1v1 DEBATE: Jimbob vs. NotSoErudite -- Feminism Debate | Whatever Debates #16
Date: 2025-05-11
Duration: 3h 29m
Brian AtlasIdentified Speakers
SPEAKER_01Brian Atlas(host)
SPEAKER_02Kyla (NotSoErudite)(guest)
SPEAKER_04Jim Bob(guest)
Key Moments
00:00:18
IntroBrian introduces debate: Jim Bob vs Kyla (NotSoErudite) on feminism
00:02:00
Key MomentJim Bob opens: feminism is self-contradictory, depends on patriarchal power it opposes
01:40:03
Key MomentKyla concedes she defers to husband Nick on final decisions, honoring Christian headship
02:13:45
QuoteKyla: having children is 'amoral'/neutral — prompts Jim Bob to challenge her Christian credentials
03:02:18
Key MomentJim Bob closing: feminism has no standard and no obligations
03:06:05
Key MomentKyla closing: Jim Bob doesn't know three branches of government or understand GDP
Topics Discussed
00:02:00
Definition of Feminism
Jim Bob: self-contradictory (depends on patriarchal structures it opposes). Kyla: empowerment of women and promotion of femininity.
00:29:00
Force Doctrine and Patriarchy
Whether society is underpinned by male force. Jim Bob: women's rights are allowances granted by men. Kyla rejects 'stolen valor' framing.
01:36:00
Feminism's Lack of Duties
Jim Bob: feminism has no built-in duties/obligations unlike Christianity. Kyla: has values/oughts even without formal obligations.
02:00:00
Christian Marriage and Submission
Kyla's Radical Orthodoxy view. She defers to husband Nick on final decisions. Discussion of Christian headship.
03:02:18
Closing Statements
Jim Bob: feminism has no standard, no obligations. Kyla: Jim Bob equivocates on obligations vs values.
Transcript
Page 1 of 4
00:00:18
Brian AtlasWelcome to a debate edition of the Whatever podcast. We're coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California. I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas. A few quick announcements before the show begins. This podcast is viewer supported
00:00:31
Brian Atlasheavy YouTube demonetization. So, please consider donating through Streamlabs instead of super chatting as YouTube takes a brutal 30% cut. that streamlabs.com/ whatever link is in the description. We do
00:00:42
Brian Atlasprioritize messages that are made via Streamlabs over super chats. To read a message is $99 and up. We will pull pull those up in batches at various breaks throughout the debate. We're also live on Twitch right now. Pull up another
00:00:55
Brian Atlastab. Go to twitch.tv/w whatever. Drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one. Without further ado, I'm going to introduce our two debaters. I'm joined today by Jim
00:01:06
Brian AtlasBob. He is a political commentator and political cartoonist for the Washington oh my Washington Examiner. Also joining us
00:01:17
Brian Atlastoday is Kyla or as she goes online not so aerodite. She has a undergraduate degree in psychology and a graduate diploma in psychometrics. She's a
00:01:28
Brian Atlascontent creator, streamer and political commentator. Thank you both for joining me today. The topic of today's debate is feminism. and we've kind of uh
00:01:38
Brian Atlasspontaneously possibly added a few other prompts to uh you will each have a five up to a 5minute opening statement. The rest of the show will be open conversation with a few breaks for
00:01:49
Brian Atlasaudience messages. At the end, you will each have up to a fiveminut closing statement. And Jim Bob, we're going to have you do your opening statement first. Sure. Go ahead. All right. Well,
00:02:00
Jim Bobfeminism, at least broadly stated, is the advocacy of equality of sexes. Um, definitionally, that would be a movement away from uh a society that has men in
00:02:12
Jim Bobpower. I would call that uh patriarchy. Men holding the power and women are largely excluded from those positions. Um, I see an immediate contradiction. Um, it would be up to my opponent
00:02:25
Jim Bobtonight to redefine feminism to maybe uh get away from this contradiction. But if feminism is some type of movement away from male power or a patriarchy, then
00:02:36
Jim Bobany form of feminism that I can point to or I think my opponent uh my opponent can point to relies on that same power. So for example, if we go back to the uh
00:02:47
Jim Bobeven the 18th amendment before they had voting, they appealed to men, right? um when the 19th amendment came along, they were actually still appealing to men. So
00:02:56
Jim Bobthe question is, well, is that a movement toward feminism or is it just affirming the power that men actually have and sort of asking like a parent,
00:03:06
Jim Bobcan they have a larger allowance this week? I think it's the latter. Um the funny thing about feminism is that while it's rooted in this sentiment that the patriarchy is this authoritative
00:03:18
Jim Boboppressive regime, um if we look back maybe maybe around the 80s and and onward, the voting patterns ironically uh from women are highly tilted toward
00:03:30
Jim Bobexpanding authoritative government power, which is kind of a funny irony. The sentiment again is men oppress. We got to break the oppressive uh uh patterns of society. And yet all of
00:03:42
Jim Bobtheir voting patterns actually points to the opposite expanding government authority which I another irony is that that government authority is mostly men. Um the feminist screeches about liberty
00:03:53
Jim Boband autonomy then votes for more government intrusion. Um, now while we heard uh plenty from Andrew Wilson on the force doctrine, it is definitely an undefeated argument. Even if you got a
00:04:05
Jim Bobgorilla to deliver the argument in sign language, it would still be better than any feminist argument I've ever heard. However, we won't uh beat that horse to death, but I do want to include it in
00:04:16
Jim Bobthe in the debate. Um, I also want to include that uh that feminism largely defined today, the metrics for feminism, the metrics for liberty, the the metrics
00:04:27
Jim Bobfor well-being is often placed on just mere uh maybe economic liberalism or or some sort of outcomebased
00:04:35
Jim Bobu system that's measuring materialism, um, some type of wealth, um, some type of mobility economically.
00:04:46
Jim BobUm, and it's rooted in consumerism, which is kind of funny because uh the movement uh that feminism made throughout the last couple hundred years
00:04:56
Jim Bobcoincided with uh a predominantly malrun industriist um um part of society. Um the industrialists uh maybe they looked at the women and
00:05:08
Jim Bobsaid, "Huh, that's a whole other taxable uh income right there. They're just sitting ducks, right?" in, you know, safe in their home raising the children. We got to get them out of let's get them in the workplace. Let's get them with
00:05:20
Jim Bobdebt. And lo and behold, uh, many years later, uh, women, I think now the percent is about 75%. Uh, women hold 75%
00:05:30
Jim Bobof the consumer debt now. So, you know, my opponent might uh define feminism as a good thing because it produces well-being. I would argue even with the
00:05:40
Jim Bobdebt, um, holding debt, even the stress of debt, uh, as a man holding debt, uh, the kind of stress that could put on you, I don't think that would add too much to your well-being, there's other metrics you could look at to argue that
00:05:52
Jim Bobthe well-being is actually not great with the pursuit of pure materialism. Um, so if my opponent tonight offers a metric for the good rooted only in
00:06:03
Jim Bobmaterial outcomes, uh, consumer outcomes, buying, purchasing power, uh, this type of thing, I would just point out that the goodness of a society
00:06:13
Jim Bobcannot be reduced and should not be reduced to strict materialism. Um, let's see what else. Um, the other question is what's the
00:06:23
Jim Bobpayoff? So when we uh advocate uh the the the basic feminist talking point is liberate the woman from this terrible home uh situation that they're in. They're they're a slave to their man.
