortion before 20 weeks is acceptable. She says the fetus is technically classified as a parasite.
00:03:18
Andrew WilsonThe fetus cannot uh exist outside of the womb and therefore is a parasite. The actual definitions don't support this. an organism living in, on, or with another organism in order to obtain
00:03:29
Andrew Wilsonnutrients, grow, multiply. Uh, that would be an actual definition of a parasite or someone or something that resembles a biological parasite living off of, being dependent on, or exploring
00:03:40
Andrew Wilsonanother. Um, fetuses can't fit that definitionally. Fetus is the same species. Biological parasites are classified as other, not the same
00:03:49
Andrew Wilsonspecies. Also, u mutual biology. Mothers and fetus co co-adapt and mothers are actually healthier while they're pregnant. So, it can't really be a
00:03:59
Andrew Wilsonparasite. Um, and um parasites are rarely temporary and fetuses are. So, and none of that fits the criteria for a parasite. On her video, Middle Ground,
00:04:09
Andrew Wilsonprogressives versus moderates, and this is from January 19th, uh she says the prompt is does the far left uh make Democrats lose elections? She said Kamla
00:04:20
Andrew Wilsonwas not progressive enough, not far-left enough. Um, she talks about how women's rights are being stripped, but didn't give any examples of what those are. So, I'm actually really confused about um a lot of her positions, including in her
00:04:33
Andrew Wilsonrematch against Charlie Kirk, that happened March 5th, 2025, why DEI is unlawful. Um, her re her rebuttal to Kirk was bizarre. It just had something to do with there's no racial factor in
00:04:44
Andrew WilsonDEI, even though Kirk gave a pretty good rebuttal for that. So, I'd like her to kind of dive into what she actually believes within within the paradigm of feminism. Um, but for my positive
00:04:56
Andrew Wilsonposition, I will say I have a logical argument called force doctrine. And my logical argument called force doctrine refutes the feminist ideology and it
00:05:06
Andrew Wilsonjust works as I explained before um that uh patriarchy must always be appealed to in order to try to eliminate patriarchy. Women can't enforce their own rights collectively and men can. Therefore,
00:05:20
Andrew Wilsonwomen always have to appeal collectively to men for their rights. So, you're always going to essentially have a patriarchy through forced doctrine and there's nothing women can do about that. So, I'm willing to logically go through
00:05:30
Andrew Wilsonthat and have it examined rigorously, but I'm hoping that with that um you can also describe your positions so that I understand them better. All right. Thank you, Andrew. If you'd
00:05:42
Naima (Jubilee)like to give your opening statement. Yes. Thank you, Andrew. Um, you know, I do think that that is an interesting claim that I don't, you know, state my arguments because I've actually been watching some of your content and I've
00:05:54
Naima (Jubilee)noticed kind of a similar trend as well within these debates where you will ask your debate or questions but will not put forth your argument, including in your opening statement. You know, you state force doctrine, but instead of
00:06:06
Naima (Jubilee)elaborating on it, you consistently talk about what I've talked about, which only one of those topics was actually related to feminism. Now, when it comes to my actual beliefs, I think my goal and my hope for this country is to see us
00:06:18
Naima (Jubilee)advance as a society. I would like to see everyone have bodily autonomy and I would like for the vast majority of people, if not everyone, to have their basic needs met. And I would like to mitigate any unnecessary conflict
00:06:29
Naima (Jubilee)between the citizens of this country. Genuinely, I think that my main issue with the manosphere and with your force doctrine principle is that it promotes and spreads divisiveness against men and
00:06:41
Naima (Jubilee)women. It promotes and spreads violence against men and women. And it exaggerates and focuses the difference the differences between the genders. I think that men and women I mean I don't think I know men and women are the same
00:06:53
Naima (Jubilee)species. We are 99% genetically similar. And the obsessive need to define and separate people based on one singular chromosome is doing both men and women a disservice socially, economically, and
00:07:04
Naima (Jubilee)politically, which we can get into. Um I'm ready to open it up if you want to. Yeah. I guess actually I'd love to start with a question for you. Um I would like
00:07:15
Naima (Jubilee)to go back to the force doctrine theory if we can. I just kind of want to understand more. I've know you've talked a lot about the equal force objection in the past. You've said men have
00:07:27
Naima (Jubilee)essentially a monopoly on force. Correct. If I'm correct. Okay, perfect. Um and do you want me to walk you through the argument? No, I'm I'm going to elaborate. Thank you. And that rights exist through physical force and that our legal system is based on physical
00:07:39
Naima (Jubilee)force. Mhm. Um, so I guess I kind of just want to hear you elaborate on that now if you're welcome. So you want my argument for the force doctrine? Yep. Okay. So what force doctrine is saying
00:07:50
Andrew Wilsonis very simple that feminism if you at least agree with my definition and it seems broadly feminists do. Yeah. That it's a movement towards egalitarianism and equity and the removal of
00:08:00
Andrew Wilsonpatriarchy. They if you can't have an oppressed class without an oppressor class, at least not from the Marxist feminist view. In the case if women are being oppressed, they're not being oppressed by wolves. They're being
00:08:12
Andrew Wilsonoppressed by men. Right? So if that's the case, then my argument to them is that whatever you believe this oppression is, you will actually have to appeal to men
00:08:24
Andrew Wilsonin order to either relinquish whatever this oppression is uh or um concede to whatever it is that they want because collectively women actually cannot overthrow any patriarchal systems. They
00:08:36
Andrew Wilsonrely on the force of men. And so if men anytime they want to decide to remove women's rights, there's actually not anything women can do about it. But the opposition is not true. The opposite is not true. Women cannot collectivize and
00:08:47
Naima (Jubilee)take away men's rights. Okay. So, are you essentially saying that women do not deserve the right to fight for their own freed? Yeah, that's an a claim. I'm not making an a claim. I'm trying to get us to the
00:08:59
Andrew Wilsondescriptor first. So, instead of making a prescriptive statement, I'm starting with a descriptive statement. What is true? And then we can worry about what it's what should be true after we can determine what is true. Okay. But I'm trying to see like structurally how does
00:09:12
Andrew Wilsonthat work in the real world? Are you saying that women should not fight for their rights because they Listen, let's back up so I can distinguish two things. Okay. Is ought right. I'm not trying to
00:09:24
Andrew Wilsonbridge the is ought gap. I'm trying to start with a descriptive claim. So if if the descriptive claim is true, then we can move through the to the prescriptive side of it. But right now, you would
00:09:36
Naima (Jubilee)either need to agree with me that descriptively I'm right or that descriptively I'm wrong. I can't agree with you to say that descriptively you're right until you apply what you're saying in theory to the practice of
00:09:47
Naima (Jubilee)modern day society. How does your equal force objection how does this principle work in society? What are you saying in terms Yeah. I think that because that is
00:10:00
Andrew Wilsonthe case that men deserve to have uh various privileges that they're not given in society. Okay. which they should be given in society. So what are the privileges that you think that men should have that women should not have?
