Andrew Wilson vs. Naima From Jubilee (Feminist, Leftist, Anti-Trump) | Whatever Debates #20
Date: 2025-05-20
Duration: 3h 48m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_03Naima (Jubilee)(guest)
SPEAKER_05Andrew Wilson(guest)
Key Moments
00:01:36
IntroBrian introduces debate: Andrew Wilson vs Naima (USC senior). Topic: feminism.
01:13:30
Key MomentAndrew fully articulates Force Doctrine
01:43:48
Key MomentNaima: men have no obligation to enforce women's rights. Andrew claims full Force Doctrine concession.
01:43:54
QuoteAndrew walks away to smoke — Naima thinks it's rage quit, he says it's standard break
02:19:42
Key MomentOlive jar challenge: neither can open greasy olive jar. Crew member Jake opens it.
02:34:54
Key MomentBrian fact-checks Trail of Tears: ~4-6K deaths, not millions as Naima claimed
Topics Discussed
00:10:09
Force Doctrine
Andrew's core argument: men monopolize force, women must appeal to men for rights.
00:10:10
Voting Rights/Limited Democracy
Andrew argues for limited democracy. Naima defends universal suffrage.
01:17:30
Bodily Autonomy
Whether inherent rights exist or all rights are force-enforced privileges.
02:14:00
Feminism Outcomes
Andrew: feminism caused no-fault divorce, single motherhood, declining birth rates.
02:34:00
Colonization Debate
Trail of Tears fact-checked: ~4-6K Cherokee, not millions.
03:19:00
Sex-Segregated Schools
Andrew proposes 2-hour school days. Naima calls it segregationist.
Transcript
Page 2 of 4
00:59:29
Andrew Wilsondepends. They're not governing. What do you mean? Yes, they are. Sleepy Joe. Sleepy Joe who who is in his 80s now has cancer and he's not president because he went off the deep end. I know. And Trump
00:59:41
Andrew Wilsonis in his 70s and Mitch McConnell is in his 80s. All of these people are your presidents your presidents and congressmen are running like between the late 40s to 50s to 60s. You don't really think that replacing them with
00:59:54
Andrew Wilson20-year-olds is a good idea, do you? I don't think we should replace them with 20-year-olds, but first why not? Wait, why not? Why not? Well, they'd have to be elected first now. Yeah, I know. But but even if they were don't you think that would still probably not be the
01:00:05
Naima (Jubilee)worst or the that wouldn't be a good idea if they were elected Uhhuh. through a democratic representative democracy. Don't you think they would do a worse job though than 40, 50, 60 year olds would? We don't know who it is. You can't just say universally I think a
01:00:18
Naima (Jubilee)20-year-old would be worse if they are elected democratically. Why don't you think our founders thought that 35 year old years old was the minimum? I think the founders law 35 should be the minimum because you need experience in
01:00:30
Andrew Wilsongovernment to be the head of the government. No experience in government is even required to become the president of the United States. Zero. Sure. So why this age of 35? Well, because you have to have lived in this country for long
01:00:42
Andrew Wilsonenough to understand it on a basic level. Because because they also thought you just didn't have the requisite experience probably in life to govern at all. That's fair. To govern the entire country. I would say to govern anybody.
01:00:54
Naima (Jubilee)No. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Really? I think so. I mean, why is it that they didn't let people vote? Why do you think they didn't want people to vote? I mean, dude, they were kind of [ __ ] up. I mean, do you really want to base all of
01:01:07
Andrew Wilsonyour beliefs on the founding fathers? They own slaves. Like, so, so the whole world owns slaves. Just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it's right. Yeah. We were some of the first to take people out of slavery, especially the West. Pretty sure that
01:01:19
Naima (Jubilee)was England. France did a second. The West then. That's That's the West. England. That's not America. That's the West, which is what I said. The West. The difference. You said we were the first as an American. The West is what I said. I mean, I don't think we're the
01:01:32
Andrew Wilsonsame country as England. Sure. We're like, yeah, but we're part of the West, right? Like England. We are not run by the same government as England. Fought a whole But we're part of the West. And I said the West is the ones who uh you
01:01:44
Andrew Wilsoncan't take credit for something another country did, dog. Well, first of all, many of the people who came here came here from England, right? The idea of
01:01:53
Andrew Wilsonthe repudiation of slavery came from those very same uh dogmas. So like I don't know what you're talking about. We're at 430. We're at four. Okay. Dude, you've just spent the last
01:02:04
Naima (Jubilee)hour trying to defend the belief that both that both sexes should be somehow disenfranchised from voting. This whole one per household, the one marriage system. And I think fundamentally you
01:02:15
Andrew Wilsonhave not been able to create an appeal to like closing statements here. Well, because we're supposed to be debating feminism. We never even got to it. Well, well, this would be a key a key component to this actually. But I'm actually fine with this if you want to
01:02:26
Naima (Jubilee)move it on to that. Like, but here's the thing. Never made a single argument. The argument is that people should be legislatively represented and allowed to vote in democracy. That's just an
01:02:38
Andrew Wilsonassertion, not an argument. You just that's just like I think so. The argument is if people are impacted by the laws that legislators create, then they should have a say in who those legislators are. Yeah. you whether it's a small city, but that's a performative
01:02:50
Andrew Wilsoncontradiction because you said that people who are affected by laws who a don't live here or b are younger than a certain threshold should be disenfranchised. Contradiction. It's the point of democracy. No, it's that we should be represented by a
01:03:03
Naima (Jubilee)representative government. I need to understand this logically that you're performing a contribution. Makes sense logically because it's a logical fallacy. You are arguing a logical fallacy. What's the fallacy? The fallacy is that you're trying to essentially
01:03:14
Naima (Jubilee)stop stupid people from voting by making That's not a logical fallacy. Well, you didn't let me finish the sentence. Okay. You're trying to stop stupid people from voting by making it so that less people
01:03:25
Naima (Jubilee)can vote, which is in turn taking away the power of the voter. So, what's the fallacy? Well, you're trying to empower voters by taking away voters. Yeah. How is that a logical
01:03:36
Naima (Jubilee)fallacy? You can't empower voters by taking away their power. What are what how am I trying to empower voters? What are you talking about? point is that you're trying to combat tribalism and that you want smart people's votes and
01:03:48
Naima (Jubilee)not have to do with empowering voters. I thought that's why you're against NOS's, lobbyists, bribes. You want to empower I don't know what you're talking about. So, you just don't want the I don't even know what you're talking about. What I'm
01:03:59
Andrew Wilsonsaying to you is that if you want to eliminate tribalism, you don't want to have nothing but an unlimited amount of people voting where NOS's can mark to the stupid people and bend them to their will and now have that entire bracket
01:04:12
Naima (Jubilee)for whatever it is their political agendas are. So again, why not just get rid of NOS's? Why is Oh my god, NOS's are a problem make sure less people can vote. Gee, I never thought of that. Why don't we get rid of NOS's, the people
01:04:24
Andrew Wilsonwho are utilizing tribalism so that they exist? Boy, I wish I had thought of that. You're utilizing tribalism. No, they're utilizing tribalism so they exist. Okay, but you're a political pundit. You have the power to help
01:04:36
Andrew Wilsonpeople. Uhhuh. Why not promote a stance that is actually useful to them instead of trying to take away their vote? Great. A stance that would be actually useful to them would be having their well-informed votes not nullified by
01:04:48
Andrew Wilsonnonwellinformed voters of what you believe and I believe are more than the well-informed voters. That's exactly something I can do to help everybody. But you're not helping everyone because stupid people still live here. So what?