00:06:36
Jim BobThey're a slave to their husband. They're a slave to their children. I don't see many alternatives. The alternative that I've seen in the last 30 years is mostly uh being a slave to
00:06:47
Jim Bobuh more of a stranger of a man who's a CEO. um and your home becomes the office. And uh I'm not sure what the trade-off is because what what happens
00:06:57
Jim Bobwith feminists is they basically forfeit their fertile years and then, you know, 20 years later they wake up, they're 44, they have wine stained teeth, they have seven cats, and they're wondering where all the men are. Where are all the good
00:07:10
Jim Bobmen? Well, I'll tell you where the good men are. They're already married and they're married to women who rejected feminism. And lucky for them, they have children. They have a legacy. they have
00:07:19
Jim Bobsomething bigger to live into than strict material uh wants and desires. Um so with that said, I just want to point out one more time the contradiction that's in feminism and I don't know if
00:07:32
Jim Bobmy opponent will be able to get out of this. If feminism is merely the advocacy of equality of sexes, but it depends on a structure that is demonstrable inequal it's it
00:07:45
Jim Bobdemonstrates inequality of the se the sexes. um that is the society we live in. So in a weird roundabout way, any concept or application of feminism
00:07:55
Jim Bobappeals to patriarchy. So in a rhetorical sense, feminism is still patriarchal. It's it's it can't avoid it. Patriarchy is a natural description
00:08:06
Jim Bobof reality. To argue for feminism is to argue with reality. And I think uh the way feminists generally argue uh the way they generally live seems to be
00:08:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)consistent with a constant rejection of reality. Okay, Kylo, what about you for your opening statement? Awesome. So, I'm super appreciative uh Jim and I talked beforehand just to make sure that for the viewers, we gave them a slightly
00:08:31
Kyla (NotSoErudite)different conversation cuz I know this is like feminism two for people who watched the previous debate. Um, so maybe what I'll try to do in my intro is
00:08:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)maybe outline where my feminism maybe differs from others. Um, and we can kind of get into that. Um, and kind of break down basically what I would view as like
00:08:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)good feminism versus bad feminists. So feminism to me is a like a construct and an idea. Um, and so within the idea there is people, there are feminists and some of them are great like Simone
00:09:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Deavois, love her. Um, and Dichi is an incredible writer and there are bad feminists. Um, just like any movement and any idea, the idea to me of feminism, um, I think it started out as this idea of equality for
00:09:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)sexes and I think that that was important for the first initial waves. I don't I don't think feminists are being super honest with themselves if they say that that's what it's for now because I think we've achieved a lot of equality.
00:09:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Women by and large have the same access to opportunities as men. There are a couple of like soft cultural limits that I would agree to. There's some certain cultural patriarchal elements that I think might still inhibit women a little
00:09:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)bit. Um, but by and large, women can go to school, they can get a job, they can apply for any job that a man can. Um, they essentially have all the same freedoms of opportunities that men do, which is awesome. Um, I think what
00:09:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism is doing now and should be focused on is essentially what I label feminism as, which is a um, hold on, I'll pull it up. Empowerment of women
00:10:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)um, and a promotion of femininity. And maybe for this conversation, we can focus specifically, at least for me, on the promotion of femininity. Um, because I think that that's the area that needs the most work. Um, I think third-wave
00:10:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism did a really good job at stretching the boundaries of what it meant to be a woman. I think it opened up a lot of more masculine traditional w roles for women that women couldn't
00:10:27
Kyla (NotSoErudite)really occupy before. Um, but I don't think that feminism's done a very good job of building its own table. Um, and that's what a lot of fourthwave feminists kind of advocate for is this
00:10:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)kind of building of a new table and a promotion of femininity that isn't reliant on just like engaging in hyper masculine structures. Um, feminism that I don't stand by. There's a lot of
00:10:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminists, for example, that um, basically dismiss all male- related issues. They think bisandry doesn't matter. Um, I reject those feminists. We
00:11:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)don't agree. Um there are certain kind of dorkanites for example who um I would say just Missandry feels like not even enough to describe the level of
00:11:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)hatred she has for men. I am not a dorkanite. I don't apply to her ideas. And like Gloria Steinum um she's a classical thirdwave kind of lib feminist. She's very fixated on just
00:11:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like women getting into careers and that's kind of it. She's um yeah very fixated on women in careers and I don't care about that other than if women want to go into careers that they can. Um so that would be my form of feminism. I
00:11:37
Kyla (NotSoErudite)know that I didn't address a lot of your opening statement but I did write it down. So if you want to go back to anything we totally can. Um but yeah I I think the feminism that focus focuses on promotion of femininity would be the
00:11:48
Jim Bobmost good for women now. Okay. So you said empowerment and femininity. So let's do empowerment first. Could you define empowerment from your perspective? Yeah.
