1v1 DEBATE: Jimbob vs. NotSoErudite -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #16
Date: 2025-05-11
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Kyla (NotSoErudite)(guest)
SPEAKER_04Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:18
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Kyla (NotSoErudite) on feminism
00:02:00
Key MomentJim Bob opens: feminism is self-contradictory, depends on patriarchal power it opposes
01:40:03
Key MomentKyla concedes she defers to husband Nick on final decisions, honoring Christian headship
02:13:45
QuoteKyla: having children is 'amoral'/neutral — prompts Jim Bob to challenge her Christian credentials
03:02:18
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism has no standard and no obligations
03:06:05
Key MomentKyla closing: Jim Bob doesn't know three branches of government or understand GDP
Topics Discussed
00:02:00
Definition of Feminism
Jim Bob: self-contradictory (depends on patriarchal structures it opposes). Kyla: empowerment of women and promotion of femininity.
00:29:00
Force Doctrine and Patriarchy
Whether society is underpinned by male force. Jim Bob: women's rights are allowances granted by men. Kyla rejects 'stolen valor' framing.
01:36:00
Feminism's Lack of Duties
Jim Bob: feminism has no built-in duties/obligations unlike Christianity. Kyla: has values/oughts even without formal obligations.
02:00:00
Christian Marriage and Submission
Kyla's Radical Orthodoxy view. She defers to husband Nick on final decisions. Discussion of Christian headship.
03:02:18
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism has no standard, no obligations. Kyla: Jim Bob equivocates on obligations vs values.
Transcript
Page 2 of 4
00:58:11
Jim Bobtime a w a collection of women overthrew a collection of men ever. That that is not Hold on. You're you're you're making a false dichotomy. You're making a false dichotomy. If you're going to engage in fall, you're going to say make a claim and then I'm going to ask you to
00:58:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)justify. It's not a You're making a false dichotomy. Tell me one time collection of women overthrew a collection of men. False dichotomy. I can't engage. What do you mean a false dichotomy? You're b making it sound like I am saying that women are overthrowing men and that it's this zero sum game
00:58:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)between the sexes. When in reality, when it comes to civil war, especially with guns as the great equalizer, civil war means a participation typically of men and women. It's oftentimes women in support roles like a but they can also participate in the front lines. Do you
00:58:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)need them as support roles or can you have men as support roles? It's usually going to be better to have women in support. Yes, you do. This is why women are always used as nurses because men are better at the front line and so it's better to have the support roles filled
00:59:00
Jim Bobby women. Cool. So can a cool can a bunch of nurses overthrow the government? Uh yeah, if they all collectivized. Sure. Theoretically, of course they could. Of course, a bunch of nurses can a bunch of nurses can
00:59:12
Jim Bobcollectivize and take over a bunch of military expert men. You heard it here. That's how delusional feminism is. Again, false dichotomy. This is not what it is. Can a collection of women Can a collection of people overthrow the
00:59:24
Jim Bobgovernment? Yes. Yes. Can a collection of pure women who are nurses overthrow a collection of men? Again, are we doing a zero sum game where you're saying, can you answer the question? It's it's it's
00:59:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)it's can 100 women who are nurses overthrow 100 men who are not nurses. You're this is like a 100 men versus gorilla at this point. No. In in a bear in a bear fist fight to fist fight,
00:59:47
Kyla (NotSoErudite)women are weaker than men. This is [ __ ] Jim Bob. This isn't how the world works when it comes. Every major historical event is always a combination of effort from
00:59:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)everyone. It's not equal. It I'm sorry. The reality is that everyone is participating when it comes to civil war. Oh, really? Is that why men are drafted? Yes. No. Because of the man. Are women drafted? What the [ __ ] are you
01:00:10
SPEAKER_05talking about? Nobody is drafted anymore. The draft still exists. Not really. Yes, it does. Not really. The draft still exists. It's not war. We basically overthrew the draft. No, you can absolutely just elect out of the draft at any time. No, you have to sign
01:00:24
Jim Bobup. You still have to sign up, first of all, and women don't. So the fact of the matter is there's never a time in human history that you can point to where solely a collection of women took over a
01:00:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)collection of men. Whereas hold of course I'm advocating Jim Bob. I'm not holding on when all you're doing is making a straw man. Is there a time in history where a group of men collectively took over a group of men?
01:00:47
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Yeah. Cool. What's the What's the symmetry breaker between the two? This is This is an on point. What is the symmetry breaker? You're acting like gender is this zero sum game and it's just not. This isn't how history has
01:00:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)worked ever. Yes, it is. All of history is based on force. All of it. All of it. If you do you think that when the military men go off that women just have no role in any of their moral? Nobody
01:01:08
Jim Bobthings nobody said for 500. Alex. Wow. That's amazing. Okay. No, I didn't say that. I'm asking you. This is why I asked you if men collectively being that men can collectively take over other men
01:01:21
Jim Bobbecause it's happened in the past and it'll happen in the future. When we vote, we forfeit, we're basically agreeing we're not going to collectivize and take up our AR-15s and take the government or try to even, right? Cause
01:01:33
Jim Boba ruckus. If that's a trade-off when that men have, I'm asking you, what are women forfeiting? You say the same thing. No, it's not the same thing because women can't collectively do the
01:01:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)same thing. So what is your leverage? The issue is again you're making this a zero- sum game where you're acting like men and women are these separate classes that are working independent. They are
01:01:55
Jim Bobunless you're a feminist like me, they can't men and women are separate classes like demonstrated right now. They're separate classes. Do you would you agree that this city we're in is largely
01:02:06
Jim Bobdependent on the on men doing all of the service uh needs and all the brute uh strength work uh sewage plumbing fixing roads that what makes this society
01:02:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)actually function. Would you would you largely agree that it's mostly men? No. No. Okay, cool. When if you want to say well hold on Jim Bob if you when you said do you think it's men that make
01:02:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)society function and I would say of course not of course this is why this gender zero sum game is so toxic the reality yes is that another concept that has no basis in reality the same [ __ ] that feminists who are being gender opportunists are doing which is where
01:02:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they're trying to act like if men reality is toxic are doing good one if men are doing something and women are doing something it must be a zero sum game and they're just taking from each other when the reality of all of
01:02:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)history. This is what you were saying. The reality of all of history is it is a collection of people working together, fulfilling different roles to make society. Feminist Oliver that I debated kept saying, "No, you have to let No, I
01:03:05
Jim Bobwon't. I don't need to let you finish." Oliver said the same thing. When I distinguish the class between men and women, their ontology, their nature, and how they are different, historically different, what they do in society is different. The roles they play in society are different. The roles they
01:03:18
Jim Bobplay in war are different. When I point this out, Oliver and Kyla, is that your name? Kyla. Do you want me to respond at this point? I don't even know. They said they they make it ambiguous. What do
01:03:29
Jim Bobthey say? People, society. No, that's not actually how it works. The leverage that men have right now, right? They could just take over towns if they wanted to. Women can't.
