1v1 DEBATE: Jimbob vs. NotSoErudite -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #16
Date: 2025-05-11
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Kyla (NotSoErudite)(guest)
SPEAKER_04Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:18
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Kyla (NotSoErudite) on feminism
00:02:00
Key MomentJim Bob opens: feminism is self-contradictory, depends on patriarchal power it opposes
01:40:03
Key MomentKyla concedes she defers to husband Nick on final decisions, honoring Christian headship
02:13:45
QuoteKyla: having children is 'amoral'/neutral — prompts Jim Bob to challenge her Christian credentials
03:02:18
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism has no standard and no obligations
03:06:05
Key MomentKyla closing: Jim Bob doesn't know three branches of government or understand GDP
Topics Discussed
00:02:00
Definition of Feminism
Jim Bob: self-contradictory (depends on patriarchal structures it opposes). Kyla: empowerment of women and promotion of femininity.
00:29:00
Force Doctrine and Patriarchy
Whether society is underpinned by male force. Jim Bob: women's rights are allowances granted by men. Kyla rejects 'stolen valor' framing.
01:36:00
Feminism's Lack of Duties
Jim Bob: feminism has no built-in duties/obligations unlike Christianity. Kyla: has values/oughts even without formal obligations.
02:00:00
Christian Marriage and Submission
Kyla's Radical Orthodoxy view. She defers to husband Nick on final decisions. Discussion of Christian headship.
03:02:18
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism has no standard, no obligations. Kyla: Jim Bob equivocates on obligations vs values.
Transcript
Page 3 of 4
01:56:55
Jim Bobduty, a moral good into my religion then when we're talking about broad feminist because feminism like if once you get into ethics and morals, you're actually going to have to pull in a theological
01:57:06
Kyla (NotSoErudite)view. There's no avoiding it. Sure. But like my main theological view is that like we should try to do well by others and treat them well and allow them as much as possible free choice. And I think feminism is one of the means by which you offer women free choice,
01:57:19
Jim Bobright? Which I think is really free choice to act against theirelves. Yeah. Unfortunately, God allows us to sin, right? Okay. But calling it sin, you could make sin illegal, right? God does
01:57:29
Jim BobHold on. Does God allow us to make laws? Yep. But he is it sinful to murder? Yep. So why do we put Unless it's self-defense? Why do we put No, that's killing. That's not murder. Um, so if
01:57:41
Jim Bobit's totally consistent under your worldview to make something that's sinful illegal, why do you advocate That's not what I said. Is it okay under your worldview to make something that's sinful illegal? Uh by and large I think
01:57:54
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that like like what you should determine as a nation of what's legal and illegal should like at the most broadband work to capture multiple like uh ethical systems that people are bringing in because especially in America you've got
01:58:06
Kyla (NotSoErudite)this amalgamation of Protestants and Catholics and Eastern Orthodox uh and atheists and so I don't think like the government should bring a branch of like God. Do you think that something that's
01:58:17
Jim Boba sin can be made illegal? Can be. Yeah. under your view, is it okay under your feminist view right now that you're defending, which is advocating for liberation, the ability to choose and do
01:58:30
Jim Bobthings do as thou wilt? Essentially, I don't think all sin should be illegal. Like, for example, cheating is a sin, but I don't think it should be illegal. I don't think you should be put in jail for cheating. Oh, interesting. Okay. So, how do you determine which sins or
01:58:41
Jim Bobtransgressions from your uh ambiguous Christian Orthodox Protestant view? Um, by the way, is your Christian view informing your view of your feminism or
01:58:52
Jim Bobis it uh probably, yeah, that's probably why, for example. Okay. So, why is it that you would put uh someone in jail for one thing that's uh misaligned with your moral code or from you're deriving
01:59:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)from your Christian? I'm not using my moral code to determine like what's legal or illegal. What I'm doing is like looking at the dialogue of society to determine like which policies make for the best type of society. So for
01:59:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)example, murdering being allowed is really bad for society because then you're not guaranteeing your citizens uh like individual safety, which means that no citizen is ever going to buy into the government if the government can't
01:59:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)guarantee their safety. So murder is bad obviously, but I don't think what's legal like legal or illegal should be our measures for what's morally good or morally. The reason, okay, the reason I asked because if you agree that murder
01:59:39
Jim Bobis bad and you you would actually make it illegal and there's a penalty. Um, one of the elements is that it's not good for society. It removes people from society and society is composed of
01:59:51
Jim Bobpeople and you need people, right, for society. That's not why I think murder is bad in But but you need people for society. Sure. So having people for society is a good, right? Sure. I just
02:00:01
Jim BobOkay. So if having good if having uh people for society is good under your view, how is it that having a child is amoral? Uh because again I think anyone can spread their legs and have come dumped into them. I don't think that
02:00:14
Jim Bobit's meaningful to dump [ __ ] into a woman or to like and create a leg. Is it moral to feed your child uh to like a good parent? Yeah. Okay. So this So I don't understand. You're reducing the act of
02:00:26
Jim Bobsex to be something mechanical. And because it's mechanical and anyone can do it, it's not moral. But what's just as mechanical literally is feeding your kid food, but that's moral. What's the what's the symmetry breaker there? Uh the symmetry breaker is that typically
02:00:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)when people have sex, there's a lot of like self- serving hydonic like elements to it. I don't think that like most sex that results in children, I don't think is oriented towards having children. I think it's having sex, so it feels good. Whereas when you're caretaking your child, you're like doing something by
02:00:52
Jim Bobtaking care of another person, which is a good thing to do. Okay. So, you agree then even from your view, which is antithetical to most feminist view, that uh promiscuous sex is probably not a great idea. No, I think it's u pretty
02:01:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)much bad for everyone. Okay. But but you should be allowed to do it. Okay. You should be allowed to do it. But would you argue against it? Like uh saying don't do promiscuity. Yeah. By Would you shame women? Uh shame women would not be
02:01:17
Jim Bobwhat I would do. It's just super ineffective. Shame's ineffective. Did you live through the karuna thing? I don't know what that is. Uh I can't
02:01:27
Jim Bobsay it on the the co the cough cough the Oh, the kof. Oh. Oh, vid. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I got you. Uh did I live through it? Yes, I did. Would you say during that time you you would argue that shame
02:01:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)was ineffective? Uh yeah. Really? I think force was more effective, right? People were getting No, actually no. Force people were getting fined. people were getting fired from their jobs, right? There was like
02:01:50
Kyla (NotSoErudite)more coercive pressure applied to people to comply. There was that rather than shame. I don't think most people like put on a mask because they felt shamed. They put on a mask because they knew they couldn't go into their workplace or travel. From the person who's arguing
02:02:03
Jim Bobthere's a complexity and everything can't be reduced to force appeals to force here, but doesn't appeal to the complexity of social shame and and the ability to structure society from actual pure shame. So, yeah, because I think