00:12:01
Jim BobSo for me, empowerment of women would be like removing obstacles for opportunity. Okay. Mhm. So from your feminist view of empowerment plus femininity, would you
00:12:12
Jim Bobsay it's empower empowering for women to stay home and be mothers? It can be if that's what they choose. Yeah. Okay. And so is it if it's empowering for women to choose and they're choosing based on
00:12:25
Jim Bobtheir femininity, if it actually produced uh a large disparity where women actually found positions in society that were maybe lower in power
00:12:35
Jim Bobum administrative helping, teaching, mothering. If that was the outcome of pure choice, um you wouldn't you wouldn't declare that there's some
00:12:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)inequality or injustice between the disparity of men in power and women in lower positions. I think you bring up a really good point. In more egalitarian societies, we actually often see women trending towards more fem traditional
00:12:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)roles. Like women tend to want to be nurses and teachers more often. You see this in like Scandinavian countries. And I will say for the caveat, some people dispute that evidence. Um the evidence when I look at it seems pretty robust. So yeah, I think women will often still
00:13:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)trend towards some of those traditional gender roles which I'm totally for. I just want to make sure that they're choosing it and that the women who wouldn't be choosing that have the opportunity to choose something else. Okay. And then is there any reason from
00:13:23
Jim Bobyour view choosing to be a mother at home and a wife? Is there any reason you could see that that's actually more empowering than an alternative? For instance, let me give you a strict
00:13:33
Jim Bobexample. Sure. If a woman that you knew and loved, for instance, relative or friend, said, "You know what? I'm really drawn to being a mother. I really am
00:13:43
Jim Bobdrawn to the traditional structure of life. Uh, I could just really see myself raising like five kids, but there's this other impulse of me that wants to just start an Only Fans. I don't know what it
00:13:56
Jim Bobis about it." like from a feminist view that you're defending today, is it is it either or is fine or is one better for her and better for society? I think that's a good question. So, when I think
00:14:07
Kyla (NotSoErudite)about like what's the best choice for somebody, I break it into three things, which is the choices you make should be something that your past self, your present self, and your future self will consent to and like, right? And so I
00:14:19
Kyla (NotSoErudite)think when you're posing this question, the only fans option has a lot of potential acute short-term gain, a fuckload of money obviously, but the important question is, will your future self consent to that and like it? And I
00:14:33
Kyla (NotSoErudite)think that's a really big question. And I think the answer for some women is yes. I have met like a girl is a good example of somebody who I think has said yes to the only fan sex work thing and it seems to genuinely bring a lot of
00:14:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)fruit to her life. But I think for like a lot of women that kind of get romanticized into sex work, they forget about their future selves because they think their future selves will be grateful for all the money when in
00:14:56
Kyla (NotSoErudite)reality most women that do do Only Fans don't make that much money. And also you have to deal with the fact that your sex and body is is okay. From the answer, it sounds like the lens you're using to
00:15:08
Jim Bobdetermine your answer is purely individualistic. Uh it's it's decently individualistic. I would agree with that. So if it is
00:15:16
Jim Bobmostly individualistic and if your position in this debate anyway is you're taking the affirmative that feminism is good for society which is beyond individualistic. Right? So now you have
00:15:29
Jim Bobto add in one more variable when you're coaching your friend here. Um because what they determine they might like or not like in the future may not be uh
00:15:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)tied directly necessarily to what's best for society. Yep, I would agree. The the caveat to that that I would basically poke is if individualism doesn't lead to a flourishing society, then why is it the
00:15:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)case that the most individualistic country, i.e. America, is one of the most predominant countries in the world. And so I understand what you're saying. There's a certain level of responsibility we should have to our community essentially. Um I just think
00:16:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that individualism often seems to somehow I'm not even sure exactly the process uh do this to some degree. Um, which is why we have most
00:16:12
Kyla (NotSoErudite)individualistic nations being the the strongest, most kind of happiest, highest GDP, all all the all the factors of goodness for this. I mean, if you
00:16:24
Jim Bobdefine good as merely productive, um, you could definitely do counterarguments of like, let's say Epstein Island got off the ground and, uh, it's actually
00:16:34
Jim Boblogically and practically possible for you to do horrific things in a society and still produce a high GDP GDP. But the other aspect of what you just said
00:16:44
Jim Bobis um that individualism if it produces all of these goods, but what's best for society uh as a necessity is replacing your
00:16:56
Kyla (NotSoErudite)population. Would you agree that we're not doing good in replacing our population? Uh yeah, I think birth rates being low is it's very tied to kind of
00:17:06
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like liberal financial success. Uh and it's it's harmful. I just don't think it's fundamentally tied. I think actually going to Israel and seeing all these like liberal left-leaning Jewish
00:17:17
Kyla (NotSoErudite)people having 90,000 babies um is a very it's very interesting. It's a very big counter to the standard liberal of like the more money a country makes the less well. The reason I brought that up is if
00:17:30
Jim Bobthe next generation of children and the generation after that is a necessity, a a necessary component for a good society, regardless of what we agree on good is, if that's necessary, I would
00:17:41
Jim Bobargue that every form of feminism that I've seen, which is largely tied to individualism, um, doesn't actually have a way of advocating for that in a meaningful way.
00:17:51
Jim BobSo the philosophy itself is missing what I would call deontology or in simple terms any duties. So any feminism you
00:18:01
Jim Bobdon't like that I also don't like there's no duties. There's no real true duties to say you're a feminist. And even in the the version that you're proposing that's anti those other crazy ones, right? You're against these crazy
00:18:13
Jim Bobones. even your position there's no act there's no real duty for a woman who's a feminist to produce the next generation and so this is why I I measure it up
00:18:24
Jim Bobagainst other cultures or other uh uh worldviews in this case Christianity has a built-in not that this debate is feminism verse Christianity I just want to bring it as a a reference is the
00:18:36
Jim Bobmissing element of duties there's no obligation for you to influence another woman to have a child in in a meaningful nudging way, right? You know, like nudging. I'm not talking about force.
00:18:48
Jim BobI'm not talking about punishment for not promotion of it. Yeah. Yeah. Super propagandized, right? It you would agree that feminism largely from the start
00:18:57
Jim Bobuntil now is not only I wouldn't say indifferent to family, but actually advocates against it. The one you're arguing for, as I as I understand it, you're like, "No, I've met a lot of
00:19:09
Jim Bobfeminists who want to have kids. They're ant they're not this anti-natalist like group. You'd have to concede that the most part the propaganda that we see the dominant
00:19:19
Jim Bobthe dominant narrative is basically anti-f family anti-child pro boss babe go get it girl sell your body girl you if you got it flaunt it this kind of
00:19:30
Jim Bobthing right and the the reason I bring this up is that that kind of narrative that kind of worldview is purely self-centered and doesn't actually produce what's necessary for a thriving
00:19:42
Jim Bobsociety so even if I granted you I don't concede to your metrics of what's good but even if I granted you the whole thing like oh well-being, happiness, this everything you could add, right?
00:19:53
Jim BobMoney, housing, whatever you whatever you want to add in there, it's all fairly meaningless if there's not a component that values uh reproducing
00:20:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)society itself as a virtue even. So feminism itself has no virtues. Uh I wouldn't say feminism has no virtues. It definitely has virtues. I think there's a I think there's a valid critique which
00:20:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)is saying feminism doesn't celebrate motherhood enough. I agree with that. I think it's complicated when you look at antiatalism because antiatalism isn't a
00:20:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)purely feminist thing. There's a number of different philosophies and worldviews that are antiatalist, right? Um communism would be another example of one that tends to be often be very antiatalist. Um, and I think antiatalism
00:20:40
Jim Bobis is death culty behavior. I think it's it's very hard. Can I interrupt you? I want to ask you, why do you think it is that feminism I agree there's antiatalists that maybe aren't feminists, but why do you think it is
00:20:51
Jim Bobthat most feminists and the history of feminism is largely inextricably tied to an anti-natalist sentiment? That's a really good question. So, this might be where we first uh differ pretty
00:21:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)significantly. I think a large reason for why feminism has been so anti-natalist is because the family and the duty of motherhood has been
00:21:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)weaponized historically as a chain to enforce women stay home, not be able to work and not be able to basically like autonomy. Sure. Before uh and during the
00:21:23
Jim Bobsuffragette movement, do you know that primarily the women who were uh being challenged to maybe grab their vote, they opposed it? Yep. willfully. Yep.
