Roger Avary (Film Director) - Brian's Fav Film?! Working w/ Quentin Tarantino? | Whatever Podcast #7

Brian introduces Roger Avary and his filmography. Roger launches into an extended exploration of what constitutes a 'movie' vs. 'film,' specifically the distinction between photochemical celluloid and digital video. He explains the persistence-of-vision mechanism of film projection (beta cycles activating active brain participation) versus digital's alpha-cycle relaxation effect. Uses analogy of oil paint vs. watercolor. Argues the shift to digital video has changed not just aesthetics but the physiological experience of cinema. Cites MIT study on the difference.

Deep discussion on how digital video changed filmmaking: video village on set, colorists, directors giving direction mid-take, shooting into the sun for lens flares to fake depth. Roger laments the loss of 'capturing lightning in a bottle' — the cost-per-frame tension of film that created energy on set. Discusses David Fincher deleting takes, the change in actor preparation. Also discusses benefits of digital (long takes, letting actors find truth through exhaustion). References Kubrick's technique of wearing actors down. Notes that Roger Deakins and others have shifted to digital. References films shot on film: Rules of Attraction, Killing Zoe, The Rules of the Game, Brother Sun Sister Moon.

Roger discusses how streaming transformed cinema economics: from a hit-driven theatrical model to a subscription/formula-based model where movies 'drift downstream' on Netflix with no accountability. The home video division always ran studios; physical media gave curators power. Streaming removed the curator's role. Hollywood accounting explained — money almost never reaches filmmakers. Beowulf made $99M but Roger and Neil Gaiman's profit participation triggered at $100M — film was pulled from theaters before crossing the threshold. Discussion of MPA (formerly MPAA) dropping 'America' from name. Streaming as a model that makes mid-budget films impossible.

Extended discussion of making The Rules of Attraction (2002). Roger wrote the script on spec. Lion's Gate (Lionsgate) bought it after American Psycho success. Budget was $10M; Roger cut it to $4M in real time at the studio meeting to keep it in Los Angeles. Fought to shoot in LA (not Canada) using 'Film California First' program — shot on state/county property to get fire and police paid for. Location: Rancho Los Amigos (old mental hospital in Downey) discovered through friend Don Coscarelli (Bubba Ho-Tep). Tara Reid cast initially, then dropped out during a location scout (car accident in New Jersey). Shannon Sossamon cast same day — was a DJ/model, not an actress. James Van Der Beek cast over James Franco. Jessica Biel also in the film. Shooting during 9/11 — crew was watching the towers fall at craft service. Shannon couldn't scream for the bathtub suicide scene; Roger and Shannon cried together in an adjacent room, then walked in and Shannon pulled the actress out of the tub — unplanned. Roger's influences: Jean Renoir's Rules of the Game (La Règle du Jeu) as template — film as mirror to debaucherous society on the edge of catastrophe.

Roger explains his thesis that Rules of Attraction is based on Jean Renoir's Rules of the Game (La Règle du Jeu, 1939), which itself skewered the debaucherous upper class on the eve of WWII. Renoir's film was destroyed, burned, censored; elements were preserved by Nazi record-keepers and rediscovered (Roger says around 1986). Rules of Attraction received similar hostility from American critics post-9/11 ('irony is dead'). The film was embraced in Europe and Japan. Producer Greg Shapiro initially said 'there's no war now' — then 9/11 happened during filming.

Jessica Biel pulled a knife at dinner to prove she could be mean. James Franco was auditioning for Bateman but was holding out for Spider-Man. James Van Der Beek won Roger over in one second by removing his sunglasses. Casting sessions with Shannon Sossamon, who came to all castings and became Roger's partner in the process. Casting director Rick Montgomery (also did Green Book). Because no movies were shooting in LA during strike preparations, Roger had access to the best crew. TV actors (Biel, Van Der Beek, Ian Somerhalder) were 'robots' who knew how to hit marks but needed to be broken free. Shannon was a natural talent who burned out fast — truth on take 1-2. The George Michael 'Faith' scene: Roger had Russell Sams (cast after he kicked Roger in the audition) do an impromptu strip tease on a bed; Ian Somerhalder walked by in a bathrobe and jumped in. Roger wrote George Michael a letter; George let them use the song for free. Fred Savage (actually Thomas Ian Nicholas) drove 2 hours to be spit on by Van Der Beek. Ron Jeremy called to bring adult performers comfortable being naked to the 'Dress to Get Screwed' party. Jesse Heyman (world's most famous extra) got his start there. Paul Williams appeared in the hospital scene.

Roger describes his history with Tarantino, starting at Video Outtakes video store in Redondo Beach (from ~1978). He grew up in a beach/punk community in Manhattan Beach, worked at the store with a community of film-obsessed staff including Lance (owner), Jerry, Steph, Roland. Tarantino arrived as a customer, annoyed Roger at first, was then hired. They became immediate close friends and collaborators. Roger introduced Tarantino to certain films; Tarantino showed Roger Filipino action films, blaxploitation movies, etc. The store was like a 'chat room' where people hung out for hours discussing movies. Roger bought the laser discs when Video Archives closed; Tarantino bought all the VHS tapes plus Eddie Brandt's tape collection. Tarantino set up the Video Archives shelves in William Friedkin's old house in LA — this is where they record the Video Archives Podcast. They have a PAL-capable TV and VCR to watch foreign tapes.