00:10:10
Andrew WilsonWell, primarily I think that if you're going to look at an equalization, what I would do pre prescriptively would be to roll voting back and that's for both sexes. I think that rolling voting back
00:10:22
Andrew Wilsonfor both sexes is a good idea and have some sort of perhaps like um one house voting system or one marriage voting system or people who have done some sort of collective service to the state for a
00:10:34
Andrew Wilsonvoting system. I think that those things would all be very good systems for everybody. Now I would apply that hang on I would apply that broadly to men and I would apply that to women. I think
00:10:46
Andrew Wilsonthat right now men get the shaft because men are men are required to do a lot of jobs that women are not which keeps society going and women are not doing those
00:10:58
Andrew Wilsonthings and because of that I don't understand why it is that women can nullify their votes and disenfranchise them and most importantly vote to send them to wars they don't have to go fight
00:11:07
Andrew Wilsonin. So you would like to disenfranchise both the men and women's mostly most of them. Yes, I think would be a better idea. achieve? Well, it would be the it would achieve the same thing our founders basically wanted to achieve,
00:11:20
Naima (Jubilee)which is that they thought that you would have to have a stake in the country in order to vote. But if you live in the country and if you exist in the country and if you're being legislated by the laws that the country is making, don't you have a stake in that? No, not always. In fact, many
00:11:32
Andrew Wilsontimes you don't. Many times, many people actually get more back from the state than they put into the state. So, that's at the expense of other people. Who is that? So, there's lots of people who pay who get a ma a mass amount back from the
00:11:44
Andrew Wilsongovernment that they never pay to the government. This can happen through things like uh social security disability, things like welfare, uh things like even earned income child credit that you may receive even though you don't actually pay anything into the
00:11:57
Andrew Wilsonsystem or very little into the system. But those are it's a crime to lie on your taxes and commit. Isn't that tax fraud to claim a dependent? No, no, there's just tax fraud. I'm saying there's people who
00:12:10
Andrew Wilsonget more out of the system than they put into the system. Okay. But they're still at stake because they still live here now. Are their lives not at stake if we're legislating them? But that that wouldn't follow that because they live here, they deserve the right to vote,
00:12:22
Naima (Jubilee)though. Yes. It's I mean, no taxation without representation. That's the point of representative democracy is that everyone is represented. Then how come the founding fathers didn't give everybody the right to vote from the beginning? I mean, the founding fathers also endorsed and owned slaves. Do you
00:12:34
Andrew Wilsonagree with child slavery? Just let her finish. Go ahead. I mean the founding fathers also endorsed and own slaves. Do you believe in child slavery? So so you do realize that they could do bad thing
00:12:45
Naima (Jubilee)right I can agree that's bad thing but that has nothing relationally to do with how they set up the system of government. I mean I thought this was going to be a debate on feminism. Honestly I think that's kind of wild because it sounds like you're disenfranchising men. So who do you
00:12:58
Naima (Jubilee)think would be are you trying to I'm not disenfranch I'm not disenfranchising men. Calm down. I'll explain. If you're taking away the votes of a man because he is not um I guess landowning is that what the what's the
00:13:10
Andrew Wilsoncriteria for having a vote? I think ultimately more men would be voting because they would have more stake. So can I ask can every man go to prison? Yeah. Okay. If they commit a crime they
00:13:20
Naima (Jubilee)can go to prison. Yeah. Everyone can do that. Yes. Okay. And everyone is in this country has to abide by the laws of this country otherwise they will go to prison. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So why wouldn't
00:13:32
Naima (Jubilee)they be allowed to vote on the representatives that define those laws? If they that is a stake if you can go to prison for committing a crime that is created by the government then you do have a stake legislatively in the laws that the government creates that still
00:13:45
Andrew Wilsonwouldn't follow that you would need to vote. Yes, you would need to vote. You want to vote for the representatives that create laws that are just and fair to you. Yeah. Why? Like you could have because you could go to prison. That's a huge state. Let me show I'll show you.
00:13:55
Andrew WilsonRight. Can kings put you in prison? Yeah. Can kings also pass just laws? Sometimes maybe. Okay. So, if kings pass just laws, why do you need to vote? Well, why did we fight? No, answer the
00:14:07
Naima (Jubilee)question before you ask another one. I just answered all of yours. If a king passes just laws, why would you need to vote? Because a king can also pass unjust laws. So can legislators. Sure. But if you have a stake in that and if you're able to represent for your
00:14:20
Andrew Wilsonlegislator, you can vote a legislator out. Yeah. But you can also rebel against kings. So like that's why I'm saying your position doesn't follow. It doesn't actually follow for you to say that because you can be imprisoned inside of a nation that that somehow
00:14:33
Andrew Wilsongives you the right to vote. Well, because you have a stake. You're saying that Hang on. I'm falsifying your claim. I'm falsifying your claim. If you claim kings make just can make just laws,
00:14:45
Naima (Jubilee)right? Yes. Then I don't understand. Why would people need to vote when kings are making just laws? Well, then why would we leave the monarchy of England? If kings can make just laws, why would we leave? Well, in that case, they had you
00:14:56
Andrew Wilsonhad a nation apart that had a rebellion against the king. That's what was going on. But kings have been rebelled against historically under certain circumstances many times. So, you'd like to go back to feudalism like you don't believe in
00:15:08
Andrew Wilsondemocracy? Well, yeah, that is it. Feudalism is under a monarch. It would be called limited democracy, which is exactly what we had here. Do you think we had feudalism because most people couldn't vote here? We had limited democracy and then there were like
00:15:20
Andrew Wilsonseveral many uprisings against that limited democracy because everyone deserves uprisings really against that. The only uprising that I'm aware of in American history against America was the civil war. The civil war. The civil
00:15:32
Andrew Wilsonrights movement voting the civil rights movement. No no no the civil war wasn't about voting. Well I mean it was about the owning of cattle slaves. So not
00:15:44
Naima (Jubilee)about voting then which is also about human and civil rights but not about voting though. But voting is a civil right. I don't know. I'm not sure that I believe in this. It's about freedom and it's about representation. The point is
00:15:56
Naima (Jubilee)representation. So let's back up. That's what voting is. Voting is representation and democra. I understand. But you haven't actually made the positive case for why people need to be able to vote. People need to be able to vote because they have a stake in the legislation of
00:16:07
Naima (Jubilee)this country. If you can be imprisoned at this country, if you can be robbed of your bodily autonomy by the legislators of this country, then you should be able to have a stake in the laws that those legislators are making. Well, let's see
00:16:19
Andrew Wilsonif this makes sense. Do you agree with me that individually individual vote v voters don't actually have very much power at all? Individual voters, no, but that's the point of a collective vote. Yeah, I'm with you. So, individuals
00:16:31
Andrew Wilsonalready don't really have very much power just because they can vote, right? Sure. So isn't it the case actually that what you're advocating for is political tribalism because you don't have individual power as a voter. You
00:16:42
Andrew Wilsonactually have to tribalize with other voters in order to have any sort of collective power. Right. Well, you're taking away power from all the voters. So to answer my question, please
00:16:53
Andrew Wilsontribalism the idea that you as the individual do not have power, right? You do have to collectivize with other people, right? Okay. But how is the
00:17:03