01:03:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)The leverage that men have right now, it's not you. If they didn't if they didn't show up to fix it's not Brian I said men this is what I'm calling stolen valor right this idea that young
01:03:55
Kyla (NotSoErudite)able-bodied men with a penchant for violence can do a thing like violently overtake a city can I join in you could but you're not going to all rights all of the values that you care about you're not going to be necessarily joining the
01:04:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)civil war disabled men are suddenly just not pilot. This is not a counter. This is why Yes, it is. When you're treating men as a class, how would you feel if you ate breakfast this morning? All your
01:04:21
Jim Bobwhat? How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning? Oh, god. Uh, I'd be hungry. Okay, cool. So, you're capable. So, the the the
01:04:31
Kyla (NotSoErudite)counterargument that Brian or myself won't or probably won't, that's just you're just making [ __ ] up. You're not I'm not You're not a police officer. You're not in the military. Brian is not in the military. Brian's not a police officer. talking about that. Yes, you
01:04:43
Kyla (NotSoErudite)are. Because you're talking about violent pension men willing to do it. And that's not you. Are you listening? That's not you. And you don't get to steal. I'm not listening. I moved it off
01:04:52
Jim Bobof the violence and I moved it into the working sector. Okay. Um, hold on. Underwater welding, tunnel building, uh,
01:05:02
Jim Bobroad laying, uh, erecting massive buildings with air conditioning so Kyla can go, you know, go go number two in a nice, uh, environment. this kind of stuff. I the leverage for men is still
01:05:15
Jim Bobactually right there present. If they stopped working, do you think a collection of women could take up all of those hard labor jobs and maintain society? No. I've never advocated for that. So they So they have leverage. Can I respond at any leverage that women
01:05:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)don't have? Well, women have tons of leverage because they're the ones having your children. They're the They're not They're killing off their children because of feminism. They are having your children. You obviously need women to have children. Not feminists. You obviously Jim, do you need I need non feminist. You got to you got to engage
01:05:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)with me here. Do you need women to have children? Yes. Okay, great. So, women are the ones raising your children. They're having your children. They're taking care of all of like the nursing. They're taking care of the elderly. They're doing the dominant amount of
01:05:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Christian feeding feeding the poor for free. They're doing the dominant work. Are they feminists? Uh, some of them. No, the ones having most of the children are feminist. Get out of here. What? That's what is the debate about feminism
01:06:04
Jim Bobpoint Jim Bob is the debate about feminism. You're now Now watch. She conceded before that the best thing for the family is a traditional looking family, right? That's more reflective of a Christian view, Christian practice,
01:06:16
Jim Bobnot a feminist one, that's anti-feminist. When I asked her, uh, should feminism push against that traditional family value, she moved over to another topic. Now, when I ask her about the roles in upkeeping society, right, whether or not they're equal
01:06:29
Jim Bobbetween men and women, she conceds that they're not, right? But then she points to duties, right? I agree. Duties. Hold on. Duties of Yes. Oh, so it's not Okay, cool. ing the sewer is not a duty. It's not a duty. Okay. No, it's not a duty,
01:06:41
Jim Bobbut it is a job that some people unfortunately elect in having a being a mom is not a duty. It's a good thing to do. How do you advocate for rights, whether it's men or women, and not advocate for the duty to defend those
01:06:53
Jim Bobrights? You don't I've never disentangled these two things. What the what I want listen I want human rights. I want women women's rights. But there's
01:07:05
SPEAKER_05we have a duty let me respond to that. Do we have a duty to give people rights? You got to let me respond. Do we have a duty to give women rights? Um you from your view you personally don't. No. Does
01:07:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)anyone have a duty to grant you rights? Uh what do you mean by that? Rights are a set of behaviors that are permitted. No. Yes they are. Rights are not behaviors that are permitted. They're behavior. No. They're prerequisite
01:07:29
Jim Bobbehavior that we think that everyone should have access to. Rights are they're permitted. Can you use force to not permit a behavior? Uh, yes. Give me one right
01:07:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that the government couldn't actually uh prohibit. Uh, faith. Faith. You have a right to believe in something in your head. You have a right. Yeah. You have a right freedom of of religion. The government, no matter what, can't take
01:07:51
Jim Bobyour ability to believe in God. To think. Yeah. To think. Great. That's one thing that you call a right. I would say that's more of a duty or an internal working. What does duty mean to you then? Like an obligation. Well, this is the thing. You're you're unironically
01:08:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)equivocating because duty started as like specific things that you must do. Is believe in God a woman's right? It's religion. It has nothing to do is look look I'm you're coming to the table
01:08:15
Jim Bobspecifically with feminism. So you're pointing to rights specific to females that maybe men have and and women don't. So when I'm asking you the question should women let's say voting is that
01:08:25
Jim Bobright? Is voting a right? Uh yes. Okay. Can men take away your vote to your vote? Uh, yes. Okay. So, they can take away your right, but again, it's not men. It's the enforcement arm. Can the enforcement arm Well, this is an
01:08:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)important distinction. Unbelievable. No, this is this is a fundamental distinction because every single time you say, can the enforcement arm be made up of rabbits? Every single time, can the enforcement arm be made up of rabbits? Do you think so, say for
01:08:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)example, you've got a society and the entire enforcement arm is made up of a slave cast? Maybe it's it's a society where it's all black people. Does that mean black people run the society?
01:09:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Why Why can only black people be slaves? This is a weird world in Narnia where only black people weird. It's not weird. It's not weird, Jim Bob, to reference black people being slaves. That's like one of the most standard historical
01:09:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)things. That doesn't mean it's good. Nice try, though. Well, if they serve as the enforcement arm, it might be good. Okay. So if if say we have a world and white people have all of the control, they're in the governance, but the
01:09:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)entire enforcement arm is a slave cast of black people. Would you say then that black people run society in that society? Uh I would say black people have a chance and they actually demonstrate that's not what I asked you. Do black people run the society? Uh not
01:09:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)currently, but they could actually fight it. So in this world, do black people run society? Uh no, but they could fight and actually run it. But couldn't the white people just fight? And yeah, that's white and black. We're talking about men and women. Duh. Okay. So you
01:09:48
Jim Bobrealize talking about men versus men, you prove my point. If you swap out the blacks and they're and they're women slaves, guess what? Can the women actually change the nature of the world? No. But the group of black men couldn't.
01:10:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Yeah, they Oh, you're going to fight a bunch of men. No, they get to sexually select who they're going to be with. They get to progress. That's not true. Women don't get to No, not in a slave situation. What are you talking about? We're not talking about a slave
01:10:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)situation. You just brought up a slave situation and then you moved on beyond that to go back to the Yes. because we were talking about blacks and whites and then you moved on to men at a broader category. I kept the slave situation.
01:10:23
Jim BobReplace the black slaves with women, right? In your example, you said, "Who's who's running the show?" Well, the one who has the most force, that's who's running the show. Hold on a second.
01:10:36
Jim BobBlack people. Hold on a second. In a scenario where there's an oppressor, a strong arm, and a a group of men who are the weak arm, the winner is the one with the most force. Correct. Mhm. So the
01:10:48
Kyla (NotSoErudite)black people, right, in this in this scenario or the best tactics can take over with Well, actually, that's a really good point, right? When you look at, for example, wars, it's not always just the one that has the best force that wins. Israel and the uh six- day
01:11:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)war is a really good example of a country that was positioned against all of the Arab nations. They technically had less force, but they had superior mind and so they won. Right? Right. So this idea that it's just blunt force
01:11:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that wins out in these things is the most that is what you are saying. You just said Jim Bob pause. You just said between these two arms whichever one has
01:11:22
Jim Bobmore force wins. The answer is entirely true. It's actually who's most Can I fix this for you? If there's two groups of
01:11:30
Jim Bobof uh two military groups and they're both equally smart. If the one who's smart, just as smart as the other, has superior force, who's going to likely win? Yeah, sure. In the case where like
01:11:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)tactics are identical, so force is the actual decider. No, because in You just agreed. You just agreed. Give me an actual real life example where force is perfectly equated. What do you mean perfectly equated? You're you're saying
01:11:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)if if tactics was perfectly equated, then force wins. Give me a situation. Power is never perfectly equated in boxing. You just said, "Give me a
01:12:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)potential example where it's equated and then the the the more powerful one wins over the tactics." No, typically in boxing, it's often times like like most of the greatest boxers a lot of times are people who are incredibly talented and tactical, right? Like Mike Tyson
01:12:18
Kyla (NotSoErudite)wasn't just good cuz he punched really hard. He was also really good because he had the weave, he had good footwork, and he also could win it without the power. Uh yeah, I think like Floyd Mayweather is a good example of somebody who doesn't have a super strong punch.