00:21:34
Jim BobHappily, and they they weren't uh under the impression that they were chained to their husband's uh lazy boy, right? They
00:21:44
Jim Bobtook a position that not only one, they didn't want the um the guarantor position of let's say credit. Um they didn't want to be able to be also
00:21:55
Jim Bobdrafted and put into dangerous situations. They also had a a nice uh hearty moral uh lens that they all shared. They were sort of like the moral
00:22:05
Jim Bobbarometers of the time. And so they were actually I would argue that prefeminism especially during that time frame where the let's face it the really ugly women who couldn't find husbands were like we
00:22:17
Jim Bobneed power right they have power. These other women are getting married. All of the married women that you say are chained to their husbands, right? They came out and said, "We don't want the
00:22:27
Jim Bobvote." The suffragette movement actually stopped tried to physically stop them from showing up to vote against their own vote. So why is it that the majority
00:22:38
Jim Bobof women at that time didn't share the sentiment that they were enslaved? If they were enslaved, wouldn't they be coming out and saying, "Free us. Free us from this terrible atrocity called
00:22:49
Kyla (NotSoErudite)motherhood." Well, it's a little bit of a misnomer to tie their aversion to getting the vote to them claiming that they're not chained necessarily, right? Their aversion to the vote was specifically because of drafting and
00:23:02
Kyla (NotSoErudite)some concerns about debt. However, as the suffragette movement started taking off and women realized that black men were going to get the vote, they began flocking towards the suffragette movement and became largely embraced.
00:23:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)And so while I would agree that the early suffragettes were some of the most dislikable women on the planet, that doesn't change the fact that as time goes on, it very quickly becomes a
00:23:24
Jim Bobdeeply subsumed belief that increasingly most women across North America desired. Okay. And I put it in my opening, the increase of women voting, uh the
00:23:35
Jim Bobsentiment is more power, um challenging the man, equal equalizing the power, offsetting the disparity of power. Do you find it a bit ironic that every that
00:23:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)predominantly what women vote for enhances the power of of of man essentially? Because you're talking about big government essentially getting increases like welfare state. I just think it's disanalogous to compare these
00:23:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)two things. I don't I don't think that um like social safety networks for example is in any What about gun laws? Yeah, I would agree that gun laws are are more controlling. The issue is that
00:24:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)regulation the reason that people like desire regulation is not necessarily in in in confluence or in um sorry I'm getting tired so I'm losing my words.
00:24:21
Kyla (NotSoErudite)It's it's not uh in dissonance with wanting freedom. Right? There's this idea, it's actually popular within the church that to have true freedom, you need some level of like structure and
00:24:31
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like systems around you. And so most liberals who are pro institutions and pro welfare states are also very pro- freedom. These two things aren't inherently disanalogous. Do you do you
00:24:42
Jim Bobthink that there's something about the nature ontology of women females uh that they're drawn to voting for more safe things uh against liberty against um basically
00:24:55
Jim Boblike here's a way of putting it rhetorically when women vote largely they're voting for basically a daycare center. They're like vic they're they want society because it's their nature
00:25:06
Jim Bobto to basically look like a safe room where no one gets hurt because they see the world as kind of their their children and that's actually a good trait. It's just that it's misdirected. This is why the the question of the
00:25:18
Jim Bobnature of men and women uh which we'll get into gender roles uh in society that the nature of men and women actually directs and informs where they end up in the world in society. And so I think the
00:25:31
Jim Bobfeminist movement is some type of reaction that um tries to compensate for some perception of like uh inequality but then overcompensates and throws
00:25:42
Kyla (NotSoErudite)women into situations where they really they wouldn't end up if if the choice was there anyway for the most part. Yeah. But the key part of the key element is the choice, right? like
00:25:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)choice and free will and ability to self-determine is like one of the most fundamental it's one of the most fundamental things to our faith as well is this idea of free will and salvation.
00:26:03
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Can a blind person use their free will to get the pilot job? No. Okay. So, there are limitations, right? Yeah, of course there's biological limitations, but that's what I'm talking about. It's not the will. If I could just answer you just a little bit at length because you
00:26:16
Kyla (NotSoErudite)said a number of things. So to respond to your like care orientation in voting, I would agree that in general women tend to vote left and seem to be very careoriented. I just think that that's a good thing about society. I think a society that takes care of people who
00:26:29
Kyla (NotSoErudite)can't take care of themselves very well is good. Right? I I believe in social safety networks, I think that they're valuable to society. And I think the fact that women brought that into our policies is good. While I'd also grant
00:26:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you that there are elements of major overstep. For example, gun laws. I am not actually opposed to gun laws. I just think what happens with gun laws for example is the people that advocate them
00:26:52
Jim Bobhave no sophistication in gun technology. Okay. So the well yeah women generally uh speaking don't have knowledge of how to operate the a gun or have the strength to even operate a gun for the most part and they're voting for
00:27:05
Jim Bobgun laws and they don't know anything about guns. So that's what I'm pointing to is that their nature is actually towards safety, but they're actually asking men to uh basically legislate the
00:27:17
Jim Bobsafety and enforce the safety. Well, they're asking authority is men. Well, if feminism is if feminism is is a thing, right, that you're arguing for
00:27:28
Jim Bobdefinitionally, like I talked I asked you before the debate, is there a correction going on? So if feminism exists, it starts with the assumption that there's some sort of inequality,
00:27:40
Jim Bobsomething that needs to be corrected, or even lightly that there's a disparity of power in the balance, right? A balance of power. Can I ask you a question? Let's go back. In the 1920s, could women own land? I don't think so. Could they
00:27:52
Jim Bobuh go to school of their own free choice? Um, I'm not sure about that one. I know that uh some of them could work. There's a myth that they couldn't work. I'm not sure what year. Um, but leading,
00:28:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you know, as time goes on, they didn't even get credit cards until 1970. Sure. I guess maybe a follow-up question to that would be you probably don't think it's good that women can work or have land. I don't want to put words in your
00:28:16
Jim Bobmouth. Is that I don't even think it's good that all men uh uh uh necessarily uh should vote if like cuz land and voting all these things were tied
00:28:26
Jim Bobtogether back then. And so um the land question is should women have land? Well, if you bought the land, what do you have land for? It's like you're you're not going to be the one defending it ultimately. It's going to be a man defending it. So, it's going to be fiat
00:28:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)defending it, right? And I I I don't What do you mean? Wait, what do you mean by that? Well, what I mean by that is this idea where what you'll you're talking about the enforcement arm, and we've talked about this before. I think it's a very silly idea to basically
00:28:51
Kyla (NotSoErudite)steal the valor of a small select group of young able-bodied men who have a penchant for violence who are willing to enact order as saying that this is like men doing this thing. So it's like well
00:29:03
Jim Bobsort of but it's specifically it's the same men wait the same you're relying on do you get any of your feminist policy passed without the young strapping group of men with a pension for violence? Yes. Most No you don't. No you don't. Yeah.
00:29:16
Jim BobMost policy isn't passed through violence. Uh, no. It's enforced with violence. U, all policy is enforced with vi violence. So, no, hold on, hold on. If you pass, if you pass a policy, men don't get to steal valor from other men.