Naima (Jubilee)answer? Yes or no? No. Yeah. Okay. No. But here's my question. How is taking away more people's votes disincentivizing political tribal? Because now I have to band with someone Because now I have to band with someone
00:17:15
Naima (Jubilee)who has a vote. I don't even get a stake. So you're saying because people don't have enough power to vote. I'm going to take what little power they do have. You're not answering my question, though. It just doesn't make sense structure. I know, but you got to answer my question. It just doesn't sound like
00:17:28
Andrew Wilsonyou believe in It sounds like you need to answer my question, though. It sounds like your question is meant to trap me because can you just answer the question, please? What's what's facious about my argument? You're saying that people do not have a stake in this
00:17:41
Andrew Wilsoncountry, therefore they do not have a right to vote. It's not what I said. What you're doing is a straw man fallacy. Can we go back to you can go back? What I said to you specifically is is what you're saying doesn't logically follow. And when I'm talking about
00:17:53
Andrew Wilsonpolitical tribalism, do you agree with me that you do if you need to have collectives to have actual political power? Are you not promoting political tribalism? If you need to have colle but
00:18:05
Naima (Jubilee)that's how voting works. It's about a majority. So then you are promoting collective political tribalism, right? So voting and then the will of the majority is essentially political tribalism is what you're saying. Well,
00:18:17
Andrew Wilsonit's not really the will of the majority. Here's what happens. No, not really. Do you understand how voting works? Do you? Yeah. Okay. Well, then tell me how it's the will of the majority when a California legislature
00:18:27
Naima (Jubilee)gets elected. Well, everyone who would like to vote can vote and then whoever the most. What about the people in Georgia wins? Well, why would a person in Georgia get to vote on So, it's not really the collective. It's the tribe,
00:18:40
Naima (Jubilee)right? But then Georgians get to vote for their So, it's a tribe then. And then all of those legislators come together. So, it's a tribe. So, it's a tribe. It's not a tri but those are called states. Yeah. And states are
00:18:52
Naima (Jubilee)voting for their own interests, right? But states will vote for the governors. Why would I get to vote for the govern listen to me? Why would I get to vote for the governor of, let's say,
00:19:02
Andrew WilsonTennessee if I don't live in Tennessee? Makes sense. Okay. So, it's almost like it's almost like these individual states, right? They vote along tribal lines for that state's particular
00:19:12
Andrew Wilsoninterest. Right. Yes. And each state has a representative collective government. Sure. In the federal government, right? You're talking about in our Senate and in our Congress, right? Great. So let's
00:19:24
Andrew Wilsonstart with this. If it is the case that you have California and Nevada, these are two states which are next to each other. You agree, right? Yes. Can these states vote against each other's interests when it comes to resources in the federal government? Yes. No. Even
00:19:36
Andrew Wilsonat the state level, they can, right? Why would they be able to at the state level? I can't vote for the Nevada governor. I can't vote for because perhaps there's something that perhaps Nevada perhaps Nevada has some type of I
00:19:48
Andrew Wilsondon't know assessed tax or something like this uh that they're able to collect which disproportionately affects Californians in some way they can do that right what law is that whatever it
00:20:00
Andrew Wilsonwould be they can does it exist or does it not exist can they do that can they do that is my question can Nevada legislate against California no they're not legislating against Listen to my question. Actually, I want you to repeat
00:20:13
Andrew Wilsonmy question so I know you actually heard it. I'm sorry. I'm not a dog. I don't Can you Can you repeat it? Well, it's called steel maning a position. Say the question. Okay. Can states vote against other states interests simply by having
00:20:24
Andrew Wilsona neighboring state? Right? Let's just say for instance that you were to have like, oh, I don't know, trucks which went between Nevada and California, right? And California took advantage of
00:20:35
Andrew Wilsonthis by raising uh taxes on gasoline, but only on the border areas where these goods came in. This disproportionately hurts Nevada truckers for some reason, right? They can do that, right? Yes,
00:20:46
Andrew Wilsonthey can do that. Okay, great. So, in California, if that was beneficial to Californians, they would basically be voting for their tribe against Nevada, right? But is that happening or just trying to use a hypothetical? No, there's tons and tons of instances where
00:20:59
Andrew Wilsondifferent states do various things, even asking for federal money in overages compared to other states for different problems. Same thing with disaster support. They definitely are all trying to support their tribe, right? Okay. So,
00:21:10
Naima (Jubilee)because states can potentially hypothetically vote against another state's interest, men and women should not have the right to No, that's not the conclusion. But that's that was your argument. Privilege is again, do you
00:21:22
Naima (Jubilee)know what a descriptor is? Sexes, one marriage voting system. Why don't you understand the difference between a descriptor and prescriptor? What did I prescribe? What you prescribed is one voting system is a voting system in which both men and women are disin what
00:21:35
Andrew WilsonI'm doing right now is I'm giving you descriptors so we can determine if it's tribalism or not because you said it's not tribalism to have collectivism and voting blocks which is insane. But what you haven't been able to answer is why
00:21:46
Andrew Wilsondisenfranchising more voters is somehow solving political tribalism. Let let her get to the end of the sentence please. Well, let me explain it the best way that I possibly can. Your worldview
00:21:57
Andrew Wilsonpromotes political tribalism. So, what happens is this. NOS's can go to our government and they can bribe them for voting blocks. And that's exactly what they do. Non-government organizations do this and lobbyists do this. And what
00:22:10
Andrew Wilsonthey do is they raid the treasury from people like you and me so that they can bribe certain portions of the electorate in order to incentivize them to collectivize. That's why black people often vote as a monolith. For instance,
00:22:20
Andrew Wilsonthey vote monolithically up to 80 90% together, especially in national hang on especially in national elections because they're promised made certain promises out of the treasury from the electorate
00:22:33
Naima (Jubilee)usually at the expense of other forms of of uh of voters. This is 100% tribalism. So, how are NOS's bribing politicians influencing who black people as
00:22:44
Naima (Jubilee)individuals choose to vote for? How do NOS's do that? I just don't understand how you're saying I mean I agree that NOS's should not be bribing and lobbyists shouldn't be bribing but instead of I mean that's what they do though, right? Okay. But
00:22:57
Naima (Jubilee)we're trying to get back to your claim that people should vote. Okay. Well, I'm responding because this is a conversation. Yeah. Sure. So, we're trying to get back to your claim that
00:23:07
Andrew Wilsonless people from both sexes should be able to vote. Yeah. No, that's not where we just were. Where were we just That's your initial. Yeah. But now you're just pivoting. Where we just were was Well, you're not letting me finish my sentence. You let me finish my sentence.
00:23:20
Naima (Jubilee)You're pivoting. We're talking right now about whether tribalism is descriptively true in your voting system. I understand that, but we're trying to get back to your initial claim because you have a very important claim to defend. You're trying to take this away from the
00:23:32
Naima (Jubilee)American people poorly. But let's get into it. Um, so NOS's bribe, lobbyists bribe, and that is impacting who and what politicians are promoting. I would agree with that statement. Would you
00:23:44
Andrew Wilsonagree with that statement? uh well not just what they're promoting but uh also they are setting the precedent for laws themselves. Okay. Yes. So they actually I would I would even argue back that
00:23:55
Andrew WilsonNOS's and private think groups write the laws in which politicians most often execute and so do bankers as well. I agree with that. So why would taking
00:24:05
Naima (Jubilee)away votes from the average American and singular citizen prevent NOS's and lobbyists from having an ability to impact and predict and create laws?