01:05:00
Naima (Jubilee)They still have a right to exist in a society. Who's taking away their right to exist in this society? Nobody. Yes, you are. Because they if they are still
01:05:09
Naima (Jubilee)held accountable to the same laws but now have no right or vote or say in who is enacting those laws and who is representing them in government like
01:05:19
Andrew Wilson17year-olds. Final statement from children on this if you final statement is like her position is a contradiction. She says everybody should be able to
01:05:29
Andrew Wilsonvote inside of a a country where they are governed by the laws. The problem is is that then she says all sorts of people who fall into the criteria of being supported by laws shouldn't be
01:05:41
Andrew Wilsonable to vote. It's literally a performative contradiction. Then she moves to my view and agrees with my view that mostly that stupid people outnumber smart voters and and when you're talking
01:05:52
Andrew Wilsonabout uh ill or uh ill-informed voters that NOS's often take advantage of them or I mean always take advantage of them. She literally agrees with all of this but somehow still thinks it's a better
01:06:03
Andrew Wilsonidea to allow this to continue because Mafrey I don't know. She never really gave an argument for that. I don't really actually know why. My turn. Yeah, you can respond. Go ahead. I mean, I get that you don't understand why, and I get
01:06:16
Naima (Jubilee)that you don't understand my argument, and I'm I'm sorry. I hope one day you do, but what I will say is generally, yes, it's annoying that stupid people are allowed to vote, even though they sometimes make poor choices and fight
01:06:28
Naima (Jubilee)against their own self-interest. Yes, we don't like that. Yes, we don't agree. We do agree that lobbyists and NOS's have way too much power in setting precedents
01:06:38
Naima (Jubilee)for laws. Those are both things that we mutually agree upon. However, I do not think that it is fair to create a limited democracy that in turn disenfranchises voters on the basis of
01:06:50
Naima (Jubilee)being stupid. I don't think that there is any way to practically enact that. I don't understand why we would do enact it with a constitutional convention. That's how you would do it. And you
01:07:03
Naima (Jubilee)don't think that the millions of people who now have lost the right to vote would they just they'd be like, "Okay." Uh, well, they wouldn't have a choice. I mean, sure, protests, riots, there's
01:07:16
Naima (Jubilee)all sorts of ways that people have fought against a government. I mean, would you like you're basically trying to call the country's bluff on whether or not they care about having the right to vote, which I think is just stupid. I think personally, it's pointless. And I
01:07:28
Naima (Jubilee)think that the function of a democracy is to make sure that everyone who has to abide by these laws is represented in government. Is that flawed? Yes. That's not even true. Like, that's Are you going to let me Did I interrupt? Just let her finish, then we're moving. Oh, we're moving on. Okay, so finish your
01:07:41
Naima (Jubilee)thing, then we're going to move on. Okay, so anyway, back to my statement. Yes, this government is flawed. Yes, NOS's have too much power. Yes, it's annoying when stupid people do stupid things. But at the same time, the right
01:07:52
Naima (Jubilee)to vote is a human right under a representative democracy in the United States of America. To take that away from voters is not the answer to
01:08:02
Brian Atlascreating a more educated voting body. Like, just genuinely, it's just not. All right, here's what we're going to do. We have a couple chats that are going to come through. Guys, if you want to
01:08:12
Brian Atlasinteract with the the stream, the show, the debaters, $200 TTS, and also if you're enjoying the stream, kindly like the video. If you want to support Venmo Cash App, whatever pod without these
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01:08:33
Brian Atlasdiscord.gg/whatever. We have a message here from One Moment here. He paid 900. Wait, he paid $99 to send a message. Yeah, we have this one coming in from
01:08:44
Brian AtlasPeaceCraft. Oh, the audio is muted. Uh, or actually, it's not muted. I'm not sure why that's not coming through. I'll just read. I have a question for Rick
01:08:55
Brian AtlasJames. If you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning, how would you feel? Uh, I think that's for you. Yeah. How would you feel if you hadn't How would you feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning?
01:09:06
Brian AtlasI don't just how would I feel? Yeah. Hungry probably. Okay. All right. And we have a message here from Jason Cassell related to the military stuff. Thank
01:09:17
SPEAKER_04you, Jason. Jason Castle donated $200. Appreciate it. Thank you. Her boyfriend is an ASVAB waiver. You can't get someone else to take the test. You are have to be verified with ID,
01:09:29
SPEAKER_04fingerprints, birth certificate, SS, etc. Also, you take it during MEPS. Is it very good? Thank you, Jason, for that. That's how I remember it. I remember taking it during MEPS in your
01:09:41
Brian Atlassingular year in the army. How did you get off with one year? Well, people get hurt. Oh, well that sucks. That's what happens. You didn't go back. We have Red Fox here in the military 19 years and
01:09:52
Brian Atlasrun uh MEPS. All applicants take an IQ test. It is called the ASVAB and we take significant steps to catch fraud. the armed services on average. Well, I agree that there can be stupid people who are there. I'm just saying that there are
01:10:05
Andrew Wilsonstandards which are in place. That's one. And two, I remember specifically taking it when I was in MEPS. So So how hard would this IQ test be for voters on your whole life? Well, I
01:10:17
Andrew Wilsondidn't really advocate for an IQ test. It would just be I would be you would just be looking for like if somebody was going to enter into service that they had at least the IQ capacity to do it so they weren't like mentally [ __ ] Well, I mean, isn't the whole point that
01:10:29
Andrew Wilsonwe're trying to prevent stupid people from voting? That's your whole No, no. Uninformed voters from voting. Okay. So, how does community service inform a voter? Well, so again, I you keep what
01:10:42
Andrew Wilsonyou keep doing is conflating like four different things when I say there's here's all of our possible options. Yeah. Right. Um and then you're like, well, there's problems with this one. I agree. There's problems within the confines of each of these, but there's
01:10:55
Andrew Wilsonsome that you just straight up reject and give no arguments for. Like, why is it that we can't just eliminate it from 18 to 35 if you can't be president of the United States till you're 35? Seems feasible that you can't vote until
01:11:06
Andrew Wilsonyou're 35. Well, if the laws still apply to you between 18 to 35. Yeah. So, then your objection is not even to the system. Your objection is actually just still what your argument is, which is a contradiction. What's Hold on. Question.
01:11:18
Naima (Jubilee)Pause. Pause. But what's to prevent can a can a person over 35 be an uninformed voter? Yes or no? Yes. But it's going to be way less regular than people who are young. How are you proving that? Just
01:11:30
Andrew Wilsonbecause if we look at the people who turn out to vote, right, within these demographics, right, it's much less than in the older demographics. And when they're pulled, the people in older demographics know much more about the
01:11:42
Brian Atlasissues than the people in the younger demographics. Really? Yeah. I don't know. My grandma gets all her news from Facebook. We have a message here. Manny fresh question for Naima. Did I say it right? Oh my god. Naima. Okay, just question. Has she ever actually studied
01:11:54
Brian AtlasPlato's ship of state? What's an actually intellectual philosophical counterpoint against this biggest issue with socialism and communism? Also, why are you dating your oppressor? What?
01:12:05
Brian AtlasTypical. Okay, I'm feminist. Let's No response there. Okay. All right, guys. If you want to get a message in, uh, we're going to do $200 TTS. Uh, we let a couple below the threshold just come
01:12:16
Brian Atlasthrough there. Why don't we bring it back to feminism, Andrew? Force doctrine. Force. So there we go. Yeah, we're fine with that. But if you if she takes it down a rabbit hole, then we
01:12:27
Andrew Wilsonhave to go down the rabbit hole. So here's my argument. Do let's start with defining these terms. Can we do that? Sure. Yes. So I define feminism, okay, as being
01:12:39
Andrew Wilsonuh a movement towards egalitarianism or equity. Mhm. Okay. with the um stated goal of diminishing
01:12:50
Andrew Wilsonand eventually destroying patriarchal systems. Sure. That seems to be fairly historically accurate and modernly accurate. Yes.