02:02:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like when it comes to promiscuity, for example, right, I don't want people to not be promiscuous because they're worried that like some that the like the unironic Iranian uh uh morality police are going to come into their home and beat them to death. I think that that's
02:02:29
Kyla (NotSoErudite)a really bad strategy. I also think it's a really bad strategy to be like, we'll just [ __ ] hate you and no one will be your friend if you have promiscuous sex. I also think that that doesn't work because they'll have sex, they'll just be they'll just do it in secret. What's more effective than shame is when people
02:02:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)come to embody the values themselves, right? So if promiscuity is bad for women, I want to advocate for that from a lens of like it is good for you to not be promiscuous, not you're a bad dirty [ __ ] if you're promiscuous because I
02:02:54
Jim Bobthink it leads to a heart change and I think the heart change is fundamentally better for society. I will grant that that's also uh might be effective. Um but to say that shame's not effective, I wouldn't
02:03:07
Kyla (NotSoErudite)say that's either or. I think there's a I should have specified shame is not effective at changing hearts. And I think changing hearts is what matters because when it comes to promiscuity, the reality is that it would work a little bit. People would have less sex overall. But you know what's been way more effective than like the Christian
02:03:20
Kyla (NotSoErudite)shaming for not having sex? Giving people phones and social anxiety. Gen Zed is having way less sex than ever before because they won't talk to each other, right? That's been way more effective than shaming people. Because if you look at Texas, which was a state
02:03:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that was very religious, very shamed, didn't give a lot of sex education. They're like the number one state for teen pregnancy. So this idea that shame was effective at making all these teens not have sex, not really. They just do
02:03:42
Jim Bobit in secret. I want to go back to this one question is if a bunch of Christian women come forward and they hijack the term feminism and
02:03:54
Jim Bobthey redefine it to be fully submissive to a patriarchal system that's a Christian ethics system and fully backing it and defining feminism as the
02:04:04
Jim Bobultimate femininity is motherhood and uh being in the home. From your view, is there any standard you could argue that that's not feminism? That's not my feminism. That's not the feminism I'd be
02:04:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)fighting for. No. So, there's no true feminism. I No. Like, in the same way like there isn't any true like what's another uh uh uh anti-racism. There isn't like a true anti-racism. It's
02:04:30
Jim Bobalways like morphing and shifting in a dialogue over time. It's not operationally defined because it's not a scientific context. Okay. that's the case. Could there be a type could there be a form of feminism that you couldn't possibly say isn't feminism that it was
02:04:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)actually fully restrictive of women's liberties? Uh yeah. I think for example, if like people like this is feminism, but all it is is like basically putting women in hijabs, cutting off their clits, and not allowing them to walk
02:04:53
Jim Bobaround outside, I think everyone would agree that's nothing to do with feminism. Wait, wait, wait. We're not talking about what people agree cuz uh throughout time people have agreed on some wacky [ __ ] The question is from
02:05:04
Jim Bobyour view as a feminist, if you argue that there's no correct feminism, there's just your feminism and I posit a counterfeminism that's inconsistent with your feminism. What's the ultimate
02:05:16
Jim Bobstandard? It's not whether people have a general intuition or they agree with it. The question is, do you have an absolute standard that's unchanging to say no that's not feminism? I think as long as like the goal fundamentally is that we're like trying to lead to the
02:05:29
Jim Bobbetterment for women. I think that seems decently foundational for to feminism is that's why that's what my definition is the betterment of women. What if that form of feminism argued that from their model, from their ethical system, from their metrics that was the better that
02:05:42
Jim Bobwas better for women? They can there's like an entire like tradife movement that's like very uh fe it's a feminist fourthwave wife movement. So you're agreeing that from your own system which is completely subjective to your own
02:05:54
Jim Bobopinion, you have your own feminism, right? It's like a it's like a it's like your own innovation. If if that's the case, my own innovation. Yeah, but there's no there's no standard. Do you know what like a social dialogue is?
02:06:05
Jim BobLike how zeitgeist emerge? I'm saying there's no standard by which you can determine that something. I understand. But do you agree there is no standard for determining what feminism is? In the
02:06:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)same way that there's no standard by which you determine humanitarianism other than essentially there seems to be some precept which is that it should be for the betterment of women. That's the standard, right? But no, that's just pushes the standard of what's better. No, but the orientation of the people
02:06:30
Jim Bobadvocating as a feminist should ideally be advocating for things that lead to good outcomes for women. I know. Do you understand? When you say good outcomes now, the new thing you're calling feminism is good outcomes. And if it's not No, but if you just said you asked
02:06:43
Kyla (NotSoErudite)me to like somewhat operationalize it. The issue is what you're doing is again is that when it comes to zeitgeists, they're always popular social dialogue. They aren't operationalized fundamentally. That's their nature. This is why for example the skeptical is
02:06:54
Kyla (NotSoErudite)there any st I'll just ask liberalism I'll ask a different question let me finish I'm not done talking I know but you're not answering the question I am answering the question liberalism is a great example there are a whole bunch of ideas that are what liberalism is and liberalism is interesting because it's
02:07:08
Kyla (NotSoErudite)developed beyond that it has a couple of fundamental precepts that if you don't really value these things you're probably not a liberal so for example if you don't value women having some level of greater level of choice you're
02:07:20
Jim Bobprobably not a feminist I don't know why you would use that word. You just contradicted yourself. I just asked you if there's any standard by which you can tell someone they're not a feminist and you said no. I said I said broadly yes.
02:07:31
Jim BobI said it should be or no. I said it should be oriented towards the betterment of women. So is it possible that someone else has a standard for feminism that their betterment for women, right? Cuz you're you're actually
02:07:43
Kyla (NotSoErudite)assuming that you've established a standard for better. Now if there's if it's the case from your own view, no you're being semantic. What do you mean semantic? What does better mean? How do you define humanitarianism? I don't give
02:07:54
Jim Boba [ __ ] about humanitarianism. I reject it. It's an analogous. Satanic. But what is it? How do you define? It's satanic. That's how you define humanitarianism. Humanitarianism is a totally broad
02:08:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)secular view of healing the world. It's basically like a Talmudic uh basically worldview. Sure. But I'm sure you would agree that if you're going to call yourself a humanitarian, there's a certain level of like uh zeitgeist performance and thought that you should
02:08:17
Jim Bobprobably adopt. Well, not really because that's why I debate them too. And what I bring to the table is, isn't it possible you can be a humanitarian and off twothirds of the population?