00:24:17
Andrew WilsonYeah. So if you're to if you move to stakeholder democracy, this idea that you had to have some sort of public service or something like this, it actually collectivizes down the voting pool which adds responsibility to the
00:24:28
Andrew Wilsonvoters who can then be held accountable which right now voters can't be. That's why that's why it's so important. So you're not saying can be held accountable. So you're saying how well legislators will create laws that hold
00:24:41
Andrew Wilsonthose voters accountable. The ones who have to follow them. Do you not have Well, that's not you're being held accountable. So it is being held accountable. No. No. So right now under tribalism, you can get laws passed which
00:24:51
Andrew Wilsonaffect me but benefit you. I can't go like hold you somehow accountable for that. But that's how a majority voting work. That's how I know. Which is why I want limited democracy where we can
00:25:02
Andrew Wilsonactually hold people accountable. Want to be in charge. How would I be in charge if it's stakeholder democracy? Well, you said one marriage voting system. That could be one way of doing it. Yes. Okay. What are the other ways
00:25:13
Andrew Wilsonof doing it? Another good way would be public service. So, whoever public service perhaps up to 3 to 5 years unpaid or military service would be good. So, during this public service in
00:25:24
Naima (Jubilee)which people are go working 3 to 5 years unpaid, how are they paying for food and groceries and housing? Yeah. So, the state would take care of that just like they do in military. The state would take care of that like they do in the military. And how do you plan on getting
00:25:37
Andrew Wilsonthat passed? What does that have to do with anything? Well, because let's say I could never get it passed. We're arguing the ideology of this system. What does that have to do with anything? What's the point in creating an ideology that will never work out? How you going to
00:25:48
Andrew Wilsonget Marxism passed? You're not. So, are you aren't you a Marxist part? But you're a Marxist, right? How did you know that? Well, I don't know. That's what your videos seem to imply that you believe in Marxist feminism. and Marxist. Oh, I don't know. Are you a
00:26:00
Andrew Wilsonsocialist on a certain level? So, okay. How you going to get socialist? Like, that's silly. That us making the comparison contrast between like socialism, capitalism has no bearing on whether or not I could somehow get this passed or have some plan to get it
00:26:13
Andrew Wilsonpassed. Okay. I'm arguing about the ideology here. Do you want to understand my belief or do you just want to guess? Well, hang on. What does I have to do? You know what I just said though? Well, I mean, you just called me a Marxist. Call me a socialist. Well, if you're not a Marxist, I said we're doing a
00:26:25
Andrew Wilsoncomparison contrast of worldviews and ideology. for doing contrast worldview and ideology. It's a nonsequator to ask me, well, how you going to get it passed? What does that have to do with anything? Well, why would you create a worldview that fundamentally cannot work
00:26:37
Andrew Wilsonin practice? That sounds like it's not a worldview that fundamentally cannot work in practice. Even if I couldract even if I couldn't prescriptively tell you like the next political chain of things we do to get there has nothing to do with
00:26:49
Andrew Wilsonwhether or not the worldview in practice would work. I do you have any practical guesses for how we could apply this to a modern day society? Well, I just Yeah. Yeah. I just told you how we would apply it. You would have stakeholder democracy. Okay. So that's just so one
00:27:03
Andrew Wilsonday we're just going to flip a switch and have that. Like I don't understand. No. What do you mean? Okay. You could have an amendment for it. You could repeal the 19th amendment. You could So you want to repeal the right to vote or just replace it? It wouldn't be. What
00:27:14
Andrew WilsonI'm talking about is universal suffrage. You keep on making a conflation in terms. You think that uh because I say universal suffrage that means no suffrage. I'm talking about limited suffrage. So, who gets to decide who gets the right to vote? Didn't I
00:27:28
Naima (Jubilee)literally just tell you who gets to decide who or who gets to vote? Okay. So, everyone who participates in this public service gets the right. That
00:27:38
Andrew Wilsoncould be one way to do it. Yes. Okay. Um and that anyone could do that if you wanted to. Yeah. People could do it if they're willing to give up x amount of years of their lives on for unpaid service so that they could then vote. But it's not unpaid service because the
00:27:52
Andrew Wilsongovernment would be paying for their food and their housing. Yeah. But you wouldn't be getting anything additional to that. Okay. Well, why not just have civil servants who are already because civil servants have specific jobs to do like, you know, working at the DMV and
00:28:04
Andrew Wilsonstuff like that and working in the social security office. So, you're basically saying anyone who does community service should get the right to vote. Now, some sort of civil occupational service under the state. That could be like civil firefighting work maybe. Uh it could be civil
00:28:17
Andrew Wilsonparamedic work. It could be all there's all sorts of different things you can look at for uh stakeholder democracy when we've seen it applied around the world. It's been somewhat successful. And do the laws apply to everyone in the
00:28:27
Naima (Jubilee)society or just the people who still apply to everyone? Yeah. Okay. So, how can you create and apply a law to people who are not represented? I just don't understand morally. How do you justify?
00:28:40
Andrew WilsonThere's nothing immoral about it. There's nothing immoral about. I mean, but that's kind of like I would say it's more immoral. Why is it moral for an 18-year-old to nullify the vote of a 41-year-old if the 18-year-old doesn't even know what they're voting for? How's that moral? Well, because the
00:28:53
Naima (Jubilee)18-year-old is still subject to the laws of the state. Yeah, but they don't even know what they're voting for. Can an 18-year-old go to jail for 20 years? A 16-year-old can. Should they be able to vote? 16-year-olds can't go to jail. Yes, they can. 16-year-olds can go to
00:29:06
Naima (Jubilee)jail for life. Should they be able to vote? I mean, no. But why would why not? The laws apply to them, though. Why would a 16-year-old be going? Hang on. I don't Because he murdered someone. Okay, that's fair. I mean, if you murder someone, that's a whole So, I don't
00:29:17
Andrew Wilsonunderstand. Why can't he vote? The laws apply to him. Why can't he vote? Yeah, but we all understand that. We all understand it's not an argument. Why does a 16-year-old get to vote even though all the lies laws apply to the 16-year-old? Why does he get to vote?
00:29:30
Naima (Jubilee)Not all the laws apply. They start in juvenile detention and then at 18 they get the right. So, laws apply to 16. But you're retrieded at 18. So, laws apply to 16y olds. Some laws, of course. Yes. Okay, great. Why can't they vote then?