01:13:02
Andrew WilsonMovement towards equity goal of um eliminating patriarchal systems. Yes. Okay, I'll take it. Okay. So um when I say the word going forward enforcer,
01:13:13
Andrew Wilsonwhat I mean by that word is people who utilize inside of society some form of force or uh in order to either execute
01:13:22
Andrew Wilsonlaws, right, or keep people safe in some capacity. That would be an enforcer. Okay. So my argument here is that men ultimately uh are the enforcement arm of
01:13:35
Andrew Wilsoneverybody's rights including other men's and that women always have to appeal to other men and so they can't actually get rid of the patriarchy but must instead
01:13:45
Andrew Wilsoncomply with the patriarchy. Okay, that's my argument. Sure. Do you want to repeat that for me just so I can take a little note? Yeah. that that women basically feminists always
01:13:57
Andrew Wilsonhave to appeal to the patriarchy for rights no matter what. And so feminism isn't even possible. It's not even a possibility. Okay.
01:14:05
Naima (Jubilee)Um appeal to patriarchy for rights. Okay. So can I ask Mhm. Do you believe that free will is a privilege or a right
01:14:18
Naima (Jubilee)or a privilege? Do you believe free will is a right or a privilege? Does free will just mean do whatever you want? um within the extent that you're not hurting yourself or others or becoming a danger to society. Well, then yeah, it
01:14:30
Andrew Wilsonsure sounds like you're saying it is. I'm sorry. What? Then it would be trivially true that it would have to be if you're saying that that means you can do whatever you want unless A, B, C, and
01:14:41
Naima (Jubilee)D, then it would have to be a privilege. Well, okay. So free will, as I'm defining it, is the right to do with you what you want so long as you are not infringing upon another's free will. Then it would trivially have to be a
01:14:53
Andrew Wilsonprivilege. It would have to be a privilege. Like by that logic, it would there would be no way around it. It would have to be a privilege. Why would it have to be a privilege? Well, because the second you do infringe on someone's
01:15:04
Naima (Jubilee)whatever, right? Yeah. Do you have free will? Well, yes, to an extent. Okay. So, free will with some limitations. Let's say is free will with the limitation. Then it's not free will. Well, what do you want to
01:15:17
Naima (Jubilee)call it, Andrew? I mean, I just maybe will. Okay. Do you think that human will is a right or a privilege?
01:15:28
Andrew WilsonUm, I'm not trying to figure out what you mean by this. Human will like do you think that we as a societ How about maybe I can just do it this way. I don't believe
01:15:38
Andrew Wilsonthat human beings have inherent rights. Okay, thank you. There we go. Human beings have no inherent rights.
01:15:48
Andrew WilsonMhm. Yeah. Correct. I think instead what we call rights are actually just collective intuitions which are in appeal to to force and then force
01:15:59
Naima (Jubilee)enforces them. Okay. So all law are you trying to say that basically all laws are enforced through force or just Yeah. So all all laws ultimately all laws are enforced by force. Okay. Yeah. So if you
01:16:11
Andrew Wilsonthink about this the way that I would say is like do you agree with me that rights themselves are a social construction?
01:16:22
Andrew WilsonI mean, not really. So, my right to own a gun is not a social construction. Yeah, but I'm talking about free will, not like human like what is that? I don't understand though. Like you being
01:16:34
Andrew Wilsonable to act in will. I wouldn't dispute with like you can that's what I'm saying. You can have you can take actions with your will. But when you say rights, you're saying that those are
01:16:43
Andrew Wilsonprivileges absent duties. That's a right. And then a uh a duty, right, would be essentially the opposite of what a right is, right? Yes. Okay. So
01:16:56
Andrew Wilsonthese privileges that you're talking about, I think if that's what a right is, a privilege absent a duty, then they all seem like they're privileges.
01:17:05
Naima (Jubilee)Okay. But like you don't think that I guess my issue with this argument is that it's claiming that power is based
01:17:14
Naima (Jubilee)solely on force which to me seems like it's advocating on behalf of violence. I mean in order to enforce and maintain well yeah that's that that's what force
01:17:26
Andrew Wilsonwould be. Raw force would be violence. Okay. So that's what it does. Like we we advocate that police be able to use violence in order to enforce laws. Right. But we would prefer that they avoid it, right? Yeah. But ultimately
01:17:38
Naima (Jubilee)the what what makes people comply? The threat of violence, right? But there are other ways to get people to comply now. Yeah. But what if they don't? Well, I mean, yes, but I feel like that's a bit of an extreme. Like, no,
01:17:51
Naima (Jubilee)it's not a bit of an extreme that people don't comply. But how does the president have power? He can't threaten violence against all he does. He is the commander-in-chief of the United States military. But he can't threaten and com.
01:18:03
Naima (Jubilee)So basically you believe that we function in a society solely because if we don't we will be violently hurt by the military.
01:18:14
Andrew WilsonWhat? No. I believe that what that all of your privileges that you have in society that you're calling rights only actually exist because of force. The
01:18:25
Andrew Wilsonidea of force and force doctrine and that that is basically 100% men who provide that. Okay. So you're kind of giving this like might makes right
01:18:37
Andrew Wilsonargument. Just makes not makes right. So just might is right. No, just makes not makes right. Right would be a prescriptive ought claim for morality. I'm making a descriptive claim which is
01:18:49
Andrew Wilsonthat descriptively might makes. So do you not believe that violence is immoral? Uh of course not. Depends on the circumstance. You generally just don't believe that violence is immoral. It
01:19:00
Andrew Wilsondepends on the circumstance. I mean violence in an attempt to control others and use again that depends on the circumstance. I think there's plenty of times where you and I would agree that using violence to control others is
01:19:12
Andrew Wilsontotally acceptable. I feel like violence is necessary in self-defense and the No, you don't. You think that violence is completely acceptable to control prison inmates probably to uh uh to execute certain laws and search warrants to do
01:19:24
Andrew Wilsonall sorts of things. Violence is very again those are both actions in self-defense or defense of others. How is that two inmates are fighting? When you're when you're saying you break up that fight violence to but it's violence
01:19:36
Naima (Jubilee)to control others, right? But it would be in defense of others. Yeah. But it's still to control others. It's in defense of others. What if those people like inmates don't want to be defended? So that's what we're talking about. Well, I mean, if someone is beating another
01:19:49
Andrew Wilsonperson to death, I'm sure that the person It's mutual combat. They both want to do it. The the guards then go and break it up. They're definitely using violence for control. not die but fight. Okay, but if someone is beating
01:20:00
Andrew Wilsonsomeone else to death and you are using but you see how you see how you negate the claim. So you move to the next claim. Can two people be fighting and then you use violence to break that up?
01:20:12
Naima (Jubilee)Yes. Okay, great. So then you can use violence to control people and it's perfectly acceptable. It's not acceptable though because it's it's the reason it's acceptable is because it's in defense of another person. Those people want to fight. Who are you
01:20:24
Naima (Jubilee)defending? If one of them is dying or if one of them is one of them is not dying. They just want to fight. They're not dying, but they just want to fight. Okay. Sure. So, two prison inmates. But again,
01:20:35
Andrew Wilsonyou're using these like really really really stringently specific. Yeah. Because if I if we go too broad and too general, then if we hone it down, then I can negate your stance because what you're saying doesn't actually make
01:20:48
Naima (Jubilee)logical sense. But you're honing it down to a specific example that is not representative of the entire population of the United States. I feel like we should use an example. What is representative of the entire population?