02:08:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Uh, yes. What you know what I hear humanitarianism? Utilitarianism. So, are at this point are you just mad because Loki mad Loki's wager exists for most zeitgeist or like ideological? How is
02:08:41
Jim Bobtelling me I'm mad a counterargument to what I just said? I Okay, it's not. I'm making fun of you. Stop. Okay. Making fun of me is not going to work. You could make fun of me in addition to an argument like I do. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Right argument first. Just
02:08:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)just to go back. Okay. Make fun of you. You're big mad. Second second point. Um when it comes to ideological concepts, they typically aren't that operationally defined, but there's some level of collection identity that we tend to form
02:09:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)around that like all of us kind of agree is some concept of feminism, which is what Yes. So you can Okay. So you can agree something completely antithetical to those agreements, right? And it's still feminism. No, because none of the
02:09:18
Kyla (NotSoErudite)other feminists would agree to it, right? There's no collective. The question is if you don't agree with previous feminists, nobody would label something as feminist if it was like we should cut off women's clips and put them in jail. Everyone be like, "That's
02:09:31
Jim Bobnot feminist. Aren't there existing feminists of different waves that would say you're not a feminist?" Yeah, of course. Cool. That I'm sorry. Good job. You pointed out how ideologies work. Well, no. I'm pointing out that when I
02:09:43
Jim Bobask you, is there a form of feminism that can be presented? And aren't there Christians that could point at you and say that you're not a Christian? They could try, but there's actually a standard by which you can actually refute that. Yeah, there's some level of
02:09:55
Jim Bobstandards as well for feminism. It's not as Yes, there is. It's not as organized as something like a religion, which is an institution. What's the ultimate standard from which you're going to use when someone comes along and says, "I'm
02:10:07
Jim Boba feminist and my form of feminism argues that the best thing for women is to limit their liberties." How do you counter and say you're not a real feminist? Because I would say broadly
02:10:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism is for giving women uh greater access of choice and equalizing them as far as like opportunity. No, you're defining that, but I'm asking you that is broadly true. Is that objectively
02:10:28
Jim Bobtrue? Nothing about this is objective. you're talking about a Loki's wager concept. So if it's the case that your description of feminism is giving them more opportunities and liberty and all the and credit cards and debt and all
02:10:40
Jim Bobthis [ __ ] and someone comes along and says, "Well, I'm actually redefining feminism to mean xyz is the good." I'm asking you without asserting your your what you think is good. Do you have a
02:10:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)standard to which that you can use to say that this new one is not true? No. Essentially, you can always self ID into most ideological groups. The issue is that the ideological group will likely reject you, right? So, it's like, yeah,
02:11:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)there are feminists that don't think I'm feminist, but by and large, there is a lot of feminists who agree with most of my precepts because I am for the empowerment and betterment of women, which almost every single feminist on the planet has ever existed would be
02:11:15
Jim Boblike, okay, yeah, that's obviously some element of feminism. You're bringing What do you mean you're bringing this up? I'll do it slower. Slower. Okay. Your definition assumes a standard for betterment. Do you understand that?
02:11:29
Jim BobYeah. And that's what like the uh philosophical debate will be. Yes. Of course. So when someone comes and redefineses their standard for better, I'm asking you a simple question. There's Kyla's better for women and then
02:11:40
Jim Bobthere's an antithetical view for women that's has a different standard for better. What's the ultimate standard to determine which one's better? It's it's not an institution. There isn't one. There is no standard by which you
02:11:52
Jim Bobdetermine any feminism is good or bad. It's it's an ideological group. Of course not. Premise one, feminism is good for society. Premise two, there's no standard for good for society. Again, like I know you think that this
02:12:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)is a really strong argument. Well, it's a defeater. No, it's obviously the case that when it comes to like ideological philosophical things like egalitarianism or utilitarianism, there are certain things that you kind of have to agree on
02:12:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like trying to like lead to good outcomes for women with the good outcomes broadly being defined to some degree as freedom of opportunity that if you claim to be feminist but all you
02:12:29
Kyla (NotSoErudite)want to do is reduce opportunity, almost every single feminist universally will reject you. But obviously there's this gray window in between like Loki's wager where we're not quite sure where the head and the neck start where we can cut
02:12:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)off and say this is clearly what feminism is and this is clearly what it's not. But something that we can say that is not feminism is somebody who wants to point hijabs on women and cut off their clits. Like we can agree with that. That's their feminism. No feminism. They can just No, they can
02:12:56
Jim Bobjust say it's their feminism. Yeah, of course they can just say and you can't say [ __ ] back basic. You can't I would basically be like, "Yeah, you'd have to make a historical argument for what
02:13:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism is." Right. Sure. Uh to some call back. Sup Jay. Again, that's not a call back because all I was doing in that debate was asking him to define a word and he refused to and obuscated from defining the word because he knew
02:13:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that if he defined the word, then there would be operations by which and norms that we could actually talk about things. And if he couldn't gish gallop and like obuscate with like uh philosophy [ __ ] then he he didn't have anything to talk about, right?
02:13:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)which is why he basically said I won't do norms which is saying I will not actually be good faith with you in this conversation which is fine that was Jay's choice to do but it made it a useless conversation unfortunately which I appreciate that you were not doing
02:13:40
Brian Atlasmostly do you want to take that brief break right now uh we're going to take a uh slight break or Kylo is anyways uh just a slight break slight breather yeah
02:13:51
Brian Atlasopen up that all the way and I'm going to read uh we have a couple cash app messages from people I'll just give You guys, shout outs. Colin, thank for the 10 on Cash App. George, thank for the 10
02:14:02
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02:14:25
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02:14:37
Brian Atlasgetting Jim Bob's getting some beer, some water, some refreshments. Guys, if you're enjoying the stream, kindly like the video. So, if you're watching on Twitch, go to twitch.tv whatever. Drop us a
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02:15:26
Brian Atlaseverybody's all good to go for it, will be joining us tomorrow essentially for I guess a round two on our dating talk episode. They'll all be on the dating talk panel. That's tomorrow 5:00 p.m.
02:15:38
Brian AtlasPacific time here live. YouTube.com whatever if you'd like to see that. Let me see if we have And she is returning. We'll let some of the
02:15:49
Brian Atlaschats come through right now. So, we have the great my bestie. Uh, no, but somebody else. Blah blah blah
02:16:03
SPEAKER_006969696969696 donated $200. Here's one more. Gooditch. Let's see that MAGA cap. [Music]
02:16:12
Brian AtlasLulu Lulu Lulu. You know, we're we're 48 minutes away. The goal. There's 48 minutes left on the goal. We're 25 of 50. We need uh 10 or uh we need 10 and
02:16:24
Brian Atlasup. So, yellow super chats and up. We need 25 of those if you want to see Kyla here put on a MAGA hat. So, there's that. Thank you for that, though. We have uh blah blah blah. Thank you for
02:16:34
SPEAKER_00the big $200 message. We have Giovani here. Crack it up. Giovani J. He donated $100. This [ __ ] heretic doesn't understand
02:16:44
SPEAKER_00how his sper reaction was exactly my point and why you're bad. It's both of us. You still suck and are legitimately evil. A
02:16:56
Jim Bobfet and shut up, Giovani. Your name's stupid anyway. No one cares. Hey, that's some Italian crime. Yeah, I'm Sicilian. What are you? Oh, Giovani. Yeah, what are you? Giovani.
02:17:08
SPEAKER_00Raised by a mom. There you go. We have Jason here. Thank you, Jason. Appreciate it. Jason Castle donated $100. Not so erodu tactics are literally the
02:17:18
SPEAKER_00intelligent application of force, especially in warfare. Are you dumb or are you just intentionally being ignorant? You like to respond to uh Jason there. Uh read about master
02:17:29
Brian Atlasmorality and then we'll take it from there. It's NZA by the way. Okay, we have a super chat here coming in from let me just uh from Zoe Carrer. Hey Zoe, thanks for the big super chat.
02:17:41
Brian AtlasAppreciate it. I feel like having the privilege to stay home while my man works, even though I could go out and get a job is the ultimate form of feminism. Mothers being home with
02:17:51
Brian Atlaschildren is what's best for society. Not unnecessarily fighting for jobs we don't want. Hey Zoe, thank you very much for the uh super chat. Really appreciate it.