00:29:29
Jim BobHold on a second. There's no valor. We're not talking about valor. The point is that there's a difference between a group of men and a group of women. We're not saying that because a group of men uh hold this position of power that
00:29:41
Jim Bobthese other men get the some type of privilege, right? We're saying that men collectively descriptively that you're you're trying to say, "Oh, a pension for violence." As if that's a bad thing. Like, it's not a bad thing. So, it's
00:29:53
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like, hold on. Just to be clear, I don't think that's a bad thing. Well, it it it sounded like a porative. No, that that would only be because if you think that I think violence is inherently evil, which I don't. I like cops and soldiers.
00:30:04
Jim BobSo, you agree that when a if a woman had the money to buy land, you would agree that she couldn't actually defend it from intruders? Well, with guns, she probably decently could, but the reality is that the man would be able to defend
00:30:17
Jim Bobit pretty similarly, especially with guns. Okay, here's my question. If the landowning situation is a microcosm of society, does the man in your view of
00:30:28
Kyla (NotSoErudite)feminism have an obligation to defend anything if he owns is he the land owner? Any man, any man in society, whether it's at the land level or a stranger, a stranger walking down the street. This is a really good clarifying
00:30:41
Jim Bobquestion. Most men don't have the obligation. The men that do are the the individuals who join the enforcement arm as your authority. That's actually not true. Well, typically the police are required to respond. No. Well, no. Respond to a crime. The police actually
00:30:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)have no obligation in the US to defend your property or your body. Well, they they do to an extent, right? Like most cops Well, most cops don't intervene because it's No, it's a Supreme Court
00:31:03
Jim Bobcase, Colorado. Um there's another one. It's the whole protect and serve thing. This is like uh people conflate this. They think the cops are legally bound or
00:31:14
Jim Bobsomehow obligated to protect you and your property. They're actually not. Their job is to respond to a violation of law or or something else. So the violation could be someone hurt you. The
00:31:27
Jim Bobviolation could be someone stole something. But as far as defending it, the obligation is for you and your family to defend your life and others. And so that this is why I asked question. To be clear though, this is really muddy, right? Because depending
00:31:39
Kyla (NotSoErudite)on the state that you're in, the your ability to defend your land is actually very criminally questionable because in some states you can't really defend your land, right? And so this idea that you're saying like cops don't have to defend you. Why is that? Well, hold on. Hold on. Just let me finish my thoughts.
00:31:52
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Right. In the case of cops, you're right. They you can't call them beforehand. Well, actually, you can a lot of the time. A lot of times, say you have a trespasser, you don't even have to defend your land. You can often times call the cops as long as you have a sign
00:32:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)up and they can show up and kick you off the land. That's when they show up. Be the cop protecting your land. You protect. That's if they show up. Well, they usually do it. No, no, no. Look, anytime there's an Do you know how many
00:32:16
Jim Bobself-defense instances are reported in the US alone? I'm sure super high, which is why there's lessions. Yeah, I'm not opposed to self-defense. Hold on a second. No, but you are opposed to self-defense. Well, why is it that if
00:32:27
Jim Bobyou're defending feminism and that that includes females voting and females vote with patterns that lead to people's inability to use their own weapon, is that a good thing? This you're just creating like this. No, no, no. I want
00:32:40
Jim Bobto ask you a question. Is it a good thing if the government passes legislation where a man or a woman uh has constrained ability to defend themselves? It's it you would have to
00:32:52
Jim Bobgive me the exact specific. Is it a generally a good thing for society to restrict one's capability of using a gun in their pocket as self-defense? Again, there's I actually can't give you
00:33:05
Kyla (NotSoErudite)a super clear. There are going to be instances where I think using a gun for self-defense is bad. Like I don't like Florida's stand your ground policy, but there are also where you should be able to. If there's over a million, and
00:33:16
Jim Bobthat's only the ones that are reported, uses per year of self-defense with a gun in the US. Okay. If that person wasn't allowed to use their gun in those instances, would that
00:33:29
Jim Bobbe a good thing or a bad thing? That would be you for most of those cases a bad thing. Okay. If women voting results mo progressively in those instances not being able to to to occur because of
00:33:41
Jim Bobrestrictive gun laws, is that a good thing or a bad thing? This is just too reductive to say. It's not it's it's not reductive because the stats show it.
00:33:49
Jim BobWomen vote in favor tilted highly to uh higher constraint of liberty and uh especially regarding guns. They're like guns scary. Yeah. But so do like black
00:34:01
Kyla (NotSoErudite)men at a higher level and black women and older generations especially this last election also tend to like vote in this direction. So when you're like reducing these voting things which are very multi if you could just let me finish my thoughts. No the disparity with men and
00:34:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)men is not the same as women though. If you don't mind just let me finish my thoughts. What you're doing though is you're taking these extremely complicated, multifaceted policy things and you're reducing it down to man verse women when that's not really the lens by
00:34:27
Jim Bobwhich you should be analyzing things like self-defense law. Why not? Be- because it it's not helpful in any Why are you saying it's multifaceted if I
00:34:35
Jim Bobcan demonstrate statistically that women collectively voting vote toward uh gun legislation and other things that restrict your ability to defend yourself. and men. Even if you found men
00:34:47
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that didn't, the disparity between men and women is is is astounding as far as those laws. Sure, but that would then be presupposing that the women voting that way are specifically because they want to reduce your self-defense things where
00:35:00
Jim BobNo, it's their nature. I'm not blaming them for nature to reduce self-defense. No, no, no. Their nature is to uh vote and act in uh defense, in nurturing, and protect in protection kind of thing.
00:35:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Sure. Most women would actually probably be like most feminists, for example, I think the gun is like the greatest feminist equalizer ever, right? A lot of feminists are very pro- self-defense for pretty obvious reasons. Yeah. But the
00:35:25
Jim Bobthat doesn't deal with the fact that when women vote, even if I granted you those awesome women, they're not voting for self-defense. They're typically going to be voting for things like abortion policy and like why is it that
00:35:36
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they vote in favor of policies that restrict your ability to for self-defense? They don't vote in favor of policies that would restrict your self-defense. They typically vote for Democrat uh politicians who embody their
00:35:48
Jim Bobvalues more at a broad caretaking. Okay. So, got it. So, women vote not based on particular things that they look into, but a general feeling of the person who's talking embodies their value. That's even a worse argument for I don't
00:36:01
Kyla (NotSoErudite)know why you're stronging me like that. Like, what is it they're discerning from the what's an embodiment? Well, when you look at a politician and you're deciding to vote for them, most people are like one to three main things
00:36:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)that they vote for, it's usually for women, some level of women's rights, economy, and housing crisis, especially in the last election, right? And so, when they're looking at a politician that they're deciding on, those are typically the top three things that they're deciding to vote for. They're
00:36:27
Jim Bobnot like going down the line and being like, "Man, does this person let me do self-defense or not?" In fact, a lot of women will rail against Democrats when they try to I know, but this is really bizarre because the narrative from women is that men are dangerous and they, you
00:36:39
Jim Bobknow, you got to watch out for men. And I agree, men are dangerous. You should watch out for men. But the thing is, it's bizarre to have a narrative that uh primarily is uh women need to be be
00:36:50
Jim Bobprotected, men are dangerous, uh we got to look at this assault stuff. Uh people are essayed all the time. And then to prioritize voting based on what? Like if
00:37:01
Jim Bobthe outcome of voting is that not only you as a woman can't prop legally use a gun, but also men can't use a gun to even protect you properly. What are they
00:37:12
Jim Bobprioritizing above that? Uh things like housing crisis and economy. That's what women voted for. I thought feminist I thought feminism sorted that out.