01:21:00
Andrew WilsonNot two prisoners who choose to fight to the death. I mean, that's the furthest thing. No, no, but do you when you make a claim, you make this claim, you say, Andrew, um, violence is only just or you
01:21:11
Andrew Wilsonviolence isn't justified to control groups of people. And I'm like, "Yeah, but you don't really believe that because I can give you examples of groups of people who you would want to control with violence and you think it's totally acceptable." And you're like, "Yeah, that's true." Well, those people
01:21:24
Andrew Wilsonhave lost by committing, but but hang on. You go, "Yeah, that's true." But right, I still now don't want to use that example. It's like, "That makes no sense. It it's it's a reputation to your
01:21:35
Naima (Jubilee)position. That's why I hone in on it." Okay. So people, we know this through the constitution, essentially relinquish their right to free will by threatening the free will of others. That's why prisoners are allowed to go to jail and
01:21:47
Naima (Jubilee)that is constitutionally accepted. Yes. Say that. Let me make sure I got that right. Say that again. People essentially relinquish their right to free will, the right to walk around and be free in society as a prisoner because
01:22:00
Naima (Jubilee)they have committed a crime that is a danger to themselves or others and threatens the fabric of society. So why do people go to jail? Why are crimes crimes? Why are things that are bad? People go to jail because we force them
01:22:12
Naima (Jubilee)into jail after they commit crimes, not because they're willingly going to jail for I understand that they're not willingly going to jail, but what I'm saying is the forced relinquishment of free will in this instance is morally acceptable because they have committed a
01:22:25
Naima (Jubilee)crime that threatens themselves or others. Yeah, I'm not disputing whether or not it's moral. That would make my point for me, though. So, I'm not trying to talk about those who have already had their free will relinquished on the basis that they have committed a crime
01:22:38
Naima (Jubilee)that threatens themselves or others. I'm trying to talk about people who are not criminals, who have not relinquished their free will, who are here in this country and deserve the right to choose what they do with themselves and their
01:22:50
Andrew Wilsonbodies. No. Okay. Well, I mean, you're making a lot of suppositions there that I just kind of like don't agree with. So, you don't think that people deserve the right to bodily autonomy? No. What makes
01:23:03
Andrew Wilsonsomeone deserve the right to bodily autonomy? Well, when you say bodily autonomy, would you agree then that a fetus has bodily autonomy? I'm talking right now about human beings. Well, I consider those human beings, though. I'm
01:23:16
Naima (Jubilee)talking right now about people who can talk and walk who are independent singular organisms. So, people who are in comas, they they have no rights. Dude, you keep doing comas and prisoners and fetuses. Just talk about a [ __ ]
01:23:28
Andrew Wilsonperson. What about you? That is a person. Just talk about a person who is not an exception, who is not in a medical state of physical. But what we're trying to determine right now is
01:23:40
Andrew Wilsonis the worldview. You say people deserve to have uh bodily autonomy and then you give me the criteria for bodily autonomy and then I can instantly point to an example where you agree that that's not what we're trying to do. What you're
01:23:52
Naima (Jubilee)trying to do is create a gotcha. So you don't have to answer the genuine question that I'm asking. What's the genuine question you're asking? The question is, do people, regardless of outliers, does the average person who
01:24:04
Naima (Jubilee)has not committed a crime, who is not inside of another person, who is not brain dead or in a coma, deserve bodily autonomy, depending on what you mean by
01:24:14
Naima (Jubilee)that. Bodily autonomy being defined as the ability to choose what you do with your body so long as you are not threatening other people's bodily autonomy. No. Why not? Because uh I
01:24:26
Andrew Wilsonwould say that things like laws against unaliving yourself would be completely appropriate and things like this, which would be a violation of your bodily autonomy by your criteria.
01:24:36
Andrew WilsonSo you think that because people can't unalive themselves? No, I'm saying you gave me the criteria for what bodily autonomy means, right? You asked me what an objection would be against it and I
01:24:48
Naima (Jubilee)just gave you one. Okay, so let's cut out that outlier. Do you think that people who are not inside another person, who have not committed a violent crime against themselves or others and
01:25:00
Naima (Jubilee)who have not are not currently brain dead and are conscious and capable of perceiving the world? Mhm. Do you think that those people deserve bodily autonomy? No. Based on the example I
01:25:11
Andrew Wilsonjust gave you, just because people have the capacity to unalive themselves, no one deserves bodily autonomy. By the definition that you just gave, we could not give them bodily autonomy definitionally by that definition
01:25:23
Andrew Wilsonbecause definitely by that definition. Definitionally by that definition. Yes. So I could say definitionally by some other definition, but I'm giving you the reference to your definition. We don't deserve bodily autonomy. Not by your
01:25:35
Naima (Jubilee)definition if because that would prevent us from preventing people from like doing suicide and things like this. So we don't deserve bodily autonomy because under my definition of bodily autonomy, we cannot prevent someone from killing
01:25:45
Naima (Jubilee)themselves. Correct. But that's not a violent act. Like why? Yeah, that's a real violent act. Why can't under my definition you can't prevent someone from killing themselves? Because it it it would know it would
01:25:58
Naima (Jubilee)violate your rule for what bodily autonomy is. I said so long as you are not a threat to yourself or others. So that includes you. So you would relinquish your bodily autonomy if you were a threat to yourself. Then I think that it would then just be trivially
01:26:10
Andrew Wilsontrue that you don't really mean bodily autonomy anymore. Because what you do is you say bodily autonomy with all of these exceptions where we can violate bodily autonomy. But that's like three exceptions. It's exceptions that it's not like three exceptions. It's many
01:26:23
Andrew Wilsonexceptions. What about somebody who's just like cutting themselves with a razor blade? Can we stop them? What about a person who just says that they want to cut off their right arm cuz they think it'll be fun. Can we stop them? Like there's so many examples I can give you of where we would violate people's
01:26:37
Andrew Wilsonbodily autonomy. What about a person who's having like a manic episode and doesn't want to go to the hospital? Can we violate their bodily autonomy? They're a threat to themselves or others. So again, that would fall in the What if they're not a threat? What if they're just having like a manic episode? They don't want to leave their
01:26:49
Andrew Wilsonhouse. You just perceive it that way. That happens all the time. Exactly. So you we violate that whatever you consider what you're by your definition of bodily autonomy. and you say, "Do people deserve that?" And I say, "Absolutely not by that definition
01:27:01
Andrew Wilsonbecause I can point to 300 different reasons why we would need to violate it." So, is there any definition of bodily autonomy that you think that a Not that I'm aware of. I'm not aware of a definition of bodily autonomy I would
01:27:12
Naima (Jubilee)agree to that I wouldn't think we should be able to violate. So, you don't think that people should have the ability to control themselves and their bodies under any circumstance because I didn't say under any circumstance. What's the circumstance in which people should have
01:27:25
Andrew Wilsonthe right to control their body? Yeah. So, well, for me, I would say that if it's in some type of case of will um that you could do that, but I mean
01:27:35
Andrew Wilsonultimately I think free will. Yeah. No, in case of will. So, I'm not sure that I believe in some universalized right for bodily autonomy. And you haven't really given me any definitional reason why I
01:27:48
Andrew Wilsonshould have. But I don't understand why you don't believe in bodily autonomy. Why don't My understanding of what bodily autonomy is is that you basically have the right to do whatever you want absent the infringement of somebody
01:27:59
Andrew Wilsonelse's bodily autonomy. Yes. Why don't you think people should because I think that I need to many times infringe on people's bodily autonomy for their good or societies. Why are you constantly infringing on other people's bodily autonomy? What are you up to? What do
01:28:11
Naima (Jubilee)you mean what you just said? I feel the need to Yeah. Well, I would use force doctrine for that. Meaning voting, things like that to violate a forcing.