02:18:01
SPEAKER_00Then we have Chief Dill Pickles here. Chef Dill Pickles donated $100. this one. Jim Bob Steelman her position then refute it expeditiously in Jordan
02:18:14
Jim BobPeterson's voice, please. Okay, go for it. Well, it sounds like your position is this. It's that. And I I take it you're also Canadian. Is that Is that correct? I actually live like 5 hours
02:18:25
Jim Bobfrom You live next to me. Well, that makes me really feel nice inside. Look, it's as simple as this. I actually agree with Jim Bob. I'm going to try to steal
02:18:36
Jim Bobman you. You believe that it's actually best for women ultimately to be in the home. Correct? No. Yes. That's what she
02:18:45
Brian Atlassaid. She's a liar. Demon spawn. Good one. Clean your kitchen. Got it. I think we need a champagne pop for that. Jordan Peterson impression. That was really
02:18:57
Brian Atlasgood. Uh, thank you. And in fact, if we do get a champagne pop, Jim Bob has to do the rest of the show as No, I will not. It'll ruin my my entire soul. He'll do the last 10 minutes of the show as
02:19:09
SPEAKER_00Jordan Peterson. How about that? Uh, okay. We have Inquisitor Zeal here. Guys, if by the way, get one in $100. Inquisitor Zal donated $100. Thank you, Inquisitor. She said, "Depends on your moral system, and that individual might
02:19:21
SPEAKER_00decide." So again, she's saying that each individual is the source of moral duty. Her ego is her god. Individualism is her religion.
02:19:33
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Uh no. Uh most people tend to use some level of like a secular utilitarian framework which is broadly what people like operate off of. Um when I try to evaluate people's like moral systems, I try to understand like what they
02:19:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)believe. I hold them to what they believe first and foremost and then what their society believes. And then there are certain things that I think are like greater moral imperatives that like most people would universally agree you should follow. Like cannibalism is bad.
02:19:57
Jim BobMost people would agree with Is your husband also whatever share your Christian uh view radical orthodox? Yeah, he does. Does that view hold that he's ultimately the say in the house
02:20:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like pointing in the direction of where you guys are going, where you live? Uh yeah, like more he's he's like the final veto, but he's um he truly understands
02:20:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that like the wife is uh is the church to Christ, right? like he's the head and you're the neck as in like Christ died for the body. And so there's a there's a
02:20:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)leading from like deep care, right? Like Nick Nick doesn't tell me that I must respect him because he's a man. I respect Nick's decisions even when we might disagree because he fundamentally
02:20:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)has the best interest for both of us in mind and I trust him in that. I don't think all husbands are that way. Nick is exceptional. That's what I'm asking is if you guys had a disagreement on a direction or an issue or I would honor him. Even if you actually knew maybe you
02:20:56
Jim Bobwere correct. Uh yeah, basically I'd honor him. And what is that's derivative of your Christian view, right? Uh yeah. Do you
02:21:06
Jim Bobthink a society made up of women who follow that is better than a society of rebellious women who don't follow that? Uh no, because I don't think most men uh actually deserve the level of respect
02:21:18
Jim Bobthat I give Nick. That might be true. But if it were the case that they were all Nicks, would it be better for the rest of the women to be you? Yeah. If everyone was a [ __ ] amazing person,
02:21:29
Jim Bobyeah, society would be better. I sure. Yeah, of course. Okay. But men are not like most men are not, Nick. Most I understand. I'm just saying there there is a circumstance in which you actually do submit as the woman in the house to
02:21:42
Jim Bobthe leader who's the man. It's reflective of a Christian view. even if we disagree on on uh the truth of Christianity between us or our our doctrine or whatever is that um ultimately if it were the case that men
02:21:54
Jim Bobwere fulfilling the role of a Christian patriarch in a sense for the family in society, it would make sense to you that the women would then follow the men, right? Uh yeah, like by and large I just
02:22:06
Kyla (NotSoErudite)think like uh most modern forms of like fundamental Christianity set up men to be extremely bad patriarchs. I don't think that they're Christ to the church at all. They don't die for their women. They don't like put their family first
02:22:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)foremost. Um, I think Christian men are oftentimes extremely led astray uh and very cruel. And I think a good man also respects his woman and like listens to her and takes her uh thoughts and
02:22:30
Jim Bobopinions very seriously in like weighing out decisions, right? I mean, that's what I'm just getting. I just wanted to get to. It sounds like a type of version of Christianity you're really partial to
02:22:41
Jim Bobthat if it was multiplied it would make sense to hold the patriarchal uh view and practice inside of a country and then even inside of the home it would make sense for the women to follow the man if these conditions were met. I just
02:22:54
Jim Bobwouldn't force it ever. I don't believe in a society that forces these things. Right. But it's you would advocate for it. uh the forcing or like No, no, just advocate for the that patriarchal
02:23:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)hierarchal system. Uh I don't know if I would advocate for that for non-Christians cuz I I Yeah, I understand. Like why would the man ever have Well, I agree. I
02:23:15
Jim Bobthink um I think uh secular marriage and all that uh is is a useless like thing to do from their paradigm. doesn't even make sense why
02:23:26
Jim Bobyou why unless it was strictly like this law-based advantage. But you know when when we marry in Christianity, we're married to something bigger than each other. Yeah. There's the covenant with Christ. There's a whole thing to it.
02:23:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Whereas a secular marriage, you're basically marrying each other's preferences until they change. Uh I think most secular people would disagree with you pretty strongly on that. I think a lot of secular people still embody a pretty high value for like
02:23:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)long-term commitment. Um, I just think that when it comes to like a secular relationship, like for me, when I look at that, they're missing like a core cornerstone that pulls them together long-term over time, which would be Christ. But that's not something I would
02:24:03
Jim Bobever, right? But here's the difference here is that um from a Christian position, even like uh the whole variety of Christian Christian um proponents,
02:24:15
Jim Bobthey have an act they have an obligation to stay married. Like that would be the ideal, right? There's an obligation there, a moral obligation. Secularism has no there's no real moral obligation. I would disagree. Like for example, the
02:24:26
Kyla (NotSoErudite)moment that you have children, for example, um I think there's an extremely high pressure even for secular people to try to make it work, right?
02:24:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)children have adopted into their broadmerame loyalty that's earned over time because I think most people recognize that loyalty regardless of God is val I'm just saying there's a I'm
02:24:51
Jim Bobsaying the difference between just a mere intuition that they should probably make it work versus an obligation that's beyond their own preferences it's not an intuition right unless they're like moral intuitivists which most people are
02:25:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like not early. Most people aren't anything. Most people don't have like a way this way, but they broadly have a utility. Do you attend a place that's a building that you call a church? Okay. Um the other people at your church who
02:25:16
Jim Bobknow you're married, if your marriage was in trouble, it would make sense that not only they're obligated, but they're there to support you uh in your marriage. Right. Again, when you say
02:25:27
Jim Bobobligated, do you mean it's something that is good to do? Yeah. It's a part of the Christian uh practice that that you're actually because you're married to a church essentially of something
02:25:39
Jim Bobbigger that you're actually you're trying to keep that intact in a way. It's not just your little uh temporal relationship. But I'm saying in a secular view, they don't actually have
02:25:50
Jim Bobsomething bigger outside of themselves. Even if you include a kid, they're just making the marriage include another person. But there's nothing outside of them that they're appealing to that's bigger than them metaphysically,
02:26:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)spiritually. It's just like not spiritually obviously, but they have like the the community that you're appealing to that the Christians have. Most secular people have a very um interconnected community that would be
02:26:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)pushing towards that relationship working out being the in-laws and probably the shared mutual friends, right? And ideally, I think most secular people would agree that the community of friends that is around this couple if they're having issues should come around
02:26:26
Kyla (NotSoErudite)them and support them and obviously like hope and wish and try to help in whatever way they can to help that couple stay together. I think most secular people hold this value. Interesting. I don't know if that's act I don't know that might be the case.