Roger describes how the Video Archives Podcast works: Tarantino has a stack of films he's been watching (often obscure or actor-focused retrospectives). They watch 3-5 films in a day at Tarantino's house, identify which ones they can speak to, then reconvene to record. Producer Gala sources films (often on VHS, sometimes hard to find). The show is audio-only because Tarantino wants to be comfortable/camera-free. They're discussing introducing video elements. Was previously on SiriusXM but went independent to Patreon for creative freedom (SiriusXM wanted only blockbusters like Jaws and Godfather).

In response to a live chat question about 'where is the next Hollywood,' Roger says Hollywood as an ecosystem is effectively dead — the hit-driven model no longer exists, you can make films anywhere (Atlanta, Toronto, Louisiana which gives 50% cash rebates). Describes the remaining industry as 'five large corporations' that are now streaming companies (Apple, Amazon). Encourages aspiring filmmakers to find what they love and go toward it, wherever they are. Notes that 'one person shows' are coming with AI tools.

A live chat question asks about AI short films and Sam Altman's Sora. Roger says he's mostly 'amused' by AI. Praises the 'Door Brothers' AI filmmakers for 'Lies Wide Shut' and 'Truffles' — calls it 'punk rock,' the right spirit for AI. Notes that AI directors face the same problem as music video/commercial directors: difficulty cutting between separate shots in a cohesive narrative.

Roger briefly discusses Silent Hill (2006), directed by Christophe Gans with Roger as screenwriter. He and Gans decided to shoot on film when in the real world ('Kansas') and digital when in the darkness of Silent Hill — a deliberate aesthetic choice matching the thematic content. This was conscious in the middle of the film/digital transition period.

Brian shows the Pulp Fiction Wikipedia page: it credits Tarantino as writer, with Roger listed only as 'Story.' Roger explains: he had been developing the script from the beginning — it started as a series of short films; his segment was 'Pandemonium Reigned' (the Butch/boxer segment, Bruce Willis). Tarantino's segment was Reservoir Dogs. Tarantino called Roger during post-production of Killing Zoe and asked to restructure credits so he'd have authorship. Roger agreed — he didn't care about ownership, cared about making the best film. Same dynamic on Natural Born Killers: Roger wrote the 'brothers hun' scene for Tarantino; Oliver Stone loved it. Credits controversy is overblown. The cooling between them wasn't about credit — it was the business machine that grew around Tarantino after Pulp Fiction's success ($100M+, Academy Awards). They reconciled during the pandemic after Tarantino called Roger.

Roger speaks openly about a DUI-related car accident in which someone died. He served prison time. The experience was 'an atom bomb on my life.' He describes 'kneeling on the asphalt in the dark and begging for life.' Every morning he thinks about the person who died and what he can do to honor life going forward. The experience stripped away ego and changed his perspective — the squabbles of youth, ownership of credits, none of it matters. He became grateful for simple existence. Believes it led to his reconciliation with Tarantino and his renewed purpose. Doesn't regret speaking openly about it on the Bret Easton Ellis podcast which prompted Tarantino to call him.

Roger owns the rights to Glamorama (Bret Easton Ellis). Stopped developing it during pandemic ('nobody needs this mirror right now'). Now feels the timing is right again — we're living inside Glamorama. Has a Salvador Dali biopic script with Al Pacino, Adrien Brody, and Russell Brand attached at various points; wants to shoot it on film but can't make it happen. Directed Leu-men (French-language, based on Jean Cocteau one-woman play, shot in Paris, stars Elsa Zilberstein, produced by Gala Avary) — film is unreleased because the Jean Cocteau Foundation pulled the rights after Pedro Almodóvar also expressed interest and made a short with Tilda Swinton. Also directed Lucky Day (released).

Brian asks about the '7 pin' worn by Lauren throughout the film. Roger reveals the movie is filled with a 'Hermetic code': everything is numerological, the music is palindromic (plays differently forwards and backwards), the movie was released in 2002 (palindromic year), aspect ratios and music compositions contain hidden meanings. Roger worked with composer Andy Milburn to create music that is palindromic at the phoneme level. Roger doesn't want to reveal the full code ('it's a half scoop'). Says the best films hide their secrets.

Brian thanks Roger and wraps up the show. Roger plugs the Video Archives Podcast at patreon.com/videoarchives and avery.com. Brian invites Roger to come on a Dating Talk episode; Roger says he'd want to bring his daughter Gala. Roger mentions Jesse Heyman (world's most famous extra) and Ron Jeremy extras at the Rules of Attraction 'Dress to Get Screwed' party. Roger is leaving the next day for Brazil. Brian announces the next episode (Dating Talk, Sunday).