00:37:23
Jim BobWhat? When when has feminism had always economic policy? Your argument for feminism being good is based on uh
00:37:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the economy. Yeah, but that's not the same thing as women voting for the like using feminism as an economic analysis. Let's do it this way. What do you think
00:37:42
Jim Bobfrom your view of feminism is the most important issue given that you have a vote? The most the single most like the top the top of the top. Sorry, can you say that again? What's the most
00:37:55
Kyla (NotSoErudite)important thing from your feminist view? Not the one, not the way. I don't feminism is not the main thing that makes me vote. It's usually economic policy and foreign policy. I vote for foreign policy mostly. Foreign policy. Yeah. I care a lot about foreign policy.
00:38:07
Jim BobOkay. Yeah. So like sovereignty. I care a lot about sovereignty. Okay. So if there was something to vote for for feminists, you're going to say vote based on uh foreign policy. Uh I would
00:38:19
Kyla (NotSoErudite)be most for most women, I would say probably feminism shouldn't be your number one priority. I think like the housing crisis and the wealth disparity is a much bigger issue than like cultural patriarchy. And I think you've got like your your your being a gender opportunist. You're fixating on the
00:38:32
Kyla (NotSoErudite)wrong thing. I think feminists voting for like purely feminist stuff um isn't even that common. Again, most women this election voted for uh housing uh economy
00:38:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)and then after that was abortion rights. Okay. So, I guess I'm going to ask you what is there a correct feminist view? No. Feminism is like a a constant moving concept that's developing through
00:38:57
Jim Bobconversation like most philosophical concepts. So if concepts there's no correct concept for feminism meaning that means that there's no correct application for feminism. There's no when you say correct I guess
00:39:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)I'm answering it in like there isn't a perfectly fixed idea of what feminism is because feminism is fundamentally a dialogue like most philosophies. Right. Okay. But dialogues don't uh make
00:39:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)societies run. So like I obviously think my version of feminism is the best version of feminism. But that doesn't mean it like is there any standard that determines your version of feminism is
00:39:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the best or the correct one? I think it's the most uh consistent. I think it leads to the highest level of like opportunity and flourishing for both like men and women but mostly for women.
00:39:45
Jim BobOkay. Yeah. The thing is if you say it's just a concept like premise one is feminism is just a concept premise two it's a dialogue like the follow of those
00:39:57
Jim Bobtwo right if it's just a concept and just a dialogue then when we ask what the application is that means like let's like use an analogy um I design a car
00:40:07
Jim Bobthat's just a concept in the computer and then I go okay it's a concept but it can be turned into reality and so what I'm asking asking you is what is your
00:40:18
Jim Bobconcept of feminism and how is it accurately or appropriately applied to society because if it's just a concept just concepts do we agree
00:40:29
Kyla (NotSoErudite)concepts themselves don't make reality function right yeah I no I totally disagree with that I think like social normative concepts are like the backbone by which zeitgeist emerge like I think
00:40:40
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the way that we view the world is rooted in concepts does a concept act on matter uh through people sort of. Yeah. Like like it depends on what you mean by act on matter, right? Me sitting here
00:40:52
Jim Bobtalking about feminism. Am I acting on matter? Okay. Look, are you a concept or are you a material body? I'm a person. Okay. Are you a material body? Yes. Okay. So, concepts. Do concepts knock
00:41:04
Kyla (NotSoErudite)over cups? Are you familiar with Plato? I'm not I'll just ask you a question. Does a concept knock over a cup? Um, it depends on what you mean by sort
00:41:15
Jim Bobof. No, my hand does, but like the idea can you knock over a cup with a concept? No, it's it's immaterial. Gotcha. So, if concepts immaterial um concepts being that they can't knock
00:41:26
Kyla (NotSoErudite)over a cup, a concept can't actually build society. That I I'm sorry. What's What's democracy? Like concepts democracy is force. No, it's not. Yes,
00:41:37
Kyla (NotSoErudite)it is. Democracy started as a as a political philosophy, right? Con I I don't know. I don't I don't know what you do with philosophy if you think that concepts don't emerge and affect reality. I didn't say concepts don't
00:41:48
Jim Bobhave a relation to reality. I'm making a distinction because you said feminism is just a concept. If it's just a concept, it's a dialogue. It's an action. If it Well, that's what I'm trying to ask you.
00:42:00
Kyla (NotSoErudite)What is the action of feminism? Sure. Just just to be clear because I don't know why you're making all these like weird distinctions. A lot of times what happens and the way that I think that how people create and this is honestly like platonic forms at this point is we
00:42:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)like understand a concept of a thing. So maybe the concept of the thing that you care about is women are being unfair to men and that's a concept just in your mind. But what happens when you hold that belief is that it shapes how you
00:42:26
Jim Bobview the world. It shapes what information that you take in to reinforce that and it shapes how you act. We agree that concepts inform action, but concepts are not actual things that do anything. So that's why
00:42:37
Jim BobI'm asking you if feminism is just a concept. Sure. What's this bridge between the concept and its application? Like for instance, what does it look like for you to apply feminism in your
00:42:50
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ideal Okay, so you just want policies? Anything? Yeah, anything. What does the family look like? Uh probably in North America by and large nuclear uh seems to be the best structure. Uh, I would prefer more intergenerational than what
00:43:02
Kyla (NotSoErudite)we have. I think intergenerational homes tend to be better. Um, but I would also be open to like more commune style living village families. So, a a family a family unit. Are you saying a mother?
00:43:14
Jim BobIs it best for a mother, a father? Uh, by and large or at least two parents that like occupy those types of roles. Okay. So, basically a traditional looking reflective of a traditional Yeah. family. So, that's good for
00:43:26
Kyla (NotSoErudite)society by and large. Yeah. And you're saying from your view that's feminist. Uh I wouldn't say that that's feminist. I would just say that that's like what's good for society. Okay. But if not everything has to be feminism, right?