01:12:30
Kyla (NotSoErudite)He'sing Hold on. You didn't let me finish. Floyd Mayweather is a great example of somebody who doesn't have a high level of force. They're not the strongest guy out there, but they have incredible footwork and they're insanely fast and so he still wins all of his
01:12:41
Brian Atlasfights. One thing really quick here, guys, we got to take a brief break for for little chats to come through. If you want your chat to be read, we're doing Streamlabs
01:12:51
Brian Atlasstreamlabs.com/wever. We're going to do $99 and up for those. We have uh Intel Wild here. Thank you, Intel. Appreciate it. Intel wild donating your friend. W
01:13:02
SPEAKER_00Jim Bob dos in the chat and not so bright. Stop showing us your armpits. Gross. Okay. This guy. Do you know the armpit meme about me? No. No. So, I have a neck injury. So, when I was streaming,
01:13:15
Kyla (NotSoErudite)I would often go like this cuz it relieves like pressure in my neck, which means Intel Wild probably watches me because it's like a niche. It's a niche meme about me. Wow. There you go. He's There you go. We we discovered it and
01:13:27
Brian Atlasyou made like 300 bucks from him tonight. So something like that. He's a he's a Kyla enjoyer. Okay. We have Chef Dill Pickles. Thank you, man. Chef Dill Pickles donated
01:13:38
SPEAKER_00$100. Erodite, you said that women should have barriers removed to allow them to choose what they want. Tell me, do you think we should have listened when the majority of women said they
01:13:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)didn't want suffrage? You want to respond to that one? Uh yeah, probably then. We shouldn't have been like forcing women to have the vote. They should have won it through like persuasion. I I think the suffragettes were kind of shitty. I just think that that we inevitably we would
01:14:02
Brian Atlashave resulted in a situation where women have the vote. All right. And then we have Giovani. He's back also. Giovani, thank you, man. Appreciate it. Giovani Jade, you donated
01:14:13
SPEAKER_00$100. Can Christianity knock over a cup? No. Then Christianity can't build a society. Two gay sophists in a row. That's woman sucks and you dodge the
01:14:24
Jim Bobsubstance of the convo this hard. Gay and cringe. Wow. Okay. Giovani is a hater. He's he's an equal opportunity. Yeah, that's that that's actually false. Christianity actually has applied
01:14:35
Jim Bobduties. The the the worldview of Christianity, dumbass is actually expressed in matter. In fact, without the matter uh binding it to the philosophy and the worldview and the
01:14:46
Jim Bobpractice, it doesn't exist. But that's why I'm pointing Giovani, you [ __ ] is that feminism doesn't actually have a practice. That's correct. And Christianity does. Correct. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't have
01:14:58
SPEAKER_05practice. It doesn't have anything. Of course it does. It led to women having the vote. You You mean You mean patriarchy. Platonic floor. Your pract Your practice is patriarchy. Shadows on
01:15:09
Brian Atlasa wall. Your practice is literally patriarchy. Okay. Feminist practice is patriarchy. The shadows on the wall. I won't look at them. They're not real. Oh, okay. It's a platonic joke. Okay. Oh, got it. Okay.
01:15:22
Brian AtlasWe got Brian S here. Thank you for the big $200 soup chat. Women were always able to vote in banking. How else did widows maintain their inheritance? As to voting, they were subject to the same
01:15:33
Brian Atlaslimitations as men. The metric wasn't your sex, but whether one owned property or not. Men or women who didn't own property weren't allowed to vote. And
01:15:43
Brian Atlaswho could buy property? Not women. word. Uh, thank you, Brian S, for your big $200 super chat. You're a legend, guys. W's in the chat for Brian S. That was a very generous super chat from him.
01:15:55
Brian AtlasUh, reminder, guys, if you want to get a message in, you can do, we recommend doing so through Streamlabs, streamlabs.com/ whatever. YouTube takes a 30% cut. And then if you're using Apple, an Apple device, and using a
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Brian AtlasYouTube app, Apple takes 30, YouTube takes 30. So if if you had sent that as a uh I iOS YouTube app super chat, YouTube
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01:16:44
Brian AtlasLet me see. Oh, chef. Chef, it's below the threshold, but I'll read it super quick. He writes, "Why not?" It's below the threshold, but why not? He says, "Continued a freebie." Uh, I You know what? If we drop it to 69, I'll pull it
01:16:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)back up then. How about that? Um, we'll pull it back up then. Um, okay. I think you guys were talking about Do I get to respond to that one? Uh, if you want to, sure, why not? I just got to say if your best insult on me is using my own
01:17:08
Kyla (NotSoErudite)self-created meme of not so aridite, do better. Okay, there's better low hanging fruit you could reach. Wait, why did you choose that name? Because it's funny. Oh, yeah. Also, for the I I
01:17:20
Brian Atlasforgot if we announced this at the beginning of the stream. If we hit our super chat goal, we need 50 yellow super chats. We're at 16 of 50. Uh Kyla will
01:17:29
Brian Atlaswear a MAGA hat. True. So that's that that's cool. If we we have an hour and a half left on that. Do an AI gal with it. If Brian will give
01:17:40
Brian Atlasme 50 bucks of it. You want Jim Bob to do that? No. No. I'll do it. Oh, you It's uh It's that face. That girl right there. Oh. Oh, that. Yeah. Mhm. That thing. But you have to give me 50 of it.
01:17:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)50 bucks. That's a Wait, what? Sorry. I'll do the Aigawa if you give me 50 bucks from the pool. Wait, for the goal? Yeah. To do the goal? Yeah. I don't know if the viewers want to see that. Yes, they do. Intel
01:18:05
Brian AtlasWild for sure wants to see that. Maybe Intel Intel might. Anyways, um back to the uh discussion at hand. Do you guys want to just pick up where you left off? You guys were talking about I was I
01:18:14
Jim Bobwanted Dixon Floyd. I wanted to go back to Wait, hold on. Favorite boxer. Actually, if you don't like boxing, favorite MMA fighter. Well, I Mike Tyson's my favorite boxer. Um MMA I'm
01:18:27
Jim Bobnot I don't follow anymore. I used to. Do you guys want to arm wrestle right now? I would lose. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm not like the type of woman who's like testosterone is not real. I realize it's
01:18:37
Jim Bobreal. All right. Sorry. Go ahead. Um, I wanted to point to this. I think it's an issue with with your worldview. Is that I know that your worldview isn't solely
01:18:46
Jim Bobfeminist, right? But if you're arguing for a feminist view, do you agree that you would need to borrow from another view to apply feminism at least like uh from an ethical position? I know Jay
01:18:59
Jim Bobpressed you on your ethics and your epistemology. I I'm not going to go into that, but the reason I'm asking is if you held a view that says feminism is good and this is how I'm measuring it
01:19:10
Jim Boband you think uh women should have rights, let's say, I'm not sure how you could make the argument that we ought to give women rights if you don't
01:19:20
Jim Bobsimultaneously argue that men ought to give them to you. Uh because again, it's it's conflating men with the enforcement arm. Well, if men collectively, whatever you want to call the enforcement arm,
01:19:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)right? The enforcement arm. Yeah. So, it's just what is an abstract collection of men mostly predominantly men, but there are women in it too. And the mo the most important thing is that the enforcement arm is given legitimacy from the ruling class. I understand. Okay.