02:26:38
Jim BobIt's just that it seems to me if if they're secular, they're looking at basically they're measuring like tradeoffs like like material trade-offs like well this could be an advantage but
02:26:50
Jim Bobthen you weigh it against this. And from that view I feel like what I'm trying to say is that the paradigm that's judging the the trial and tribulation what it is is fundamentally different between a Christian and a secular like how they
02:27:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)frame the problem. It's fundamentally different. The issue is that like I think Christians and non-Christians get divorced at pretty much the same rate. So it's like yeah, I would agree that like the systems by which they derive
02:27:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)their value of loyalty is different. It doesn't change that the value of loyalty is there and it doesn't work for about 50% of couples anyways, right? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. A Christianity will also
02:27:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)cause like marriages to stay together forever that are deeply loveless and like awful, right? which is like something that I don't think is good necessarily. Like Christians will look at the 30-year couple that [ __ ] hate each other. They just live with each
02:27:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)other and they'll be like, "Look at what a good thing." It's like, "That's not a good thing. That's death." Like two people that live together that forgot the shadow of what it meant to be in love. Just gripping on because like they
02:27:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feel God tells them to. That's not God's will at all. What they should be doing is like surrendering themselves and figuring out what the issue is. Yeah. That's why I think um Christianity has a
02:28:02
Jim Bobbetter perspective because they can actually even against your preferences in the moment. It's actually uh it's probably a good thing to have people externally also accountable to you
02:28:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)staying together. I just think that's stronger. I just think that's stronger from a Christian view. Even if you're It does sound stronger at a logical level to some degree. The issue is it just it's not borne out in any of the stats. And I would add to that I don't know if
02:28:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you were going in this direction. It shouldn't be law. It shouldn't be a law. It should not. No. I think when like um Christianity blends with politics, like power and politics, I think it ruins the faith. I think it's really bad for the
02:28:39
Jim Bobfaith. Wait a second. That's interesting because you agreed before that if a Christian votes on a policy, you wouldn't you wouldn't expect them to not
02:28:50
Kyla (NotSoErudite)vote on a policy without it being it being informed by their theology, right? Uh yeah. But that doesn't mean that Christianity like I I don't believe in like theocracies like I I don't think
02:29:01
Jim BobChristianity should run the country. I think I understand. But a theocracy let's say isn't it already the case that people who have a Christian view if they
02:29:11
Jim Bobget elected as a representative of the people because of their Christian view. They're also saying that their Christian view is going to inform the policies. So in fact, it's unavoidable to live in a
02:29:24
Jim Bobsystem, even a pluralistic system like ours. It's unavoidable for people to pursue politics and not have it have their theology influence what the policy
02:29:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)almost at all. Uh unless unless there's somebody running who's like, I'm going to get rid of freedom of religion. Then I would vote for my theology if I got you. But I'm saying I vote on foreign policy. I don't think it's fundamental that Christians need to vote based on their faith. And I actually think that
02:29:48
Kyla (NotSoErudite)it leads to a lot of What else would they vote on though? What nation states are for, which is like foreign policy and sovereignty. I think it's way more important to have a president that like knows how to navigate global trade and
02:30:00
Jim Bobto be like a nice Christian guy. Hold on a second. What's informing ethically? Cuz when you vote, you're informed by some meta metaethical view. I'm I'm a
02:30:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)I'm a real Do you know what real politic is? No. It's like a philosophy of politics that's like deeply pragmatic and devoid of moral moral stuff. Like you don't It's impossible. Nope. Uh it's impossible. It's just pure pragmatism.
02:30:23
Jim BobNo pragmatism. There's no way. Cuz then you're saying then you're making an ought claim to do the most pragmatic thing. That's not a moral claim. Ought we do the most pragmatic thing. That's not a moral claim. It's not. Nope. Not
02:30:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)at like a government's level. Oh. So the government that I think is going to enact the best policy for the my sovereignty to do well. Is your sovereignty a morally good thing or not?
02:30:47
Jim BobIt's neutral. But like I like if I violate your sovereignty, is it immoral? Uh depends on how you violate it. But uh if I violate your sovereignty, your your free will invade. Yeah. Yeah. Like just
02:30:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)invade. Limit your ability to move uh do things in the world. If it's the case, Kyla. Yeah. Like at an individual. I understand. But do you understand the intellation immoral if it invades your
02:31:10
Jim Bobsovereignty? Cuz you're we're talking about nations now again. Well, I'm pointing to a nation consists of its people. So there's an individual level and a collective level of a nation. Sovereignty isn't about like I don't
02:31:21
Jim Bobhave an individual sovereignty for a country to protect to keep its identity sovereign against foreign invasion. A moral good. Yeah.