00:43:37
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Okay. So if that's good for society, is that counterfeminism? Can I actually ask you a question just to see if you understand me? How on my list of like top five ideas and things that I care
00:43:48
Kyla (NotSoErudite)most about? Where do you think feminism falls? Like do you think feminism is like number one? Just take a guess. What do you three? It's not even on my top five. I think it's like not that important. I'll debate with you on it because I'm interested in it. Feminism
00:44:01
Jim Bobis not that important for society. Uh no, because I think we it's done most of what it needed to do. There's little elements left. What did it do? It just it convinced a bunch of chicks to kill their babies or to to delete their babies. Well, some of it did that,
00:44:13
Kyla (NotSoErudite)right? A lot of it did that. Yeah. Abortion obviously, which is like a tragedy, but it also did things like let women have access to the workplace, allow them to access education, allow them to self-determine, allow them to
00:44:24
Kyla (NotSoErudite)own land. Hold on. Women foriet even before to have the vote. You have to let me finish my thoughts. It says is a paddle. Hold on a second. You can't call everything that I say. I didn't say the I didn't say the word paddle once this
00:44:36
Jim Bobwhole time. You literally just said I just said it. Yep. You said every time. I didn't do it every that Sorry, you're right. I'm having flashbacks from our last and Jay's debate. Sorry to interrupt you. I just want to cuz I don't want to forget what you're saying. Is
00:44:48
Jim Bobthat it's actually not true that feminism produced working women. women could work before largely what you think feminism is. Yes. No. This is a this is a major myth. Audience, I want you to
00:45:00
Jim Bobknow this. The feminist always comes in with this story that feminism saved the woman from the home and then they're allowed to work. That wasn't actually the case. Women could work. It just
00:45:11
Jim Bobhappened to be the case that traditional values were the norm. And rightly so that women valued in their society and in their home the position of the mother as one of the most important still today
00:45:23
Jim Bobone of the most important uh uh roles to play for women in society. They just held that belief. They weren't chained not working. They could work. They just chose the value correctly to stay at
00:45:36
Jim Bobhome. that the best thing for society and their family is to raise good children to be present with their children, to uh organize the house, to make the house a small type of organized
00:45:47
Jim Bobgovernment, if you will. And this is what happened. Feminism came in and smeared what motherhood is. It smeared what the role in the family is. It basically poisoned the well and said,
00:45:58
Jim Bob"That's icky. You want liberation. You want freedom." And guess what? It resulted in more debt for women, uh more sexually transmitted diseases for women,
00:46:10
Jim Bobhigher body counts for women, and ultimately the thing that they that what what do you think the biggest leverages for women? What's your what is your biggest leverage point in society? If if
00:46:21
Jim Bobmen's leverage is force, brute force, aggression, what do you think women's leverage is? Uh probably sex. Sex. Can I go back to your narrative though? Can I one more? I promise. I promise I'll let
00:46:33
Jim Bobyou respond. Okay. Sex though largely I know you're you take a very particular unorthodox feminist view but largely if we're generally arguing against
00:46:44
Jim Bobfeminism has feminism perverted and sold women's leverage which is their sex and convince them to completely make it for free as as if that's liberation. I would not
00:46:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)fully uh the sexual revolution I think is like kind of [ __ ] but I I would not fully agree with that statement. Is it empowering for women to o uh to collect body counts? Uh no. Uh can I go back to actually responding to your entire
00:47:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)thing? No. I I don't think this idea of like collecting body counts is good. The issue is that like most women don't think collecting body counts is good. I think it's a very niche. Yes, you deal with a lot of Only Fans models, but that's obviously not the average woman.
00:47:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)You are dealing with a high selection bi. So just to go back to like this narrativizing that you did. So women work. You said women didn't were able to work. They just chose to be in the home. Well, actually women always worked. They
00:47:33
Kyla (NotSoErudite)just did farm labor and also domestic. The main thing is that they never received any ability to convert that work into anything leverable within society like money or ownership. Why
00:47:45
Kyla (NotSoErudite)would they do why would they why would that happen? Because being able to have money and able to like liberate some level of autonomy is like one of the foundations to be able to make a choice. For example, if a woman is in an abusive relationship with a husband who is
00:47:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)harming her and her children back in the 1910s when her farm labor would never translate to any goods and to anything that she can claim as her own, she can never leave that situation. Stay there. Stay there. In this in this situation,
00:48:10
Jim Boblet's say she was liberated and she was working. Do you know who's going to abuse the kids then? The man is still abusing the kids. No, the people who are watching the kids because the mother's not home watching the kids. So it's like you're like you're like you you you set
00:48:22
Jim Bobup No, you set up this hypothetical where if the woman could work then she can set up this like sort of like dowy escape dowy, right? But the thing but no hold on the thing is if the woman's out in the workforce, she's not at home
00:48:35
Kyla (NotSoErudite)getting abused. Jim, you have to engage with my points, right? You have to engage with what I'm saying. That's literally what you said. That's not what I said. And if you keep erecting straw mans of me, then we can't talk. What did you say then? What I said is that what
00:48:46
Kyla (NotSoErudite)happens when in the back in the 1910s era is that they were working women have always been working through all of history just as hard as men just doing more domestic uh agrarian style jobs.
00:48:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)The main thing just as hard as men a lot of times they're working all day taking care of the children and then also like milking the animals, helping plow, uh doing like just as hard as men. Yeah, I would just say it's different work like
00:49:10
Kyla (NotSoErudite)men are in the mines but that doesn't mean Oh, just as hard though. Uh it's more like uh physically destructive on the body. Um but like in in converse women just as risky. I didn't say just
00:49:20
Jim Bobas risky. I'm just asking. No, it's not just as risky. Yeah. Um I don't know why you keep doing these. Well, I'm talking about like well what's the risk and rewards? But I'm asking you to just engage with me. Like just talk to me. Talk to me about my I understand. I'm
00:49:33
Jim Bobtrying to summarize what you're saying. You're saying back in the day women are working on the land and sweating and taking care of the kids and cooking and all these things. But what's the problem with it? Wait. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the problem with it? Well, I said that. Do you not remember? You said the
00:49:45
Kyla (NotSoErudite)problem is in the instance where they're beaten, they they what what's the alternative? I don't understand. Okay. So, the beaten was an example of why it's really important to have something like purchasing power. It's really important to have some level of
00:49:58
Kyla (NotSoErudite)ownership of like goods so that you can like exchange and move and like autonomize within the world. Like the exchange of goods and basic economics is like one of the most fundamental things that bring like peace and freedom
00:50:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)globally. It's very very important to be able to own goods to be able to exchange those goods for other goods and to have some level of choice as a result of that. Women would work and be barred access to ownership of these things.