01:19:46
Jim BobSo, which can be men and women. So, do you agree that there's an enforcement arm? Let's say the enforcement arm in this scenario is 96% men and 4% women. I would I just wouldn't The issue is that
01:19:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the enforcement arm doesn't get to do wanton violence because it's a bunch of men that can do violence. No, then they would be a rebel group and they would be They could be a rebel group. Yeah, but that's not what either of us are. That's called a
01:20:09
Jim Bobrebellion. Yeah, but nobody neither of us are talking about rebel groups right now. We're talking about one because what legitimizes are because if if that enforcement arm that's mostly men decided you don't get the vote, what
01:20:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)leverage do you have? Please. Pretty please. That's it. That the enforcement arm doesn't ever get to decide that in our societ it doesn't who gets is the is the government. If they don't if they if
01:20:33
Jim Bobthe government decides X and the enforcement arm says we're not enforcing that. Is there any decision on X? So do you think that Trump is answer? I'm answering your question with a question. It's not stupid. Have you never engaged
01:20:45
Kyla (NotSoErudite)with Socratic method? No, that's not how it works. It is. The Socratic method is asking each other questions in exchange question. Unless you want to just be like, why do I have to answer your question? If you don't answer mine, I've
01:20:55
Jim Bobanswered all of your questions. If someone passes a law, the ruling class passes a law over here. Trump, if they pass a law and the enforcement arm
01:21:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)doesn't enforce it, is there any power in in this? Uh, no. No, but the enforcement arm. It's not the enforcement arm. Unless you're going to tell me that police officers have more power in this country than Trump, which
01:21:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)would be crazy. It's not just police officers. Okay. Of course, it's not just police officers. Then why would you say police officers? Okay. Sorry, I should have also added soldiers, military, Navy Seals, everything else. I'm obviously meaning the entire enforcement arm,
01:21:29
Jim Bobwhich is decide to not go to work. Does Does the policy or law have any power? Do you think the enforcement arm is weaker than Trump? What do you mean Trump as an individual? Yeah, our president. Yeah, the enforcement arm could take over Trump if if they wanted
01:21:42
Jim Bobto. Interesting. So, the enforcement arm is actually the one in control of our our country, not Trump. When it comes down to it, if the enforcement arm decides we're not doing this right, we're changing our minds. we're dropped. You know, like for instance, the same
01:21:54
Jim Bobprinciple holds when someone does a like like they uh a boycott or they they don't come to work, right? A protest. Mhm. That has power, right? Leverage. It's like a soft power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if the if the if the job
01:22:07
Jim Bobthey're doing is actually enforcement, for instance, if police stop showing up, police have the power to stop showing up. Hold on, dude. Do police have the power and the will to stop showing up to
01:22:18
Jim Bobto uh crime scenes? Yeah, but then all of their livelihood would be taken away. I understand. But if they risk that for something good, right, if they thought, well, that's a risk. But if it was an
01:22:30
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ethical view, right, they could actually do that. And that's leverage, right? Uh the the issue is that in reality the reason why Trump is more powerful because I'm sure you actually agree with this than the enforcement arm is because
01:22:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)he has for example the ability that if the enforcement arm decided to rebel against him, he could immediately cut off all funding to any enforcement arm and immediately strip them of the ability to have arms, he could lock up facilities that they wouldn't otherwise
01:22:54
Jim Bobhave. Wait, hold on. Hold on. Listen to what you're saying. Lock up facilities and take their arms, right? With what? Wait. Dot dot dot. Drum roll. With what? What do you think banking is? Do you think banking is the enforcement arm? You want to focus on the one that works
01:23:07
Kyla (NotSoErudite)for you, but you don't want to engage with the debating. Do you think banking arm? It's not dodging. Look, you just ran into he would have to lock it up with his private secretary instead.
01:23:17
Jim BobAll force. Okay. So, if you said uh a bunch of people rebelled against Trump, the the enforcement arm, he can do XYZ and everything you listed would assume that he also has this other set of
01:23:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)people that are forced. banking would not insist that he could he could cut off all of their money immediately. Yeah, you can cut off ground all their flame. Yeah, you can you can physically
01:23:38
Jim Bobuh uh thwart uh you know the internet and banking and electronics and all that stuff ability to do that. Yeah, but the thing is that's not force, right? Yeah.
01:23:48
Jim BobBut look, I the do you think my argument is that you can't do different kinds of warfare? No. What I'm saying is that even if he did that, what's going to ultimately decide
01:23:59
Kyla (NotSoErudite)things in over time is going to be a body of over time especially is going to be money. I'm sorry. Money. Oh, really? So where money is meaningless? What? What? Where have you ever been to have
01:24:11
Jim Bobyou ever seen a situation where money is literally on the ground everywhere? That's called inflation. That's not related to the situation. So when when so money you think money is the determining factor? I think money is
01:24:23
Jim Bobprobably one of the most important like systems of leveraging power on the planet. Yes, I understand. But if it comes down to money or or pure military force, let's say a country is really
01:24:34
Jim Bobrich but they don't have a military and there's another country that's that hold on. I'm not presenting these things as mutually exclusive, right? Well, I'm pointing to the deciding factor that you keep trying to avoid. Every scenario you
01:24:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)give ultimately the deciding factor is muscle. I'm not really understanding. So like I've already granted you that muscle is really important. The enforcement arm is very important. The issue is that I'm trying to say it's a more complicated story than you want people to believe because it doesn't
01:24:59
Kyla (NotSoErudite)work to your narrative which is that for example banking is obviously one of the most powerful things in the world. Is it more powerful than force in an acute sense? No, of course not. But I'm well in a long term for example which a war
01:25:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)is long term. You can't feed people. You can't do any logistics. You can't do any coordinating. Do you need an enforcement arm in the threat of force to have a bank? Yeah, but these things are Hold on. Like Jim Bob, none of these are
01:25:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)winning to your thing. You're trying to act like force is like the number one. It's the most important thing. It is the deciding factor. No, it's not. When what's another deciding factor if it's
01:25:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)not force? Tactics. What? Tactics of what? Of of warfare. Warfare is force. Yeah, but it's it's not just force. Force is violence, right? Force is like
01:25:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)going pew pew. Look, look, look. You can't say force is now just all of these other things so that you can like make your argument work. If two bodies of
01:25:52
Jim Bobforce have equal tactical skills and knowledge and one has superior force, who's going to win between the ones who are equal in tactical knowledge? I already answered that. Can I add on to that? Well, no. What's the answer for
01:26:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the whole audience? I already said the one with superior force. Here's the next question. Say one they're equal in those ways. One has to higher force, but the other one has four times the amount of money. Which one wins now? The force.