00:29:43
Naima (Jubilee)So babies should get the right to vote. That's my question to you. That makes no sense. Exactly. So why do we limit it to 18? Well, that's the age that we've defined as being a legal adult. That's the age that we as a country have universally agreed with our right to
00:29:54
Andrew Wilsonvote is Yeah. But what makes that a good idea? Just because you arbitrarily Yeah. Just because you arbitrarily say, for instance, that uh because you're 18 and you're an adult, like you can't buy
00:30:06
Andrew Wilsoncigarettes, you can't buy beer, you can't rent a car, but you're an adult and now you can vote in the participation of democracy. At least raise it. So, you'd like to raise it? At
00:30:17
Andrew Wilsonleast raise it. So, you would like to universally a raise the age to vote. I think that would be a better idea than like not No, no, no. What I said is at least do that. But the thing is like
00:30:28
Andrew Wilsonyou're actually inconsistent here. You your whole argument is to say if laws affect people, they should have a right to vote. But we have an entire cast of people from the age 17 down who laws apply to and can't vote. And you just
00:30:40
Naima (Jubilee)are like you shug that off like you didn't contradict yourself. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with brain development. But we've all like you have to have not fully developed till what 25 according to you have a society in which you don't have an age that someone becomes a leader. I agree. But why
00:30:54
Naima (Jubilee)couldn't you have a society in which you had stakeholder democracy? It would be the same logic. So if you're saying that we should not disenfranchise children, why would you then disenfranchise people who are legal adults? What do you When
00:31:05
Andrew Wilsondid I ever make the claim that I wanted children to be able to vote? You just said that if everyone should have No, I told you that your view is inconsistent. If it is the case propositionally, you
00:31:16
Andrew Wilsonsay, Andrew, if laws apply to people, they should be able to vote. Except, oh, I don't know. Everybody's 17 and under. That's inconsistent. Hang on. Hang on. Apply to children. It's inconsistent and a contradiction. But laws do apply to children. What about the laws that
00:31:29
Naima (Jubilee)don't? What about the laws that don't? What about the laws where you're 17 years old and you could be tried as an adult? Well, those are to protect like public freedom. I mean, but everyone loses civil liberties when they are a danger to the public. Yeah. But do you
00:31:42
Andrew Wilsondo you understand that you're you're making a contradiction when you say if laws should apply to all all people should should have a right to vote because they have to they have laws which can be applied. They can be sent to prison was your example. That would
00:31:55
Andrew Wilsonhave to include everyone under the age of 18. But people under the age of 18 don't go to adult prison. Yes, they do all the time. Yes, they do. That is that is you want me to give you sources of 16
00:32:06
Naima (Jubilee)17 year olds tries adults and sent to adult prisons? Okay. But it that's like an exception for exclusively horrific crimes. I mean those are violent offenders. Does the law apply to them or not to violent offenders? If you are a
00:32:19
Naima (Jubilee)threat to public safety, yes. Everyone who if the law applies to them and they can be sent to jail, then by your logic, they should be able to vote, which means you're in contradiction. To those offenders, they are sent to juvenile detention centers until they turn 18 and
00:32:32
Andrew Wilsonthen they are sent to an adult prison. They are still sent often to adult centers, even at 17 to adult prisons. You can be sentenced as an adult, but you can't be sent to an adult prison at
00:32:43
Andrew Wilsonthe age of 16. This would depend widely on the state that you're in. It's not rigorously enforced across the board like you think. There's not like I don't think there's federal laws which say this, but even if it were the case, I'll
00:32:55
Andrew Wilsonjust grant it. I'll even grant the entire thing. It still wouldn't matter. Laws apply to them. They can still be sent to prison. they fit both of your criteria. Therefore, if you say they shouldn't be able to vote, your worldview's in contradiction. Well, then
00:33:08
Naima (Jubilee)I think that's wrong. I don't believe that children should be tried as adults until they have become adults. So, no laws apply to children. No. Well, then why shouldn't they be able to vote? A threat to public safety is always applies to everyone. Threats to public
00:33:21
Naima (Jubilee)safety always apply to everyone. Yeah. But why shouldn't they be able to vote if laws apply to them? That's your example. Laws apply to children, but they are not in practice punished in the same way that they apply to adults. It's applied to Can they be punished? Of course they can. Then why can't they
00:33:33
Andrew Wilsonvote? But you have to have some way to maintain societal control. Children aren't just allowed to do whatever the [ __ ] they want because they're right. You need to be able to have some sort of societal control. So this would mean necessarily disenfranchising some
00:33:46
Andrew Wilsonpeople, wouldn't it? It would mean necessarily disenfranchising children. Yes. They're not No, it would also mean disenfranchising prisoners. Do you want prisoners to vote on their right to own guns in a prison? Not their right to own guns in a prison. Well, then you're disenfranchising. think that people who
00:33:59
Naima (Jubilee)were in prison and then leave prison should then have to vote. But they're disenfranchised currently under the law, right? No, they're not. Yes, they are. If you're a felon, you can't vote. Yes. Oh, well, once they leave, yes, I do think that that's disenfranchisement.
00:34:12
Andrew WilsonAnd I think Florida just rolled that back. But what's wrong with disenfranchising like murderers for life? What's wrong with disenfranch? Well, they would be in jail for life if they No, no, no. They're out of jail. They're just felons, so they can't vote.
00:34:24
Andrew WilsonWell, they Yeah, I think that felons should be able to vote once they be able to own guns. No, cuz it's Oh, well, I don't understand. So, you're dis again, you are so inconsistent with your
00:34:34
Naima (Jubilee)disenfranchising. Do you understand what disenfranchisement should exist so long as someone is a threat to public safety? The reason why prisoners are not allowed to vote who are currently in prison is because they are a threat to public
00:34:47
Andrew Wilsonsafety. 16-year-olds aren't a threat to public safety. No, but they're children. You can't allow anyone. You can arbitrarily disenfranchise people based on the fact that you think they're not capable of making good voting decisions,
00:34:59
Andrew Wilsonright? No. A child is legally different than an adult because they can't make you can't have sex with a child. That would be because they can't make good decisions. No. Because they're legally classified as a child. Do you not understand what because they can't make
00:35:11
Naima (Jubilee)good decisions? Because they're two and three and four. They're not legally involved. So they can't make good decisions. No, they can make good decisions, but generally speaking, you can't have children vote. There is a
00:35:22
Andrew Wilsonwith you. You can't. But why why is it then that if I were to say that I only want 25y olds to vote, I would be disenfranchising? You say you only want 25 year olds to vote. You say you only
00:35:32
Andrew Wilsonwant one marriage voting system per household. You you want less of both adult men and adult. But do you understand how my view is consistent, but yours isn't? Because if we if you were to agree with me that you wanted
00:35:44
Andrew Wilsonlike, okay, Andrew, I would compromise a 25-year-old voting. You've now disenfranchised everyone from the ages of 18 through 24. a legal adult, you should be able to vote. That's my state.
00:35:54
Naima (Jubilee)If you are considered a legal adult, if you are tried as an adult, if you are allowed to buy a house, have a child, but that leads to the problem is is that that leads to political tribalism. So
00:36:07
Andrew Wilsonlike for instance, why is it a healthy society to have uh men and women who are married voting against each other? That's a terrible idea because they're both like but if a man commits a murder, is his wife does his wife go to jail for
00:36:19
Naima (Jubilee)that crime? No. No. cuz they're not the same [ __ ] person. What does that have to do with anything? If they're different people and they're both tried differently and they both have separate lives and separate bank accounts and separate bodily and physical autonomy,
00:36:31
Andrew Wilsonthen they should each get a stake in this government. No. Well, I that literally has nothing to do with what I just asked. They're not the same. So, why should they be representing? You remember how I said yes and no to your question? Can you do that for me? Remember how I was like yes and just
00:36:45
Andrew Wilsonanswered it? Can you actually do that for me, too? I don't remember that at all. You literally just asked me that question. You said if a husband's carded off to prison, does her wife go to prison? I said no. Okay. Can you do that for me too and then give your explanation because otherwise I don't
00:36:57
Andrew Wilsonknow your actual position thing and then gave the explanation. So now I'd like to know, do you think it's a good idea for wives and husbands to uh be able to vote against each other's interests? They
00:37:07
Andrew Wilsonshould both have a vote. Yes. Well, that's but they can vote against each other's interests, right? That is circumstantial. They may not. They might. Yeah. They may not. They might. I agree with that. But why is it good that that option is even there? It seems like
00:37:21
Andrew Wilsona terrible idea. Because in a representative democracy, everyone should be represented with a vote. Yeah, I get that's a descriptive truth, but you're not telling me why that should be the case. If I were to give you the counter claim here, I would say if you had like one household voting or
00:37:34
Andrew Wilsonsomething like this, it would be much more uniform and wouldn't divide families against each other. And that's exactly what the vote has done. But they're both subject to the same legislative. Like they can both be legislated independent of each other,
00:37:46
Andrew Wilsonright? No. Well, not really. One cannot at that point make a decision that doesn't affect the other one usually. Yes, I can. Not really. What I mean, Roie Wade, that only affects a woman's body, right? No. You think that if a man
00:37:59
Andrew Wilsonis married to a woman and she goes and aborts his baby, that doesn't affect him? Of course it does, but it affects him differently than his body. But it's still But that's my whole point is is that everything they do in this household is going to affect each other.