01:28:20
Andrew WilsonWhen are you forcing when I go vote? I'm forcing my will when I go vote on other people through forced doctrine. No, you're not cuz they all have a vote. Great. Can I vote? Not according to you,
01:28:32
Andrew Wilsonbut I can I can vote and you can vote, right? Yes. Okay. You want abortions to be legal? Yes. If I vote against that, am I voting against your bodily autonomy? Yes. Thank you. Okay. Can we move on now? No, we can't move on. No.
01:28:45
Andrew WilsonNo, we can't move on. Okay. Well, Andrew, you still haven't explained why humans don't deserve bodily autonomy. Like, what are I just explained it to you. So, then who could should control people? I Well, in this case, we would
01:28:56
Andrew Wilsonuse we would use groupings of laws under from my view, it would be like Christian ethics. From your view, it would be like I don't know, shared bizarre intuitions or whatever where you think that I don't
01:29:06
Naima (Jubilee)know. I don't know where it is that what I believe. So, do you believe in God? I'm on the fence about then it's just intuition. So everything that you believe probably just intuition. So you believe Well, I mean there's also facts
01:29:18
Naima (Jubilee)and like physical evidence, but you know. Um, so you believe facts and physical evidence require an interpreter, right? Like eyes and ears. They require they would require you to interpret them. So you're saying that
01:29:31
Andrew Wilsonfacts are different for everyone regardless of how they interpret. Well, they require an interpreter and the interpreter can interpret them however they choose and then can make moral prescriptions based on those. But when we get to the moral prescriptions, facts don't change based on your but your
01:29:44
Andrew Wilsonmoral prescriptions based on the facts do. That's why they're Yeah, they require interpreters. So I'm not really willing to kind of seed the ground. But you are your own personal interpreter now. Yeah, I interpret things. Correct.
01:29:57
Andrew WilsonYeah. Yes. Okay. And so do I. That's just we all see facts and then we make judgments about those facts, right? But I have an epistemic foundation that I appeal to for foundational morals. You don't you would just that everyone
01:30:10
Naima (Jubilee)should have to subscribe to the Christian God and that is who decides who has free will. I think that Christian ethic I'm confused as to what that we're not even we weren't talking about free will. Okay. So then what we're talking about bodily autonomy now. Okay. So then based on based on your
01:30:22
Andrew Wilsondefinition of bodily autonomy the one that you gave me. We would definitely need to violate it and you even agree to that. And what just for abortion or what? No,
01:30:34
Andrew Wilsonfor the purpose of like suicide, cutting yourself with razor blades, uh all sorts of various things that you could do to yourself for self harm that we would step in and violate your bodily autonomy
01:30:43
Naima (Jubilee)over. Okay. So, outside of those specific examples in which someone is committing an act of harm, which I also remove from my definition of bodily, then I don't consider that bodily autonomy anymore by your definition.
01:30:56
Naima (Jubilee)Your definition would have to be something different. The right to go to the [ __ ] grocery store. Who has that right? Who are you saying under your standpoint of government, what is it based on your equal force objection can
01:31:08
Andrew Wilsonwomen do that they should not be allowed? So let's untangle some ideas. When you say who has a right to go to a grocery store, who has an inherent right to go to a grocery store or who has a a physical right enforced by men to go to
01:31:21
Andrew Wilsona grocery store? Which thing are you asking? What do you an inherent right or some external subjective right that is enforced? Which thing are you asking? I'm saying who has an inherent right to
01:31:33
Naima (Jubilee)move their body in Nobody. Nobody has an inherent right to do anything. Nobody. Nobody has an inherent right to do anything. So then how do we gain the physical right to go to the grocery store? Through force. Exclusively through force. Yeah. The only reason
01:31:45
Andrew Wilsonthat like so if like let's say the Taliban took over like the the grocery store area, do you have the right to go to the grocery store now? No. But that's an anarchy. Then you're agreeing with me. So then you're saying there's no inherent right. It sounds like you're
01:31:58
Naima (Jubilee)advocating for anarchy and the only way that people advocating for anarchy. The only way that people gain a right is through force. Then we'd all be fighting each other all the time to gain the right to just cooperate for the purpose
01:32:10
Naima (Jubilee)of force doctrine. We do it constantly. What do you mean? No, we don't. Cuz we don't live under a force doctrine principle. Yes, we do. Well, how would old people have the power to do anything? How would disabled people have the power and no one can defend themselves? Because they have people who
01:32:22
Naima (Jubilee)have force which enable them to do those things. That's how. So then there is power that comes not from force. If people who do not have the power to force can utilize the strength of others
01:32:34
Naima (Jubilee)on their behalf, the strength of others would be force. Okay. But how did that person at the top who doesn't have force utilize the strength of others? He's utilizing other people's force. Okay. But what is he doing to utilize their
01:32:47
Andrew Wilsonforce? Cuz he somehow has power over them. How he doesn't have well it's agreed to power. But the thing about power dynamics, which is interesting, is that if you have control over force, if that were to shift, like let's say the
01:32:58
Andrew Wilsonpresident said some [ __ ] that you really didn't like and a big ass mob showed up to take him out, right? And nobody opposed that. Who has force doctrine on their side? That's fair. So, I want to go back to this claim. You said, "Hang
01:33:10
Naima (Jubilee)on, hang on. Before we go back to my claim, Hang on, hang on, hang on force." Wait, wait, wait. And I would like to just ask Hang on. You said that's fair, though, right? You said that's fair. No, I'm You said that's fair. I'm responding
01:33:22
Naima (Jubilee)to the words you're saying. If you said agreed to power based on force. Yeah. And that those who are disabled are protected and their will is protected and those who are elderly are protected and their will is to protect if there's
01:33:34
Andrew Wilsonforce. Yeah. Then why can't you do the same thing with women? Why do women now usurp their right to protection and bodily autonomy under there's not rights. These aren't rights. It's just force. Can like can women like
01:33:46
Naima (Jubilee)manipulate men to use force on their behalf? Sure. that's happened before. Great. But they're always going to have to appeal to men's strength for force no matter what. But I don't think society is intrinsically and implicitly governed
01:33:57
Naima (Jubilee)by force. And I think advocating for that, which part of society violence, which part of society is not governed by force? Which part? Um I mean, schools aren't governed by force. Yes, they're governed by force for sure. Really? So
01:34:10
Andrew Wilsonkids go to school because they're afraid they're going to get No, they're not going to school because they're afraid they're going to get hurt, but there's security guards who are around. There's police officers are around. There's people who enable that nothing bad's going to happen to those kids. There's teachers who are there much stronger
01:34:23
Naima (Jubilee)than the students to keep potential threats away from the students. All of it's governed by force. Okay. But you're talking about force for protection versus force for the utilization and monopoly of power. It's all the same thing. It's not the same thing. If
01:34:35
Naima (Jubilee)you're protecting people's right to be somewhere, then that is a different use of force than But they're both force. Sure. Okay. Great. Then they're the same thing. Force. Sure. But why are you just
01:34:47
Andrew Wilsonbecause you have a monopoly on force? What gives you the will to usurp someone's right to very basic bodily? They don't have rights. Rights are not
01:34:58
Naima (Jubilee)by your agreement inherent. So then what's to stop a bigger, stronger man from just beating the [ __ ] out of you? And now you don't have right. Nothing except force doctrine. That's the whole point. Then why would you want to live in a society in which everyone is like I
01:35:11
Andrew Wilsondidn't say you have to live in a society in which individuals can get beaten up by somebody who's next to them. That's what force doctrine is. No. Force doctrine would be like the cops would show up and beat that guy down with ba
01:35:23
Andrew Wilsonbilly clubs, drag his ass to prison, then he would get thrown into a prison where guards would make sure he stayed there. Okay. So force is appropriate through force doctrine. Well, I don't
01:35:33
Naima (Jubilee)even know what that means. What are you asking? So the force and the power to I mean you're basically saying that women do not have the right to I don't know
01:35:44
Naima (Jubilee)because you won't define what rights are to do really anything. Okay. I'll tell you again. What did I say? A right is a duty. I'm sorry. A privilege absent a duty. And you agreed to it four times. Some women have no privilege of a duty.