01:26:16
Jim BobNot necessarily. What do you mean? How How does money beat a gun? Because you can hire other additional Isn't it weird, ladies and gentlemen, when I get robbed on the street, I can't throw my money at the person to defend. I'm not saying I'm not saying that money is
01:26:30
Kyla (NotSoErudite)force. I'm saying that when you're pretending like this idea of force in the enforcement arm is so simple. It's just like muscle makes right. Like unironic. I didn't say right. I said it makes you saying No, you're doing master morality. Don't lie. You're doing master
01:26:42
Jim Bobmorality. Yes, you are. No, I'm not. Stop lying. What is master morality? I don't know. But it's not might is right. So you're saying that you're not doing a might is right. I never heard the term, but if you're saying might is right, that's not a gotcha. I'm saying might
01:26:55
Jim Bobis. This is why it's an important question. If you agree with me that might is, it's not right. It just is. It could be the case. It's right. It could be wrong. Right? If that's a case that
01:27:06
Jim Bobwe both agree that might just is that's descriptive doesn't exist. It's no it no it's descriptively the case that force wins that's that doesn't say it's right it wins.
01:27:17
Jim BobYes. Uh yeah in like a one to one again stop. No the world is notable. I know it I know it would be Hold on. Every time I get one premise out you you you basically take us to Wall-E world like
01:27:29
Jim Boblook just follow follow. I have been following the issue Jim B. That means stop. That means be quiet for a second. I don't have to I don't have I don't have to. If we agree that force
01:27:40
Jim Bobwins, no one said it's right. If we agree that force wins, isn't the next logical question is what philosophy or
01:27:48
Jim Bobworldview informs the use of force? If pure force wins is descriptively true, concentrate. It's not. That's what I'm telling you. Oh, it's not now. No,
01:28:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)because you're now moving to a philosophical system of how you set up, for example, maybe nation states. We can maybe use force in the state of nation states. The moment that you go to that, this idea that just force wins is devoid
01:28:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)of any of the complications of reality, right? The reality is that if you have a super strong force, but you don't have logistics, you don't have means to feed them, you don't have caretakers for them to take care of the wounded, you don't
01:28:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)have a GDP to be able to fund them and make them strong and uh have like more disagreeing with that. you you are fundamentally eroding these things so that you can just say force really matters. But I've never said that force
01:28:35
Jim Bobdoesn't matter. I'm saying you're painting a really simple other things when this is complicated. I never said those. You want to make it complicated so you don't have to deal with the entailments. But no, I want to make it complicated cuz I would love for a discussion to slightly map on to
01:28:47
Jim Bobreality. Just slightly. All right. Cool. So if you have two groups of uh uh two different armies, right, fighting out there in the field, do you think it's uh better for one or the other to um to be
01:29:00
Jim Bobable to deal with the harshness of the elements in long periods of time? Uh is it better to be able to to be in like the heat for a long period of time, to be carrying a lot of weight for a long period of time? Yeah, of course. This is why men are better at the front
01:29:12
Jim Bobline. Gotcha. Okay. So if that's the case, it still comes down to brute force collectively. Even in the incense where you have to Yes, it does. You have to carry food, right? So, for example, if brute force was sufficient, Germany
01:29:25
Kyla (NotSoErudite)would have a much better time taking over Russia because they were [ __ ] dumpstering. They had way more force on their hand. The problem is that they had a failed logistics system and that they couldn't they had no way of managing the winter, particularly because their their
01:29:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)uh tanks got stuck in the mud. This is why logistics and things like nurses, all of these things matter. They try to reduce the world to force. All you're doing is just pretending. No.
01:29:48
Jim BobEven in that instance, did they lose to concepts or did they also lo did they lose to another body of force? What did they lose to another body of force? They mostly lost to technology failures and
01:30:01
Jim Bobwinter. Is that does that uh technological failures does that require uh no men? No. Okay. To avoid developing a tank does not require men. Oh, really?
01:30:12
SPEAKER_05It requires science. Listen guys, developing a tank doesn't require men. It requires science. Science is a method. What's the scientific method? The scientific method is the process by
01:30:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)which you use No. What's the method? What steps? Yeah, I'm going to walk you through. What's the first step? Do Okay, I can walk you through it. What's the step? The first step is going to be hypothesis. No, that's an observation. Wrong. No. Yes, it is. How do you do a
01:30:37
Jim Bobhypothesis on something you don't observe, dummy? Uh, okay. You're talking about basic science. Yeah. You can't even tell me what the scientific method is. Science built tanks. No. Engineering
01:30:47
Kyla (NotSoErudite)built tanks and men had engineering tanks made of uh various things. There's like steel bodies. Are they again? Have you ever seen Do you think
01:30:59
SPEAKER_05you could do you think you could hammer in one of the the bolts of the Let's just go back. Let's just This is hilarious. Let's just breathe and go back. You guys engineers men don't build tanks. Science does. Do what are you
01:31:10
SPEAKER_05Neil Degr Tyson? What's wrong with you? Do you think that we would have tanks without science? Nobody said that. Men build tanks and use heard a guy's science builds tanks because you were
01:31:23
SPEAKER_05saying concepts don't. Of course men build tanks. Women don't build tanks. Women just can build tanks. Oh, can they? Yes. Really? Yes. We have the science and technology for it. Oh, you have the brute force to carry all of those heavy pieces of equipment.
01:31:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Typically, you're going to have like a carrying equipment. Yeah. You can use like forklifts and all the other [ __ ] that they use. Do you think that like men by themselves are just like brute carrying still? Yes, they are. No, they're using factories and robotics.
01:31:48
Jim BobWhat are you talking about? They're not pure. By the way, who manages and builds robotics? Men and women. No, mostly men. Engineering, metal smithing, machining, all of these things, large scale. It's
01:32:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)disproportionately like occupied by men. But this is this is more of the feminist argument at this point. It's not. It is because like by and large uh women were barred from education and that like these disciplines didn't reinforce. Look look your own army. Let's say you have
01:32:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)your own army right and I just can't believe you said that science doesn't build tanks. That's the most wise engineering builds tanks. Science engineering is science my friend. Science is science is natural dude. No it's yes it is. It's study of the
01:32:25
SPEAKER_05natural world. Tanks aren't natural dummy. Do you I'm sorry. Do you think that science didn't contribute to the development of tanks? No I didn't say that. I said science itself the natural
01:32:35
Jim Bobwell science it dummy sc can you engineer without science no yes you can no yes you can not very well I didn't say well if you can engineer without science then it it demonstrates that you
01:32:47
Jim Bobcan do engineering without science the argument isn't the argument isn't whether or not science contributes the question isn't I never said science doesn't contribute to
01:32:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)engineering I'm saying science itself as a methodology which you don't even [ __ ] know The method doesn't you haven't even let me speak. You didn't even start with an observation because a lot of science doesn't start with observation. For example, basic science
01:33:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)just hypothesizes free willy and then it tests it like what uh basic science for example would be one person was like just pretty sure that our gut biome uh the ulcers that they did that without obser knowing and observing what a gut
01:33:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)biome is. They just imagine a gut biome without observing and knowing what it is. No, the main actually thing is that they hadn't been able to observe the bacteria in there and but they proposed any ways that it was a bacteria. In fact, it was viewed as a very very conscious. So they knew what bacteria
01:33:36
Jim Bobwas, bro. Did they know what bacteria was? Yes. Cool. So they observed bacteria before. So they they started with an observation to know what bacteria is. They know what a gut is. That's an
01:33:47
Jim Bobobservation. You can't posit hypothesis without You can't do it without an observation. I'm sorry you out of the depth. Do you know what the difference? No, I'm not. You don't even know the scientific. Do you know what the difference is between basic and applied
01:33:58
Jim Bobscience? Yes. What's the difference? Well, applied science is basically that's what engineering is. It's taking the conclusions, the regularity, the inductive reasoning from the scientific method and applying it into making [ __ ]
01:34:10
Jim BobWhat's basic science? Basic science is natural science. What is that? You observe natural phenomena in the world. You have a hypothesis of what's causing the natural phenomenon. You introduce an independent variable. You remove it.