02:31:32
Jim BobBecause isn't it wouldn't it be immoral for another nation to invade your the sovereignty and break the sovereignty. Is it immoral to break somebody else's sovereignty? I need to think about that. I'm not sure. But I don't know if it's
02:31:44
Jim Bobmoral. I think it's just fundamental. Like why are you a nation if you're not protecting sovereignty to like I understand. But I think that this example is perfect because if it's the case that it's immoral, if you want to
02:31:58
Jim Bobthink about it further, it's fine. But just think about it this way. If it's immoral for another nation to invade another and break up its sovereignty and violate all that. If that's immoral,
02:32:07
Kyla (NotSoErudite)then it's moral to fight against that. Uh, yep. Uh, I'm just that's why I said I'm not sure. Like it my knee is like, yeah, it feels icky to invade other sovereignty. Is it moral though? I'm not
02:32:20
Kyla (NotSoErudite)sure. It's hard to it's hard to view nations at like a moral and immoral level. Well, that's why I point to They probably can. So, it probably is, but again, there might be reasons by which
02:32:32
Jim Bobyou invade another country's sovereignty that are like legitimate, like taking out terror cells. Will it be morally legitimate? Yeah. Like um um taking out terror cells in Lebanon is Yeah. That's what I'm saying is if you vote on foreign policy, you're ultimately asking
02:32:44
Jim Boba metaethical or moral question given the situation. So, it's never that's why I say pragmatism. Even if you establish some sort of strict rules of like outcomes that you like or don't like, ultimately when we press you on it,
02:32:57
Jim Bobyou're going to actually have to eventually you'll be forced just like the example I gave to give a moral statement about something because pragmatism Yeah. I just demonstrated. No, when I'm talking about foreign policy, I'm not talking about like moral
02:33:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)behavior. what I'm mostly talking about is like free trade and things that like better my living as a result of how we engage with like the global let's take let's take even more of a domestic issue because the the conversation and I want
02:33:21
Jim Bobto debate this more with other people is this conversation of like keep your theology out of my my business keep your theology out of politics keep it out of policy right this is a constant thing
02:33:32
Jim Bobwell do you are you for like welfareism safety nets yep okay so from your perspective Do you take an amoral approach to help people in their safety net like with
02:33:44
SPEAKER_05their safety nets uh as like an individual or is it just pragmatic that you should help people in need? It's definitely super pragmatic. It's it's also moral. Okay. Some things can be
02:33:54
Jim Bobmoral and pragmatic. Okay. So, is that an example of you being totally fine voting on a policy that's both pragmatic and moral if it's informed by your your
02:34:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)theology? Uh yeah, sure. I'm I'm not opposed to people like just vote like I Yeah. I don't know what you think my idea is. I'm not opposed to people voting because of their theology. I'm opposed to people voting only for their
02:34:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)theology. Right. Because the best president for our nation isn't just like the nice Christian guy. It's the guy who understands how to interact with our like global neighbors. Well, I
02:34:27
Jim Bobunderstand. But that just comes back to how do what paradigm is evaluating the interaction if it's not your if it's not ultimately your theology. It's pretty pragmatic, right? Because you can have a president who's a massive bag of like
02:34:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)bag of dicks. He's just a shitty person, but he's really good at trade. He gets us really good trade deals. The allies really like him and he does a really good job of like breaking up the axis of
02:34:50
Jim Bobresistance, right? But he's a [ __ ] right? I understand. But that's so that's the you're now switching it to who you vote for that does stuff. What I'm asking is even if you voted for a
02:35:01
Jim Bobtotal atheist that just somehow I did switch it. You were talking about who I would vote for. Well, I'm saying so I didn't switch. Well, I'm saying to be clear vote for or policies. So, if they're conjoined, that's fine. It's Yeah, but I wasn't switching. I don't know why you said I'm saying isn't it
02:35:13
Jim Bobpossible that a total douchebag who doesn't even share your values for some reason uh um is really good at executing all the policies you support. Right.
02:35:24
Jim BobThat's what I said. Okay. If that's possible, aren't you still voting for them based on your theological evaluation of what you think is good? Nope. I would. No. What's evaluating
02:35:34
Jim Bobwhat's good then? Pragmatism. Yeah. Pragmatism. It when you say what works. Yeah. But why isn't something that works? Aren't you saying it's morally good that it works? Because there's things that can be like beneficial that
02:35:45
Jim Bobare morally neutral. So you want to benefit society, but but your standard for what benefits society isn't a moral claim or an ethical claim. Sometimes it's a moral claim and sometimes it's not a moral claim. Right. where like the
02:35:58
Jim Boblike like this is the problem with using the word good is that like good can mean moral but it can also just mean something functional like good outcome right or performance like a good basketball team is performatively good but they're not morally good because
02:36:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they're awesome or if I buy a Porsche right it's like a good exchange the guy who sells it to me is happy I'm happy because I have a Porsche it's not morally good to buy a Porsche right but then it gets into uh fuzzy territory when you like for the examples of like
02:36:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)invading terror cells exactly which is why I granted you where I'm like uh invading sovereign feels icky, but there's probably a number of situations where I would think it's legitimate, like invading terrorist. Like I think bombing the Houthies was great based
02:36:35
Jim Bobbomb them away. [ __ ] those guys. Yeah, but you said that someone shouldn't vote primarily on their theology. But even if they voted for a guy who doesn't believe what they believe, but all of their
02:36:45
Jim Bobpolicies aligned with their the voters's theology, the the voter could still vote on the total bag of dicks, right? fully on their based on their theology and it
02:36:57
Jim Bobwould actually this is the thing here here. Put it this way. Isn't it possible that voting fully on your theology is the most pragmatic thing? Nope. It's not possible. What? I don't I don't think
02:37:08
Kyla (NotSoErudite)so. No, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that Christians do based on our religion that like is less functional. Like this is why the path to hell is wide and the path to heaven's narrow because it's really hard to just
02:37:20
Kyla (NotSoErudite)do always the morally upright thing. It's really difficult and I don't want to hold nations to that standard. I want nations to mostly operate in neutrality by and large and benefit us. I
02:37:31
Jim Bobunderstand what you're saying, but you just said it's logically impossible that an instance of voting fully on your theology can't be pragmatic. Yeah. So, like in the Christian theology, well,
02:37:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)yeah, I substantiated why. Because I think as a Christian like Christians um at a spiritual level I think are often required to do things that are deeply unpragmatic because it's the right I
02:37:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)understand that actually I think I think like a a purely Christian leader who's operating out of Christian principles is probably going to make a pretty ineffective nation leader. I agree that a lot of times we're challenged with
02:38:05
Jim Bobpragmatism or what's good and what's good isn't always what's pragmatic. I'm not arguing whether that those things can um not align at some points. Often they don't. But that's a different
02:38:16
Jim Bobquestion of whether it's logically possible to have to vote on a policy that's wholly aligned and and informed by your theology and it's also
02:38:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)pragmatic. Well, like policy. No, no, no. Well, you said a leader like a leader is more than one policy. One policy. Yeah, of course it can be pragmatic and theological. when you said is can you vote for some person who
02:38:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)represents all of your theology and have him be also the most pragmatic leader and I was like uh for Christianity probably not because Christianity is constantly dying to self turning the
02:38:51
Jim Bobother cheek like the ultimate Christian leader probably shouldn't bomb anyone so you don't hold a view that most of the uh secular worldview uh holds is that they always say um I'm fine with you
02:39:04
Jim Bobbelieving what you believe it's just when you um you inform policy from that and you enforce XYZ, right? Yeah. Like I don't want Sharia law. I don't like that. Right. But that's a particular
02:39:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)kind of thing. I agree with you. But if I can't if I if I tell Muslims that their religious practice can't be like telling me what to do. I can't tell secularists that my religious practice now gets to tell them what to do at a
02:39:28
Jim Bobcriminal level. I understand. But that means that if you held that position like most secularists do, they are arguing from this position that says, "I just don't want to force my
02:39:39
Jim Bobbeliefs on you and I don't want you and I don't want you to force your beliefs on me." Right? Y that's what they're saying. Yeah. However, the problem is there are people who, let's say, don't believe in rights.