00:50:22
Jim BobThat sounds like you're arguing for a norm based on an exception. Nope. Yeah, you are. If you're assuming that there's enough women in that scenario who are going to be in a situation that
00:50:32
Jim Bobjustifies that they have some sort of escape plan. Your entire uh foundational argument is this. Women should have purchasing power and be able to have money to do things in the event they
00:50:44
Jim Bobhave to leave their husband or their family. Whereas you're basically presenting one scenario that's and making a rule based on one potential scenario where a woman needs a an escape route. Well, it's it's a decently common
00:50:57
Kyla (NotSoErudite)scenario. That's one of the reasons why it's important for women to have rights. Another one, if we connect it to the vote, one of the reasons why it's so important to give the society the ability to vote is because it transfers
00:51:09
Kyla (NotSoErudite)your autonomy and authority to an elected to an elected individual. And that individual makes choices ideally on your behest. And as a woman, you until you have the right to vote, you don't
00:51:21
SPEAKER_05have any ability to have a say in what policy societies have over historically. Of course you do. Unless you just don't believe in democracy. I will tell you right now why you don't have a say. Oh, can you let me I'll tell you why. Hold on. Jim, you don't let me finish. No,
00:51:34
Jim Bobyou said a lot there. One at a time. No, one one time. Jim, you interrupted me as I Let's say 40 words per 40 words. Okay. Okay. Let's one cuz cuz then I'll forget what you said and then I won't be able to respond to you. Okay. So, you just
00:51:47
Jim Bobsaid, do you want to You could just write down rather than Women need voting because they need to be able to influence policy and have a say in the society, right? That's one of the values of voting. Yeah. Okay. So, women have a
00:51:59
Jim Bobsay in the society, but women aren't obligated to uphold and to def to defend the policies with force. Uh, nobody is obligated to. Got it. So, nobody is
00:52:11
Jim Bobobligated. So, you're arguing for women to be able to vote and from the from the allowance from the allowance of men. Men permit you to vote. Nope. Yes, they do.
00:52:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)Not really. Yes, they do. No. small group of able but well first of all again you're going down the enforcement arm are you a police officer a military no so you are reliant on the same men
00:52:33
Kyla (NotSoErudite)they're men that doesn't matter they're not you don't get to steal the val you don't get to turn to women as a man who's not in any of these enforcement arguments how am I taking giving you the right how am I taking valor because what
00:52:44
Kyla (NotSoErudite)you're doing is you're looking at policemen and soldiers who are doing a duty to their nation by protecting Well no you said it's not a duty well once they sign you contradicted I'm not it's not a contradiction. When Hold on, do
00:52:56
Kyla (NotSoErudite)not interrupt me this time. When men or women join the police force, they take a whole bunch of promises and solidarities. Just like when a doctor joins the doctor force, they have to take a whole bunch like the hypocratus
00:53:08
Kyla (NotSoErudite)hold on oath. And so the idea of duty, yes, once you enroll in a job voluntarily and agree to both the responsibilities and the benefits and the power and the wage that is conferred
00:53:18
Jim Bobby that, now you have duties. Police officers have a duty to enforce the law. What? When you vote, what's your duty? To be an informed voter. You're you're Okay, cool. So, Hakua, who's not an
00:53:31
Jim Bobinformed voter, could vote cuz she's a woman, right? Yep. Okay. You just said she has a duty to be an informed voter. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that like you would take away Hold on. If you if is there any consequence to not
00:53:41
Kyla (NotSoErudite)fulfilling your duty in your worldview? Uh like not being an informed citizen. Yeah. Hakua votes. Yeah. You get a situation where the politicians increasingly don't represent you and then you [ __ ] and whine about how bad the politicians are, but they're bad
00:53:54
Jim Bobbecause you're never actually voting for who you want. Okay. Would you agree that the act of voting for men collectively, the act of
00:54:03
Jim Bobvoting is an agreement that they're not going to rebel? No. You don't you don't agree with that? Uh just for men. Well, no. I'm saying men first. I'm saying
00:54:14
Jim Bobwhen a when a bunch of men vote and they say I'm going to vote, they're basically they're they're signing something and and checking something off that might become policy and they're outsourcing
00:54:26
Jim Bobthe force. In my case, I'm not the force, right? When I vote, I outsource the force, right? Stolen valor, right? To police. Got it. No, police and the and the military and everyone else,
00:54:35
Jim Bobright? Sure. When I outsource the force by voting, I'm basically agreeing with other men in my position that we're not going to take up arms and rebel. We're
00:54:46
Jim Bobnot going to start a civil war. It's an agreement. Correct. Uh this is like not the way that is the basis for voting. Representation, right? If you don't have representation and your your your
00:54:58
Jim Bobbasically representatives don't represent you and and they get all wonky, right? That's why there's a militia. That's why men can take up arms and actually have a revolutionary fight, right? This is historical, right? What
00:55:11
Kyla (NotSoErudite)the problem? Yes. The problem, hold on. No, the whole I get to respond now. 40 for 40, right? The issue that you're doing here is you're again you're creating this like simplified narrative to work to like your argument when
00:55:22
Kyla (NotSoErudite)things are not simple. It is simple. It is that simple. The when you vote, all you're saying is that I'm willing to participate to be a citizen, whatever that looks like. Got you. But participating as a citizen is an
00:55:33
Jim Bobagreement to not rebel, right? Uh I suppose more like to break the rules. It's not about not No, not just breaking the rules. Taking over the government with force with other men. It's an agreement, right? Sure. Great. That's
00:55:47
Jim Boball I needed from you. So when men collectively vote and they say, "I'm forfeiting my my ability to get collectivized with other men." Hold on a second. You're literally hold You can vote and then be dissatisfied with the
00:56:00
Jim Bobgovernment and Rebecca. forfeiting it. That's right. Why are you saying this? No, because you can do that at any time. Men can do that at any time. Look, hold on a second. Hold on a second. If I vote and I feel disenfranchised or lied to, I
00:56:12
Jim Bobcould still do two things, right? I could either rebel or I could vote again the next time, right? Mhm. There's two choices. Every I'm saying every time you vote, you're choosing not to do violence. I'm not saying you can't do
00:56:25
Kyla (NotSoErudite)violence the next time around. I'm saying in that instance, you're choosing to vote instead of violence. Right. Uh again, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Let me run the argument for 40 line. I I I can't because all you're doing is
00:56:38
Kyla (NotSoErudite)building this like really strong. I am building a strong argument against you. You're trying to stop it. You're trying to block it. Well, this is the issue, right? We get to like dialogue means we both get to talk. The line of argument. If I don't get to respond to anything
00:56:50
SPEAKER_05and you just keep like prattling, I'm you can I can leave and you can talk to stall. Go ahead. Do you want to talk to my chair or do you want to talk to me? try to stall the line of argument. Okay. The issue is that when you're
00:57:01
Kyla (NotSoErudite)simplifying this to like voting is just a agreement not to rebel is a massive reduction of what voting is. Doesn't make it not true. It it what it actually does is it it bakes a halftruth into something to do. What's the true part?
00:57:14
Kyla (NotSoErudite)The true part is that to some degree you're conferring your authority as an individual to the to like the broader society. But the issue is that it's not like every single time you're saying I'm not doing violence. Uh no. Every time
00:57:25
Jim Bobyou vote, whether you know it or not, you're making an agreement that you're not going to rebel. And you're actually trusting that the government with its force and its processes and its legislative branch and and all of that
00:57:37
Jim Bobis going to do its thing in favor of your vote. When it doesn't, you either vote again or you throw a fit and sometimes that starts a war, right? That's hap that happens in history. The
00:57:47
Jim Bobreason I'm asking you to accept this this premise is because if it's the case even from a reduced view that men when they vote forfeit their collective
00:57:59
Jim Bobpotential to overthrow the government or even try. I'm asking you what do women forfeit when they vote? The same thing. No, they don't. Yes, they do. Women can't overthrow a government. Of course they can. No, they can't. Tell me one