01:34:22
SPEAKER_05You'd repeat repeat repeat and then you come up with a hypo a conclusion which is what produces a scientific theory. Okay. So you don't understand this. So basic basic tell me one thing I said was wrong dummy. I will just breathe. Don't do this [ __ ] passive aggressive [ __ ]
01:34:35
Jim Bobwhere you don't understand this. Tell me what I got wrong me all the time. Tell me what I got wrong. Do I will but you stop gaslighting me. You have to stop. You're a professional gaslighter. Brian I Brian. Daddy help me. Patriarchy help
01:34:47
Brian Atlasme. I win. I do. Do you want me to get your question? I will answer if you breathe if we can. Let's try to avoid the uh ad homs and the insults. Okay, go
01:34:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ahead. So basic science is typically where a hypothesis can be generated with without observation. It's something that essentially a scientist theorizes and then they create a hypothesis to test it and then they test it. Applied science
01:35:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)is using observations from nature or from the world around you and building off of these observations to create a more like targeted hypothesis of what we expect it to become and then testing that out. Most science that you're
01:35:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)familiar with is part of this applied science branch because basic science is like more like what 1800's philosophers got to do where they just like whimsically were like I wonder if I lick metal if it'll cure cancer and then they
01:35:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)tried it. Right? That's what basic science was where you just like try like hocus pocus [ __ ] to see if it works. Whereas applied science is going like well whenever I drop this ball I notice if it hits this and so I'm going to test and see if I drop different things of different weight if it changes the
01:35:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)velocity of dropping. And which one of those built a tank? Uh I have no idea the history of science, but I'm assuming I which part uh gunpowder I suspect
01:35:59
Kyla (NotSoErudite)probably wasn't science at all. The Chinese did it. I have a feeling that they kind of noticed these things like igniting one another. Maybe it was applied science, but for example, a lot of medical advancements come from basic science. Yeah. Do you think you could
01:36:11
Jim Bobload a cannonball into a Me personally? Yeah. I don't know how to work tanks. No, I mean just a cannonball into a cannon. Oh, uh, yeah, probably. You could load one in. Yeah, I
01:36:22
Jim Bobthink they're about like 5 lbs. Can you pull back uh the rail of a clock? Uh, like the inside gear mechanis [ __ ] a gun. Can you do that? Yeah. Okay. Can
01:36:33
Jim Bobyou break down a gun? Uh, no. clean it. Okay. I don't That's not a dunk. I've I've never Well, no, it it kind of is a dunk because a part of managing weaponry, even not just a tank, but even
01:36:45
Jim Bobsmall weapons, you have to be able to clean it effectively and you have to have to be able to you have to be able to use brute strength and be able to hold it firm. And so I've never that having some like I've never denied that
01:36:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)frontline soldiers are better served typically by men or by women who can achieve the same like physical standards that erected for men. What I've what I've actually done is said that science is the concept by which tanks emerged
01:37:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)and then labor was used to build these things. But to act like it's men is again it's just this reductive narrative of diminishing like how again you just get to steal valor because like men were in these roles. that there's a really complicated question of like why were
01:37:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)men in these roles and maybe not women and also there's a why is every answer to your philosophy it's complicated because the world is incredibly [ __ ] complicated so do you understand it or it's complicated but you understand it I understand elements of it but it seems
01:37:36
Jim Boblike I understand maybe more than you well no it sounds like what you're saying basically every time I have you cornered you say it's very complicated which is a very common tactic with nonsense machines I don't just say it's complicated I say it's complicated and
01:37:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)then I go on to list out the like squellle and multiffactorial elements that make it complicated. Nobody in this, nobody in their right mind would look at the world, look at like taxes or debt or banking or central banking.
01:38:02
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Nobody should look at these things and be like, "Yeah, it's really [ __ ] simple." No, it's not. Well, in this central banking, very complicated tanks, very
01:38:13
Jim Bobsimplicity, the thing that's being reduced is not complicated. It seems to be only complicating for for you honestly is that the descriptive element of this debate that's true that holds true that you even agree with is that
01:38:25
Jim Bobit's primarily men who are applying force to maintain a society whether it's law or the world itself or erecting buildings and maintaining all this [ __ ] Yeah. I mean I've just agreed with that the issue is that like we then got into which we you didn't really allow me to
01:38:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)which is like who gives the legitimacy to those like young able-bodied men to enact violence in a legitimate way? A group of people who have superior force. No. Yes. No. Government. What? That's
01:38:50
Jim Bobthat's what a government is. It's superior force. Trump is just stronger than No. The body of the government which has an arm, the branch of force is the government. It's all inclusive. It's all one big thing, right? The military
01:39:03
Jim Bobis not part of the government. No, not necessarily. The government rules over the military. The military is not an arm of the government. When when when the president has is the leader of what the
01:39:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the Yeah, he's the leader of it. It's underneath him. It is it a part of his governance? Yes. But that doesn't mean that it is the government, right? The military is not the government. The military is not
01:39:25
Kyla (NotSoErudite)part of the government. I That's not what I said. I said that it isn't the government. Right. The one that confers the authority to the violent pension. Is this hand a part of my body? Yep. Is it
01:39:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)my body? Uh no. It's your hand and it's part of your body. Okay. So, so it's not my body. Well, it is your body and it's your hand, right? There's like a level of specificity that you can apply to.