02:39:51
Jim BobYep. Isn't it the case that the group of people who believe in rights, given that's a belief, are forcing their belief on other people? Uh, I mean, I think you can technically like there's like a thing where you can become like
02:40:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)an uncitizen essentially. Oh, those people. Yeah. They don't do very well. You can Yeah, it's just it's just [ __ ] Like, yeah, I suppose we're like forcing people to have human rights, but that's just like the trade-off that we're willing to do. There are some things Well, some people
02:40:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)don't are born into it. We also force people not to murder, right? We like force people to pay taxes. There's lots of things that we force people to do. One of the things that I think we shouldn't do is force religion as a
02:40:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Christian specifically because I want people to find Christ and like his gift of salvation is like what turns their hearts to him. I'm not advocating force. I'm I'm not advocating for force. uh you
02:40:39
Jim Bobcan't force people to believe things for one, but you can't uh I'm not saying the I'm not advocating I'm actually running just a basic hypothetical uh an inquiry to demonstrate that it's actually
02:40:51
Jim Bobimpossible to live in an ordered society without a predominant belief being forced onto people and the question only becomes what are the beliefs? So it's like I'm a liberal, right? So like my
02:41:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)answer to that predicament is like the beliefs we should have should probably maximize things like freedom of choice, freedom of like association, freedom of movement, freedom of thought, and
02:41:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)freedom of speech. These things seem to be damn near miraculous that we came to when we look historically at societies that didn't have this thing. It's not a good time. Can I ask a clarification about that list? Sure. Do you uh you
02:41:27
Jim Bobsaid freedom of movement? I usually debate a libertarian on this particular topic. Sure. Would you include in that list I don't know if you said it but freedom uh like property like owning property
02:41:40
Jim Bobuh like do I believe in private property? Yeah I believe in property cool. So if you include that um if it were the case that all of the land every square inch of the US was owned privately then you would have no freedom
02:41:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)of mobility. Yeah. Yeah. Those Palestinians play it right now. Yes. So like this is the classic Calvin and Hobbes question which is that like freedom often comes in tension with security because there's certain freedoms that we always opt to give up
02:42:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)to maintain security. This is why open borders is usually not a good idea because if you have open borders you have no level of security for your nation, right? Which is why borders are valuable and it's a restriction on a freedom of movement that most people are
02:42:18
Jim Bobwilling to accept in exchange for the security. Do you agree that most women feminists vote in favor of security over liberty? Cuz that's the that's the that's the stat. When you say security,
02:42:30
Jim Bobdo you mean like personal security or general? It could be personal. It could be just a general like well I want to be safe which is totally aligned with their nature like to want to be safe. But the problem is if you and I both agree that
02:42:43
Jim Bobthere is this constant tension and dance between freedom and security and it happens to be the case that women voting actually work against what both of you and I think is generally something you have to explore.
02:42:55
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Well, I like both of these things like have you ever read Jonathan Height? Um so you know his idea of like the moral presuppositions that back behind conservativism versus like liberalism and the value systems and these are
02:43:07
Kyla (NotSoErudite)pretty biological. In fact, it's like more than ide. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So, you're familiar. So, in my mind, essentially, yes, women, if they were more concerned about personal security,
02:43:18
Kyla (NotSoErudite)probably would be more pro-rightwing, but I think women just prioritize things like caring for others more than they do for that thing. Right. I understand. But let's like I just want to point
02:43:28
Jim Bobsomething out of women. If it were the case that women were still in the home and and uh held the position of the woman in the home from a Christian lens and the man held the position as the
02:43:40
Jim Bobprovider and protector of the home, the thing that they're earn that they're yearning for without that like let's say they didn't have a husband or anybody, it makes sense that they're going to look for the security in the government
02:43:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)if they don't have it directly in their environment, right? I mean, I'm married with a husband with a gun, and I definitely look for security from my government before I look for it from my husband. Really? Yeah. I'd prefer to
02:44:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)call the police than be like, "Nick, go get him." Yeah. Obviously, police have body armor. They have like tactical training. Yeah. But the Yeah, but the police have no obligation to protect you. Uh, typically when you have a house intruder, you can call them and they
02:44:15
Jim Bobwill protect you. Well, no. They are going to uh get the guy who violated a crime, but they actually have no obligation to protect you like like stop. You know what I mean? I know we we
02:44:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)did this song and dance before. I just think you're like being a little bit finiggly with words, right? Like obviously when I'm like the Supreme Court though, I understand, right? But the issue is that Supreme Court is specifically finiggly with words. I
02:44:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)imagine if you ask most police officers, what do they say their duty is? To serve and protect, right? Serve and protect what? Not people. No, that's a that's a slogan. It's not people. You You think police officers don't feel that they're
02:44:52
Jim Bobtrying to serve and protect citizens? No, they're serving something and they're they're protecting what? The community. No, they're protecting basically the the law and the constitution. I think they're serving the law and they're protecting It's
02:45:05
Jim Bobboth. They're not protecting you. That's for sure. I mean I mean they don't think you're using a colloquialism like like I understand the colloquial uh aspect of what you're
02:45:15
Jim Bobsaying. It's just that actually like they have no obligation to protect you. It's just good to know that if that's the case, then Nick, your husband should
02:45:26
Jim Bobtake that to heart and say, you know what, if someone's in the home, if it's a choice between calling the cops and waiting and having your your gun out, well, these are not this is a false. I
02:45:38
Jim Bobunderstand that's not either or, but if it's the case that you're waiting for the police, but you could actually Yeah, you should also have self-defense. Should you stop the intruder before the police come then? Yeah, of course. But that's not like what I'm arguing for, right? Like I'm obviously You would you
02:45:51
Jim Bobwould hide and wait for the police to show up. And it's like, are you trained in in in using a weapon? Uh, yeah. Oh, good. Why wouldn't you Why would you be trained in using a weapon to not use the weapon? I don't understand. Because of one gun and Nick's definitely going to
02:46:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)use the weapon before I do. [ __ ] that [ __ ] So, you affirm gender roles. Uh, yeah. He's also better with the gun in fairness. Like, if I if he hadn't ever used a gun before and I was like very I
02:46:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)was like a My dad is like this like highly competitive. He's like a super shooter, whatever. And if say I trained under my dad, then I should have the gun in the case of the home intruder. But he's better with the gun. He's got more
02:46:26
Jim Bobcomfortability with violence. It's more his pension to do. Interesting. So I this How about this idea? I'm also a [ __ ] when it comes to violence. When you're walking on the street, given that logic, do you think that the man has an
02:46:39
Jim Bobobligation? Let's say you're walking on the street and there's an aggressor across the street and you know that something can be done perhaps to stop. You don't know if you're going to win or not. Do you think you're obligated to go
02:46:50
Jim Bobor your husband to go fight the aggressor? Neither people are obligated. You have no obligation. When you say obligated, do you mean they ought to? Well, yeah, that you ought to from from your view that you ought to help the
02:47:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)person. Yeah, but I would say like a police officer ought to to a much higher degree. This is why after like the school shooting in Texas when the officers just waited outside even though technically they're not obligated to go in and intervene with the shooter while
02:47:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they're allowed. Every single person in society said these cops are what's not a slur? Uh [ __ ] losers. Yeah. [ __ ] losers. Right. So there's there's this premise of like yeah, police don't
02:47:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)aren't obligated to protect us, but obviously we have a social expectation that like we probably should try to intervene. Well, that's what I'm saying is like from a from a societal view, um,