00:38:11
Andrew WilsonSure. So, you wouldn't want to promote systems which divide husbands against wives, but they're individuals. No. Are they the same person or not? This is not what's in dispute. Are they the same
00:38:22
Andrew Wilsonperson or not? Okay. No. Then why should they not each have an individual liberty? What if they get because you don't want to set up systems that divide them against each other? That's a bad idea. Marry someone who doesn't want to vote for with you. But that's no. Do you
00:38:35
Andrew Wilsonunderstand that like people's preferences change over time and there could be various reasons in which uh if you have a tribal uh type of mentality like take abortion for instance. Abortion is a great one. Uh do you think
00:38:47
Andrew Wilsonthat it's possible that women, for instance, could hold it against their husband and say things like, "Do this or I'll abort your child." They could actually do that, right? Yeah. Hypothetically, sure. Yeah. And have done that. That would be immoral. And
00:39:00
Andrew Wilsonhave done that. That would be immoral. Yeah. But but but you wouldn't say they couldn't go get the abortion, would you? Well, would you say a man can't? But hang on, hang on. Answer the question first. What? You wouldn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to do that, though, would you? Well, if it would be
00:39:13
Andrew Wilsondisenfranchising millions of other women who aren't need Yes or no, please. You wouldn't say that you you would not actually say that they should not be allowed to get the abortion, right? No,
00:39:25
Andrew WilsonI think everyone should have access to Okay. So, even if it were the case that a woman, right, was holding uh the man basically emotionally hostage with her pregnancy and said, "Do what I say or
00:39:35
Andrew WilsonI'll get an abortion." Right. You would not make any claim that she could or could not get that abortion, would you? I would make a claim that what she's doing is immoral, but I wouldn't make a claim that because should anything
00:39:46
Naima (Jubilee)happen to a woman who does that? Yeah, I think I mean that's blackmailing and it's not blackmail. I think on a level it's emotional blackmail. I think you should be able to What should happen? Should they go to jail? I mean maybe pay
00:39:58
Andrew Wilsondamages or a fine. A fine. Yeah. How much should the fine be? I don't know. 200 bucks. How much is an abortion to They' be the same as an abortion. Can I ask you a question? So So just to get this right. Well, I want to finish this real quick and then we can move back.
00:40:11
Andrew WilsonWell, no, you can't till I finish the inquiry. I'm not going to answer your question, but but you can inquire back. I just want to finish this inquiry, the line of inquiry. That's all. So, just to
00:40:20
Andrew Wilsonmake sure I got this right, you have now said that the tribal voting does indeed uh pit husband against wife has a potential to do so. Right. And I've even conceded to specific examples of where
00:40:33
Andrew Wilsonit would be in a woman's interest to vote against her husband to have a right to do something which could be used against him later. And then said, well, the punishment should be like, oh, maybe she pays a fine if something like that happens. And you how are you going to
00:40:45
Naima (Jubilee)convince people that that's a better system than one household voting? That's a terrible system because then the leader of that household or the head of that household has control over the right and the will of every single person in that household. You're fundamentally denying people free will.
00:40:59
Naima (Jubilee)They're not allowed to. Yes, they are. Because if they're fundamental denying them of free will, huh? Because if they're both legislated by the same government and one of them has no say in who is elected into that government, but
00:41:10
Andrew Wilsonstill because you're still free by law, but you're still impacted by laws. So what? You're being impacted by laws when you're 17. They can't vote. You have a consistency issue. Same extent as an 18-year-old. Not at the same extent.
00:41:22
Naima (Jubilee)They can have it to the same extent as an 18-year-old in very rare exceptions. But you're But they can then. So you're disenfranchising people. But look at you. You're around the fringe. You're fighting on an exception. We're talking about the general population. Even in the general population talking about
00:41:35
Andrew Wilsonmurderers. I'm not talking about school shootings. I don't think it's generally speaking good idea to let 18year-olds, 19year-olds, 20-year-olds to vote to disenfranchise the votes of people who are politically informed
00:41:45
Andrew Wilsonbecause they're being used as a leverage voting block for elitists. And that's what's actually happening. What's actually happening was what you just said. You know, NOS's and lobbyists are
00:41:56
Andrew Wilsonlobbying Congress to get various things passed and what they do is they try to leverage the votes uh from a tribalist uh purview in order to get the things
00:42:07
Andrew Wilsonthat they want, right? And 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds are highly impressionable, right? So, we're 22, 23, 24, 25 year olds highly impressionable. And one way that you could eliminate this idea that
00:42:18
Andrew Wilsonthey could be gone after by the parasitic nos who run things is by simply liming limiting the ability to vote to people who have such a political interest that they actually do social
00:42:29
Andrew Wilsonservice for up to 5 years so that then we can trust them with the right to vote. Okay. I have two statements. Can you let me get through them? Sure. Okay. So here's number one.
00:42:40
Naima (Jubilee)Um I agree that lobbying generally is bad. I'm not here for NOS's. I don't think anyone really is. I mean, the whole point of why we don't like them is because we want to be represented by our
00:42:50
Naima (Jubilee)legislators fairly and accurately and we don't want it to be the in the control of a private interest group. So, lobbying is bad. Yes. Generally, I think that lobbyists and NOS's are not good.
00:43:02
Naima (Jubilee)But what I don't understand is if that's the issue, why not ban NGOs? Why not have a platform that's standing against NOS's and lobbyist? I think that'd be something great if you did that. That'd be awesome. Yeah. So this is a great
00:43:14
Andrew Wilsonquestion but here's the problem right this is the leverage of tribalism and why you can't really do that. So on social issue on social issues right there are nos out there for instance who
00:43:26
Andrew Wilsonhave a vested interest in abortions being legal right this goes out into the social ethos and now we're battling over the social issue we have become tribal right we become tribal
00:43:38
Andrew Wilsonthen you have nos who battle against it let's say this social issue they also are making a ton of money off of the counter battle let's say also utilizing political tribalism the whole idea here
00:43:50
Andrew Wilsonis divisive. Tribalism is what enables NOS's to begin with. They make a ton of money off of it, especially off of race hustling and DEI. So then again, why not just ban NOS's and lobbyists and allow everyone to still have a vote in a
00:44:03
Naima (Jubilee)representative? I'm giving you the descriptor. I think it's hilarious that you keep calling democracy tribalism. It it leads it leads to tribalism. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, full democracy leads to tribalism. There's no way around it.
00:44:15
Naima (Jubilee)Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So does sports. Sure. Should we ban sports? No. Why would you ban sports? That has that's totally nonsequiter. It makes no sense. Why would you ban a huge percentage of the
00:44:28
Andrew Wilsonpopulation from voting? Because I would want to avoid political tribalism so that elitist can't exploit lowinformation voters, which they do right now in order to enslave the planet. So you're basically saying that
00:44:40
Andrew Wilsonpeople are too stupid to have the right to vote. Yes. That's dumb, dude. Don't you agree with that? Yeah, of course I think people are stupid. Well, then what are you arguing with me about? If I want a right to vote, then I should give them
00:44:52
Andrew Wilsonthe right to vote. Why? But that's But listen, think about what you just said. Yeah, dude. I agree that people are too stupid to vote, but give them the right to vote anyway. I don't think people are too stupid to vote. So, they're too
00:45:03
Andrew Wilsonstupid to function, but they're smart. Come on. You think that people who go and generally cast a ballot are high information voters or they barely even know what the hell they're talking about? I mean, do you have a statistic
00:45:15
Andrew Wilsonon how many of them are? You could do street polls. A lot of people have no idea what's even going on with the issues. A lot of people are just bust to poll booths. They get bribed to do it. This happens on both sides of the aisle. Like, how many times have you seen
00:45:28
Andrew Wilsoncanvasing campaigns who go out there and they're canvasing? They knock on doors that people don't even know what the hell they're talking about. So, what you think we should do an IQ test for everyone to have their That's been suggested, right? But I have a better
00:45:39
Andrew Wilsonplan than an IQ test. I would not disenfranchise a person from being able to vote because they have like an average IQ. Yeah, what I would do is disenfranchise a person to vote if they were low information. One way I could
00:45:51
Andrew Wilsonfind out if they were really politically motivated is if they sacrificed years of their lives to the state in order to get that right to vote. So, you want to punish people for being stupid. Uh, no.