01:35:58
Andrew WilsonStop. Stop. I just want to point out your lie. You said I so frustrated. You said I keep lying or you keep lying. So when did I lie, Bookie? You just said I never defined privilege. No, I didn't.
01:36:10
Naima (Jubilee)Yes, you literally just said that and I defined it four times. You didn't say you didn't define privilege. You didn't define privilege. You defined it right.
01:36:18
Andrew WilsonOh my god. A privilege absent duty is what? A privilege absent of a duty. I'd say like free will. A right. It's a right. I defined it multiple times. So
01:36:31
Naima (Jubilee)what are you trying to say? That because women cannot defend physically their right to do things that they do not deserve rights. Is that the point? They can't enforce their own rights. So
01:36:42
Andrew Wilsonthat's okay. So because someone cannot enforce their own rights, they don't deserve rights. Well, they don't have them. But do they deserve them? Well, you're at again moving into a different claim.
01:36:55
Andrew WilsonSo, if you want to get into like what people deserve or don't deserve, right? Uh, we can get into that, but can we at least agree on the descriptor of how it works first?
01:37:06
Andrew WilsonNo. Okay. Because women I'm trying to understand why women don't deserve rights because they cannot fight. That's a different claim. I just asked you if we could agree to the descriptor before we moved to that claim and you said no
01:37:18
Naima (Jubilee)and then brought that claim up again because the claim doesn't make sense. I don't understand your claim. make the claim. I'm literally answering all of your questions for this claim. Not well though. Like what are you saying? Which question? Which thing am I not
01:37:30
Naima (Jubilee)answering? If women do not have a monopoly on force, cannot control their own bodies, why don't they deserve basic human rights, basic equal rights. Okay, let's
01:37:41
SPEAKER_02try this again. It's like talking to a [ __ ] child. Okay. Do you have Do you agree with me? No. Okay. Do you agree with me? I've never seen you this pissed off. This is [ __ ] hilarious. Oh my god. I'm not pissed
01:37:54
Andrew Wilsonoff. I'm just Yes, you are. And they say women are emotional. Look at him. You're the one freaking out, not me. I'm not freaking out. I think this is hilarious. For me, it's extremely frustrating talking to someone doesn't actually understand the words that are coming out of my mouth. He's sounding very
01:38:08
Andrew Wilsonemotional right now. Andrew, can we go back? Would you like to get some water? Yeah. Can we go back and go through all If you need to cry, that's okay. Can we go back? I'm here for you, my friend. Can we go back through these descriptors now? Sure. Okay. All righty. You guys
01:38:20
Naima (Jubilee)want to keep defining words? What is Marian Webster over here? What is right from your perspective? Okay. I mean, I'm fine with your definition on those descriptors. No, but I want your definition. I'm fine with your definition of that. Then why do you keep contradicting yourself if you're fine
01:38:33
Naima (Jubilee)with my definition? I'm not contradicting myself. Your claim just doesn't make sense that humans do not deserve rights specifically because they cannot physically. When did I say they didn't deserve them? You just did. Like I said they don't exist inherently.
01:38:44
Naima (Jubilee)Right. Okay. So whether or not it doesn't exist inherently, does someone still deserve that right? just because they cannot physically defend themselves. How do you deserve something
01:38:54
Naima (Jubilee)that doesn't exist? But it does exist. Okay, so now it exists. Does it exist or not exist? I mean, do I have bodily autonomy currently? Yes. Can I go walk around my house and do what I want? Yes.
01:39:06
Naima (Jubilee)So, on a certain level, it does exist. Where? I mean, right here, right now. I'm here on my own free will. So, because you can do this, pissing you the [ __ ] off. So, because you can do this, you have the right to do this. I'm trying to see what extent you think
01:39:18
Naima (Jubilee)women should not be allowed to do things because they cannot monopolize and control others based on Do you understand that like I just don't understand practically what you want out of this. So women can't force it's hard
01:39:31
Andrew Wilsonto it's hard to argue with you because you don't have any understanding of philosophy at all. So when I bring these things up that's not the issue. The issue is that your philosophy is flawed. It's on it morally doesn't make sense.
01:39:41
Naima (Jubilee)Okay. I'll tell you what. Negate it. negate the proposition. Okay, sure. Um, with what I said before, so you're basically saying that people who utilize
01:39:52
Naima (Jubilee)force to execute laws are those who have the ability to control those laws. My issue is that and in terms of a movement towards equity or a goal of eliminating and in terms of feminism, you're saying
01:40:03
Naima (Jubilee)it's a movement towards equity with the goal of eliminating patriarchal systems. My issue is that I fundamentally do not believe that laws should be
01:40:14
Naima (Jubilee)exclusively enforced to the benefit of those who have physical power. Okay, that's not a negation of force doctrine. So like I don't know what to you're
01:40:27
Andrew Wilsonyou're so philosophically illiterate that you actually don't even understand what I'm saying to you and you're just regularly illiterate. I mean dude, like then just argue the claim. I did argue the claim, but it doesn't make sense. Then falsify it. Okay. Just because
01:40:38
Naima (Jubilee)someone can do something does not mean that they ought to do it. Just because men can force women to do what they want doesn't mean that they ought to. So then descriptively do you agree with force
01:40:50
Naima (Jubilee)doctrine? I mean I believe on a like blanket I believe on like a smaller level. I think that interpersonally someone can um use force if they have more force
01:41:03
Naima (Jubilee)over something. Okay, let's try this. What is force doctrine? Force doctrine is your whole thing that men have a monopoly on force and human beings have no inherent rights. All laws are
01:41:13
Andrew Wilsonenforced by force and violence is used to maintain um societal regularity on a certain level and that women have to appeal to
01:41:23
Andrew Wilsonmen for the their monopoly on force in order to secure their whatever needs or rights or whatever it is they want. Right. That's part of force doctrine.
01:41:33
Naima (Jubilee)Sure. Okay. Do you then do you agree with the description? Do you agree the description is true? You said I agreed with the description. That's I asked you four times if you agreed with the description. I agreed
01:41:46
Andrew Wilsonwith it four times. Well, one time I said no to piss you off, but then the other times I said yes. So, you agreed with me that when it comes to force doctrine, you agree to the descriptor being true. Sure. Okay. Now, we can get
01:41:58
Andrew Wilsonsomewhere. Maybe that's what I said. Oh my god. I mean, you never did, but okay. I did, Andrew. So, now that we can get uh past that, now that you've agreed to force doctrine, can you tell me why men
01:42:10
Naima (Jubilee)should enforce women's rights? Why men should enforce women's rights? I don't necessarily think that I Well, I think that free will is honestly a privilege. I mean, not a privilege. I
01:42:21
Naima (Jubilee)think that free will is a right. I think that everyone has the right to bottle then. You don't agree to force doctrine. Why'd you lie to me? Why did you lie to me? You asked me if I agreed with your definition. I agree with your definition of it. I don't morally agree with it.