02:47:38
Jim Bobif everyone knew, everyone held a view that they were obligated to aggress against people who were who were doing harm or doing illegal things even before the cops arrived. I feel like we live in
02:47:50
Jim Boba society that's so like closed off, you're afraid to like intervene on anything. Uh, you're just closed off your own individual bubble. You're like, I'm not dealing with that. Um, I feel
02:48:02
Jim Boblike that's a a kind of a breakdown of the moral fabric and and to tie it back into feminism, the reason I asked that question is I wondered if debating you on gender roles is not is just a not
02:48:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like we already agree like that you affirm gender roles. The the main difference would be I would never compel women to be in any specific gender role or men, right? I I'm fine with the fact that men and women tend to naturally fall into these dynamics and as long as
02:48:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)it works for the couple, that's fine. My biggest thing, I'm I'm truly a liberal in the most obnoxious way. I want people to choose. I want people to have choice and I hate it when big government tries
02:48:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)to force choices, especially when it comes to private lives. I think that's bad. But do you plan on being a mother? Uh probably. I don't know if I can. Okay. Like at a biological level, just because of like some health stuff, but
02:48:51
Jim BobI'd like to. Well, the reason I asked that is like if you have a a son or a daughter, let's say you have a son and
02:48:59
Jim Bobyou perceive that his natural in inclination is more gentle, but you also know it's better for him in the long run
02:49:09
Jim Bobto develop some sort of ability to be an aggressor if he needed to. Would you inter would you intervene with what you thought his natural inclination was and nudge him into something that occurred
02:49:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)to you as unnatural uh to like make him more functional? Probably to some degree, but I think if he resisted it to a high level, there's a certain level of like, yeah, you want your kids to be likable and like function in society. And I think good
02:49:34
Kyla (NotSoErudite)parents should try to like help that happen. But if you have a kid who's so atypical from society that to force him into that would do more damage than to not, then you should I understand. I'm just saying like like there's more to
02:49:46
Jim Bobthis is that it's it's beyond gender. It's like especially if you if you say you you hold a Christian view, you're constantly battling against human
02:49:58
Jim Bobproclivities and what people are naturally drawn to do. Now, you're just assuming, well, people are naturally toward certain um certain um talents or
02:50:09
Jim Bobthings like this, but that includes people being drawn to proclivities that you actually have to correct. And that's why it it does tie back to feminism because um I'm glad you push back. at
02:50:20
Jim Bobleast you're reserved about women arguing that they're super empowered doing pornography at age 24 or or younger or older and they're not
02:50:31
Jim Bobconsidering long-term effects of it. Uh what like you said, you're judging the the behavior based on the future self like would you still do this like
02:50:42
Jim Bobcurrent and past? Yeah. Yeah. Which is obviously very difficult to do. Uh but um that's why that's why I think you can't really hold a Christian view and not be in a constant uh potential state
02:50:54
Kyla (NotSoErudite)of intervention not just with your family but with society itself at at large. Uh I think I think it's just this like tension. It it there's a there's an element it's the Calvin and Hobbes again there's a certain level of like freedom
02:51:06
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that you want people to have to self-actualize. I think that like diversity of ideas and concepts and individuals is good. And when I say diversity, I don't mean like skin color. That's fine, too. When I talk about diversity, though, I mean like different
02:51:18
Kyla (NotSoErudite)expressions of humanity. I think that's really good. And there's a certain level of like nudging towards social normativity that helps people function and flourish. And when you have kiddos, I think you have to constantly do the tension of letting your kiddos be them
02:51:31
Jim Boband also teaching them like Yeah. The whole diversity thing I think is kind of [ __ ] because um you would have to include people in public walking each other on like leather and like they're they're in like leather panties and
02:51:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)stuff. That's diversity, right? No. Like you're making like a slippery soap fallacy. Just because I like want people to be able to like do and like self-express, that doesn't mean that I want ultimate maximal self-expression. Otherwise, like Dexter would be like, I
02:51:56
Jim Boblove killing people. No, no, forget about the ill forget about the aggressing on other people. This is where basically every libertarian argument uh goes, which you you kind of are libertarian. It sounds like would
02:52:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you categorize yourself as like a libertarian feminist or something? No, I'm I'm pretty like standard liberal. Like I really am cuz I I I just to be clear, I'm still pro welfare state and
02:52:19
Jim Bobstill pro like uh market regulation. This is why I liberal camp. It's ultimately going to be your theological view and your ethical view that's going
02:52:30
Jim Bobto try to justify the forceful intervention of public degeneracy in instances where nothing's being actually broken, no properties being damaged, there's nothing being
02:52:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)stolen, there's no one actually physically being aggressed or harmed, but it's degenerate, right? Yep. Yeah. And it's way more. It's like um you say you have a person and they love [ __ ] in public and
02:52:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they also clean up after themselves. So they drop their pants, they take a massive [ __ ] in the middle of the street. You hear that libertarians and then they clean up after themselves, right? There's this question like the libertarian bees like well they should
02:53:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)be able to do that. I'm like there's a certain level of like social functional performativity that you should engage in where you like don't thrust your taboos on other people. So like the leather walking I think is essentially thrusting
02:53:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)your taboos onto other people that are not a What about homosexuality? Uh uh yeah I basically think that that's uh a taboo that I'm glad that we've reduced to not being a taboo. Yeah. Oh, so you
02:53:27
Jim Bobare so public display of homosexuality is not something but the dog walking thing is something you want to crack down on. But the p like uh pride parades
02:53:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)uh active simulated sexuality on on uh on the back of trucks. That's good. Nope. That's not what I said when you said homosexuality and I was picturing like gay men walking down the street holding hands and stuff like that. Like
02:53:50
Kyla (NotSoErudite)I think that's fine under a Christian view. Yep. Really? Yeah. If if they're like secular people. Yeah. Why would I tell them that they can't do that? Well, I didn't say they can't do it. I'm saying Well, you're basically saying that I should find a structure by which
02:54:02
Jim BobI enforce that gay man. Well, I'm trying to find the threshold at which you um you use the bulldozer to clean the streets. You said the the [ __ ] in the streets is a no no. Yep. Right. Mhm.
02:54:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Uh how about wearing like a dildo on your head? Um again, if you're in like certain public spaces where everyone's consenting to that, I don't care. Like say you go to like a gay bar and that's
02:54:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like a fun No, no. out in the street where kids are. Um, yeah. Like I don't think most parents are consenting to their kids like seeing that. So, you probably shouldn't do that. Okay. But the thing is, have you ever seen a gay
02:54:36
Jim Bobpride parade? Yep. Do you think that I support everything that happens at gay pride parades? I didn't say that. I said, is there a is there something that you'd seen at a gay pride parade that
02:54:46
Jim Bobyou would use force to remove? Um, use force to remove? No, I would use like social pressure. Oh, so now pressure does work. Before you were like, well, we can't really shame. Yeah, shame. That's social pressure. No, social
02:54:58
Jim Bobpressure can be like more than that, right? Shame isn't the only method by which you I'm interested. What else? I want all I want all tools of social pressure to be uh you can use guilt systems. That's sh that's shame. Shame
02:55:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)and guilt are functionally very different especially at a psychological level and like affecting change of behavior. You can also use uh like positive reinforcement structures to make certain behaviors like more likely
02:55:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)to occur. So like tax writeoffs for EV is a way that you socially coers people to do EV, etc., etc. How do you use
02:55:29
Jim Bobsocial pressure to get two lisping dudes in their thongs in public to not do that? Uh you I think you can use some level of conversation around like consent like essentially uh it's