01:39:46
Jim BobCool. So, so this isn't my body. It is your body. It's just also your hand. So, if this if I'm the government and this that's analogous to the government. Yeah. If I'm the government and this is
01:39:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the enforcement arm of the military, is this the government by the same logic? Uh, I'm sure. Why are you Why are you wincing? I'm I'm wincing because again it I makes me wonder if you understand your branch. What is wrong with your
01:40:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)brain? Does your Do you understand? I use your logic. What are the three branches of the government? Legislative. Uh [ __ ] Sorry. Finish it for me. Executive. Executive. Judicial. Judicial. Gotcha. Yeah. None of those
01:40:22
Jim Bobare military. If you might notice, the executive branch needs the military. Well, it's under the executive branch. Yeah. It's part of the It's What are you talking? I'm saying if you can't execute a policy,
01:40:33
Kyla (NotSoErudite)there's no executive branch. Yes. So the military is under the president, right? Yeah. The president's what? The what? The leader of the country. Yeah. The military's under him, right? He gives
01:40:46
Jim Bobthe military the authority to do the violence. He legitimizes it. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. That's cool. That's in my in favor of my argument. U you know what? That that that body can
01:40:58
Jim Bobdetermine, right? Even if you think it's unjust, it can actually determine and take control. It could literally tomorrow could take your rights to vote, right? I don't know why you're talking about the government when you don't even know the three branches. Look, I know
01:41:10
Jim Bobyou're going to hold on to that forever, but this it that's pales like like what you've said tonight. Do you know what the legislative role is? It doesn't matter. It kind of does. It doesn't matter. No, cuz the argument is feminism. This is No, this is the same thing. Well, we've obviously moved
01:41:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)pretty far away from it. This is the same thing when we debated last time and we were talking about G. What good is the legislative body that passes? You're fighting me about concepts you don't even know. I'm not talking about the function of the government. Just to be
01:41:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)clear, it's fine if you don't know these things. The problem is when you weaponize your like ignorance, all you have is gaslighting. Please let me finish. All you do is gaslight and gaslight and gaslight. That's all you do. I don't know why
01:41:48
Jim Bobyou're That's literally your career. You're like a Tumblr girl right now. What good is like cutting your being sad, too? Kyla, focus. What good is legislating policy if you can't execute
01:41:59
Jim Bobit with force? Uh, it's no good. I I'm This is not the argument. Is the legislative part of the uh is that a part of the the government? The legislature. Yes. Okay, cool. So, if the
01:42:11
Jim Boblegislative branch is a part of the government that uh informs policy and makes policy and passes policy or whatever, if it's no good without force, right? Mhm. If passing policy that gives
01:42:22
Jim Bobyou entitlements like voting or anything else you call liberty under under under feminism, if the if it's the case that the body of force could literally not enforce it at all. Yeah. Okay. You're at
01:42:34
Jim Bobthe mercy just like me of a body of predominantly men. Therefore, rights, as you argue them, this is this all branched from this very simple argument is that you
01:42:44
Jim Bobmade an argument that women should have rights. I gave you the entailment of that. If you say women ought to have
01:42:53
Jim Bobrights, which is a normative claim about what should happen, right? You're simultaneously saying, given that there's a legislative branch branch that
01:43:04
Jim Bobwrites that out and does it, you're simultaneously saying that people in the legislative branch in the enforcement arm
01:43:13
Jim Bobought to defend and uphold that policy. Right. Uh, sure. I guess here's my So now there's an obligation for men primarily and from your feminist view,
01:43:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you cannot produce an obligation. Feminism has zero obligations. Okay. Again, obligations. Men are not obligated to be police or or soldiers. Soldiers and police are obligated to be
01:43:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)police and soldiers because that's what they agree to, right? So this this obligation again, feminism, it doesn't obligate anything, but feminism isn't a doctrine of political governance, right? It doesn't have to obligate things in the way that like a government system
01:43:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)does. For example, the government obligates you as a citizen to listen to the rules of the country. Right? It's important. And I know you're going to be like, "How do you enforce those rules?" It's force. But after that, after we've
01:44:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)gotten into that, it's really important for you to understand that when you're talking about feminism, it's not a political philosophical structure. And so, when you're asking what the obligations are underneath it, it's not
01:44:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)proport you're you're basically measuring like a truck. Uh, when we're talking about rainbows, you be like, "Why doesn't this rainbow work like the truck does?" How do you make How do you put that many words out and say nothing?
01:44:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Jim Bob, I'm sorry. If you didn't understand that, that might explain why you don't know the three branches of the government. Just to be clear, I was pretty simple in what I just said there. Okay, cool. So, the question is, you don't understand what I said. Just to
01:44:36
Jim Bobgive it back, you agree that under your feminist view that you're you're arguing is better or good for society that there actually are no obligations. It's not a governmental system. What? That's what makes of course it's a governmental
01:44:49
Jim Bobsystem. Feminism is not a government. The moment you say women should have x rights, it becomes a governmental system. It's part of a You're appealing to the government. No, that mean appealing to the government is not the
01:45:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)same thing as being a government system. It is obvious that feminism is not equable in any way to like a democracy or monarchy, which is how like power gets. I I understand that. Well, the issue is that you're pointing at
01:45:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism and being like, "Look at it. It has no obligations." And it's like you're comparing that, but you're comparing that to government system. But world, most worldviews don't have obligations necessary to them. So,
01:45:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)what's better for a society? A society that has obligations or none? None. A society that has obligations is obviously better because that's how you make nation states. That's how you make society. Got you. So, does feminism have
01:45:36
Jim Bobobligations? Uh, again, it depends on what you mean by obligations. Does your view of feminism values or no any obligation that means you're compelled to act a certain way you're compelled to
01:45:47
Jim Bobdo certain duties in the world. You're compelled to act. No, feminism does not have obligations with not a government system. I got you. Premise one, a a worldview that has obligations and
01:46:00
Jim Bobduties is better than one that doesn't. Prem Hold on, let me finish. Premise two, trucks are way better than rainbows. Oh god, you She doesn't want this to hit. These are These are just analogous. Stop interrupting. Well, you're doing a fallacy. Stop. What's the
01:46:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)fallacy? The fallacy is that you're being disanalogous. What? That's not What are you talking about? What's this analogous? That that you're comparing feminism to a governmental system. It's not a governmental system. I didn't say government. You did because you said it
01:46:25
Jim Bobdoesn't have a way of enforcing obligations. But the only thing that can enforce obligations is a level. I didn't enforce obligations with government. I didn't say that. That didn't come out of
01:46:35
Jim Bobmy mouth. Okay. Okay. Premise one, don't interrupt me. Premise one, a society that has a worldview with obligations and duties is better than
01:46:46
Jim Bobone without. Right? Feminism doesn't have obligations and duties in its worldview. Conclusion, any worldview that has obligations and duties is
01:46:57
Jim Bobbetter than feminism. Okay. Uh would you like to respond to that? Yeah, it's just it's it's it's no premises. Don't don't meta Yelp review.
01:47:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Just get to the premises. Uh uh sure. Society with obligations is better than a side society without. Yeah, I'm not pro-anarchy. Feminism does not have obligations. In the case of like statehood, yeah, it doesn't. It's not purporting to be a governmental system.
01:47:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)This is again just a false analogy. Well, no, it's not an analogy. It's literally a premise. Views that you and I both would agree might be good things that don't have necessary obligations that you are compelled to do. For example, religion. That's a
01:47:34
Kyla (NotSoErudite)contradiction. Religion is a worldview that has duties and obligations. You are not forced to do anything. Nobody talked about force. What's wrong with your brain? That's what you said. No one said force. Then what does obligations mean? If you're not compelled to do it, what
01:47:45
Jim Bobdo you mean? It's it's a it's basically like you said you're a Christian, right? Yeah. How else are you compelled? Are you do you have an obligation? Uh as a Christian to to what? Tell me any
01:47:57
Jim Bobobligation on your mang mangled Christian view that's that you hold. Uh, I suppose to uh be honest before God. Got you. Do you go to jail if you're not honest before God? No, but now you're changing what obligations.
01:48:10
Jim BobI just demonstrated you could hold an obligation without any sort of force. Then why the [ __ ] were you talking about compelled obligations? Because we're talking about worldviews, right? If you as a feminist present feminism against
01:48:22
Jim Bobsay Christianity tonight and I counter with Christianity that is has tenfold obligations and duties baked into it by the argument that you just agreed to. Christianity which is patriarchal is
01:48:34
Kyla (NotSoErudite)better than feminism. It's the end of the debate. Just another false dichotomy. You're unironically making it seem like if Christianity exists then feminism can't. And it's just like nobody said that. You're just Yes, you did. Look, I How do you not know what a
01:48:47
Kyla (NotSoErudite)defeater is? All I'm doing, all I'm doing, Jim Bob, is I'm walking your own thoughts to their nth conclusion. Right. Uh yeah, you're not dealing with that. Do I need to do it slower? I am. The issue is that you have changed. So what
01:48:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you're doing is called equivocating. You're muddying a definition. So obligations, you started by talking about like state obligations, things that you were compelled to. She keeps bringing the state in. And I didn't bring the state in the argument. You
01:49:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)explicitly did because you were talking in my argument. We were talking about military. Where is it in my argument? Uh do you find it there? No. Sorry. Sorry. Are you just using obligations as
01:49:23
Kyla (NotSoErudite)a different word? What? Like why are you using obligate? Well, just before you were talking about obligations as a compelled thing from governments, which the enforcement arm, right? You have a duty to your nation. That's an
01:49:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)obligation. You can be compelled to do it. Now you're talking about obligations. But I think what you mean is values. These are not the same thing. Hold on a second. So when you say obligations, do you mean things that you can be forced to do that are punished if
01:49:48
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you don't do? I'll give you another one that's answer my question. When you are talking about obligations, are you talking about things that you if you don't do that you ought to do? You can No, not ought that you can be forced to do. Well, no. I just demonstrated. Okay.