01:42:35
Andrew WilsonThat's Well, if we don't agree with the descriptor, then we again we have to argue the descriptor until you either falsify the descriptor or or agree with the descriptor. It can't be either or. It has to be either or. It can't be
01:42:47
Naima (Jubilee)can't be anything else. It's either true or it's false. I just want to understand your moral justification for controlling someone else's body. I'm talking on a moral basis, not that you can't physically. I understand that you can
01:42:57
Andrew Wilsonphysically. I agree with the premise. That's nice. But I should ask why. But I asked you a question and he didn't answer it. Why should
01:43:08
Andrew Wilsonmen enforce women's rights? Why should they? Because it is morally inaccible to control others. It is morally impermissible. That's the opposite. You're not controlling. If you're
01:43:19
Andrew Wilsonenforcing their rights, it sounds like they're controlling you, right? Like how are you controlling them by enforcing their rights? But right is simply as we've defined it a privilege without a
01:43:32
Andrew Wilsondiction. So why should men enforce women's privileges? But they don't have to. So what are you defining? Answer my question. Why should men enforce women's privileges? They don't have to enforce women's privileges. Great. I think I
01:43:43
Andrew Wilsonthink I Great. I believe the exact same thing. Perfect. I'm going to go. They don't have to enforce Oh my goodness. He's a He's coming back. He's just going to do a little smoke. He's quit. Are you
01:43:54
Andrew Wilsonkidding? You just agreed with my entire position. Oh [ __ ] The misogynist quit. Agree with you that men should not enforce women. Well, you didn't let me finish the sentence. Well, I don't really need to. You conceded the debate.
01:44:06
Brian AtlasNo, I did not concede the debate. Andrew, you're just walking away cuz you're mad. Well, I'm going to go have smoke like I do every time I do a debate. I'm He's just taking a brief brief break. Oh, stay. Can you We'll
01:44:19
Brian Atlashave you stay at the table. Oh, I want to smoke though. That's not fair. Why does he get to smoke? You want to smoke with Oh, no. Oh, is he going to come back? Yeah. Yeah. So, usually we'll just have one person take a break at a time. Yeah, sure. While we do that, I'll allow
01:44:32
Brian Atlasa couple chats to come through. Give me just a moment. I don't want to talk to the chat. [ __ ] those guys. Give me one moment here. All right. So, guys, if you're enjoying the stream, $200 TTS, if
01:44:43
Brian Atlasyou want to get a message in a question or something for Can I just finish the basic point that I was going to make now that he's not here to answer? You you may want I'm totally fine having you finish the point, but I think we should wait until Andrew's back so he can hear
01:44:56
Brian Atlasit and respond to it. Well, I'm going to go smoke after he comes back. So, then do it once you're both back at the table. So, just hang tight. He's going to do a quick smoke, then you can take a brief break. I've never seen you smoke.
01:45:09
Brian AtlasYou smoke cigarettes or you you vape? No, cigarettes. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Okay. Uh I've never seen him so upset. This is hilarious. I thought women were supposed to be more emotional. Well, I'll let him respond to that when he's back at the table. Guys, if you
01:45:21
Brian Atlaswant to get a message in, streamlabs.com, whatever $200 TTS, we have 18,000 people, 18,000 concurrent viewers at the moment. That's just on
01:45:32
Brian AtlasYouTube and I think we have over a thousand over there on Twitch. Speaking of Twitch, go to twitch.tv/w whatever. Drop us a follow and a Prime sub if you have one. If you have Amazon Prime, you can link it to your Twitch. It's a
01:45:45
Brian Atlasquick, free, easy way to support the show every single month. Also, guys, if you're enjoying the stream and you want to see more debates, like the video. Also, I just figured I'd do this announcement now. If there's anybody
01:45:57
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01:46:06
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Brian Atlaswhatever, they take 30% too. So, if you were to send in a $200 super chat, they take half of that. Apple and
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Brian AtlasYouTube collectively take over half of a $200 soup chat. So, be sure to do it through either Streamlabs or Venmo Cash app. Also, we have a Discord, discord.gg
01:46:54
Brian Atlaswhatever. We post behind the scenes our stream schedule on there. And also shop.whatever.com if you'd like to get some merchandise. Some people were reporting that there were apparently maybe they're just trolling some video
01:47:06
Brian Atlasand audio issues. All you have to do if that occurs just refresh, reload the stream and we'll get right back uh to it. So Andrew's rejoining here. Did you want to take a little quick smoke? I
01:47:19
Brian Atlasshould have actually just had you guys do it at the same time. That's what I said. Brian, I Yeah, you know, that's my bad. That's my bad. Uh, so we will continue the uh we'll continue the show.
01:47:32
Brian AtlasWhere do I go this way? Uh, just write out there. Yeah. Uh, we will continue the stream in just a moment as soon as she returns. Reminder guys, $200 TTS. That's
01:47:43
Brian Atlasstreamlabs.com whatever. Uh, a Oh, we have a couple chats coming through. I'll get to those as soon as she is back. Andrew, tell the audience to uh like the
01:47:54
Andrew Wilsonvideo. Like the video. That's it. It's like talking to a It's like It's like talking to a toddler. That's it. Uh, do you have a light that she could
01:48:04
Brian Atlasuse? What? Oh, [ __ ] Sorry. Light. Do we have a light for her? Uh, yeah. You can use my lighter. Wait, I
01:48:15
Naima (Jubilee)found one. Okay. Oh, no. I don't. Oh, no. I don't. Can I have Andrew, you're light. Oh, you need my light.
01:48:27
Andrew WilsonPlease would be nice. Please. No. Really? Really? No. You got All right. I'll be back. Go across the street. Uh, all right. Fine.
01:48:38
Andrew WilsonI'll give you the damn lighter. I'm joking with you. Calm down. Here.
01:48:48
Brian AtlasAll right, guys. Uh, give us just a moment while uh, Revenge is mine, so sayeth the Lord. Uh give us a moment here while we're
01:48:57
Brian Atlasjust uh taking a brief intermission to uh allow our debaters to take smoke breaks. You guys should quit. You know,
01:49:06
Brian Atlasyou ever We should just let us smoke in the studio, bro. Get a studio. I will get evicted. Get us get a studio where we can smoke. It's not a bad idea, though. I mean, I would have no problem
01:49:18
Brian Atlaswith it, but Okay. I must abide by the landlord's rules. Okay. So guys, if you're enjoying the stream, just uh hang tight, stay tuned. She's going to take a quick smoke break and we will be right
01:49:30
Brian Atlasback. And let me see if there's anything uh we can get pulled up or any announcements. Speaking of which, guys, if you're enjoying the stream, we are planning to do uh Andrew's final show
01:49:41
Andrew Wilsontomorrow. I'm not going to be there for that. No, no, I got to go back up one day early. I didn't get a chance to talk to you when I got here. Okay. Yep. All right. So, the DGEN panel, I think. Yeah, we'll have to talk about later.
01:49:53
Brian AtlasOkay, we'll talk about it after the show. Uh, let's see here. We have Tinkerton. Thank you for the gifted five subs. Really appreciate it. Uh, I'm going to read this one from ET. Whenever Andrew gets her on a point, she
01:50:04
Brian Atlasimmediately tries to say he's mad because she's not smart enough to understand or she makes up something he never said. You and your ASVAB waiver boyfriend deserve each other. Uh, thank
01:50:15
Brian Atlasyou for that message, guys. if you our read threshold is uh a bit higher, but I'm just going to read a few if we have time. Once we got to the concession though that men shouldn't enforce
01:50:25
Brian Atlaswomen's privilege, there we go. We got our a claim. That was it. Done. So great, she agrees with me. That's the end of that. Done.