00:46:01
Andrew WilsonI just don't want them to nullify well-informed votes from people who are smart and on the issues and understand the issues. But taking away someone's vote would be punishing them in a sense. It's not punishing them. It's actually
00:46:13
Andrew Wilsonstopping them from punishing themselves and the rest of society because they're easily exploited by social elites. That's fair. I mean, but why not then just target education? Like, why not
00:46:23
Andrew Wilsonthen? We spend 5% of the entire GDP of the United States on education. It's the highest anywhere in the world. And we have some of the dumbest people on planet Earth. Our literacy rate is
00:46:36
Andrew Wilsonbarely, you know what the literacy rate is? Yeah, it's garbage. It's trash. And we spend 5% the biggest GDP on planet earth. We spend five total% of our GDP on education. And you think that
00:46:47
Andrew Wilsoneducation's going to solve the problem of the low information. The issue is that people are stupid. Help them be smarter. There's a lot of that is is a mixture of genes and environment and nourishment and all sorts of different
00:46:59
Andrew Wilsonthings. It's like you can't this whole progressive idea environment and nourishment. then why not this whole stupid progressive idea of like you just can just educate people into whatever it
00:47:11
Andrew Wilsonis that it's like no you really can't like there's a lot of people who are just going to be [ __ ] janitors. Okay. There's a lot of Yeah. Okay. There's a lot of people who are just going to be
00:47:22
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] janitors and who are just going to be [ __ ] toilet bowl cleaners and who are just going to be [ __ ] bartenders and are really not meant to build [ __ ] rocket ships. Okay. No,
00:47:33
Naima (Jubilee)but they're still subject to laws against frustrating, but it's just a fact. If I want free will and they want and you want free will and we deserve the right to vote, then they do. No, you're not eliminating free will by
00:47:45
Andrew Wilsonthis. You're protecting the rest of society from low information information voters destroying their lives. Like, do you really think Let me ask you someone else's free will. Let me ask you this. If you were to Yeah, but you're not
00:47:58
Andrew Wilsonreally doing that. What you're doing a vote is an exercise in free will. Let me ask you this. If you had to choose, right, for your family. Sure. And you knew that you could move them to a place where there was a bunch of people who
00:48:10
Andrew Wilsonwere highly informed on political processes in the local community. Or you can move them to a place where people didn't give a [ __ ] right? Which place would you prefer them to be? I would prefer them to be in the higher, of course. Right. At the place where the people are the most informed. Speaking
00:48:23
Andrew Wilsonof which, my mother's claiming here screener. Sorry, Mom. Love you. Now, if if you were able to if these people were able to cast votes and nullify all of the votes of you highinformation voters,
00:48:34
Andrew Wilsonright, wouldn't it actually be better for them and for you to disenfranchise their voting so that you guys could actually vote on political and policy issues that made sense? Well, I don't
00:48:46
Andrew Wilsonthink that stupid people are nullifying all of the votes of smart people. Really? Think about what you just said. Can you think about think about what you just do? You think there's more stupid people
00:48:58
Andrew Wilsonor smart people in this country? Yeah, that's probably more. Okay. So, you really don't think stupid people are nullifying the votes of smart people on a certain level. Yeah. Because at the same time, they still deserve free will.
00:49:10
Andrew WilsonI can't really They still have free will? They don't because they are still subject to law. Voting is a privilege. If you go to Australia and you commit a crime, can you go to jail in Australia?
00:49:21
Naima (Jubilee)Yeah. But you can't vote in Australia, right? Sure. So, you see how that makes no sense. Like what you're saying makes no sense. You travel to another country and endanger people. Like that's a threat. You're not even endangering people. If you're just like drunk in
00:49:33
Naima (Jubilee)public, you can be arrested. That is a threat to public safety. Public intoxication is a threat to public. That doesn't mean you're going to actually do anything wrong, right? But you could. Yeah. Or or I mean, drunken people are habitually statistically more violent. Or you could break some public
00:49:46
Andrew Wilsonordinance, right? You could break some public ordinance you didn't know about. Like you're on a beach, right? and you're in your shorts and it was supposed to be t-shirts and shorts, you know, something like this. Yeah, but breaking public ordinances doesn't lead to jail time. It does if you don't pay the fine. Well, then you should pay the
00:50:00
Andrew Wilson[ __ ] fine. You see what I mean, though? So, you are subject to those laws and you are subject to imprisonment based on those laws. And if that's the case, you can't vote in those countries. Okay? But you're not a citizen of that country. You're still a citizen of this
00:50:11
Andrew Wilsoncountry. If you are a citizen, you live here and you are subject to the laws of this country for your entire life from birth to death. You should have Why do you want Why do you want dumb people to disenfranchise your well-informed vote?
00:50:23
Andrew WilsonThat makes no sense. Not only that, you say that you're actually emboldening them with their free will, right? It's like that's so silly because ultimately these people who are politically low information, they're so low information,
00:50:35
Naima (Jubilee)you're allowing them to get taken advantage of. Of course, I don't want dumb people to disenfranchise my vote, but I don't think that the solution to that is a one marriage voting system or a you have to do public service for 5 years to have a give me an alternative. But can't dumb people do that, too?
00:50:48
Andrew WilsonLike, couldn't a dumb person just do some [ __ ] community service for 5 years and then get paid? I mean, like, there are dumb people in the army. Listen, I agree with you that there can be some stupid people who get through the system, but they're not going to be
00:51:00
Andrew Wilsonprobably low information. You're not going to go through 5 years of civil service like that for the purpose of being able to vote and be low information or you wouldn't do it. You have an interest. That's what the whole point is. Well, I mean, if your housing
00:51:13
Andrew Wilsonand your food is paid for, I think there are a lot of people who'd be interested in that. the army. I mean, that's like exactly in the army, you have to take the the army, you have to take an ASBA test and you have to score X amount of a score in order to even be placed in
00:51:25
Andrew Wilsonthose things. Big dog. My boyfriend's a vet. He talks about some dumb [ __ ] in the army. Sure, there's dumb people in the army. But so they would, but to qualify for certain jobs, you can't be. And for civil service or something like this, you can do intelligence tests or things like that.