01:50:01
Jim BobThen feminism does have obligations of what you ought to do. I Okay, cool. So you're making moral ought claims, right? Well, now because remember you went Remember you went here with Jay? Are you sure you want to go there with me? Yeah, of course. because I [ __ ] dumpstered
01:50:13
Jim BobJay on that too. You couldn't tell me. You couldn't tell him or the audience or me why from a feminist view we ought to do anything. I did multiple times. He just didn't accept the premise. Uh as a
01:50:25
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminist, you should. So specifically, the ought is that we should try to empower women and uh promote feminist. That's not an argument. That's an assertion. Do you know what an argument is? Okay, buddy. Um premise one, we
01:50:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)should do the thing in question. The evidence for this, the evidence for this of why we ought to do this is that it is good for a society. It is unavoidable and uh necess necess a necessity to maintain a competitive GDP in a global
01:50:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)foreign nation. It is also a morally good thing to basically uplift your sisters in Christ. Um and I think I got into another one. Wow. So it's a Christian you're using a Christian
01:51:02
Kyla (NotSoErudite)paradigm or is it mixed? You're doing like a sort of like uh Chipotle mixed burrito theology. Well, there's going to be like moral claims. There's some certain Christian cuz we share like a similar uh Christian value. Obviously, we don't hold secular people to
01:51:15
Jim BobChristian moral systems, right? Cuz they're secular. This is obviously true. Okay. So, how is feminism Christian then? I've not said that it's Christian necessarily. I'm saying as Christians, it's a good view. You just said we
01:51:26
Kyla (NotSoErudite)should elevate women in Christ. You're smuggling in a Christian view into your feminist view. Yeah. I'm I'm arguing why I as a Christian think that like these feminist values are good. But I'm not saying as a Christian you should be a
01:51:37
Jim Bobfeminism. You should be a feminist. Sorry. Well, I mean, okay. So, back to the argument. If it's the case that any worldview that has obligations and
01:51:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)duties is better than one without and feminism actually doesn't really have any it does have obligations if we're just talking about things that you ought to do as a result of the world view, right? So, like feminism for example would say that you ought to respect
01:52:01
Kyla (NotSoErudite)women. You ought to give them consent. You ought to allow them to like self-determine. You ought to like treat women respectfully. You ought to like look at feminine things and view them as
01:52:11
Jim Bobgood things. These would be oughts that feminism would make ought you not as a feminist start and only fans. Uh that's mixed. There's some feminists that are
01:52:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)very uh No, you you're the one debating tonight. I don't think that I ought No, I don't think there's any feminist who would say that you ought to I didn't talk about any feminist. You're the
01:52:31
Jim Bobfeminist in the seat right now. Ought we from your view ought ought your friend be an only fans chick. No, I don't think it's a moral good to be an only fans chick. Okay. So ought she ought not uh
01:52:44
Jim Bobfeminism would be pretty neutral on that. By and large she my feminist view would be that you get to self-determine, right? So you get to make that choice. So if you ought to self-determine and she determines that she ought she she should be online prostitute then she
01:52:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ought be an online prostitute. This is no longer an ought statement at this point. What the only ought statement is that woman should be allowed to self-determine. After that, what she chooses to do isn't necessarily morally good or morally bad. We have to look at
01:53:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the actual behavior itself to evaluate if her choice in that behavior was morally good or morally bad. The of feminism is just letting women make choices. So, so when is it in the
01:53:20
Kyla (NotSoErudite)behavior you determine that it's bad? Uh, sorry, I got distracted by that person's PFP because it was funny. Uh, say that again. When in the process of
01:53:29
Kyla (NotSoErudite)an action do you determine it's bad? Uh super uh complicated. Depends on your like moral system. What a surprise. Yeah. Well, of course, like the moral system. So like if this feminist for
01:53:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)example is a utilitarian then we might like look at something like does porn negatively impact men and does sex work negatively impact you? And I would say like for the majority of men and women both of these things are negative. So
01:53:52
Jim Bobthat a utilitarian level that individual might decide you should not do. Wait, this is this is contrary with your first ethical system, which is merely that you should have a say in what you're doing is ultimately the prim the primary
01:54:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ethical view is that you have a choice in the matter that you can will your own behavior. No, this isn't super complicated. You asked what are some of the odds of feminism. One of the odds of feminis is that women should be able to choose what they do. But that doesn't mean that all of their choices are
01:54:18
Kyla (NotSoErudite)morally good or morally bad. Let women have children if they can. Uh again, uh I don't think it's a moral good to have children. No, it's not a moral good to have children. No. Okay. So, how do you determine it's not a moral good to have
01:54:30
Kyla (NotSoErudite)children? How do I determine that it's not a moral good? Yeah, cuz that's a pretty affirmative statement that it's not a moral good to have children. I didn't say it's bad, right? I didn't say it's not moral. It's amoral. It's neutral. Yeah. I think having children's pretty neutral. You can pretty much
01:54:43
Kyla (NotSoErudite)anyone can spread their legs and get sperm dumped into them. I don't think it's like a particularly meaningful thing. Okay. And you and you call yourself a Christian? Uh, do you or not? Are you just laring or what is it? Sorry. Well, I'm assuming
01:54:55
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that there's an attack here, right? So, the the the whole night is an attack. Why Why are you now that we're talking about trying to get your worldview? It's all over the [ __ ] You're not You're not really trying to, right? Like, are you a Christian is a question. Well, what you're doing is you're
01:55:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)equivocating. You're pivoting. You're asking me a bunch of questions. You're not really giving me any space to ask you questions back. What you'll notice all the affirmative is you have not made a Who's the affirmative? I don't know because there isn't actually a premise.
01:55:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism is good for society is the affirmative. That wasn't even what we agreed to to debate. What do you mean? We talked about just fleshing out the idea of like different branches of feminism. Neither one of us like made the same because you and I both agreed
01:55:34
Jim Bobthat it would be a little silly to rehash the same argument for the third time. You call yourself some sort of Orthodox Protestant. I don't even know if it's a meme. I'm trying to get from your view. It's called radical
01:55:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)orthodoxy. Radical Orthodoxy. Okay. For so revolutionary orthodoxy. Nope. What's radical about it? It's radical because it like aims to go back to like the way that the ancients engaged with the
01:55:56
Kyla (NotSoErudite)original scripture. Ancient who? The ancients who like wrote it like the oral traditionists and stuff. Who are those? Uh that would be like 1200 BC to like uh
01:56:06
Jim Bobprobably like 30 AD. Oh, so you're arguing that the original Orthodox church and the church fathers, it's not Easter. Sorry,
01:56:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)I know Orthodox is confusing. It's not like Eastern Orthodox term. It's closer to Protestant. Oh, Protestantis. Oh, that was around then. Nope. Oh, interesting. Protestants can still engage. Like again, you're just doing the thing where
01:56:31
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you're like this word wasn't made. So you can't like and analyze it from history. Like obviously as a Protestant, you can look back at what the ancients did and try to divine some like meaning thing. But again, I want to be really cautious. I'm not a spiritual leader. I don't actually need to go into length
01:56:44
Jim Bobabout like talking about theology. Well, that's fine. I I don't I'm not uh super uh well-versed in it either, but I just wanted to get the the peripheral basics because when you say it's not a moral