01:50:36
Brian AtlasAnd thank Laura for the $5 on Cash App. Rachel, thank for the 20 on Venmo. Brian, thank for the 50 on uh Venmo. and Justin, thank for the 10 on Cash App.
01:50:47
Brian AtlasThank you guys. Uh, Venmo, Cash App, whatever pod. If you want 100% of your contribution to go towards the show, uh, since we have some high viewership, I'd like to remind you guys our stream
01:50:59
Brian Atlasschedule. We do our dating talk episodes, Sundays, 5:00 p.m. Pacific. And in addition to that, um, also subscribe to The Crucible. Do it
01:51:09
Andrew Wilsonimmediately. Hurry up, faster. Hurry up. you're not over there subscribing quick enough or sending in the super chats. We need all the super Where's all the super chats? I was told there's like 18,000
01:51:22
Brian Atlaslive watching. Yeah, there's uh you know, the viewership's uh declining here just cuz we're taking a brief intermission, but there's currently Yeah, there's just under 18,000 concurrent viewers. You know what? While
01:51:33
Brian AtlasI need to make an appeal to the viewers and audience here really quick, I've been having a lot of issues with my ex account lately. If anybody has a connection uh over there at Twitter at X, I've been trying to get it fixed.
01:51:44
Brian AtlasIt's been going on like seven weeks now. Uh an issue with my ex account. Uh I've tried to reach out to support. No responses. So um if somebody has you're going to in order for this to be fixed,
01:51:56
Brian AtlasI'm going to need to get in touch with somebody who has an connection or even works there at X at Twitter who can uh help me out. So you can DM me at whatever on Instagram. You can email me
01:52:07
Brian Atlasbrian whatever.com. B R I an whatever.com if you're able to assist. We got some super chats here that we'll read. Uh she had to appeal to Andrew's
01:52:16
Brian Atlasforce possession just to light her sig. There it is. Uh cool. Thank you, Brian S. Patriarchy's hoarding all the resources. Thank you guys. Guys, if
01:52:26
Brian Atlasyou're enjoying the stream, like the video. There's uh 17,000 people watching. Guys, just hit the like video really quick if you want to see more debates. Uh, we're trying to do more of
01:52:37
Brian Atlasthese. So, if you like this, you want to see more of them, hit the like video or hit the like button, excuse me. And, uh, like I said, if anybody's watching and you'd like to do a debate, hopefully,
01:52:49
Brian Atlasyou know, we we're going to want to select from people who've done at least some debates or do content creation so we can uh, vet you a little bit, but we are looking to host more debates. So, if you're interested in that, sure, she doesn't steal your lighter. And
01:53:02
Brian Atlasspecifically, we're looking for debate opponents for Andrew Wilson here. If you're uh if you're a feminist, if you're liberal, if you're a Democrat, uh if you if you disagree with Andrew Wilson here on something, we'd love to
01:53:14
Brian Atlasschedule more. If you're interested in debating Andrew, feel free to uh and you're and you, you know, you disagree with him, you're a feminist, liberal, or whatever, send me a DM on Instagram,
01:53:26
Andrew Wilsonwhatever, and we can try to arrange for that. Especially feminists like some of their actual champions because they have way better champions than this. Can you
01:53:34
Brian Atlascheck on her, please? Um, we have Chef I have a connection at X. Just kidding, man. Sorry. Lol. Andrew, make sure she doesn't steal your lighter.
01:53:45
Brian AtlasI'll get the lighter back. Thank you. Thank you for that. I do appreciate it. Here, Mary, pull up Oh, wait. We can't do the We can't pull up Discord. Never mind. Um, one of our monitors bugged out right before the show. Of course, guys,
01:53:58
Brian Atlasif you're like, if you're enjoying the stream, twitch.tv/w whatever, drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one. It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show. Uh, and also, I think it's been a couple minutes since we last got
01:54:10
Brian Atlasa Prime sub. So, check if you have a Prime sub available. If you have Amazon Prime, you just link it up. Super quick and easy way to support the show. Uh, all
01:54:23
Brian Atlasright. Let me see here. Uh, Andrew, are there any uh I think we should try to get back to uh kind of the main topic. Well, we've been discussing it, but are there any other topics you'd
01:54:36
Andrew Wilsonlike to hit on? Yeah, I'd like to move into feminism now. I stood up to her internal critique, and now it's time for her to stand up to mine. Okay, got it. So, we'll do uh feminism. So, force
01:54:48
Naima (Jubilee)doctrine. She did an internal critique. She agreed with forced doctrine ultimately. So, now I'd like Here we go. All right. Thank you for the light. That was a little That was a little very harsh. I did not mean The table is very
01:54:59
Naima (Jubilee)slick. Um Oh, wait. I'm going to refill my water. Mary, can you do it for her? Oh, actually, no. No, no, no. She has one there. Never mind. Oh, wait. I can't. I'll do it. I'll do it.
01:55:11
Brian AtlasForce doctrine. There it is. See right there. Mhm. There you go. Thank you, sir. Force doctrine applies to pickle jars as well. My cat's name is P. We'll do a a pickle
01:55:23
Naima (Jubilee)jar pop if somebody sends in. Are we opening pickle jar? Although I am as I am an exceptionally physically weak woman. I don't know. You You look
01:55:33
Brian Atlaspretty. Do you lift or You're funny. All of 98 pounds. Um we'll do a pickle jar challenge. Uh if somebody sends in a $1,000 TTS, we'll we'll order a pickle
01:55:45
Brian Atlasjar to the studio and we'll Okay. We'll we'll see. I got to get a pump going though. Uh, I'm going to let a couple messages come through here really quick. Okay, we have uh say
01:55:56
Brian Atlaswizard. He says, "What can women joking?" Oh, no. Okay. Women do without men enforcing their rights. If men collectively remove any right from women, who can put them back? Remember,
01:56:08
Brian Atlasno men on your side. PS. Force doctrine is a man and men. Mhm. Okay. Okay. Uh, couple more chats here really quick, then we'll get right back to it. Uh, someone looks like they bought a hoodie
01:56:21
SPEAKER_04and a t-shirt on their merch shop, shopwever.com. If you want to get yourself some merchandise, we have Pasty George here. Oh, Jesus. Pasty George donated to roast a little bit. Just warning. Yeah, this
01:56:33
SPEAKER_04female with locks on her head is a troll and argues in bad faith. I understand Andrew's frustration because he is debating with a mentally handicapped person. I actually would love to respond
01:56:44
Naima (Jubilee)to that. Um, so if I'm being completely honest with you, Andrew, I've been watching a few of your debates and I've noticed that you like to troll women specifically, there was a video in which
01:56:56
Naima (Jubilee)you made fun of disabled p person. You made fun of their deaf accent. Um, you do that consistently. You've called women [ __ ] You've called I don't I literally just watched a video. You
01:57:08
Naima (Jubilee)didn't watch a video of me. You called her a satanic prostitute [ __ ] You like If she was a prostitute and a Satanist. Yes. Well, she wasn't a Satanist. She was a sex worker. But no, she was she was a Satanist. Am I answering the question or are you answering the question? Yeah, but yeah, I'm not going
01:57:21
Andrew Wilsonto let you direct. I'm not going to let you lie. She was a question. If a person is a Satanist and a prostitute, are they a satanic [ __ ] But she didn't call herself. Can you answer my question? She didn't. She didn't