00:51:38
Naima (Jubilee)So, you're basically saying there should be an IQ test and only those who would like to be civil servants who pass that IQ test. Well, I think you should probably implement an IQ test for the military, too, which they do. Yeah, but
00:51:49
Andrew Wilsonpeople suck at I mean, but they do. But they do. Unless it's in wartime and they're like, "Okay, well, uh, we just you just need a body in here and then they'll grab anybody off the street." But yeah, can we ask right now? I want
00:52:00
Brian Atlasto confirm that. Of course. Aiden, do you do IQ tests for the military? Yeah. I like Wait, do you is you want boyfriend reveal? Oh, sure. Wait. Oh, go
00:52:13
Andrew Wilsonthe go. It's okay. Just go around that way. They aren't playing. Yeah, there are people who are there who are dumb. That's true. But they Here, baby. Come here. Come here first. If you can just kind of like I've heard of that. It's called a cat five waiver, right? They give them a cap five waiver. Talking
00:52:26
SPEAKER_00about category five waiverss. I'm talking about Can you just baby come here? Shalom. Not shalom. Um, in terms of like people in the army and IQ test like I've taken the ASVAB, it is not a
00:52:37
SPEAKER_00very difficult test and a lot of people get their ASVABS taken for them. I knew guys in the army who were like medically diagnosible with metal deficiencies and were still in the army doing jobs that in theory required a certain level of
00:52:50
SPEAKER_00mental faculty. Sure. Yeah. The system can get gamed but those are exceptions not the rule. I wouldn't really go that far to be honest with you. And then also in terms of your you don't think the majority of
00:53:01
SPEAKER_00people are stupid or in the army are stupid do you? I think that there are a great number of people who join the army because they want a place to live and food which is the system you just described and that that's pretty much independent of intelligence. They seem to be joining the army based around
00:53:14
Andrew Wilsonpatriotism, the ability to get paid, the ability to do things like that. What's that? When were you in the army? I was in the army for a very limited amount of time years and years ago. How long was that very limited amount of time if you don't let me ask? Um it was it wasn't
00:53:26
Andrew Wilsonvery about a year. About a year. So what happened? Well, it doesn't it doesn't matter what happened. Oh, but we're talking about service, man. What about it? So, you want to uh disenfranchise people based on military service? I actually know why most What are you
00:53:39
Andrew Wilsontalking about? How would I disenfranchise them based on military service? It would be the opposite. You're requiring people to serve. No, it wouldn't require them to serve in the army. Literally didn't say that. I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I literally
00:53:52
Naima (Jubilee)didn't say that. Thank you for your help. I thank you. Justice. So, now we've established that people in the army can very much be stupid. So nobody ever disputed you can have stupid people in the army. Okay. So again, we're
00:54:05
Naima (Jubilee)trying to go back. We're trying to figure out how system would work in terms of those who are participating in some sort of civil service. Yeah. So you would have some type of civil service,
00:54:16
Andrew Wilsonright? Which a person would participate in for at least 5 years. Five years? Yes. Unpaid. Yes. Unpaid. That's ridiculous. Why do you think that the person who participated in it for 5
00:54:28
Naima (Jubilee)years unpaid would really want to be politically informed by the end of that? Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. That's five years of not having like that's 5 years of like housing is paid for service
00:54:41
Andrew Wilsonguarantees citizenship. So can I ask who's paying for 5 years of millions of people participating in a civil Well, chances would be pretty good. But it wouldn't be millions or at least not hundreds of millions of people
00:54:53
Naima (Jubilee)participating in such a system. You would like to limit the voting block in this country to less than there's 430 million people in this country and you'd like to limit it to 330 million hundreds of millions. It's 330 million in the United States. I think 336 million or
00:55:07
Naima (Jubilee)something. Regardless, you would still like to limit it to I misspoke. My bad. But you would still like to limit it to less than You would like to limit it to hundreds of thousands of people. Yeah. You think it's fair for hundreds of thousands of speak people to speak on
00:55:19
Naima (Jubilee)behalf of 360 million people? Do you think it's fair right now to have 100 senators do that? No. But we still vote for the senators for the senator. Do you really think you're getting They don't just walk up and say, "Hello, sir. I
00:55:30
Andrew Wilsonwould think you're really getting political representation inside of a state like New York with two people." I don't live in New York. I know. But
00:55:41
Andrew Wilsoninside the state of New York, do you really think the state of New York is getting adequate political representation on Capitol Hill with two [ __ ] people? Well, that's why you have the Senate and the House and the and the House. Two people who are your
00:55:53
Andrew Wilsonsenator. You really think every state gets two? 100 people are representing 330 million people. At the very top, it's one person who's representing 330 million people. So, you advocating that
00:56:05
Andrew Wilsonwe shouldn't have government? No. What I'm saying to you is that like it's very silly for me to look at an argument like you're making and say, "Oh my god, 100,000 people are going to be in charge or 200,000 people are going to be in charge." Like ultimately one person's in
00:56:17
Naima (Jubilee)charge. So you're saying ultimately one person's in charge. Do you But there's still checks and balances. That one person isn't a king. There still would be checks and balances with limited voting power in the There's still checks and balances with limited voting. Yeah,
00:56:28
Andrew Wilsonbut we still do not get to decide who is in our legislature. As a voting body, we do not get to decide who would vote. You would still have people from within your various communities who would be voters and they would decide who it is that
00:56:40
Andrew Wilsonwent to represent you on Capitol Hill. That sounds very expensive and very pointless if I'm being honest. How is that expensive? Okay, fine. Because you have to pay for all their houses. Then if you want to do that, there's another way you could do this, too. If you didn't want to do like the civil service
00:56:53
Andrew Wilsonway, you could do one vote per household. That would limit the that would limit the voting significantly. Hang on. and it would be not expensive at all. But there's even another way that you can do it on top of that. All
00:57:04
Andrew Wilsonrighty. Right. But let's just start with like one household voting. Same thing. Go do it. You can eliminate whatever this like perceived cost is that you have. Another thing you could do is just eliminate uh anybody being able to vote
00:57:16
Andrew Wilsonuntil they reach the same age that they could become president of the United States. Is that not 35? Mhm. So you think that everyone under 35 should lo the right to vote? Why shouldn't everyone under 35 be? the most boomer [ __ ] I've ever seen. Why shouldn't
00:57:28
Naima (Jubilee)everybody under 35 be able to be the president of the United States? Well, because they don't have the But they're still Why? Answer the question. Because they do not yet have the experience in
00:57:39
Naima (Jubilee)politics to run an entire country. Just because you can't Okay, Andrew. But just because you can't run an entire country doesn't mean that you should still not have the right to have one singular vote. It's one vote. What are you
00:57:52
Naima (Jubilee)talking about? Yes, you can't be the president, but you are still susceptible to the laws. You can have a kid at 35. You can have a house at 35. So, what does that have to do with anything? But
00:58:01
Naima (Jubilee)you can't be president below president. Yeah. Legislatively below 35 from 18 to 34. All of these people are impacted at the same level. No, they're not all
00:58:13
Andrew Wilsonimpacted at the same level. In fact, I would say can they all go to jail for committing a crime? Yes, I would say the opposite. I would say like people between the ages of 18 and like 25 are mostly living at home, right? And their parents are the ones who are mostly
00:58:25
Andrew Wilsonimpacted by legislation, not them. And their parents issue and their parents should actually probably have more say than them. Their parents actually have more autonomy than they do because they're dependent on them, right? Completely dependent upon them. It's
00:58:37
Andrew Wilsonlike if I look at the trends, it seems to me like if you eliminated from 18 to 25 or from 25 to 35, if the founders didn't think you should be president of the United States till you were 35, I don't think they wanted you to vote
00:58:50
Naima (Jubilee)either. And you know what? That's why it was never law. Voting rights are affirmed. This is some old [ __ ] That's not an argument. That's not an argument. Well, I mean, the reason why the argument is you're young. You're old. Like, you are not applicable to this
00:59:03
Andrew Wilsonlaw. What did that have to do with anything? You're trying to govern a group of people that you are not a member of. So that's the issue. So what? Everyone should be representative government. So how old do you think the average person who's in Congress is? Hell old. And they're representing all
00:59:16
Andrew Wilsonof you. What do you mean? I hate that. So you you want you think that like 19-year-olds are going to be better governing than 60 year olds? No, but I think a I don't think an 80-year-old would be a representative government. Glad Mitch McConny are dying in their